Risks for donor mare during Embryo Transfer procedures...

[faraway46]

I recently bought a large 17h+ 4y.o. mare with very good bloodlines and apparently can jump the moon. My trainer has seen her potential for embryo transfer and has been telling me to do so this summer (which is ending on March 21st in this hemisphere). It costs here about u$s4000 for the whole procedure (all vet expenses, surrogate mare, semen, meds, etc) and was wondering what are the risks and what is involved for the donor mare (my mare). I have started training her and we have a schedule aiming at the Young Jumper Championships, which first show is in late April. She is an easy ride and I am ahead in her training but I don't know if this procedure invoves some time of rest, stall rest, or whatever...Are there risks of infection or other physical problems she can encounter? Is embryo transfer highly succesful? What is the % of foals born from this method out of all the attempts? I am not a breeder and would not want to waste time, money or risk my mare's health for something that doesn't really entice me much...
My trainer told me that if I didn't want to do it, he would rent my mare out for u$s500 to breed a foal of his own from her with embryo transfer. That kind of tempts me to do it myself because we all know if a pro wants to do it, it's because it is wortn the time, effort and money (although that does not guarentee success... ;) )

[About Time]

And to add to faraway46's question...what is that embryo worth out of a really good mare if she is proven and has competed well? Is it worth $500? Or more? Seems like $500 isn't that great of a price to let someone else take an embryo? Just asking...as I have no idea about this topic.

[kookicat]

And to add to faraway46's question...what is that embryo worth out of a really good mare if she is proven and has competed well? Is it worth $500? Or more? Seems like $500 isn't that great of a price to let someone else take an embryo? Just asking...as I have no idea about this topic.

I agree with this. If your trainer did want a ET foal from your mare, I'd be looking at the prices of similar foals and asking him for at least that.

[faraway46]

And to add to faraway46's question...what is that embryo worth out of a really good mare if she is proven and has competed well? Is it worth $500? Or more? Seems like $500 isn't that great of a price to let someone else take an embryo? Just asking...as I have no idea about this topic.

He is paying that amount for the egg...he would pay for all the expenses and take the risk if the foal is born or not...
As for price of a foal, well, as you all know from freebie to the sky...A good yearling here can be about $5000, although the other day a yearling from the best mare in the country (top winner in 1.40 and 1.50 classes) and the best stallion here (Chester Z-Grand Prix winner, Carthago son), was sold for u$s30,000.
Let's me ask how much is usually paid in the US for this type of deal? Is it a percentage of what the foal can be worth in the future? Is it a fixed rate?

[tuckawayfarm]

I thought the trainer offered $500 for the use of the mare in an attempt at embryo transfer. Unless the mare has been proven fertile, the trainer is taking on the risk of being unable to get an embryo as well as all of the expenses involved. Very different than purchasing an ET foal.

For the OP, there is the inconvenience of having to make the mare available for at least a couple of weeks and also the slight risk of infection from the process. On the plus side, you would find out if your mare is fertile and be able to see what she produces at no cost to yourself. Be sure to get any agreement in writing and specify how many attempts are included in the price.

As far as doing it for yourself, if you are not really interested in having a foal at this time, I would put my money toward training and horse shows :)

[faraway46]

I thought the trainer offered $500 for the use of the mare in an attempt at embryo transfer. Unless the mare has been proven fertile, the trainer is taking on the risk of being unable to get an embryo as well as all of the expenses involved. Very different than purchasing an ET foal.

For the OP, there is the inconvenience of having to make the mare available for at least a couple of weeks and also the slight risk of infection from the process. On the plus side, you would find out if your mare is fertile and be able to see what she produces at no cost to yourself. Be sure to get any agreement in writing and specify how many attempts are included in the price.

As far as doing it for yourself, if you are not really interested in having a foal at this time, I would put my money toward training and horse shows :)

Exactly: the trainer is offering $500 for the use of the mare. I don't know if this is a normal rate here (or in US) nor if it's a common practice...Good idea on number of attempts in writing. Didn't think of that one...
By the way...can you quantify "slight risk" when refering to infections? How slight? And what type of infections? Is that the only risk? And why is the rest time necessary?
Thanks again,
V

[ne1]

there is no 'normal rate' nor common practice'. it is not done frequently enough. you have to value giving the egg away and add that to the costs that the buyer has to cover. it may be $500 or $5000. either is legitimate. either way, buying an embryo and raising it surrogately is a relatively expensive proposition altogether apart from the purchase of the egg, or 'genetic value' of the mare. this is largely why there is no set market.

[Signature]

I have heard people say that to try and get an embryo from the mare should cost a similar amount to a stud fee for an equally nice stallion. So in the US here, $1500 to $2500, depending on the mare, less or more? But yes, I agree and don't think it's done frequently enough to have an accepted value. Good luck! :)

[paintjumper]

What is he going to pay for the stud fee? The mare's "input" (egg) should be as valuable (actually I think the mare is more valuable) than which ever stud he will use. Genes for genes. If my mare were that nice (as you say she is) he would at least pay me what he is paying the stallion owner.
I doubt he is picking a stallion with a $500 stud fee.

[faraway46]

It is logical to think that it should be a similar price to that of the stud fee.
More important though, are there any dangers involved for the donor mare? Someone mentioned that it could cause fibrosis in the uterus' neck (not sure if it's called like that) because they have to wash the embryo out when the cervix is closed? I might have it wrong but I am mostly worried if there are any type of risks for the mare, no matter how small...(I am a firm believer in Murphy's Laws...). Anybody know if there are any risks?
Thanks again for the input,
V

[Home Again Farm]

faraway,

It is best for a mare not to do too may repeated ET flushes in one season. However, if the vet is competent and takes proper care, there is very, very little risk to the mare.

I did my 1st ET in 2004 with a mare that was competing at the time. She continued in work and lost only a day or two per cycle. We did 3 flushes before getting an embryo that the recipient held onto. Later that mare went on to be easily bred and has had 3 of her own foals.

In 2008 I bred another mare that I wanted back in work after she had her 1st foal. We bred her two cycles, got 1 embryo on the 1st breeding and two on the 2nd when she double ovulated. This year I tried another ET with her and she has a 2010 ET foal coming.

Only if you are trying to flush lots of embryos repeatedly over a season are you likely to cause a problem, which would most likely be because of inflammation from repeated breedings.

As far as how much is fair to pay, I believe that if a mare is worth trying an ET, her eggs should be worth something. :yes::winkgrin:

[poltroon]

As for price of a foal, well, as you all know from freebie to the sky...A good yearling here can be about $5000, although the other day a yearling from the best mare in the country (top winner in 1.40 and 1.50 classes) and the best stallion here (Chester Z-Grand Prix winner, Carthago son), was sold for u$s30,000.

It's worth considering, financially, that spending $4000 plus a year of upkeep and training to potentially have a yearling worth $5000 - if nothing goes wrong - is not really a good financial investment. Don't forget there's the risk of getting no foal at all, or at having vet expenses that go considerably higher, or getting a foal who isn't as good as you hoped. And, don't forget to calculate what a year of upkeep will cost. Obviously, there's the sentimental value of it being a foal you bred, and there's the question of how special your mare is compared to the yearlings you might be able to buy for $5000, but otherwise, buying a yearling outright is going to be more cost-effective.

[faraway46]

Any more info on risks for the donor mare? Any good or bad experiences?
Thanks,
V