TB Pedigree Experts ... Again ;)

[Cassy's Mom]

You guys are so valuable!!!

What do you think of these bloodlines in terms of soundness and athletic ability? Again, I'm still looking for an event horse prospect...
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+reward

The mare I wanted fell through :( I tried to claim her but the races were CANCELLED because of snow! So then the owners knew I wanted to claim her and now they're only running her in really spendy claimers. I guess it makes me feel better to know they really like her enough to keep her and so she should get a good home after she runs.

[vineyridge]

That's a lot of Native Dancer. Two RANs and Natalma twice.

[Cassy's Mom]

Is that a bad thing?

I know he's an overused sire...does he pass any soundess issues?

What do you think about his sire being Irish...In Cali? I was confused about that.

[QuadNFarm]

I think Danzig is also in Denny Emerson's ottb Union Station? A good website is also
http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm

Good luck!

[Cassy's Mom]

What a fascinating website! It's too bad that most of the stallions up close aren't listed at all. It would be really cool if someone did the same thing for other breeds! :cool:

[LaurieB]

I don't see anything in the pedigree that sends up warning signals. FWIW, we have a racemare whose grandsire is also Machiavellian and she's very athletic.

But truly, when it comes to TBs which are in general a very versatile and athletic breed, I think the pedigree shows only a tiny piece of the picture. What the horse looks like, how he moves, and his rideability are all much more important factors to consider.

There's no way to look at a TB pedigree and predict whether or not the horse will be a good racehorse--which is after all what the majority of them are bred to do--so I think it's even less likely that someone could predict eventing ability (or potential soundness) even when they're quite familiar with the names on the page.

[camohn]

PQ is having issues at the moment and won't load so I can't look...but the Raise A Native issue is that he is a double edged sword. He reliably throws a super jump, but also throws well above norm for front leg confo flaws and unsoundnesses...some lines worse that others. Alydar is a sounder one, Mr. Prospector is a less sound one though there are not too many direct descendants of Mr. P now and it is somewhat better in the grandkids....but again.........depends on which ones. Fappainos tend to be sounder, Unbridled is more fragile. But......given the family history, line breeding RAN is not generally a preferred thing...........but if it was through sounder sons and 5 generations back it is better than say linebreeding Mr. P to Unbridled's Song 3 generations back.

[Cherry]

Honestly, I don't know how you think you can predict soundness in a horse--let alone soundness from a pedigree. Every horse is different.

I certainly would not discount this horse because he goes back to RAN twice, and what's wrong with Natalma??? The worst you can say about her is she refused to let herself be mistreated by a jockey! :winkgrin: ;) :lol: To me, that is one smart horse! :)

If you believe some "experts" RAN is so far back as to not even being worthy of discussing in the here and now. Of course, we all know there must be some sliver of that horse coursing through this horse's veins.... ;)

According to my sources this horse should be athletic--I say "should" because, again, every horse is different! You won't know what you have until you start training it! He goes back more than once to Nasrullah and at one time Nasrullah was found coursing through the veins of horses that were winning across the board in hunters, jumpers, dressage and eventing! :yes:

What is most important is this horse's actual ability and attitude and I don't think you're going to know that until you start training it. If he isn't what you're looking for sell him and move on! I had an older TB mare I would like to have jumped but she just wasn't suited temperamently. She'd been pushed to jump when she was younger (without an adequate foundation) and she was just a nervous wreck around jumps the whole time I owned her....

If you're looking for a guarantee you won't find it when it comes to horses--it's the only hobby where you can go from complete exhilaration when things go right and, in a blink of an eye, to the depths of despair if your horse comes up permanently lame.... :(

[TKR]

Of course the individual is the primary concern as a sporthorse. However, as with all other things, pedigree is a component and has it's place of importance. The reason records are kept is because everything is passed on to one degree or another and it is genetic. The information regarding ancestors that have soundness issues is known because records are kept. So, it's like everything else, you take it into consideration and how it affects that particular individual horse. However, you certainly cannot discount the information, which is why breeders use the information for matching mares and stallions and why these questions are asked.
JMHO
PennyG

[turningpointequine]

I have a Machiavellian son so am a bit biased. I like the line very much. :) I'm not horribly familiar with the dam line though so of no help there.

As far as the sire being Irish yet standing in CA, happens all the time, just means he was imported. My boy was born in Great Britain but now stands in PA.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Cherry;4637141]Honestly, I don't know how you think you can predict soundness in a horse--let alone soundness from a pedigree. Every horse is different.

QUOTE]

No one here is claiming to be able to predict the soundness of a horse based on pedigree. All you can do is look at known trends and do risk assessment.
I have one mare that is sound and with talent: and she has fluff for brains... so even talent isn't getting us very far there. Jump talent for example, through studies in Europe, has been shown to be a reliably heritable trait. Dressage ability...not so much. Personality "defects" (spooky, over reactive, lazy or unpersonable) are also known traits in some lines. In TBs for example.....Hoist The Flag is known for 2 things: good jump talent and a less than stellar temperment. And yes...2 and 3 generations down the pike that does carry through. Some of it is nurture (environment) and some of if is NOT....I have had a couple US Flag breds that came from known good handling and still were buggers. Bold Ruler breds were known as talented pro rides for a reason. They tended to be hot and "quirky" (not bad...just more opinionated than most...). Personally I tend to look at the first 3 to 4 generations for traits (good or bad) and 5 if it is linebred. If you start getting off the 5 generation pedigree I don't much care.
PQ is back on line so I can look at the horse now. Overall I see a pedigree that is unrremarkable. I don't know much about Machiavellain as a sporthorse sire and the other RAN is 5 gens back on the dam side. There are a lot of common names 4 and 5 gens back but no super sport producers in the first 3 generations either.