Hey, breeders! What about this idea...

[pwynnnorman]

Recently, COTH published a commentary--and then letters to the editor--about the breeding division. Even more recently, Gary Baker's comments included stuff about voting and structuring hunters. Yesterday, I got an education from someone about a Canadian showing scheme. And today, I got to thinking about the difference between awards based on points and those based on head-to-head competition. Meanwhile, all along, I've been debating on where to show: local or HITs...and why.

Those things, and someone's post who praised a gorgeous pony filly who should be competing for national recognition but isn't (probably due to her owner's limited finances), got me to wondering whether a local-regional-national scheme would help expand the hunter breeding division.

What if...

Winning a class (or championship) at a local show qualified you to compete at a regional or "semi-regional" show, which qualified you to compete at a national, head-to-head competition? Would that help breeders get their babies ready for and into the ring without the pressure (and expense) of rated shows, enabling them to develop a system (and sort out the funds) to be comfortable competing at the next "level" (the regional or semi-regional level), which in turn might further encourage winners to compete at a rated-show "regional" championship (maybe based on east and west?), and finally a national championship?

USHJA has an "affiliate" program which has the goal of involving local shows, I think. And if other breeders are like me, hemming and hawing about whether a baby is ready to be seen in public or not, wouldn't being able to just dip ones' toes into the water first be more encouraging? And wouldn't being able to keep trying to qualify be good for those local and semi-regional/regional shows (which I'd assume would be shows which already were offering breeding classes--or would be readily willing to start doing so)?

If you could do the HB thing in a step-by-step way that didn't commit you to a certain course of action AND if you didn't have to compete with others' deep pockets in a points race, would you be more likely to enter HB classes? If all you needed to do to qualify for the nationals, similar to Pony Finals, was win a championship at the, say, semi-regional level (maybe that level would be open to anyone, regardless of local level showing???), would you consider aiming for a national championship of this kind? Do you think something like this--which, to me, is like a cross between the Pony Finals and the IHF/IJF/YEH but without the sire nominations--would help the division grow?

[horsechick]

I for one, think it's a very intriguing idea. Where we live the shows are few and far between, which puts "points" qualifying way outside the realm of feasability. I like the idea, that if my baby does well at the "one" breeding show near me, it might be able to go to a bigger show with more competition while still getting some recognition.

Great food for thought...

[pintopiaffe]

It certainly would get ME, who breeds for dressage but gets the occasional hunter moving foal out of the oven, to be *able* to even present them.

I'm going to dip a toe into hunters this year with my stallion, but only Arab-breed shows... but we'll be starting with local round-and-round to see if it even works before venturing to rated... so again, for someone like me, poor & rural, if he did well at the bigger local shows, and that helped to lead to bigger ponds, well, I could probably get sucked in pretty easily. ;)

[NorthHillFarm]

I am in agreement with Horsechick...
I would love to be able to get out there and do some in-hand stuff with my babies.
I campaigned in my area last year to get more in-hand options available (there are NO rated horse shows around here that offer HB classes) but did not have much success other than to get a few more local shows adding "halter" classes. Great experience for my youngsters but does very little to promote my new breeding program. If I wanted to get into HB classes I'd have to drive at LEAST 4 hours...not easily doable for me with a husband running his family's dairy farm and not able to go and a 2 y.o. son that I'd have to take along.
While I've never done any HB classes and would have a lot to learn before being ready to take my youngins in the ring, I would LOVE to have the opportunity.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

As newbies to the HB realm,
we would be very interested in doing it this way, ie, starting regionally, then moving up. We are in Florida, so probably a reasonably active area. This way, we can exhibit ourselves at the regional level and see whether we want to take the next step and invest in sending our young ones to a more nationally-recognized handler or not.

[dilligaff2]

It does work quite well up here. I am sure that there are some bumps along the way and I don't know all the nitty gritty details but it does stop the point chasing.

[alliekat]

I for one, think it's a very intriguing idea. Where we live the shows are few and far between, which puts "points" qualifying way outside the realm of feasability. I like the idea, that if my baby does well at the "one" breeding show near me, it might be able to go to a bigger show with more competition while still getting some recognition.

Great food for thought...

I agree. I have moved to NC and finding anything that offers HB has been difficult. I would love to have more options available to us!!

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks for the feedback on the idea. I am going to send it off to someone on the HB committee--with a copy to Bill Moroney. If you think of anything else--pro or con--that I should include in the letter, or in the future, to see if they'll consider this, please post again. It seems to me that there's been a lot of criticism lately, but not many ideas--at least not many being floated publicly. Maybe we can "respond" to it with something more constructive.

(I wonder if I should write Gary Baker. He's a show manager, too, isn't he? I wonder if something like this would be seen as competing with recognized shows. I actually think it could "channel" more competitors into recognized showing.)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Wasn't there a recent thread about beginning a regional HB series? Maybe about 6? months ago?

[pwynnnorman]

I did a search, Darlyn. Was it the one about some regional final being cancelled? I didn't read through the whole thread (it was Aug. of last year), but it sounded like it was associated with a futurity.

I guess what I'm thinking is that if you could start off with something nearby and easy to get to and sort-of a trial run to kinda confirm that you have something worth showing beyond local level--y'know how you can get a feeling for it, either directly from folks/friends or via your own eye when you size up what you have against what else is in the ring--it'd just be more encouraging. For example, handlers vs. diy. You'd get to know the ropes without the initial stress--because there'd be another show next week or next month--and so could your babies. So you'd be able to make the right decisions and feel good about participating because you'd have more confidence in doing so. For me, it's not having a system. I need a few shows to work out the kinks--making sure the baby loads well, the grooming and clipping and braiding shi.., I mean "stuff" (:winkgrin:), handling techniques, trying out other handlers, best ways to stand the baby up, trotting out, etc., etc., etc. For those who do it all the time, this stuff is no biggie, but for those who don't, it's a whole new set of issues to deal with.

Here in Ocala, there are a slew of local shows, many with small breeding divisions. So, as a hypothetical example, If "I" thought I just might have a baby worth hitting the big-time with, "I" might start it by taking it to a couple of those venues. If it didn't pin and nobody exactly said it should have, "I" would leave it home thereafter. But if it pinned and/or turned heads sufficiently, "I" might be encouraged to keep going. (I'm using that as an example because, frankly, I think I know conformation and the standards well enough to make my own decision, but I've seen entries at Devon that just didn't belong there--and I remember thinking it'd be helpful for some to go more step-by-step at it so they might tune up their eye for what is competitive.)

Y'see, I have a feeling, sometimes, that when big shots put their minds to encouraging us little guys, they often don't really have much empathy--sympathy, yes; but if you aren't living it, you might not understand very well what drives "us" and what hinders "us." I suspect that one thing that hinders the lone breeder is lack of confidence (and maybe a little suspicion that the deck is stacked against them). Having a progressively more competitive "system" for HB might sort-of "ease" newbies who aren't connected to the old hats into the idea. (I'm reminded of the "hostility tent" concept I once heard about in conjunction with some breed show or another--it was supposed to be a "hospitality tent," but everyone was so involved in their own little cliques that if you didn't have one, you just wandered around getting cold stares.)

In short, I think there's a psychology to showing in hand that needs to be dealt with as well as a "dive in the deep end or not at all" kind of set up that also needs some "softening." If you could qualify for a regional show by placing 1st or 2nd at any local show, you'd go to that bigger show with a bit more confidence and skill, and maybe you'd see some of the same folks you showed against locally and not feel so out of it all--something which happens rarely if you just jump right into the bigger shows. You'd meet those old buddies because they'd be travelling the same route as you.

Then, if you won at the bigger shows--just one win, one class or one division (depending on how the numbers would play out--something I have no way of guestimating), qualifying your baby for the big time national final at some big time show somewhere, imagine the incentive you'd have to either keep going or, like with ponies who have qualified for the pony finals by winning a championship at an A show, you could brag about the beastie being qualified and maybe even sell it to someone who wanted to go to the finals. Lots of positive possibilities as I see it.

And the thing is, the shows already exist, right? Take Florida, for example. Lots of those local shows offering breeding divisions. And HITS offers, too, so HITS would be a regional show and a win/championship at HITS would qualify you for, oh, say, Upperville--a special National Championship class at Upperville, that is (or a Regional Championship class there, equivalent to something simlar on the west coast). THEN perhaps later in the season, somewhere in the middle of the country at some big show--what's that series outside of Chicago, for example?--would be the head-to-head for the national championship in which all regional show winners, including the regional champions themselves, would compete for a national championship.

Or not. Maybe just having two regional championships would be sufficient? (Although my guess is that most would prefer a head-to-head national championship.) I suppose working out WHEN would be an issue, too. I remember how hard it was to get a baby ready for Devon when I lived in upstate New York. I dunno, I dunno. Just thinkin' (out loud, but mainly to myself)! Oh, and then, too, such a one-win to qualify set up would also discourage the point chasing that some folks have grumbled about for how it forces babies to travel so much so young.

Then again, maybe those who can do the point chase wouldn't like this so much, especially if it eliminated the chase and opened the National Champsionship up to more participants. After all, if there's an advantage to being able to show, show, show, removing that advantage may not sit too well with some.

[PineTreeFarm]

Pwynn
Define a 'local' show please. If the show is truly a USEF rated show with a 'local' rating then no points won at those shows count for anything USEF related.
So they can not be used to qualify for a HITS type show.
Same thing if you are discussing Unrated shows. They can't count for anything USEF rated.

However, HITS does support the M&S league and holds an unrated annual finals show. Some of the finals at that show are non USEF recognized classes but held at a USEF rated show. Is this the type of thing you are proposing?

[pwynnnorman]

Nope! I was thinking far, far less formal--no points at all. Just like Pony Finals, which is what lit my fire about this.

I think it is way cool the way kids can qualify for a national championship by just championing at a single show. Why not expand that idea and figure out (this is fuzzy to me, too) some kind of brag-worthy "qualification" for winning at ANY local show (say you only had to send in or have on hand that show's prize list with some kind of signed form from the show manager).

I'm not sure I've worked this part out well. Like, why bother with local shows if you can go straight to regional ones, like HITS? I'd LIKE for there to be an incentive to start locally, though, because I'm proposing this for growth, which means my goal is attract more participants, not just the ones who already have the wherewithall to trot over to HITS with their babies.

Maybe there could be some kind of intermediate award at the regional level based on qualifying at the local level first? Argh! I don't knooooooow!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I tried to search, but I am not finding the thread. It was maybe after Devon, or Warrenton ??, and I think started due to a bit of frustration. There was a lot of good responses, and I believe it was actually being put in motion. The thread was started by someone involved with HB, maybe Silver Bells? not sure. I tried to search that too, and came up with nothing.

[alliekat]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232445
Is this the one?

[PineTreeFarm]

Nope! I was thinking far, far less formal--no points at all. Just like Pony Finals, which is what lit my fire about this.

I think it is way cool the way kids can qualify for a national championship by just championing at a single show. Why not expand that idea and figure out (this is fuzzy to me, too) some kind of brag-worthy "qualification" for winning at ANY local show (say you only had to send in or have on hand that show's prize list with some kind of signed form from the show manager).


Yes, they qualify by winning a Ch at a single show but that show has to be an A or AA rated show. Anything won at other than an A or AA doesn't count. 'Local' USEF shows in particular are non starters.
At an AA rated show Ch and Res count to qualify, at an A show just champion.
Once again, define a 'local' show please.

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232445
Is this the one?

That's the one! Thanks!

[M. O'Connor]

Sounds like you are on to something.

PTF, I think this idea is not so far along that you need to nitpick about "how local is local" or whether the OP was referring to "Local Member Shows," as per USEF, or what points count/don't count in already up and running USEF divisions.

This sounds like something that could operate intstead of or in addition to the present HB system of competition. And sounds like the OP is suggesting that preliminary classes be held at that elusive "grass roots" level, which would qualify those who make the cut to go on to higher levels, and so on. Not a bad idea.

[showjumpers66]

I think HDIF is trying to do this to some extent. The whole hunter breeding thing is incredibly unfair. You can get ranked highly just by attending a large number of shows and there are some locations where there many hunter breeding classes offered allowing this to be done very easily and at minimal expense, while the rest of us must travel hours and hours away with babies to risk the entries "not making" and the class being cancelled. If I am reading it correctly, HDIF plans to offer classes at 50 events yearly and to spread them equally across 5 regions. Those events can be C, B, or A shows.

[VirginiaBred]

The National Hunter Pony Breeding Series does this (of sorts) already. It's first year the shows covered five states.

[Mel0309]

Wynn,

Are you sure HITS has the breeding classes? I didn't see it in the schedule and they never have before. RMI (held at the HITS grounds in the spring) does hold the breeding classes - which are pretty well attended.

I think what you propose might be a good idea but I tell you I've looked into showing babies at the local shows and with all the fees they seem to charge it costs almost as much to show at the rated shows. The one around me would cost me about $40 for just doing the one class and for me not worth it when I can do the rated show for $100/ with two judges/points. Just my experience with the local shows.

I know you get the BNH in Virginia and Maryland but really in Florida there are a bunch of DIY breeders/owners. I had no problems with politics when I showed at RMI, Jacksonville, Tampa, and Venice.

What I would like is a true hunter breeding clinic with one of the BNH!!! That teaches you the tricks of the trade and handling techniques. But they may not want to divulge their secrets, lol.

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, maybe I was thinking of RMI. Something at Post Time!

What is HDIF, Showjumper66?

PineTree, what program are you referring to? It sounds interesting. What does it lead to?

And whoever mentioned the "grassroots" reference, yeah, that's what was in my head, but the word itself wasn't! :yes: My thoughts have been going along the lines of some of the discussion about how weak the division is getting--combined with all the talk about growing the sport and involving the grassroots. I think that's a big challenge, in fact: Getting folks to take the leap from local to rated. What makes the expense of rated worth it to them? MY answer was "a chance to win a national championship with something you bred" (rather than bought, perhaps?).

I was trying to think about the issue from a different perspective. That's what troubles me, perhaps the most: that old "walk a mile in another (wo)man's shoes" issue. Has anyone been involved in a discussion about this sort of thing--like on a committee or something? How was it addressed? Does anyone represent "us" who aren't into it year in and year out? I mean, for example, how would "we" even know where to show (or even who to show under and who to avoid--something I hear more and more about with a pony on the circuit now, and something I NEVER thought about before!).

One of the ways you learn is by interacting with others. It's also one of the ways you find encouragement. Where is that process in HB? After al, HB is not like having a horse showing under saddle--in those circumstances, you have a rider (or are the rider) and a trainer and other folks using the same trainer, etc., etc.). See what I mean? HB tends to isolate the participant, especially the participant who enters and exits the sport as his or her fortunes see fit. So how does it do what being in a trainer's barn does: foster interaction and encouragement (and education)? I think thinking about it and trying to foster it--like that clinic someone also mentioned--might help grow the sport, too.

Disclaimer: The one time I decided to go whole hard at HB, ages ago, I didn't even try to "get it." I just hired Ray Francis and dropped the filly off. But that's exactly what I mean: no way would I have been able to stay at it by sending things to a pro every time. What about breeders who, one year here or there, might want to dip their toes in the water and see if the temperature's right? Right now, HB seems like such a commitment--and something of a rather "cold" dip, too.

[showjumpers66]

http://www.ushja.org/content/programs/hdif.aspx

[pwynnnorman]

HDIF: Stallion nominations! NOooooooooo.

That's not going to get the grassroots involved, IMO. Or isn't it thought that someone who hasn't paid a hefty stud fee for a nominated stallion can possibly produce something worth aiming at a national championship?

Walk a mile, I say. Walk a mile...

[showjumpers66]

I am not keen on adding another stallion nomination that's for sure, but I do like that they are basing it on the number of mare's bred rather than the stud fee and I do feel that they have some very good ideas. We try to help out the mare owners by offering significant early pay discounts and free collections, so it is really tough when it is based on the actual stud fee. As it is, we have about $6000 a year for just Apiro to registries, associations, and nominations ... it is insane! Then the registires and associations all have their hand out for donated stud services for the auctions. Donate to a couple of auctions and we basically have the value of 12 discounted breedings flushed down the toilet. I think the program developers are aware of the problem and understand that they need to be sure the program is a value for breeders.

[pwynnnorman]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=232445
Is this the one? (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232445)
That's the one! Thanks!

That's kinda what I'm thinking, except it's not linked to something bigger and there'd still be no championship concept based on something other than point chasing. If all you want is to give your baby some miles and local recognition, that's fine. But what if you'd like to aim a bit higher? Maybe you stand a stallion or want to sell the baby well? The old thread didn't present many options for sort-of "progressing" with the process (and in doing so, supporting the HB divisions offered by that governing body which made their existance--including even the local-level judges--possible).

Ugh. I always have this urge to involve more people! I'm a PR purist at heart, I guess.

Showjumper66, that was an interesting run down. I think it's good to have options, including that one. It does look like there's a real effort to make it of value to stallion and mare/youngstock owners alike. For me, though--and I think I may represent a greater majority--it's the nomination, breed, birth, raise, bubblewrap, pray, handle, more bubblewrap, etc., etc. gamble that turns me off of futurities. I want more flexibility--I need more flexibility.