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Rule_Alter
Jan. 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
I am frustrated as heck by this and had to vent somewhere.

I know of a rider who is a professional according to the rules (has a job where she is paid and part of that job is riding horses) who is competing as an amateur. She competed as an ammie all of this year and won year end awards regionally and nationally as an amateur.

(I do not event and I do not live in this rider's region, and I don't know a soul who competed against her, so this has nothing to do with sour grapes about ribbons or placings.)

She has been informed by friends that she is in violation and she reacts with anger and denial. She claims she is no longer riding as part of her job (unlikely, since her family owned business involves her riding horses in their care) and thus plans to compete as an ammie in 2010 - in spite of not waiting the required 1 year to go from pro to ammie, since she doesn't believe she violated the rule to begin with.

This is such an affront to sportsmanship and the spirit in which we all compete. I am disgusted by this person and really wish that I could offer any proof, but short of finding the farm she worked at (difficult for me to do without potentially ruining friendships) and convincing them to cooperate with a USEF investigation, I've done all that I can.

I'm frustrated with the situation and dismayed. I wish that her own friends, who have direct knowledge of the situation and who could offer proof, would stand up to her and report her. I could not be friends with someone who treated a sport I love like dirt.

Blugal
Jan. 21, 2010, 05:56 PM
Why don't you report her? Otherwise, it really is just gossip/sour grapes.

FlightCheck
Jan. 21, 2010, 06:07 PM
If it bothers you enough, report it.

Have the courage of your convictions, don't be a sheeple.

Or forget about it.

Rule_Alter
Jan. 21, 2010, 06:19 PM
Just to clarify, I did report it to USEA, they contacted the rider, and she denied it (or rather, told the USEA she was in compliance with the rule).

I would happily spend the $200 to file an official report, but I have no way of providing proof. It would be my word against the rider's. And in that case, I don't blame the USEF for finding in favor of the rider. They should be innocent until proven guilty.

It is just a frustrating situation.

Flying Hippotamus
Jan. 21, 2010, 07:55 PM
Can you or someone you know have her ride a horse? Then pay by check, for extra proof video the ride.

Trixie
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:07 PM
I hear you. I work a minimum of a 45 hour workweek, so it's really frustrating to have spent a year competing against someone in the ammies only to have them tell me the following year that their job is riding but they get paid "under the table," only in cash so they can compete as an amateur. I too don't have proof nor do I have a spare $200 to report it, but it really annoys the hell out of me when she's competing in a local children/adult class and beating 10 year old kids. It's an offense to sport.

retreadeventer
Jan. 21, 2010, 09:47 PM
I hear you, too, and I'm on the other side. I have one or two little things that keep me from retaining my amateur card so I have given it up to avoid a complaint. But the associations work slowly, and I was still listed as an Amateur for points last year. I feel like an ammy, I ride like an ammy but technically, since they changed the $2,500 rule, I don't comply. I work a full time job doing a non horsey thing. In all honesty a lot of people who do a lot more than me are still amateurs. It is a poor rule and badly enforced. They say if the website reveals any promotion that would be a violation - does this person's family horse business have a website and is she on it?

NMK
Jan. 22, 2010, 08:27 AM
It's not that hard to get the status changed, I just did it myself. Fax a letter to the USEF and call the USEA.

Nancy

purplnurpl
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:55 AM
ditto to what everyone has said.

to change from pro to am you have to send in 50 bucks and a few documents. I was in the process of doing it back in 2008 and in the middle of the process something came up and I had to stay pro.
I lost the 50 bucks too. lol. sucked.
I looked at it as my annual donation. :lol:

To change from am to pro all do you is check the box on your registration for the year (both USEF and USEA).

Atigirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:14 AM
I am sure this has been discussed before, but I really don't understand the ammy/pro rules. What if someone is a working student (no paid) for a BNT and they "get" to ride some really nice upper level or experienced horses as part of their non paid job. This gives them an advantage over someone else. And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.

Janet
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:20 AM
. And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.

Amateur status has NOTHING to do with riding/training ability.

tarheelmd07
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:25 AM
To the OP, I feel your pain. There's someone in my area who has lovely horses and does very well with them - but also runs a boarding/training business out of her family farm. She seems like a very nice girl - and I had always just sort of assumed she was a pro - but was surprised to see her name on the year-end ammy leaderboards! - and is still listed as an ammy for 2010. If she continues to show in the ammy divisions this season, and I can scrape up the $200, I'd consider reporting it...it's nothing personal, but I just don't think it's fair! I'm another one of those adult riders who works a more-than-full-time non-horsey job to support my riding habit...

she's got a website for her business, so it wouldn't be too hard to prove ;)

Rescue_Rider9
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:06 PM
I am sure this has been discussed before, but I really don't understand the ammy/pro rules. What if someone is a working student (no paid) for a BNT and they "get" to ride some really nice upper level or experienced horses as part of their non paid job. This gives them an advantage over someone else. And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.

There are some super great ammies out there who could kick a lot of the Pro's butts! And those Ammies still have to compete against the other not so talented ammies.. is that fair? Yep. Deal with it or find a new sport. Im pretty content about being called pro even though I am 19 and have yet to take my horse to a recognized competition. I like getting paid to work with some horses and give beginner lessons and I like some of the looks I get when I tell people i am a pro (of course I then explain exactly what that means and they just laugh at me!)

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:18 PM
To the OP -
Hearing you're not an eventer makes me want to double check - you do understand that many events do not offer Ammy divisions, and our Rider divisions are not limited to amateurs??.

Around me most events separate out by Open, Horse, and Rider divisions. Pros may be eligible for all of these divisions - a very good dressage rider who has never evented could legally enter BNR. An eventer who ran Intermediate years ago but hasn't gone over Novice in years could enter Novice Rider - even if she is completely a pro, coaching Training level riders...

Our rules for who is amateur and who is pro are the same as in other english disciplines, but our divisions are different, so that *could* be causing confusion here. Or you could be seeing someone cheat, for sure!

SevenDogs
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:27 PM
To the OP -
Hearing you're not an eventer makes me want to double check - you do understand that many events do not offer Ammy divisions, and our Rider divisions are not limited to amateurs??.

Around me most events separate out by Open, Horse, and Rider divisions. Pros may be eligible for all of these divisions - a very good dressage rider who has never evented could legally enter BNR. An eventer who ran Intermediate years ago but hasn't gone over Novice in years could enter Novice Rider - even if she is completely a pro, coaching Training level riders...

Our rules for who is amateur and who is pro are the same as in other english disciplines, but our divisions are different, so that *could* be causing confusion here. Or you could be seeing someone cheat, for sure!

I agree with this whole heartedly. As a lower level "Rider" entrant for many years, I couldn't care less about "amateur" status as defined by USEF. I am clearly an ammie by definition, but I like the "Rider/Horse/Open" class organization that Eventing uses much better (actually, these split classes are *fairly* new -- it used to be one class per level....period).

It is a clear, fairly impartial way of dividing classes so people with similar qualifications compete against each other. That being said, I am always prepared that there may be only ONE class per level and it could be me against the pros on green horses or, even worse, kids on ponies. I *might* beat a pro on a really green horse but those kids on ponies kick my a$$ every single time! But, I would have no problem riding against pros (or those darn kids on ponies) because eventing really is about competing against yourself and frankly, winning a ribbon because better competitors are restricted from competing against me isn't all that rewarding.

Amateur status has really only become a part of eventing with the introduction of the AEC's and year end awards, which are such a small part of the sport. I actually hate going over to straight dressage and having to worry about "Amateur Cards" or avidavits. Eventing would be ruined to me if we all ran around accusing each other of violating ammy rules like what happens in other disciplines.

Let's just ride and have some fun instead! :) ... and you kids on those darling little ponies -- look out .... this might just be my year!!

Flying Hippotamus
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:48 PM
The OP did say she won amateur year end awards so amateur is significant. And you do know that even if you ride in an open division they figure it out so you can get amateur points. I agree that the rule stinks. Wouldn't it be nice if you could somehow magically base it on skill. but it's not. So right now all we have is the fairness issue. Someone at my barn wanted me to ride her horse because she was away-sure. Then she wanted to give me 25 bucks, being the rule stickler that I am I said no, twouldn't be fair. So there you have it, take the 25 I'm a pro, since not I'm an ammy. Still rode the horse didn't change my skill level at all. The girl the OP is calling into question gets both and that bugs me as well.

Donkey
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:57 PM
I think that if it is a big a deal as you state her fellow competitors will sort it out in short order. She is out competing and winning - not hiding under a rock after all. I'd stop worrying about it, it doesn't affect you and it doesn't involve you. After all you've done as much as you can.

Winning puts the spot light on you, the truth can't hide for long.

SevenDogs
Jan. 22, 2010, 04:57 PM
I guess I just find "year end awards" (particularly at the lower levels where this would most likely be an issue) a pretty insignificant part of the sport. Nice... yes, but not worth running around accusing others of violating ammy rules.

I frankly wish eventing never even opened the whole "Amateur" can of worms to begin with. Again, it only came about because of the AEC's and a desire to create more "awards", which, in my opinion, were not needed.

secretariat
Jan. 22, 2010, 05:03 PM
I still think the coolest thing about eventing is that, on any given weekend, I can go ride against David or Karen or Kim or Amy or whomever. Obviously, I don't have a snowball's chance in Hades of beating them, but that's kinda like pitching against Babe Ruth (showing my age). Wow. And I don't like the amateur distinctions. I'm a pro, and can't ride worth shit.

subk
Jan. 22, 2010, 05:15 PM
There's someone in my area who has lovely horses and does very well with them - but also runs a boarding/training business out of her family farm.
Just to clarify, accepting remuneration for boarding services does not effect your amateur status. The training is the problem.

From GR808: (The amateur rule)
2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified: a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses. b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.

Wheel Whip
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:21 PM
What happens if an event rider is also a paid huntsman,whipper-in or does ranch or mounted police work? Yes, those professions involve horses, but the horse is not the focus of the profession. I think the ammy/pro separation is a crock and usually hurts the younger riders who don't have fat trust funds.

Koniucha
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:30 PM
If you are exercising for money would that make someone a pro as well?

Janet
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
If you are exercising for money would that make someone a pro as well?
yes

CapturinYerRide
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:24 PM
If you are exercising for money would that make someone a pro as well?
Technically, yes, that person loses amateur status.

Click HERE (http://www.usef.org//documents/ruleBook/2009/03-general%20rules.pdf) and go to page 197 for the whole explanation of what makes one lose amateur status.

Janet
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:42 PM
Also here
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/confused-about-amateur-rules
and
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/rule%E2%80%94chapter-13-gr1306-amateur-status
and
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/protesting-amateur-status-cliffsnotes-guide

Wheel Whip
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:53 PM
More proof of the "Huntafacation" of eventing! I guess my kid will have to proudly ride as a "pro" for committing the sin of earning a living at something she is good at.

LLDM
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:24 PM
More proof of the "Huntafacation" of eventing! I guess my kid will have to proudly ride as a "pro" for committing the sin of earning a living at something she is good at.

I think it is partly because it all falls under the USEF umbrella now. The Ami rule/distinction is stupid. I don't think any other country has such a thing. Elsewhere riders and horses are separated by experience levels. Even John Long agrees, if you ask him. But for some strange reason, this country is stuck on it. Go figure.

SCFarm

Ritazza
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:51 PM
Another unclear question here. Something I'm never quite clear on - can't find quite where it states this anywhere in the rules, and now pertains directly to me - does the manager of a boarding barn who does NOT teach lessons, train, or ride other people's horses still qualify as an ammy? No riding involved, just making sure everybody is fed and happy.

gold2012
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:19 AM
Ritazza, yes, unfortunately, you would be a pro. I am pretty sure anyway. I don't understand why they don't do something about this. A few months ago, I went to a show, and watched the "amateur" jumper classic. It was interesting to me how many of the "amateurs" were people I know for a fact are married to someone who sells horses for other's and helps ride them. Meanwhile, if you are under 18 you are an amateur, regardless if you train other people's horses. I think, as someone mentioned, earlier, it should be based on what you have done, and how much you have earned in prize money. Europe is based this way, and so is American Eventing. Except in the AEC's, which also seems stupid. A training rider is a trainer rider. If they haven't done above that, then they can't go in it. I saw a rider who had never done above Novice, have to enter Open Novice, against Phillip Dutton, because she gives up/down lessons. So I disagree with the AEC's on a whole now. I didn't realize that was the case till I went.

It would be so much easier for it to just simply be divided by levels....if you ride Preliminary, you are a PR, if you've riden levle 5 jumpers, you can't go into level 2 unless it is open...It would make EVERYONE's life a little easiser.

I had hoped when David O'Connor was elected president, he would institute that change, but that just didn't happen.

Sigh. I just think Pro is such a wide range of ability levels, and lets face it, An up/down instructor is not going to be able to compete with the likes of the Pro's on the most part. Not to say there aren't a few, but most aren't. They are penalized because they scrape some money together every year to help em out, and then they can't even go win money, cause they ride against all the people who really are the pro's. This is the one subject just makes my blood boil.

canterlope
Jan. 23, 2010, 08:36 AM
I know a lot of riders don't think the amateur rules are important or meaningful to the sport of Eventing. I would agree that they really don't impact us all that much, but this doesn't mean that we should circumvent them. They are in the GR section of the USEF rule book which means they apply to our sport. If we don't like this, we should work to either get rid of them completely or add an exemption for our sport. Until then, though, not only should we adhere to them, we also need to be prepared to notify the USEF when we witness others failing to comply with them.

gottagrey
Jan. 23, 2010, 08:50 AM
Another unclear question here. Something I'm never quite clear on - can't find quite where it states this anywhere in the rules, and now pertains directly to me - does the manager of a boarding barn who does NOT teach lessons, train, or ride other people's horses still qualify as an ammy? No riding involved, just making sure everybody is fed and happy.

that's a good question. In regards the OP's vent - it's possible that the rider is indeed an amateur under the rules if she is working/riding for her parents on their horses ONLY. There are many amateurs out there - Robin Sweeley for example - Grand Prix Level Rider who's parents have a breeding operation and she competes on horses either she or her parents own. I don't believe they board horses. Where I board, owner of barn boards horses - she rides and competes only her horses - doesn't teach lessons therefore she is an amateur .

And in eventing, as mentioned, the amateur rule does not come into play that much of the time.

Unfortunately, the Amateur rule was written and revised because of so many dishonest people. The sad thing is the bulk of people are honest and follow the rule(s) - the people who are inclined to push the limits/break rules (any rules) will always find a way to do so - cheaters cheat, and the rest of us suffer because of them.

ThirdCharm
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:01 AM
A boarding barn manager who does not ride other people's horses is NOT a pro.

Pretty much the only way you are considered a pro is if you ride or teach and you or your family make money off of it in some fashion. If your family owns a boarding stable and you coach boarders, even if they don't pay YOU, someone in your family is getting money related to the situation (your coaching is a perk of boarding, and they are paying your family for board).

Jennifer

Tiffani B
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:14 AM
To the OP, I feel your pain. There's someone in my area who has lovely horses and does very well with them - but also runs a boarding/training business out of her family farm. She seems like a very nice girl - and I had always just sort of assumed she was a pro - but was surprised to see her name on the year-end ammy leaderboards! - and is still listed as an ammy for 2010. If she continues to show in the ammy divisions this season, and I can scrape up the $200, I'd consider reporting it...it's nothing personal, but I just don't think it's fair! I'm another one of those adult riders who works a more-than-full-time non-horsey job to support my riding habit...

she's got a website for her business, so it wouldn't be too hard to prove ;)

FYI, if the information if publicly available or already in the USEF's hands (as in entires where an "amateur" signed as "trainer" for a client, an advertisement, a website, etc) you can file your claim ANONYMOUSLY with USEF and do not have to pay the $200 fee. Send them a letter or email with your proof and they will do the rest.

barnrat
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:19 AM
Its a sportsmanship issue! We have a similar situation in our area, but most people choose to ignore it. Some adult riders get irritated with respect to the area championships and year end awards, but most choose to ignore it. I have heard of this happening in dressage too. There is a dressage judge in our area that competes as an ammie. I am not sure exactly what their rules are, but it makes the DQs HOT!!!

Ritazza
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:25 AM
A boarding barn manager who does not ride other people's horses is NOT a pro.

Oh thank god! I was getting worried.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:48 AM
Judges who don't teach/train etc are ammies. That is, being a judge does not make you a pro. Ditto for being a TD, or a show organizer...

WakeRider
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:02 AM
if you look at the 2009 USEA Leaderboard for Ammies final results you will see that over half of those riders are not ammies, and either do horses for a living, teach lessons or have sponsors, looking especially at preliminary and above.

I believe its an integrity/sportsmanship issue.

tarheelmd07
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:06 AM
I believe its an integrity/sportsmanship issue.

I'm with you on that one!

CapturinYerRide
Jan. 23, 2010, 11:14 AM
I know you guys are used to me just taking your pictures at horse trials, but in my spare time I am very involved in running local HJ shows. It seems I get involved in these issues almost quarterly, so I have to know.. On the HJ side, for better or worse, they are normally very knowledgeable about the amateur rules. ALL of the concerns in this thread are addressed in the rules, and Janet's post above links to some great articles that help explain and clarify it all. We on the eventing side have not had to pay too much attention to any of this until only recently.

Ritazza's question answered: GR1307 Section 2.e. (Third Charm is right!)

Judges, TDs, Officials: GR1307 Section 2.b. (Officiating does not in and of itself make one lose amateur status.)

As for the OP's original concern, you don't really give us enough info to help you. I find that most of these issues can be handled at a more local level, by consulting a local HJ organization about it before getting the USEF involved. You might try that first, and if they can't get the facts straight enough to either help you go forward to the USEF or convince you that there wasn't a problem in the first place...... As the HJ folks are infinitely more embroiled in all of this, I'm not sure why you posted it over here in the Eventing forum!

Janet
Jan. 23, 2010, 01:04 PM
FYI, if the information if publicly available or already in the USEF's hands (as in entires where an "amateur" signed as "trainer" for a client, an advertisement, a website, etc) you can file your claim ANONYMOUSLY with USEF and do not have to pay the $200 fee. Send them a letter or email with your proof and they will do the rest.

Signing an entry blank as "trainer" does not invalidate your amateur statuis. It just means you are the one responsible for making decisions on the care and feeding of the horse.

And thus the one "assumed to be responsible" if a drug test comes back positive.

Signing a "coach", however, WOULD jeopardize your amateur status.

Janet
Jan. 23, 2010, 01:06 PM
Ritazza, yes, unfortunately, you would be a pro. I am pretty sure anyway.

NOT.

CapturinYerRide
Jan. 23, 2010, 01:46 PM
Signing an entry blank as "trainer" does not invalidate your amateur statuis
Are you sure about this? Or do you mean that this applies only to eventing somehow?

I'm pretty sure there is no distinction here between "trainer" and "coach." At any HJ show I know of, if you sign someone's entry form as a trainer, and then are subsequently entered as the trainer in the HS online show software, you won't be allowed to show from that point onward in the Adult Amateur division or in any other division as an Amateur.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:06 PM
Are you sure about this? Or do you mean that this applies only to eventing somehow?

I'm pretty sure there is no distinction here between "trainer" and "coach." At any HJ show I know of, if you sign someone's entry form as a trainer, and then are subsequently entered as the trainer in the HS online show software, you won't be allowed to show from that point onward in the Adult Amateur division or in any other division as an Amateur.

It depends on the circumstances. An Owner can sign as trainer for their own horse and for minors a parent is supposed to be the signer as Trainer.
As the owner of the horse I can sign as Trainer no matter who is showing the horse.

Yes, there is a difference between Trainer and Coach.
Coach implies Pro status and Trainer may or may not be a Pro.
It's in the General rules so it applies to all discplines unless there is a division rule specific to the situation involved.

GR108 Coach.
For purposes of these rules, a coach is defined as any adult or adults who receives remuneration for having or sharing the responsibility for instructing, teaching, schooling, or advising a rider, driver, handler or vaulter in equestrian skills. See also GR906.4 and GR908.


GR146 Trainer.
1. Any adult, or adults who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody or performance of a horse.
2. Said person must sign the entry blank of any Licensed Competition whether said person be an owner, rider, agent and/or coach as well as trainer.
3. Where a minor exhibitor has no trainer, a parent or guardian must sign and assume responsibility of trainer.
4. The name of the trainer must be designated as such on the entry blank. See also GR404.

CapturinYerRide
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:39 PM
PineTreeFarm, thanks for the answer, and also for pointing at specific sections of the rules. It just goes to show how words can get used interchangeably, but in the rules they'll mean different things..

In my region I do know that anyone chasing points as an Amateur, even in non-USEF PSJ shows, they take care not to be on anyone's entry forms listed as a trainer, all so that there are no questions generated for barn-aisle gossip. We had a new rider show up at a schooling show who entered her horse's owner as the trainer, and it caused a bit of an uproar for about a day or so afterwards.

I know how ridiculous this all sounds to Eventers. Both of my kids are eventers, and I spend a lot of time at horse trials for sure, but I got involved in the HJ side as a volunteer, so I had some " larnin' " to do. What is striking is how much stuff that is normal in Eventing, say to just be taking a twenty here and there for doing some simple exercising, will get you in trouble in the HJ side after you turn 18.

kwilhide
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:53 PM
So, if you are under 18 you can collect money for excercise rides or to ride at shows and still be considered an amateur??

Thames Pirate
Jan. 23, 2010, 03:07 PM
I liked the old "Restricted" divisions. RN meant neither horse nor rider had competed above Training, IIRC. Frankly, I'd have liked to see it as "never competed above N"--that puts more emphasis on skill than on money issues. I can have all the money in the world, but if I lack talent or I lack the drive to do well or the time to put in the miles, I'm no better off than the talented waitress who scrapes together a few clinics and does 2 HT/year on her track reject.

It's a much simpler distinction: Open=anybody, Rider=any horse, Rider hasn't competed above 1 level up (and limit how often--maybe more than 2-3 times?), Horse=any rider, horse hasn't competed more than 1 level up (again--no more than 3 times?), Restricted=neither has competed above that level or above that level more than 2-3 times.

With this distinction it really does put people in categories depending on ability, not money. If DOC wants to take Custom Made out and tool around a Training course, he can--in the open division. If I ride him I'm in the Rider division, and if he rides my horse he's in the Horse division. My mare and I would be eligible for the Restricted division. There's some leeway so that I can move up to Prelim at the end of a season and run one or two, then start the next season out at Training without having to be in the Open division if I don't want to.

Restricteds were never popular because it implied that you didn't belong at that level, for some reason. I have never competed Prelim, nor has my horse. We're not ready for it yet, but we belong in the Training division. Sure, we pull rails, and sure, we have crummy dressage days, and every once in a while a XC fence intimidates me. That's why we don't move up. But we're safe, comfortable, and marginally competitive. Why is there any shame in that? If there were a "Restricted" AEC division it might give more credence to the division. There are people who qualify for AECs early in the year, move up, spend almost a year at the next level, then bump down and place well at AECs. A restricted division would allow for people who qualified but aren't quite at the next level to be competitive there, as well.

Just some random thoughts. It makes more sense than dividing by age (there are juniors who ride circles around me and there are juniors who are kids on ponies at their first horse show) or by whether they make money by exercising friends' horses, office work, or exotic dancing.

subk
Jan. 23, 2010, 03:12 PM
Edited to change to most updated version of the Rule.

The rule talks specifically about "accepting remuneration". You can teach, coach, ride, sell horses all for other people and IF you don't accept any payment then you can still be an amateur. So I can't see how signing anything saying you are a "trainer" or "coach" can affect your status UNLESS you are being paid to do so.

Here is the whole dang rule. I've included paragraphs and excluded exceptions not pertaining to eventers to make it much easier to read:

GR1306
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional. Exception: In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to compete as amateurs from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22. See DR119.3. In the Reining Division, amateur status will be determined per Reining Division Non Pro Conditions; see amateur status RN105. (For professionals wishing to be re-classified as amateurs, see GR1308.2a):

a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing, training, schooling or conducting clinics or seminars.

b. Accepts remuneration for giving riding or driving lessons, lessons in showmanship, instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).

c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.

d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article (including but not limited to clothing, product, equipment, etc.) to be sold.

e. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes. Prize money may be accepted by amateur riders in Dressage.

f. Rides, drives or shows, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. (A family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer).

g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows any horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity. (A family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer).

h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR1306.2d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a member of his/her family controls.

i. Advertising professional services such as training or giving lessons by way of business cards, print ads, or internet.

j. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.

k. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.

2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified:

a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.

b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.

c. Accepting reimbursement for any expenses directly related to the horse (i.e. farrier/vet bills, entries) however, does not include travel, hotel, room and board or equipment.

d. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note: accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered remuneration.) Prize money won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class (other than equitation or showmanship) is not considered remuneration.

e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified.

f. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her respective, accredited college program, and who has never held professional status, can accept reimbursement for expenses without profit.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 23, 2010, 03:56 PM
So, if you are under 18 you can collect money for excercise rides or to ride at shows and still be considered an amateur??

You can collect the $$ but you are not an Amateur till you are no longer a Junior ( under 18)

purplnurpl
Jan. 23, 2010, 03:59 PM
would have been nice if the USEA adopted a points chart rather than pro/am status.

I know plenty of Amateurs the need to get the heck out of the restricted divisions. It's nice to win every HT for 3 years at one level...
time to move up or compete in Open.

A point system would have been nice.

ex: after one horse and rider accumulate X amount of points at Training level they are required to enter in the Open division. If you have more than X amount of points then you compete in the OPEN division at the AECs. Lower than X amount of points you compete in the RESTRICTED division.
:yes:

That is what would really separate the weekend riders from the competitive riders at the AECs and such events.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 23, 2010, 04:11 PM
Here is the whole dang rule. I've included paragraphs and excluded exceptions not pertaining to eventers to make it much easier to read:

GR808 Amateur Status.
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional. ...


The last time the Amateur rules were in GR808 was in 2008

They are now in GR1306 and there are significant differences to the version that you posted.

For example:
Current Rule:
c. Accepting reimbursement for any expenses directly related to the horse (i.e. farrier/vet bills, entries) however, does not include travel,hotel, room and board or equipment.

The verison you are using:
c. Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.

subk
Jan. 23, 2010, 04:18 PM
The last time the Amateur rules were in GR808 was in 2008

They are now in GR1306 and there are significant differences to the version that you posted.

Thanks! I've edited my post to reflect GR1306...

GotSpots
Jan. 23, 2010, 05:09 PM
if you look at the 2009 USEA Leaderboard for Ammies final results you will see that over half of those riders are not ammies, and either do horses for a living, teach lessons or have sponsors, looking especially at preliminary and above.

I believe its an integrity/sportsmanship issue. I doubt it. I think it's FAR more likely a paperwork issue. Wrong button got checked, wrong item got entered. For example, Bruce Davidson was listed on the ammy leaderboard for quite some time early last year. He doesn't think he's an amateur, nor does anyone else. More an accident of the paperwork than anything else, particularly in eventing, where being an amateur doesn't really mean a whole lot in general. Heck, the last time I saw an "amateur" division instead of the FAR more common Blank Rider or Blank Horse division (which are restricted based on experience levels), it was two years ago. Most organizers, particularly in Area II, don't have the division at all.

Janet
Jan. 23, 2010, 05:42 PM
would have been nice if the USEA adopted a points chart rather than pro/am status.

I know plenty of Amateurs the need to get the heck out of the restricted divisions. It's nice to win every HT for 3 years at one level...
time to move up or compete in Open.

A point system would have been nice.

ex: after one horse and rider accumulate X amount of points at Training level they are required to enter in the Open division. If you have more than X amount of points then you compete in the OPEN division at the AECs. Lower than X amount of points you compete in the RESTRICTED division.
:yes:

That is what would really separate the weekend riders from the competitive riders at the AECs and such events.

I am old enough to remember when the (then) USCTA DID have ssuch a system (called the grading system).

It was REALLY BAD ofr horse welfare.

Once a horse got a certain number of points at Prelim and above, it could no longer compete at Training and below. (you could get a special reclassification, but it was a big administrative process, and you had to redo it every year.)

Didn't matter if the horse had a bad experience, and needed to drop down to restore its confidence. Or coming back from a layoff or an injury. Or with a new rider.

Once the horse was "Graded" there were severee restrictions of dropping down a level. And horse that got a number of points at Prelim HAD to move up to Intermediate, regardless of their ability to perform at that level.

I REALLY hope we never go back to ANYTHING like that.

BestHorses
Jan. 23, 2010, 06:00 PM
I remember the grading system. Is that why there used to be more HC rides? I recall at least a few at every show. Choosing to ride HC at BN/N/T when you're riding an experienced upper level horse is good sportsmanship to me!

To the OP - I feel your pain. Every area has a shamateur no one wants to ride against.

SevenDogs
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:13 PM
I doubt it. I think it's FAR more likely a paperwork issue. Wrong button got checked, wrong item got entered. For example, Bruce Davidson was listed on the ammy leaderboard for quite some time early last year. He doesn't think he's an amateur, nor does anyone else. More an accident of the paperwork than anything else, particularly in eventing, where being an amateur doesn't really mean a whole lot in general. Heck, the last time I saw an "amateur" division instead of the FAR more common Blank Rider or Blank Horse division (which are restricted based on experience levels), it was two years ago. Most organizers, particularly in Area II, don't have the division at all.

And this is another reason why I wish we never entered into "Amateur" land in eventing.

How much money is USEA spending chasing paperwork, tracking amateur points, adjusting mixed classes to properly assign points, etc., just so that Amateurs can have their own classes at the AEC's and separate year end awards? As a full fledged "ammie", I wish they would put that money to better use in such things as safety studies, horse health research, improved course design/construction, etc.

I guess I just don't need a chance at being "Senior Amateur Novice Rider, who rides a chestnut horse between 15.3 - 16.1 hands and started riding between the age of 22 - 32 years old, and only rides an average of 4 times per week because she works full time Rider of the Year"! Awards are nice but it seems like it has gotten a bit "over the top" and opened the door to hunterland accusations and gossip. It was actually quite interesting to watch exactly who ran to sign up as a amateur the first year it was offered because they might be able to enter a different class at some shows and have a better chance at a ribbon. I'm actually glad that the amateur classes really haven't caught on at most shows.

Yes, I am sure there are riders that take advantage of the situation by competing as an ammie when they aren't actually qualified to do so. But, eventing has always been a small community and poor sportsmanship on the part of a few who might do such a thing gets noticed pretty quickly. I just hope we don't start acting like the H/J world and have more threads like this.

I said it before and I'll say it again -- let's just have some fun, try to be better riders and let the ribbons fall where they may! I honestly would treasure a lower finish in a mixed class than a first place ribbon in a super restrictive "let's make sure everyone gets a good ribbon" class.

Trixie
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:30 PM
Ritazza, yes, unfortunately, you would be a pro. I am pretty sure anyway.

Incorrect - as long as she never rides or gives any sort of training, she's an ammy. She can ride her OWN horses, or ride horses out of other barns, just not the one that's paying her.


I don't understand why they don't do something about this. A few months ago, I went to a show, and watched the "amateur" jumper classic. It was interesting to me how many of the "amateurs" were people I know for a fact are married to someone who sells horses for other's and helps ride them.

It's perfectly legitimate to be married to a trainer and be an amateur, but not if you're riding horses that the trainer is receiving remuneration on (commissions included).