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gieriscm
Jan. 21, 2010, 11:56 AM
I wish them luck. Now, could someone pass a 30-oz filet, rare please... ;)

And I can only imagine the cost of the fencing needed to contain these things! Eight foot high w/ electric, anyone? :eek:

Giant cattle to be bred back from extinction (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/7011035/Giant-cattle-to-be-bred-back-from-extinction.html)

Aurochs were immortalised in prehistoric cave paintings and admired for their brute strength and "elephantine" size by Julius Caesar.

But despite their having gone the way of the dodo and the woolly mammoth, there are plans to bring the giant animals back to life.

The huge cattle with sweeping horns which once roamed the forests of Europe have not been seen for nearly 400 years.

Now Italian scientists are hoping to use genetic expertise and selective breeding of modern-day wild cattle to recreate the fearsome beasts which weighed around 2,200lb and stood 6.5 feet at the shoulder.

Breeds of large cattle which most closely resemble Bos primigenius, such as Highland cattle and the white Maremma breed from Italy, are being bred with each other in a technique known as "back-breeding".

At the same time, scientists say they have for the first time created a map of the auroch's genome, so that they know precisely what type of animal they are trying to replicate.

"We were able to analyse auroch DNA from preserved bone material and create a rough map of its genome that should allow us to breed animals nearly identical to aurochs," said team leader Donato Matassino, head of the Consortium for Experimental Biotechnology in Benevento, in the southern Campania region.

"We've already made our first round of crosses between three breeds native to Britain, Spain and Italy. Now we just have to wait and see how the calves turn out."

The last animal disappeared from the British Isles in the Iron Age and the breed was declared extinct in 1627 after a female died in the forests of Poland.

Aurochs are depicted in ochre and charcoal in paintings found on the walls of cave galleries such as those at Lascaux in France and Altamira in Spain. Caesar described them in The Gallic Wars as being "a little below the elephant in size" and a favourite hunting prey for wild Germanic tribesmen.

Their abiding mystique means they remain as the symbol of several states and cities in Europe, having figured prominently in Teutonic folklore. In ancient times, killing an auroch was seen as a great demonstration of courage, with the horns turned into silver-clad drinking cups.

The last time there was an attempt to recreate the animal was on the express orders of Hitler. The Nazis ordered a pair of German zoologists to recreate the auroch as part of the Third Reich's belief in racial superiority and eugenics.

Herman Goering hoped to use the aurochs to populate a vast hunting reserve which he planned to create in the conquered territories of Eastern Europe.

Many geneticists argue that though the Heck may resemble their ancient forebears, they will be genetically very different.

"There are a number of rare breeds that have been brought back to life in recent years, such as the Cumberland pig," said Dr Claire Barber, from the Rare Breeds Survival Trust. "But our view is that what has been recreated is something that looks like the old breed, but which is not genetically the same.

"You would need to interbreed animals that are very close to the auroch in their genetic make-up. The closest you could find in Britain are two semi-feral breeds: the Chillingham and the Vaynol. If there are breeds which maintain many of the attributes of an auroch, then it could well be feasible. It's certainly a very exciting project."

If the Italian-led project is successful, it will raise questions of what to do with an animal which boasts a size and temper akin to a tetchy rhinoceros.

"Even the wild cattle we have today are very hard to handle and an auroch would be even more difficult," said Dr Barber. "Aurochs were significantly larger than any cattle in existence and they would be potentially dangerous.

"There would be some serious management issues – to look after their teeth and feet, for instance, you might have to sedate them with dart guns.

"You wouldn't want to try to milk one – that's assuming that the females produced milk when they didn't have calves."

Daydream Believer
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:02 PM
That is really cool! Thanks for sharing. Now that would be the ultimate grass fed beef!

JBCool
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:16 PM
"Even the wild cattle we have today are very hard to handle and an auroch would be even more difficult," said Dr Barber.

Anyone else kind of shiver at that thought since the things are going to be how big again? :)

Interesting thought though. Thanks for sharing.

Druid Acres
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:19 PM
Actually, this has already been done with Heck cattle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heck_cattle)in Germany. I think others have tried to reconstruct the aurochs as well.

There was quite a lot of pleistocene megafauna that was huge - giant elk, armadillos the size of Volkswagons, etc. Check out the DVD called Walking With Prehistoric Beasts (http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Prehistoric-Beasts-Kenneth-Branagh/dp/B000XCK0N2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1264094319&sr=8-1)if this kind of thing appeals to you.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:36 PM
OP--good info

Not to be a fun hater, but it sounds like a management nightmare. The article states the cattle are hard to manage and I imagine they are not designed for our current grasses, restricted turnout, etc.--will be bad for the environment they are in (just a hunch--I guess I don't know for sure).

I guess I'm not 100% sure I see the point (beyond "because we can").

Didn't they rent Jurassic Park before they started?

Druid Acres
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:42 PM
I would guess that they're only hoping for a small number of zoo specimens, not vast herds of the things. We really don't have room for them anymore in their wild state.

wendy
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:47 PM
what's the point of this? they won't really be "aurochs" unless they try to clone some from old aurochs DNA. They'll just be "looks kind of like them". Would be easier to just build models, they eat less.

JSwan
Jan. 21, 2010, 01:51 PM
We really don't have room for them anymore in their wild state.

Hah! Google, "re-wilding".

Interesting stuff. There are even scientists who want to bring back sabre toothed tigers and mastadons - to the US.

Boy - and I thought hitting a deer with my truck was bad....

greysandbays
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:22 PM
2,200 lbs isn't any bigger than a big ox and certainly nowhere near "a little below the elephant in size" (unless whoever said that had been looking at really little elephants).



"You wouldn't want to try to milk one – that's assuming that the females produced milk when they didn't have calves."

A guy that wants to take on a project that ambitious might want to rectify his ignorance on how milk happens before going on to the big stuff...

Druid Acres
Jan. 21, 2010, 03:38 PM
And speaking of oxen, maybe the neo-aurochs would look something like this (http://www.ruralheritage.com/ox_paddock/chianina.htm#chianina).

danceronice
Jan. 21, 2010, 03:40 PM
Why breed back the Tarpan horse? Why not?

You can't just breed a couple for zoos--you need to have a decent population to avoid genetic bottlenecking (the smaller your breeding population, the more diffcult management is.) Also just because it's in a zoo doesnt' mean it can suddenly live in a teeny stall if that's not what it's suited to. They would have to be managed on the order of 'tame' bison herds, which at least in the US can be done with the right fencing and keeping your distance most of the time. It wouldn't actually even be as big a problem as maintaining elephants in North America and Europe (there's a huge dangerous animal that ideally needs a LOT of space, otherwise it runs the risk of taking out its stir-crazy on convenient humans.)

Now, if someone wanted to recreate, say, Hyracotherium, or the Cave Bears or the Giant Short-Faced Bears, then possibly we need to reconsider what exactly the point would be. (Unless we need the bears to eat the aurochs. Joke! That was a joke!)

Guilherme
Jan. 21, 2010, 03:46 PM
Maybe a mondo-kool project and maybe a candidate for a Golden Fleece Award (if public moneys are involved).

But ya gotta ask: why? What's the point beyond "we can, so we should"?

Maybe we should worry about breeding hardy, small cows that will do on the poor forrage found in Third World countries. I'm sure folks in places like Haiti would appreciate that.

G.

Foxtrot's
Jan. 21, 2010, 05:35 PM
They would probably be quite manageable after the Seven Games with a nylon halter and orange carrot stick. :)

But bison breeders have a heck of a time keeping them in, too. They need strong fences.

JER
Jan. 21, 2010, 07:01 PM
Humans have been amusing themselves with breeding experiments for thousands of years.

Take, for example, lap dogs. Breeds designed for our amusement. And they don't dress out to much meat.

Tamara in TN
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:03 PM
Maybe a mondo-kool project and maybe a candidate for a Golden Fleece Award (if public moneys are involved).

But ya gotta ask: why? What's the point beyond "we can, so we should"?

G.

we'd like to see Chianina crossed on some Longhorns and then back to Highland Cattle

horns,hair and height all on one nice package :)

Tamara in TN

Foxtrot's
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:33 PM
Rodawn is in Alberta. Our friend had a call from another friend. Some of their bison had got out, they phoned their friends to come and hunt them as it was easier to shoot them than chase them back! Glug.

Foxtrot's
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:53 PM
Rodawn is in Alberta. Our friend had a call from another friend. Some of their bison had got out, they phoned their friends to come and hunt them as it was easier to shoot them than chase them back! Your neighbours, maybe?

twofatponies
Jan. 21, 2010, 09:32 PM
And speaking of oxen, maybe the neo-aurochs would look something like this (http://www.ruralheritage.com/ox_paddock/chianina.htm#chianina).

My thoughts exactly. I saw some of the chianina oxen at a fair once, and they are mindblowingly large. Legs like tree trunks. Huge.

stoicfish
Jan. 21, 2010, 10:04 PM
Rodawn is in Alberta. Our friend had a call from another friend. Some of their bison had got out, they phoned their friends to come and hunt them as it was easier to shoot them than chase them back! Your neighbours, maybe?

Um, that just happend in our neighborhood. Not sure if it was your friends as it is a common end to buffalo getting out.

We used to breed Blonde d'Aquitaine
http://www.bovin.qc.ca/bovins_files/File/images/races/boucherie/blonde_aquitaine.jpg

The bulls were way over 2000pds and some of the females were close. So the giant cows would be taller, but some of the breeds today come in around the same weight. But with 10,000 years of selection for domestic use. :eek:

Tamara in TN
Jan. 21, 2010, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=stoicfish;4634177]Um, that just happend in our neighborhood. Not sure if it was your friends as it is a common end to buffalo getting out.

We used to breed Blonde d'Aquitaine
http://www.bovin.qc.ca/bovins_files/File/images/races/boucherie/blonde_aquitaine.jpg

no WAY...!!! now I am jealous...I always thought that they were great

Tamara in TN

stoicfish
Jan. 21, 2010, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE]

no WAY...!!! now I am jealous...I always thought that they were great

Tamara in TN

Are you teasing me? :lol: That’s funny.
We raised them for 20 some years. We had a big old bull named Murray who loaded in trailers better then most horses. :D
He loved being scratched too!

Your a farm kid too?

Kestrel
Jan. 21, 2010, 11:12 PM
How about these Belgian Blues? Though they are huge due to specific mutation, I hate to have to stop an angry one. http://www.hemmy.net/2007/07/16/belgian-blue-cattle-super-cow-aka-incredible-hulk-cow/

Belgian and Brabant horses show some of this, but I don't think to the same extent as the cattle.

greysandbays
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:40 AM
There's a bison herd in my county that is fenced in 4' woven wire with a strand of barbwire along the top and ordinary wood fence posts. Half a mile of that fence is along what passes for a major highway in our area.

They've been there probably 20 years and AFAIK, there has only been one escape of one animal (which the DNR guys shot). That escape happened, IIRC, when they were trying to load it into a trailer and things somehow did not go according to plan...

Alagirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 01:04 AM
How about these Belgian Blues? Though they are huge due to specific mutation, I hate to have to stop an angry one. http://www.hemmy.net/2007/07/16/belgian-blue-cattle-super-cow-aka-incredible-hulk-cow/

Belgian and Brabant horses show some of this, but I don't think to the same extent as the cattle.


They remind me of HYPP P/P horses...

Tamara in TN
Jan. 22, 2010, 07:18 AM
[QUOTE=stoicfish;4634227][QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4634187]

Are you teasing me? :lol: That’s funny.


I never tease about cattle:) I love the BdA and the Belgian Blues and the Chian's and Beefmasters...the bigger the better

I'd like to see an actual live Gir as well...but they are tiny

when I married Calvin,this was one of the biggest Charolais herds in TN for a long time and Herefords before that and a working dairy since 1940's :) the "Pro A" prefix for my horses now was a prefix for both the cattle herds since the 1980's

I have pulled many a head gate in the slog while very very knocked up....now that is a work out;)

we still keep the occasional small herd of 00's (if the price is right;)) and Calvin would like to have about 1000 mama cows...I'd prefer bucking stock or a bull lease program,so it don't get much more "farm' than that around here

and one day I'll have a team of oxen...one day before I die:yes:

Tamara in TN

WaningMoon
Jan. 22, 2010, 07:18 AM
Sigh. I never see the point of bringing back something that was extinct. Or even something similar to what is already extinct. They just have no CLUE what chain of events they could set off. Humans really are an arrogant lot. It might be interesting to note that this is the same idea that Hitler tried, as noted in the article, and we all know Hitler was an insane sociopath. Should be red flags waving and alarm bells dinging and clanging very loudly here.

There are some scientists tinkering with the idea of cloning a woolly mammoth from a fully preserved baby mammoth they uncovered in excellent condition - so good in fact, they even had the abdominal organs still fully preserved and even the mammoth's last meal. They found viable marrow in one of the long bones of the leg.

Viable marrow = viable DNA.

This means, this DNA could be carefully replicated to get a quantity enough to consider developing a clone, which a female elephant would then carry.

I can only wonder. We really don't know how BIG woolly mammoth babies are when they're born, or what their gestational length is. The elephant carries for I believe nearly 2 years. What if the woolly is longer? The infant will be born premature. And what if the newborns are much larger than elephant newborns, thus putting the female elephant at risk.

Furthermore... we don't REALLY know just how strong these animals are. It will be very hard to contain them. Like elephants, pretty sure they would need to be constantly moving in order to maintain good health. There just wouldn't be a wildlife preserve cold enough with cold-tolerant plants enough to feed them. Unless they tried hay...

And no natural predators for them, since the saber toothed tiger is also extinct. Oh hey, let's just go and clone a few of those too.

How'd you like that? Look out your window one day and see a massive long-toothed tiger with a head 10-12 inches wide from ear tip to ear tip (similar to the African lion in size) staring back through your window. I highly doubt a pane of glass would keep them out.

I dunno. I'll get off my soapbox now.

It sounds like you are talking about Lyuba, the one in the NG article in May. That was one of the most interesting articles. They say she was 1 month old when she died. And in the article they show two men easily carrying her between them on page 32. She LOOKS to be about the size of an elephant but who knows.

Jingo-ace
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:09 AM
How about these Belgian Blues? Though they are huge due to specific mutation, I hate to have to stop an angry one. http://www.hemmy.net/2007/07/16/belgian-blue-cattle-super-cow-aka-incredible-hulk-cow/


WOW! Those cows look just like those halter-type Quarter horses! Look at the back-eind muscle-ing and the chest/forearms.... all I can say is ... "Holy Cow!"

And, no, I wouldn't want one of those cattle on my farmette! WAY TOO HUGE!
imho,
:) J

Tamara in TN
Jan. 22, 2010, 09:23 AM
WOW! Those cows look just like those halter-type Quarter horses! Look at the back-eind muscle-ing and the chest/forearms.... all I can say is ... "Holy Cow!"

And, no, I wouldn't want one of those cattle on my farmette! WAY TOO HUGE!
imho,
:) J

you can never be too big :) they are bred in specific for a double muscle trait..."double the meat on the same frame" kinda thing....good for places where land is at a premium and meat is expensive to produce...I wish they could isolate that in a lot more breeds

Tamara in TN

Alagirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:49 AM
you can never be too big :) they are bred in specific for a double muscle trait..."double the meat on the same frame" kinda thing....good for places where land is at a premium and meat is expensive to produce...I wish they could isolate that in a lot more breeds

Tamara in TN


more bang for the buck?

If it was true, there would be more of them out there, heard about them 20 some years ago, never seen how ugly they are...

I do believe if my info is correct, they have birthing troubles...dunno, but a c- section every year on a cow, that can't be good. then again, maybe they made strides in selective breeding by now.

Like the Halter QH, not something I find esteticaly pleasing (or Mr Universe bodybuilders)

wendy
Jan. 22, 2010, 10:51 AM
....good for places where land is at a premium and meat is expensive to produce...I wish they could isolate that in a lot more breeds


these mutated freaks can't give birth naturally, the cows have to have c-sections. Cruel to propagate them perhaps?

stoicfish
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:36 AM
more bang for the buck?

If it was true, there would be more of them out there, heard about them 20 some years ago, never seen how ugly they are...

I do believe if my info is correct, they have birthing troubles...dunno, but a c- section every year on a cow, that can't be good. then again, maybe they made strides in selective breeding by now.

Like the Halter QH, not something I find esteticaly pleasing (or Mr Universe bodybuilders)

The Blonds are double muscled, just not to the extreme. We had less trouble then most people with calving. Tamara is right about the build and the area. I do not think they would work as well in a hot climate with their pasture spread out over 1000's of acres.
When I first showed them many people had not seen them before and thought they were funny looking. But I have noticed that the British breeds started to look more like the exotics in build and size, including a double muscle.
http://fhsukams.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/hereford_bull_large.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/virgomerry/3216354285/

tkhawk
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE][QUOTE=stoicfish;4634227]


I never tease about cattle:) I love the BdA and the Belgian Blues and the Chian's and Beefmasters...the bigger the better

I'd like to see an actual live Gir as well...but they are tiny

when I married Calvin,this was one of the biggest Charolais herds in TN for a long time and Herefords before that and a working dairy since 1940's :) the "Pro A" prefix for my horses now was a prefix for both the cattle herds since the 1980's

I have pulled many a head gate in the slog while very very knocked up....now that is a work out;)

we still keep the occasional small herd of 00's (if the price is right;)) and Calvin would like to have about 1000 mama cows...I'd prefer bucking stock or a bull lease program,so it don't get much more "farm' than that around here

and one day I'll have a team of oxen...one day before I die:yes:

Tamara in TN

Hmm do they have Gir in the US?

If you like big cattle, these will do. They are a breed called Ongole- a region in India. They make excellant oxen and withstand the heat and bugs very well. They claim a pair can pull upto a couple of tons easily-but I don't know personally.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/ongole/ongole12.jpg


These I do know personally . They are called Kangayam and my uncle in India still has a pair of oxen . The bulls are extremly nasty and aggressive . But oxen are much more docile. Big and great for work and great for heat and bugs-never had one that got sick. When I was a kid, my uncle had a bull-scary thing and two men always handled it, with a rope on each side from the nose -well mostly because it was not open land and if it escaped, it would run right into the village. But an imposing creature. Probably weigh upto 2500 #.
http://www.sripudhuvangalamman.net/public_html/images/bull.jpg


Probably not as big as the western breeds, but very good draft animals. I remember as a kid going in an oxcart to and from places or loading up stuff and sitting on top of the hay or sometimes manure in my grandfather's village. The world has come a long way since!!

stoicfish
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:10 PM
Hmm do they have Gir in the US?


I have seen those in person and they are beautiful.
But just to look at them I would say they are more bone then meat. Just guessing but I bet they were developed more for work? They might have really good milk though.

So if the bulls are mean, how do the farm people deal with them as in fencing? I bet they can really jump! Only keep young ones around?

Alagirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 12:14 PM
[quote=Tamara in TN;4634490][quote]

Hmm do they have Gir in the US?

If you like big cattle, these will do. They are a breed called Ongole- a region in India. They make excellant oxen and withstand the heat and bugs very well. They claim a pair can pull upto a couple of tons easily-but I don't know personally.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/ongole/ongole12.jpg


These I do know personally . They are called Kangayam and my uncle in India still has a pair of oxen . The bulls are extremly nasty and aggressive . But oxen are much more docile. Big and great for work and great for heat and bugs-never had one that got sick. When I was a kid, my uncle had a bull-scary thing and two men always handled it, with a rope on each side from the nose -well mostly because it was not open land and if it escaped, it would run right into the village. But an imposing creature. Probably weigh upto 2500 #.
http://www.sripudhuvangalamman.net/public_html/images/bull.jpg


Probably not as big as the western breeds, but very good draft animals. I remember as a kid going in an oxcart to and from places or loading up stuff and sitting on top of the hay or sometimes manure in my grandfather's village. The world has come a long way since!!

My Dad used to intern in a cattle semen collection place, I do think mostly dairy though, I think handling bulls with staffs instead of ropes to the nose ring is pretty common.

And as to barns, they have safe guards, barriers with man size holes in them...to you can bail when one gets lose! :lol:

But those Indian critters are impressive - and pretty!

tkhawk
Jan. 22, 2010, 01:00 PM
I have seen those in person and they are beautiful.
But just to look at them I would say they are more bone then meat. Just guessing but I bet they were developed more for work? They might have really good milk though.

So if the bulls are mean, how do the farm people deal with them as in fencing? I bet they can really jump! Only keep young ones around?

Most cattle there are not kept free like here. Almost all of them are handled almost like horses here. They have an enclosed shed that is usually attached to the house. Oxen, at least in the old days were worked hard. Up until almost 20-30 yrs ago, oxen provided labour for everything, ploughs, carts, drawing water from wells. So they generally didn't have much energy left to be very aggressive. Kinda like a ranch horse that pulls in 5-8hr days. Cows vary in temperament-mostly hot-more or less like TBs or Arabs, until they started introducing western cows in the gene pool. But still all were tied and handled and taken to the fields and back. Usually when going out of the sheds to the field, the rope that is used to tether is tied around the horns and then they are allowed to graze if the fields are fallow or tied and then hand grazed for a while or taken to public areas for grazing. The cows all know where the field is and will walk right there or to any grazing area with the cowherd in the back. Pretty smart critters.

The bulls are another story. Since there is no open fenced land, they are kept in a separate area, but you have to lead them to and fro from the shed to say an area outside or to the breeding area. So the only thing they do is eat and have sex!!:lol: Plus in the part of India I grew up in, we have an annual festival, akin to the running of the bulls. The bull never gets hurt-only the people. So for centuries, they were bred to be aggressive. It was just accepted that a bull was aggressive and so they always had two people handle them and were very careful and they were always tethered-which probably made them even nastier. But it was just too risky to let them be free-if they got out, they are right in the village with cows, kids and everybody all roaming about.

The only exception was during the summer, some folks would come and take all the cows out for a few months as a huge herd and take them to the hills or another area for grazing for a fee. These folks had a bull . But it was one bull covering hundreds of cows-so he was pretty worn out by the end and not much of a danger!:lol:

My uncle now has a Friesian looking bull. Nowadays AI is all the rage-but unlike here, you never know what you are getting. It could be Friesian or Jersey or any number of dairy breeds. He was saying it is a lot more docile than the Kangayam ones. I think they are more of a colder breed?

Rocky
Jan. 22, 2010, 01:10 PM
Um, didn't anyone see Juracic Park?

Alagirl
Jan. 22, 2010, 02:47 PM
Um, didn't anyone see Juracic Park?


I was hoping these cows are herbivors....:yes:

deltawave
Jan. 22, 2010, 03:03 PM
I'll take mine very, very rare as well.

Now can we go back and breed an Eohippus? I'd like to have an equine house pet. :D

stoicfish
Jan. 22, 2010, 07:19 PM
Thanks tkhawk!!!
That was very informitive. :)

Tamara in TN
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:08 PM
=tkhawk;4635042]

Hmm do they have Gir in the US?

the ones I admired are in Brazil


If you like big cattle, these will do. They are a breed called Ongole- a region in India. They make excellant oxen and withstand the heat and bugs very well. They claim a pair can pull upto a couple of tons easily-but I don't know personally.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/ongole/ongole12.jpg


But an imposing creature. Probably weigh upto 2500 #.
http://www.sripudhuvangalamman.net/public_html/images/bull.jpg


Probably not as big as the western breeds, but very good draft animals. I remember as a kid going in an oxcart to and from places or loading up stuff and sitting on top of the hay or sometimes manure in my grandfather's village. The world has come a long way since!![/QUOTE]

very cool indeed...thank you....the prob for me is that the Bos Indicus don't do well in our winters...God meant for them to live elsewhere than TN...but that don't keep me from looking;)

Tamara in TN

Tamara in TN
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:13 PM
these mutated freaks can't give birth naturally, the cows have to have c-sections. Cruel to propagate them perhaps?


ummm no, c sections are not as traumatic for cattle as women or horses

I do think that if the same space and effort can make twice the edible meat then go for it...those are well tended remarkable animals....they do not offend my eye, so much as slab thin 48 inch tall angus cows nursing anorexic baldie calves...now that is wickedness

Tamara in TN

dmalbone
Jan. 22, 2010, 11:59 PM
ummm no, c sections are not as traumatic for cattle as women or horses

How come? I know nothing about cattle so I'm curious. I just know the ginormous ones posted on here are frightening. :p

tkhawk
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
the ones I admired are in Brazil


very cool indeed...thank you....the prob for me is that the Bos Indicus don't do well in our winters...God meant for them to live elsewhere than TN...but that don't keep me from looking;)

Tamara in TN[/QUOTE]

Yeah that is true and in the reverse way too. Before in India, you only had the native breeds, which were around for centuries-well actually some paintings and writings go back millenia. But they were very suited to the heat, bugs , sparse vegeatation and doing hard work.
It was so easy to have them. They never got sick, didn't need any special feed and were really good workers even in the heat of summer. Then the western breeds were introduced and they did not do well in the heat. In the beginning people lost so many, because they treated them like the regular cows. But it is just a pain, with vaccinations, rushing to take the cows out and bringing them back before noon -for atleast 5 mths when it is really hot- giving them baths to cool down and the most important giving them special feed. Even after all this , life expectancy is way down and they are starting to see a lot of fertility problems.

My uncle was saying, in the end it works out the same. Milk yield is up by sometimes upto 10 times the original yield-but mostly on average 2-5 times more. But with the price of feed, disease, more frequent death, extra care for the heat and lowered life span and fertility issues, it works out to be the same. But they are just addicted to the high cash flows, because it looks like you rolling in cash. But before you had cows, you did nothing, just take them to the fields and back, fed them any old hay and to the lactacting mothers and oxen in full work, they gave waste prodcuts like the husk from rice or other grains, leftover from sugarcane etc. Never worry about heat, just work the oxen right through mid day sun and they were fine. Now not so much..

foundationmare
Jan. 23, 2010, 06:45 PM
Regarding c-sections and cattle: I had an interesting discussion about this very thing not long ago with the State vet in the test barn at the racetrack. He's a partner in a cow practice and, while he was telling me how eager he is to retire so he won't be called out at all hours, he mentioned, among other things, doing c-sections in unpleasant conditions and I was aghasted! I asked many questions and he edumacated me! Turns out that c-sections aren't all that uncommon, mama cow copes very well, recovers easily and can continue to freshen with no ill effects. For whatever reason, cows do much better than other species.

For all of the years I've lived in cow-country, I didn't know this.

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2010, 06:55 PM
you can poke a hole in their stomach, too...

But then I still think that no c section is better...

But our cows have little in common with Auroxen...

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:00 PM
Now can we go back and breed an Eohippus? I'd like to have an equine house pet. :D

Ooooh - a house-pet sized equine with toes.:) It just doesn't get much cuter than that.:yes:

See, I wish someone would bring back the Carolina parakeet. No cows the size of elephants that need long fanged cats to keep them in check.:no:

Lovely, colorful Carolina parakeets.:yes: And little horsies with toes.:yes:

deltawave
Jan. 23, 2010, 07:01 PM
One of my partners is an ex- horse vet, who often did cow work, too. They do the C-sections with mama cow standing up, just do nerve blocks along the spine, clip, cut, pull out the calf, and sew her right back up! :eek:

tkhawk
Jan. 23, 2010, 09:48 PM
you can poke a hole in their stomach, too...

But then I still think that no c section is better...

But our cows have little in common with Auroxen...

Which breeds do you have if you don't mind me asking? I love cows-it took me a long while to get used to eating them! Kinda remember my favorite cows when I look at the steak!

Alagirl
Jan. 23, 2010, 11:54 PM
LOL, no cow.

If I could I'd look into a Jersey or Guernsey, or some old breeds like I think Dexter...those that have no room in modern farming, because they do not give enough milk nor meat, but both at the same time.

I meant 'our modern cows', sry bout that. :)

JSwan
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:33 AM
They do the C-sections with mama cow standing up, just do nerve blocks along the spine, clip, cut, pull out the calf, and sew her right back up! :eek:

Isn't that pretty much how human c-sections are done to? They go in, take out, and send you home to lactate?

Yes, Paint - I want the Carolina Parakeet back. And Ivory Billed Woodpeckers. And Passenger Pigeons.

No small toed horses, though - I've got enough problems with the muddy paw prints on my floors!

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:55 AM
No small toed horses, though - I've got enough problems with the muddy paw prints on my floors!

I think they had tiny little hooves at the end of each toe, didn't they?:) Wouldn't it be worth the paw prints to see the farriers trying to put charm-bracelet-sized horse shoes on those little toes?:D

SLW
Jan. 24, 2010, 10:48 AM
How come? I know nothing about cattle so I'm curious. I just know the ginormous ones posted on here are frightening. :p

For a cow C-section you do a nerve & skin blocks, clip, sterile scrub, make the cuts through the layers, remove the calf, sew the layers back up give a shot of antibiotic and send her and the calf on down the ramp. Cattle are less suseptible to peritonitis than horses or humans, hence the surgical envioronment does not have to be sterile. IOW, if you open up a horse's abdomen in a field or non-sterile clinic to do surgery, the subsequent infection will probably kill them.

Now that covers the acutal proceedure, as for pain tolerance that is still debated. Temple Grandon offers that animals will conceal how much pain they are in because showing pain makes you a target to be eaten. Owners generally monitor how the animal acts and is eating as a sign of any pain.

Still, every C section I assisted in the cow walked away just fine and if the calf was alive, it walked away with her. Nature is amazing. :lol:

deltawave
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:03 AM
Wasn't it in one of James Herriott's books how the peritoneum of the cow is amazingly tolerant of pollution? :lol:

Montanas_Girl
Jan. 24, 2010, 04:55 PM
Double-muscling actually happens fairly often in some beef cattle breeds. It is considered a genetic flaw. The meat found on these types of carcasses does not display the "marbling" that is desireable in the American beef market. The USDA grades the meat from double-muscled carasses "U.S. Inferior", and it will not be used for human consumption.

Tamara in TN
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:22 PM
The USDA grades the meat from double-muscled carasses "U.S. Inferior", and it will not be used for human consumption.

well that won't keep them out of my crockpots;)

Tamara in TN

SLW
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:41 PM
Wasn't it in one of James Herriott's books how the peritoneum of the cow is amazingly tolerant of pollution? :lol:

I learned this via helping Doc with a displaced abomasum(sp). He was up to his 6'3" armpit down in the right side of the cow. With every reach down he made I had to hold in the cow's intestines- proving there is a limit to how much matter a cow's body cavity can hold before expelling something. :cool: Anyway, when we were done (and yes the cow walked away just fine) I asked him why we could do that in a non-sterile environment without the cow dying. He said the cows don't suffer from peritonitis like horses do.

deltawave
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:46 PM
Just think how much easier our lives would be if we rode and looked after cows instead of horses! :D

stoicfish
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:23 PM
Double-muscling actually happens fairly often in some beef cattle breeds. It is considered a genetic flaw. The meat found on these types of carcasses does not display the "marbling" that is desireable in the American beef market. The USDA grades the meat from double-muscled carasses "U.S. Inferior", and it will not be used for human consumption.

I assume you are not referring to the breeds that are naturally muscled, like the Blonde d’Aquitaine? ;)

Alberta has some of the best beef in the world, in fact I have eaten in many restaurants (including the US) that advertised the fact they are using it. And by those standard breeds like Limousine and Blonde d’Aquitaine have some of the best graded meat. The area where I live has an auction that is the largest in Canada, most of our finished cattle go to the US, including many that are Blonds and Limo's.
Just had to brag for a minute. Done now. :)
http://www.blondecattle.org/AboutBlondes/FAQ/tabid/185/Default.aspx

hntrjmprpro45
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:19 AM
I have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology so I always love hearing about exciting new genetic break throughs and possible new species "resurrections". Many ask why would we do this and what is the point to bring back an extinct species? Its simple- to learn more. If you can bring back an extinct species or even just closely replicate it, then you can better understand how/why certain species are the way they are. Not to mention the fact that it is just plain cool... (yes science nerd...). Its really amazing what we can do with genetics now.

MistyBlue
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:52 AM
I don't know much about oxen, but around here at the ox pulls at the local fairs the oxen are freaking huge. I've never seen one under aboout 5'6" at the back and well over 2400 lbs. The folks down the road from me have a pet ox named Bosco. Huge white guy with brown splotches. His back towers over my head, I'm guessing close to 6' at the back. Galopin was 17hh...5'6" at the withers and Bosco was *well* over that in height. His owner said he weighs 3000 lbs.
So not sure what good it is having aurochs, they can't be any bigger I wouldn't think.
As for being meat animals...who the heck wants 2000 lbs of *old* meat? Beef that's not shoe leather tough is butchered well before a steer reaches ox size. IIRC an ox is a castrated steer *over* the age of 4 years, isn't it? Decent beef is half or less than half that age.
Now for fun factor...have to say if I had more room and less brain cells I'd want my own Bosco the Ox. He's wicked cool and sweet as pie. Easy going guy, adores being groomed and hugged and does whatever you tell him to do. 1.5 tons of fun! :D

Tamara in TN
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:14 AM
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4639922]
As for being meat animals...who the heck wants 2000 lbs of *old* meat? Beef that's not shoe leather tough is butchered well before a steer reaches ox size. IIRC an ox is a castrated steer *over* the age of 4 years, isn't it? Decent beef is half or less than half that age.
:D[/QUOTE


not really...good beef is defined mostly by it's aging,how it's fed and then the cooking of same


it's pretty much walmart made myth that the best beef is "x" old or comes from "x" breed...

the italians do have a cooking term that means "young beef" and deonates animals that are older than true veal but not yet grown and it is used in specific for the remnants of the "giants" that are still bred there and take forever to get grown

the reason the US eats cattle at a certain age is that is the profit and loss threshold on the animal....killed any sooner and the premium cuts are not the correct size for the walmart type superstores and fed longer you, as a feed lot, have lost money

for my house,the best steaks we eat come from non breeding 2+yo dairy cattle and most all of macdonalds ground meat is cull dairy cows....

Tamara in TN

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:18 AM
meat gets surprisingly tender when it hangs in the freezer for a while.

Compared to Euopens the US consumes really fresh meat, the Germans let it rest a little longer, and the French keep it almost to the point of rotting. but it's very tender...

But really, these primitive breeds are used for landscape care - after all the majority of the worlds farmland would other wise be covered in forests.

The culls of the herd are usually shipped well before they reach maturity. Who would want a piece of an old cow for dinner...

MistyBlue
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:19 AM
Understood about aged steaks...but to create a new giant breed for more meat on the hoof means profit margins I would think. Feeding and caring for a herd until over the age of 2-3 years old eats up a lot of profit. I wouldn't think they'd be creating a new giant breed to get top quality aged steaks.

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:28 AM
nah, I don't think giant cows are for the industry they are just playing around! ;)

Usually with more size you get more bone, too. So the biggest animals are not necessarily the best producers.

(not to mention the strain on the farm big animals have)

Tamara in TN
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:28 AM
Understood about aged steaks...but to create a new giant breed for more meat on the hoof means profit margins I would think. Feeding and caring for a herd until over the age of 2-3 years old eats up a lot of profit. I wouldn't think they'd be creating a new giant breed to get top quality aged steaks.


but the world is not about steak...in most places in the world steaks are a specialty once or twice a years eats...only we fell compelled to grill them every weekend ;)

the number of steaks that can brought out of an animal are limited...but the roast cuts and ground meat which make up the useful majority of the animal can be increased with double muscling....

Tamara in TN

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:45 AM
I think we are mudding the waters now with giant cow and double muscling.

deltawave
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:39 AM
Did I miss an explanation (with pictures) of what double-muscling is and what causes it?

MistyBlue
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:45 AM
I don't know what causes double muscling but here's a bovine example:
http://porpax.bio.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/neuro/belgian.blue.jpg

And here's a canine example. Belive it or not, that's a Whippet!
(whippet good!)
http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/2007/07/07/whippetdog.jpg

Alagirl
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:14 PM
I don't know what causes double muscling but here's a bovine example:
http://porpax.bio.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/neuro/belgian.blue.jpg (http://porpax.bio.miami.edu/%7Ecmallery/150/neuro/belgian.blue.jpg)

And here's a canine example. Belive it or not, that's a Whippet!
(whippet good!)
http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/2007/07/07/whippetdog.jpg


LOL, the poor dog looks like a cartoon...Spike the dog...:lol:

MistyBlue
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:31 PM
Doesn't it??? I thought it was a hoax/photoshopped picture. But there's a video of this dog. It's a female named Wendy:
http://animal.discovery.com/videos/most-outrageous-wendy-the-whippet.html

deltawave
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:41 PM
OMG, that's horrific. Like animals on dianabols. :eek:

jetsmom
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:34 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, but the breeding huge animals, made me laugh thinking of the Chicken in the Woody Allen movie from the 70's called "Sleeper". Anyone else see it?

Threebars
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:50 PM
And by those standard breeds like Limousine and Blonde d’Aquitaine have some of the best graded meat.
http://www.blondecattle.org/AboutBlondes/FAQ/tabid/185/Default.aspx

*tee-hee* I went and read the link thunking "Long car cows?" - but the link calls them Limousin!

Montanas_Girl
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:24 PM
I assume you are not referring to the breeds that are naturally muscled, like the Blonde d’Aquitaine? ;)


Heavy muscling is not the same thing as double muscling, despite what some breed organizations may claim. ;)

sadlmakr
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:38 PM
My Grandfather had a pair of oxen that were huge. He was given them as calves when he was 12 years old. He trained them to voice commands and when they matured they could move just about anything. He was 16 when they went to work. He was a tall man and they towered over him. But they were "gentle giants". He never loaded more than they could pull so they thought they were invincible. I do not know how long he worked with them. I know it was a long time. I believe they were a Holstien cross.
I think they would be equal to a John Deer tractor now days.
We eat most of them before they get that big now.
Regards,
sadlmakr

farmgirl88
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:22 PM
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;4639922]
As for being meat animals...who the heck wants 2000 lbs of *old* meat? Beef that's not shoe leather tough is butchered well before a steer reaches ox size. IIRC an ox is a castrated steer *over* the age of 4 years, isn't it? Decent beef is half or less than half that age.
:D[/QUOTE


not really...good beef is defined mostly by it's aging,how it's fed and then the cooking of same


it's pretty much walmart made myth that the best beef is "x" old or comes from "x" breed...

the italians do have a cooking term that means "young beef" and deonates animals that are older than true veal but not yet grown and it is used in specific for the remnants of the "giants" that are still bred there and take forever to get grown

the reason the US eats cattle at a certain age is that is the profit and loss threshold on the animal....killed any sooner and the premium cuts are not the correct size for the walmart type superstores and fed longer you, as a feed lot, have lost money

for my house,the best steaks we eat come from non breeding 2+yo dairy cattle and most all of macdonalds ground meat is cull dairy cows....

Tamara in TN

actually live beef animals that are older have much more tough meat. there are more callogen cross links in the msucle tissue of an aged animal. What most people don't know is that grilling meat, or using "dry-heat" to cook meat makes it more tough and it doesnt break down the callogen cross links. using a moist heat, such as a crock-pot to cook meat actually breaks down the cross-links leaving a more tender meat product. Since meat that is harvested from older animals is typically a much more tough meat, cooking it in a crock-pot would be the best candidate.

After harvesting, carcasses go through a process called aging. this process is a natural process that allows the carcass to go through the tenderization process. immediately after harvesting the muscle is trying to maintain homeostasis. Since tissue relies on aerobic respiration, it can no longer be used. the oxygen carrying blood has been removed so now the muscle has switched to anaerobic respiration so it can still metabolize muscle glycogen (energy). ADP & ATP (large forms of energy) are being produced rapidly and muscle glycolysis is occuring. as this occurs, muscle pH is dropping.

ATP is a critical form of energy that is essential to muscle contraction. As ATP levels are depleted within the muscle postmortem (after death), calcium levels increase (the calcium can not be taken away by body processes any longer). As calcium levels rise, the contraction of the muscle can no longer occur and an important process of rigor-mortis or "rigor" occurs. The muscle is now permanently contracted.

carcasses in this aging process are kept at higher temperatures than you would think. if temperatures are too low, ATP will not deplete itself and rigor would set in at the wrong time, or it would set in at all. This is called cold shortening and it is not a good thing.

As the meat hangs for dry-aging or the "hot boxing" the structural proteins within it are degraded leading to a more tender product.

hope that explained it better

farmgirl88
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:26 PM
Did I miss an explanation (with pictures) of what double-muscling is and what causes it?

double muscleing is a genetic trait and is exactly what it says.

a belgian blue bull is a great example:

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/SeniorColloquium/04/Genetic%20Testing/bull.jpg

All breed organizations claim that their breed's meat is the best. its natural. what makes meat the best is the aging processes, the genetics, the feed it was fed, and the environment/handling of the animal, as well as the age. breed can affect it but certintly not as much as the other factors