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View Full Version : Jimmy Doyle charged with sex abuse of a minor



heelsdown
Apr. 22, 2003, 09:38 AM
In the New York Post today, link below.


http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/74030.htm

[This message was edited by heelsdown on Apr. 22, 2003 at 12:47 PM.]

heelsdown
Apr. 22, 2003, 09:38 AM
In the New York Post today, link below.


http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/74030.htm

[This message was edited by heelsdown on Apr. 22, 2003 at 12:47 PM.]

J. Turner
Apr. 22, 2003, 09:52 AM
Yikes ... I'm sure this wouldn't make NY Post status if the Bloombergs weren't involved, but maybe it'll make other adults think twice before becoming involved with students who are minors.

I wonder if the Bloombergs will come out in support of Doyle or divorce themselves from the situation?

And where is this "riding academy" George rides at?

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

doyouevenride
Apr. 22, 2003, 09:58 AM
Who is helping Cody Baird in the jumpers these days? I know it's not Scott Stewart and I don't think it's Jimmy.

bumoyu
Apr. 22, 2003, 10:21 AM
Joe Fargis was helping her in Palm Beach. I don't know if he still is or not.

bumoyu

Blue Devil
Apr. 22, 2003, 10:22 AM
This is not good.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

Blue Devil
Apr. 22, 2003, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doyouevenride:
Who is helping Cody Baird in the jumpers these days? I know it's not Scott Stewart and I don't think it's Jimmy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cody B. hasn't trained with Jimmy for about a year now.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

[This message was edited by Blue Devil on Apr. 22, 2003 at 05:45 PM.]

maggieh
Apr. 22, 2003, 11:53 AM
From the article:

"At 16, Georgina was cited as a top junior hunter...".

That is an amazing honor considering...that she is not a HORSE!! Sorry, just found that to be funny.

Anne FS
Apr. 22, 2003, 12:26 PM
ahhh for the days when hunters *were* hunters and hunter riders were (fox)hunters, too. Used to be the newspaper statement wouldn't have been funny, but factual. Now, you're right, it is funny.

J. Turner
Apr. 22, 2003, 12:27 PM
Good editing catch, maggieh!

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

Lord Helpus
Apr. 22, 2003, 12:40 PM
My guess is that about 70% of the straight trainers on the A circuit could just as easily have been the defendant in this suit....

Wonder why Jimmy was singled out? Maybe he dumped her? Or, even worse -- Maybe he DIDN"T and Daddy doesn't want little Susie to one day marry a horse trainer (HORRORS!).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always live within my means, even if I have to borrow to do it.

buryinghill1
Apr. 22, 2003, 12:48 PM
"...North Castle Justice Court on a charge of endangering the welfare of a minor and two counts of sexual abuse.
He pleaded not guilty to the charges, all misdemeanors..."

How repulsive. Misdemeanors. Just what does an adult have to do to a child to get a serious penalty?

deltawave
Apr. 22, 2003, 01:04 PM
He has been CHARGED, not convicted. There are any number of felony-type offenses re: sex abuse. I'm no expert but stuff like lewd comments, etc. might be misdemeanors. Not defending it, of course, but remember the "innocent 'til proven guilty" thing...

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
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starlite
Apr. 22, 2003, 02:20 PM
Anyone else think the headline is SO stupid? "Kid-sex Charge for Horse Man"? Yuck.

Medievalist
Apr. 22, 2003, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starlite:
Anyone else think the headline is SO stupid? "Kid-sex Charge for Horse Man"? Yuck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed that too. I mean, come on, how hard would it be to get a better headline. "Horse Man"??!?!?!?

June 10th, 2003. D(idi)-Day.....Le Retour Part II
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montegobay
Apr. 22, 2003, 03:07 PM
What does Georgina's sister have to do with the story (other than family link)? I can understand the article explaining that Georgina formerly rode with JD, but does it matter that big sis works at city hall? It will be interesting to see, however, if the Bloombergs have anything to say.

M&M
Apr. 22, 2003, 05:39 PM
I know this is very off-topic but a friend asked this week in Culpeper, is Cody Baird still a junior?

Blue Devil
Apr. 22, 2003, 08:28 PM
Georgina currently rides with Jimmy Doyle.

Cody Baird is still a junior. She is 16 I believe.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

Astraled
Apr. 22, 2003, 10:49 PM
Blech. Coaches carrying on with underage students is such a major abuse of trust. The more the cops bust, the better.

I just hope Mr.Doyle didn't do it and is cleared of these charges.

__________________________
If you cheapskate me into hell, I'll haunt you good

mroades
Apr. 23, 2003, 04:32 AM
I saw last night on Celebrity Justice (yes, insomnia is a terrible thing) that Mr. Doyle's 50k bond had "been paid by someone in the Bloonber family". interesting....

mroades
Apr. 23, 2003, 04:34 AM
Bloonber = Bloomberg...uggh no typist here

HSM
Apr. 23, 2003, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:


I wonder if the Bloombergs will come out in support of Doyle or divorce themselves from the situation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say that this constitutes support: story in local paper (http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/042303/b0123trainer.html)

This article goes into a little more detail about the charges, such as: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> James Doyle, 48, faces two counts each of second- and third-degree sexual abuse and one count of endangering the welfare of a child. Details of the allegations were sealed and were not discussed in court last night. Second-degree sexual abuse often involves subjecting a minor to sexual contact. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, and I just loved this characterization: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> tony Westchester horse country<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

adhunter
Apr. 23, 2003, 06:16 AM
The kid is only 14 years old. I don't think it has to do with "status" here.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
My guess is that about 70% of the straight trainers on the A circuit could just as easily have been the defendant in this suit....

Wonder why Jimmy was singled out? Maybe he dumped her? Or, even worse -- Maybe he DIDN"T and Daddy doesn't want little Susie to one day marry a horse trainer (HORRORS!).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always live within my means, even if I have to borrow to do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Janet
Apr. 23, 2003, 06:27 AM
From the first article<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... Armonk, about 20 minutes from North Castle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Someone is weak on their geography.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

HSM
Apr. 23, 2003, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adhunter:
The kid is only 14 years old<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not in either of the articles which say the records are sealed. Where did you get this info?


EDIT: Answering my own question here - I see it is in today's NY Post article which is linked in the next post below mine. Of course I agree with "innocent until proven guilty", but I will add that the district attorney involved has quite a reputation for successfully prosecuting abusers. Gives one pause. Ugh.
------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

[This message was edited by HSM on Apr. 23, 2003 at 10:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by HSM on Apr. 23, 2003 at 10:00 AM.]

Reckoning
Apr. 23, 2003, 06:54 AM
Today's "News" (http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/74136.htm)

GotSpots
Apr. 23, 2003, 07:21 AM
That lawyer has to be north of 450$/hour. I'd be very much surprised if Doyle is paying his own legal fees...

fullmoon fever
Apr. 23, 2003, 07:55 AM
If it is true, I hope he gets exactly what he deserves.

There was a situation in the Toronto area that went on for many, many years before enough parents finally took action against the person in question that the family $$ couldn't keep him from being prosecuted.

nollekins
Apr. 23, 2003, 08:19 AM
"Horse-crazy Georgina" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Yeah, it's great to see a talented athlete presented like that.
As for Jimmy Doyle--with Janine Pirro after him, if he is guilty he will pay, I'd wager.

HFSH
Apr. 23, 2003, 08:30 AM
Geez give me a heart attack! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Jim Doyle is the Governor of Wisconsin. I'm glad it is NOT him!!

Home of the RPSI & AWR stallion Remarkable (http://www.hopefulfarm.com) | YaBB me Baby! (http://www.hopefulfarm.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi) | 2 Freestyle's due in May!

Anne FS
Apr. 23, 2003, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
I noticed that too. I mean, come on, how hard would it be to get a better headline. "Horse Man"??!?!?!?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet it was originally "Horseman" and got split.

Anne FS
Apr. 23, 2003, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nollekins:
"Horse-crazy Georgina" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Yeah, it's great to see a talented athlete presented like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. Yuck. The Journal News article linked by HSM refers to her as an "equestrienne." Double yuck. Lendon Gray, however, does get to be an "equestrian."

Anne [who agrees with the thespians who plead that all actors should be called 'actors' (suffix 'or' means 'one who') and not have the female members referred to as an 'actress.']

J. Turner
Apr. 23, 2003, 09:18 AM
mroades -- I thought you were going to bed. Bad girl.

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

Portia
Apr. 23, 2003, 09:21 AM
"Horse-Power Perv"? Oye.

Yuck, what a headline. Of course, it is the New York Post, a half-step up from the Inquirer and the Star. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

J. Turner
Apr. 23, 2003, 09:27 AM
5 counts! If he is guilty, I hope he gets what's coming to him. But Good Lord, if he's not, what a horrible thing to go through.

I'm surprised such a public family would support and stay so close to the situation, though.

Anything on Towerheads?

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

ellie
Apr. 23, 2003, 10:40 AM
Having known J.D for over 10 years, i have no doubt about his character. Hopefully when this is all over, people will still stand by him and the good reputation he has developed here in the States, I cannot believe the parents of this girl would want her to go through this over such a ridiculous charge, suspicious it is done one year after he leaves their employment!!maybe more to it than meets the eye, J.D had the audacity to remain in the North East area and train!!....Showjumping Moms'!!!

Weatherford
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:18 AM
They will probably simply send him packing back to Ireland and not allow him to return...

IMHO - nope, I won't go there to say what should be done to ANYONE who sexually abuses - or attempts to sexually abuse a CHILD!!!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Blue Devil
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:29 AM
I think it is very clear to those in the know or even those who do a little bit of math/figuring out, who brought these charges against him.

I think this will become an infamous case in equestrian lawsuits. Just something I anticipate.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

buryinghill1
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
Anything on Towerheads?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wise guy. Somethin' tells me I don't think we'll see this tidbit o' legal news mentioned. Even by Ms. Manners http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

lauriep
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:31 AM
Well, before planning his punishment, don't you think it would be fair to see him CONVICTED first?

I've never seen a board more prone to punishing someone just on a newpaper article or someone else's say-so. SOMETIMES these things prove to be something VERY different than what they are presented to be.

So, let's reserve judgement, hmmm?

Laurie

Anne FS
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
I'm surprised such a public family would support and stay so close to the situation, though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Think about it. It's someone you've known for years. If you, and more important to you, if your daughter knows, likes, and trusts this friend, why wouldn't you stand by him and help him?

I can see how now that he's had the public support, he may perhaps voluntarily distance himself from them until this is over, just to be nice (he may have already done that). You know, appreciate that they stood up for him and then pull back for their sake, just because of the nasty way the press will be to the Bloombergs. But HE would be pulling back, not them.

Anyway, nice to know your friends aren't going to dump you before you are convicted of anything!

Blue Devil
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Well, before planning his punishment, don't you think it would be fair to see him CONVICTED first?

I've never seen a board more prone to punishing someone just on a newpaper article or someone else's say-so. SOMETIMES these things prove to be something VERY different than what they are presented to be.

So, let's reserve judgement, hmmm?

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Laurie. I agree.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

Portia
Apr. 23, 2003, 11:47 AM
We're allowed to discuss the situation here under the COTH BB rules since it's the subject of filed charges and in published reports. However, as lauriep said, let's please try to remember and respect the "innocent until proven guilty" part of our legal system.

Also, do not repeat any gossip outside of what is in the publc record or use any names other than those publicly reported. Specifically, do not post your speculation about who the accuser/alleged victim may be. The court and charging authorities have determined that such information is not public and should be sealed.

J. Turner
Apr. 23, 2003, 04:48 PM
lauriep -- I agree about innocent until proven guilty, but if the papers can print it, then I think it's okay to post "in general" about such cases or to state opinion based on what was printed by a reliable news source. Unfortunately, the media makes people guilty first. If we wanted people to truly remain innocent, then the accuseds names should be confidential until proven guilty. I think it's okay to mull over the facts of the case here. Don't you agree?

BTW == who is bringing out the possible minor in the case here? Is that NOT speculation? You've practically named the child. That is wrong.

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

J. Turner
Apr. 23, 2003, 04:51 PM
Anne FS - you have a very good point. And you're right -- I'd be very grateful to friends who stuck by me at my lowest point, especially if were innocent.

I'm just saying with all the "spin" and image conciousness in politics today, it surprises me that they'd stay close to it. That's a generalization about politics though.

"And Max said, 'NO!'"
-- Maurice Sendak

"When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
-- Shakespeare, Henry V

MAD
Apr. 23, 2003, 05:16 PM
Innocent until proven Guilty. This is AMERICA.

And look at our SOURCE: A New York TABLOID. Honestly, The NY Post and the NY News are just a step above the Enquirer or the Globe.

It is VERY EASY to accuse ANYONE of abuse these days, remember...

HSM
Apr. 23, 2003, 05:35 PM
The accusation was not made by the newspapers - charges were filed in court.

But nevertheless, innocent until proven guilty - only time will tell, right?

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

JulieMontgomery
Apr. 23, 2003, 06:05 PM
Yes indeed.... Jeanine Pirro is one tough cookie. I have followed her career with great interest.

lauriep
Apr. 24, 2003, 06:33 AM
J. Turner, talking about the case is one thing. I was objecting to the potential punishments mentioned.

And I agree that this kind of charge is very easy to bring (like rape charges can be for scorned women) and difficult to disprove.

I prefer to withhold ANY judgement until the ALL the facts come out and he is given an opportunity to defend himself.

I am not one of those people who immediately condemns as soon as I hear "child abuse" or "rape." I know how cruel people can be and the lengths to which they will go to hurt an innocent person with false charges. I think that the recent spate of DNA testing liberated several "rapists" who were proven to have been innocent, and one caused a tearful recanting of charges by the "victim", who wasn't.

Laurie

buryinghill1
Apr. 24, 2003, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep: .
I prefer to withhold ANY judgement until the ALL the facts come out and he is given an opportunity to defend himself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is why it is ironic that this thread is allowed to live.
A thread which named an accused thief (not convicted, but was arrested) was promptly deleted.
Knowing the person makes seeing his name "up in lights" really heartbreaking.

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 09:16 AM
buryinghill, I don't know anything about the thread you mentioned about the accused thief, so I can't address why it may have been deleted. I also know nothing about Mr. Doyle, but I do symnpathize with the pain of seeing a friend or acquaintance face such a situation.

The COTH BB rule is that you can't post accusations of criminal conduct against an individual unless the alleged conduct is the subject of a pending criminal charge (or conviction) that is publicly reported. This meets those requirements, since the accused has been officially charged with the alleged offenses and those charges have been widely reported in various newspapers (one step up from the tabloids though they may be).

peepie
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:11 AM
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Ghazzu
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not at all a commentary on blaming *anyone* in the case that started this, but...

Yes.
We should.
If for no other reason than the simple fact that an adult ought to have more common sense, common decency, and ability to restrain inappropriate impulses than a 14 year old.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

KJoy
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

My horse bucked off your honor student!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, without doubt the blame MUST to be put on the adult. If you are 18 or older, you have to know that having sexual contact with a minor will be considered illegal. If we do not have this law, any adult can have sex with any child, and can then lay the blame on the child. No, it is not appropriate to even suggest that the child, the victim, (and yes, a 14 year old IS a child) had any blame whatsoever.

Now, if any other adult had something to do with some type of "set up", then that adult should suffer consequences. That individual cannot be allowed to put a child in such a situation either.

rockstar
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not at all a commentary on blaming *anyone* in the case that started this, but...

Yes.
We should.
If for no other reason than the simple fact that an adult ought to have more common sense, common decency, and ability to restrain inappropriate impulses than a 14 year old.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know NOTHING about him OR the girl, so this is by no means a comment on either one, but a general comment about such cases, just for argumen't sake...

Ghazzu, I'm with Seahorse... don't underestimate how much a 14 year old on the circuit may be 14 going on 25. Not that, even in such a situation, the adult still wouldn't be liable for blame, but certainly, it can't be assumed it was a one way street on the adult's part.

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KJoy
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KJoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

My horse bucked off your honor student!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, without doubt the blame MUST to be put on the adult. If you are 18 or older, you have to know that having sexual contact with a minor _will_ be considered illegal. If we do not have this law, any adult can have sex with any child, and can then lay the blame on the child. No, it is not appropriate to even _suggest_ that the child, the victim, (and yes, a 14 year old IS a child) had any blame whatsoever.

Now, if any other adult had something to do with some type of "set up", then that adult should suffer consequences. That individual cannot be allowed to put a child in such a situation either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To suggest that this 14 year-old child had any blame at all, is, in my opinion, a terrible thing to say. If the allegations are proven true, then a vulnerable child has been taken advantage of, and is entirely the fault of the adult.

KJoy
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not at all a commentary on blaming *anyone* in the case that started this, but...

Yes.
We should.
If for no other reason than the simple fact that an adult ought to have more common sense, common decency, and ability to restrain inappropriate impulses than a 14 year old.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know NOTHING about him OR the girl, so this is by no means a comment on either one, but a general comment about such cases, just for argumen't sake...

Ghazzu, I'm with Seahorse... don't underestimate how much a 14 year old on the circuit may be 14 going on 25. Not that, even in such a situation, the adult still wouldn't be liable for blame, but certainly, it can't be assumed it was a one way street on the adult's part.

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my goodness. It is still a 14 year old!! She is not 25, even if she may look like one, or act like one! Please do not forget that. Any adult who has sexual contact with her, fully understnding the laws of this country, is abusing her. Period. And any adult who chooses to ignore this law is guilty.

If this were your daughter, I bet no one would even suggest that she was even a little bit at fault, and rightly so. Put yourself in her and her parents' shoes.

HSM
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:


.....it can't be assumed it was a one way street on the adult's part.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't matter at all - the adult is the one (in such hypothetical situations) who is responsible for putting up the stop signs and ensuring that nothing untoward happens. Period.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Heidi
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:04 AM
Yes, a 14 year old may be sexually provocative but, good lord, her actions are not motivated by sexual desire at that age. Try insecurity, vulnerability, the need for approval, acceptance, the gamut of emotions that define adolescence. And without a doubt, any adult should well be aware of the difference between sexual interest and vulnerability - especially when they've made a career of working with the young.

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:19 AM
We all know as a practical matter that there are a whole lot of teens out there having sex and sexual contact with one another and nobody is bringing charges. However, when an adult is involved, that's a whole different story.

Not in reference to these particular allegations, but whatever the relative sophistication of any alleged victim, the fact is that the law has determined that the age of consent for sexual activity is somewhere between 16 and 18 (depending on the state law), and an adult having sexual contact with an underage individual is a crime by the adult. Anyone below the age of consent cannot, as a matter of law, agree to participate in sexual activity with another person. The law is pretty clear in this regard, and everybody knows the old line about "16 will get you 20."

So I agree completely with Ghazzu and Kjoy that any adult who knowingly engages in sexual contact with someone who is underage is legally (and morally) responsible for his or her actions, regardless of the "provocation" or supposed willingness of the underage party. It is part of the responsibility of being an adult to resist such temptations.

lauriep
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:23 AM
That is, of course, if she is telling the truth. It is NOT beyond the realm of possibility for a 14 y.o. to fabricate something, either.

Once again, until all the FACTS are out there, don't condemn the man just because he is the adult. There may never have BEEN any sexual contact.

Laurie

Ghazzu
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
Ghazzu, I'm with Seahorse... don't underestimate how much a 14 year old on the circuit may be 14 going on 25. Not that, even in such a situation, the adult still wouldn't be liable for blame, but certainly, it can't be assumed it was a one way street on the adult's part.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't care if a 14 year old ran into the adult's bedroom stark naked, holding a bottle of Maker's Mark in one hand, and a joint in the other.
It is still the responsiblity of the adult to throw a blanket over the child, and steer them to the door. At the very least.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Moesha
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:29 AM
Excellent post Heidi.

Age may not preclude one's outward behavior or attempt at a certain behavior, but that does not mean it should be exploited.

We have laws to protect children....even from themselves. An Adult cannot no matter how interested or aroused, assume a child's sexual interest is acceptable.

That said punishments and guilt verdicts are completely unfair. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Let the investigation, trial and fact gathering and analyzing determine what happened or didn't.

As was pointed out charges can be brought up falsely or misrepresentative of the facts.

I hope that he is innocent and that his name can be cleared.

I also hope an not unfairly to him or his life and reputation any less....but that a 14 year old child was not robbed of her innocence and childhood by any such act.

Children are precious and they deserve to be children, look at the world around us..children are asked to grow up so fast...what is the rush...think back on how wonderful childhood is..besides the obvious horror of such crimes the beauty of childhood should not be a victim as well.

ErinB
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:35 AM
This is WAY off topic, but

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...where her older sister, Emma, 23, works as an aide to her father for a dollar-a-year salary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dollar a year? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Erin B #1/sillypiggy.com (http://www.sillypiggy.com)
I begged you not to go, I begged you, I pleaded, claimed you as my only hope and watched the floor as you retreated.

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
That is, of course, if she is telling the truth. It is NOT beyond the realm of possibility for a 14 y.o. to fabricate something, either.

Once again, until all the FACTS are out there, don't condemn the man just because he is the adult. There may never have BEEN any sexual contact.

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, Laurie, and wasn't making a comment about this particular case. I don't think Heidi, Ghazzu, or Kjoy were referring to this particular case either, but were instead speaking to the general issue of an adult placing blame on the underage person for conduct that actually has occurred.

I've never met him, but I too hope the man is innocent and the alleged contact never occurred, for everyone's sake.

Alagirl
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
This is WAY off topic, but

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...where her older sister, Emma, 23, works as an aide to her father for a dollar-a-year salary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dollar a year? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Erin B #1/http://www.sillypiggy.com
I begged you not to go, I begged you, I pleaded, claimed you as my only hope and watched the floor as you retreated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the Ethic thing.
An elected official cannot or should not hire family into payed possitions under his/her control, conflict of interest.

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
A dollar a year? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
She doesn't need the money from a salary, but if they pay her something, even a token payment of a dollar a year, then she is legally an employee rather than just a volunteer.

A contract needs to be supported by what is called "consideration" to be binding. It's the same concept as if you want to give something away but want the transaction to be a legally binding transaction rather than just a gift. So you have the recipient pay you $1.00 for it as "consideration" and the deal is a binding "sale" rather than a gift.

rockstar
Apr. 24, 2003, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KJoy:


If this were your daughter, I bet no one would even suggest that she was even a little bit at fault, and rightly so. Put yourself in her and her parents' shoes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, what I'm arguing, is that I can't put myself in their shoes without knowing them and him. Is she a 14 year old who just last week put her Breyer horses in the attic and bought her first bra? Or, is she a 14 year old who has already had some experience with the opposite sex and makes Brittany Spears look demure? Are her parents the show parents that live their wonderul Westchester lives, write the checks, rely on the nanny, and pay no mind to what's going on? Or are they the show parents that keep close watch and have a cold drink and a washcloth waiting next to the SUV at the side of the ring?

I am simply saying that, without knowing the parties involved or the circumstances (like many of you), I can't assume absolute blame on his part, if any sexual encounters did, in fact, occur. That is what a jury is for.

For those out there who DO know the parties involved, I trust that their opinions on how the blame should be distributed is a lot more correct than any view I (or many other people here) can put forth.

And, as for the politics of it all, I'm no big fan of Mike Bloomberg, but it shows political strength and character, I feel, if you hold a high public office and you stand by people you believe in, especially when a lot could be at stake. However, Georgina and her mother standing by him, should, perhaps, be seen as different than Mayor Bloomberg standing behind him.

I don't speak to my father- if he was a public figure and I did something that his advisors thought wasn't very politically smart, I really wouldn't give a s***.

In any case, I'm just procrastinating at work and playing devil's advocate! I am NOT defending him, if the accusations are true!

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rockstar
Apr. 24, 2003, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alagirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
This is WAY off topic, but

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...where her older sister, Emma, 23, works as an aide to her father for a dollar-a-year salary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A dollar a year? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~Erin B #1/http://www.sillypiggy.com
I begged you not to go, I begged you, I pleaded, claimed you as my only hope and watched the floor as you retreated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the Ethic thing.
An elected official cannot or should not hire family into payed possitions under his/her control, conflict of interest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not really true actually. Plenty of children of elected officials work on their staff. And espcially their campaigns. Whether or not it's nepostism varies from case to case.

Smart, intelligent, college educated child working for elected offical parent VS. idiot, beer guzzling, drop-out child getting job with elected offical parent kind of thing.

In this case, however, when the elected official is a billionaire, i think it can be seen as a "gift" to the city that the child in question is working full time without an expense to the city.

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KJoy
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KJoy:


If this were your daughter, I bet no one would even suggest that she was even a little bit at fault, and rightly so. Put yourself in her and her parents' shoes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, what I'm arguing, is that I _can't_ put myself in their shoes without knowing them and him. Is she a 14 year old who just last week put her Breyer horses in the attic and bought her first bra? Or, is she a 14 year old who has already had some experience with the opposite sex and makes Brittany Spears look demure? Are her parents the show parents that live their wonderul Westchester lives, write the checks, rely on the nanny, and pay no mind to what's going on? Or are they the show parents that keep close watch and have a cold drink and a washcloth waiting next to the SUV at the side of the ring?

I am simply saying that, without knowing the parties involved or the circumstances (like many of you), I can't assume _absolute_ blame on his part, if any sexual encounters did, in fact, occur. That is what a jury is for.

For those out there who DO know the parties involved, I trust that their opinions on how the blame should be distributed is a lot more correct than any view I (or many other people here) can put forth.

And, as for the politics of it all, I'm no big fan of Mike Bloomberg, but it shows political strength and character, I feel, if you hold a high public office and you stand by people you believe in, especially when a lot could be at stake. However, Georgina and her mother standing by him, should, perhaps, be seen as different than Mayor Bloomberg standing behind him.

I don't speak to my father- if he was a public figure and I did something that his advisors thought wasn't very politically smart, I really wouldn't give a s***.

In any case, I'm just procrastinating at work and playing devil's advocate! I am NOT defending him, if the accusations are true!

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't matter what "type" of 14 year old she is, it's the fact that she is 14 that matters!! She can be as immature or as mature and provocative as she wants, but that still does not excuse any adult from having a sexual encounter with her. Your comments are like saying a woman is asking to be raped if she wears a provocative outfit and flirts a lot. That is NOT RIGHT! It is pretty simple - if an adult has sexual encounters with a minor, or has sex with a woman against her will, they will suffer the consequences. No matter what the woman or girl in question looked like, acted like, or wore! How can anyone argue against this??

I certainly am not passing judgment on this case in particular - obviously any guilt or innocence has yet to be decided, and I sincerely hope that it did not ever even happen, for the sakes of all involved.

Weatherford
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:22 PM
Well said, Kjoy.

Agree.

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MKM
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:31 PM
well said, kjoy. i dont care if the child came onto the man 17 times in 17 different ways, it would still be the man's fault. i have no speculation about jd, do not know him at all, but i'm just saying that hypothetically, a 14 year old is a 14 year old. britney spears look-alike or annie look-alike. doesnt matter.

Seven
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:34 PM
rockstar and like-minded others...I don't mean to sound harsh, but it really doesn't matter what you think or how you'd like to characterize the child. The fact remains that the the citizens of the state of New York have decided through the New York Criminal Code that if one party is 14 and one party is over 18, then sexual contact is a crime. It's as simple as that and it's not a secret. The conduct, experience, education, demeanor, state of dress or undress of the 14 year old party doesn't matter at all. I'm sure you know, rockstar, that if you don't like the law, then you should probably work to elect officials who will write laws which take into account more factors. However, as it stands in NY state today and on the day the crime alledgely took place, what was charged is a crime and it's the senior party that is accountable for that crime.

Since the ADA's in this conversation are taking a bit of a bashing here too, I'll just say that I used to work with several members of the Westchester County DA's office, and IME, they were all individuals of good moral character who would never 'jump the gun' and file unsubstantiated charges. But I don't know the details of this case.

Last comment, while the Post and the Daily News are well known rags in NY barely above tabloid status...the Journal News (which also is covering the story and is the link that HSM provided) is a respectable Westchester paper. Though what the papers published is all a matter of public record anyway.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

HSM
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:42 PM
Are you KIDDING me????!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is she a 14 year old who just last week put her Breyer horses in the attic and bought her first bra? Or, is she a 14 year old who has already had some experience with the opposite sex and makes Brittany Spears look demure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really cannot fathom what difference any of that makes. As many of us has said, 14 is 14, and an adult is an adult, according to both the law AND the morals of most people.

And did you REALLY mean to say this??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are her parents the show parents that live their wonderul Westchester lives, write the checks, rely on the nanny, and pay no mind to what's going on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's generalizing and judging now? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I DO hope these charges are false - but I am also afraid that if they are not, we will be seeing the same "blaming the victim" syndrome even then. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

peepie
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:47 PM
If this were your daughter, I bet no one would even suggest that she was even a little bit at fault, and rightly so. Put yourself in her and her parents' shoes.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ here...I've been in her shoes, been at fault for instigating and relentless pursual...and all the while lying that I was of "legal" age for such behavior. Now, is the man still at fault?

My horse bucked off your honor student!

Riley Rider
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:54 PM
Are we to assume that the hypothetical abuser knew said 14 year old and was aware that she was underage? It's not THAT far-fetched, there are some 14 year olds out there who look more mature than me, and I'm in my 30's!

Obviously there is not question of giult if this fictional person knew the child's age and proceeded with a sexual act. However, there's a HUGE problem with her calling abuse if he'd never met her before and she looked the part of an adult.

Just adding another element to the argument...

MKM
Apr. 24, 2003, 01:59 PM
ok, seahorse, you have a point in a hypothetical situation. if a girl could pass for 23 and told the guy she was 23, then yes, i can see how we'd feel that she is at fault (although i have no idea what the actual law says there).

but the situation that sparked this whole conversation involves a student and a coach. if she's 14, i doubt she could pass for 18. even if she could, he's her coach, he knows how old she is.

and, we've all just assumed it's a "she", i guess it's possible it could be a "he". that happens. maybe it said in one of the articles it was a "she" and i just didnt look closely enough.

Heidi
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:02 PM
Trainers, teachers, various instructors are, in virtually every single instance, well aware of their pupil/student/player's age. In this specific case, I am CERTAIN that her age was no secret.

Two years ago, the teacher at our kids' former school was charged with 15 counts of sexual assault on female students ranging from 15-17. Contact ranged from explicit emails to actual intercourse. Here's the kicker. Several years prior to his arrest, a student came forward with the same allegations. Rather than suspending or firing the teacher, or at least launching a criminal investigation, he was warned and allowed to remain on the job -- where he picked up where he left off. It was only when a sufficient number of students came forward the second time, and the school realized that their coffers would be threatened by enraged parents, that they contacted police. I am also left wondering why the first student's parents did not file criminal charges. Shame? A sense of internalized guilt? Fear? That we continue to live in a climate where the victim internalizes even an iota of blame is tragic.

BTW, the argument that a 14 year old child may well be sexually mature is the basis on which NAMBLA exploits its pedophilic practises.

rockstar
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
rockstar and like-minded others...I don't mean to sound harsh, but it really doesn't matter what you think or how you'd like to characterize the child. The fact remains that the the citizens of the state of New York have decided through the New York Criminal Code that if one party is 14 and one party is over 18, then sexual contact is a crime. It's as simple as that and it's not a secret. The conduct, experience, education, demeanor, state of dress or undress of the 14 year old party doesn't matter _at all_. I'm sure you know, rockstar, that if you don't like the law, then you should probably work to elect officials who will write laws which take into account more factors. However, as it stands in NY state today and on the day the crime alledgely took place, what was charged is a crime and it's the senior party that is accountable for that crime.

Since the ADA's in this conversation are taking a bit of a bashing here too, I'll just say that I used to work with several members of the Westchester County DA's office, and IME, they were all individuals of good moral character who would never 'jump the gun' and file unsubstantiated charges. But I don't know the details of this case.

Last comment, while the Post and the _Daily_ News are well known rags in NY barely above tabloid status...the _Journal News_ (which also is covering the story and is the link that HSM provided) is a respectable Westchester paper. Though what the papers published is all a matter of public record anyway.

****
http://www.nyhr.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, well, first of all, on a sidenote Serendipity, I work on a political campaign now, my last job was on a poltical campaign, and I have been involved in electoral politics for a few years now. So, please don't think that I'm bashing the law and not doing anything to try to change it. I do what I do to elect guys I believe will pass legislation that will make this country a better place (not that it's not already great!).

That said, I'm not not bashing the law. And I agree there should be a laws forbidding sexual misconduct, including sex with minors.

And I, by no means whatsoever, know much of anything about NY State criminal law re: sexual misconduct with minors.

I am just saying that, to me (and though the law IS the law, we all know the value of the court of public opinion too), it's one thing to make unwanted sexual advances with a minor and another to simply have sexual relations with a minor (that is, relations minus the "unwanted" part).

That "unwanted" makes a big difference.

And, it's one thing to prey upon some innocent little girl with, at best, a crush, and another thing to have a sexual relationship with someone that may, like I said before, be 14 going on 25.

If, as a 14 year old, I had gone after my trainer and we had had some kind of something go on, that would have been wrong. On BOTH of our parts. More so on his, yes- because he would have been the adult and I the kid.

Had that "something" been unwanted on my part, that would have transferred much more of the fault to him.

Please, do not think that I am excusing someone who makes unwanted sexual advances!!!

Regardless, you are all incredibly right in that any man so many years older than a 14 year old girl is a schmuck (to put it nicely!) to be involved with that girl sexually... but as to how MUCH of a schmuck he is and how badly he should be punished? We're talking shades of gray, not black and white. And THAT is where all of the circumstances of the situation (that I mentioned) figure in.

That's my spiel. Again, i would just like to reiterate that this is speaking purely in hypotheticals for debate's sake, I don't know these parties involved!!! I'm just trying to see it from all angels and not trying to look at it as a black and white issue.

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Riley Rider
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MKM:
but the situation that sparked this whole conversation involves a student and a coach. if she's 14, i doubt she could pass for 18. even if she could, he's her coach, he knows how old she is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This must be insider information because I didn't read that he was the child's trainer anywhere... It just said that he is accused of a sexual misdemeaner with a minor from Greenwich, CN

JER
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:11 PM
Statuatory rape is only concerned with the victim vis a vis his/her age. The age of the victim means the victim has no legal standing to consent to the situation.

The way the law sees it, it's the adult's responsibility to know that their own actions are legal. Also, as in child abuse/neglect cases, the PD/county/city can bring charges against the adult; the child or child's parents do not have to press charges for the case to move through the courts. Most states (if not all) have a mandate to investigate any allegations of statuatory rape (as with child abuse).

Heidi
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:11 PM
Rockstar, do you know any adolescent teens? Have you spent sufficient time with them, hearing of their crushes on musicians and actors, watching them primp for a party with giddy delight, witnessed how they agonize over their skin, clothes, popularity? Because if you have, you'd probably understand well that statements such as the one below are outrageous:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And, it's one thing to prey upon some innocent little girl with, at best, a crush, and another thing to have a sexual relationship with someone that may, like I said before, be 14 going on 25. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really believe that a sexually provocative 14 year old is acting out of lust and the understanding of a no-strings attached sexual affair more so than a desparate need to fill an emotional void?

rockstar
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:
Are you KIDDING me????!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is she a 14 year old who just last week put her Breyer horses in the attic and bought her first bra? Or, is she a 14 year old who has already had some experience with the opposite sex and makes Brittany Spears look demure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really cannot fathom what difference any of that makes. As many of us has said, 14 is 14, and an adult is an adult, according to both the law AND the morals of most people.

And did you REALLY mean to say this??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are her parents the show parents that live their wonderul Westchester lives, write the checks, rely on the nanny, and pay no mind to what's going on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's generalizing and judging now? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I DO hope these charges are false - but I am also afraid that if they are not, we will be seeing the same "blaming the victim" syndrome even then. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, just to clarify again, because I think I'm coming off as defending the perpetrator of the crime, if the crime actually took place.

I'm not blaming the victim!

I'm just not blaming the "molester"!

Here's the thing- I'm not blaming ANYone!! That's my point- no one who isn't aware of all of the different circumstances has the right to blame here!!

And yes, of course I was generalizing- I was doing it to illustrate that there are a gazaliion factors that led up to what happened, whether or not what happened is truth or lies. And those factors, i believe, should be taken into consideratoin when a case like this is considered.

And, I imagine, when it's time for trial, all of those factors WILL be considered by both the prosecutors and the defense attorneys.

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HSM
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:16 PM
Heidi I was just about to respond with amazement to the same exact quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And, it's one thing to prey upon some innocent little girl with, at best, a crush, and another thing to have a sexual relationship with someone that may, like I said before, be 14 going on 25.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My response is: No, it's not "another thing" at all. A sexual relationship with a minor is a sexual relationship with a minor - period.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

HSM
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:17 PM
rockstar, I guess we're going to just have to agree to disagree.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Seven
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:19 PM
rockstar, I didn't mean to bash you (or anyone else) at all...I did remember that you had a job in politics from some old threads, so that's why I wrote "as you know..." trying to acknowledge that I know you know that's the best way to change things you don't like. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In my drive to be brief, I hope I didn't slight you.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

starlite
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BTW, the argument that a 14 year old child may well be sexually mature is the basis on which NAMBLA exploits its pedophilic practises. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean the North American Marlon Brando Lookalikes Association?

Molly99
Apr. 24, 2003, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MKM:
ok, seahorse, you have a point in a hypothetical situation. if a girl could pass for 23 and told the guy she was 23, then yes, i can see how we'd feel that she is at fault (although i have no idea what the actual law says there).

but the situation that sparked this whole conversation involves a student and a coach. if she's 14, i doubt she could pass for 18. even if she could, he's her coach, he knows how old she is.

and, we've all just assumed it's a "she", i guess it's possible it could be a "he". that happens. maybe it said in one of the articles it was a "she" and i just didnt look closely enough.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say that it was a trainer/student relationship. That is only speculation.

Many people are assuming that is the case, but no where, unless I missed something, does it state that he was the trainer of the minor.

Considering that is has been at least 2 years since he had a student of age 14, it just doesn't seem to fit.

Molly99
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:01 PM
Another thought for the lawyers to answer

Exactly how "far" does the relationship have to go to have a charge of misdemeanor? I understand that ANY contact can bring a charge regarding a minor, especially if the parents wanted to push it, but could a simple kiss be enough, or must the "relationship" have gone further.

Hope that makes sense.

nollekins
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:21 PM
Starlite http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif. As a matter of fact, I bet the members of NAMBLA DO look a lot like Marlon Brando!! (As he is now, of course!)

ClemsonGraduateRider
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:27 PM
Rockstar - I agree with you. I find it hard to put the blame on ANYone at this point in the game. I'm certainly not saying it's the victim's fault but like you, I am also not saying it's entirely the abuser's fault either.

As an adult should he have known better? In the circumstance where he knew she was 14, yes. In the circumstance where she lied and said she was 18, no. None of us know the exact circumstances so when we post our emotions its probably a good idea to state which of the above circumstances you are assuming it is. I don't care what any of you say, there are some damn rotten ass children out there who will do whatever they can to trash an adult's reputation, and while I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, none of us know that. And if any of us do we are certainly not at liberty to say it now are we.

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

JER
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:40 PM
Molly99, the difference between felony and misdemeanor in a statuatory rape case varies from state to state. One factor is usually the age difference between the adult and the minor -- 4 years or less is a misdemeanor, over that it's a felony. This is to distinguish older teen-younger teen relationships from cases involving older adults and minors.

rottenrobbie
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:58 PM
Wow, this is one scary topic....even if the child was not a student, I do assume she is an equestrian....MOST LIKELY SHOWING IN THE JUNIOR DIVISION! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out she's under age! SHAME on the adult!!!

Beezer
Apr. 24, 2003, 03:59 PM
Did I miss something? (Always a possibility. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) The articles posted early on in the thread said very plainly that no sexual intercourse had occurred and that it was more a case of inappropriate sexual contact (whatever that may have been).

Which is why I'm now a bit confused as to why we're talking about statutory rape and sexual encounters and the rest? I assume we're just talking in generalities and not about this case? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

We all agree, I think, that none of us knows the details of this particular case. And to play the devil's advocate, we've all heard the stories of high school coaches getting in trouble for patting girls on the butt for a good effort, hugging a kid a little too close in an emotional moment and the like.

I'm NOT saying that this is the case here; I don't KNOW what the case is here. But, again, by the charges, it does not appear that the child in question was raped, statutorily or otherwise (and I'm including the "other option" in this case, since I imagine if "it" had happened, he would have been charged with it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

***Dear Sam: All I really want for Mother's Day is FLYING LEAD CHANGES!!*** http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:03 PM
Yep, pretty much most of the comments are referring to the abuse issue in general and not to this specific case. Several folks have been careful to say they don't know anything about this case other than what has been reported and are not commenting in it. And I think we're all firmly agreed that the accused is innocent until proven guilty, we can't speculate about what may or may not have happened, and we hope the charges do turn out to be unjustified, for everyone's sake.

rottenrobbie
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:06 PM
BEEZER

Quote from HSM (page 2)

I'd say that this constitutes support: story in local paper

This article goes into a little more detail about the charges, such as:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Doyle, 48, faces two counts each of second- and third-degree sexual abuse and one count of endangering the welfare of a child. Details of the allegations were sealed and were not discussed in court last night. Second-degree sexual abuse often involves subjecting a minor to sexual contact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a bit more than
"patting girls on the butt for a good effort, hugging a kid a little too close in an emotional moment and the like."

Remember BAIL WAS $50,0000. Something went down that was not appropriate!

Portia
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:08 PM
rottenrobbie, I think all we can say is that the accusation is that something went down that was not appropriate.

rottenrobbie
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:29 PM
Yes Portia you're correct the "Accusation", but WOW 50K does make one see this is being looked at by the authotities that this guy may be a sexual offender.
I also must say I think it's disresptful that people on this board are blaming the child. I'm not in "The Know" on this situation but really some people saying "How can her parents put her through this?"...I'm sure they (the girl and family) have had counseling and may feel this is the best healing situation for her! Let's hope it work out the best for everyone involved...the whole thing is unfortunate and shows the VERY UGLY side to our industry!

Beezer
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:41 PM
rottenrobbie, I can appreciate your point -- and your outrage. But as one of the articles posted points out, no sexual intercourse occurred. Sexual contact, yes, but not intercourse. "Sexual contact" can run the gamut from butt-patting to fondling to heavy petting to just short of the ultimate act. We don't know where on the scale this falls, nor do we know why the bail was set so high, since the prosecutor declined to comment on it.

And for the record, I'm not blaming the victim. I have no idea WHO to blame since I wasn't there and don't know the facts. None of us do, unless one of us is the defendant or victim in the case.

***Dear Sam: All I really want for Mother's Day is FLYING LEAD CHANGES!!*** http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Seven
Apr. 24, 2003, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
rottenrobbie, I think all we can say is that the _accusation_ is that something went down that was not appropriate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An accusations with enough facts and credible testimony to get an indictment... (and the first person to make the "ham sandwich" argument gets a big ole Aunt Ester purse upside the head!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I've worked with the Grand Jury and it's NOT that easy!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer:
And for the record, I'm not blaming the victim. I have no idea WHO to blame since I wasn't there and don't know the facts. None of us do, unless one of us is the defendant or victim in the case. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

....or a victim who just might be reading these very boards behind an anonymous screen name. Let's just try and keep that in mind before our conversation gets too graphic or into too much speculation on anyone's character. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Seven
Apr. 24, 2003, 05:24 PM
Since someone asked -- sex abuse (in NY) is characterized by sexual contact when he or she subjects another person to "sexual contact" without that person's consent.

Sexual contact is defined in the NYPL as: any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person not married to the actor for the purpose of gratifying sexual desire of either party. It includes the touching of the actor by the victim, as well as the touching of the victim by the actor, whether directly or through clothing.

The difference in the degrees is that under 2nd degree (the higher charge) sex abuse must involve a victim that is either 1) incapable of consent OR 3) less than 14 years old. 3rd degree sex abuse can essentially happen to any minor, except in certain circumstances where two minors close in age are the two principals (not the situation here).

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Weatherford
Apr. 24, 2003, 07:04 PM
And, correct me if I am wrong, Serendipity, "statuatory rape" can be claimed when any "adult" goes out with a "child" - it doesn't mean physical rape. Someone else might explain this better - I remember it from my Boarding School days, when the Williams guys wouldn't date us (Juniors and Seniors) because of Mass' statuatory rape laws - essentially, if they were over 18 and we were under 18 - even if they were 19, and we were 17, they could get into big trouble. They were warned against it.

So, the discussion of statuatory rape doesn't apply in this situation, given the indictment.

Lastly, most people probably don't realize it, but it is very much against the USOC (as well as the USAEq, FEI, IOC) Code of Ethics to have a coach to have a sexual relationship - of any sort - with a student. Can be compared to a Doctor having an affair with a patient - the same boundaries are supposed to be set. Not that that stops anyone http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. But it should, and certainly any sort of sexual relationship with a minor is inappropriate, and, if the minor is precocious, it IS STILL the responsibility of the ADULT to just say no and walk away.

There was a trainer in NJ who was charged with sexually abusing his girl students - he made them promise not to tell their parents under the threat of taking away their riding privileges. Last I heard, the case was still in the courts, but the evidence (more than one girl) was pretty stacked against him.

All sad and rather sick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Spunky
Apr. 24, 2003, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:

Lastly, most people probably don't realize it, but it is very much against the USOC (as well as the USAEq, FEI, IOC) Code of Ethics to have a coach to have a sexual relationship - of any sort - with a student. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW!!! Where does the rulebook say that??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Wait till I tell Mr. Spunky!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"If you feel you had a bad ride, how do you think your horse feels?"

Seven
Apr. 24, 2003, 07:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
And, correct me if I am wrong, Serendipity, "statuatory rape" can be claimed when any "adult" goes out with a "child" - it doesn't mean physical rape. Someone else might explain this better - I remember it from my Boarding School days, when the Williams guys wouldn't date us (Juniors and Seniors) because of Mass' statuatory rape laws - essentially, if they were over 18 and we were under 18 - even if they were 19, and we were 17, they could get into big trouble. They were warned against it.

So, the discussion of statuatory rape doesn't apply in this situation, given the indictment.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not anymore, Weatherford. I don't know how the law used to read, but requirements for all types rape in NY must include intercourse (and all degrees in NY are felonies). Other types of contact would be charged under sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, or something similar that has a misdemeanor charge. But laws change all the time....e.g., until recently, only women and girls could have most of these crimes commited against them...now either sex can be the victim.

On a seperate but important note, I should have mentioned before that there's a provision in the NYPL that sex offense charges canNOT be brought solely on the testimony of the victim. All complaints of sexual offenses must be supported by corroborating evidence that serves as some verification for the victim's complaint.

So I suppose in reference to your first comment again, Weatherford, that anyone *can* certainly claim anything, but the law does try to protect both parties with the requirement for corroboration.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Policy of Truth
Apr. 24, 2003, 07:35 PM
This is a generalization....but....

As I've been reading and following this thread, the concern over blaming the victim continues to haunt me.

It took me 11 years to admit and deal with being date raped by a guy I believed really loved me.

I've worked with rape survivors and I can't tell you the dammage our public does when it portrays the victim as the instigator.

I realize that some women would actually stoop to such low levels as lying about assault. However, many women never report their rapes because of fear of the system and how the public sees the victim as the one to blame.

Most sane and relatively healthy women/men do not make up stories like this.

I worked closely with a Violent Crimes detective who tried his best to collect evidence to be able to prosecute the suspect, but many times, after explaining to the victims how their names may come out in court, and people may choose not to believe them, they refuse to bring charges.

I feel like crying right now, out of anger and sorrow, that only a person that has had part of them stolen forever, can never get back.

I hope the truth comes out, and that if these things happened, the victim will be able to heal....hopefully better and faster than I did. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Coreene
Apr. 24, 2003, 10:35 PM
Pacificsolo, good for you for helping out others who have gone through the same awful thing that you did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It must be very difficult for you, but at the same time it must be very comforting for them to talk to someone who really does know how they feel.

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 04:53 AM
Thank you pacificsolo for addressing the danger of the "blame the victim" syndrome so eloquently. And kudos to you on your own personal healing and recovery, and for speaking up here.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Policy of Truth
Apr. 25, 2003, 05:24 AM
Thanks you, Coreene and HSM. It means a lot to me.

God has been so good to me in my healing process.

CuteHunter
Apr. 25, 2003, 06:28 AM
Somebody posted that it has too have been at least two years since this trainer had a student that was 14 years old. Why is that the assumption- does this man not normally train juniors? (serious question, I really dont know the answer)

Pacificsolo, kudos to you for being so strong and not only helping yourself but also helping others- I hope that provides you with a good deal of comfort.

Anne FS
Apr. 25, 2003, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
I am just saying that, to me .....it's one thing to make unwanted sexual advances with a minor and another to simply have sexual relations with a minor.

...

And, it's one thing to prey upon some innocent little girl with, at best, a crush, and another thing to have a sexual relationship with someone that may, like I said before, be 14 going on 25.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It's not. It IS the same thing legally. No 'but she asked for it', no 'but she dresses like a tart', no 'but she had sex with XXX.'

As someone working on multiple political campaigns your response alarms me. Also, it explains a lot about our politicians. Did they get it from you, or did you get it from them, this idea that the law isn't the law if (insert whatever justification you want)?

You'd best advise your politicians differently than you have been.

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:02 AM
Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Kitty
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:04 AM
There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
And it's because any of us at all think that way that these perpetrators continue to prey on innocent victims. It's sickening really....
While schools are trying to teach our children that they can and should demand that their personal boundaries be respected, we undermine and negate that knowledge and power by cutting the perverts some slack. Maybe she looked older, maybe she's 14 going on 25, maybe she "encouraged" it..... What crap! Total bull! How can any of us even consider it? This is the most disgusting form of physical/
psychological abuse possible. Using one's position of respect and authority to twist the victim's thinking and influence behavior to reach one's own perverted goals and satisfaction. Yes, this man is innocent until proven guilty under our laws, and yes, we have no idea what actually happened, but no, no, no, the victim is not responsible, ever....

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would we need to say that? Adult sexual advances/involvement with a child are just that - wanted or unwanted, any other excuses notwithstanding. The only potentially "acceptable" excuse would be if the adult really truly ABSOLUTELY had NO IDEA that the child was in fact underage (therefore they believed they were involved with an adult - a stretch in most instances but certainly possible).

Any other factors (motivation etc.) are totally irrelevant IMHO

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
And it's because any of us at all think that way that these perpetrators continue to prey on innocent victims. It's sickening really....

Maybe she looked older, maybe she's 14 going on 25, maybe she "encouraged" it..... What crap! Total bull! How can any of us even consider it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case(and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)[b]then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws...

*But of course, if he did know she was a child, then he is indeed a sicko perv and deserves full prosecution!

Anne FS
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:
There is something very wrong in our horseworld and in our society in general when so many of us are willing to suggest that this or any victim of sexual abuse could bear any responsibility whatsoever for the event itself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, this statement I don't agree with. I don't agree with the 100% of it, the premise that *no* underage victim could *ever* bear *any responsibility whatsoever." There do exist underagers who know, want, like, & pursue sex with adults or with one special person.

Ghazzu said it the best of anyone on here:

"I don't care if a 14 year old ran into the adult's bedroom stark naked, holding a bottle of Maker's Mark in one hand, and a joint in the other.

It is still the responsiblity of the adult to throw a blanket over the child, and steer them to the door. At the very least."

Where I differ from rockstar is that it is up to the adult to refuse and repel all contact and not use the fact that if the underager knew & wanted the contact, that in any way mitigates the act. If the adult knows he/she is underage, case closed. That's the law. But that's different from saying that every 14yo in the world is incapable of having a knowledgeable sexual relationship. Maybe 99% are, but not 100%. People like Ghazzu mentioned do exist, but it can not be used as an excuse that you had sexual contact with them if you knew their age. Heck, probably some of our great-grandmothers were married anywhere from 14-16. (Like Loretta Lynn, married at 14 and a grandmother at 28!).

P.S. I'm not saying anyone's grandma drank Maker's Mark and smoked a joint at the same time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seven
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
Can we say that (morally if not legally) "unwanted sexual advances" are EVEN WORSE than "apparently wanted sexual advances". Without in any way implying that "apparently wanted sexual advances" are in any way excusable?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly we can say that...and, in fact, the law already makes that distinction -- unwanted sexual misconduct is a felony, while sexual misconduct where there is ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion, is a misdemeanor.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catahoula:
I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case (and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)[b]then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Catahoula...but even in your hypothetical the adult male is not in full compliance with the law. As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her actual age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her actual age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There ya go!!!!

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catahoula:
I don't know the parties involved with the case in question, but speaking hypothetically, the man may honestly not have known she was underaged. If that was the case (and again, I don't know any of the details, I'm just speaking about a fictional situation)[b]then he should not be considered an abuser. How could he when he accepted her as an adult? If she lied about her age and he didn't know, she is not the victim, he is! C'mon people, the man may have done nothing more than go after a younger WOMAN (not child)... I hardly think that qualifies him a sicko perv... In this scenario*, he was in full compliance with society's laws...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:
Sorry, Catahoula...but even in your hypothetical the adult male is _not_ in full compliance with the law. As the responsible party (responsible because by law, minors are incompetant), the man is under the burden of determining her _actual_ age before proceeding. So, he's still responsible for his actions and can't plead ignorance. A perfect example of "when in doubt, don't." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

****
http://www.nyhr.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QUOTE]

By doing what, asking for her driver's license or age references? Sheesh, you all are tough dates! "Oh, I know you're cute, but before I go home with you, I'll need to see 3 photo id's and an age cetification from your doctor..." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Updated to mention AGAIN that I've come across several 14 year olds who look older than me - a 32 year old!

[This message was edited by Catahoula on Apr. 25, 2003 at 11:14 AM.]

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Certainly we can say that...and, in fact, the law already makes that distinction -- unwanted sexual misconduct is a felony, while sexual misconduct where there is ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion, is a misdemeanor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the article siad he was only charged with misdemeanors, not felonies.

Thanks for the clarification.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Seven
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:12 AM
I'm not asking him to get anything...if it's something he wants to pursue, it's the citizens of the state of New York that require that he be certain. Or take his chances. One way or the other, the burden or the consequences will be his problem, not the minor's problem.

Besides, think of it this way...do you really want to go down that road? Do you really want to craft a law that questions the motives and the intentions of the minor just to ferret out the few cases where it might have been a factor? Or would you just rather make the ADULT the legally responsible party with the burden of making sure his/her conduct falls within the boundaries of the law? Because that's the way we've got it now. The ADULT has the burden. And to protect the vast majority of CHILDREN that are victimized by adults, we've decided to err on the side of the children...by declaring them incapable of consent and making sure the adult acts like an ADULT.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Portia
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:14 AM
Anne, I agree completely, and ghazzu did say it best.

Pacificsolo, thank you for your work and your strength in your continued recovery.

One caveat to my belief that you cannot blame the victim -- I do think an underage person can have be blamed and have responsibility -- for lying about sexual contact/abuse. If a minor makes up stories and lies about the supposed abuse/contact to get back at someone, or to spite the adult, etc., then that minor is guilty of making false accusations and should be blamed for that. That's why I believe in the laws that require substantiating evidence to confirm the accuser isn't lying. That is not blaming the victim, because in that case the perpetrator of the wrong is the false accuser, and the victim is the person wrongly accused.

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:


And the article siad he was only charged with misdemeanors, not felonies.

Thanks for the clarification.

Janet
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Only" misdemeanors? *sigh*

Well, what that that means (according to the law as quoted by Serendipity) is: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ambiguious or unsubstantiated forcible complusion <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a far cry from "wanted" advances. Just may mean there was no one around to PROVE that it happened or was unwanted.

I still believe it is in the best interest of our society to place the burden on the alleged perpetrator, NOT the alleged victim. which apparently is how the law is written, even if there are people who disagree.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Seven
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:23 AM
In addition to Portia's comment, let's not forget that there is also the element of "prosecutorial discretion." That's an element of any prosecution that permits the prosecutor NOT to pursue any case they don't think has sufficient evidence. It happens all the time and is not reviewable by a court.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It happens all the time and is not reviewable by a court.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean that the court could not overrule and prosecute anyway and that the case would be dead at that point (yes, it is a stupid question, but you confused me)? I'm not a lawyer and I DO appreciate you and Portia's legal input! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rockstar
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It's not. It IS the same thing legally. No 'but she asked for it', no 'but she dresses like a tart', no 'but she had sex with XXX.'

As someone working on multiple political campaigns your response alarms me. Also, it explains a lot about our politicians. Did they get it from you, or did you get it from them, this idea that the law isn't the law if (insert whatever justification you want)?

You'd best advise your politicians differently than you have been.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anne, respectfully, please go back and read my posts- because you are way not on target here. I made it VERY clear, I think, that I was stating MY opinion, and NOT the law, of which I have no idea. This is what I wrote:

"And I, by no means whatsoever, know much of anything about NY State criminal law re: sexual misconduct with minors.

I am just saying that, to me (and though the law IS the law, we all know the value of the court of public opinion too), it's one thing to make unwanted sexual advances with a minor and another to simply have sexual relations with a minor (that is, relations minus the "unwanted" part).

That "unwanted" makes a big difference."

In a nutshell, for what I hope is the last and final time, here is what I was saying in my previous posts:
-ANY guy who has sexual relations with a 14 year old who is 48 is a total, and complete, sleazball. Period, end of story.
-HOWEVER, in terms of the severity of just how much of a scum he is, and in turn, in terms of how severe the punishment should be, there is a difference (in MY mind) between unwanted sexual advances and "wanted" sexual advances... and the girl's role in the scenario has to be considered then.
-In the end, without being cognizant of all of the circumstances surrounding the case, without the advantage of sitting in that courtroom and hearing each one's side, it's not up to us to say whether the guy should be banished from this earth OR whether 100 hours of community service would suffice, if the charges are true.

Again, here, MY opinion. Not what I believe the law is or should be. You're right, the law is the law. And I fully trust that that law is in place because enough of our leaders saw fit for it to be there.

And Anne, I would challenge you to find the perecentage of politicians who follow and believe in the law vs. those who don't... I think you'd be surprised at how high it is. Be careful not to let a few bad apples disort your view of elected officials on the whole and make generalizations that they're all liars and cheaters who believe themselves above the law. And, btw, I'm just another little campaign worker. And as for me "advising," I'm just another little campaign worker trying to get people I like into office, I don't exactly have access to the Oval Office. Maybe some day though!

As much as many of you blame me for siding against the victim (which, by the way, I AM NOT!!!!!), I blame you all for taking sides at all when so very much is unkown. Hypothetically, if these charges are true, my heart goes out to all.

Serendpity- I do not feel slighted at all- I just was a dummie and read your post out of context... one of my biggest pet peeves in a country like this is those who complain about the system and don't do anything to fix it- I got a little defensive when I thought you were accusing me of being one of those people- sorry!!!

HSM- yes, agree to disagree we must I think! Only please, do NOT think that I am defending a man guilty of sexual misconduct or thinking the victim is at fault! I just think the victim has a role- and that is where we seem to differ.

To everyone (Heidi!)- Any unwanted sexual adcances made, whether the victim is a hooker or everything peaches and cream, are WRONG!! I just, PERSONALLY, feel that when "unwanted" is not a part of the formula and everything is consentual, in the case of a minor, things change a bit and yes, it does matter whether or not the minor in question has a history of being "provacative" or is a baby at 14.

Ok, so, round three, ding ding ding! Attack, attack me!

And, thank you clemsonrider! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Support F.O.B.B. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seven
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:29 AM
Yes, that's what it means. It's more complex than I presented it because a DA's office is not just one person making all the decisions, most if not all cases are handled by a team of lawyers and investigators. What would most likely happen is that the police or ADA would take the victim's complaint, and then the investigators would examine the evidence. If after investigation there was no evidence or even no crime that was actually commited, the prosecutor can decline to present the case to the grand jury.

****
NYHR (http://www.nyhr.org)

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:30 AM
By "only" I was NOT implying that ANYTHING was excusable. Just that it clarified what he had (vs. had not) been charged with.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Does this mean that the court could not overrule and prosecute anyway <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not a lawyer either, but-
"The court" doesn't prosecute. The court JUDGES the case brought by the prosecutor, and the defense brought by the defendant.

The court can't overrule the prosecutor's decision not to pursue the case, or to reduce the charges, any more that the court can over-rule (in general, I realize that incompetence can change this) a defendant's decision to plead guilty.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:43 AM
Thanks Serendipity!

And rockstar, at risk of getting attacked myself, I think I understand where you're coming from and I have to agree.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Rockstar's comments may come into play during (if the defendent is found guilty) the sentencing phase. If he attacked a harmless child, then he deserves full punishment. If, however, she was actively involved and / or led him to believe something else about her age, then his sentence should be lighter. At that point, it's not fair to claim innocence of her age if she truly wasn't..

Ack, they're coming to get me!!!!

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:

"The court" doesn't prosecute. The court JUDGES the case brought by the prosecutor, and the defense brought by the defendant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My apologies, lazy language on my part.

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
By "only" I was NOT implying that ANYTHING was excusable. Just that it clarified what he had (vs. had not) been charged with.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

HSM
Apr. 25, 2003, 09:04 AM
rockstar-

First of all, I do not want to attack you, I promise!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And yes, you HAVE made it very clear that you think if the allegations are true, the acts are reprehensible. Thank you for that.

I understand that you are not defending this specific alleged perpetrator, nor are you blaming this specific victim. When I talked about "blaming the victim", I was referring to the global problem that this represents, and the way it is often used to get criminals "off the hook". Think the Matthew Shepard case, think the Preppie murder case (both murders, I know, but the most well-known examples I could think of off the top of my head.) The danger in suggesting that *maybe* the victim in any case could have played a role in what happened is that it perpuates this mindset. The only exception I can think of is the one Portia gave, where it is found beyond any doubt that the minor lied (not about their age, but about what heppened.)

That said, I think I am done here - I suspect this thread will soon be closed anyway if no additional horse-related issues come into play.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
One caveat to my belief that you cannot blame the victim -- I do think an underage person can have be blamed and have responsibility -- _for lying about sexual contact/abuse_. If a minor makes up stories and lies about the supposed abuse/contact to get back at someone, or to spite the adult, etc., then that minor is guilty of making false accusations and should be blamed for that. That's why I believe in the laws that require substantiating evidence to confirm the accuser isn't lying. That is not blaming the victim, because in that case the perpetrator of the wrong is the false accuser, and the victim is the person wrongly accused.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for pointing this out Portia. Unfortunately, this happens a lot more than it should. Even if the accusation is dropped, just the fact that it was once made haunts the (adult) victim for a LONG time. (Not saying ANYTHING about the case under discussion- just my own personal experience.)

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

hobson
Apr. 25, 2003, 11:10 AM
It needs to be noted that children who report sexual abuse or assault often take back their stories when they see their adult caretakers getting upset, angry and irrational about it. The child may have been blamed by the adult, perhaps the adult they told didn't believe the disclosure, or the child realizes that, depending on the perpetrator in question, the family may break up or the perp may be threatening the child with violence. Recanting in these cases, which are VERY common, does not mean the child is lying. It DOES make the child more vulnerable, though. Just another general statement, not specifically about the case in question.

And there is nothing difficult about an adult asking the question, how old are you? before engaging in sexual contact with someone who is obviously younger. That's the adult responsibility by law (and according to common sense), even when the younger person lies about his or her age.

Policy of Truth
Apr. 25, 2003, 11:30 AM
Thanks, hobson, for bringing that part of the issue up.

Rockstar, if you don't mind me asking, which party do you work for? What are the ideas about sexuall assault that you'd like to see changed, and how?

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
And there is nothing difficult about an adult asking the question, how old are you? before engaging in sexual contact with someone who is obviously younger. That's the adult responsibility by law (and according to common sense), even when the younger person lies about his or her age.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But if the child has lied, she has lied, and will probably lie again when asked... If she acts older, looks older, and says she's older, then how is the man wrong? In my opinion, he is not a criminal at that point.

hobson
Apr. 25, 2003, 11:47 AM
Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.

Janet
Apr. 25, 2003, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, my experience has been the opposite- that the powers that be find it easier to believe the lying, vindictive teenager, and blame the innocent adult.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

JER
Apr. 25, 2003, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If she acts older, looks older, and says she's older, then how is the man wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about if she looks older, acts older but shows as a junior?

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
Well, if you are determined to believe that there is an epidemic of dishonest, sexually predatory teenage girls out there who are lying about their age and sexual activity in order to ruin the lives of men, then whatever. It would be nice if people would expend that kind of outrage on the lying perpetrators, of which there are exponentially more, except people never want to believe that someone they like and trust could be a common criminal. It's easier to blame girls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the hell? I was not saying that there is an epidemic of slutty girls out there preying on defenseless gentlemen, I was merely pointing out that yes, there ARE little harlots out there and yes, they do lie. And if they lied once, they could lie again. To deny that fact is ridiculous. And yes, I have first-hand experience with lying, bratty little girls who will do ANYTHING to get what they want... It's not far-fetched.

They exist. That was my point. I have repeatedly said that could have been a part of the case, WE DON'T KNOW. I have also said that if the man did it, he deserves to be punished.

There are two sides to every story, don't just automatically assume that the girl is lilly-white!

A friend of mine is experiencing a nightmare situation in her family. A girl they adopted as a young child has been a complete terror. The couple's other children are wonderful (including other girls). This girl has lied about everything, has had problems at school, just a terror. Her parents are awesome and have tried everything with her.

Her latest way to fight back? They told her she couldn't do something so she called the cops and said the father has been molesting her. It isn't true - if you knew the family you would know this. They have been going through absolute hell and have had their lives ruined because she wanted to go out on a Friday night.

Would you care to defend her? Oh, she is 14...

Riley Rider
Apr. 25, 2003, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If she acts older, looks older, and says she's older, then how is the man wrong? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about if she looks older, acts older but shows as a junior?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was not said in any of the articles (never said she rode), and those are the facts I thought we were discussing...

If that was the case, and he knew it, he deserves to go to jail...

wadino
Apr. 25, 2003, 12:54 PM
On the whole, she could have lied about her age thing...

It's not like he was an 18 or 19 year old guy who could have mistaken her for a girl around his age, he is atleast 40 something.

Also, why would you lie about your age to be with a guy who is old enough to be your dad? And then charge him with sexual assault and put yourself on display to the public? It doesn't seem to me like this family is trying to ruin his life or anything...

_________________
Forture: Wise people always check their speling.

nollekins
Apr. 25, 2003, 01:32 PM
right on hobson! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And now I'm going to be un-PC and say: (BTW, I mean this impersonally and NOT related to any specific case)
Man of nearly fifty + Girl in teens (I don't care if she IS 18 and therefore legal)= ewwwww. It may be legal but I still think it's grody. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Heidi
Apr. 25, 2003, 01:42 PM
Exactly, RzB.

I can fathom a young girl, even of 14, flirting with an 18 year old boy, and perhaps lying about her age, or having a crush on Colin Farrell -- but a man near fifty? I'm racking my brain trying to think of a 14 year old girl with a crush on Michael Douglas or Harrison Ford.

And to add to nollekins' political incorrectness. As a mother of a daughter on the cusp of 13, even if found innocent, I'd still avoid any trainer who bore that 'taint'. Harsh, I know; and probably unfair. But I'd always wonder and worry. Better seemingly safe than sorry in this instance.

lauriep
Apr. 25, 2003, 01:50 PM
Did you ever here of the term "hero worship?" Or Sven Gali (sp)?

It DOES happen, and more often than you would think.

Laurie

mwalshe
Apr. 25, 2003, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
Exactly, RzB.

I can fathom a young girl, even of 14, flirting with an 18 year old boy, and perhaps lying about her age, or having a crush on Colin Farrell -- but a man near fifty? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It definetely happens and I've seen it many times. High school teachers, coaches, older friends boyfriends, the farrier http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I think it's looking for a father figure myself ....

Crushes of that kind are fairly normal, an adult man acting on them is however NOT OK, and obviously most don't.

Heidi
Apr. 25, 2003, 02:27 PM
But, maggy, someone 30+ years your senior?

I could envision a crush on a trainer, teacher, coach, etc. at 16, say, but at 14? Perhaps I'm personalizing as the mother of an almost-teen but I'd be baffled if she developed a crush on someone, heck, a decade older than me. And then to further act on that crush in a sexually provocative way? Again, colour me baffled.

doyouevenride
Apr. 25, 2003, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Heidi:
I could envision a crush on a trainer, teacher, coach, etc. at 16, say, but at 14? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heidi? It is time to wake up and join the rest of us in reality.

Blinky
Apr. 25, 2003, 04:29 PM
I do not know anyone tied to this case. I do not know if the accuser is a rider or not. BUT as one who is 33 and has many "mature" cousins, nieces and nephews, between the ages of 14-18 years old, it only takes a few minutes of conversation with these folks to realize that they are teenagers! Do you think that a 14 year old is able to carry a conversation equal to that of a 24 year old?

dogchushu
Apr. 25, 2003, 04:54 PM
Are we still discussing hypotheticals? It seems there's a lot of discussion about whether someone knew about a persons age or not and whether they should have. A valid discussion, but for the case at hand, we don't actually know yet that anything even happened. (Unless I missed something.)

Finders Guy
Apr. 26, 2003, 05:05 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seahorse:
Here's another possible scenario - perhaps the "child" at 14, is not so "innocent"...Should we always put the blame on adults?
perhaps it was a set up?

It doesn't matter. At 14, the "child" is legally just that, a child. She (or he in other cases) cannot consent.

Legally, as a society we don't care what the intentions were. It doesn't matter how old someone thought the victim was. It doesn't matter if the victim lied about age. All that matters is the age and the act (was there contact, and contact is usually very broadly defined)

I hope Mr. Doyle is innocent.

Charles

Confused owner of Finders Keepers and Jon William who was sad to learn he couldn't come home like the dogs

Weatherford
Apr. 26, 2003, 05:20 AM
We can leave this thread hypothetical, or start a new one, either way - I believe the discussion is very important.

This is a quote from the USOC Coaching Ethics Code, which applies to all sports under the USOC. There is a similar one as part of the FEI, but I only have that in pdf form, so can't copy and paste... (this is only the section on Sexual harrassment - there are other sections that discuss conflicts of interest, etc.

Interesting document...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 1.08 Sexual Harassment
(a) Coaches do not engage in sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is sexual solicitation, physical advances, or verbal or nonverbal conduct that is sexual in nature, and that either:
(1) is unwelcome, is offensive, or creates a hostile environment, and the coach knows or is told this;
(2) is sufficiently severe or intense to be abusive to a reasonable person in the context.
Sexual harassment can consist of a single intense or severe act or of multiple persistent or pervasive acts.
(b) Coaches accord sexual-harassment complainants and respondents dignity and respect.
Coaches do not participate in denying an athlete the right to participate based upon their having made, or their being the subject of, sexual harassment charges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

davidgud - equestrian jihad
Apr. 26, 2003, 05:23 AM
Ummm Heidi and other Canadians - achtung, a big heads up . . .

Pierre Trudeau as justice minister (age 47 or 48 can't remember exactly) met one Margaret Sinclair, age 18 at a Club Med and proceeded to chat her up . . .

Three years in 1971, the now Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Eliot Trudeau, married Margaret Sinclair, age 21.

Powerful older men and beautiful younger women have always been going together. The ethical norms of the middle class are often not applied with the upper class.

Remember Michael Kennedy?? Started an affair with his children's babysitter - age 14????

Hmmmm

sidenote: HOBSON (bike chick): check it out . . . www.tctrail.ca (http://www.tctrail.ca)

TransCanada Trail

Silk
Apr. 26, 2003, 06:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
How about if she looks older, acts older but shows as a junior?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a lot of the "juniors" are really 18 yeas old.
I am always suspicious when someone as well respected and successfull (as Mr Doyle) isaccused of something like this. Even if it is not true, and he is found not guilty, it has already tarnished his who;e person (peronally and professionally). This in itself cn be viewed as a "success" for the acuser (whatever their motive).

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

armandh
Apr. 26, 2003, 06:25 AM
everyone dressed alike in riding clothes, it is hard to tell...until they ask if we knew Paul McCartney was in a band B4 Wings. it is still no excuse, no mater how aggressive the young girl. as an older fellow one hopes to have obtained the wisdom to know it would be a disaster [and for doyle it probably will be]

SMKR
Apr. 26, 2003, 08:46 AM
Actually, at 14 she probably never heard of Wings either!!

khobstetter
Apr. 26, 2003, 11:33 AM
I for one do not know the specifics of this case and the details I do know sound sort of suspicious.....................courts and legal system will decide.. I will refrain from commenting.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the "hypotheticals" being discussed on this thread..

It seems a HUGE problem in these speculations has not been addressed...

Shouldn't people at least have enough time in ANY relationship to KNOW exact details about a person before they jump in the sack?????????

Sounds like the local singles bar where it is not important WHO you hook up with as long as you DO hook up (FOR THE NIGHT)!!

The hypotheticals of "sHe lied about her age".."she looks older" and all of that has nothing to do with quality people looking for something more than a few moments of "PERSONAL SATISFACTION"!!!!

I think the city of Amsterdam is a place where those excuses MIGHT be acceptable since thats the motivation there...instant gratification.

In the horse show world of trainers/students/girlfriends one can hope there is enough self control to know exactly who you are messing with BEFORE you mess with them..

The only excuses in the above "hypotheticals" is the lack of self control, self respect and respect for the person on the receiving end of the "affections".....AND THOSE ARE NO EXCUSES...

That's MHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

Finders Guy
Apr. 26, 2003, 12:20 PM
I beg to differ here...I've been in her shoes, been at fault for instigating and relentless pursual...and all the while lying that I was of "legal" age for such behavior. Now, is the man still at fault?

Legally the guy is still at fault!

Statutory Rape (by any of it's myriad of names) is what is called a no mens rea crime. There is no mental element involved. It doesn't matter what the perpetrator thought or believed. The victim can claim to be of proper age. The victim can even engage, entice, request, desire the act. The law doesn't care.

All that matters is:
What was the victims age?
Was there a sexual contact?

Keep in mind, sexual contact is broadly defined.

So, even if the victim lied, or even was asking for sex, society has said NO!

Confused owner of Finders Keepers and Jon William who was sad to learn he couldn't come home like the dogs

Giddy-up
Apr. 26, 2003, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
This is a quote from the USOC Coaching Ethics Code, which applies to all sports under the USOC. There is a similar one as part of the FEI, but I only have that in pdf form, so can't copy and paste... (this is only the section on Sexual harrassment - there are other sections that discuss conflicts of interest, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee...so you are saying that it was wrong for the 24 year old assistant trainer to be dating the "older" junior riders he taught? That happened at a barn I used to ride at. Always wondered (if besides the law!) there was anything else wrong with it too.

Weatherford
Apr. 26, 2003, 01:58 PM
Yup, Giddy-up, it is considered unethical by the standards of the USOC, IOC, FEI, et al.

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Evalee Hunter
Apr. 26, 2003, 02:25 PM
WITH THEIR KIDS.

When Ali (my daughter) was 11 or 12 & starting to ride & be with coaches out of my sight & be with older kids at pony club camp & so on, I talked to her, not just "sex" which we had talked about many times but about the fact that she might be "pressured" or presented with situations where a coach would imply that the way to get ahead was to "go along". I told her that was WRONG. There are other coaches, other horses, other days. Someone who implies that having a sexual relationship with them will get you the chance at your goals is USING you.

I have read so many times in the newspapers about this happening (seems mostly in gymnastics & soccer) that I figured it HAD TO HAPPEN in riding, too.

Parents need to be watchful, to be "on the scene" as much as possible, to be interested in their children's lives, & they also need to talk with their children.

I am not "blaming" the parents here, but I am saying that parents, all parents, need to be as alert & on top of things as they can be. Don't be naive!

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Finders Guy
Apr. 26, 2003, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What the hell? I was not saying that there is an epidemic of slutty girls out there preying on defenseless gentlemen, I was merely pointing out that yes, there ARE little harlots out there and yes, they do lie. And if they lied once, they could lie again. To deny that fact is ridiculous. And yes, I have first-hand experience with lying, bratty little girls who will do ANYTHING to get what they want... It's not far-fetched. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I figure that will be something for the defense to bring out. I figure it applies to the element of reasonable doubt that something happened.

Of course, the hard part is drawing the line so that the Jury doesn't think she deserved what happened to her. I figure the Prosecutions job will be to protect their witness.

Confused owner of Finders Keepers and Jon William who was sad to learn he couldn't come home like the dogs

Finders Guy
Apr. 26, 2003, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Did you ever here of the term "hero worship?" Or Sven Gali (sp)?

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sven Gali the famous Swedish Lothario?

Confused owner of Finders Keepers and Jon William who was sad to learn he couldn't come home like the dogs

doyouevenride
Apr. 27, 2003, 06:13 AM
lauriep - your "hero-worship" theory - BINGO!!!!

khobstetter
Apr. 27, 2003, 11:01 AM
Again, I will not comment on THE case...HOWEVER..

lauriep's comment about "hero worship" is right on........

BUT what about the responsibility of the "hero" ????

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

sketcher
Apr. 27, 2003, 12:06 PM
I was merely pointing out that yes, there ARE little harlots out there and yes, they do lie. And if they lied once, they could lie again. To deny that fact is ridiculous. And yes, I have first-hand experience with lying, bratty little girls who will do ANYTHING to get what they want... It's not far-fetched.

A friend of mine is experiencing a nightmare situation in her family. A girl they adopted as a young child has been a complete terror. The couple's other children are wonderful (including other girls). This girl has lied about everything, has had problems at school, just a terror. Her parents are awesome and have tried everything with her.

Her latest way to fight back? They told her she couldn't do something so she called the cops and said the father has been molesting her. It isn't true - if you knew the family you would know this. They have been going through absolute hell and have had their lives ruined because she wanted to go out on a Friday night.

Would you care to defend her? Oh, she is 14...

Yes, I would like to defend her.

First of all the girl mentioned - if she was such a terror - should have been involved with some sort of professional help whether it be with a private counselor or the school system, so calling the police shouldn't have "ruined" their lives.

Secondly, if she was such a problem then theri is obviously some sort of problem that no-one is addressing. Who knows what happened to this kid during the years before she was adopted. Young children who are abused often don't show signs of it until they reach adolescence.

Thirdly, I was one of those little harlots when I was thirteen. I had also been raped as a child and learned later in therapy that having been sexualized at the age of 8 by rape caused me to be vulnerable as a young teenager. Actually I was 11 and taken advantage of by a man (and 3 of his friends)in his forties. What is going on on the inside of a child who is being used and abused is much different than what goes on on the outside. I hated every minute of those men but was willful, balsy and basically a juvenile delinquent on the outside and to this day I still remember overhearing an adult woman calling me a slut behind my back - and I was thirteen.

So you people who think some of the fault should lean towards the 14 y.o. should stop to think that even if she was all over this guy, there could have been some other pretty serious things driving that behavior. Even if she was mature for her age, spoiled rotten and driven to get what she wants to the point of 'seducing' a man so much her senior, someone, somewhere along the line taught her that kind of behavior.

Janet
Apr. 27, 2003, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So you people who think some of the fault should lean towards the 14 y.o. should stop to think that even if she was all over this guy, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In the message you quoted- NO ONE said she was "all over this guy".

They told her she couldn't go out on Friday night, and so she told the cops her adopted father had been abusing her.

VERY different.

Yes, clearly she is in need of counselling and treatment.

But that doesn't change the fact that she made a completely false accusation.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

McLeanHunterRider
Apr. 27, 2003, 04:46 PM
Here's my two cents: There are some 14 year olds who can act like they're twenty. Those girls can almost always get a guy to sleep with them. In addition, if a 14 year old was seriously "coming onto" an older man, than in most cases, the girl should be blamed, not the man. However, if it was unwanted, then the man should be serverly penalized.

Oh, and a quick question, since I've never heard of this trainer: Was the girl who he abused a student of his, or was she someone he had met another way, or what?? I'm just wondering if the information has come out from the courts yet (or if it will, for that matter...) Thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Horsey folks are stable people

dressager
Apr. 27, 2003, 05:28 PM
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/74136.htm

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/77428p-71418c.html

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
I'm back in the land of SARS

Mom
Apr. 27, 2003, 05:39 PM
To McLeanHunter et al: could we amend this to discuss the ALLEGED abuse? So far, absolutely nothing has been proven.
Thanks

JustJump
Apr. 27, 2003, 06:05 PM
How upsetting that the worst is so quickly assumed of a widely respected individual with no previous reputation that I am aware of for such behavior...as for a high bond amount, is it possible that the DA might have taken the accused's foreign citizenship into account? It would be more fairminded, I think, to confine the "speculative" and "hypothetical" comments to the thread which was created for that purpose, rather than continue to hash and rehash points of view in such a way that the ALLEGED'S name is continually and prominantly displayed in such a painfully (for all concerned) harmful context.

MKM
Apr. 28, 2003, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>An equestrian trainer for Mayor Bloomberg's 20-year-old daughter, Georgina, was arrested in Westchester County last Wednesday and charged with sexual abuse of a 14-year-old Connecticut girl whom the trainer also coached, according to court sources. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
yes, it is still speculation that jimmy was the girls trainer. that's not definite yet, but i think it's likely that that was the nature of their relationship. who knows, though?

i'm finished with speculating about anything else. i just hope that if he didn't do anything he gets cleared and people will be able to forget about this. but if he did do something, regardless of how the child acted, i hope he gets some good time.

halfhalt
Apr. 28, 2003, 07:20 AM
...it's Svengali, actually! and i believe the allusion is to an older person who tries to take complete control over a younger person's life, not in a sexual sense but in terms of moulding them into a certain persona. A master teacher of dubious moral character who has grand schemes for a budding artist or performer, and will stop at nothing to achieve that end.

Culture buffs will correct me if i'm wrong!n

SGray
Apr. 28, 2003, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Did you ever here of the term "hero worship?" Or Sven Gali (sp)?

Sven Gali the famous Swedish Lothario?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is Sven Gali related to Butros Butros Gali (former UN sec. gen.)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JER - I could never have imagined that this thread could contain something this hilarious - thanks for the laugh.

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

Anne FS
Apr. 28, 2003, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
Lastly, most people probably don't realize it, but it is very much against the USOC (as well as the USAEq, FEI, IOC) Code of Ethics to have a coach to have a sexual relationship - of any sort - with a student. Can be compared to a Doctor having an affair with a patient - the same boundaries are supposed to be set. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weatherford, the excerpt from the USOC Coaching Ethics Code you posted contradicts this statement.

The excerpt says no sexual harassment and defines that as being unwanted or abusive. According to that excerpt, coach/student sexual relationships when both parties are willing don't come under that category and are therefore ok.

Snowbird
Apr. 28, 2003, 12:59 PM
A "child" does not have the experience to be a willing and consenting adult even if she looks like she's 50 years old.

No adult of any age has any right not to control his/her urges in a sexual way when it applies to a minor child who has not come of her maturity which is safely set.

"Jail Bait" is an old and effective deterent to prevent any adult who may be an idol or hero of the minor child.

It doesn't matter if she jumped naked into his bed while he was asleep and he thought it was his SO. It is the responsibility of all adults to exercise self control and discipline which is why they are not considered children.

Children who have no ability to control their urges and need for pleasure gratification are just that "children".

If it happened then there is simply no excuse, if it did not happen then the child is in need of therapy for seeking that kind of attention. No one has the right to take advantage of anyone who is mentally injured of any age.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Weatherford
Apr. 28, 2003, 01:01 PM
ACtually, that was only the section I could find in a hurry - there is a lot more...

I will try to find the rest later!

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SillyHorse
Apr. 28, 2003, 01:08 PM
Thank you, Snowbird. It is an adult's responsibility to act like an adult.

SillyHorse
~ Incredible as it may seem, my life is based on a true story.

Anne FS
Apr. 28, 2003, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
ACtually, that was only the section I could find in a hurry - there is a lot more...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, okay, I just thought that if that was the relevant section, it didn't apply to what you said before.

Hey, guess what? Border's in Harrisburg is now carrying your new book 101 Jumping Exercises!!

Weatherford
Apr. 28, 2003, 01:30 PM
I think we need to stop speculating about his and/or her behaviour - and (as I said before) take this to a philosophical and moral question. As people have said, he is innocent until proven guilty. AS IS SHE - for those of you who have also implied otherwise.

I will start a new topic where we can discuss this more at length - it IS important... And, yes, we HAVE discussed it before, but it should remain in the forefront of our awareness.

Thanks.

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif