Did anyone else get Dover catalog offer? [Archive]

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 6, 2003, 08:45 PM

Ah, it doesn't bother me. An educated buyer will know the difference between a PMU foal and one of my carefully bred warmblood foals. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We have tons of these foals/horses floating around here. Many of them are really cute, nice horses with pretty good temperaments (but man, the perch crosses can BUCK! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif). Most of the perch crosses are really pretty when they are two years old, then turn into monstrously heavy horses with thick necks and poor canters by the time they are 5. Most of them are bred to be good western horses or pack horses, and the paints are always fun to look at. There is not a SINGLE warmblood used in any PMU farm breeding program despite the rumours that circle around. The farms are primarily in the heart of Cowboy country. They have about as much interest in a warmblood as I would in a donkey. And most of the sales are packed with people, and very few (if any) foals are not bought. The days of 'by-product' are long gone.

They are great for people on a tight budget. However, that 'cheap' foal costs as much to feed as a quality foal - the purchase price is going to be the cheapest thing about the horse in the end!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

To be quite honest, anyone who is seriously considering buying one would not be looking at my foals anyways. So no, I am not threatened. But I do get annoyed when people try to advertise them as something they are not.

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

ise@ssl

Sep. 7, 2003, 04:42 AM

Really Centerlinefarm?

And educated women all over the world know the difference between ALL of the medications and supplements available to them for menapause?? And educated women all over the world KNOW where premarine comes from and how it's produced and what happens to most of the foals produced?? And educated women all over the world insist that their physicians tell them exactly what their options are??

You have to be crazy to believe that "educated buyers" know the difference in all ways. There are "educated buyers" who purchase mares that will never be approved by certain registries for breeding and breed them and THEN ASK QUESTIONS!!

This is just plain under-cutting the market of legitimate WB breeders and I'm writing DOVER and telling them - no purchases until North American Breeders get equal opportunity to advertise their foals. The PMU farms are NOT non-profit charities they are businesses that MAKE MONEY. So are the drug companies that support them. Let them pay for the videos and adveritising - not a catalogue that is supported by purchases made by LEGITIMATE HORSEPEOPLE!

Summershyne7

Sep. 7, 2003, 01:38 PM

While I do hate what happens to these foals, I do believe that there is a part of the industry that has tended to be overlooked. It is that women going through menopause are not the only ones on premarin. One out of every 2000 women is born with a genetic condition that causes them to be born without ovaries that function. Without Premarin, these women would go through the entirety of their lives looking like they never hit puberty. Either these women go through life shunned, alone, ridiculed, and subject to early osteoporosis, or some innocent foals go to slaughter for a sense of normalcy in quite a few people's lives. This is also not to mention the vast number of young women who must go through hysterectamies. Who is to say which is better?

ise@ssl

Sep. 7, 2003, 03:20 PM

I know there are women who can be born without ovaries but I'd question it's 2 out of 2000! Where did you get these #'s.

The very very few women who either have no ovaries or young women who go through hysterectomies are relatively few compared to the # of women in the world who are given Premarine like Aspirin.

Summershyne7

Sep. 7, 2003, 06:50 PM

my numbers come from the turner's syndrome website. i don't know it off the top of my head, but if you do a search on it, it will come up.

Oakstable

Sep. 7, 2003, 07:35 PM

Hormone replacement therapy has been given a serious black eye -- and Premarin has to be losing a huge share of its market. It will not be needing pregnant mare's urine like it used to.

Breeders of sporthorses do not need to feel threatened by the Premarin babies. They are Heinz 57 and deserve a loving home as much as any baby.

mwalshe

Sep. 7, 2003, 08:18 PM

My friend is a trainer and has bought several PMU babies for her clients. They work very very well for someone looking for a lower-mid level dressage horse that they can also trail ride and jump, or for some of her older junior riders who are learning how to bring along a young horse. In general they have lovely temperments, and are sound and sturdy and quite forgiving and comfortable to ride. I don't think anyone is going to mistake them for top level sport horses though so I wouldn't worry about the competition!

ise@ssl

Sep. 8, 2003, 04:06 AM

Well then if they are so marketable WHY is Dover Saddlery providing free assistance in marketing them?? Really those of us who breed as a business could use this assistance as well.

The PMU farms are BUSINESSes!

Patricia

Sep. 8, 2003, 04:27 AM

It's been interesting to see the responses to my post....you can tell some people are definitely swayed by the `rescue' aspect of the Premarin foals, but as one poster stated, the PMU farms have just gotten smarter about marketing. They had a lot of bad PR in years past over their former practice of either killing foals outright(a mare can go back on the line quicker without a foal at side), or putting those draftX foals in feedlots for slaughter. As was also stated, the new information on the effects of hormone replacement therapy may cause the PMU farms to go out of business to an extent soon, but that doesn't help the small breeders right now. I detected a slight smugness to some of the replies,(thanks a lot for the reference to `Cowboy Country', by the way...could you be any more insulting?) implying that no-one with quality foals need feel threatened by these PMU babies, but that's a load of bunk! There are going to be some pretty nice foals out of the numbers they're producing, and I'm sure there are some people out there who re-sell horses who are picking up lots of these cheap babies and making a heck of a profit selling them to clients later...the cachet of having `rescued' them is just icing on the cake. Sheer numbers are hard to compete with in any business, especially when they're offered at `bargain-basement' prices. My babies aren't expensive by some standards($2500-$4000), but I'm not on either Coast, and shipping ends up being a big factor in sales. If someone can fill a trailer with PMU babies for the same price as one of my better-bred and higher-quality kids, don't tell me they won't take that chance.

SportArab

Sep. 8, 2003, 05:18 AM

It's not like there is no other option than to keep pregnant mares boxed up to collect their urine.

There are synthetic estrogens out there. Of course the marketer of horse estrogens has done its best to keep them off the market. Its a long and interesting story.... at one point, this company actually kept the synthetics from being advertised as hormone replacement therapies equal to premarin because they lacked an estrogen component found ONLY in horse estrogen...

Simply amazing.

SportArab

Pookah

Sep. 8, 2003, 06:16 AM

How many times have we heard that equestrian sport needs to grow the market and we need to have better marketing and get more people involved in the sport? Having a source of quality horses that might be able to compete at low levels at very affordable prices is an important piece of the equation to get more people riding and competing. If people feel they can not afford a horse that they could compete even at the lower levels, they may never consider purchasing a horse or competing. If we have more people buying horses, we will have more people moving up and buying the fancier horses. Isnt it better for everyone involved in horses to increase interest and provide affordable opportunites to buy horses. I think Dover is assisting the industry by offering the tape. Maybe it will prompt people to think about buying a horse or talk to their trainer about purchasing a horse. Maybe they will end up buying a premarin foal, or maybe they will decide they can purchase an older horse that is already broke and going. But it may motivate them to explore their options. Maybe more people will feel they can afford to compete at the lower levels. Its good business sense to have entry level horses available. The next horse that person purchases might be a fancier horse. Statistically, if more people purchase horses, it actually creates more demand for better horses. How many people go out and buy a very, fancy horse the first time out. I think promoting interest in purchasing a horse will help all of the industry in the long run.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

ise@ssl

Sep. 8, 2003, 08:16 AM

Well then why is Dover selecting ONE SEGMENT of the market. Why don't they sponsor Auctions or Sales of horses- then people will see the difference. These Premarin foals are being sold under the banner of "sporthorses" which in our market has a specific meaning. Down the line when people find out the fillies they purchased cannot be approved for "sporthorse" breeding or the horses aren't eligible for year end awards by Breed Registries then they realize they've purchased a GRADE HORSE. Sure some might be nice athletes but they also have NO PEDIGREE - who knows what you are buying.

I feel the person hit it right on the head - the PMU farms are preying on people's sympathy and unloading their "unwanted by-product". Middle men/women load up trailer loads at cheap prices (PMU farms are off the hook for feeding/shots/worming/trimming) and then the foals are advertised as "rescued".

They are NOT rescued they are bought and sold at cheap prices. I called Dover today and told the President of the company that the use of the term "sporthorse" was unfair. His concern was young horses going to slaughter. I can understand that conern. I feel we all have concerns about young or healthy horses of any age going to slaughter - but I can drive an hour from here to the sale in Pennsylvania every week and see hundreds of horses a month heading to slaughter houses in Canada that are healthy, sound and in many cases registered TB's.

That's why I believe breeders have to be responsible about every single animal they put on the ground. That horse (regardless of breeding) must have a viable usefulness to someone or we are all part of the problem. I don't see the same level of responsibility on the part of the PMU farms or the horses they produce would be of a much higher quality. Those few farms that have upgraded their breeding did so after there was much public outcry about this entire business. Conditions have improved but not from pressure from inside the industry - it was from outside the industry. And not from extreme animal rights people - from people who just realized that conditions in the PMU farms were horrible. Are they better - from what we are told yes. But as we post/read here the pregnant mares in the PMU farms are probably already in their stalls strapped up to be collected. And their foals will arrive next spring with a higher probability of becoming someone's burger than future equine partner.

Premarine as an HRT is probably the ONLY alternative for VERY FEW women out of the total being HANDED scripts by their physicians. Most would do well with plant based alternatives or synthetic alternatives and diet changes or a combination of these. It's no secret that the drug companies don't make as much money off of alternatives that can be sold over the counter.

BUT ONE FACT EXISTS in all of this. PLANT BASED & SYNTHETIC ALTERNATIVES WILL NEVER EVER PRODUCE ONE SINGLE YOUNG HORSE THAT WILL END UP HEADING TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE!!! That's something to keep in mind and why women & men in this industry should do their best to make information available on alternatives with respect to HRT for women.

poltroon

Sep. 8, 2003, 11:49 AM

I posted on a different "Off Course" thread, with some similar comments to ise@ssl. I don't have a problem with the way Premarin is produced (no worse than the milk I drink), though I do think it has been overprescribed. But I do look at the "foal rescue" with an increasingly cynical eye.

As Mr. Poltroon said, "Aha! This is how you market baby horses! Tell people to buy 'em by a certain date or we'll eat 'em!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Now of course he was joking. But I think it's a very real factor. Interestingly enough, when I got that mailing from Dover, I did not realize that these were PMU foals. I thought, hmm, some smart group of breeders has gotten together and come up with a marketing promotion with Dover. Cool.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but sadly, in some instances I think you are competing with PMU babies. First, because don't kid yourself that all those foals are poorly bred. They are not bred with the care that yours are, but there are many purebred registered mares being used these days as the PMU breeders have recognized that those foals will be worth more. Second, because a lot of these people are buying foals on impulse - and instead they could be buying YOUR foals on impulse. Those foals are cheap not only because of the Wyeth subsidy but also because of the free marketing provided by a lot of nonprofit orgs.

So, there's no real point in whining about it. Learn from them. They have an organization that is registering and promoting and providing prizes for these babies when they successfully compete. And their organization has made a very good deal with Dover. There's no reason the sport horse organizations can't pay attention and learn from it. Maybe Dover can send out a video of DAD (or some other inspection) and the fine foals there free with certain purchases.

Urban horse owners don't even see foals. The more contact they have with cute little babies, the more they'll want one of their own. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Patricia

Sep. 8, 2003, 12:48 PM

I started this post as a breeder's protest to Dover Saddlery for helping promote the thousands of PMU foals glutting the `sporthorse' market, but I've had a bit of experience with the HRT end of it as well. I think in many cases that was one heck of a con job. I went through premature menopause at age 32. I was mis-diagnosed as having a Thyroid condition by one doctor, put on a Holter monitor as well as Inderol for a possible heart defect by another, but finally correctly identified as having very low estrogen levels even though I was still cycling to an extent. I was put on the Premarin/Provera regimen by a gynecologist who smilingly said he wouldn't want me to `shrivel up like a prune'. I went back to him for checkups, and in spite of my complaints of cramps, `bosom' enlargement, and various other side effects, he assured me that this was the way to go. We moved when I was in my fourth year of replacement therapy, and when yet another doctor refused to hear my complaints, I weaned myself off the drugs gradually, and have been off of them for 12 years now. I didn't `shrivel up' and don't feel as though I'm less feminine than my peers, have a 26-yr-marriage(so can't be too miserable to live with, I hope)and thoroughly enjoy my 3 sons and grandchild, so had no regrets about not being fertile into my 40's. I think this was another example of drug companies `brainwashing' women into thinking menopause is an unnatural condition, and in need of a `cure'. A few months of discomfort from hot flashes, etc. was definitely preferable to the reports of increased breast cancer, etc., that now appear to be linked to HRT.
To have to compete with these `foal factories' in my business is doubly aggravating, knowing what my experience was with the drugs. I feel sorry for the foals, and don't wish slaughter on any horse, but if the companies go out of business as a result of the new studies, HOORAY!! There will be a few years of heartbreaking sell-downs as they dump all the breeding stock, but perhaps the industry will get back on a better footing when it's over.

Pookah

Sep. 8, 2003, 01:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Well then why is Dover selecting ONE SEGMENT of the market. Why don't they sponsor Auctions or Sales of horses- then people will see the difference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to know how many of the breeders who are complaining about this video have formed a group and asked Dover to assist with marketing efforts? Why can't they send out a tape of your horses? Has anyone asked? I think that the distribution of this video is a wonderful example of creative marketing, and I think if more breeders would "think outside of the box" more horses would be sold. One of my good friends owns a very nice Swedish WB stallion and assists in the promotion of his foals. I'm very familiar with who is buying those babies, and I just don't think it's the same market as the people that are buying these foals.

The need for Premarin is, at this time, not going to go away. There is, I'm sure, some validity to the argument that it is overprescribed. However, it is at this time the #1 prescribed drug in the US. So, even if everyone gets together and puts in a concerted effort to end its production, it's not going to go away anytime soon. As long as it is produced, foals will result. I for one would much rather the foals produced be quality horses that are salable to good homes than horses that go to slaughter. I think it's wonderful that so many farms have made an effort to improve the quality of their stock and the lives of their mares. Although I've never been to a PMU farm, I've seen videos of the mares, and they look healthier and better cared for than many mares I've seen in top US breeding programs. I know that it is incredibly difficult to turn a profit in a small breeding program (actually, I don't see how it's possible, so kudos to those of you who manage). I think that it would be worthwhile to look at working with these programs instead of against them-they're not going to be going away anytime soon.

The other point that I would like to make is that the percentage of PMU horses in the slaughter market is actually very small. I doubt that there are many people on this board who did not at some point in their lives ride a lesson horse that eventually ended up in a slaughterhouse. How many of us (I know that several can; I am missing 2) can personally account for every horse that we have ever owned? These PMU foals are not the only ones being slaughtered. Racehorses, lesson horses, and all sorts of other segments of the equine population make it there, too.

"The only thing you will ever get two horsepeople to agree on is that the third one is wrong" -Author Unknown

ise@ssl

Sep. 8, 2003, 02:17 PM

I don't think Dover is going to promote Sporthorses bred by legitimate breeders whether we group together or not! The conversation I had with the President of Dover was rather clear about the point that he doesn't want horses going to slaughter.

Most reputable breeders I know don't feel that's an option for the horses we put on the ground.

The ad in the Chronicle doesn't say ANYWHERE that these are PMU foals - only that all the horses are under $1000. Why don't they load up some planes with these PMU yearlings (alive) and send them to Germany, Holland, Belgium, France, Japan and sell them there???

I'll believe there may be a few of these horses that have some documentation of pedigree - but PLEASE don't tell me they are on par with the legitimate Sporthorse Breeders in the United States & Canada. And as far as marketing our stock - we do and SPEND OUR OWN MONEY DOING IT. Not-for profit charities don't help us out. And it's interesting to me that HUGE horse supply company that makes money off us throws their dollars (and indirectly ours) into advertising which represents PMU foals as SPORTHORSES - trading on the businesses we've built the hard way. Paying top stud fees, quality mares, registration fees and EXCELLENT PRE-NATAL CARE.

I feel they should call these foals PeeMU foals so everyone really knows the source. Truth in Advertising!

Patricia - if there are companies or individuals who REALLY REALLY CARE about all these foals going to slaughter - then why not just adverisements in all types of magazines that say:

"Consider plant based or synthetic alternatives for HRT therapy. No foal will die at a slaughterhouse to make these products"

Simple, truthful and I'm sure will make people ask questions and think about it. Unfortunately Physicians are shmoozed so heavily by the Drug Reps that they write the scripts for Premarine faster than a patient can say "but...????".

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Sep. 08, 2003 at 06:31 PM.]

arnika

Sep. 8, 2003, 08:16 PM

ise@ssl, poltroon and Patricia add me to your side! Working in medicine for years I've seen the results good and bad of the (in my opinion) overprescription of HRT. None of us want to see any horse go to slaughter and if women were better educated about menopause and their alternatives there wouldn't be a need for these foals. I'm disturbed at the way these draft X foals are marketed, can't help feeling it's close to fraud to name them "Canadian sporthorses".

ise@ssl

Sep. 9, 2003, 02:12 AM

Maggymay - saving these foals does not stop the PRODUCTION of these foals. Also I wonder when people spend so little money on a foal - that needs care and training for at least 3-4 years before being rideable if they have the financial ability to support them.

If the production of this unwanted byproduct as the industry refers to it is reduced - the slaughter of them and these (as best put by someone else) "buy it or we will eat it" campaigns will not be necessary.

imapepper

Sep. 9, 2003, 07:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Maggymay - saving these foals does not stop the PRODUCTION of these foals. Also I wonder when people spend so little money on a foal - that needs care and training for at least 3-4 years before being rideable if they have the financial ability to support them.

If the production of this unwanted byproduct as the industry refers to it is reduced - the slaughter of them and these (as best put by someone else) "buy it or we will eat it" campaigns will not be necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not saving these foals will also not stop their slaughter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif or production. Some people might be buying these foals with the same attitude as people who adopt animals from the humane society or the SPCA. Why not save a life and get a wonderful pet out of the deal? Again, the people who are buying these foals are not going to be in the market for your $10k weanlings. These are people who will probably do the local shows or 4H or just want to play with their horses. Maybe some of them want a "sporthorse" or warmblood type but don't need the fancy pedigree. Maybe someone wants a horse that will have some substance for a bigger rider but doesn't have the $$$ for a well bred warmblood. Most of these people probably do realize the cost of bringing up the baby and training it. By the time they are done they probably will have spent quite a bit of money, but the end product will be much more suitable to their families needs. There are a bunch of different reasons that people might find the PMU foals attractive. If Dover feels that it can keep a few foals from slaughter this way, why are people getting upset? Again, it's probably not hurting your foal sales anyway.

ise@ssl

Sep. 9, 2003, 07:31 AM

Well as I stated on this & the other thread. If people really care they will push for more information being made available about plant and synthetic alternatives so the production of Premarine goes DOWN in the future and NOT UP!

I cannot believe this many grade horses will continue to be absorbed into North America. There are foals from Premarine production going to slaughter and the adoptions will never IMHO stop that.

Plus I remember the follow up stories that were done on people who had "adopted" Chincoteague Island ponies or BLM horses. Many people who can afford to buy them - could not afford to keep them.

I just want to see the production brought down so the issue isn't sell or kill. If Doctors made all alternatives available to women - Premarine demand would drop significantly.

If Dover or any other company or individual really cares about foals going to slaughter - they should make sure they get the word out on alternatives and DEMAND that women be given complete information on HRT options and not just a script for Premarine.

BVF

Sep. 9, 2003, 07:55 AM

IME, many women are not even AWARE that there ARE alternatives, plant-based or otherwise. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Ad campaigns and/or informative articles explaining the production of Premarin, et al, AND the alternatives, should be placed in "women's" magazines, e.g. Good Housekeeping, Cosmopolitan, etc. If Oprah would do a show on this topic, millions of women would become aware. JMVHO, FWIW. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Keep honking, I'm reloading. You can't beat a woman who shoots!

Dinah-do

Sep. 9, 2003, 09:54 AM

maggymay - I agree with you. I used to breed my own, stood a stallion, paid a ton of bills for vets, marketing etc and loved it. But when the old horse died "not again". I love horses and have been involved for over 50 yrs. However I do not want to pay for TS and AI and colour adds yadda yadda when I buy a foal. The journey of raising, training and making them solid citizens of this world is the challenge not the ribbon. Selling to a show barn is not my goal. These attractive nice minded young horses deserve a chance, I choose to give it to them. I would not ever pay big bucks for a WB baby (and I can afford it). PMU is not much of a threat to upscale breeder.Very rewarding when my horses kick WB butt in open competition.

jiggles

Sep. 9, 2003, 10:18 AM

Hello,I have a PMU foal could have had any foal I wanted,seen him move and had to take the chance.He is now a stunning 3 year old and I am starting him in dressage.i train with a well know instructor on the east coast.All the people at the farm that I take him to want to know his breeding. Have taken him to shows for exposer and you could not belive the people that comment on him. Not saying there for everyone but if you have the need in your heart to give it a chance try it. It might turn out like it did for me. HE TRULEY WONDERFUL

SportArab

Sep. 9, 2003, 11:23 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one of the women's magazines to do a story that says anything negative about one of the drug companies that buys advertising.

Ever notice that there have NEVER been any stories in any of the women's magazines about the dangers of smoking... think about it.

SportArab

caffeinated

Sep. 9, 2003, 12:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CentrelineFarm:
There is not a SINGLE warmblood used in any PMU farm breeding program despite the rumours that circle around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check http://www.ravineranchsporthorses.com and http://www.flying1.com

Are they the best warmbloods? Maybe not, but there are some in use http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (also the second place finisher in the young horse division at the virginia CCI this year was a cheapo PMU foal bought for about 800 bucks as a weaner)

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
PMU foals- better than you think! (http://www.cancadefarms.com/Horses%20For%20Sale.htm)

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 9, 2003, 12:53 PM

You are right about the one farm at least! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I did an article for a horse magazine three years ago about PMU farms, and at THAT point there were not any WBs in it and the ranchers I spoke to were not in the least interested in getting any. But things have changed in three years obviously.

I think the other farm, the owners of Radjah Z, are not affiliated with PMU farms though. I am not certain now, but I spoke to the owner about Novalis years ago and she was a WB breeder, not a PMU rancher. But things change.

I have said from the beginning that PMU babies are nice horses, but they are not in the least a threat to me or my breeding program. A good friend of mine buys them for resale horses, sells three or more a year, and her market is very different from mine! Sometimes I have sent a client her way, sometimes she sends them mine. But usually the two paths do not cross. Maybe if Anky rides to the Olympics on one, or if Ian Millar wins a $50,000 Grand Prix on one, I should get worried, but I think I am safe for a little while at least http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I have ruffled a few feathers by saying that perch x's have short necks and bad canters. I did not say Perch x's in general. A friend of mine has one right now that is 3/4 TB 1/4 perch and he is a good mover and very fancy looking horse. The photo posted by the person looks lovely, but I'll bet it is not a draft/QH or paint cross. Those are what you typically see from PMU farms, and THOSE I have seen quite a few of. And they do turn out very differently from what they look like as a 2-3 year old. They still have stellar temperaments. They still are great family horses. But they do have conformation issues resulting from the breed traits that are not desireable to myself. Maybe it is to others.

And finally, Cowboy Country was not at all intended as an insult. I happen to like cowboys and have seen many a fine horseman in a western saddle!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was merely a comment of where the vast majority of the farms are located.

I don't have a problem with Dover advertising. I think it is a little misleading sometimes about what they (PMU foals) are, and what type of danger they are actually in. But whatever.

But then again, I don't have a problem with PMU farms in general. No different from dairy farms, and these mares and their babies get a heck of a lot better treatment than the average dairy cow and their calf, especially bull calves. I don't see why horses are more deserving of a better life than cows are. And how about chickens? Have you ever been in an egg producing plant? But I guess that is a whole 'nother issue http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

Oakstable

Sep. 9, 2003, 01:29 PM

Interesting to look at Ravin Ranch's web site. They are using an unapproved Hanoverian stallion as a sire with the range of mares so they can say they are sporthorses. Very clever on their part rather than just using any male with any female for the purpose of producing urine from pregnant mares.

Patricia

Sep. 9, 2003, 01:31 PM

ise@ssl. I think we're wasting our typing time....most of the people who are arguing with us are missing the point that this is a business plan: drug companies need to make lots of money; some horse farms found that PMU production makes more money than traditional horse husbandry; animal rights groups protested prior ,so drug companies and farms found more acceptable way of marketing foals; soft-hearted(that's a good thing)horsepeople will buy foals to keep them from slaughter; thousands of foals glut market; small breeders with tight budgets fall by the wayside. The law of averages says there will be some very nice foals produced out of the thousands born on these farms. But there will be many more that are just going to be pasture ornaments for the most part. Not that that's a bad thing, but there's enough grief being tossed around about irresponsible breeding....how about some of you people tossing it in their direction for a change? They're in it for the profit, and are subsidized to boot...something small private breeders can't compete with. They've just given a `touchy-feely' spin to it that a lot of people can't resist. We have a `animal sanctuary' here in our area that regularly `rescues' a dozen or so of these foals every Fall, and they(the foals) get put out on a rocky piece of ground with about 600(really!) llamas, goats, etc. and fed hay year-round. I don't call that a great `quality of life', but these people garner money over the internet by tugging on the heartstrings of kind folks, and it impacts the real livestock people in the area by making hay supplies scarce some years, as these characters have the funds to pay top dollar.
Oh well, everyone is entitled to opinions, but it would be nice if some would look at facts.....the drugs may actually be doing harm, therefore great thought should be given to alternatives, and if that industry loses its reason for being, perhaps it's better in the long run from several angles, only one of them being a return to a more normal market for traditional horse breeders and buyers.

BVF

Sep. 9, 2003, 02:09 PM

SportArab, you're absolutely right! Empower women with the knowledge to make better-informed decisions?! (gasp!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Keep honking, I'm reloading. You can't beat a woman who shoots!

ise@ssl

Sep. 9, 2003, 02:33 PM

Patricia you are probably right. I know this parallels the "nokill" rescue for dogs & cats. Some guy who made a ton of dough bailing out of the dotcom stock before it tanked is building a facility in our township for "sick cats". Really - you have to see the plans - Phase I is done - for the first 500 cats!! Three Phases in all will be built. All the cats will be sick or aged. My Vet said most will probably have feline leukemia and aids. At first I thought - now who would work there - the odor alone would have me running in the opposite direction. But then I thought again and KNEW there would be people who felt it was their life's work to go there and clean a zillion kitty litters. Most of these animals should probably be euthanized. My Vet can't believe they will be able to put all these cats in these large rooms together (they even have a solarium). without having them try to kill each other. Seems to me the money could have helped healthy cats find homes but - not my money.

Anyway BVF is right as well - the drug industry keeps women like mushrooms ...you know keep them in the dark and feed them s***. Scripts for Premarine are handed out like candy on Halloween. All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE OF OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO WOMEN. The HRT program was very successful - unfortunately all the bad news came later - too late for many women. Sad that they didn't have the options offered to them. I'm sure people adopting these PeeMU foals have that touchy feely feeling about it - but it's like the Energizer bunny they just keep coming and coming and coming.

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 9, 2003, 03:51 PM

Can't re-

Please see my post a few people up. I was originally referring to the PMU perch x's, but did not make myself clear.

Also Radjah Z I do not believe is used by PMU farms. I could be wrong, but I don't think so unless this is a recent event.
I would check with the owners before making such statements.

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

Dinah-do

Sep. 9, 2003, 06:53 PM

Radjah Z IS used by a PMU farm. Also a farm in Manitoba stands a son of Concorde. There is another one with a hanoverian from Spruce but I'm not sure where. The savy buyers know where and start picking them out in July.

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 11, 2003, 09:52 AM

My name is Sarah L. Ralston, VMD, PhD, I am a veterinarian, Associate Professor and Associate Director of Teaching, Equine Science Center, Department of Animal Science, Cook College, Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey as well as a diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition. Maybe more importantly, I have been to PMU ranches and purchased horses from them for 5 years now. One of my colleagues made me aware of the discussion about “sport horses” from PMU ranches and some of the things being said in this chat room. While the opinions are certainly understandable, many are based on misinformation or outdated data. After reading the posts on this topic, as a veterinarian, researcher, professor of equine science, and life-long horse owner with first-hand experience with the PMU industry, I’d like to set the record straight on some important points that have been brought up.
I have purchased 12 PMU weanlings from a typical family-run ranch for Rutgers’ equine science program every year for the past five years. My students gain valuable experience training the young horses basic ground manners and we collect important information on the nutritional needs and metabolism of young, rapidly growing horses that has already benefited the general horse industry. We sell the horses as yearlings at a private auction each spring, the proceeds of which go right back into our teaching and nutrition research programs. The average price for a PMU yearling “graduate” of our program has been $1,000-$2,600. All have gone to good homes and I have kept track of them all. Most are being used for pleasure type work, predominantly trail and lower level showing, however several are now showing at open shows and doing quite well in a variety of classes. Many people were so impressed with our yearlings that they purchased more from us the next year. Many others have purchased weanlings as performance horse prospects directly from PMU ranchers in subsequent years. Everyone wins! I do not view them as a threat or competition to breeders of European warmbloods-that is an entirely different clientele with a very different set of demands and expectations. Most of my buyers would never consider paying over $10,000 for even a “made” horse! Nor do the ranchers or I view this as a “rescue” program-that implies there is something wrong with them which is totally false. They are good, solid horses, ideal for the burgeoning pleasure horse market.
The North American Equine Ranchers Information Council (NAERIC) was formed in 1995 to provide factual information on horse care to the ranchers and general public and to help promote the foals as a valuable commodity. NAERIC has helped ranchers obtain registered stallions to produce registered and crossbred foals that meet the needs of a rapidly expanding market for reasonably priced performance horses.
The first year I visited the ranch, the rancher, who joined the industry in the 1970s, said: "If you told me 15 years ago I'd be running registered stallions with my mares and have buyers from the East paying over $500 for weanlings, I'd have said you were crazy." His son, Rod, who now manages the operation, is not surprised by this progress. Experienced horsemen, Rod, his brother and their families have embraced and routinely exceed the mandatory changes in mare care and management dictated by the pharmaceutical company since the 90’s. Even in summer, technically their "down" time, they inspect their 18 separate herds roaming huge, grassy pastures with lots of trees and hills, daily. They have dramatically upgraded their breeding program by using registered, good quality Thoroughbred and Quarter Horse stallions on their draft and draft cross mares. They now even have registered mares in the herds. Other ranchers are producing registered foals of a variety of breeds (ie: Belgian, Percheron, Quarter Horse, Paint, Standardbred, even Arabian!) and are asking registered breed type prices for their foals. These ranchers typify the modern PMU industry, which places value on the foals produced.
I became familiar with the PMU industry in 1995 when I was invited to join an industry advisory board of internationally-recognized equine specialists. Our charge was to refine and update the “Recommended Code of Practice for the Care and Handling of Horses in PMU Operations”, first published in 1990, to insure that the needs of the horses were met under the unique conditions of urine collection. Every ranch must meet or exceed the upgraded requirements for nutrition, housing, exercise and health care dictated by the “Code” to retain their contract with the pharmaceutical company. As a result, while “on line” during the harsh northern winters, the mares have all the hay, salt and water they want and are fed concentrates to meet the nutritional needs of their pregnancies. They are stabled in a clean, bright and well-ventilated barn with urine collection funnels suspended behind them, not attached to their bodies in any way. It has been scientifically documented that, in the regulation size stalls, mares move as much as they would if loose in a paddock and also can and do lie down comfortably. They are turned out for exercise regularly, though they usually trot around for 5 to 10 minutes and then just stand still, waiting to be let back in from the cold. Abnormal behaviors indicating frustration or stress are seen in only 5% of the “on-line” mares, compared to an average 12% incidence in horses in non-PMU stables. In the spring the mares are turned out on pastures to foal and be re-bred naturally by a herd stallion. Under these conditions stallions can breed mares only if they’re willing, which they apparently are, since 95% become pregnant. My students and I have spent a lot of time with these herds and can attest to the fact that the stallions, mares and their foals are in overall good health and appear to be quite content. Any injury (usually no more than the occasional cut or kick) that might occur receives prompt attention from the ranchers.
The yearly cycle coincides nicely with the climatic conditions of the extreme rural north. The collection of PMU occurs mid-October to mid-March when the weather is terribly cold up there. When the worst of winter is over the mares are turned out to foal naturally in large pastures. The natural breeding season is used, insuring that the foals are born when the new grass is high and the weather is warm. The mares and foals remain together from foaling to weaning in the fall. The foals are weaned at 3-4 months, which is the age routinely recommended by equine scientists.
Independent equine specialists from the American Association of Equine Practitioners, Canadian Veterinary Medical Association, and the International League of Horse Protection have inspected PMU ranches. They found the care of the horses to be above reproach and even to exceed the standard seen in the general equine industry, an assessment endorsed by the American Veterinary Medical Association. In addition to mandatory monthly inspections by equine specialists, veterinarians examine PMU mares at least three times during the collection season.
Through NAERIC’s Buyer Assistance program, people are aided in locating, purchasing and transporting the healthy, good quality young horses. Foals registered by NAERIC have “added value” through the Incentive program, which guarantees double money for cash prizes they win at approved competitions. Modern PMU ranchers now view these foals as a valuable second source of income and treat them as such!
The PMU ranchers controlled by the major pharmaceutical company that initiated the industry over 30 years ago today insure the humane treatment of their horses and actively promote the production and sale of healthy, athletic young horses for pleasure and performance use. I’m fortunate to have NAERIC registered weanlings available to for my program. Six of my students and I made our 12 selections for this year in early August, spending a week at the ranch to get them used to us. The weanlings will arrive tomorrow, a bit tired from the long trailer ride but in good health as in the four previous years. We will work with them in our training and nutrition research program and again offer them for sale at our auction next April, as potential performance horses in a wide variety of disciplines!

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

poltroon

Sep. 11, 2003, 11:16 AM

Thanks for posting, Sarah! I hope you'll continue to contrbute to the COTH bb!

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
Thanks for posting, Sarah! I hope you'll continue to contrbute to the COTH bb!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Probably will-this is definitely addictive!
Sarah

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

Patricia

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:24 PM

Sarah, that was certainly an interesting and exceptionally informative post regarding the current operation of PMU farms. However, as the owner/operator(farrier, basic health care provider, foaling season night/day person, stallion manager, foal handler, etc.,etc.,)of a small breeding farm involving a current population of 18 head, it just made my blood run cold to read the line about 18 herds!!! How many to a herd???? You honestly think I can compete against that? I don't run a `European WB' farm with $10,000 foals. I have two half WB mares, several JC TB's, and several APHA and AQHA/TB cross mares. My babies are priced according to the market, with the WB crosses higher because there aren't many of them in our area(Mountain West), but not because the other foals aren't nice also. I pick my bloodlines carefully for all-around athletic horses, as riders here may gather cattle one day, trail ride the next, and go do combined training on the weekend. The kind of horses you're describing that are coming out of the PMU farms ARE competing with me in this market, and most of the farms in Canada are an easy day's drive from here.
You also ignored completely the other argument that several others and myself have with this whole PMU business....namely the possibility that hormone replacement is very likely doing harm, and even if it is medically necessary for some women, there are alternative therapies and other sources for the estrogen.

I do accept your well-spoken(typed?)description of the conditions at the farms now, but the whole point some of us are trying to make is that this business is built on a drug company's flawed but profitable campaign against a natural aging(sorry to any of you gals who may be in denial)process in women. PMU farming shouldn't exist in the first place... no matter that they've cleaned up their act.

ise@ssl

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:27 PM

Sarah all of that is interesting but as a Physician, woman and scientist - why don't you feel there is some responsibility to tell HUMAN WOMEN THE FACTS. You've put a great deal of information in here to support the PMU farms. Well we probably would need very few PMU farms if HUMAN WOMEN were told by PHYSICIANS the many plant based and synthetic HRT's that exist.

I also understand NAERIC is supported by the ranches - it is not an independent organization - so the data they have is what they are given by the PMU ranches.

We can all get that warm and fuzzy feeling that the conditions are improved and the foals may be slightly better quality - but it is an industry that is producing foals as a BYPRODUCT. PMU farms are in the URINE business - not the BREEDING business.

I'd feel much better if the same professionals, agencies and individuals who have worked on this matter from the "let's make the farms better and find homes for the foals side"....would work as hard to "let's make it mandatory that women have information that tells them all the options available to them for HRT".

Do all the young women at Rutgers in the Ag programs understand the alternatives that are available to them as they grow older - or to tell their mothers or sisters or aunts about the alternatives. If we are using public money (my tax dollars as a NJ resident) to help them train and re-sell the by product of this industry shouldn't we have some moral obligation to also educate them on how we can reduce the production of these foals???? Or is there pressure from the fact that one of NJ's biggest industries is pharmaceuticals and they do give financial support to higher education in NJ.

PMU farms are PRIVATE businesses and what I'm seeing here is PUBLIC MONEY being used to help the bottom line of these PRIVATE BUSINESSES in the name of what? I'd like you folks to offer to have students work with foals we produce and train them for free!! Heck we'd even pay for it! You are purchasing the PMU foals and making it easy for the PRIVATE PMU BUSINESSES to sell their by-product. You are, in affect, manipulating the market and as noted above you DO compete with some other PRIVATE NON-PMU BUSINESSES. If the DRUG COMPANIES really want to "belly up to the bar" on this why aren't THEY putting together programs to buy, train, sell the foals???? Why are charitable organizations and publically funded universities doing this for them??? Sure people have cheap horses available to them - but at public expense. As a tax paying resident and NJ corporation - I'm indirectly paying for your program to help the bottom line of private businesses in Canada. What's the benefit to ME? Who pays for the ads I see for these PMU foals from your program? The ranchers in Canada? The drug companies? Or the taxpayers of NJ? Sounds a bit harsh perhaps but let's put the cards on the table.

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Sep. 11, 2003 at 04:37 PM.]

Erin Pittman

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:35 PM

I second Dr. Ralston! I did my nutrition research at Colorado State University using PMU foals and they were all very nice. They DO have pedigrees - maybe not with names in them that you'll recognize, but some farms have fantastic Quarter Horse stallions who have won futurities and national competitions. I, too, sold all of my research horses (but not at an auction - we did it privately) and have kept track of most of them. They all went to happy homes and are making their owners very happy in many disciplines, including dressage! If anyone wants more information on the NAERIC program, go to http://www.naeric.org - they offer a $1 million "matching" program on NAERIC registered horses (if one wins money in a NAERIC approved competition, they will match the winnings, dollar for dollar, up to $1 mil) - this has really encouraged good breeding and nice horses. PMU foals have tons of potential which means that the buyers are the ones getting the best deal - who's to say one won't go on to win in Olympic Competition? After all, stranger things have happened... J B Andrew, the PSG Dressage Mustang, Jill Henneberg's Nirvana; while it's true that they aren't common, it CAN happen.

Erin Petersen

ise@ssl

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:40 PM

Wow NAERIC offers $1million dollars matching - then why don't the ranches just GIVE THE FOALS AWAY! This million dollars is coming from the ranches isn't it? Or is it coming from the drug companies?

And Sarah - did Rutgers pay for this week long trip to Canada to select these horses by you and the students??

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Sep. 11, 2003 at 04:50 PM.]

SportArab

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:57 PM

Sarah,
I'm very happy to hear that the horses are treated humanely...
However, what you haven't addressed is, why we need to keep collecting estrogen from mare urine when there are synthetics out there that mimic human estrogen perfectly and why you don't see any problem with the PMU ranches adding to the overpopulation of horses out there. Have you taken a look at the number of horses going to slaughter each year?
SportArab

Oakstable

Sep. 11, 2003, 12:58 PM

PMU foals are a byproduct. Those of us who breed sporthorses pay considerable attention to the choice of stallion for the mare to improve upon the mare. Is the PMU farmer doing this kind of diligence?

Women have options -- like no HRT. I can drink a glass of soy milk which tastes better than cow milk in my opinion, and lasts longer in the fridge.

ise@ssl

Sep. 11, 2003, 01:04 PM

I would also suggest Yam Extract - one or two pills per day - start when you are in your early 40's.

I wish Rutgers would use my tax dollars to promote the HRT alternatives!! Maybe I should write to them.

Dinah-do

Sep. 11, 2003, 02:32 PM

Not to raise anyone's blood pressure but at a keuring a few years ago a fairly prominent inspector made a comment something like this" the biggest difference between breeding in NA and Europe is that we eat our mistakes You sell or keep breeding them " Dont shoot the messenger!

ise@ssl

Sep. 11, 2003, 02:59 PM

It's a valid point. And most breeders should consider what they are putting on the ground and what it's usefulness will be in the future. Given the cost of keeping and owning horses is going up exponentially, people who own to ride in any level of competition should be very careful of the selection process they make. Oh there's some stories of $2 horses that went on to be super stars - but there's mostly stories of $1000 horses that ended up at the New HOlland sale in PA getting on a transport to CA.

PMU farms need to produce as much urine as possible - so whether a mare produces nice foals is probably incidental. I'll wager they have records on who the big output producers are - no guess why they used alot of Belgian mares. Not because they like the breed - it's because they are big mares and produce a lot of urine.

Also all this information professionals who have given FREE professional time and talent to PMU FOR PROFIT BUSINESSES amazes me! We can't even get this level of service from our Department of Agriculture here in the State of NJ. They give little or no financial support to the sale of horses produced IN THIS STATE but here we read that they pay for students and professors from one of our state universities to travel to Canada, spend a week there and then subsidize these foals FROM A PROFIT FARM, train them, market them and sell them.

And Sarah I've seen the nutritional studies that have come out of this program but have to be dead honest with you. If I fed my WB's the amount and high levels of protein you recommend - they'd be balloons. I also question the reference to the "burgeoning pleasure horse market". Where are the stats on this? Even with our farmland preservation program in this state - there is less and less open space for keeping and maintaining horses. Many townships in NJ now have acreage requirements per horse. If any state has a burgeoning pleasure horse market it isn't here from what I see in my business.

I just feel if the conditions at these PMU farms are so wonderful then why don't all these professinals who go there recommend that ALL BREEDERS do this? Also the dates tell the story. The PMU farms started in 1970 - regs didn't come into play until 1990 - NOT FROM WITHIN THE INDUSTRY - and not from professionals or the drug companies. It came from people horrified at the conditions that existed PRIOR to 1990. The changes came through legislation NOT from the "ranchers" deciding it needed to improve.

That aside - AGAIN - why not have full page ads in publications - simply stating.

IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING HRT. CONSIDER PLANT BASED AND/OR SYNTHETIC ALTERNATIVES. NO ANIMALS ARE SENT TO SLAUGHTER TO PRODUCE THESE PRODUCTS.

Oakstable

Sep. 11, 2003, 03:22 PM

Not sure what Ilona means by horses getting on a transport to CA. This state made horse slaughter illegal some years ago.

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 11, 2003, 05:18 PM

I'm confused. I understand the argument about the pros/cons of permarin. I think that's a decision every woman on this board, and everywhere, should research, discuss with their physician, etc., and make an informed decision about. But I'm reading that small-time breeders are threatened by PMU breeders. Competition is competition, IMHO. Make yours better. I've bought 3 registered yearlings (from a very small-5 mares-breeder) over the years for less than $1,000 each. Very happy with them and wouldn't trade them for your 10,000 warmblood yearling. I've never bought a PMU foal and proably never will...I like to visit the farm, know the breeder and hand-select mine. Personal preference. And I don't believe that PMU farms are the only reason $1,000 horses are going to slaughter. Breeding for those less expensive horses is needed too. Several others have stated this...not everyone wants or can afford your pricey warmbloods. They are not for everyone. That said, I've seen backyard breeders breeding absolute CRAP, not caring for them and sending them off to the auction. I'd wager they are the bigger problem. Contact your local congressman and support the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act (H.R. 857). If it's passed (not holding my breath http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ), it would solve alot of these issues. And then if everything is as Sarah says on these PMU farms, it would become a purely HUMAN medical discussion.

Norsire

Sep. 11, 2003, 06:00 PM

Due to all of this attention about PMU foals on the COTH forums, I know someone who has personally just purchased 35 PMU foals and hopes to raise them and then resell them to potential buyers down the road. All I can say is more power to them, but I could never get the numbers to work for me to do something like this. I think there will be more money, in care, vet, ferrier, shipping, wormer, hired help, and ect to make any profit at all. I think you would come out in the hole after all of that, but do admire somone trying to make a difference. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are no answers, only the search.
Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
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http://www.bridgetperry.com

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 11, 2003, 08:35 PM

BelladonnaLily -
If you bought yearlings, registered yearlings no less, for less than $1000 apiece, then someone somewhere is losing money and basically donating horses to you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I cannot, and will not, sell my horses for that price. My stud fees (because I am attempting to produce very high quality horses derived from ancestors with proven competition records and tested temperaments) alone are on the average $1500 to $2000 BEFORE vet fees for breeding. Then, of course, I have to feed the mare for a year, then feed the baby and train it and upkeep it for a year to produce a yearling. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

But I am not going to snivel about my costs, because it is my choice to produce these types of horses, and so far it has paid off http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif- in both my personal satisfaction and a waiting list for my next crop. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif!!

But let's say I wanted to keep a stallion of my own for some reason and breed it to my own mares just for fun. Even then, I could not break even on a $1000 per foal. If you can figure a way then tell me!!! I don't make a lot of money, but I do expect to break even most of the time. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You get what you pay for. If these young horses are that cheap, then some corners are being cut somewhere, or they are charity. Maybe they are nice. But I know that my heart sings every time I see my gorgeous foals and later, when see them competing in the show ring, I always want to cry http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif. They are works of art and I am immensely proud of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

ise@ssl

Sep. 11, 2003, 08:58 PM

By CA - I mean Canada. The New Holland sale in Pennsylania has rigs lined up to buy horses/ponies and they head straight north non-stop fully loaded to Canada. For burgers. Don't see Rutgers over at the sale looking for young horses.

The issue here is that these farms get the "sympathy" contributions from organizations that don't want the foals to go to slaughter. Free marketing is hard to find for those of us doing it as legitimate breeders and not urine farms with a byproduct.

Plus as a New Jersey resident it infuriates me to know that horses are the 2nd largest Ag industry in this state and we cannot get the state to give us a cent for our industry. Tomatoes/peppers, forestry, cranberries, etc. etc. Now to see that the State supported University (Rutgers) has students/profs taking week long jaunts to Canada to get PMU foals to raise and care for and feed and train and sell - well gee! Nice for that rancher in Canada ...eh? Not all the people breeding horses have really expensive foals. NJ isn't helping ANY of it's resident breeders but state funds are footing the bill to save foals bred in Canada. Does this sound fair? My tax dollars help the PeeMU Farms make more money and markets their foals!!!

So horses/ponies here can go to slaughter (some really high quality TB's BTW) in CANADA from the US but we have to bring foals to the US from CANADA to save them from slaughter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 12, 2003, 03:43 AM

Here is one is my $800 yearling at 5 years old. He is a hobby breeder and also sold a yearling last year for $4,000. I owned a full brother to him that I also purchased for $800. He owns his own stallion and is a "hobby" breeder and shows some of his yearlings. I purchased mine before they were shown.

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 12, 2003, 03:46 AM

Here is another $800 yearling at 5 years old. I'm not quibling that mine are worth more than yours...but to say that mine don't have value because they weren't pricey is incorrect. I don't know why/how he does what he does but we're very happy that he does it. I bought another yearling last from him for $900. His prices have gone up, but I helped him sell his $4,000 yearling (the owner is tickled with him) so he gave me a break. My point is that not everyone needs your type of horses. I'm glad you do what you do because some need that. Just not everyone.

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 12, 2003, 03:53 AM

BTW, both of those have decent bloodlines, especially the gelding in the second picture. Sonny Dee Bar grandson which is a highly regarded line for QH people. No corners cut. The mare (first pic) has been worth her weight in gold and produced 2 very nice babies for me, in addition to a solid local show record packing everything from lead-liners and up-downers to teens over fences. Just a different type of horse from yours, that's all.

Dinah-do

Sep. 12, 2003, 04:38 AM

Funny this MB. TB's at auction sell for an upset price of $1000.00 Many attractive yrlgs sell for under 2000.00 (reg'd fit clean etc) and those breeders dont whine. The buyers dictate the value.

ise@ssl

Sep. 12, 2003, 04:40 AM

I don't doubt there is a market for lower priced quality horses - but why dump PMU foals into the US from Canada? When we see thousands for lower priced quality horses heading to Canada to be slaughtered? The horses at the killer sales are very often already trained, many (esp. TB's) are registered. They would require much less training and cost to keep than buying a weanling or yearling and feeding them for 3 years before they could be ridden.

Sarah also referenced the burgeoning pleasure horse market - we haven't seen that this market is "rapidly growing". Costs to keep horses are making it very hard for people to be in the equestrian sport arena - either for pleasure or show. We have seen an increase in people getting into it later in life - but they are usually people who want to buy a "made" horse they can show immediately and board the horse, etc.

Patricia

Sep. 12, 2003, 05:37 AM

Good point ise@ssl....if people want to `rescue' horses from slaughter, their local sales barn is definitely the place to go. We also have trucks waiting for the trip to Canada every sales day, although there are a couple of savvy Canadian buyers there who keep a seperate pen for the OTTB's and other nice horses they know they can re-sell for bigger bucks to sporthorse breeders(or possibly PMU farms)in Canada.
Belladonny, I can keep my prices low because I scout around for older stallions and mares with those good distance horse pedigrees, or a young horse with an injury but great bloodlines, and these make up my breeding stock. I've paid $1500 maximum for the three aged stallions I've used in the last ten years...one I am still using, one I buried at 24, and the third was purchased at 20 years of age by a couple who tracked him down through AQHA because they used to own him and wanted some more of his daughters for their program.I have a son of that horse that is now one of my `boys'. I hand or pasture breed, and don't offer AI, so my overhead is low. The Trakehner mare I owned(dam of my current mare)was purchased for $1100, because her owner was moving and couldn't afford to take her East. That mare later produced an ATA Dressage Futurity winner. I know a person in Idaho who bought a Grande(Hann) daughter from a dealer for under $1000 when he asked her what pink papers (in German) were all about! I'm fortunate enough to have pasture for my stock six months out of the year, and my costs stay down because as I stated before, I do pretty well all the work myself. I don't need to make a killing money-wise on my babies, and would prefer to sell one at a reduced price to a good home with someone who will go out and promote my program than get the big bucks with someone who just wants to brag that they paid gobs of money for their pasture ornament. However, if I advertise the horses too cheaply, people assume they're poor quality, so you can't win.
The cattle industry here in the West is getting a boost via the best prices they've gotten in years, mostly attributable to the ban on Canadian live cattle crossing the border. Stands to reason then that prices in the horse market here may be adversely affected by the underpriced Canadian foals as well. As ise@ssl noted, if you want to save a horse, do it locally. It's heartbreaking to go to a sale and know how many perfectly good horses are headed for a foreign dinner tables.

jiggles

Sep. 12, 2003, 05:57 AM

PLEASE,do you really think the people that have to keep up with the JONES are really going to go out and buy a pmu foal.THAT would be totaly out of the norm.Unless they have a huge heart and just want to help out.All you breeders of these fine horses don't have to worry .Have you been to any really big shows latley.went to N.E.D.A. Bet there was not one PMU FOAL THERE WANT TO BET

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 12, 2003, 06:40 AM

Again, the trip to ND was paid for strictly with the funds generated by our auction and private donations. In fact several of the students were "sponsored" by individuals who recognized the educational value of the trip. I do not control the NJ Department of Ag. I am not a medical educator-I am a veterinary nutritionist whose job it is to educate students and the public on the care, feeding and management of horses. That's what I was hired to do and what I try to the best of my ability to do.

As far as your contention that my recommendations for feeding young "warmbloods" are off base, I believe you are referring to the Fact sheet I wrote about 5 years ago. That was based on data from light horse breeds and was targetted to them. It definitely still holds true for the light horse breeds. However I am working on a new fact sheet targetting warmbloods that will reflect what we have learned in the past 12 years. These draft cross foals ARE more efficient-when we feed them according to NRC (which is the "official" recommendations for calories based on the NRC recommendations, which is unfortunately now outdated and based primarily on light horse breeds-but they can't update it due to lack funds)our weanlings gained far more per week than predicted and did get a bit fat. However, YOU are out of date thinking it is a protein issue-It's the calories and starch! We CAN feed our weanlings and yearlings to allow them to grow and look good (not poor coats and ribs sticking out like I've sometimes seen) if we pay attention to the mineral content and calorie source of the feeds we use. The draft cross weanlings we study do well on even moderate quality hay with only 40-50% of their calories coming from a 14-16% protein concentrate formulated SPECIFICALLy for growth with increased Calcium, Phosphorus, copper and zinc and we actually analyze the hay and make sure theire mineral needs are met. The NRC says weeanlings up to 12 months should get 60% of their caories from grain concentrates-when we did that we DID get blimps!
Gotta run-But I'd be happy to discuss nutritional issues!

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 13, 2003 at 11:48 AM.]

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 12, 2003, 06:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
By CA - I mean Canada. The New Holland sale in Pennsylania has rigs lined up to buy horses/ponies and they head straight north non-stop fully loaded to Canada. For burgers. Don't see Rutgers over at the sale looking for young horses.
:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did buy my research ponies at New Holland when I was at Penn. I bought the adult horses I needed for some studies that didn't require a fairly uniform group here at Rutgers at Camelot Auction in Hightstown. Similar type auction barn, All the geldings I bought there were going for killer price. After our transport studies with them I made sure we had buyers for them when we had to put them back through the sale. I even bought one-a Standardbred I now use for comptetive trail riding (when I get a chance to ride).

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 12, 2003 at 03:54 PM.]

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 12, 2003, 07:00 AM

By the way- the ranch we visit is in North Dakota-which, at least last time I was there, was still considered part of the good old USA.

Have you, ise@ssl, as a NJ resident, ever attended any of our Equine Seminars held annually in the spring at Rutgers where we have talks by experts on a variety of topics of interest to local horse people? Have you asked your local Agricultural extension office for help in pasture management or waste management on your farm? Have your ever called me or my colleagues here at Rutgers for advice on the feeding or management at your farm or let us know you wanted students to help out at your farm? If not-then I can see why you feel we do nothing for the residents of NJ. But we are trying to rectify the public ignorance of what we offer here. Our website is currently "under construction" and not as informative as it should be right now, but in a few weeks check out www.escrutgers.com (http://www.escrutgers.com) and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 13, 2003 at 11:50 AM.]

ise@ssl

Sep. 12, 2003, 07:11 AM

Sarah - I have my manure trucked out! Our pastures are managed, rotated, seeded properly. As for feeding - we've been breeding for 15 years - mostly WB's - we know how to feed them - so your work on this which is yet to come is already known by most of the WB breeders I know. But if you don't have WB foals in your program - how can there be research that relates to WB feeding/growth/bone issues.

I'm sorry you feel there isn't a serious opportunity to reduce the demand for Premarine through public awareness of alternatives. Also on the NEGATIVE affects of HRT from Premarine.

You should go into the Archives and look up the discussion regarding Breeders of Sporthorses in the US and what the breeders feel we need to be on an equal footing with Europe for top performance horses. NONE of the programs in this area - Centinery, Delaware Valley College or yours really addresses what our needs are. We know how to breed & feed, what we need are young people who have solid knowledge on these areas plus the ability to train and start young horses. The syllabus of the programs referenced either include one side or the other. Also many come out of these programs expecting to be Managers or Trainers from the get go! No real experience, etc. And most want a M-F job!!

Several of us who breed in NJ have spoken about trying to get the Equine programs to focus on the NEEDS in the industry. Seminars are nice - but most of us don't have the time to take off the time. Also we find that there is a disconnect between the Equine programs, the Department of Ag in NJ and the BREEDERS and horse professionals.

I digress. I will PT you on this.

Tiki

Sep. 12, 2003, 07:37 AM

Uhhh, Sarah, I agree with you on the carbohydrate and starch being the problem, not the protein, buuuutttttt Warmbloods (with a capital W) are NOT draft crosses!!!!! As a veterinarian I'm sure you are aware that draft horses are cold bloods. Many people make the mistake of saying that if you cross a draft horse (cold blood) with a TB (hot blood) you get a warmblood. Maybe a 'w'armblood, but that is not what a Warmblood is. A Warmblood horse is a horse derived from military horses and carriage horses, lightened and refined with TB and/or Arab blood. The original military horses were not draft horses and not used for farm work. The carried men into battle, and they needed to be heavy enough to carry all the armour and armaments needed, but the needed to be very quick and catlike and maneuverable to get out of the way of danger and save their rider. They were still designed to CARRY weight. Draft horses are designed to do long slow work and PULL weight. Big difference!!! Carriage horses, both heavy and light DO pull carriages, but the must also be highly maneuverable and light on their feet. The epitome of carriage horses today are the combined driving horses who do dressage driving, roads and cones and obstacle courses. They do these obstacle courses and hazards sometimes at extremely high speeds and are absolutely amazing to watch. Draft horses work at the walk and are capable of pulling amazingly heavy loads - and can work all day. Maybe kind of like the difference between slow twitch and fast twitch muscles????? Draft crosses and Warmbloods are NOT the same thing. Please don't confuse the two. I appreciate the work you're doing in nutrition, and your lecture on the use of Vitamin C in transporting horses was incredible, but please don't interchange the two terms when talking about nutrition in the two very different types of horses.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 12, 2003, 08:27 AM

BelladonnaLily-
Your horses look lovely! And are obviously well loved - their condition is wonderful.

I am absolutely NOT saying your horses have no value (where did THAT come from??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif) I am simply saying that a breeder of ANY type of horse (unless perhaps mini's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) cannot afford to sell yearlings at that price unless they are heavily out of pocket and the higher quality of horse, the more expensive to produce. But you mention that he sells others at higher, more reasonable from a business standpoint, prices. You didn't mention in your original post that you were getting your horses at a discount from him due to friendship or services rendered - you implied that anyone could get horses from him of this quality at this price and therefore everyone else is overpaying...not fair arguments then!

I still believe you get what you pay for... for the most part. Yes, some horses are overpriced, and those horses and their breeders will be enjoying each other's company for longer than necessary perhaps. But I would say most horses are not overpriced.

And by the way, the most valuable horse on MY property (after the love of my life, Millie, who is a Dutch/TB cross and looks a lot fancier than she really is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) is a 24 year old Connemara/Something (we suspect QH) 13.2 hand pony.

You couldn't get me to sell him or trade him for the fanciest horse on the planet http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. He is absolutely UNREPLACEABLE and we all love him desperately. He is priceless. (But I bet the guys in Europe would want to puke if they saw him - a beauty he is not.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif)

Oh, and furthermore Dinah-do, about the yearling TB sales thing....well, that is a racing issue and we don't really want to go there...do we??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

Oakstable

Sep. 12, 2003, 08:53 AM

I don't think we can expect an industry that is making money to stop. The recourse is to educate women about the alternatives. I think the Baby Boomer women understand the alternatives, but I'm not sure about women in their 60s and older who may be in the habit of taking Premarin. Baby Boomer women came to adulthood in the age of feminism and health food stores -- at least I did.

Women can stop this industry of artifically creating foals, not for the foal itself, but for the urine of the pregnant mommy.

Those of us who have been breeding for some time, agonize over our choices, study bloodlines, evaluate our mares and the potential mates. A lot of thought and care goes into our decision to create life and the goal is to produce a sporthorse better than the parents. That's hard to achieve. But an admirable goal. But a goal to produce horse urine? Please.

Sally
www.oakhollowstable.com (http://www.oakhollowstable.com)

jimbo

Sep. 12, 2003, 08:55 AM

There are several warmblood stallions being used by equine ranchers one of the most noteable is Radjah Z, by Ramiro Z and out of an Alme mare. It doesn't get much better than that.

jiggles

Sep. 12, 2003, 09:09 AM

HELLO, I thought owning a horse was supposed to be FUN not some thing to fight about this sounds like a jerry springer show. Who cares where they come from as long as they are loved and taken care of.They give us unconditional love. Do you think it matter to them where they came from.

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 12, 2003, 09:10 AM

but please don't interchange the two terms when talking about nutrition in the two very different types of horses.

http://www.tranquilityfarm.com
_We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice_[/QUOTE]

I apologize if I offended you. I get annoyed when people call my 14'2" Anglo-arab a pony too. Bottom line-my draft crosses are more metabolically efficient and more similar to your highly selected European warmbloods than the Standardbreds, registered TB or QH on which most of the data available on young growing horses is based. Heavy horses that were selectively bred in Northern europe for various duties, be it draft work or carrying knights in armor, do seem to have some metabolic differences from the thin skinned "hot bloods" but they all have the same basic digestive system and many similarities. I have to laugh-I'm accused by some Standardbred owners that my draft crosses aren't "real" horses too. If I thought I could get 12 Hannoverians, Trakheners, Swedish Warmbloods etc fillies donated or purchased for an affordable price from a single farm as I am doing now, which gives me the benefit of uniform background for the research program, that I could re-sell to generate $$ for future research, I'd happily do it. Funding for equine research, unless it's related to making horses run faster on race tracks, is hard to come by. Maybe if the warmblood breeders got together to form a Foundation like the TB/Standardbred people have with the Grayson Foundation to fund research pertinant to your needs you'd get more relevant information. I think my research is more relevant to your needs than that done on light horse breeds, which most other research programs use. Considering that much human medical/nutritional research is based on rat and pig data, I think I'm a bit closer! I had to really fight to get the people here let me use something other than Standardbreds because I perceived, perhaps erroneously based on the arguments I've been hearing here, that the pleasure horse, especially warmblood industry was the most rapidly growing segment of the horse industry in this region. With arguments such as yours, I might as well make my colleagues here happy and go back to their beloved jugheads (remember I own a Standardbred myself so please, if there's Standardbred afficionados out there, don't be offended).

We had a horse Industry Summit at Rutgers last March to which all horse owners were invited to let us know SPECIFICALLY what they felt we should address in our research and outreach programs. Either Ise@ssl did not hear about it or chose not to attend. It was fairly well attended and since the top nutrition issue identified by the participants present was hay quality, I am focussing my research this fall on metabolic effects of feeding different hays. We really do try to be responsive to the needs of our constituents here but can do so only if we know what they want! The bulk of the calls I get are on basic feeding and management from novice and not so novice owners, who have finally been able to buy a small property (usually carved out of large race horse farms that went belly up) and get some horses. Ergo I put my efforts in the areas that I get the most feed back from. I give a horse Management course each fall that is open to the public through our Office of Continuing Professional Education. This year I have 16 CE students from various backgrounds attending it and there was a waiting list! Hopefully next fall we will be able to offer it "on-line" so people who can't get to New Brunswick twice a week at 6PM can take it. I doubt if isl@ssl would be interested-she already knows everyhthing about it, but many others seem to enjoy it.

Most of my students have never touched a young horse and many have never touched a horse at all. That's why I have the program that I have-I need tractable young horses they can learn to teach basic skills to. However, I do not have the hubris to think that I can train them into the highly skilled employees ise@ssl is looking for in one or two semesters. They are, however, for the most part, eager to learn and jump at the chance to work on horse farms. Anyone looking for a "trainee" please contact me!

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 13, 2003 at 11:51 AM.]

ise@ssl

Sep. 12, 2003, 09:25 AM

Sarah - I'm aware of your SUMMIT one of my closest friends was one of the key people organizing it. But as I stated sitting around for a day isn't something I have the luxury of doing often with the overhead we have here in NJ for equine facilities. If I get away it's to Stallion Testings or issues relating to what I breed.

BTW - I HOSTED and SPONSORED a Sporthorse Breeding seminar at Gladstone about 5 years ago and NO ONE CAME FROM RUTGERS!!! That's about a 20 minute drive from New Brunswick.

Some of these issues you keep talking about are matters that we already know. And DITTO on the issue that research on Draft/?? crosses will apply to WB or WB/TB crosses is a leap I'm not willing to take. The Europeans have done a great deal of research on OCD and other problems in WB's - I have gone to Europe and have read their work. I also read The Horse which I feel is the premier source of information out there for any horse owner - especially breeders.

I know Buckeye Feeds did an incredible study at the 100 Day stallion testing in Ohio four years ago on feeds and hay content. Maybe you should make sure you aren't duplicating their efforts.

Owning horses is FUN - but those of us that produce foals for sport and not for urine are the FIRST to reduce our breeding programs when the market has too many horses or the economy can't support it. Our overhead on carrying horses can be staggering.

BUT THE PMU FARMS DON'T. They are like the Energizer bunny they just keep breeding and breeding and breeding and breeding.

We have to keep our standards and quality high and they just need to produce as much urine as possible. If they can't sell the foals - they go to slaughter - that we know. If I can't sell foals (I don't usually offer them anyway) - I have to keep them, feed them, care for them, and train them. I DO NOT SEND THEM TO SLAUGHTER.

And PLEASE - with respect to WB stallions being used on PMU farms. REGISTERED stallions are not always APPROVED STALLIONS. And un-informed buyers find out after the fact that the foals they believe can be registered or approved for breeding by a registry CANNOT.

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 12, 2003, 10:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ise@ssl:
"BTW - I HOSTED and SPONSORED a Sporthorse Breeding seminar at Gladstone about 5 years ago and NO ONE CAME FROM RUTGERS!!! That's about a 20 minute drive from New Brunswick."

Don't remember getting an invite and since my specialty is not reproduction, I may have missed the announcement. Can't speak for my other colleagues here.

"The Europeans have done a great deal of research on OCD and other problems in WB's - I have gone to Europe and have read their work. I also read The Horse which I feel is the premier source of information out there for any horse owner - especially breeders." (quote)

I am quite familiar with the European works too-
virtually none of the OCD studies that I have seen focussed on nutrition in any meaningful way. There was an incredible study from Brussels where they studied EVERYTHING BUT nutrition in about 30 European warmbloods that they even killed at the end of the study to verify xrays-don't think I could do that type of work-I get too attached to my research horses. I was actually trying to get funding to collaborate with researchers at the University of Hannover to do work both here and on Hannoverian farms in Germany. No one stepped forward to help us-we were only asking for about $5000. Oh well.

I'm glad you think The Horse is a very good magazine. I'm on it's editorial advisory board.

"I know Buckeye Feeds did an incredible study at the 100 Day stallion testing in Ohio four years ago on feeds and hay content. Maybe you should make sure you aren't duplicating their efforts." (quote)

I know their nutritionist Don Kapper well. I'll check with him. Too bad they didn't publish the results.

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 13, 2003 at 11:52 AM.]

ise@ssl

Sep. 12, 2003, 11:19 AM

Sarah -
you can remove the multiple posts - just click on the little folder with the eraser in the bottom right hand corner of the extra copies of the message. A box screen will come up and then click the delete message notation.

We advertised the seminar in most of the NJ Horse publications.

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 12, 2003, 12:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CentrelineFarm:
BelladonnaLily-
Your horses look lovely! And are obviously well loved - their condition is wonderful.

I am absolutely NOT saying your horses have no value (where did THAT come from??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif) I am simply saying that a breeder of ANY type of horse (unless perhaps mini's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) cannot afford to sell yearlings at that price unless they are heavily out of pocket and the higher quality of horse, the more expensive to produce. But you mention that he sells others at higher, more reasonable from a business standpoint, prices. You didn't mention in your original post that you were getting your horses at a discount from him due to friendship or services rendered - you implied that anyone could get horses from him of this quality at this price and therefore everyone else is overpaying...not fair arguments then!

I still believe you get what you pay for... for the most part. Yes, some horses are overpriced, and those horses and their breeders will be enjoying each other's company for longer than necessary perhaps. But I would say most horses are not overpriced.

And by the way, the most valuable horse on MY property (after the love of my life, Millie, who is a Dutch/TB cross and looks a lot fancier than she really is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) is a 24 year old Connemara/Something (we suspect QH) 13.2 hand pony.

You couldn't get me to sell him or trade him for the fanciest horse on the planet http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. He is absolutely UNREPLACEABLE and we all love him desperately. He is priceless. (But I bet the guys in Europe would want to puke if they saw him - a beauty he is not.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif)

Oh, and furthermore Dinah-do, about the yearling TB sales thing....well, that is a racing issue and we don't really want to go there...do we??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Nicolette
http://www.centrelinefarm.ca

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize if I was a little testy when I posted this morning. Not a morning person. I guess MY hackles were raised a bit. To clarify my earlier post, anyone could have bought the yearlings I did for that price (well, I might have gotten a small break on the last one). He breeds halter horses...I abhor the halter world. These particular yearlings would not make the grade for what he wanted. The first mare pictured is only 14.1. The gelding is slightly toed-in in front. Last years yearling might finish 15 h. Her conformation is perfect (for a QH...a bit like a tank http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Of course, I would not buy anything older than a yearling from him because he tends to, ahem, blow them up. Nothing ever stays sound past the age of 2 at his place. Only one mare (my gelding's dam) at his place has babies that command a higher price. Most of his babies I would put a price tag of $1,500 as yearlings and let them go. Again, how he does what he does, I don't know. In hindsight I do understand your point (although several on here I'm having trouble with). I personally don't know how most breeders make a living doing it.

I'd love to make a point about CANTERUSA being similar the PMU farms. No TB breeder breeds for babies bringing the prices those horses do. Does anyone know the percentage of TB babies that are successful enough to NOT be marketed through CANTERUSA, Rerun, or a similar organization? Aren't CANTERUSA horses basically a "by-product" of the sport? I'm wondering if anyone would be angered if Dover sent out a mailing promoting CANTERUSA horses? Seems to me the major difference in the two are that one has a direct link to the horse world, the other a purely human medical one. Now, I'm not trying to fan the flames here...I'm sincerely curious what everyone's thoughts are.

Again, Centreline, I apologize for flying off the handle. I have been following this thread and I've learned from it. I'll bet your Connemara/"something maybe QH" cross is a special horse...both terrific breeds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ise@ssl

Sep. 12, 2003, 01:00 PM

Well both the PMU farms and the TB farms are for profit - just like the rest of us breeders - so why do they get help and we don't? As stated before because they have the "buy it or we will eat it" cloud hanging over their foals. Not sure why anyone would put money into the hands of someone who would send young horses to slaughter - just to get a cheap horse.

SportArab

Sep. 12, 2003, 01:36 PM

OK Sarah...

You've certainly chosen not to answer the question regarding why one should be supporting the use of estrogen from horse urine vs. sythetics or phytoestrogens.

As another NJ resident, I too am not sure exactly what Rutgers is doing for me. Perhaps we're too far south for you folks to send flyers about your programs????

And, my experience in dealing with Rutgers with respect to non-equine programs - ie. agricultural - issues is not the most impressive...

SportArab
Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

poltroon

Sep. 12, 2003, 02:34 PM

Um. Guys.

Sarah Ralson is a pretty serious expert on equine nutrition. I don't see how piling on to her for posting with information rather directly from the horse's mouth (so to speak http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ) helps anyone.

She isn't an expert in human female menopause. She was talking about conditions at the farms, which is her expertise.

If you want to talk about disgusting sources of pharmaceutical compounds, there are plenty. Many of the beloved joint supplements are made of ground up cow tracheas, for example. Yum yum - just like mustangs in the wild. Others involve grinding up bugs. Heck, the methods of making "natural flavorings" are pretty alarming too - frequently they are extracted from their "natural" sources using benzene and other fun solvents.

[This message was edited by poltroon on Sep. 12, 2003 at 06:44 PM.]

poltroon

Sep. 12, 2003, 02:43 PM

CANTER vs. the PMU rescue.

It's a good point.

But I guess I see the PMU industry differently - foolishly producing foals as byproduct when in fact they could be as lucrative and well-thought-out as the urine production. The foals are additional profit, with only small costs associated with them.

On the other hand, the TB industry has no interest in producing horses for CANTER - they want them all to be good race horses. Obviously, they will never succeed. It is also true that for the CANTER horses the economics are different. A lot of money has been invested in any TB that gets to the track in training and boarding fees. If racehorses are sent to slaughter, it is because the owner needs to cut his losses and stop paying expenses, not so much because the amount the animal brings at auction will be higher. In fact, keeping a horse around to get a CANTER buyer would likely cost the owner more money than any additional $$ they get.

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 12, 2003, 05:06 PM

Poltroon...I agree with you for the most part. And I do wish PMU breeding programs could be better.

TB racehorse breeders are no more producing horses to be sold for CANTER than PMU farms are producing foals to be sold at auction. They are both a byproduct of their respective industries. They are effectively getting rid of the "waste" and possibly recouping a portion, however small, of their expenses. No profit to be made on these byproducts. The economics may be different (you're obviously more knowledgable about this than I am) but I still feel that the ethics are the same. I don't hear these same arguments (or any for that matter) about CANTER. As a matter of fact, there are new threads frequently about wonderful CANTER horses. Wouldn't it seem that CANTER is receiving "free advertising" of sorts this way? I've heard no one complain about this. Or about how CANTER is threatening their breeding programs. I realize their are tax benefits for both of these programs that the average breeder does not benefit from and I won't even go there with this discussion. Taxes get me way too fired up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The medical aspect seems to be a totally separate issue. If I feel at some point premarin is something I need and there are no alternatives that I feel are as effective, I'll take it as long as I believe these animals are not being abused. As far as being horse pee in a pill, oh well. I didn't stop taking penicillin in the 5th grade when I found out it was mold.

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 12, 2003, 09:17 PM

BelladonnaLily-
No problem! We all get a little pschyco about our horses. I know I certainly do! I just try to not let it show...but sometimes it gets away from me......>snuffle snort - what would an Igor-type graemlin look like here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif< http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you lived closer I might be interested in some of the pony sized ones myself! A good pony is very hard to find. And I know wht you mean about over feeding the halter horses. We live a mile or so from one of the top QH halter breeders in the world. Her horses are incredibly well mannered - even yearling stallions will stand ground tied or held by her 8 year old son for the farrier - and the local joke is that it is only because their feet hurt so much they do not want to move!!

Not to sound stupid, but in this regard, I am - or at least ignorant...what is CANTERUSA???

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

imapepper

Sep. 12, 2003, 09:40 PM

http://www.canterusa.org

Canter is an organization that helps buyers find OTTB's when the trainer or owner is ready to give up on them.

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 13, 2003, 08:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
OK Sarah...

You've certainly chosen not to answer the question regarding why one should be supporting the use of estrogen from horse urine vs. sythetics or phytoestrogens.

As another NJ resident, I too am not sure exactly what Rutgers is doing for me. Perhaps we're too far south for you folks to send flyers about your programs????

And, my experience in dealing with Rutgers with respect to non-equine programs - ie. agricultural - issues is not the most impressive...

SportArab
http://www.fieryrunfarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

Dear SportArab,
I tried to reply privately to your queries to avoid being repetitive on the posts by going through your website but the E-mail was rejected. As I said before, I am not a physician, I am a veterinarian.
Therefore I do not feel qualified to pass judgements on what HRT if any, a woman should take. I am using the PMU horses because:

A: they are ideally suited to my research goals, one of which was to gain more information on nutritional management of non-light horse (since the word "draft" seems to raise the warmblood peoples hackles) because I perceived there was a definite gap in our knowledge, at least in the scientific community, though based on feed back here it appears the warmblood breeders already know all they need to know.

B: I can individually select 12 horses from a single farm and background for $500 to $750 each that lends uniformity and validity to my research.

C: From my involvement with the PMU industry and perception of the equine industry here,
I perceived that there would be a good market for the yearlings here that might generate more research funds for us, plus make people aware of another source of pleasure type horses that might not be in the market for a high priced sport horse, but looking for a good, solid pleasure horse. As I said before, I'd be happy to advertise your horses at our auction too-I don't play favorites, honest, but can only pass on information that is passed on to me!!

D: It's a tremendous learning experience for my students. The belgian QH crosses I have now focussed upon tend to have wonderful dispositions. For example, despite getting here only last night, having halters on and in individual stalls for the first time in their lives and having been exposed to us for only a total of 10 hours, some times never even getting touched by us, in North Dakota, all 12 weanlings this morning let my students, both experienced and inexperienced, rub them all over (though two were a bit shy about their legs and one is a bit head shy), and were beginning to learn the basics of responding to pressure on the halters, being led around their stalls, and overall settling in quite rapidly!
One was injured in the trip-she fell in the trailer an injured her head and possibly her neck-first time we had something like that happen in 4 years! I think she'll be fine. She was somewhat improved this morning. Of course she is one of my favorites-the best ones always seem to be the ones something weird happens to, doesn't it? :-(

As I asked ise@ssl, what do you want from us here at Rutgers? We provide seminars, courses, fact sheets, consults, research on topics of importance, based on feedback from the public that chooses to communicate with us. I am sorry if you feel left out-South Jersey is a bit of a haul for me to come do individual consults, but you do have a very good ag extension agent down there in Mercer county: Dan Kluchinski (609-989-6833) and in Salem David Lee: 856-769-0090. I do give talks to horse groups throughout the state upon request-just spent two hours with the Huber Woods Trail Rider group last Saturday-however I admit I am only one person with a lot of responsibilities here-I try to limit such weekend jaunts to 1 per month. I do have the nasty habit of liking to spend SOME time with my own horses and fiancee (who, by the way, I met because he bought one of my second batch of PMU's for his daughter, who had been working with the horse for Ag Field Day! They bought another one this spring.-so yes-the program has had other benefits for me! VBG)

We really are trying to serve the needs and promote the ENTIRE horse industry here. We have a new Equine Extension specialist, Dr. Carey Williams, (732-932-5529) who is also a nutrition specialist who will make our outreach better once she is settled in (she only started in July and is still learning the ropes). Flyers of all our events go to all of our county extension offices-what they chose to do with them we can not control. The seminars are advertised in Horse News and The Horse, which are freely available throughout the state, plus any news letters that we have contacts with.

Feel free to contact me if you have specific requests or other questions! Ralston@aesop.rutgers.edu

PS: Your horses are lovely! You have every right to be proud of them.

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

[This message was edited by Sarah Ralston on Sep. 13, 2003 at 12:54 PM.]

Horses4sport

Sep. 13, 2003, 08:45 AM

Well, here is MY "crappy cheap" PMU baby (insert sarcasm): Goldsboro (http://www.amylacy.com/goldsboro.htm). This is the best moving, smartest, easiest to train and handle horse I've ever had the privilege to own. I bought his full brother before he was even born because I love him so much. His brother is even better, which is hard for me to believe.

It's very easy to paint an industry with a broad brush, but in this case, that would be a mistake. There are some caring, good breeders out there, and Cancade Farms is one of them. The mares are well cared for, they are on the lines from October to April, when they go out into family groups from April through September. Their very well-bred TB stallions live in Bachelor bands during that time. A friend of mine visited the farm, and has photos of them standing in the middle of that group, a bunch of well-mannered, lovely gentlemen.

These foals are marketed very well, with a beautiful video produced and sent out every August. Their entire crops are sold to individual buyers. They are not sold at auction or through one of the Foal Train/FoalQuest organizations. I suggest that any cynical person on this board order the video and take a look. You may just end up buying one of these "mutts". You'll pay a little bit more than if you go through one of the rescue organizations, because these are not rescues. They are really nice sporthorses.

I'm sure there are farms out there that are not producing this quality of horse, and that don't really care about the foals. The farm I work with is truly a quality, ethical producer.

As for my Ben, you couldn't buy him from me for any price.

*Amy*

Proudly owned by Goldsboro (Ben), Wizard, and Sagenhaft (Tyler)

***Get yourself a PMU baby this year!***

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 13, 2003, 09:41 AM

Amy...Ben is gorgeous! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think there are always two sides to the coin. There are good and bad breeders, PMU and otherwise, everywhere.

ise@ssl

Sep. 13, 2003, 11:26 AM

It's unfortunate this has been turned around to a debate on good horse/bad horse. It's really about dead horses. Producint horses as a by-product will never be the same as responsible breeders putting horses on the ground for sport.

Regardless of what your profession or degrees or affiliations or focus - we all have a responsibility as HORSE PEOPLE to make sure that production of foals as a by-product is an industry that doesn't grow DUE TO IGNORANCE.

All we need to do is make sure ALL WOMEN have information on alternatives - and complete information HRT - including it's negative possibilities and IT'S process of production.

PLEASE - don't tell me Physicians don't overwrite Premarine scripts. PLEASE - don't tell me they offer women alternatives. PLEASE - don't tell me that women need to risk inscreased incidence of strokes to avoid a hot flash. PLEASE don't tell me they need to increase their odds of breast cancer to improve their skin elasticity.

DRUG COMPANIES - get a big fat A+ for marketing this product and sadly the follow up research on the very horrible negative side affects came years later. Too late for many women.

They also fought long and hard to keep synthetic and plant based alternatives out of the competition. WHY - DOUGH!

NAERIC does a great soft sell of the PMU farms and their $million match program. This is a match for cash prizes - how many horse shows have cash prizes? Wonder how many dollars they've paid out on this. They've also forged alliances - like the one with Rutgers to help the bottom line on this industry even more by selling cheap foals.

And amazing how the spinners - spin. The PMU farms did not have some epiphany in 1990 regarding the horrid conditions in their farms. They got caught by the public outcry - not from the Drug Company or Researchers. They have standards now and inspections - but I doubt if that would have happened voluntarily.

What I and others posting here want - is for the demand for PREMARINE to go down as women understand the facts and take advantage of the alternatives that have existed for a decade now. Actually some holistic and plant based remedies have existed for centuries.

Throwing up ones hands and saying "I'm not a physician" is a cop out! If we all make sure we know all the alternatives and make it a point to tell all the women we know - the DEMAND for PREMARINE will go down, and the # of PMU foals produced as a by-product will go down. And perhaps it would reach a point were NO foals went to slaughter.

Sarah - I PT'd you - waiting for a response. BTW - I don't live in Mercer Co - I live in Hunterdon - our county extension really does nothing for equine even though we probably have more horses than any other county after Monmouth!!

Tiki

Sep. 13, 2003, 08:14 PM

Remember, the name Premarin comes from PREgnant MARe UrINe. It is pregnant mare urine sprayed on lactose and dried, molded into pill form and coated, then sugar coated. It is not an extract as even the drug company knows all the ingredients and which are active.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Tiki

Sep. 13, 2003, 08:20 PM

Belladonna Lilly, you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>TB racehorse breeders are no more producing horses to be sold for CANTER than PMU farms are producing foals to be sold at auction. They are both a byproduct of their respective industries. They are effectively getting rid of the "waste" and possibly recouping a portion, however small, of their expenses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>with one BIG difference. EVERY PMU foal is a waste product. A lot of TBs have long and successful careers.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

CentrelineFarm

Sep. 13, 2003, 08:42 PM

Horses4sport-
I can't seem to find any reference anywhere on this thread where people said PMU horses were crappy...can you?

Cheap maybe, but crappy...I don't think so.

But it was a good excuse to show off very pretty pictures.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Who can resist a palomino????

Nicolette
www.centrelinefarm.ca (http://www.centrelinefarm.ca)

'I succeeded, in spite of myself' - Alois Podhajsky

BelladonnaLily

Sep. 14, 2003, 04:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>with one BIG difference. EVERY PMU foal is a waste product. A lot of TBs have long and successful careers.

http://www.tranquilityfarm.com
_We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice_[/QUOTE]

And as many posters on this thread have stated, a lot of PMU foals go on to very successful careers as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Horses4sport

Sep. 14, 2003, 08:30 AM

Thank you guys for your nice comments about my boy. I think he is extremely special. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Once again, I don't think EVERY farm is that way. So, I've only dealt with the one, but they have said that if the PMU business shut down tomorrow, they would still be able to make a living from selling their babies.

Another member of this board, Goldentoes, also has one of their foals. She told them she'd love to have the dam of her foal to retire when she came out of production, and they told her they want to keep her, as they like her and want to keep her around.

I, myself, have found the Cancades to be very interested in producing quality foals that have a reputation for winning. One of the offspring they've produced has even gone on to represent Canada on their national team.

*Amy*

Proudly owned by Goldsboro (Ben), Wizard, and Sagenhaft (Tyler)

***Get yourself a PMU baby this year!***

Dinah-do

Sep. 14, 2003, 09:34 AM

I love this quote: "It's what you learn after you think you know it all that counts" - (heard many times)

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 15, 2003, 01:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Sarah - I PT'd you - waiting for a response. BTW - I don't live in Mercer Co - I live in Hunterdon - our county extension really does nothing for equine even though we probably have more horses than any other county after Monmouth!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't receive the PT-honest. try again.

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN

Dinah-do

Sep. 15, 2003, 02:07 PM

How do you post pictures?
Mow big is NJ?

mbp

Sep. 15, 2003, 02:30 PM

Sarah - I don't know if you have used the COTH BBd pts, but if not, I wanted to mention how they work (you probably know this, but I had to have someone walk me through it).

When you first come to the Sporthorse breeding forum, at the top, there are squares/links for new, find, MY SPACE, etc. Click on the "MY SPACE" box. It will pull up a list, the middle one is Private Topics.

Judging from some hot topics on this board, it seems like a lot of sporthorse folks would like to know the nutritional breakdown of BOSS (blackoil sunflower seeds) and whether Paprika really does help fading black (and why) LOL

I have to agree with Ilona that it is hard to be supportive of an industry that produces foals as a by product. It is nice to know that some are working on finding homes, but the industry as a whole is very evasive on # and % of foals that end up in slaughter. It is nice to know that some farms think they could stay in business breeding without the PMU, although I have to question how, with foals routinely selling at such low prices.

I do LOVE Ben - I have a weak spot for Palominos. I know that Dr. Ralston's area is nutrition, not care in general, but I really have NEVER seen the type of confinement used for the PMU mares, even if it is only for several month stretches, as recommended horsekeeping for any horse, much less a pregnant mare. And re: tbs, in addition to Tiki pointing out that most are bred for performance and get a chance, I believe that TwoToofs (sp??) has, in other threads, posted some stats that indicate that the tb industry might do a better job than, for example, the quarter horse industry, in keeping horses from slaughter. In any event, she certainly brings stats with her and makes some valid points.

The reasons Rutgers uses the pmu's has been well articulated and I applaud the fact that they do find homes and do follow up. I don't think that quite addresses the fact that Dover is basically taking a position of support for an industry that produces foals as a byproduct. It is a little like the child labor and similar issues - where on the one hand you can rationalize/justify - shouldn't we want them to be able to have homes (able to make SOME money to feed themselves) vs. shouldn't we draw a line and say don't do this?

I know that when child labor laws were first enacted in this country, it met with hue and cry - it was going to "make things worse". But things don't really EVER change without someone being willing to draw a line. IMO - no flames to anyone intended - reasonable people can differ.

Two Toofs

Sep. 16, 2003, 04:10 AM

The difference between PMUs vs. TB for racing? HUGE difference.

TBs bred for racing are not a by-product. They are THE product. Many of those TBs that folks are paying $800 for have put the owners tens of thousands in the hole. I know someone who just paid $1500 for a horse that the previous owners paid $25,000 for - nevermind all of the training and upkeep for 3 years at probably somewhere around $800 a month. A good friend has a horse off the track that they paid $900 for. The previous owners purchased him for nearly $300,000. He made about $30,000 lifetime. There is one standing in our barn right now who's sire commands a $100,000 stud fee. He was purchased for $400 from the folks who paid around $200k for him. He made $20,000 or so for those folks. No way is CANTER or organizations like it helping people make a profit. They are helping horses that need new careers find them - a situation in which many horses in any career might find themselves. I might add that the organization is, from my understanding, founded from within the industry, to make sure that their own have the best chance at a future if they don't work out in their intended discipline or need to move on to another.

Unless every single foal any of you breeders have ever produced went onto compete successfully in a discipline that the animal was bred specifically for, and it never had to switch disciplines or needed retirement in any way, you too are producing 'by-products' by the above definition. And unless you intend to give away every perfectly ridable, registered, good looking animal that was intended for dressage, but hates it or does poorly yet loves to jump, there is no right to say anything about anyone in racing selling their animals on to those who will give them different careers by using free online classifieds (which is basically what CANTER amounts to).

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Two Toofs

Sep. 16, 2003, 04:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I believe that TwoToofs (sp??) has, in other threads, posted some stats that indicate that the tb industry might do a better job than, for example, the quarter horse industry, in keeping horses from slaughter. In any event, she certainly brings stats with her and makes some valid points.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you very much. I might only add that the APHA (60,000+ foals annually) and the AQHA (150,000+ foals annually), as well as the AAEP have put forth official stances that are pro-slaughter. The Jockey Club (35,000+ foals annually), the NTRA and the TOBA, have publically issued statements against slaughter.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Sarah Ralston

Sep. 16, 2003, 08:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sarah Ralston:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Sarah - I PT'd you - waiting for a response. BTW - I don't live in Mercer Co - I live in Hunterdon - our county extension really does nothing for equine even though we probably have more horses than any other county after Monmouth!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, found it-have replied. To all others, again, as several have said, on many, if not all in the future, PMU farms, the foals are NOT considered by-products, nor are they "throw aways". The last year's was of 30,000 foals, 75% of which went to private homes or breed type sales. They are working on getting that to 100%. The ranch I deal with has 100% private sales. The PMU industry is not going to go away-nothing I can say or do will make that happen. The product is NOT sprayed on lactose, etc -I have been to the processing plant! It IS extracted from the raw material. As far as the straight stalls-have you been to the Swedish riding stables on Flynge, Sweden and other European stables? Their horses are also in straight tie stalls. Used to be the norm in the USA cavalvry. Still have several stables around here that use them too-with very little turnout to boot. At least on the PMU ranches the air quality, lighting, bedding feed and water availability is controlled-very strictly I might add and the mares can see and touch their friendly neighbors. I do not personnally keep my horses that way, but I also don't keep my horses in 12x12 stalls 24/7 with NO free turnout because, god forbid, "my horse might get a cut on himself and he's worth too much money to let him run around on his own! He gets enough exercise by my riding him." (sound familiar to any one?). At least the mares get to run around free at least every two weeks. There are many ways to maintain horses. the one I use or you use or the brazilians use would appear cruel to others! This will be my last post on this topic-I really do have a lot of work I have been putting aside. At least I think I've made two new friends who wanted either advice or my students to come help! I probably won't be checking my PT box, so if you want to comment privately, my E-mail is Ralston@aesop.rutgers.edu. Will keep lurking-it's another way to find out what is going on out there!
Cheers to all.

Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN