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Thoroughbred
May. 10, 2003, 01:08 PM
Jose Santos, jockey of Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, is currently under investigation when a photo appeared to reveal an object in his right hand.

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=15685

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=33300&subsec=1

I do not have the photo in question, but the following one seems to show only a whip in his hand. What do you think?

http://www.horsephotos.com/watermark.jsp?photoID=10704

[This message was edited by Thoroughbred on May. 10, 2003 at 03:26 PM.]

Thoroughbred
May. 10, 2003, 01:08 PM
Jose Santos, jockey of Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, is currently under investigation when a photo appeared to reveal an object in his right hand.

http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=15685

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=33300&subsec=1

I do not have the photo in question, but the following one seems to show only a whip in his hand. What do you think?

http://www.horsephotos.com/watermark.jsp?photoID=10704

[This message was edited by Thoroughbred on May. 10, 2003 at 03:26 PM.]

HopelessHunter
May. 10, 2003, 01:53 PM
Wow that is a really strong accusation to make of a derby winning jockey- are they really sure it was something? I just went to check on my Funny Cide picture that was in the paper, but it seems that my mom threw it out. Oh well!

"Riding is just a bunch of nuts and bolts. If the rider is nuts, the horse bolts!"
"Proud member of the 'I canter' clique!"

Elghund2
May. 10, 2003, 02:14 PM
There was a picture on Sportsline.com and it does look like something besides a whip in his hand.

"I thought I was dead once but it turns out, I was only in Nebraska."

LaurieB
May. 10, 2003, 03:16 PM
It's interesting to me that in one article I read, Santos is quoted as saying that he's not holding anything but he is wearing a bracelet. Then in the other article, he talks about holding something to cue for the outriders?

If in fact the articles are accurate, the fact that he's changing his story is probably not a good sign.

I have to say, horse racing does not need this right now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thoroughbred
May. 10, 2003, 03:24 PM
I just saw that article on Sportsline.com that shows the photo. Here's a direct link:

http://www.sportsline.com/horseracing/story/6363331

It definitely looks like there is something in Santos's hand. The article says that it was originally reported that he said he was carrying a "cue ring" during the race, but it was later said that there was a misunderstanding and what he said was that he was wearing a "Q-ray" bracelet for arthritis. I've seen numerous photos and have not seen any sort of bracelet on his right wrist. Further, why would a bracelet be between his fingers? As for the "cue ring", I do not understand why he would need any sort of device, if there was such a thing, to call to the outriders. Did anyone else notice a look of alarm to Funny Cide? Perhaps Santos was indeed carrying a buzzer or other illegal device, which would have worried the horse, if not have caused actual discomfort.

I'd hate for this to be the case, but all evidence points toward it right now.

[This message was edited by Thoroughbred on May. 10, 2003 at 05:36 PM.]

Lauruffian
May. 10, 2003, 03:38 PM
This (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/5828759.htm) is a link to the photo in question, and it definitely gives the appearance that something else is in his hand. I can't imagine Santos would be so stupid as to risk his entire career by carrying a buzzer (which no one has directly suggested, only implied) in the most photographed race in NOrth America, if not the world.

It certainly turns the Triple Crown upside-down. If Funny Cide is ultimately disqualified, then Empire Maker is declared winner--which means his reason for skipping the Preakness to rest for the Belmont would be moot, and he would be the one in position for conquering the Triple Crown. It puts Frankel in a very unusual position, to say the least.

It is reminiscent of the 1999 Arkansas Derby (http://www.hotsr.com/archive/1999/ap99/0417.html), where jockey Billy Patin was charged with carrying just such a device (and was taped dropping it onto the track) and longshot winner Valhol was eventually disqualified and the purse redistributed. It was hung up in the courts for a while, but ultimately, the disqualification--and resulting suspensions--stood.

This could be an event of such historic proportions as never before seen in horse racing, perhaps only comparable to when Dancer's Image was disqualified for being illegally medicated in 1968 and Forward Pass was named winner.

The implications are beyond huge. Funny Cide's victory was historic in its own right for beiung the first New York bred, the first gelding in 74 years, and the first winner for a first-time-at-the-Derby trainer.

Man, could this get ugly. At the least, it will all be verrrrrrrrrry interesting.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

breezymeadow
May. 10, 2003, 03:59 PM
There is definitely SOMETHING in his hand. In fact, if you look at the enlarged close-up, there is even a little reflection coming off of it.

It's not a "ring"; it's not a "bracelet"; it's not a "shadow"; & it's not the "light green silks of the jockey riding behind". . . . gee, what is it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

FatAppyRosie
May. 10, 2003, 04:05 PM
I am from hunterland so I don't know to much about racing, but I did watch the derby as I have every year of my life. But I do not understand, what would it be? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> buzzer or other illegal device, which would have worried the horse, if not have caused actual discomfort. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How can a buzzer cause pain or discomfort? I am really out of the loop here! Can't you tell. And also, what is an outrider..I feel sooo dumb right now! Sorry!

Member of the Appaloosa Clique
http://community.webshots.com/user/ifihadwords4u

Lord Helpus
May. 10, 2003, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lauruffian:
....comparable to when Dancer's Image was disqualified for being illegally medicated in 1968 and Forward Pass was named winner.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that terrible substance that caused Dancer's Image to be disqualified?? Bute. In an amount far lower than is legal today.

While a buzzer will ( I hope) NEVER be made legal.

But I just seems too bizarre to me --- WHY would a jockey of Santos's cailber use a buzzer when it would be so easy to detect in a picure? And what happened to it? From the moment when he passed the finish line and was picked up by the outrider, he had no chance to get ride of it.

The whole situation is just too bizarre to be believable. If untrue, it has tainted Santos's career forever which is a shame since he a a quality journeyman jockey.

From what I have heard of Barkley Tagg over the years, he is as honest as they come. I find it impossible to believe that he was a party to something like this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always live within my means, even if I have to borrow to do it.

[This message was edited by Lord Helpus on May. 10, 2003 at 06:17 PM.]

Lauruffian
May. 10, 2003, 04:14 PM
Yeah, Lord Helpus, it's so incredibly contrary that Dancer's Image would never have been disqualified in modern racing...but, it was illegal at the time. But I agree, a small dose of a then-banned substance is one thing--but a buzzer??

This just in: Bobby Frankel has announced he will run Empire Maker in this Saturday's Preakness. I do not have the exact quote (saw/heard it on TVG), but essentially, he said it may take a year or more for this to be resolved, so he has to take a chance in the meantime. He just may have the Derby winner, and he can't pass up a possible Triple Crown while legalities are sorting.

This will be one very interesting Triple Crown campaign.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

[This message was edited by Lauruffian on May. 10, 2003 at 06:52 PM.]

drifting cloud
May. 10, 2003, 04:48 PM
I just read a few articles about this, and at first I thought it was all just a bunch of B.S. Then I saw the blown-up picture and it does look like there is something (other than a whip) in Jose's hand.

I really, REALLY hope it isn't as bad as it looks. I can't imagine why a jockey would even try something illegal in the Kentucky Derby. I mean, it is one of the biggest races in the world and all eyes are on you. There are always thousands of pictures taken of the winning moment, and the chances are good that someone will get an incriminating photo.

The whole thing leaves me with a bad feeling in my tummy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"The power of acute observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

drifting cloud
May. 10, 2003, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How can a buzzer cause pain or discomfort? I am really out of the loop here! Can't you tell. And also, what is an outrider <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A "buzzer" is an electrical device used to shock the horse and make him run faster. Some jockeys have gotten in trouble for using them, but never before in such a big & important race.

An outrider is a rider on the track who ponies the racehorses and leads them on & off the racetrack. I guess they are kind of like "babysitters" for the racehorses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The power of acute observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

DMK
May. 10, 2003, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I can't imagine why a jockey would even try something illegal in the Kentucky Derby. I mean, it is one of the biggest races in the world and all eyes are on you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my first reaction, then I thought how many times have we seen an olympian's medal stripped, a BNT set down, a cyclist failing a drug test in a big race, a questionable baseball/bat in a major game, a superbowl player on steroids, and well you have to accept that it does happen even if it's perfectly obvious that all eyes will be watching.

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

Lauruffian
May. 10, 2003, 05:37 PM
There's now an article up at Bloodhorse.com regarding Frankel running Empire Maker on Saturday. Here's his quote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"If they disqualify (Funny Cide), even if it takes years in court, I got a shot at the Triple Crown," Frankel said. "How can I not run now? I don't know what the stewards are going to do, but they do say it looks suspicious. I had already resigned myself to the fact that I lost the Derby, and now, you never know. The drama continues."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

Lauruffian
May. 10, 2003, 05:46 PM
Santos is saying he said "Q-ray for arthritis," not "cue ring for outriders," is what he was carrying and that he'd been misheard and thus, misquoted. I did a quick search on the internet, and found this picture of the Q-ray bracelet in gold. (http://www.naturesbracelets.com/standardgold.html)

In my humble, unprofessional, and sheerly first-glance opinion, the bracelet does not seem to be the same shape and size of what may or not be in his hand in the questioned photo. That object seems bulkier, like a D-battery or heck, a large gumball. But I don't have one and again, I may not know what I'm talking about. Take it all as you will.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

LaurieB
May. 10, 2003, 06:24 PM
Barclay Tagg is quoted on the BloodHorse site saying that he has seen the picture hugely blown up and, in that state, it's clear that what you're seeing is Funny Cide's ear (the dark part) and Bailey's silks (what appears to be a reflection in the other photo.) Looking again at the smaller photo, I can see how that might be so.

However, the thing I can't understand about that though, is that if Santos has nothing else in his hand, why would he have been holding his whip in such an odd manner? Wouldn't you think he'd have all his fingers curled around it, to make sure he wouldn't drop it?

Lauruffian
May. 10, 2003, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, the thing I can't understand about that though, is that if Santos has nothing else in his hand, why would he have been holding his whip in such an odd manner? Wouldn't you think he'd have all his fingers curled around it, to make sure he wouldn't drop it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's possible he was in process of switching the whip's position. Just past the wire you see him (in video) kinda spin it around to the forward position, rather deftly done (and kinda cool). Just another thought that I'm sure the stewards are considering--checking all the video to see just what he was doing when the photo was taken.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

Tom King
May. 10, 2003, 07:09 PM
I thought Santos gave Funny Cide a brilliant go and I sure hope this turns out to be nothing!

Thoroughbred
May. 10, 2003, 07:22 PM
I agree with Lauruffian's suggestion that he was in the process of switching the whip position - I believe at this point that he was returning it to the neutral position. However, I seriously doubt that the dark space in Santos' hand is Funny Cide's ear and Jerry Bailey's silks. When you look at his forefinger, it looks like there is an object protruding in front of it. I don't think it's a shadow. Do you agree? Also, one question: Does anyone happen to know what a buzzer looks like? Not that that's the only object he could have been carrying, but that would be the most likely, I think.

Kellsboro Jack
May. 10, 2003, 07:32 PM
Its very disconcerting to see the odd pictures and hear the explanation - which too is odd - as to what he was in possession of. I hope that the Funny Cide crew is exhonerated of any suggestion of foul play.

One question: where did this all originate from? Someone or organization must've been scrutinizing post-race images, right?

Considering millions on TV never noticed anything plus a couple hundred thousand there didn't either .. nor race stwards .. nor NBC cameras .. etc. I'm just curious as to the equivalent of "the man on the grass knole" appears in all this.

All points
May. 10, 2003, 07:39 PM
The Kentucky Derby is world wide news. There is always a reporter looking for the picture. Kind of like the National Equirier of the stars. It only took one picture, to start the investigation into the video footage, to bring Valhol down. It really is something strange in his hand http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, but what is it? Maybe there is video footage out there that needs to be magnified 100%. Maybe not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What a mess, but changing his story is already a little odd to me. This is not good for horse racing, and Funny Cide did look a bit wild eyed to me.

Paloma
May. 10, 2003, 07:43 PM
Ok, I've looked at the photo and there does appear to be something in there. BUT, is it possible the photo has been doctored? The reason I ask is, I have tried to make my fingers stretch out as far apart as Jose's appear in the photo. Short of physically forcing them apart with my other hand, (and painfully, I might add) my fingers don't spread nearly that far apart. That small protion of his hand looks almost...unnatural? And if he has arthritis as he says, I'd imagine such a finger position would be difficult if not impossible for him as well.


Just a thought.

Kellsboro Jack
May. 10, 2003, 08:02 PM
From an article off the Daily Racing Form

DRF: 5/10/03 "CD stewards investigating Derby "battery" (http://www.drf.com/news/article/46285.html)"

The investigation was prompted by an article and photo in the Saturday editions of the Miami Herald. The photo, taken by Jamie Squire of Getty Images, appears to clearly show part of a small, bronze-colored, metallic object in Santos's right hand, with which he also is carrying his whip. Santos and Funny Cide had just crossed the finish line in victory when the photo was taken.

snip

The Santos investigation recalls a similar post-Derby furor in 1995. Slow-motion videotape replay appeared to show Gary Stevens, who rode winner Thunder Gulch, handing off a small object to Pat Day, who rode Timber Country, as they galloped out past the finish line. A subsequent investigation found no wrongdoing.

Zevida
May. 10, 2003, 08:07 PM
I've looked at the photo very closely with my young eyes while wearing my glasses and I can easily see the green of Empire Maker's silks and the normal shadows you'd expect on a hand in that position. His hand looks funky because he's in the process of switching his whip from pointing down to pointing up, which I (and I'm sure many others) can attest is no easy feat.

If Santos did something wrong, he should be taken down. But as of right now, this looks like a case of media sensationalism, many people jumping to conclusions (DRF! I thought you were a good guy! I can't see anything metal or shiny at all, unless you think the Juddmonte silks were sparkling that day!), and convicting a person who has no history of wrongdoing before any investigation has even started.

The Churchill stewards glanced at a photo, stuck their foot in their mouth, and said it looked suspicious. Now that have a full-blown scandal on their hands. They almost deserve it for the poor handling of the situation they've shown so far.

"We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are." M E M E N T O

Thoroughbred
May. 10, 2003, 08:08 PM
Maybe I just have more flexible fingers than you do, but it takes no effort for me to spread my fingers out into the position shown in the photo. Also, that finger position is quite normal when the rider is in the midst of either cocking or uncocking his whip. I doubt Santos' range of motion in his fingers is limited much - when you see him handling the reins and switching the whip up and down and back and forth, he doesn't look hindered at all.

Barclay Tagg saw the photo greatly enlarged and is indignantly insisting that it's clear as day, it's the ear and the silks. I guess I'll have to copy the photo to my hard drive, blow it up and see what I find.

I do have to admit that I don't know where the DRF got the "bronze-colored, metallic" bit from. When I looked at it closely, it did look slightly blue-ish.

Kellsboro Jack
May. 10, 2003, 08:20 PM
AP 5/10: "Churchill Downs Probes Ky. Derby Winner " (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=547&e=2&u=/ap/rac_kentucky_derby_jockey_photo)

From that article

He [Frankel] told the Blood-Horse Web site he was going to enter Empire Maker, after all, but later he decided against it.

"I don't think there'll be any change," Frankel said, referring to the possibility that Funny Cide could be disqualified in the Derby, "so I'll stick to my original plans."

Also ..

Regarding changing the story given by Santos

However, Santos told the Daily Racing Form that the Herald misunderstood. The jockey, who is from Chile and speaks English with a heavy accent, said he was talking about a "Q-ray" bracelet he wears for arthritis.

Frank Carlson, the Herald's horse racing writer, told New York Racing Association vice president Bill Nader that there might have been a misunderstanding when he interviewed the jockey.

As for finding other pictures well the Associated Press can't find anything thus far ..

Getty Images photographer Jamie Squire said when he magnified his picture he was able to "definitely see something in his hand besides the whip." AP photos did not show anything else in Santos' right hand.

"An examination of images made by AP photographers showed only a whip visible," said Bob Daugherty, who was the supervising editor for AP at the Derby and who has worked at least 35 Derbies.

Last time a Derby victory was give to the runner-up horse after post-race uncovered violations? 1968 "Dancer's Image "[DQ'd] after he was given banned medication. Forward Pass was declared the winner."

LoriO
May. 10, 2003, 10:16 PM
When I first looked at the normal sized picture I thought for sure he is holding something. Then when I looked at the 200 percent blowup, I could just faintly see the silks of Jerry Bailey through the hand and probably the horse's ear.

I agree with everyone else that it does look like he is in the process of switching the whip from one hand to another.

Hopefully the powers that be will make a finding soon ( and that it is the right finding) and end this turmoil!

"Member of the Western clique"

All gave some...And some gave all...God bless the USA

doublete
May. 10, 2003, 10:17 PM
Call me very cynical.. But as someone else mentioned.. this darn picture looks doctored to me. Look at how fake the whip placement is- it almost looks like he was holding the whip in that 'space' that we are calling a buzzer, but the people that doctored the pic removed the whip and pushed it over in his hand, but wanted to leave the coloring of the whip handle in there so that people would think something was there.
honestly, I think its a conspiracy theory type thing. It's BS though, either way. If you look at it from my point of view, and check out all the angles... I don't know, but I'm standing on my cynical hill and going to watch this thinking that its all a bunch of baloney.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Glimmerglass
May. 10, 2003, 11:07 PM
Appears to be an anomaly image at best and at worst its a smear campaign with intended consequences. Lets not forget millions upon millions are at stake.

Tonight I was watching an NBC affiliate that replayed the video again and they had close-ups from down the backstretch and after crossing the wire. The video shows nothing more than him grasping his whip. The single Getty image (are there more? doubt it) shows something far more bulky and should've been very clear in the video. By the way if it was a battery - where did it go?

This 'story' just has a funny smell to it, no pun intended http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If it wasn't the ugly fumble by the officials and NBC at the presentation ceremony then to have this "suggestion"... it almost makes you think the powers that be are against the little guys from winning.

fancypants
May. 11, 2003, 01:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LaurieB:
Barclay Tagg is quoted on the BloodHorse site saying that he has seen the picture hugely blown up and, in that state, it's clear that what you're seeing is Funny Cide's ear (the dark part) and Bailey's silks (what appears to be a reflection in the other photo.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's EXACTLY what I saw, even before I read your post. The area between his fingers is a combination of shadows, the horse's ear, and the light & shadows of the silks behind him. The dark area on his thumb is the shadow of the whip handle (and matches every other shadow in the picture).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, the thing I can't understand about that though, is that if Santos has nothing else in his hand, why would he have been holding his whip in such an odd manner? Wouldn't you think he'd have all his fingers curled around it, to make sure he wouldn't drop it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It looks like the way he's holding the whip is from spinning it around or something. Think about it - if you were on a galloping horse and holding a battery or something illegal, would you be holding it in open fingers while swinging your arm around, or would you be holding it tightly with the whip so you didn't drop it? People are also saying that he spun the whip around in the race. I don't think that would be very easy with something in his hand either.

For me, no matter how hard I look at that picture I don't see anything but hand, whip, horses, and jockeys. I think this is like those ink blot things, if you look at it hard enough you can see Big Bird in his hand. And I think there's somebody out there that didn't like Funny Cide's victory or who wants to be the 'hero' and discover a big story and tried to stir something up. If nobody else had said anything, would any of y'all noticed anything wierd?

------------------------------
YOU!! Off my planet!

Simkie
May. 11, 2003, 04:57 AM
Check out this version (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/sp/042903kentuckyderby&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=0&l=1&e=2&a=0) of "the picture"

Really looks like his hands just odd from switching the whip, and it's the ear and the silks.

But that picture on that sports site posted earlier really does make it look like there's something there &lt;shrug&gt;

(I can also easily get my fingers that far apart. NBD)

The Fjord Jockey
May. 11, 2003, 06:21 AM
I have watched the played tape a few times, and I am sticking to my guns about this: I don't think there is a single stinkin' thing in his hand.

I don't think his story "changing" as someone on this forum said earlier, is anything suspicious. Can you imagine the stress he must be going through? He's most like said things that were taken out of context (we all know how the media is).

As for the bands some jockeys where around their wrists: I've seen a few jocks wear those, and no, you CAN'T see them during a race. So the fact that you couldn't see it in the photo is nothing to be suspicious about.

I've held a buzzer before and know that while they ARE small, they aren't small enough to be able to have your hand FLAT against a horse while patting it. Just before the wire, Santos has a firm grip on his whip as he is hitting the horse, and there really isn't anything else in his hand.

Also, if you've ever twirled a jocks' stick before (I've got one and some jocks have taught me some fancy twirls...though I usually hit myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) your hand/fingers are stretched more than you normally can stretch them. Those whips are a LOT heavier than show whips.

ALSO, I notice none of you have brought up the fact that the odds of a jockey doing this without trainer consent are next to nothing.

Jose Santos is a big jockey, so you can bet he doesn't ride Funny Cide every morning. He doesn't have to. He most likely only breezes him. SO, to try and use a buzzer for the first time during a work or a race is insane. You have no idea how the horse is going to react...duck out, bolt, throw it's head and hit the breaks....you'd have to be plumb out of your noggin. Most likely the TRAINER would initiate the idea.

But like I said, I don't think there was anything in Santos' hand at all.

*J*
Licensed Fjord Jockey and collector of bobbleheads.

The Fjord Jockey
May. 11, 2003, 06:26 AM
I have watched the played tape a few times, and I am sticking to my guns about this: I don't think there is a single stinkin' thing in his hand.

I don't think his story "changing" as someone on this forum said earlier, is anything suspicious. Can you imagine the stress he must be going through? He's most like said things that were taken out of context (we all know how the media is).

As for the bands some jockeys where around their wrists: I've seen a few jocks wear those, and no, you CAN'T see them during a race. So the fact that you couldn't see it in the photo is nothing to be suspicious about.

I've held a buzzer before and know that while they ARE small, they aren't small enough to be able to have your hand FLAT against a horse while patting it. Just before the wire, Santos has a firm grip on his whip as he is hitting the horse, and there really isn't anything else in his hand.

Also, if you've ever twirled a jocks' stick before (I've got one and some jocks have taught me some fancy twirls...though I usually hit myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) your hand/fingers are stretched more than you normally can stretch them. Those

haligator
May. 11, 2003, 08:18 AM
Hi All,
I was really hoping I wouldn't have to wade in here and speak out, but I feel I must.

There is NO WAY that Jose Santos would even dream of doing something like this in the biggest race in the world. NO WAY. What should be a great time in his life is now being wrecked for no good reason.

The reporter for the Miami Herald is now saying that "the language barrier could have been a problem" for how he quoted Santos. Hence, this is not Santos changing his story! It seems he was misquoted. You've got to remember that Santos is from Chile, and speaks English with (at times) a heavy accent.

This whole thing smells rotten. Look at it this way: Kentucky is hurting from the effects of MRLS (mare reproductive loss syndrome). Now, a New York horse, a GELDING of all things, owned by the little guys (not Kentucky bluebloods), comes to Kentucky and wins the biggest race of them all. Horrors! How shocking! To some of Kentucky 'old boys network' there's no way this should happen, but it did.

Let's be real - there's a lot of money on the line for the Kentucky Derby afterward in terms of breeding, etc. Now, oops! A New York horse wins - light dawns on people that you don't have to breed in Kentucky to win a classic race. You connect the dots....

Hallie McEvoy - A Proud NY-Bred Thoroughbred Owner
Racing Dreams, LLC

Lauruffian
May. 11, 2003, 08:19 AM
I've also more or less concluded that the photo is just Santos changing whip position. It's been snapped at an awkward angle, so there is an illusion of an object, but closer inspection does make it appear to be just shadows and silks. Far more logical and likely a conclusion than a device. Additionally, the timing of the photo adds to the conclusion--I orginally thought this was the top of the stretch, but then realized by the jocks' position it was just past the wire. Knowing that Santos spun his whip at that point, it all made sense.

It's been an interesting progression of events, and I've more or less "thought out loud" on this board. It did appear to be an object at one point, but then once I changed my expectations, I no longer saw anything, if that makes sense.

How awful for Santos, Tagg, and everyone else involved with the horse. Hopefully this will blow over as fast as it blew up.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

Zevida
May. 11, 2003, 08:41 AM
Randy Moss has a good article about this over at espn.com in their horse racing section.

Santos switched his whip from the right to the left to the right coming down the stretch. Crossing the wire, he then twirled the whip so that he could raise it in celebration. After that, he patted Funny's neck with his right hand, open palmed. There has never been a suggestion that he dropped something, so where did it go?

The jerk at the Miami-Herlad who wrote the article is to blame. I hope that Santos, Sakatoga, and Tagg sue him and the paper for libel and clean up. The Churchill Downs stewards who added fuel to the fire by declaring the photo suspicious after glancing at it should be fired and I'd love to see the winners sue them too.

"We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are." M E M E N T O

Lauruffian
May. 11, 2003, 09:12 AM
Let's not avoid jumping to one conlusion by jumping to another. I highly doubt there's any great consipiracy behind the investigation, that the "good ole boys" are out to get the small-time owners and the gelded New York-bred. I have no vested interests in Kentucky breeding, and my knee-jerk reaction was "Hey, that looks like he's carrying something!" It had nothing to do with his background and everything to do with that pic. A more careful exam, and I'm whistling another tune.

I agree with Zevida--the jerk who wrote the article is to blame for calling "Wolf!" Everyone comes running, everyone looks for a wolf, for a while everyone believes there's a wolf, and then everyone walks away thinking "What a jerk! We've been had!" Was the reporter deliberately being inaccurate? Most likely no--just impetuous, unthinking, and largely unresearched. In a nutshell: unprofessional.

Honks my horn that I swallowed the bait, even if I did spit it out later.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

All points
May. 11, 2003, 09:28 AM
I just looked at the picture blown up 200%, all I can see is the silks of Empier Maker, and the ear of Funny Cide. I keep looking, but it still looks the same. In the smaller version it sure does look like there is something, but not when its blown up. I just got the TB Times, and there is a picture taken at almost exactly if not exactly the same time as the fishy one, there is nothing in his hand in the TB times one. His fingers are spread wide apart, but nothing there. Hopefully, my eyes aren't playing tricks on me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kellsboro Jack
May. 11, 2003, 09:29 AM
From today's (5/11) Times Union newspaper 5/11 "Funny Cides' win investigated' (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=133261&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=5/11/2003)

Both the Associated Press and Times Union photographer Skip Dickstein examined their images from the race, and neither found evidence to suggest that Santos was holding anything other than his whip.

"I've looked at my photos frame by frame from the sixteenth pole," Dickstein said. "There's nothing there."

[snip]

Knowlton said he's had nothing but positive reactions from fans and the media since the upset victory at Churchill Downs, but he clearly was disturbed by Saturday's report in the Herald.

"We're obviously upset that a couple of individuals are trying to get some publicity for themselves and taint what we felt was a tremendous story in the Derby," Knowlton said. "We've known Jose for many years, and there's not a doubt in our mind that there's nothing to this story."

Knowlton said he was surprised to learn that Kentucky officials were investigating the issue.

"The thing that concerns us the most is what we feel is a very inappropriate reaction by one of the Kentucky stewards who is quoted in this story as saying this is suspicious," Knowlton said. "(Co-owner) Dave Mahan and I both met with Jose this morning. He has not done anything improper in any way, shape or form."

LaurieB
May. 11, 2003, 10:02 AM
Like Lauruffian, I too have been thinking out loud here as the information becomes more available. Having initially thought I could see something in Santos's hand, I've now joined the other camp. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have to say though, I don't think there's any conspiracy here, only the media trying to make a story (or sensationalize one!) any way they can.

Haligator, surely Funny Cide cannot be the first non-Kentucky bred horse to win the Derby, can he? My memory for things like that is long gone. What about a horse like Cannonero II, wasn't he from somewhere else? Does anyone else know?

jparkes
May. 11, 2003, 10:17 AM
There's a thread on this topic over on Free Republic that shows another photo just a stride before the controversial one was taken. Here's a link to the site that shows the "third" photo. You be the judge...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/909552/posts

Secretplace Farm
www.spfarm.com (http://www.spfarm.com)

MAD
May. 11, 2003, 11:10 AM
Until the truth comes out, note to self:

Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.
Do not participate in any Derby threads.

DMK
May. 11, 2003, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lauruffian:
Let's not avoid jumping to one conlusion by jumping to another.

I agree with _Zevida_--the jerk who wrote the article is to blame for calling "Wolf!" Everyone comes running, everyone looks for a wolf, for a while everyone believes there's a wolf, and then everyone walks away thinking "What a jerk! We've been had!" Was the reporter deliberately being inaccurate? Most likely no--just impetuous, unthinking, and largely unresearched. In a nutshell: unprofessional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the Miami Herald saw something that looked suspicious, e-mailed a picture to the stewards, got a reaction that confirmed what they thought and asked the jockey his opinion on the matter all before breaking the story, how exactly did they behave in an "impetuous, unthinking, and largely unresearched" manner? It seems to me if the paper wanted to sensationalize things (see: Sun Sentinal, not the Herald), they wouldn't have bothered making the steward the first stop.

And how is trashing the reputation of the photographer/reporter any different from convicting the jockey based on the photo? Especially since he doesn't get to print this stuff without clearing it with the editor. If blame is placed it needs to move up the food chain.

I agree, lets not jump to one conclusion to avoid another.

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

SteepleChick
May. 11, 2003, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ALSO, I notice none of you have brought up the fact that the odds of a jockey doing this without trainer consent are next to nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I was thinking. Everyone is/was blaming the jockey on this one yet there is the even more giant possiblity that he was instructed to do so.

In whatever way, this was out done. In every photo I looked at, it appeared to just have a different image everytime. This was horrible for racing just as it was for everyone involved. Even though, you could say it was dismissed, I'd like to bring up one more point...

If he wasn't carrying anything, why did Santos say he did have something be it a cue ring or a braclet for his arthritis? (which I may point out that it could not have been b/c for one, there was nothing around his wrist as you can see in any of the photos and from reports and pics of them in the winner's circle, he was indeed wearing his braclet...on his left hand) A honest question really. Maybe it was the pressure of it all and he felt like he couldn't say it was nothing. Either way, I still don't see anything in Santos right hand as he passed the finish line.

Glimmerglass
May. 11, 2003, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Since the Miami Herald saw something that looked suspicious, e-mailed a picture to the stewards, got a reaction that confirmed what they thought ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the genesis of this matter originated a bit differently per the Washington Post story. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40153-2003May10.html)

excerpt ..

The photograph ran in last Sunday's [5/4/03] South Florida Sun-Sentinel. A reader telephoned Frank Carlson of the Herald [Miami Herald] and called his attention to the mysterious dark spot.

----

One question ... why didn't the Sun-Sentinel collaborate in this expose by the Miami Herald if they were originally "tipped off" by "someone"?

Zevida
May. 11, 2003, 12:31 PM
Stepplechick:

I think that the reporter's inteview with Santos is probably nothing more than misunderstanding on top of confusion.

Probably the reporter rung up Santos on the phone and said "I've got a picture that shows you were carrying something in the Derby, what do you have to say for yourself?" Imagine you are Santos and you are innocent. You rack your brain and blurt out "I had a q-ray for arthritis" which the reporter hears as "I had a cue ring for outriders" due to your accented english.

I think that not only is it plausible, it is likely. I know that if someone did that to me, I'd be trying to figure out what they meant and I'd tell them the only possible thing that I could be carrying or wearing in, on, or around my hand.

"We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are." M E M E N T O

DMK
May. 11, 2003, 01:03 PM
Thanks for the link glimmerglass, but it still shows they did a even more backup work (calling Blum who is well respected) for a story that fell into their hands.

BTW, the reader called the Herald, not the Sun Sentinal - the Sun didn't appear to be part of it. As for why they didn't collaborate, well it goes without saying that the Sun and the Herald get along about as well as the NY Post and Times. The journalistic gap isn't quite that far apart in the Sun/Herald case. But the comparison is not without merit. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If it turns out he was in the process of spinning his whip, then I think everbody who matters will be happy with that explanation, but it's just as wrong to make accusations of "altering photos" (like the negative would never be part of the evidence?) and shoddy journalism as it is to say Santos is guilty because you saw a grainy photograph in the paper or on the net.

As for the distinction of guilt between the trainer and jockey in cases like this... I agree that the trainer would probably have to be in on it, but that in no way alleviates the jockey's guilt. He can a) say "no" (how loud do you think the trainer's complaints will be?) or b) if he is spineless and worried about his career with that trainer, he can drop it shortly out of the gate without using it. He's more in control of the situation than someone in the grandstands.

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

findeight
May. 11, 2003, 01:45 PM
Yup, spinning the whip. I just did that on my mare then came home to see this..their bats are heavier but their fingers are bigger...Jose has his fingers just as I do when repositioning that bat from fore to aft in my hand.

Second question is why the lag of a week and why off of some photo mailed in well after the fact? You think the other jocks don't know the hows and whys of a buzzer? Think they are willing to look the other way for that kind of money and the glory of winning The Derby..NO if Santos had been carrying anything and dropped it there would have been no "blue wall" of protection. They'd have ratted on his ass in a heartbeat.

Lastly is Funny Cide himself. Now I have never been blessed with owning a racehorse but me dear sainted granmum took me to Santa Anita at about age 9 and taught me to read the Daily Racing Form and handicapping has been a sort of closet hobby ever since..augumented by contacts at the track when possible.
Funny Cide was a decent horse with a decent record against decent competition. He had a legitimate shot as one on the improve and was one of four I had picked..course I had money only on the other three. But his win was not an enormous surprise to me.
PLUS...oh boy did he get the perfect ride and great racing luck.

No buzzer was needed on this one and on this day.

What an unfortunate turn of luck for the industry.

Oh, BTW I will stick with Empire Maker and Peace Rules this weekend in Maryland.
Great racing luck doesn't often repeat and I think them much the better.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Lauruffian
May. 11, 2003, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And how is trashing the reputation of the photographer/reporter any different from convicting the jockey based on the photo? Especially since he doesn't get to print this stuff without clearing it with the editor. If blame is placed it needs to move up the food chain.

I agree, lets not jump to one conclusion to avoid another.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Point well made and received.

I'm not the journalism police, so I should leave it more to the experts to make such conclusions after more thorough studies rather than fire seat-of-the-pants opinions (which, as this thread shows quite embarrassingly clearly, are so friggin' fickle).

It is easy, if not just plain human nature, to look for someone to blame--big mess, whose fault is it? Has to be someone's fault, right? Jockey, trainer, steward, Kentucky breeders, "good ole boys," photographer, journalist, editor... It's just not always that simple. It will remain interesting to see just how this pans out; it may turn out to be just a long series of unfortunate coincidences, illusions, and rushes to judgement.

Gary Stevens is quoted in today's LA Times saying that some have called for Santos to never ride again; Stevens said he agreed--Santos may make so much money off the libel lawsuit that he may not have to ride again. Santos's agent had no comment whatsoever about that possibility--I'm sure that's the last headache Jose wants to deal with right now.

Oy. What an obscene mess. I still hold out hope that it will be cleaned up as fast as it exploded onto the scene.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

haligator
May. 11, 2003, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LaurieB:
Haligator, surely Funny Cide cannot be the first non-Kentucky bred horse to win the Derby, can he? My memory for things like that is long gone. What about a horse like Cannonero II, wasn't he from somewhere else? Does anyone else know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,
That wasn't what I meant to infer. There have been several notable winners from other states (i.e. Affirmed from Florida). It's just that there has never been a NY-Bred who won the Derby before, and that is what is blowing people's minds. I think it says a lot about the quality of the NY program (even though the Funny Cide's sire stands in Kentucky....but that's the great thing about the Ny Program. You can breed to out of state sires as long as your mare fulfills either the resident or non-resident mare requirements.)

Hallie McEvoy - A Proud Owner of NY-Breds
Racing Dreams, LLC

DMK
May. 11, 2003, 03:49 PM
psst, Hallie - when talkin' bout those FL bred Derby winners, don't forget Needles, Carry Back, Foolish Pleasure and Unbridled. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

haligator
May. 11, 2003, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lauruffian:
Let's not avoid jumping to one conlusion by jumping to another. I highly doubt there's any great consipiracy behind the investigation, that the "good ole boys" are out to get the small-time owners and the gelded New York-bred. I have no vested interests in Kentucky breeding, and _my_ knee-jerk reaction was "Hey, that looks like he's carrying something!" It had nothing to do with his background and everything to do with that pic. A more careful exam, and I'm whistling another tune. &lt;quote&gt;

Hi,
I appreciate your point, but do you actually think that the Stewards would have been so quick to point fingers if Empire Maker with Jerry Bailey won the race and a photo was questioned? I think the whole issue would have been handled entirely differently.

Just my two cents.

Hallie McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC

DMK
May. 11, 2003, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by haligator:
Hi,
I appreciate your point, but do you actually think that the Stewards would have been so quick to point fingers if Empire Maker with Jerry Bailey won the race and a photo was questioned? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

And I think it would have played out the same (and maybe worse) if the horse in question had been ridden by Pat Day and trained by Bob Baffert.

Now I suppose if Woody Stephens and Wolf had risen from the dead to train and ride the horse the press might be cutting them some buzzer slack while they were researching the whole "sell your soul to the devil" aspect of the Derby win...

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

findeight
May. 11, 2003, 04:13 PM
I disagree...if Jerry Bailey had been accused the same thing would ensue..
That NY bred thing isn't really that big a deal even around here. More power to them.
If any shennanigans are going on it's deep within the money in the parimutual take and has NOTHING to do with the horse or where it got dropped by it's dam.

Remember last year's Breeders Cup and the insider jacking around with the bets? That resulted in felony convictions?

No. Not about horses or where they were foaled. About big bucks bet and maybe the nasty underbelly of betting on any sport.
Whether Funny Cide and his camp were particpants or just caught in the backwash only time will tell.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

achcosuva
May. 11, 2003, 04:43 PM
I really don't understand how people can accuse someone based soley on that photo. I blew it up a bit on Photoshop, and it's obvious that the "shiney object" is just a result of shadowing and the silks of the guy behind him. Take that with the pictures (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/909552/posts) posted by someone else above, and it's pretty darn clear there's nothing in his hand.

I do hope he sues the paper for libel as this is going to be a permanent smear on Santos' reputation. Everyone will remember the accusation, no one will remember the clearing of his name. (Or at least, too many will remember the former without the latter)

-Anne, formerly Pretty Filly, now Four Socks. The proud new owner of Greg!-
-Code Of Silence (http://www.geocities.com/ahorsenamedgreg)-

Thoroughbred
May. 11, 2003, 07:01 PM
I had taped the Kentucky Derby, and I just looked at close-up video replays on NBC's coverage. Let me make this statement and end this debate:

Jose Santos held a whip and nothing else!

End of story. He had his fingers wrapped flat around the whip when he was urging the horse, and after the wire, he spun the whip around and opened his whole hand, just clutching the whip between his thumb and index finger; he also then blew a kiss to the crowd with the same hand. He is innocent, case closed.

Lauruffian
May. 11, 2003, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I appreciate your point, but do you actually think that the Stewards would have been so quick to point fingers if Empire Maker with Jerry Bailey won the race and a photo was questioned?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I do. Unhesitatingly.

Keep in mind, just a few years ago--1995--the stewards investigated some of THE biggest names in racing: Gary Stevens, Pat Day, and indirectly, D. Wayne Lukas. Yet another photo (of what turned out to be just a gimme-5-whoo-hoo! celebratory hand slap) gave the vague impression that Stevens, on winner Thunder Gulch, passed something on to Pat Day (who happened to be on the favorite and fellow Lukas trainee, Timber Country). Pat Day is the apple of Kentucky racetracks' eye, and the two horses involved were KY-bred.

I hold firm to the belief that no prejudices were a major motivation then or now. It's the premier American racing event, and it would've been a heckuva black eye for racing if anything like that ever had even the smallest fragment of truth. The stewards are understandably sensitive, as had any race-tampering evidence been ignored (and been true), it could've been a nightmare the sport might not be able to wake up from. That doesn't mean this was handled the right way, or even well, just that it does need to be handled.

I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better...some of the smaller countries are neutral.

doublete
May. 11, 2003, 08:19 PM
I just think this is stupid and I dont think its doing any good for racing or the current economy- yet another 'scandal'. My local news just now is broadcasting that Funny Cide's win is under investigation. So the whole world will get the news too late that Santos is innocent.
I do feel bad for everyone involved. And I do hope that at the end of the Triple Crown races someone (I dont' care who) issues an apology to Santos, Funny Cide, and everyone else involved.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

runaway*Riley
May. 11, 2003, 08:24 PM
ok anybody who knows racing should see that santos is just flipping his crop around for the finish big deal give the dude a break !!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Portia98
May. 11, 2003, 08:42 PM
I think nothing more will come of this - it's just too circumstancial. Seems ONE photo is causing all this stir, not a series of events or pics. Remember when Patin dropped the thing with Valhol, that was pretty blatent - I'm sure if something like that had gone on, at least ONE of the thousands upon thousands of cameras would have caught it.

I'm speaking from the Juddmonte camp (Empire Maker) even - I think this should go away, and it probably will. Sadly, it is a black eye for racing.

achcosuva
May. 11, 2003, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TracyG:
Sadly, it is a black eye for racing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to mention Santos' career!

-Anne, formerly Pretty Filly, now Four Socks. The proud new owner of Greg!-
-Code Of Silence (http://www.geocities.com/ahorsenamedgreg)-

Portia98
May. 11, 2003, 08:49 PM
I just looked at DRF.com and they have supposedly the same pic in question, but it looks far less suspicious than other postings of the same pic on other sites. What's up? The DRF pic much more clearly shows that there is space between his fingers, whereas other pics show something in his hand. I think someone has stirred the pot and is very dirty.

Four Socks - THAT'S FOR SURE! And everyone involved. I just hope it's all resolved before the Preakness.

Gravie
May. 11, 2003, 10:06 PM
I don't know. This is really interesting.

At first, I heard that the rumors said it was a cattle prod, or some other long sticklikething. And I was just appalled. I mean, what a bunch of sore losers, y'know? It's like they were just *looking* for trouble.

After reading it in the paper, though. He seemed to change his story around, which, according to Mummy, is "suspicious."

I hope for his sake it was just a misunderstanding, and that it really wasn't fluked like that.

Besides. How would he "sneak" it out there in the first place?

Uff.

___________

Petey's e-stall (http://www21.brinkster.com/peteykins/). Bio, stats, pics, + other goodies. Bring him a carrot! ^_^

___________

Invite
May. 12, 2003, 07:09 AM
My knowledge of buzzers and electrical devices is limited, but it would seem to me that Santos would have given Funny Cide a hand ride down the stretch so he would have been able to actually use the device if he was carrying it. I doubt he would carry a device and use the whip instead.

Glimmerglass
May. 12, 2003, 07:09 AM
Monday's New York Times coverage here (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/12/sports/sportsspecial/12derby.html)

excerpt below

Derby Investigation Is Coming Up Empty, Racing Officials Say

By JOE DRAPE

Kentucky racing officials have examined scores of photographs of the stretch drive and the finish of the 129th Kentucky Derby as well as videotape from the entire race and have found no evidence to support the suggestion that the jockey Jose Santos carried an illegal device ....
[snip]

The Kentucky racing stewards have pored over an even greater number of photos, as well the NBC tape and footage shot by Churchill Downs from various vantage points, and have yet to discover evidence that Santos was carrying anything, the racing industry officials said. In addition, one of them said, racing officials in Kentucky searched the racetrack and turf course where Santos and Funny Cide had to cross for the postrace ceremonies and did not find any illegal device.

....................
Sounds like it should be concluded today and Santos cleared of any wrongdoing. What bites it that he might not be able to attend the celebrations in Saratoga Springs today.

Anne FS
May. 12, 2003, 07:45 AM
I don't think it will be a black eye for Mr. Santos or for racing. I think that by the Preakness it will be clear he is innocent & the commentators will be sure to make that point, that the race was clean, the jockey was clean.

Anyone know where we can write him if we want to show him support?

Anne FS
May. 12, 2003, 07:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
If it wasn't the ugly fumble by the officials and NBC at the presentation ceremony <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was this?

Policy of Truth
May. 12, 2003, 08:46 AM
I hate that this has happened to the racing world http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Santos is an EXCELLENT rider, who I would LOVE to see win the Triple Crown, though I realize this would not be likely. It sure would make me feel better about what the press has done to him, though! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

drifting cloud
May. 12, 2003, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Gary Stevens is quoted in today's LA Times saying that some have called for Santos to never ride again<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why have some people called for this? To protest the mudslinging? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Well, in the articles today it seems like the scandal is dying down a little. Geez...Funny Cide's connections sure don't need this on top of trying to get their horse ready for the Preakness! I can't imagine the pressure they must be under. Here's hoping that Funny Cide will win the Preakness AND the Triple Crown! That would be the ultimate "f you" to all the mudslingers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The power of acute observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

Madeline
May. 12, 2003, 08:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lauruffian:
[QUOTE]However, the thing I can't understand about that though, is that if Santos has nothing else in his hand, why would he have been holding his whip in such an odd manner? Wouldn't you think he'd have all his fingers curled around it, to make sure he wouldn't drop it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's possible he was in process of switching the whip's position. Just past the wire you see him (in video) kinda spin it around to the forward position, rather deftly done (and kinda cool). Just another thought that I'm sure the stewards are considering--checking all the video to see just what he was doing when the photo was taken.

I want to know where he got "it." He obviously has nothing extra in his hand in this photo.
http://www.horsephotos.com/watermark.jsp?photoID=10704

Put a pencil in your hand try flipping it from "up" to "Down" and it's easy to see why he's holding the whip that way.

madeline

madeline

LaurieB
May. 12, 2003, 10:07 AM
drifiting cloud, I believe the quote from Gary Stevens actually had to do with him saying that Santos would neverhave to ride again because the libel suit that he could win as a result of this would be enough to support him for life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glimmerglass
May. 12, 2003, 11:36 AM
** CASE CLOSED ** - SANTOS CLEARED OF ANY WRONGDOING

Winning Derby Jockey Cleared of Cheating

By RICHARD ROSENBLATT, Associated Press
Last updated: 1:15 p.m., Monday, May 12, 2003

LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- Jockey Jose Santos was cleared Monday of any wrongdoing in riding Funny Cide to victory in the Kentucky Derby, two racing sources told The Associated Press.

Santos met with Churchill Downs stewards who investigated whether he held something in his hand besides his whip when he crossed the finish line on May 3. A photograph prompted the inquiry.

One of the sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said there was no evidence Santos used an illegal device to win.

Santos and Bernie Hettel, chief state steward and executive director of the Kentucky Racing Commission, were scheduled to attend an afternoon news conference at Churchill Downs. A photo presentation was planned during the briefing.

After the 90-minute meeting at the track, Santos, along with his lawyer and agent, drove away without comment.

The stewards spent the weekend poring over scores of photos and videotape of Santos, one of the sources said. The stewards also searched the racetrack and turf course where Funny Cide and Santos crossed for postrace ceremonies and did not find any illegal device, the source said.

Stewards decided to investigate after The Miami Herald published a photo that appeared to show Santos might have been carrying something besides his whip in his right hand as he crossed the finish line. A Herald reporter on Thursday night brought the image to the attention of the stewards, who have ultimate authority over race results.

The Getty Images photo, which ran in several newspapers the morning after the race, depicts a dark area in the space between Santos' hand and his whip. It is unclear whether the area is a shadow, the green background of another jockey's silks or something else.

Funny Cide, a 12-1 shot, beat favorite Empire Maker by 1 3/4 lengths to become the first gelding to win the Derby since 1929.

Funny Cide could have been disqualified if it had been determined Santos carried something illegal, such as a battery or hand-held electrical device to shock the horse into running faster.

Kentucky Racing Commission rules do not prohibit a jockey from holding an object besides his whip, other than those specifically banned.

Race replays show that Santos switched the whip from his right hand to his left and back to his right during the final three-sixteenths of a mile. Funny Cide's trainer, Barclay Tagg, said it would take a special jockey to pull off the feat while carrying something else.

"If you can move the reins and move the sticks (whip) and still get rid of something you have to be a pretty good juggler," the trainer said.

A Derby winner has been disqualified only once -- Dancer's Image in 1968 after he was given banned medication. Forward Pass was declared the winner.

Trainer Bobby Frankel reaffirmed his decision to enter Peace Rules in the Preakness on Saturday and run Empire Maker next in the Belmont Stakes on June 7.

Frankel had considered Empire Maker for the Preakness on the chance the Derby finish could change, but went back to his original plan.

Trainer Bob Baffert, who will saddle Senor Swinger in the Preakness, defended Santos, saying top riders "wouldn't even think to do anything like that." He said the stewards' ruling was good for racing.

"In this game, integrity is very important for us and for the gamblers," Baffert said.

"The bad thing is that it's the Kentucky Derby -- our most sacred race -- and that's why it's such a big deal."

Santos won the Eclipse Award in 1988 as the nation's outstanding jockey and was the leading rider in purse earnings from 1986 to '89. This was his first Derby win, but he did ride 43-1 shot Volponi to victory in the Breeders' Cup Classic last October.

The Herald reported that Santos said he carried an object in his hand during the race and that he described it as a "cue ring" to alert an outrider to his presence. An outrider is a rider aboard a pony who can guide a thoroughbred before and after the race.

However, Santos told the Daily Racing Form that there was a misunderstanding. The jockey, who is from Chile and speaks English with a heavy accent, said he was talking about a "Q-Ray" bracelet he wears for arthritis.

Frank Carlson, the Herald's horse racing writer, told New York Racing Association vice president Bill Nader that there might have been a misunderstanding when he interviewed the jockey. Carlson's conversation with Nader was released in a statement by the NYRA at Belmont on Saturday.

Later, in a statement released by the Herald, Carlson said he went through his notes and believed he quoted the jockey accurately.

"What I wrote and what was in the newspaper is what I understood him to say," Carlson said.

Copyright 2003 Associated Press.

findeight
May. 12, 2003, 02:47 PM
Y yo hablo espanol y Sr. Santos no hablo ingles muy bien.
And that's the rub here. I doubt he even understood the questions much less changed his story, perhaps he understood the question differently.

I hope Mr. Santos sues the pants off of whoever started this mud slinging episode.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

A Splash of Color
May. 12, 2003, 03:22 PM
Frank Carlson ... Jayson Blair -- twins separated at birth?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Joan S.
Photo Albums (http://community.webshots.com/user/jsflwr)

FatAppyRosie
May. 12, 2003, 04:33 PM
YAY!!! I am glad Santos got cleared, but I feel bad for the poor guy. And I agree with the person who said I hope he wins just to rub it in the press' face.

Here's to Santos and Funny Cide on there way (hopefully) to the Triple Crown!

Member of the Appaloosa Clique
"I'm going to the barn where the world makes sense"
http://community.webshots.com/user/ifihadwords4u

Lord Helpus
May. 12, 2003, 05:27 PM
Santos ought to sue anyone and every one, except that he would have to show malice.... But Churchill and Ky officials should certainly have looked at other photos BEFORE making a statement!

I love Baffert's comment at the end of this article (and I agree with him)

bloodhorse.com &gt;&gt; News
AP Photo Clearly Shows There is No Object in Santos' Hand
by Steve Haskin
Date Posted: 5/11/03 4:18:50 PM
Last Updated: 5/11/03 4:18:50 PM


Associated Press photo, similar to one published by the Miami Herald that touched off controversy.
AP/Timothy D. Easley Photo
An Associated Press photo that appeared in Sunday's New York Post all but puts to rest the investigation of Jose Santos. The photo clearly shows the green Juddmonte Stables' silks of Empire Maker through Santos' outstretched fingers as he is about to raise his whip in triumph.
Although Santos and his attorney, Karen Murphy, are scheduled to appear before the Churchill Downs stewards on Monday at 8 a.m., Murphy told the Post it is "not a hearing. It is an informal gathering."

The incident, initiated by a story and photo in the Miami Herald, sent shock waves through the racing industry, and became the lead news story on the NBC and CBC 11 o'clock news. It was exacerbated when Churchill Downs steward Rick Leigh called the photo "very suspicious."

"I was so mad when I read about this," said trainer Bob Baffert. "I feel so bad for Santos, and for his little boy, who had to hear all this. After everything that's happened, I hope Funny Cide wins the Triple Crown."



Copyright © 2003 The Blood-Horse, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always live within my means, even if I have to borrow to do it.

Thoroughbred
May. 12, 2003, 09:05 PM
I agree with Bob Baffert on this one. That poor kid (Jose Santos, Jr.), he was so thrilled about his father winning the Kentucky Derby, and then he had to hear these accusations that he was carrying an illegal device to win the race.

Two other facts which should have made more people (including myself, initially) give Jose the benefit of the doubt were these: he swiftly and smoothly switched whip hands three times in the stretch, and the horse acted completely normal. Wouldn't it have been difficult for Jose to juggle whip, reins, and buzzer, and wouldn't Funny Cide have been wringing his tail or otherwise behaving oddly, if he was being urged with an illegal device? As for the horse looking alarmed, Jose did apply the whip very liberally in the race, much more than usual - I think I counted 18 strikes (although at least he didn't seem to be using as much force in his whipping as Jerry Bailey and Edgar Prado). He may have been a little high-strung on Derby fever, and the horse probably felt that too.

Glimmerglass
May. 12, 2003, 10:49 PM
While unlike the New York Times and their recent uncovering of misjudgment (well coupled without and out fraud) resulting in their mia culpa, the Miami Herald hasn't said the same for their sorry.

However as a bit of consolation they have printed a nice selection of letters from readers who for the most part consider the paper and writer to be ... well I'll let you read them:

Miami Herald: 5/12 "What readers are saying about the photos" (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/5843065.htm)

I did like this one: "It is this kind of shoddy tabloid reporting that makes readers cringe and look elsewhere for responsible sources for information. It is my sincere hope that in the future the Miami Herald chooses to spend even a minimal amount of time and effort exploring the validity of such a story before choosing to put it in your paper. Good luck in your efforts to become a true source of news rather than a platform for sensationalism.