Homozygous Black Pony Stallions - New Photos! - Now with video added 9-3-10

[quicksilverponies]

I recently purchased another Welsh pony stallion prospect that happened to be black - I chose him because of pedigree, movement and conformation - the color was also a nice bonus. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=BARKMEADOW+BLACK+DIAMOND&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=I had him color tested out of curiousity and was pleased to discover that he is homozygous for the black gene. I am just wondering how many other black pony stallions out there are also homozygous. Anybody know of any? Thanks!

[sfstable]

Popeye, standing at Hill Top Farms is homozygous black.

http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stallion_popeye.html

[Merle]

Correct me if I am wrong! But I believe Popeye is a bay so he does not outwardly appear black since he carries the agouti gene which modifies the black to brown on the body. So although he is homozygous black, he would also potentially pass on agouti and not produce solid black foals.

I assume the OP has a stallion that appears to be solid black (not bay) and therefore would not carry agouti and as such be able to pass on strictly black foals.

[quicksilverponies]

Thanks for posting sfstable. I didn't realize that Popeye was homozygous black, although as Merle stated, he does appear to be dark bay in his photos. My colt is Sec. B Welsh and is not bay, but black. I know of a few other black Welsh stallions out there, but am just curious as to whether any others are homozygous.

[ise@ssl]

I own Popeye - he is black bay and he did test homozygous black - that means he will not throw chestnut foals. The test results indicate that he will throw black, bay or brown. Not all homozygous blacks throw black all the time. I won't go into the "letter" details on this but you have to do the Aouti test to determine if the stallion will always throw black foals. You should also know that the base color of a horse does not always relate to being homozygous black.

We have had 2 black bay foals by him - both out of chestnut mares, a bay foal out of a very light chestnut mare and a true black foal out of a chestnut mare.

Depending on the Agouti test restults of your stallion he may not throw black foals all the time.

[quicksilverponies]

Popeye is lovely and so accomplished - I am sure you are very happy with him. And yes, I know that my colt may not always throw black foals. I have done a bit of color genetic studying myself and know the possibilities. But thanks for pointing that out as I am sure many people don't realize them. My colt does not carry the agouti gene and will only produce a bay if bred to a mare that carries the gene. Obviously all mares will not be color tested so there are a few options out there. The only sure thing is that he will not produce a chestnut or a palomino:).

[ise@ssl]

I had never intended to own a Pony stallion but on one of my trips to Germany to ride, I did go shopping for pony mares and saw Popeye as a 2 yo and had to have him. The Team at Hilltop have done a spectacular job of continuing his training and showing. We were thrilled that he is the "coverboy" for the USEF Pony Hand Book this year. One of our 2009 foals - Popgun is a mini-me of Popeye - same coloration and conformation/movement but he will finish medium.

Good luck with your boy - the ponies are such fun.

[rideagoldenpony]

Melinda, I think you may have a fairly rare bird there. I don't know of many black Section B's at all, and I don't know of any that are homozygous for black.

That's not to say that there might not be one out there, but if there is, I don't know about it!

Now, how about some pictures of this boy!

[quicksilverponies]

Thanks for the info Gretchen. I haven't heard of any others either, but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't out there, so I thought I would ask around. I am in the process of completing his paperwork and had to get a duplicate passport for his dam. It just arrived today and I was interested to see that her sire was different than I had been told. I am quite pleased with his overall pedigree. Here is the updated version. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/barkmeadow+black+diamond
There are a few very scruffy winter yearling photos of him on my website. I surely look forward to taking some new ones in the Spring when he sheds out and fill out some more:).

[rideagoldenpony]

Thanks for the info Gretchen. I haven't heard of any others either, but that certainly doesn't mean they aren't out there, so I thought I would ask around. I am in the process of completing his paperwork and had to get a duplicate passport for his dam. It just arrived today and I was interested to see that her sire was different than I had been told. I am quite pleased with his overall pedigree. Here is the updated version. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/barkmeadow+black+diamond
There are a few very scruffy winter yearling photos of him on my website. I surely look forward to taking some new ones in the Spring when he sheds out and fill out some more:).

That's a really interesting old pedigree.

I just went and looked at his pictures. Mine are furry too. ;) He looks very nice and I LOVE his tiny little Welsh head!

I'm so ready for spring when we can get these furry little beasts shed out and get proper photos! I look at Marmaduke every day just itching for a short coat and a pulled mane!

[VirginiaBred]

Crossgates Larasan section B (see the thread herehttp://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4635056#post4635056 ) is black, but I have no idea if he is Homozgous for the black gene or not.

[quicksilverponies]

Unfortunately, Larasan can not be homozygous for the black gene since his sire is a chestnut.

[VirginiaBred]

Unfortunately, Larasan can not be homozygous for the black gene since his sire is a chestnut.

I knew that too (and adore his sire line). The color makes absolutely zero difference to me anyway since it's ALL about the pedigree. The fact that he is black is cool however! :yes:

[Ladybug Hill]

I am confused. His pedigree on his webpage lists both a different SIRE and DAM than on the pedigree page.

Was this pony sold to you with a completely different pedigree? How does this work?

He is cute. Will look forward to pics in the spring!

[quicksilverponies]

LOL - it was a mess. I was told that the mare's sire was different than reality. She is imported, *Pendock Hickory, but the paperwork was lost. I have been trying to get it all in order. I just received a new passport for her from the UK yesterday and discovered the mistake. So I am trying to fix it on the website and allbred pedigree. Just need a bit of time to get it right. Here is the actual pedigree of this colt.http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=BARKMEADOW+BLACK+DIAMOND&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Not sure if the changes will show up yet. His sire is *Pendock Sir Percy, a dam sibling to *Pendock Masterpiece.

[JB]

I won't go into the "letter" details on this but you have to do the Aouti test to determine if the stallion will always throw black foals.
The Agouti status of a homo-black (EE) horse only shows the potential for the horse to produce a non-black, but still black-based, foal. He could be EEaa (black, homozygous black) and still not produce a black foal if the mare is AA. Of course, if he's EEAA then he'll always produce some variation of bay. EEAa can produce bay or black, and variants, depending on the other parent.

Depending on the Agouti test restults of your stallion he may not throw black foals all the time.
And depending on the mare's status :)

[ise@ssl]

Color in horses is so complex - even my Vet told me that before I even started to test some of ours. Popeye's only true black foal so far is out of a chestnut mare.

We did have him tested for Agouti - have to pull out that form to see what it said.

[JB]

It's actually not that complex once you understand what the base colors are (red, black) and what the modifiers are :)

Black trumps red, Agouti modifies black pigment presentation. Cream dilutes, as do champagne and dun.

ise - given that Popeye has sired a true black foal, and he himself is not black, you know his Agouti status is Aa. If it were AA he could never sire a black foal. From his pictures I'd just about bet my life he's a dark seal brown. That means he's actually Ata.

[Showpony]

What about Pengwyn? I have heard he hasn't (or can't?) have chestnut foals. Not sure if that means he is Homozgous for the black gene or not. All the genetic specifics makes my head hurt so I don't really follow it.

[quicksilverponies]

Interesting. I wonder if he could be homozygous then? Does anyone know if both sire and dam were black? I think the dam was, but not sure about his sire. Very possible he is homozygous as well. Is he registered as Sec. A? or B? I think the more you study the color genetics, the more interesting it becomes.

[Summerwood]

I think Pengwyn is an A. There is a photo of him floating around. I will try to find it.

[Summerwood]

Here it is:

http://www.stargleamfarm.com/stallions.html

and another with a bunch of offspring:

http://www.fenwayfarm.net/Pengwyn.html

[JB]

I have heard he hasn't (or can't?) have chestnut foals. Not sure if that means he is Homozgous for the black gene or not.

Since black is dominant over red, then yes, if a horse is homozygous black (EE) then he can neverever produce a red-based foal, no matter what the other horse's color is.

But if a stallion *hasn't* yet produced a red-based foal, that doesn't mean he's homozygous black unless his offspring are in the high double digits where statistics come into play. Even then, it *could* be just the rare luck of the draw that he's Ee and the e hasn't combined correctly yet to produce a red-based foal. Not likely though if offspring #s are approaching 100 :)

EquineReproductions had, IIRC, 49 colts in a row from her mares (maybe fillies, but you get the point) :) Statistics would put that chance very low.

[JB]

I think Pengwyn is an A. There is a photo of him floating around. I will try to find it.
If by "A" you mean he carries the Agouti gene, I could buy that. In one picture he looks very dark seal brown, but in others he looks black. He's a tough one.

But if he's indeed dark brown, that doesn't mean he's not also homozygous black :)

[VirginiaBred]

What about Pengwyn? I have heard he hasn't (or can't?) have chestnut foals. Not sure if that means he is Homozgous for the black gene or not. All the genetic specifics makes my head hurt so I don't really follow it.

We owned Pengwyn and he has had chestnut foals.

[Summerwood]

By "A" I meant section A, sorry. I know nothing of his color genetics! :D

[JB]

LOL!!

[quicksilverponies]

Just turned 2 in May...

[quicksilverponies]

Here is a bit of video we shot just a week ago. He is now 2 yrs old and growing up nicely:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd1ehFqgIyo