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NaturalSelection
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:04 PM
A friend of mine has a 2006 TB 16.2H gelding that was never raced due to owner's lack of time/money. The horse had 90 days undersaddle in 2004 and hasn't really been handled since. The horse's sire is Suave Prospect.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/suave+prospect

There are YouTube videos of this horse showing some trot/canter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Llke5lcFM&feature=channel

and conformation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFsWse-FXSY&feature=channel

I saw this horse in-person last night - sweet horse, extremely sensible, personable and quiet working in the arena alone. Comfortable wearing saddle, bridle, blanket, etc. Seemed like a very nice mover for dressage - big uphill, balanced, etc. Great feet!

I didn't take any video last night, but we did free jump the horse over a little x-rail. He just didn't get it. Jumped ugly and wierd every time...and really didn't seem to think it was fun. This horse is a steal of a deal (basically free), but I've never seen one free jump this poorly before!

Do you think that horses can "learn" how to jump better over time?

I'd welcome a critical review of this horse as a prelim+ prospect - tell me why I shouldn't buy him!

mcorbett
Jan. 21, 2010, 04:00 PM
moves cute :)

SEPowell
Jan. 21, 2010, 04:25 PM
I've seen tbs improve. The horse I'm thinking of at the moment was clumsy at 4 and did not jump well at all. He was one of those tbs who didn't finish maturing until he was 7 and once his body got organized he became an excellent jumper. If I remember correctly he won prelim at Stuart one of the years he competed there. So take heart.

TKR
Jan. 21, 2010, 04:42 PM
Is he higher behind than in front? Some views look that way. He's not bad -- but I'm not wild about how he moves behind, something funky about it -- almost like a mild stringhalt (although I don't think he is) just a bit odd to me.
PennyG

TxEventer81
Jan. 21, 2010, 05:09 PM
Sorry, I need a bit of clarification... The horse is a 2006 model but had 90 days under saddle in 2004? How long has it been since he's been handled? Also, the video link says he's an '05 model...

I think he's a really cute mover. There were a couple of moments where I thought he took some funny steps but that could just be because he's young.

I also agree that he's a bit higher in his hind end. If he's 4 then I think he could level out a bit but if he's 5 then I might not be so sure... but that's just been in my experience.

Finally, you mentioned that you thought the horse didn't think jumping was fun... if that's the case then I wouldn't think he would make a good eventer. I personally want a horse that's willing and enjoys their job. A horse who enjoys there job is usually fun to ride... one that doesn't... well it's not fun. (IMO)

EquineRacers
Jan. 21, 2010, 07:24 PM
I really love this horse! He has a very nice suspension that I could see to beable to really jump! I also love how he has a short back! Those horses tend to be so comfortable to ride! Good luck with him, I like him a lot!

As far as jumping, if he is new to it, don't espect him to get it right away. They need to learn to figure out how to use their legs and body to get over the jump. It will take time and I suggest lots of ground poles first, then work into gymnastics. This will help him beable to place his feet and figure things out. It will also help tighten up any loose hanging legs he might start out with. The last thing you want is him hanging a leg on a solid fence! It takes time, give him a shot at it.

Also, for xc, they are better off if they are the non spooky type of horse. Easier to work with and deal with when you are faced with the events out there.

NaturalSelection
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:00 PM
TxEventer81: You're right, the video does say 2005. The gal told me that he is TURNING 4 this year, so I assumed 2006. I meant to say that he had 90 days of training in 2008 (as a 2 yr old)...somehow confused that w/ 2004.

I scrutinized his conformation pretty closely last night, I think he is level -- the conformation video does make him look a touch downhill, but I think that's because they have his butt scooched up underneath him. I'm not crazy about downhill horses.

The horse just didn't enjoy the jump chute - the little x-rail in the background of the video was what he jumped and he was backed off to it the whole time. I know it sounds silly, but I've never seen a horse that didn't like the jump chute... I have purchased a couple straight off the track, but they seemed to like jumping right away.

BeverlyAStrauss
Jan. 21, 2010, 09:50 PM
To be honest, I wasn't a big fan of his hind end......I showed the pic to hubby (also a horseman) and didn't say anything, just asked what he thought- and he said what's up with the hind end?

HOWEVER, as SEPowell says, they can really change and with a quiet willing attitude and that size, if he doesn't make it to prelim he will be a cute LL horse for someone....with horses, you never say never, bc they will surprise you one way or another!

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:20 AM
I've seen this type of movement before, honey, let him find a different destiny without you :no:
Watch his pelvis, just his pelvis in the action video again. you'll notice he hasnt a clue how to use it; almost like it's locked.
and he has a hideous croup

Meredith Clark
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:32 AM
A friend of mine has a 2006 TB 16.2H gelding that was never raced due to owner's lack of time/money.

I never believe this line. Not many people will breed and train a racehorse and NEVER race him unless there is something wrong.
It's really expensive to train a racehorse so if they aren't able to race they don't stay in training.

However, there are always exceptions to the rule but "owner had no time" and "he was just too slow " are usually red flags for "he wasn't sound enough to race"

His hind end also reminds me of my OTTB who has MAJOR hind end issues and is now barely rideable.

Sorry.. i'm a debbie downer tonight :no:

LexInVA
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:35 AM
The truth hurts.

BeverlyAStrauss
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:23 AM
I never believe this line.


I don't either....hate to say it but I totally agree.

bizbachfan
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:32 AM
there are so many nice TBs out there right now, I would pass on this one unless he just stole your heart and you have room for him

Bogie
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:35 AM
I never believe this line. Not many people will breed and train a racehorse and NEVER race him unless there is something wrong.
It's really expensive to train a racehorse so if they aren't able to race they don't stay in training.


Sorry, I have to agree with that too. I was given a nice, big young horse by a trainer. I knew he had stifle issues but the trainer and her vet thought he might grow out of it with proper strengthening work. He didn't. A few years later I ran into someone who knew the trainer and I was talking about this horse. This person looked at me, shook their head and said: given what that horse cost as a yearling (he was very well bred) don't you think they tried everything legal to get him to run?

As for the jumping. I've had three other OTTBs. One never figured out what to do with her legs over fences. I tried but then sold her to a dressage home. Now if they don't figure it out pretty quickly, I pass. There are plenty out there that get jumping right away.

bizbachfan
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:48 AM
I have found horses usually love jumping or don't. That is not to say a totally greenie who has never jumped doesn't need to "figure it out." Certainly they should be given some chances to "get it." But most good jumpers love it pretty quickly. At our barn right now we have one TB (mine/biased much?) who loves to jump and really gets a happy expression when she sees we have raised the jump higher. We have another one who still can barely clear a cross rail but the girl who leases him just keeps trying. They are all different, but this one you are looking at doesn't look like a great prospect if jumping is your thing in my humble and non professional opinion :)

findeight
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:23 AM
A few thoughts here.

#1 is his basic structure. It appears he is very short in hip length and set well back in the hock with an open angle. Very insubstantial to generate the power he needs to even get a good gallop, let alone jump. Can't physically get that back end up and under and track up. They don't grow out of that. Does appear downhill as well-and that can match up with that kind of a back end and the downhill.

#2 is that green jump. If you have ever started one from scratch? It can be pretty ugly. BUT...suspect this was NOT his first ever in life look at the jump chute unless the sellers were brain dead showing it to buyers. If this one was backing off and not wanting to come forward? Clue there. That clue matches his back end conformation-he physically cannot generate a decent jump because of his weak back end. No wonder he did not seem to relish it.

Finally it's not just race owners who come up with that "Oh, he has been sitting for 3 years because we don't have time". Yeah, right. ANY gaps in training once ANY kid of horse is started have reasons..you don't spend the money getting starter saddle training on them and chuck them back out in the field if they are sound and saleable.

One more thing...the disposition. They are ALL sweet when they have not really been asked to do anything. You can not know until they are in a regular program working 5 days a week and getting to the harder stuff then trotting around at liberty or just putzing around under saddle with no demands.

Pass.

Catalina
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:46 AM
The first thing I thought when I saw the video was I did not like his hind end at all. He is straight behind, and his croup is way too sloped. I agree with the others that this is not a horse who is built to jump well. Add that to his lack of desire, and I really don't think Prelim eventing is in his future. Sorry :(.

Of course there have been conformational nightmares who have proved everyone wrong, but those horses have the heart and desire ten fold.

I agree; pass, there are tons of nicer OTTBs out there that are the same amount of money or less (which really makes me wish I had the time to take in more- I need to win the lottery :winkgrin:).

Big_Tag
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:28 AM
[QUOTE=Meredith Clark;4634304]I never believe this line. Not many people will breed and train a racehorse and NEVER race him unless there is something wrong.
It's really expensive to train a racehorse so if they aren't able to race they don't stay in training.

However, there are always exceptions to the rule but "owner had no time" and "he was just too slow " are usually red flags for "he wasn't sound enough to race"

QUOTE]

Sorry to derail...I buy the "never trained due to lack of time" not being true, but why the stigma againt "just too slow"? Aren't they ever just too slow? I mean..they can't all run the same speed. I mean we've had sound STBs that just weren't fast enough to be competitive. Is this different in the TB world?

Meredith Clark
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:39 AM
Sorry to derail...I buy the "never trained due to lack of time" not being true, but why the stigma againt "just too slow"? Aren't they ever just too slow? I mean..they can't all run the same speed. I mean we've had sound STBs that just weren't fast enough to be competitive. Is this different in the TB world?

In my experience, which is by no means as vast as some people's on this board, horses that come off the track very young, or that have not raced usually were not racing for a reason.

This doesn't mean they aren't fit to be sport horses. I rode a lovely, well bred horse that was HUGE as a 2 year old and a crazy man. He came off the track, caught up to his size, had "brain surgery" and is a very nice riding horse.

He will always have to wear shoes and wouldn't have made it on the track but he does his job now.

The OP's horse has some serious gaps in his time line. If it had been "trained as a 2 year old, came off for 6 months because of shins, went back and raced a few times before owner decided that he wasn't winning enough"

Then I wouldn't be so skeptical.

There's a lot of OTTB fishies in the sea...

Big_Tag
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't making a case for this horse. I don't care for him either ;)

However, I know our trainer can tell a lot of times (by no means infallibly but with reasonable certainty) before a horse even races if it's worth progressing. Again, though I don't mean to say I know anything about TB racing. I really don't. It very well may be different.

Meredith Clark
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:00 PM
I think it's just become the cliche' thing for race trainers to say to armatures buying OTTBs instead of risking scaring them off with stories of injuries or lay up time. Even if the injuries aren't severe.

I myself don't really mind an old bow, or suspensory as long as the horse was given proper time to heal and returned to some sort of training.

One of my current horses; Juice had a suspensory injury that was treated very well and he returned to racing before they gave up on him.

Since the trainer was honest (and he was layed up at my good friend's farm so I knew everything that was wrong with him!) I had no issues taking him for a lower level eventer.

I think if people wouldn't balk at ALL injuries trainers might be able to be more honest.

NaturalSelection
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:26 PM
I really, really, really appreciate all the input on this board. You guys are great, good eyes, good ideas. I'll pass on this one.

findeight
Jan. 22, 2010, 01:13 PM
Yes there is such a thing as "too slow" and it does not disqualify the horse from alternative careers. Some just don't have the attitude to dig in and fight for it and some just cannot run fast.

Just that if they are "too slow", you'd expect that to be identified pretty early on, before money was dumped into getting it to the track. If you see one advertised as too slow after 10 starts in 18 months? Then you wonder.

Likewise the one with a tatoo and history of being at various tracks in various barns over several years but with no recorded starts? That one I'd steer clear of.

SEPowell
Jan. 22, 2010, 02:10 PM
In the California Post Mortem studies on thoroughbred racehorses, UC Davis found that 25% of the horses they studied had undiagnosed pelvic fractures. My vet was in school at that time and she said until then vet students were taught that horses have such strong backs that they didn't have back problems. Since then much progress has been made in recognizing and treating lamenesses stemming from the pelvic region. However, people, including vets, still miss them all together.

From my experiences with ottbs I suspect many thoroughbreds who train but never make it to the races even though they're "sound" actually have some kind of pelvic injury that reduces their performance.

Recently a guy in France started applying ultrasound technology to the pelvic region by going through the horse's rectum. According to my vet, this technology hasn't been used enough to determine a horse's prognosis, but at least you can figure out if you're dealing with a fracture or pulled ligaments. From there you can use accupuncture, chiropractry and exercise to strengthen that area.

Over the past 8 years I've had good luck with two mares who came to me with hind end soreness. One is completely recovered and the other is getting there. But their soreness was very subtle and both could jump beautifully in spite of their problems.

I think that it's always worth it to give these young horses the time and type of exercise they need that will help them improve. But, you know, I'm always asking myself if I'm an optimist or a fool.

findeight
Jan. 22, 2010, 03:03 PM
But when you do not have a strong underlying skeletal support system with proper angles? Meaning the conformation to create energy/power and support the weight? What's the point of taking on something like this?

Injury on good conformation is one thing. Bad conformation that limits performance, as on the OPs example, is another. And most of those "too slow" that did go to the track have things not so subtle as a fractured pelvis to blame.

EquineRacers
Jan. 22, 2010, 05:15 PM
However, there are always exceptions to the rule but "owner had no time" and "he was just too slow " are usually red flags for "he wasn't sound enough to race"



Actually, there are TONS of horses who are too slow for the game and end up retiring very quickly with no soundness issues! In fact, I had 1 that was in race training for 6 months (we took our time with him so we wouldn't hurt him and conditioned him properly), he turned out to put out such slow workout times that I pulled him out of training. Whats the point when your horse will run last???? It cost you money if they run last.

There are good sound horses who come off the track and ones who will vet out! I've had several who didn't make the cut, retired sound, vetted out, and went on to be jumpers!

EquineRacers
Jan. 22, 2010, 05:29 PM
I think if people wouldn't balk at ALL injuries trainers might be able to be more honest.




This is a big thing. I actively sell TB and QH straight off the racetrack and even though I am 100% honest to the potential buyers, I will get owners/trainers coming up to me to try and sell their horse for them and tell me the horse is sound, when I can clearly see it has an ankle issue.

HOWEVER, one must understand what is "SOUND" on the racetrack is different then "SOUND" off the racetrack. Racetrackers are used to seeing injuries and treat them according. Also, some horses might have say an old ossette in a ankle. It doesn't bother the horse and it would be considered sound on the racetrack, but to outsiders the horse isn't sound same as an old bowe.

A horse can actively compete and be successful with minor things here and there. I currently have a H/J jumping 2'6" with two old bowes, another one Jumping with old ossttes, etc. Honestly, if they are holding up to racing, they will hold up to other disciplines. That should be your first clue.

EquineRacers
Jan. 22, 2010, 06:09 PM
Yes there is such a thing as "too slow" and it does not disqualify the horse from alternative careers. Some just don't have the attitude to dig in and fight for it and some just cannot run fast.

Just that if they are "too slow", you'd expect that to be identified pretty early on, before money was dumped into getting it to the track. If you see one advertised as too slow after 10 starts in 18 months? Then you wonder.

Likewise the one with a tatoo and history of being at various tracks in various barns over several years but with no recorded starts? That one I'd steer clear of.

I've actually worked for a trainer who would run the horses 10 or 12 times before giving up! The horses had no problems, but were slow and the trainer tried different training methods, equiptment to see if he could improve the horse and once he was out of ideas then he gave up.

judybigredpony
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:53 PM
He hits the ground like a ton of bricks...no dainty daisy cutter or light footed horse.

Totally agree you can do WAY Better....

Gry2Yng
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:28 PM
PASS! For all reasons mentioned above. Poor mover. Doesn't like the chute. Weanlings jump cavaletti with really good form and enthusiasm if they have the inclination. I have seen 4 day old foals jump a pile of poles like they were in a hunter derby. Not to say that there aren't some nice ones who take time to figure it out. I am getting too old for that. Give me a natural.

As far as "too slow". It is true as often as it isn't. You just have to be careful. Standing in a field - "No one had time" Don't walk, run. The one diamond you miss is a small price for the 499 lame ones with bad attitudes that you don't end up with.