Welsh pony breeding question

[bvsporthorses]

Pony breeders... when (if ever) would you breed a sec A to a sec B welsh? When does it become less of a "faux pas" to mix these sections and why? *If* you were going to consider doing this, what would you take into consideration?

Curious as I have seen some lovely A/B crosses but realize that some breeders frown upon mixing the sections.

Educate me please :)

[quicksilverponies]

It is quite common to breed a Sec. A to a Sec. B. The resulting foal is registered as Sec. B. One reason it is often done to add a bit more Welsh pony type to a somewhat offtype B. The Sec. A is the original Welsh Mountain Pony from which all sections originated, and is the only "pure" section so to speak, as you can only get an A by breeding A X A. It is not really frowned upon to cross A X B, however, there are many Sec. B breeders that feel that the Sec. B gene pool in the USA is now sufficiently large enough to not need to go to the Sec. As to look for a certain type. Since I breed for hunter type movement, I would most likely not want to breed one of my Sec. B mares to a Sec. A stallion as the A movement is not often flat enough for me. However, there are a few really nice hunter moving As out there, but they are not the norm, nor really the breed standard. Very many nice Sec. B ponies have some Sec. A blood somewhere on their pedigrees.

[VirginiaBred]

The diehard welsh breeders frown upon the mixing of A's & B's and prefer breeding like type to like type.

That being said, by far the most common breeding outside a Section would be breeding a Section B to a TB. Very common and the result is a lovely hunter pony.

[Daventry]

The diehard welsh breeders frown upon the mixing of A's & B's and prefer breeding like type to like type.



Yes! :yes::yes: It may not matter at all to the pony hunter breeders out there, but IT IS very much frowned upon by the majority of Welsh breeders out there. Just as much as it is a no-no to cross a Welsh Cob (Section C or D) with a Section B. :no:

The Section B Welsh is our riding pony and is of different type than the other three sections...which is why Section B's are normally only bred to Section B's. While there are some breeders that understand the faux pas and go ahead and do the cross anyways, I think it happens most often than not to the new breeder due to ignorance as it isn't talked about very much...and should be! Each to their own though!

[Daventry]

Pony breeders... when (if ever) would you breed a sec A to a sec B welsh? When does it become less of a "faux pas" to mix these sections and why? *If* you were going to consider doing this, what would you take into consideration?


As a Welsh breeder myself, I would never personally compromise my program and cross a Section A with a Section B. And yes, there have been a couple of decent AxB crosses of it...but I have seen way more terrible AxB crosses than good ones. We don't allow any Section A's to be bred to our B stallion, no Section B's to be bred to our A stallion and no Section B's to be bred to our Section D Welsh Cob stallion. If it isn't talked about enough on the internet for the new breeder out there, I'm at least going to try and educate our Mare Owners better.

While there are a few nice AxB crosses out there, there are much nicer BxB crosses. ;)

[VirginiaBred]

Daventry, are we sharing the same brain? :lol::cool:

[Daventry]

Daventry, are we sharing the same brain? :lol::cool:

I wish everyone else would on the subject! ;) I had a breeder contact me the other day wanting to breed their Section B mare to our Section D Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap, in hopes of getting a stallion prospect to cross with their Section B herd. Sigh! :cry:

[rideagoldenpony]

Hate to disagree with you ladies, but I don't see anything wrong with an A x B cross, provided the sire and dam are chosen carefully.

I have seen some lovely crosses, and one of the reasons that people make the cross, is to end up with a larger pony, which of course is easier to train/market than the smaller ponies.

Until this thread, I've actually never heard a single bad word about the A x B cross.

[VirginiaBred]

The old school diehards frown mightly upon it. I make it my busines to pick the brain of those breeders and that's how I've always heard it.

I'm just saying.........

[rideagoldenpony]

I had a breeder contact me the other day wanting to breed their Section B mare to our Section D Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap, in hopes of getting a stallion prospect to cross with their Section B herd. Sigh! :cry:

I had a woman hang up on me a couple of weeks ago when I kept politely reiterating that I was NOT going to accept her D mare to be bred to Mardi. She kept giving me reasons it was "OK" and I kept saying no, because I sure was not going to have any hand in making one of those, especially not with his name on it! She was NOT happy with me, and as I was saying something to her, I heard a click and she was gone!

[Daventry]

The old school diehards frown mightly upon it. I make it my busines to pick the brain of those breeders and that's how I've always heard it.

I'm just saying.........

Any of the major Welsh breeders and well known breeders that I have talked to act like it's a desecration to cross an A with a B. :lol: I did the same thing when I got into Welsh and picked the brains of a lot of breeders. I had actually thought of starting a topic on the Welsh chat about it...as everybody talks about it privately, but no one is willing to speak about it publicly. I don't know why? :confused:

Oddly enough, all of the AxB crosses I have seen have been exceptionally small, not larger, and nearly all of them off-type - never sure whether you were looking at an A or a B and seemed to have jumbled bits of each Section. :no:

[quicksilverponies]

Do you guys realize that Farnley Belshazzar is an A/B cross? And that Farnley Lustre was an A by breeding as was Cymraeg Rain Beau?. And they were certainly crossed with many Bs resulting in very nice ponies. The dam of Cloe Olympian, Alra Dana Amber Rose, was also an A/B cross, Solway Master Bronze and Gayfields Vida Blue, and Halcyon Sir Lancelot were too, and I am sure there are many more nice ones out there. It has obviously been very successfully done over the years and more so in the past with the older breeders.

[lcw579]

I find all this A/B stuff very interesting. As a girl one of the first ponies I learned on was a Farnley and then I was lucky enough to own a Liseter pony and then a Liseter/TB cross.

This was back in the 70's and I was a kid so I don't remember anything about A/B. Welsh Mountain Pony I do remember hearing. Hmmm.. So - what were the Liseter ponies?

[quicksilverponies]

Most were Sec. As and many have been crossed with Bs to produce some super nice Sec. A/B crosses which are registered as Sec. Bs.

[Daventry]

Do you guys realize that Farnley Belshazzar is an A/B cross? And that Farnley Lustre was an A as was Cymraeg Rain Beau?. And they were certainly crossed with many Bs resulting in very nice ponies. The dam of Cloe Olympian, Alra Dana Amber Rose, was also an A/B cross, Solway Master Bronze and Gayfields Vida Blue were too, and I am sure there are many more nice ones out there. It has obviously been very successfully done over the years and more so in the past with the older breeders.

You also have to remember though that everything you're describing is part of the foundation for the pony hunter circuit. Diehard purebred Section B breeders don't necessarily care about having Farnley Lustre, Cymraeg Rain Beau and Cloe Olympian in their pedigrees - pony hunter breeders do!

[quicksilverponies]

I agree with you Tracy, but those ponies were bred by the old, well-respected breeders of Welsh ponies in our country such as Farnley and Gayfields. And many of them have been very successful in the Welsh show world as well as the hunter world. My point is that it has been done many times and very successfully. I think as Gretchen said, with the right ponies, it is not a negative.

[VirginiaBred]

Do you guys realize that Farnley Belshazzar is an A/B cross? And that Farnley Lustre was an A by breeding as was Cymraeg Rain Beau?. It has obviously been very successfully done over the years and more so in the past with the older breeders.


You bet I knew that! My best broodmare was an A/B cross. I just didn't breed her.

If I'm breeding a welsh to a welsh, I'm staying within the sections. That's what I was saying and I believe Daventry was also.

[VirginiaBred]

And as an addition to my last post, I'm a fanatic about keeping the old lines alive however I can. I'm a pedigree snob and always have been. If I have a welsh pony and I'm breeding for a purebred welsh, I'll stick to the section of my mare.

I think there has been so much diluting of the stellar pedigrees that we are losing some of the famous lines.

[quicksilverponies]

Well I have to agree with you there, Randee:) I am a pedigree fanatic as evidenced by the ponies on my website, and am trying very hard to keep some old, proven bloodlines alive. I have no need nor desire to cross my Sec. B broodmares with a Sec. A stallion. I was just answering the OPs query and not trying to convince anyone of anything.

[bvsporthorses]

Thanks for the input everyone! I was curious as I have a small (12.2) sec B mare who is very refined and TB'ish. She has produced 2 lovely foals already (for previous owner) and both were clearly "stamped" by momma, much more so than by either of the stallions. I love love love this pony, great movement, extravagent jump and an A+ temperament. I would like to breed her this spring but would like to add a little more substance, but no height, a little smaller if anything! If I could pick anything else out I would like to add to it would be a little stronger topline. I have been looking into sec A and B stallions, there is one sec A in particular who I am very familiar with his offspring... including the one we had last year :lol: And I really like what he puts into his kids but also how he lets the mare come out as well.

I would love to hear some recomendations on any sec B's you think may fit my criteria :)

[Daventry]

Hmm, that would be a bit of a harder one to recommend - finding a Section B 12.2 HH & under that won't produce any height into your foal. Our own Section B stallion Alvesta Picasso only measures 12.2 1/4 HH and he tends to throw no height into the foals. With the purebred Welsh mares, the babies have all been the mare's height.

Otteridge Foxtrot would have been a nice cross as he was under 12.2 HH :( At the end of the day though, if yo are simple breeding for a hunter pony, I would go with whatever match is best for your mare ;)

Blue Who, owned by Sugarbrook Farm would be good. He's Half Welsh and stands 11.2 1/2 HH (I think he's actually 7/8 Welsh).

[bvsporthorses]

Daventry, thats exactly what I was thinking! I want to make sure we don't go overheight and I am planning on keeping this foal. It would definitely be for the kids to take in the hunter ring, once momma mare has taught them the ropes initially! I initially was planning on sticking with a sec B stallion but as you said it is harder to find a Sec B under 12.2HH or one that wouldn't add any size as we are maxxed out there already, plus her last 2 foals got some size from somewhere so I REALLY am hesitant to breed up in height even a little bit!

[VirginiaBred]

I would love to hear some recomendations on any sec B's you think may fit my criteria :)


You can't lose with:

Champlain Rainmaker (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com))
*Downland Rembrandt (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com)) - this one is 13.1 so may not work
Farnley Belshazzar (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com)) - he'll add size as well
Penrhyn Sporting Chance (www.daventryfarm.com (http://www.daventryfarm.com))
Trotting for Gold (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com))

Depending on the pedigree of the mare, I could add others.

[Daventry]

You can't lose with:

Champlain Rainmaker (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com))
*Downland Rembrandt (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com)) - this one is 13.1 so may not work
Farnley Belshazzar (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com)) - he'll add size as well
Sporting Chance (www.daventryfarm.com (http://www.daventryfarm.com))
Trotting for Gold (www.vpba.com (http://www.vpba.com))

Depending on the pedigree of the mare, I could add others.

Our Penrhyn Sporting Chance is a Section A so that won't work! ;)

[VirginiaBred]

Our Penrhyn Sporting Chance is a Section A so that won't work! ;)

I think it would as he tends to throw height. And besides, he thinks he's 16.3!!!!!

[Summerwood]

I have seen little Blue Who in person and he is an outrageous mover and is as cute as a button. I don't know if he would achieve your goal of the added bone, you would have to talk to Sandy about that one. She is very knowledgable and a good person to talk to. I am curious to see people's suggestions here. I can see why you are asking the question about crossing with an A and I think it is a good question to ask.
I have a 12.3 mare with some Sec A on her dam's side who is by a larger stallion (Cloe Olympian). She tends to throw smaller foals so I have to be careful with my stallion choice. It would be interesting to see what your mare's pedigree is and whether or not she has size behind her. You may have a lot of trouble getting a small. The last thing you want is a 12.3 pony like my mare (who I am lucky enough to own ;) ).

[bvsporthorses]

Farnley Belshazzar and Penryhn Sporting Chance were my top 2 picks! Thanks virginiabred, it would seem as though I am on the right track. I was alittle worried abuot height with Farnley Belshazzar though...

Mare is by Lands End Royal Fox, her dam sire is Gayfields Now You See It (X Sleight Of Hand).

[VirginiaBred]

Farnley Belshazzar and Penryhn Sporting Chance were my top 2 picks! Thanks virginiabred, it would seem as though I am on the right track. I was alittle worried abuot height with Farnley Belshazzar though...

Mare is by Lands End Royal Fox, her dam sire is Gayfields Now You See It (X Sleight Of Hand).

Excellent choices my friend! Let me know if you need phone numbers. :)

[quicksilverponies]

Both of them are excellent stallions. However, wouldn't Belshazzar throw too much size? I looked in to breeding to him a couple of years ago and was told by Richard that he tends to produce bigger than himself when bred to purebreds. Aren't there some purebred sons and daughters out there to get an idea of the size he throws?

[Summerwood]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=EVANS+AF+WOODS+COLOGNE&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Is this your mare? The mare I was speaking about earlier was bred to your mare's sire, who is 12.2, and produced a 12.2 pony. Sleight of Hand has some taller offspring but it seems that your mare's grandsire didn't get it. You can see some of the heights on the allbreedpedigree site so you have an idea of what you are getting into. Definately a good idea to talk to the stallion owners, who know their stallions best. Good luck! I bet she is gorgeous, Royal Fox is a fox indeed! :)

[rideagoldenpony]

The old school diehards frown mightly upon it. I make it my busines to pick the brain of those breeders and that's how I've always heard it.

I'm just saying.........

Current breeders may in fact feel that way, and I'm certainly not arguing with you, or them.

But there have been many excellent ponies produced through AxB crosses. Here are a few that jumped out at me:
Solway Master Bronze http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/solway+master+bronze
Farnley Prelude http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/farnley+prelude
Gayfields Vida Blue http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gayfields+vida+blue
Farnley Belshazzar http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/farnley+belshazzar (and his dam)
Coed Coch Olwen (dam of Sleight of Hand and his two full brothers with the Smoketree prefix) http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/coed+coch+olwen
And take a look at Downland Chevalier's interesting pedigree! http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+chevalier

While most breeders are not currently making crosses like that, they were commonly made in the past, producing some really wonderful ponies, who are the ancestors of some of today's top animals.

I've never personally made an A x B cross before -- for my own purposes, it is not necessary, but to say they are all bad is to use a very broad brush.

[bvsporthorses]

Summerwood that is indeed my mare :) As you said with the height in the Sleight lines I am a little worried about going over and having a very small medium pony! I would like to err on the side of caution (height wise) when choosing who daddy is going to be!

Good luck! I bet she is gorgeous, Royal Fox is a fox indeed!

Yes she is indeed quite gorgeous... a lovely bay with loads of chrome too! But her best asset is her temperament... she is a stellar babysitter for little kids! Never puts a foot wrong :)

[VirginiaBred]

Aren't there some purebred sons and daughters out there to get an idea of the size he throws?

Stay tuned to May, 2010!!!:cool:

[VirginiaBred]

but to say they are all bad is to use a very broad brush.


:confused::confused::confused: Where did I say that???

[cmdrcltr]

And as an addition to my last post, I'm a fanatic about keeping the old lines alive however I can. I'm a pedigree snob and always have been. If I have a welsh pony and I'm breeding for a purebred welsh, I'll stick to the section of my mare.

I think there has been so much diluting of the stellar pedigrees that we are losing some of the famous lines.

I am not a breeder, simply a Welsh admirerer, but I read the Welsh threads here with great interest. My first pony came from some of those old lines and, if I'm reading his papers correctly, has both A and B blood. His registration number was B-19770, but his sire and dam had no B before their registration numbers. His sire, Farnley Sunstone, stood at Liseter Farm I believe. His dam, Lithgow Gen Pen, also had no B in her registration number, but her sire, Kirby Cane Jay did, as her maternal granddam.

He taught me just about everything, and between his previous owner and I he did just about everything: saddle seat, hunt seat, dressage, western, pony club, costumes, barrel racing, trail riding, and both show pleasure and carriage driving. Before either of us owned him he was a harness racing pony. I'd have another pony like him in a heartbeat, regardless of the cross. BTW, he had to be euthanized just last year after puncturing an eye in a pasture accident. He was 6 months shy of 40 and had worked happily until age 38.

Here's a link to some pics if anyone is interested. Sorry if some are sideways or upside down. I did edit them and rotate, but I'm not sure it took. Photobucket is new territory for me.

http://s683.photobucket.com/albums/vv198/cmdrcltr/Sonny/

Do I understand it correctly that an AxA that grows over 12.2 is registered as a B in the US? Does that account for some of the early AxB crosses in the breed's history?

[Tamara in TN]

Do I understand it correctly that an AxA that grows over 12.2 is registered as a B in the US? Does that account for some of the early AxB crosses in the breed's history?

buy that poster a fuzzy yellow bear !!!

yep...the heights make up part of the standard and there have even been full A's by blood, animals that went over height and for years were suddenly "b" ponies and all their babies were B ponies

and as Gretchen so boldly noted,there are all KIND of AxB crosses in the big old world and many many make up the entire basis of the welsh ponies here in the States...

while maybe today someone would not cross a B from Wales with an A from Texas ;) trust me, in the not so long ago, it was done everywhere

Tamara in TN

[Summerwood]

cmdrcltr-What a lovely and useful boy you had. The reasons you loved him are the reasons I think so many love the Welsh breed--smart, loyal, loving, and just plain fun!! (not to mention beautiful to look at)
bvsporthorses--I am glad you are going to err on the side of caution. Good idea!! Royal Fox himself is also a very kind and honest hunter pony since being gelded and going on to a career packing little kids around. I tried to buy him not too long ago! :winkgrin:

[rideagoldenpony]

cmdrcltr - loved seeing the pictures of your boy! That is what Welsh are all about for me -- they can do ANY and EVERY thing! I hate seeing them put in a box as only one type of pony. They are so versatile and so talented -- and so dang FUN!

[unbridledoaks]

Summerwood - Royal Fox has always been a good pony to ride! I'm the one who bought him and gelded him. Loved that pony to death! Hurt me the day we sold him, but I knew he had more years in him for some other children!

[finelyfound]

OK, I'll add my two cents on the A/B cross.
First of all here in the US the A and B pedigrees can get a bit murky. So, breeding A to B isn't always quite so black and white.
I just acquired a Registered Section A mare who is 3/4 Section B on her papers and looks and moves like a Section B. However, she was registered as an A because of her size. I wouldn't hesitate to breed her to a Section B as that would be the most obvious cross based on her pedigree and her conformation.
I did buy a true A/B cross as a broodmare and she is an exceptional pony in every way. She herself has a little too much "Umph" to be a hunter pony, but bred back to a hunter type Sec.B she produced a perfect hunter type with a huge step for a small purebred.
Her pedigree http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/anderins+tootsie+pop
And maybe some pictures (I've never tried to link to FB) http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2012808&id=1567696267&l=310d094d1e
I can understand why some die hard breeders want to keep the two sections completely separate, but honestly in the US many B's already have quite a bit of A blood and vice versa.

[Dressage_Diva333]

OK, I'll add my two cents on the A/B cross.
First of all here in the US the A and B pedigrees can get a bit murky. So, breeding A to B isn't always quite so black and white.
I just acquired a Registered Section A mare who is 3/4 Section B on her papers and looks and moves like a Section B. However, she was registered as an A because of her size. I wouldn't hesitate to breed her to a Section B as that would be the most obvious cross based on her pedigree and her conformation.


That shouldn't be possible... Section A's have NO B blood. Section A + Section B = Section B, no matter what size.

FWIW, I have a stallion with a fair amount of A X B blood. He's a lovely pony, thicker than some (which I like, I'm aimed more towards the Dressage market rather than hunters). He's got a nice pedigree... all around a great pony. I intend to show him extensively under saddle, and I like him a lot for a riding type. I can't wait to get him out there and showing, he's a lovely jumper, and mover. The Welsh versatility is what he is all about, I plan on him doing a little bit of everything... definitely not being stuck in the typical hunter pony label... someone one another thread said about Welshes that they are 'a victim of their own fame' (was it you Tamara in TN?). I totally agree, they are super all around ponies, not just hunters. Section A blood can bring some more versatility to the table, with more expressive movement that can be a huge advantage in other disciplines.

Here's his pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rise+n+shine+daydream+believr


I agree with Gretchen... there are some absolutly lovely A X B's out there. I don't like the B X C or D either, but they are totally different type ponies.

Honestly, if an A X B would be a good cross for the individual ponies. DO IT. It's been done, it's been proven. Some people don't like it, fine, but everyone has different taste.

[quicksilverponies]

In years past, the registry was based on size. If a pony was over 12.2hh, it was registered as a Sec. B. Under 12.2hh was a Sec. A. Example is Farnley Lustre.

[Dressage_Diva333]

In years past, the registry was based on size. If a pony was over 12.2hh, it was registered as a Sec. B. Under 12.2hh was a Sec. A. Example is Farnley Lustre.

When did the rules change? Sorry, just trying to learn all I can :)

[rideagoldenpony]

When did the rules change? Sorry, just trying to learn all I can :)

Fairly recently. 10ish??? years ago. I don't remember the year, but DO remember the hubub!!

[cmdrcltr]

In years past, the registry was based on size. If a pony was over 12.2hh, it was registered as a Sec. B. Under 12.2hh was a Sec. A. Example is Farnley Lustre.

That's how my pony ended up a B--he was 12.3 hands.

[VirginiaBred]

In years past, the registry was based on size. If a pony was over 12.2hh, it was registered as a Sec. B. Under 12.2hh was a Sec. A. Example is Farnley Lustre.


He is an example because he was born here in the United States.

The Welsh Mountain Pony (Section A) may not exceed 12.2 hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_%28length%29) (50 inches, 127 cm) in the US or 12 hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_%28length%29) (48 inches, 122 cm) in the United Kingdom.

Section B ponies are taller than Section A with a maximum height of 13.2 hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_%28length%29) (54 inches, 137 cm) in the UK and 14.2 hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_%28length%29) (58 inches, 147 cm) in the U.S.

In England, the emphasis on the Section A is for more of a working animal and the Section B for riding appeal.

The change in height here in the United States was in the later1980's and I don't have an exact year. I'll find it.

From the rule book:

The purpose of this Society is to maintain a Registry for the recording of pedigrees and transfers of Welsh ponies and cobs, to promote the breeding and use of the breed while striving to maintain its purity and trueness to type and to further its welfare in every way.

[finelyfound]

The Section A mare I mentioned in my post was foaled in 98', so section by size was still in effect 12 yrs ago.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Dressage_Diva333;4634315]That shouldn't be possible... Section A's have NO B blood. Section A + Section B = Section B, no matter what size.

no not really...oversized A's make B's OR you cannot show them...anywhere except maybe hunters...

just like over sized C's are made into D's....blood or not the size policy remains

definitely not being stuck in the typical hunter pony label... someone one another thread said about Welshes that they are 'a victim of their own fame' (was it you Tamara in TN?).

yep t'was me....they are even called the "American Welsh" by more than one European breeder...reckon why ?? ;)

part of it had to do with just having what was here to use...the Downland type pony was not really here in the 1950's...Farnley was however, and you can look thru the old pics to see how their program changed thru the years as well...

the pony with the waayyyyyyy out toe flip that follows back to only a 12 inch stride behind and a long back, is not what was really intended by the Welsh breeders of so long ago...

now some like to say, "well we were here before the Society in Wales" ummm yes, you were, but at that time,you were some of the biggest moving fine harness ponies and saddleseat and (gasp) harness RACING ponies in the world...the whole welsh world was big moving A ponies....not low moving "hunters"

even in the 1970's there was still an all rounder ability in most strains of the Welsh....foxhunting and harness leading the way..

anyway, back to regular programming

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

Fairly recently. 10ish??? years ago. I don't remember the year, but DO remember the hubub!!

the screaming still echoes :) and was there not an" A "by blood who was made a B and the owner changed him back to an A after the rule was changed ? up somewhere in your part of the world ???

Tamara in TN

[Kareen]

The Sec. B is the youngest of all Welsh sections and has always been a blend of multiple 'ingredients' with a ton of foundation stock 1 and 2 still showing up in front rows of many many ponies. There is a lot of concern recently with Sec.B's losing type and quite obviously since the Sec. A is not only much older but also purer to begin with (as in only a pure Sec. A will make it into the studbook of Sec. A) it is only logic that Section A's must occasionally be re-introduced into the Section B's to maintain true Welsh type and characteristics (e.g. hardiness, Welsh movement)
I don't agree crossing A's to B's is generally frowned upon by 'the big name Welsh breeders'. At the 2008 F.O. I bought a lovely Sec.B weanling who is by a Sec.A stallion and to be honest has topped my wildest expectations.
If a Section B mare doesn't look welsh enough but Riding-ponyish I think they need to either be used to breed riding ponies or crossed back to a suitable Sec.A to get back the welshness. It's all a matter of goals and with the various strains and goals accepted within the Welsh breed I think the Section B allows for the most individual adjustments. Some of the 'northamericanized' Section B's may not be very similar to what European Section B fashion goes for and even within the UK I see different breeding goals and philosophies wherever I go. But that doesn't necessarily make them inferior in my eyes. A good pony is still a good pony. I do think a Welsh should best remain identifiable as such though so I would never frown upon a breeder's choice to cross these two sections.

I was wondering: As far as I know a Section B still stays a Section B even if it is smaller than 11.2 h whereas a Sec. A that outgrows the measure will be moved into Sec.B. And these are used within Section B all the time. That's where the Sec. B (among others came from) Does anybody think their genetics change by a paper formalty? I don't. So even if you disagree with mating an A to a B it remains possible because the outgrown A's get moved into Sec. B anyways and why should they not?

[Tamara in TN]

The Sec. B is the youngest of all Welsh sections and has always been a blend of multiple 'ingredients' with a ton of foundation stock still showing up

by the way, I love Herr Naughty Pants and his ever patient Mama

http://www.world-wide-welsh.com/node/28

Tamara in TN

[Rhyadawn]

My coach has been breeding welsh ponies for 20 years. When I saw this thread I talked to her about it and she agreed that yes, it has been done in the past. But shoudl it? Who's really to say. ;)

It used to be about size and type, now less so.

She did mention that in the last few years she has had a lot more calls from people with section C and D mares that want to breed to her B boys, and she's been refusing left and right.

Now if only the right warmblood mare would come along.....

[Kareen]

att. Tamara in TN, yes I loved that one too hehe. He was definitely full of himself that day *lol*
This is the Sec.AxB I mentioned before. We absolutely love him and I daresay his breeder did an ok job with that mating.

http://www.germanhorseconnection.com/main.php/en/pictures/03219

[Daventry]

the screaming still echoes :) and was there not an" A "by blood who was made a B and the owner changed him back to an A after the rule was changed ? up somewhere in your part of the world ???

Tamara in TN

Yes, I think you are referring to the stallion Bristol Sun God. When I first got into Welsh, that pony totally confused me as he had both A and B registered offspring...and sometimes he was stated as being a Section B stallion and other times as a Section A. Very confusing for the newbie Welsh breeder. :confused:

[Summerwood]

by the way, I love Herr Naughty Pants and his ever patient Mama

http://www.world-wide-welsh.com/node/28

Tamara in TN

That video was hysterical. He definately was there to be SEEN!:lol:

[LaurieB]

by the way, I love Herr Naughty Pants and his ever patient Mama

http://www.world-wide-welsh.com/node/28

Tamara in TN

OMG, I loved that video! I'm still laughing at his antics. What a cute colt and how embarrassing for the handler. :lol:

[Kareen]

She took it with a lot of dignitiy though. *lol*

[dmalbone]

Oh my goodness. That video was hysterical! What a show off.

[Sugarbrook]

SO.............I wonder how that little Dickens placed in his class? What a showoff. I loved the video. Thanks for posting it!!

[cmdrcltr]

cmdrcltr-What a lovely and useful boy you had. The reasons you loved him are the reasons I think so many love the Welsh breed--smart, loyal, loving, and just plain fun!! (not to mention beautiful to look at)
bvsporthorses--I am glad you are going to err on the side of caution. Good idea!! Royal Fox himself is also a very kind and honest hunter pony since being gelded and going on to a career packing little kids around. I tried to buy him not too long ago! :winkgrin:

Thanks, Summerwood. I miss him. My good friends tell me that the reason I've had so many horses to date is that I am looking for another one like him.:)

[cmdrcltr]

cmdrcltr - loved seeing the pictures of your boy! That is what Welsh are all about for me -- they can do ANY and EVERY thing! I hate seeing them put in a box as only one type of pony. They are so versatile and so talented -- and so dang FUN!

Thank you, rideagoldenpony! This got me thinking that it's not often that we see versatile mounts today; everyone has become so specialized. I recall going to local shows when I was a kid, and everyone rode their horses and ponies in several classes--western, English, jumping, games, driving, etc. I imagine one reason for that is time.

[rideagoldenpony]

Thank you, rideagoldenpony! This got me thinking that it's not often that we see versatile mounts today; everyone has become so specialized. I recall going to local shows when I was a kid, and everyone rode their horses and ponies in several classes--western, English, jumping, games, driving, etc. I imagine one reason for that is time.

At the Welsh shows on the west coast, we see the same ponies going in English Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Hunters, Trail, Pleasure Driving and Carriage Driving -- and not just getting around the ring, but being successful and winning. Competition in the performance classes out here is TOUGH -- but it is also fun to see how talented the Welsh are!

[quicksilverponies]

Mardi Gras sure is a great example of that incredible versatility!

[Summerwood]

If you do decide to go with an A, I would encourage you to take a look at *Pendock Larkspur. I don't know where you are located or if he still ships semen as he was born in '79!!!! But he is standing in South Carolina for the 2010 season and last year was #34 on the USEF sires list for pony hunters. There is a video of him on www.heavenlypony.com. He has got to still be pretty fertile because they had a ton of foals from him in the past few years. He has tons of bone and is a nice mover. There are also videos of some of his babies on the site. I think he is under 12 hands.

[VirginiaBred]

He is fabulous Summerwood, I couldn't agree more!

Dianne Randolph (www.hiddenspringsfarmllc.com (http://www.hiddenspringsfarmllc.com)) owns him and he is 11.3 hands.

He is amazing, and a personal favorite of mine.

Here are some pictures from The Paisley Pony:
http://www.thepaisleypony.com/stallions/gallery3.htm

[Daventry]

If you do decide to go with an A, I would encourage you to take a look at *Pendock Larkspur. I don't know where you are located or if he still ships semen as he was born in '79!!!!

Nope, they only do live cover with him now! :no: He's just too old for shipping. A few years ago, we begged for shipped semen on him for a clients Section A mare, but he just doesn't ship anymore. The photos and video of him do NOT do that pony justice. He is absolutely fabulous in person. I was honored to pin him Supreme Champion his first time in the show ring ever at the age of 28! :yes: Still to this day have never seen a pony come in the ring with so much presence and spark!

[shortbusgeek]

Hrmm... if you go to the Welsh Pony and Cob Society of America's website - http://www.welshpony.org - and go to About Us > Registry Rules, it looks like either the rule was never changed or the rule book hasn't been updated if the change took place after January 2006, as it still shows that a section A is only AxA. It still shows AxB = B and BxA = B.

http://www.welshpony.org/RULEBOOK2.pdf

3.The following formula will be used to determine the Section for Section A and B: A x A = A or B; A x B = B; B x B = B. Any Section A pony changed to Section B must do so on the grounds of being over 12.2. A form must be signed by the owner requesting such a change with the statement “I understand that once this pony is changed to Section B it can only be used to produce B, C and D foals, can only be shown in show classes open to Section B and may never be changed back to Section A under any circumstances. Section B ponies may not be changed to any other section for any reason. The certificates for all Section C’s over 13:2 hands in height must be returned to the Society headquarters for the addition of a "D" to their numbers. Welsh ponies and cobs should be measured as directed in the USEF Rule Book with the following addition: "When shod, the thickness of the shoe and pad at the heel, shall be deducted from the total measurement."


We're new to the Welsh Pony breeding scene, but are about to cross Midnight Sleightly Cool (by 2009 USEF sire leader Sleight of Hand) who is a section B with Menai Lisa May - an imported section A. From looking at their conformation, bloodlines and individual traits, we haven't seen any good reason not to make that match... can someone maybe give us a good reason not to that says only A should cross with A and B should only cross with B?

[quicksilverponies]

Your information is correct. Both of your ponies have lovely pedigrees. There is no good reason for not crossing an A with a B if the ponies are compatible from a conformation standpoint. Many of the long time Welsh breeders have done it many times successfully. Good luck with your breeding!

[VirginiaBred]

I just hung up with the folks at the Welsh Pony & Cob Society here in VA, and according to them, the United Kingdom changed the size in the early 1900's to be 12 hands and under.

The American Society has never made a size change. It's been 12.2 and under here in this country since it's inception.

[bvsporthorses]

Thanks for all the excellent info and suggestions! *Pendock Larkspur was certainly on my list but I had already discovered that he wouldn't be able to ship so unfortunately that made my decision for me. I am located on the west coast of British Columbia, Canada so a road trip for my girl that far just isn't an option :(

Does anyone know if Farnley Belshazzar can still ship? I havent had a chance to inquire about his yet.

[VirginiaBred]

Does anyone know if Farnley Belshazzar can still ship? I havent had a chance to inquire about his yet.

Don't know since I go to him with my mares. I'll PM you the number to call and ask. Doubtful since he's 27 this year, but I would ask for sure.

[pwynnnorman]

by the way, I love Herr Naughty Pants and his ever patient Mama

http://www.world-wide-welsh.com/node/28

Tamara in TN

OMG! That was too funny! Just when I thought he'd settled there, there he went again!

Thanks. I sure needed something to lighten up my day.

[Walmoor70]

I was hoping I could get advice on who to breed my pony mare to.
I have a 11.2 H Section A sired by Friar's Golden Sunrise. She is very refined, a beautiful mover ( hunter) and has a great jump. I am looking to breed her either this year or next to hopefully gain height, yet keep her amazing kid friendly temperment and her hunter qualities.
I understand this was a question on crossing the A's and B's, but I think I would have to, to get more height and not lose her hunter ways. I am breeding specifically to get a small pony hunter.

[quicksilverponies]

Yes, I think you would need to breed to a Section B to get the size you want. There are a few lovely ones in Canada now, including my own Land's End Rondo. I would look for a Sec. B with a nice flat open stride to cross with your Sec. A mare. Have you looked at the ponies being offered on the VPBA website in the stallion service auction? www.vpba.com

[Walmoor70]

Your Section B is 12.2 H I believe. This would be our mare's first breeding, so would I not need to go towards a medium?
She does have a substantial pelvis though for her height.
Rondo is very close to me (1/2 hr), so that would be nice.
My mare is a bay sabino with 3 white legs, a full blaze, roaning and one blue eye.

[quicksilverponies]

I saw your mare on your website - she is very cute. Yes, while Rondo has the type of movement you need to aim for, you might want to go with something a bit larger. I would probably go with something in the 13h to 13.2hh range. Of course, I invite you to check out Adagio as well as Rondo, and as I mentioned there are some other lovely choices on the VPBA auction list as well as at the WPCSA website, www.welshpony.org.

[VirginiaBred]

I have a 11.2 H Section A sired by Friar's Golden Sunrise.

I am breeding specifically to get a small pony hunter.


Since this is her first foal, you can go larger.

Trying to stay purebred?

If you aren't trying to have the foal stay purebred, then you could go with a nice crossbred stallion, no larger than 13.1.

[Summerwood]

Your Section B is 12.2 H I believe. This would be our mare's first breeding, so would I not need to go towards a medium?
She does have a substantial pelvis though for her height.
Rondo is very close to me (1/2 hr), so that would be nice.
My mare is a bay sabino with 3 white legs, a full blaze, roaning and one blue eye.
Your mare is adorable!
You probably would have to go with at least a medium I think. You have lots of really great choices to choose from with that height. The vpba auction is a great place to start, there are many really nice stallions on there. I have personally used and can recommend Sandy Holbrook's stallion, Sugarbrook Blue Pacific. He is very impressive in person and starting to really make a name for himself. Sandy is great to deal with. I also have used *Telynau Royal Charter and Tammy bends over backwards for her clients. I believe there is even a stallion or two from Canada on the site if you want to stay in Canada. Another one who is great and who is located in Ontario, is Stockhom Commander M, owned by the Morton's. www.mortonstables.com He has some outstanding foals here in the US. They are also very nice people.

[Walmoor70]

Not necessarily trying to stay Welsh. Just trying to keep all her amazing qualities yet improving height and step, though she does have the open stride to make the small lines if you push it. She isn't small stepped at all for such a little girl.
Any suggestions for nice proven mediums with great minds?
Her head could use improving, though tiny it is a bit flat and her muzzle a bit thick. I should put a conformation shot of her on my website.

[Walmoor70]

I will check those suggestions out.

I have a Stockholm Commander daughter and she is lovely and has his beautiful head, but I find his movement too up and down to cross with my small. My medium Commander mare has a great jump and a lovely canter, but her trot isn't good. I would think Commander would bring out my pony's Section A qualities stronger and not keep her step open enough for the small pony market? Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am not a Welsh expert.

I do like Sugarbrook Blue Pacific alot and my daughter does as well. I have to listen to her on these things, as this is her pony.:)

[Summerwood]

I will check those suggestions out.

I have a Stockholm Commander daughter and she is lovely and has his beautiful head, but I find his movement too up and down to cross with my small. My medium Commander mare has a great jump and a lovely canter, but her trot isn't good. I would think Commander would bring out my pony's Section A qualities stronger and not keep her step open enough for the small pony market? Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am not a Welsh expert.

I do like Sugarbrook Blue Pacific alot and my daughter does as well. I have to listen to her on these things, as this is her pony.:)

Honestly I have never seen Commander in person so I cannot tell you what his movement is like but the dam also could be the culprit of the movement. Grand View ponies does have a stallion by Commander that is lovely. Commander has been on the list of USEF top sires for pony hunters so he is capable of producing hunter ponies. He might be worth going to take a look at in person if you are not too far away from Morton's.

I have a colt from Sugarbrook Blue Pacific and he is very sweet and kind. I would encourage you to call Sandy to discuss him, she is a nice person and loves her ponies. She has a lot of experience breeding ponies so she can help answer a lot of your questions.

[VirginiaBred]

Not necessarily trying to stay Welsh. Just trying to keep all her amazing qualities yet improving height and step, though she does have the open stride to make the small lines if you push it. She isn't small stepped at all for such a little girl.
Any suggestions for nice proven mediums with great minds?
Her head could use improving, though tiny it is a bit flat and her muzzle a bit thick. I should put a conformation shot of her on my website.

Check out Tantallon All American. My good friend Margaret Bzdak owns him, but he is standing in Canada until April. http://www.baystarfarms.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=87

[quicksilverponies]

I believe he would be too small for her mare although I love the pony and own a full sister.

[VirginiaBred]

I believe he would be too small for her mare although I love the pony and own a full sister.

She would get a small pony with a big step! He's 12 1/1/2, so she would still have her small. :)