Report from the USAE Breeders Committee [Archive]

ise@ssl

Jun. 27, 2003, 08:32 AM

DITTO - on the training issue.

Denny - WHERE ARE THE PROFESSIONALS THAT JUST WANT TO START YOUNG HORSES??

They are wall to wall in Europe. Here - most of our top riders won't even consider bringing a young horse along. Reiner Klimke was fine with it - our FEI riders won't look at anything that's not competing PSG and schooling GP.

As far as the Jumpers - well in Europe all of those horses have tremendous foundations in flatwork - here the focus isn't on flat work anymore. Most young kids ride hunters with their butts in the air the whole time - no flat work, no grids, no gymnastics - they just want ribbons!! Most can't canter seated on the saddle. They have spurs on by the time they are 7 and never ride without using the crop. Leg?? what leg?

I'm in NJ - training board is $1000 a month if you can find a place that IS JUST FOR STARTING YOUNG HORSES. Most that have quality facilities, good turn out, etc. etc. (AND ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO MONITOR THE HORSE'S TRAINING) are also boarding facilities. Problem there is you have boarders who pay big bucks to be there and have no patience for nor understanding of just backed youngsters. Usually a recipe for problems.

I'm 52 - having been breeding for 15 years - do I really want to spend $100,000 +++ on an indoor. My taxes are off the richter scale now. I can't justify it without TAKING IN BOARDERS. Back to the recipe that doesn't work.

I keep telling trainers in Europe - come over - build a generic facility - and just take in young horses to back and start with a good solid foundation in Dressage, Jumping (both in a chute and under saddle) and YES!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif some cross country schooling and hacking. Just the basics - no glitz - no glamour. The trailers would have the New Jersey Turnpike bumper to bumper!

We've lost our "horsemen" Denny!! That's what the problem is IMHO. No one wants to be that anonymous person that brought the kid along - every one wants to win ribbons! They want MADE HORSES. So our carry puts a price tag that CANNOT compete with Europe. Their horse market is depressed and they have incredibly low prices on super horses.

I have a fabulous 3 yo for sale $15,000 - could do any discipline (and http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he's out of a TB mare!) - also a wonderful 2 yo for $9500. People on the East coast can get a made undersaddle horse and import for those prices right now! Do I blame them for not buying here - no. But by the time I put training on these boys - well you can see where the numbers are going - not down.

We can put the breeders through a meat grinder over and over again but we've discussed this at the ISR/OLDNA board meetings over and over again - we have NO TRAINERS FOR YOUNG HORSES ANYMORE. That's probably the reason all these "round pen" guys are laughing all the way to the bank - it's the only alternative for people who can't start the young ones themselves. And some of us would if we could - but a broken back ended my climb on the back of any green 3 yo's forever.

Sorry to sound a bit frazzled but I've written to the COTH many times about this - the lack of training isn't going away it gets worse and the great minds of training like Bertalen de Nemethy, etal are passing away.

Who, I ask you, is carrying on the tradition of horse training in North America? Where are the "new names" in trainers - all we see are older trainers or "imports" from Europe or elsewhere. Can't blame those who bring in the trainers from elsewhere - the results in competition are obvious.

Debbie MacDonald commented that the success of the US Dressage riders was Klaus's ability to get the riders more connected to their horses (I paraphrase) - I yelled "YES" out loud when I read that. Where, oh where, is the emphasis on teaching the next generation of riders - young Young Riders about horsemanship and partnership with the horse - AND NOT JUST ABOUT WINNING RIBBONS AND CHAMPIONSHIPS. I mentioned that I learned to jump in a jumping chute to someone and one of the young people standing neaby asked me what that was. I told them we had to go through with arms out to the side and no irons - through that chute with straight rails set up all the way down. Their response was just a look of dis-belief.

You reap what you sow and we aren't planting the right seeds anymore. I'm exhausted from breeding superior horses and they are competing and their owners love them and most were started by amateurs but it's a 24/7/365 effort that I couldn't have done if I hadn't had a career in the financial world before I put on the muckers full time.

If you are in NJ - let us know - we'll take you around to some smaller breeding farms and show you some super equinie athletes. You show us the trainers for them and we'll call it a draw.

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jun. 27, 2003 at 12:43 PM.]

meghan1963

Jun. 27, 2003, 08:38 AM

I am not sure what American bred stallion was on the team in Aachen - if you mean Royal Kaliber - he was bred in Holland by J. LAMERS. Not sure what other horse you could be refering to from Aachen.

The other horse who represented the USA in the World Cup is Judgement of Iron Spring Farm. He is indeed American bred and born. Both his parents were imported from Holland but Judgement was bred & born in good ole Coatesville, PA.

Meghan

CM Frank

Jun. 27, 2003, 08:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> If the USAE really wants to help breeders - make our identity mandetory on ALL SHOW ENTRIES. This does a great service to both the breeders and the buyers. You can see who produces performance horses and you can see who doesn't!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Entry blanks are not submitted to USAE Equestrian and are subject to the (frequently) poor memory of the person who is filling them out. The simplest solution is for breeders to enter their mares, foals and stallions in the USAE database. Horse ID numbers are FREE until further notice and offer breeders an opportunity to document their products (complete with breeder information)in the master database and track their careers. The Leading Sire, Leading Breeder (coming soon to the internet) and Leading Owner lists are built from Stallion, Breeder and Owner IDs. VERY few breeders even make the effort to take advantage of this opportunity.

We are also working on Stallion and Mare reports similar to the Jockey Club's which are again, powered by the database itself.

CM Frank

Jun. 27, 2003, 08:43 AM

Additionally, we are working on a product that will allow the media and show announcers to retrieve breeding information and past performance for a feature class or an entire show.

Snowbird

Jun. 27, 2003, 08:54 AM

Well Denny there you have it, why do the "elite" go to Europe to buy because they've been taught to believe the horses are better and yet the Europeans are national minded enough not to sell us their best but the ones they know they can beat.

Give me a break it's the fashion isn't it? I am totally in favor of whatever measures are necessary to make sure that both members of our Olympic partnerships are American. I here and only here agree with the French who insist on a French bred horse for the French Team.

The entire program needs to be re-organized so that the Breeders get credit for their efforts and perhaps a ladder here so that eventualy there is a challenge of the Breeds sorting out the best horses American bred. Perhaps we need to consider qualifying horses separately from the rider. Yes! subsidies wouldn't hurt either. Here in New Jersey although these days it's a pittance the Equine Advisory Board distributes award cash to the breeders which they get from the race tracks handle.

The possiblity of a similar Federal Program always exists. In fact as the Department of Agriculture depends more and more on horses as a farm product breeding here can be encouraged.

This is the same old "chicken and egg" debate that always stops any chance of a new idea out of the box that focuses on a goal instead of on the Olympians.

Is it we don't have knowledgeable breeders for better horses or is it that we don't give the knowledgeable breeders an opportunity to be considered because it's easier to go to Europe and not as risky.

Battle Scarred Veteran

NYbreeder

Jun. 27, 2003, 09:50 AM

Meghan-- the question was, what stallion "just competed as a member of a European team in Aachen." Hint: he didn't even jump a stick.

lorik

Jun. 27, 2003, 10:05 AM

Cheryl,
Please tell me more about this USAE database you describe. How easy will it be to retrieve information for a given horse? I'm thinking about the possiblity of checking the entries I get to be sure I have the correct spelling of sires/dams/dam's sire/ and the correct breeder etc. As it is, I spend an average of 30 minutes on each entry now with data input and checking information. I'd like my entries to be as complete and correct as possible. I don't want to interrupt the flow of this thread, so could you please e-mail me at lorik@iximd.com? Thanks
Lori Kaminski
Breed Show Secretary
Dressage at Devon

CM Frank

Jun. 27, 2003, 10:14 AM

Lori

Email me directly at cmfrank@equestrian.org. We will make sure you have everything you need for accurate results.

mbp

Jun. 27, 2003, 10:14 AM

NY Breeder - thanks for getting the juices going. Is one of the answers Idocus? Wasn't he bred here or am I mistaken on that?

I'm thinking hard on the others.

Some other points.

1. I think until relatively recently (last 25 or so years?) a lot of the sport breeding (not all, but I think you have to admit a big majority) that has been done here has been targeted to the hunters, so it is not as likely to have resulted in a 3-day, dressage or jumper USET horse.

2. Why do we have to throw out racetrack horses? They had breeders who were dedicated to breeding an athlete. If someone breeds for a jumper that ends up being a dressage horse (I'm thinking maybe like a Corlandus that is mostly jumper lines) then do we toss them out bc they weren't what was bred for?

3. In the dressage arena, I do think that one issue we have is that we have had a lot of foreign riders and trainers who are now either training our US riders or are on our team. They come from backgrounds where they are more familiar with the bloodlines, contacts and breeders overseas, so they send folks there, so the cycle of the top rider's and their prospect searches gets completed overseas. We don't seem to have any mechanism to get top breeders and top trainers "hooked up" here in the states, whereas some of those trainers have had years and a generational background in their home countries of contacts and bloodline immersion there -so they are more comfortable dealing there. How are we hooking up the top riders and trainers, with local breeders?

4. Statistically, if you look at the sheer numbers of horses being produced for sport in Europe - well, just as a numbers game, when you are talking about the relative rarity of an international horse - wouldn't it make sense that they are mostly coming from Europe? Our numbers are picking up though.

5. IMO, as a broken record, the system of multiple registries that we adopted in this country when we began to pursue warmblood breeding is very counterproductive to enabling the breeders to really make progress. Instead of having coordinated regional breeding efforts, you get a lot of fragmentation between 5 or 6 registries spread out over 20-30 breeders in an area. How many smaller breeders who do not stand stallions and have a farm have inspections within 6 hour hauls? How many regions can fill mpts when they have to limit to just Hannoverian or just Swedish, etc.? I would like to see USDF or USAEq try to start regional breeding GMOs, like USDF GMOs, and offer things like mpts or young horse riding tests under its auspices, with participation open to the various registries. I think you could really start having these then. I also think that once you are talking under saddle testing - mares or young horses, you will start getting spectators and possible buyers. It also give breeders a great opportunity to see what stallions are putting on the ground - not as fancy pretty babies, but as riding horses. It also might give you a good venue to have trainers start these horses - if there is going to be mpts and young horse riding tests in multiple areas - at KY horsepark, at Lex va - sprinkled throughout the GMO areas, then you have a collecting and access point for young horse starters to get horses in a month or two ahead of time and have several enough to make it a go. Having local breeder gmos would address the issues of consolidating sales trips for buyers. Some areas are trying this out already with regional breeding groups and I think it helps, but a coordinated effort to establish and support those groups through something like a gmo structure would be very helpful IMO.

6. I think everyone has good points, but we all have to factor in our own individual experiences. I breed in a small way, but have been a rider a long time, worked on a lot of events and dressage shows, pony clubs, gmos, etc. I am constantly scratching my head at why it doesn't suprise me that riders here in the states are not out watching breed shows and are not buying babies. I have LOTS of riding friends and ALMOST NONE of them have ever bought or would ever consider buying babies. And many of my acquaintances are the more unusal farmowner types - not boarder types. Most riders buying $$ horses are boarders though We just don't have the foal grower type purchasers they have in Europe and if we target our sales efforts to the kinds of buyer they have in Europe, it won't work. Riders here are gonna board, they don't want to board babies and they do want to buy STARTED horses. As breeders, we have to be aware of that. WE have to target that - and when we have unstarted 3 yos that become unstarted 4yos etc. - we aren't getting the job done. BUt it is so daggone expensive to get them started if youcan't do it yourself. Again, I would wonder if regional GMOs couldn't help with this. Trainers would have a group of breeders to work with and through.

Just my 2 cents, going to see if I can't think of answers to the rest of NY Breeders excellent questions and kicking myself that I don't know this.

mbp

Jun. 27, 2003, 10:16 AM

Daggone it - I blanked on Judgment until I saw MEghan's post and I was just discussing him last week too.

kick kick kick

Tiki

Jun. 27, 2003, 10:58 AM

I, as a small breeder, have decided that from now on I am going to pay the fee required for lifetime registration with USDF and get a Horse ID number from USAEQ (the lifetime cost for USAEQ is kind of expensive for me to put on all my horses, but the ID number will still go with them). I started with my 3yo who is now just starting under saddle and now I'm registering all my foals myself, as the breeder.

As far as starting young horses - It costs me $850-$1000 per month to get a youngster started, and once he/she is started, they have to be kept in training at $1000 per month or no one wants to look at them. Why isn't he in work?, they say. What's wrong with him? It is very difficult to find anyone to start young horses. I have 1 person I can use at $850 and what a job it is trying to get a slot in his barn because he's one of a very scarce breed. He is a licensed bereiter and is wonderful with youngsters. He's also 3 hours away from me! No one wants to start young horses and those who do are minimally affordable.

The North American Federation is trying to help by offering the 5 and 6 year old Young Horse Championships with prize money - to debut at DAD this year. It's not a whopping amount of prize money, but it is hoped that this will be successful and be an incentive for more trainers to take on young horses and perhaps split the cost with the breeders because of the prize money involved.

Now, the breeder has to bear the full cost of breeding, foaling, raising and starting the young horse, and usually also of keeping it in training until it is sold. It's an extreme financial burden, but I LOVE raising foals and teaching them to be good citizens. I love my broodmares and fully enjoy researching bloodlines, nicks, matches, etc. and waiting (very impatiently) for the foals to arrive and see how well I did. I've had lots of Premium foals. My Premium fillies are now giving me Premium foals. I'm having a devil of a time selling them because no one knows who I am, but at the inspections I always get lots of compliments on how pretty they are and how well behaved they are.

George Morris has been raving for a while about how we no longer have any 'horsemen' in this country. Well, the sport horse breeders in this country are all old fashioned horsemen.

I think it's a d*mn shame that we have only 1 American bred, American foaled horse this year on the short list for the FEI Young Horse Championships!!!!! We DO have wonderful foals and young horses in this country. Many of the people who buy our foals raise them for their own use. We don't have the trainers with the skill to get them to the level required for the Young Horse Championships. What on earth does it mean to have an American send a European bred, European foaled, European trained horse to the FEI Young Horse Championships??? To me, it means that we have enough money to buy one and compete it under 'our' name. Ha! What a shame. I think the new rule, that a horse has to be foaled in the country it represents and owned by a citizen of that country is a good first step, but I can't see how buying a foal in-utero and merely foaling it here should qualify it. It should be bred here too. We now have a wonderful cadre of American stallions and we have some wonderful mares. We DON'T have the young horse trainers to get the wonderful foals qualified. And the few we have are barely affordable and/or accessible. What a shame.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

CM Frank

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ...the system of multiple registries that we adopted in this country when we began to pursue warmblood breeding is very counterproductive to enabling the breeders to really make progress. Instead of having coordinated regional breeding efforts, you get a lot of fragmentation...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The one major area USAE CAN help is in the fragmentation department. The main reason I took this assignment is because this is the ONE organization in the US that receives all results, and records all competition horses--which gives us the opportunity to create a very comprehensive database through cooperation with the breed registries.

meghan1963

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:03 AM

what a gaff I made to be so narrowminded to only think about the jumpers at Aachen! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Idocus on the dressage team is certainly a credit to US breeder's! He has quite an International record. He is 4th in the world for Dressage horses in the WBFSH rankings.

Thanks for the hint NY Breeder!

Meghan

ise@ssl

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:13 AM

The comment about the European trainers wanting to find horses for their clients gave me pause and you know it's so true. I'm sure they have their connections and know the lines, etc. but perhaps the reality of "commissions" and where they are paid weighs in a little in this regard.

Here in the US - when we pay a commission or referral fee to anyone for our horse sales we must send them a 1099 and they are supposed to claim the amount as income. If a trainer gets the commission in Europe I'm not sure what their system is for sending tax form. And who knows if the income is claimed here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jun. 27, 2003 at 03:22 PM.]

MsHunter

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:30 AM

I am not sure about agreeing on the young horses getting started problem or not. We get ours started, take them to their first u/s shows get them jumping etc for people, but it isn't inexpensive. I think I am reasonably priced at $900 training board or $550 full board, I can't see how anyone can do it for much less. Here is the thing though, why can't people spend the money for 90 days of training and then take the horse on? I think when you breed you have to be in it for the long haul in the case of not selling them before they become 3/4.

I personally am not interested in papers with a breed group nor inspections (almost got interested) but I am one of those that is most involved with making up and breeding nice hunters. We all can't be good at all things.

The post that hit home is the one that mentioned people not buying babies. Not only that, but they want broke, going, showing AND WINNING now!

A few years back I could sell one just started u/s, then it was started u/s jumping a few jumps, NOW it is has it shown yet?

Well, so the childrens pony no one wanted 3 months ago at $18,000 as it was too green, is now getting reserve championships and it $35,000. Seems to me it was more a deal
3 months ago when it was "ready to win".

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Kinsella

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:42 AM

But wasn't Idocus actually bred in The Netherlands?

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

ise@ssl

Jun. 27, 2003, 11:50 AM

MsHunter - don't forget those "changes". They all want a horse that HAS his/her changes - regardless of age or experience!!

You are right about picking the niche you wish to fill but the overhead doesn't seem to vary by discipline. And for those of us in the NE - the weather (and last year's horrible winter) is a huge factor in keeping young horses going. An indoor facility becomes necessary at some point or another.

meghan1963

Jun. 27, 2003, 12:51 PM

Kinsella - you are correct. Idocus's dam was in Holland and owned by an American breeder. The mare was bred in Holland and foaled Idocus in Holland. Chris then had the colt sent to the USA were he was presented and Approved by the NA/WPN once he was old enough. He bred a lot of mares in the USA and was very successful in sport here before being eported to the Netherlands. He is still US owned but he is ridden by a dutch girl now.

Hexel

Jun. 27, 2003, 07:45 PM

I only hope we do not go the way of the Quarter Horses and only breed and show halter (in hand). I was surprised many, if not most of these halter horses are never backed and ridden.

In breeding for in hand line/ performance there will be times it works and other times it does not. There are so many factors to make a performance career happen. Many of these factors are out of the original breeders hands.Look at how many Tb. horses are produced for the racing industry and how many are stakes winners or vie for the Triple Crown. Many never make it to the track.
So, to look at in hand horses. The comparetivly (?sp.) few numbers of them there are and expect them all to make performance horses is not realistic. Breeding classes are a sort of guide.
In my mind they are to create an example of the ideal type and movement for their chosen discipline. But so many factors other then type, make a performance horse. It takes heart,resources,good management,and lots of luck to pull it all together.

Laurie@CBF

Jun. 28, 2003, 03:38 AM

What makes an Olympic Horse? It is more than just starting with a "well bred-talented" horse. Good training (a good trainer), good riding, a knowledgeable, patient owner, and the FINANCIAL backing to show this horse all the way up the levels is a start.

I can't understand why Denny expects the breeders to carry the full weight of responsibility to get our talented horses to the top. Both Idocus and Judgement have breeders that have the knowledge to chose good trainers/riders and the financial resources to get their horses to the top. Many breeders do not have these resources.

If Denny's frame of reference is backyard breeders maybe I could understand. Unforutunately the articles encompass US SportHorse Breeders in general. There is a whole other big world out there beyond breeding TB that can only be registered PHR.

I grew up in Pony Club - so have great respect for Denny's opinions on Eventing and what makes a great event horse. There are two other Equine Olympic disciplines that the US breeders are striving to produce top horses for. The US WB breeders with a focus on Jumping and Dressage are the antithesis of what Denny depicts in his articles. Many are very knowledgeable with respect to pedigree, conformation, movement, rideability etc. The newbies are interested in learning as much as they can. These BB's are a great resource where people can share knowledge. The US WB registries (ie AHS, AHHA, SWANA, NAWPN etc) go to great lengths every year to educate their breeders (at the inspections and at their annual meetings).

Before you write another article trashing US breeders Denny - I'd like to see you at a few WB breed inspections (Hilltop, Los ALamos, Rollingstone Farm, Iron Spring Farm), and a few shows (like DAD). You will meet a lot of knowledgeable , committed breeders - and I am sure that you will be surprised with the quality of their stock. Heck even if you went to some of the HB breeding shows this year - you would be impressed with the quality of horses that are out there.

The problem of US bred horses being competitive (or not) at the Olympic level has a lot more to do with the loss of horsemanship and trainers (not) wanting to ride young horses than the quality of what is being produced. You have no idea what harm you have done to us in your public forum - it pretty much tells buyers to go to Europe - as US breeders "don't know what they are doing" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

ise@ssl

Jun. 28, 2003, 04:07 AM

Thanks Laurie. As you know first hand from attending most of the 8 ISR/OLDNA inspections I've hosted over the years - the quality of horses bred, mares presented and approved, and knowledge on the part of the breeders has taken giant leaps forward.

We are told over and over again by our Inspectors and those from other WB registries (mostly Germans) that the quality of the foals produced in the US is on par with Europe.

We also know as hosts and breeders that what is EXTREMELY exciting is that the fillies bred in the US are now being presented as mares and the quality is excellent. It's my personal belief and that of most breeders that a successfuly breeding program rests on the quality of the mares. Europe has known this for decades and now we are able to produce top mares here and not rely on imports. Am I against importing - NO. Improving the stock is only beneficial to everyone - but what Denny doesn't realize is that the US breeders of sporthorses KNOW that producing Olympic horses requires that we have the stock here and can build on it. And we have.

We also know which lines are not only producing good performance horses, stallion candidates but more importantly which lines are producing really good mares. Out of both WB and TB mares.

The network of Sporthorse breeders around the country is extremely active and perhaps Mr. Emerson should, as was suggested - come to some inspections - I'm sure there are many in New England - or come to some of our farms.

Like Europe - where many of the top horses are bred on small farms - there are hundreds of small U.S. breeders who year after year produce high quality foals.

But unlike Europe - we don't have that next layer of facilities as the Europeans do. The weanlings or older usually move on to other large facilities and just specialize in the training of the young horse. Visited several when I was there. What do they have?? A team of trainers who oversee a complete training program. A very very well trained group of Bereiters who can ride just about any horse put in front of them on the flat and over fences. Not young riders who just want to compete THEIR horse - usually a horse that they have picked and one that already has training. The program here produces young riders who, for the most part, have very little experience working with a variety of horses, of all ages, sizes, ability and training. Yes there are exceptions - but they are usually working for FEI Dressage Riders or top Jumper riders.

Denny we ARE breeding the horses with Olympic potential but as was stated before on this thread - you cannot expect the breeders to shoulder the training process. Our margins financially are so slim now that with the recent economic downturn we all know many small, medium & some large breeders that have "packed it in" as the flood of horses from Europe keeps on coming. It would be great if you'd do some P.R. for our side of the pond and not for the E.U. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Sporthorse South

Jun. 28, 2003, 05:49 AM

Many excellent comments in this thread. I especially love this one from Ilona -

"As far as the Jumpers - well in Europe all of those horses have tremendous foundations in flatwork - here the focus isn't on flat work anymore. Most young kids ride hunters with their butts in the air the whole time - no flat work, no grids, no gymnastics - they just want ribbons!! Most can't canter seated on the saddle. They have spurs on by the time they are 7 and never ride without using the crop. Leg?? what leg?"

You can sure say that again! Sadly, the same thing is happening in dressage - too many young kids who can't even get their MADE 2nd or 3rd level horse on the bit but whose parents are rushing out to buy $50,000 PSG warmbloods in the belief that the kid will suddenly start winning in a double bridle in no time at all. There is no work ethic on the part of the kids, and no discipline from their parents. The parents want the kid bringing home blue ribbons from every show with scores over 65% (at 4th level or above) but the kid has NO concept of how to use seat and leg, no matter how many lessons they have. The dressage kids have become just like hunter kids - they want to sit up there on a fancy horse and just let the horse carry them around doing everything automatically. I really wish ALL kids had to do a few years in pony club before being allowed to show at recognized shows - might help a lot of them learn what it means to be a real horsewoman).

Another comment - I do agree with Denny somewhat about breeders not having enough knowledge about bloodlines. I work at many breed shows in my area, attend many inspections for different registries (organize my area's very large GOV inspection every year, also worked at 3 other inspections last year), and I talk to a lot of breeders who do not know much about bloodlines, sometimes because the info hasn't been available to them, other times because they just don't care or understand the importance of such knowledge. The really serious ones order books and videos (many from Germany) that contain in-depth info, or travel to Europe periodically, but many others aren't into pedigrees at all, yet they continue to breed. You wouldn't believe how many breeders I talk to who don't know who Rubinstein is, or Donnerhall, or Weltmeyer, or Furioso II, or Cor de la Bryere, etc. All they know about, or care about, are the local stallions they see at the shows. It's a bit sad, to say the least, and until the MAJORITY of our breeders get better with this stuff, we are going to lag behind the Europeans. Case in point - on a recent trip to Germany, I visited with a beginning breeder with only 2 mares. He is WAY out of his registry's main breeding area, but makes the effort to stay on top of things, including numerous trips to his registry's headquarters several times a year. He could quote 5 generations of his mares' pedigrees without batting an eye, including performance and progeny statistics, also knew the same about the stallions the mares were bred to. His willingness to study and learn paid off handsomely for him when his very first foal earned stallion candidate status and was selected for an Elite foal auction. Now I'm not saying that we don't have those kinds of breeders here in North America (stallion owners like Hilltop, GW Ranch, etc., also many mare owners like Judy Yancey, Ilona, Mary Pawlak of Foxpaw Farm, Mary Lou Winn of Home Again Farm, etc.), but we don't have nearly enough of them. Wouldn't it be nice if ALL our breeders had the kind of in-depth knowledge and understanding about bloodlines that my German breeder friend has?

I also agree with the comments about the problems in getting young horses started. There are only a handful of folks in my area who are willing to take on this task, and more are dropping out every year. Some have quoted the risk factor, some the liability factor, some say they can't make any money at it, some get tired of the owners trying to get involved and dictate how they want things done. It's a tough situation and one of the reasons I'm leaving my youngsters in Germany for the time being. There are foal raisers, stallion rearers, and young horse trainers all over the place - some obviously better than others, but they are THERE and they are very REASONABLE (I'm keeping two in Germany for less than 1/2 of what it costs to keep them here).

And finally, yes, we are breeding SOME foals that are as nice as those in Germany, Holland, Denmark, etc. Many breeders here are on the right track, but more breeders need to put their money where their mouths are and start using better quality mares, even if they have to BUY THEM. As already mentioned, breeder seminars are a good tool to help educate breeders but we need more of them, and breeders need to be encouraged to attend. I don't know if holding them in conjunction with other major events would help - most breeders who come to shows or inspections just want to get their horses in the ring, collect their ribbons and score sheets, and then go home. It's hard to get them to stay for an educational program. One interesting thing I saw in Germany on my last trip was a YOUNG BREEDERS JUDGING SEMINAR being held during the lunch breaks at the Oldenburg Elite Mare Show. There were 30 or more youngsters (mostly teenagers) in the ring, actively evaluating the test mares. These kids are the future of Oldenburg, and they are very serious about their responsibility. This is kind of thing that we need to have here, but when you can't even get the kids here interested in RIDING well, how the heck do you get them interested in evaluating conformation and studying bloodlines? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

mbp

Jun. 28, 2003, 05:04 PM

4-H Judging teams. Kids who go and do it all the time - just not kids in our disciplines. Why in the world don't the Dressage, Eventing and Jumper disciplines have better relationships with 4-H? Pony club is fine, but it is struggling in many areas and almost nowhere does it have any infrastructure. 4-H has boatloads of infrastructure (btw - how did they get all that infrastructure?) but almost nil involvement with our Olympic equestrian sports - or driving, valuting, endurance, etc.

I will say again, the distance factor is a big issue. When you mentioned that your friend is way outside his breeding region's center - how far? 6 hours? More? We cover a lot of distance here, and when we take breeders who are geographically close but fractionalize them through 5=6 registries - I think we shoot ourselves in the foot. Participation in events gets fractionalized as well - this Hannoverian mpt, that Oldenburg handling seminar, etc. It is hard for the breeders.

A LOT of the small breeders here are not farmers and have other outside jobs. Many don't have a phalanx of help and support. When something is offered, 6, 8, 10, 12 or more hours away, they are going to have a hard time making it. Within 2 hours and the ability to commute back and forth and still "cover" the barn, and they can do it. But that is not feasible for many registries - as they do not have the regional concentrations of the breeders to make offering so many sites feasible.

I think one thing we don't factor in a lot is the difference between a typical US workday and some European areas. I know friends have told me time and again about the "shut down" factor - after 5 or 6 in the evening, and on the weekends, businesses are pretty much closed. Here, I don't know any professionals who don't work a fair number of weekends, I don't many people involved in retail who are done at 5 and don't work weekends. People are tied up a lot. I would guess my grocery shopping is done after 9 PM at least 4 times out of 5, and having a full weekend truly "off" is a pretty big deal. Couple that with needing to get barn help - not just someone who can turn a couple old geldings in and out - but someone who is ok and comfortable with handling babies and mares in foal, to "cover" for you if you take off and it gets pretty difficult and pricey. Not a whine, just trying to explain why participation may not be greater and some of the factors.

I know this may be somewhat controversial, but I really believe that some of the incorporation of trained wbs as "the mount" for our young riders is in part responsible for the decline in horsemanship and riding standards. I really feel that the tb mounts that were far more typical for these kids made for much more sensitive, better riders. I remember way way way back when, with some of the older "import" trainers, it would be common to say, "Yes, he is good with this and that --- but he doesn't know how to handle a tb" Well, we got quieter and quieter horses and the Europeans refined and blooded their wbs and heck, it depresses me but I admit that now - it is the European riders/trainers that seem to be able to handle "hot" and we (with a few exceptions) don't cut it. JMO and obviously it is a gross generalization.

Sporthorse South alludes to one of the other really interesting points. If it is just the breeders here who are out to lunch, while the trainers are fine but just desparate for nice horses, why is it that more and more breeders are leaving their stock in Europe until it is going - and even beyond?

But you know, part of it is just that we are also becoming our grousy parents. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I helped out with some judging for the local pony club as a prep b4 rally. I saw a lot of UGH. I saw a couple "nice" and of course, would ask - where did that horse come from, etc. and it would always be an older horse that had been around the block. THen I got a really really nice ride. The rider was a midteen not horribly athletic looking but very concentrated girl. I asked where she had picked up that horse also (I am woefully out of touch with pony club and trying to get more involved) Well, she bred him, raised him, trained him -- the whole thing. Her mom and dad raise cattle, she is in 4-H also, but just got the bug on eventing early on. I stayed to watch a little of the jumping to see if he would tank on that - but nope, he was really nice there too - very well rounded. So they are out there.

a 4-H type approach to our young riders and their disciplines would have a good overal influence imo. Show up with your records on feed and care - or no fair. Do well at fair - you make $$. That kind of carrot and stick. And maybe we could get some youth judging teams for sporthorses then too?

Saddlebag

Jun. 28, 2003, 10:47 PM

Oh My, Oh My, Oh My. I guess I am really going to get in trouble here, but I believe that one of the reasons that US Breeders can't produce and sell Sporthorses on an economic parity with the European market is that most American breeders cannot or do not take the young horses past the prospect to a point where the horse is not only going under saddle, but has had some competitive experience. When I read the breeders lament on the cost of paying someone to get those colts started, and into the show ring, that tells me that the breeder isn't in a position to either do it him/herself, or pay someone to get them started on the farm. And then,(here comes my next gripe) once a colt actually makes it into the show ring, the cost of showing at venues that will attract educated and, yes, affluent lookers and buyers, escalates at a quantum rate of speed. But hey, if you want to sell your horses for a price that will at least cover the costs of the whole exercise and perhaps, even show a small profit, you have to expose him to the kind of folks who can afford to buy and show a nice horse.

Now, in Europe. showing at National shows is fairly inexpensive compared to the costs of competition in the U.S. So, each year's crop of youngsters get started and begin their show careers under the tutelage of their breeder/owners. Then the good ones get sold for a big price to Europe's top trainers and owners. The others sell for a good shot too...but those ones go to America! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And what is even funnier,( to the Europeans)is that what the Americans really want is to be able to say, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Well, we just brought this one over from Europe this past spring...Isn't he elegant?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And even better is the fact that none of these buyers have even bothered to inquire about or look at a horse that was bred and started in the United States!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

So guys...I think that we American breeders have to get off our duffs, and ride these colts, and take them to a few horseshows. Then, and only then, will the American buyers bother to even look at our homebred horses, and will the American breeders have a profit motive that is based on competitive performance instead of a fantasy cloaked in the glossy pages of the Sporthorse ttrade journals. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

So while American breeders are boasting about how their baby horse <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> was awarded Premium status <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> at the American (fill in the blanks) Inspections, and wax poetic about how this creature dazzled the Judges as he walked and trotted on the triangle at the Sport Horse Breeders shows, they fail to notice that this fabulous beast is now a four year old, and isn't even broke to ride yet http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, and no trainer wants to take on a youngster that actually requires a good bit of (well) training Yet, at the same time across "The Pond", some farmer's son (who is a helluva hand by the way) is schooling and showing the three and four year olds in preparation for next year's barrage of Americans with money in their purses, who "can't find anything decent at an even remotely affordable price" here in the USA!

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 02:12 AM

Well once again bash the breeder. First of all they aren't all "colts". Second of all we handle every single young horse daily - not starting them until they are 3 1/2 or 4 usually relates TO THEIR GROWTH SITUATION. But if you believe in starting horses whose joints and bones aren't ready - well I guess that's why they have a 2 yo under saddle class in the IHF! Ridiculous.

Starting our youngsters isn't a "challenge" - all that were sold unbroken were started by their amateur owners. So don't give the "professional trainers" the pass here.
And as far as showing - California must vary from the east coast - we don't have a crowd six deep even at the undersaddle classes for young horses with buyers holding wads of cash in their hands. From our experience CA inquiries are usually through a trainer or agent - not the principal. And I could name some big name trainers who head off to Europe to buy for their clients - and as I posted above I'm always curious about the commission arrangement in these deals. We know there are horses of equal quality here. I know of someone who bought some big buck hores through a CA trainer who also gets the "gig" on the training AND SHOWING AT THOSE SHOWS YOU BRAG HAVE ALL THE BUYERS and now those horses won't even sell for 1/2 the price - so the buyer is out the purchase, the training, showing ,boarding and can't recover any of it. But of course the TRAINER is handling the sales. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and of course is going to get a big fat commission even with the horses selling for less. Nice set up for the trainer/agent.

Also, I don't agree with your comment that the young horses here are overpriced. - You must be basing that on the "glossy" magazines you mentioned. Go to the various breed web sites or LOCAL horse rags - great quality horses.
Or email me - I'll be happy to send you a list of great breeders with great horses at affordable prices.

And PLEASE remember - all of the USA isn't sunny California - we DO have winter in most parts of the U.S.A. So training young horses over the winter months DOES require an indoor WITH SIDES ON IT!! And even in an indoor it's pretty darn cold and working horses is sometimes limited by this. Oh - and then you need to clip them and then you needs HUNDREDS of dollars of blankets, turn out rugs and hopefully a place with hot water (better winterize those pipes). We are't crying we are just stating the facts of our reality. We work very hard to have affordable horses. wE also have to have barns WITH SIDES on them.

Oh, and we do CARE about where our horses go - we haven't seen that with the sellers in Europe. We have people show up all the time looking for high quality horses that are terrible riders. Have never trained a horse and do you want us to sell our best babies to them? You know what happens - they ruin the horse and then guess you gets trashed ??? The BREEDER!!

Cartier

Jun. 29, 2003, 03:07 AM

Ilona,

To take what you’re saying a bit further and expand about the “alleged” superior quality of ALL imports over our domestically bred horses, in the context of how they actually perform as athletic sport horses….

We were at a Horse Trials yesterday… hundreds of entries.. we were watching the show jumping phase… Of the entries we observed only one was a branded warmblood. The guy was an import, carrying the German Hanoverian’s brand. He was arguably a very mediocre specimen, conformation was only average at best, poor form over fences… and he did as expected based upon his physical abilities… finishing at the bottom of the heap.

What struck us was the contrast between the domestically bred horses and this import (who had to have cost someone some bucks). This particular import was not worth the price of importation… whoever purchased him could have made a hundred better purchases from American breeders…

NOW before everyone gets all up in arms protecting the great imports we have, I’ll conceded that there are many… but for the average American rider, who frankly ain’t ever going to compete at the FEI Level… American breeders offer a huge range of excellent choices (the best of whom CAN also compete at the upper levels).

lorik

Jun. 29, 2003, 03:19 AM

The fractionation of breeds here in the US does put us at a disadvantage as does the cost of training. Think about it this way. At $1200 a month for training board (something I paid for one of my horses) It's cheaper to send a child to college!! I certainly hope my daughter gets some kind of payback for that investment and I would hope the breeder would get something back on his/her investment too.

Now, a question. What impact do you think the North American Breeder's Futurity will have on this situation. Will we, in the future have more nice NA bred to send to the Championships to represent our breeders?

Cartier

Jun. 29, 2003, 03:36 AM

Lorik,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What impact do you think the North American Breeder's Futurity will have on this situation. Will we, in the future have more nice NA bred to send to the Championships to represent our breeders? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sure hope so... and I hope breeders support these programs...

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 04:10 AM

We support the Futurity as well and we will pay the fee for any horse we have bred for the owner. In fact I would support a slight increase in registration costs for my foals to have an amount set aside from that money to fund futurities all over the U.S.A. It's a showcase for young horses and it's a goal for domestic breeders and owners to work toward. If others believe in this concept CONTACT THE REGISTRY YOU WORK WITH OR THE NORTH AMERICAN FEDERATION. WE WON'T GET THESE PROGRAMS OFF THE GROUND AND GROWING IF WE DON'T SPEAK UP NOW!!

I also went back and re-read Denny's critical article (actually I read parts to a fellow long time breeder - felt her ire through the phone) and HOPE someone would pass on to Denny what we hear about trying to market our horses to Event riders ..."Forget it - they won't spend any money. They'd rather buy three cast offs from the track and try to re-train them on their own or head to England or Ireland and pick up one for cheap that's had lots of cross country work and conditioning put on them." That's what I've heard over and over again. We have a horse in training with an Advanced event rider now - our choice. Will we get a return on our money - I seriously doubt it. We do believe in cross training all young horses. We breed with some TB in all the Sporthorses and sportponies except for the Welsh purebreds. We want a horse with a good gallop as well as talent for Dressage and Jumping. We haven't found the buyers from the Event world Denny!!!

denny

Jun. 29, 2003, 06:20 AM

I`m interested at how much latent anger and frustration is out there. Do you really know many people who ARE truly experts in breeding, pedigree, conformation, and training? Like Frank Chapot who bred and produced Gem Twist, or Bruce Davidson? That`s a big part of the problem in the US, as I see it, a major disconnect between the people who can and do breed the horses, and the people who can and do ride and train them.
Until that critical piece gets put in place, I don`t think American breeders can successfully hope to compete at the upper levels with their European counterparts. THAT is why I`m skeptical. Too many of our breeders are NOT also people who can get on and ride. Name the ones who are great all-around horsemen, of the caliber of Chapot and Davidson. Name them.
Europe, as many of you have said, has lots of those great all around, total horse people. Why don`t we?

Hexel

Jun. 29, 2003, 07:11 AM

This is really getting depressing, I'm wishing I had not bred my 4 mares back.

I admire Mr Chapot however can not picture him on the back of an unbroke 2 or 3 yo being bad.

I to rode once and was a very good rider. I grew up riding the livery nag that no one else wanted to ride because it was tough. I picked this horse because it was the closest thing to owning my own. No one else would sign up to ride that one. I rode by the seat of my pants. Then I learned the finer points from a wonderful student of G.M.'s

Now I'm older, and not in a position to get busted up, nor do I have the physical and reaction time I once did. I've chosen to stay close to horses through breeding and showing in the breeding divisions.Because I no longer can ride a tough baby should I get out of horses? We have backed our babies here on the farm at great expense. I know what needs done and can direct from the ground as I' sure Mr Chapot and others like him do. He has family/students to do the riding for him at what expense? It all boils down to keeping costs within reason. We try to sell our babies young because there is no network in place in the USA to make this possible. Many breeders are strictly a breeding facility and do not teach and train. I understand this is sperated out in Europe as well. It is more to manage a stallion/collections care for the young horses then most folks realize as well as have a training facility all in one place. This is not impossible but takes resources manpower etc more so then I believe the average small breeder is capable of without government assistance.

It costs on average 3500.00 to get a baby on the ground. Here we go again, broken record. Ok another 1200.00 to 1500.00 to keep them another year. Then to send them out at 750.00 to 1000.00 a mo. for 3 to 6 mo.tack on another 3000.00 to 6000.00.. Then there is the farrier, vet, dentist have to get those wolf teeth out. Then we are expected to send them to the shows Fl. maybe at another 5000.00 to 10,000.00 for a season. So to get a young horse going with a show record the least expenseive might be around 13,000.00 and as much as 21,000.00.
I feel my estimates are conservative. When they go to the shows in the hunters there are braiding fees, groom fees, bucket fees, hand walking fees, sneezed on me had to send my shirt to the cleaners fees.

Then the reality is, not everyone you breed is going to turn out to be the winner. So the occasional exceptional one must make up for the rest. Then Murphy's law jumps in and that is the one that cuts it's leg or gets hurt in some stupid way babies are known for. Put them in bubble wrap and they will find a way.

I do not mean to sound so negative, but we are no longer hungry in this country. There are not as many young people hungry to be around a horse and willing to back and start them because it is the only way to be around them. Most of the young horse people I observe go right to the top anymore. They are provided what it takes,therefore have not experienced the hunger and can not appreciate it. I am sad for them, because to take a young horse train/mold it and have success is the ultimate way to become a truly more rounded Horseperson.

It is not just in horses, our young people are often handed everything in an effort, to make things better for them then we had it. We are making it worse for many of them. They have no sense of accomplishment and pride, appreciation,
and most of all empathy and understanding for another. When one works hard they should be rewarded with recognition. Someone else posted the only recognition breeders get, is if they pat themselves on the back and then they are perceived as braggers.

[This message was edited by Hexel on Jun. 29, 2003 at 11:25 AM.]

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 07:17 AM

Oh Denny - stop being so condescending and stop trying to create so much disconnect between various sectors of the horse world. Your perceptions are off base. Of the breeders I know MOST are also riders - very few aren't. I only stopped breaking horses because I broke my back and had other serious complications. You need to take the blinkers off and get out more. The Chapots live near where I live and I do know they breed, train & show jumpers - but they are not the only people in NJ or any other state that do. Most of the breeders I know could easily discuss bloodlines with them. Bruce has done clinics nearby - I've gone to watch. Great technocrat and rider - a bit challenging for some young horses but certainly aimed at weeding out any but the horse/rider combinations that can go Advanced Three day!

There are farms coast to coast who breed, train and compete - stop making it sound like the breeders in this country don't know the riders, etc. It's not true. But the farms that breed/train/compete don't often buy from other breeders unless they need to infuse different or new bloodlines. Most of the breeders I know sell to people who will compete them directly.

I just can't understand why you are so angry about this and feel brow beating the breeders will make for people wanting to come together and work for the common good. I don't know of anyone who wants to take the time, trouble and money to go and have someone pontificate "the culprit is ignorance". That's pretty strong vocabulary and certainly doesn't draw a circle that invites the various groups in - it does nothing more IMHO than draw the circle so small that you almost look like the only person standing inside it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sure we'd all like to produce one horse that's the caliber of Gem Twist - most professional breeders, large and small, that I know do aim for that caliber of talent. But what's more important is to avoid producing mediocre horses - horses that have little potential for any useful life undersaddle or in the breeding shed. The great breeding programs aim to have the median very high - not a pyramid with a couple on top and a huge base of losers.

Fracturing the horse world into various groups is just not the approach we need. And failing to see that we can learn from each other - whether we focus on Three Day, Dressage, Jumpers, whatever, is counterproductive to keeping this industry growing and financially healthy. We CAN produce our Olympic horses in this country - but sticking your finger in my eye or that of any of the thousands of "breeders" in the U.S.A. without having a face to face dialogue and factual statistics is nothing but a painful lack of diplomacy.

We took it on the chin for decades that we could not produce sporthorses of the quality that Europe did. Sure some people in the business have the money to keep making mistakes year after year - MOST OF US DON'T. We started with some mares - looked at the scores the foals received - saw if they could be trained and sold, culled, bought additional mares, kept high quality fillies, saw what bloodline crosses worked, sat at inspection after inspection and breed show after breed show and went to competitions and read publications to see what bloodlines were in the top horses and LEARNED FROM IT. Do we still see sub-standard horses at inspection or absolutely STUPID mistakes made in the selection process by some people - YES! But fewer and fewer as money gets tighter.

But to our credit - we now see some fabulous mares, outstanding foals and the ability to produce our own stallions and broodmares. We welcome the importation of even higher quality breeding stock from Europe and KNOW the bloodlines top side and bottom side. We GO to Europe to see how they breed great horses. The average scoring on foals goes up yearly in North America and the cut off for premiums (in the registry I use) was upped to make the award harder to achieve. We've added Mare Performance Testing (THAT'S UNDER SADDLE DENNY), and most of the WB registries have made the selection process for stallions even more selective. What was accepted 10 years ago will not pass the approval today. Ask those who have had their stallions turned down - they will tell you.

Reputable Sporthorse breeders in North America aren't using roulette wheels to pick stallions. While we all love the COTH Stallion issue - we don't judge the stallion by the "snazziness" of the Ad! We go to the STallion approvals if possible and the testings held every other year - and BEG to have breeding line information provided for performance horses. The RIDERS don't beg for this - the BREEDERS do!! We go to Sporthorse breeder seminars (or go out of pocket to host them!) Our registries have newsletters with information on bloodlines and the champions they have produced. We have star or keur awards for mares of high quality and who have produced both premium foals and PERFORMANCE HORSES. We have the same for stallions.

We may have some knowledge weakness BUT WE ARE NOT IGNORANT. Note: American Heritage Dictionary defines ignorant as "without education or knowledge" or "unaware or uninformed". The "culprit" isn't ignorance - IT'S LACK OF COHESIVENESS in our Equestrian community. We've all sat back and watched our horseworld and programs put on hold while the USET & AHSA fought it out (to the tune of millions of dollars http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) over the past few years and ended up with an agreement that was attainable when the fight started. Think what all those LEGAL FEES could have bought for us in services or expanded data bases or .......BREEDING SEMINARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It appears that now that the "Clash of the Titans" is over the spotlight is now searching the crowd and for some reason settled on the breeders. HEY!! We've been out here begging of the Horse ID system but we couldn't be heard over the din of the clash.

The various WB breeding groups came together to form the North American Federation - we've made strides to get everyone on the same page and working toward the common goal of a worldclass sporthorse breeding program. When you are quoted as saying we need "dozens of seminars all across America", well there have been breeding seminars all over America sponsored by the various registries. I hosted one that brought 85 people to Gladstone about 6 years ago. It's troublesome to give the non-breeding equestrians that read the COTH the impression that the Breeding side is wandering around in the dark and failing to improve and expand.

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 07:24 AM

Hexel - Amen.
The very fact that most farm owners have to speak Spanish now - isn't because we have waves of kids who want to work around horses and muck stalls!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

denny

Jun. 29, 2003, 08:43 AM

The fact is that we ARE fragmented, and each piece has to worry about it`s own situation. I am personally mainly interested in Tbs and Tb crosses, Arabs and Morgans, but I helped Robby Johnson HOST the Rolex seminar, not speak at it as an expert, because I didn`t feel expert enough. It`s not that I`m not "out there" either. Yesterday I rode in a 50 mile race at Pinetree in Maine, next weekend I ride 2 preliminary event horses at Stoneleigh-Burnham, and the next weekend Ifly to California to ride in the Tevis Cup. I`m 61, have had 2 broken hips, one a replacement, so I do feel pretty much that I`m putting my money where my mouth is.
But the fact is that despite 50 years of continuous competing, inc. a gold medal, I KNOW I`m still far too ignorant about lots of this huge horse world.
Lots of you here seem to be warmblood breeders. Have you ever invited to one of your seminars people of the caliber of Robert Dover, Magie Engle, Sue Blinks, Hap Hansen? And asked them if they like what they see? If they don`t, well, you know that, even if it`s painful. If they DO, ask them what has to be done to get them to support your efforts.
I promise you I`m nothing but FOR American breeding. I stood my first stallion, a Lippitt Morgan, in 1958, and lots of others since then. But I still feel what I know only scratches the surface. So if I`m being critical, it`s first and foremost about my OWN ignorance. As for yours, that`s something you`ll` have to judge and deal with for yourself!
Denny

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 09:24 AM

To my knowledge most of our FEI level riders don't look at young horses. We do have dialogues with the ones we respect and the ones we would want traing and riding our horses. We do contact people to come by and look at tapes. Your schedule appears hectic but you also must understand breeders have big time issues with trying to travel away from their farms. We have breeding season and foaling season and castrating season and training seasons. Would it be nice to be able to go to Kentucky for a seminar and then one somewhere else? Sure but not possible. That's why the warmblood groups put on sporthorse breeding seminars all over the country (and have for years). Many times they have top people from Europe who breed, train, compete attend to lecture. We get together with the Judges after breed shows to discuss strengths weaknesses. Perhaps you just didn't know all this was happening.

I'm not always sure that the riders can evaluate the youngsters either. No horrible citicism but some people can get on a horse and know what it can do or become. Many of the same people cannot look at a youngster and tell anything about it. Just like there are many people who were never on the Olympic Teams, nor gold medal winners but they can breed great horses and train both riders and horses to the top. I've gone up to many, many riders at top shows and asked the breeding on their horses - many don't know anything more than perhaps the stallion.

It's not a big deal for American riders to compete on USA bred horses. It is for other countries. I'm not sure why that is but it is. You don't see Ireland with very many Holstein jumpers now do you? It's almost a fluke that the top Dressage horse for German "Rusty" is a Latvian bred horse - though Germans are quick to point out he has German bloodlines.

As I repeatedly stated Denny - we are still in the learning curve and this business of breeding horses is the most humbling avocation anyone could consider. Thinking you know it all is a short cut to failure - but the knowledge we lack isn't ignorance unless we fail to acknowledge we can always know more and we can always do better.

Tiki

Jun. 29, 2003, 09:43 AM

Denny, Margie Engle rides and shows a couple of Hilltop Farm's young jumpers and has been very successful with them. My girlfriend has 2 colts by VIP our of a Zeus mare who will be phenomenal jumpers when mature. Mary Alice Malone has several of her young jumpers out with International Caliber riders. ISR/OLNA has had some of the top breeders/trainers/ riders/judges come over here to give seminars AND TELL US WE'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING. The problem is that most of the smaller and medium breeders MAY be able to get the youngsters started, but unless you have very deep pockets, stuffed with lots of cash, and some kind of a reputation and connections, can't get someone like Margie to look at your young stock. I, personally, don't have $2000 a month free to find a big name rider/trainer to get my horses out there. In Europe it costs about $350 - $500 per month to get these youngsters out there. WE ARE MISSING THE MIDDLE LAYER IN THIS COUNTRY. I would be seriously surprised if some of the big name riders you mentioned actually start their young stock themselves. I would guess that they have working students start them UNDER THEIR SUPERVISION. Most of these people, justifiable, don't want to take a chance on broken bones and losing competition time starting a silly youngster. Again, this is the layer that is missing - getting thy youngsters started and to a point that they DO get noticed by Margie, Robert, Sue, Michael, Debbie, et al. Actually, most of them don't OWN horses anyway, they RIDE them for sponsors who buy them on their recommendation. They want made horses who can win. We have a missing layer in training and showing here that you don't see in Europe.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

denny

Jun. 29, 2003, 09:51 AM

Tiki, it`s the same in eventing. I`ve had foals by our stallions that I thought could have been "big time", but they often vanish into the hands of people who either don`t compete, or who do so at the lower levels. I`m sure the horses are glad, but it doesn`t help the stallion!
Have there been majoe dialogues about what can be done about this "missing layer" of hungry, young professionals? If we could fix THAT, we`d all be much better off.

Hexel

Jun. 29, 2003, 10:09 AM

Stop feeding them so well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

NYbreeder

Jun. 29, 2003, 10:25 AM

Denny-- You asked whether we have ever "invited people of the caliber of Robert Dover etc. etc" to one of our seminars. How about Anne Gribbons, you fellow columnist Anne Gribbons? What if one of the major registries had Anne Gribbons give a seminar at its annual meeting, to give her impressions as a rider/judge of how our breeding program is progressing? Is that what you're talking about? Just happened, this past March, in Florida. What irritates me is that we're way ahead of you, and you don't know it (as Ilona suggested.) I wouldn't expect someone out of the breeding community to know that Anne spoke, but you're the one criticising, you're the one who is head of the breeding committee for the USAE charged with designing programs to help breeders. You sound as if your seminar was the first one ever given. You should take the time to find out where we are before getting on your high horse and telling us where we should go. Go to an annual meeting or two; try a keuring (inspection); meet the judges (both from here and abroad) at the inspections, and ask, don't tell; try a few registry websites; find out what is going on. We are not ignorant (did you know that this very week there are three American judges-- and all of these people are breeders, not just judges-- in a major European breeding country judging for a European studbook European foals and mares? These are not stupid breeders.) Education? You should try it.

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 29, 2003, 11:45 AM

I don't ride anymore, but have spent LOTS of time STUDYING to be a breeder. I have been to MANY Inspections, Breed Shows, 100 Day Tests, etc. I have sat there privately critiqueing the horses until I can score them and put them in order almost perfectly every time. I do KNOW what I am producing. I have been in the "call back" at Devon, in 2nd place (out of 42), and watched a final colt go, and said to my helpers, "oops, there goes 2nd" (we ended up 3rd). That colt was 2nd, but I felt that he should have been 1st. The next year, he won the East Coast Breeders Championship. I have "scored classes from the bleachers" along with J Ashton Moore, and shocked my friends when the final scores were posted because my scores were within 1 or 2 tenths of a point. At the 100 day test in 1993, I chose Idocus as I loved him as a Dressage horse and felt he would be wonderful sire material. He scored highest as a jumper. I booked my mare to him that year. He is now in Holland with a strong chance at the Olympics in Dressage, and has been an incredibly consistant producer. When I have chosen a stallion, in every case, if they have gone to Devon, they have won the stallion class AFTER I bred to them.

I would not breed if I couldn't produce quality foals that in MOST cases (not just the occasional one) would be able to be highly competitive in FEI levels of sport IF they were in the right hands, but top competitors are not coming to my barn to buy foals. We did have Heidi EricKson notice a foal in a field in Florida, and asked about his breeding (He is by Nevada). She said he was lovely and had outstanding gaits. Unfortunately she was there looking at an older horse for a client. Although I have not had the opportunity to "show off" my youngsters to a big name rider, I do show them at Devon, so I can see how they score against those "fancy imports". My foals do VERY well, beating them in lots of cases.

In my case, I spend so much time in the breeding aspect of the youngsters, and stallions, in addition to trying to make a living (boarding horses), that there is no time left for the "continuing education" of the older guys, and I find that if not sold as foals, they are very difficult to sell for a profit.

I DO have an EXCELLENT trainer that will put "60 days" on the 3 year olds. At that time, they will do a fantastic Training Level Dressage Test, and jump around a little course of 18" to 2' jumps in excellent form, and then I can usually sell them at cost. To sell them for "money", I would have to keep them, get them into the bigger shows, and I just don't have the funds to invest in that direction.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Laurie@CBF

Jun. 29, 2003, 12:26 PM

Denny's comments are very frustrating. He has a "voice" in a large public forum at the COTH - probably one of the largest equine mags in circulation. I am sure that his comments about event horses are valid- but "hold on a minute" if the WB sporthorses are getting "lumped" into that group. I said this before - let's see him at some farms, inspections, competitions, DAD, or an event like the 100 day test.

The last 100 day test I went to I saw Christina Traurig and Todd Minikus as the guest riders for the stallion testing. It was absolutely amazing seeing these talented riders evaluating the young stallions. We ARE asking the top riders their opinions - Denny is just not aware of it.

Another very valuable seminar I went to was by Mikhail Holmstrom (sp?). He is a Swedish researcher who did computer analysis on the conformation and movement "characteristics" of the top performing GP dressage horses competing in Europe. He came up with some fascinating information( ie - the top horses were rarely "10" movers - those horse didn't stay sound enough to make it all the way. Another finding was that a straighter hock angle than average was seen more often - again related to staying sound enough to do the work). This was six or seven years ago http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I'll give Denny a personal invite to my farm . Come see what we are doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

arnika

Jun. 29, 2003, 12:39 PM

Hexel, I have to agree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CM Frank

Jun. 29, 2003, 12:53 PM

I think we're all missing the point of this topic. Denny initially asked me to post on behalf of the USAE Breeders Committee in order to find out what USAE could do to help and encourage American breeding. Let's put all the emotion aside and build something constructive.

Allyn M

Jun. 29, 2003, 01:20 PM

It has been so long since I have posted on this board that I have forgotten how ....... however this thread has inspired me as it truly strikes close to my heart.
After foxhunting for 20 years and a major accident in which I ended up under the horse I had to give up the only type of riding I knew ,but did not want to give up horses entirely so decided to breed on a small scale. As TBs were my first love and I had purchased most of my mounts at the track I bred TBs for sport. Here in the midwest where you can buy track rejects for killer prices we were putting care ,feeding,training and lots of attention to horses that were never sold as foals and went on to age 3 and 4 in the aforementioned market without a buyer. The TB sporthorse market was really spoiled by cheap track horses and the fact that this was so`plus the fact that no one saved nor promoted the TB bloodlines that were winning in the 70's and 80's caused the Europeans to corner that market.We also tried to combine Quarter horse bloodlines with TB without any financial success.After meeting BIG BEN at the 1987 pan Am games in our state I made up my mind that I was going to have to work in that direction so I spent a year studying bloodlines of the horses that were producing the winning horses in show jumping.( The WBFSH keeps very good records on this ) Since we were getting on in years we felt we should start with the best bloodlines we could afford and with the horses that were producing World Cup and Olympic winners.We have worked with show jumping bloodlines ,because after talking to enough breeders in Europe we decided that jumpers can and should do dressage but not all dressage bloodlines can do jumping. If you add TB bloodlines to the mix you tend to introduce stamina for eventing horses. That is what we do . We try to appeal to as broad a market as we can.
My humble opinions on breeding in the states from my short tenm involvement reflect what some of you have said here: We are a culture now that wants results immediately and because so many young riders are riding schoolmasters in whatever discipline they never really learn to work at learning how to ride so we are producing very few horsemen who are willing to spend the time that it takes to train a young horse.Most of my clients are now single women with good trainers who eventually want to go A/A jumper ao A/O jumper.They seem to be willing to take this time after work to become a good rider. Maybe it is the parents who want the ribbons and not the children. I don't know the answer , but all of the great horses in the world are not going to make you a world class rider if you do not have the work ethic to become one.That to me is problem #1
Problem # 2 is that if you go to the horse shows and pick out horses you are interested in and ask the trainers / riders/ owners ( Whoever )how this horse you admire is bred ( I once did this at the Washington International).....They won't know. If I am at a European horse show or talking to a European rider,they will know how the horse is bred and who he is related to on the circuit and maybe the breeder.So I must conclude that most people riding these horses think breeding doesn't matter and I have actually been told that several times.
Problem number # 3 . Hard to stimululate interest when we don't have adequate records keeping.I am hoping that the good work that Cheryll and Denny are doing will help to get riders/trainers/owners interested in bloodlines. Some of the problems that we are faced with is the the H/J shows do not
have pedigree based software so what comes up is frequently the name of the registry which as most of you know doesn't mean squat because the European registries are location based rather than bloodline based.If you go to some horse shows in Europe they have an electronic sign at the end of the arena that gives the name of the rider ,the owner,the breeding ( sire X dams sire ) and the breeder.Can this ever happen here? Our race horse industry in this country is unmatched anywhere in the world and if you look at any racing card you will find jockey,Owner,Trainer,sire/dam and breeder.Will we ever get that far?
And last ,but certainly not least we need to all get on the same team. In my lifetime I have been through volunteer organization squabbles ; fox hunting squabbles and church squabbles and they only serve to drive people away.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarm.net (http://www.bannockburnfarm.net)

denny

Jun. 29, 2003, 02:02 PM

No, Cheryll, let these breeders vent. They know that something isn`t working because they aren`t selling their top prospects to the top US riders. What they have to figure out is why not.
I am right up front when I admit that I don`t have all the answers, and I sign the stuff I say with my own name. And I`m out there in the actual arena, year after year, sometimes winning, more often losing, but I`m not shirking the fray, and if these people want to think they are so well educated, then let them do the same. Take your horses out there where it`s tough and scarey, and see what you`ve got. Don`t hide behind some assumed name and take shots at people. That`s the chicken way, and I have zero respect for that. Take your anger and frustration and join some committees, be on some boards, put yourselves in the line of fire, do something for the greater community, SIGN YOUR OWN NAME when you tell me I don`t know much about warmblood breeding. I`ll agree with you that I don`t, and I`ll have much more respect for you in addition.
Anyone who doesn`t think they need more education is either the reincarnation of Albert Einstein or an arrogant person.
iF YOU FEEL OFFENDED that I`ve said we all need more education, then you tell me, using YOUR OWN NAME what you have done for the American horse community that is so striking.Either let`s hear it outright, or go learn how to create and market a product that American riders want,because only that will prove that you have all the answers.
Denny Emerson

Cartier

Jun. 29, 2003, 02:33 PM

Denny Emerson,

You seem to be getting a tad hot under the collar, which is an understandable reaction when someone steps on your toes… please extend some measure of empathy to breeders here who felt you’ve stepped on their toes.

You favor more education... if you read what others have written, most all are in agreement with you.

In your post above you mentioned “the disconnect between breeders and riders,” which does in fact exist, but I’m not convinced that the conclusions you’ve drawn are accurate. I don’t accept that only a superior rider can produce a superior horse and that in Europe ALL good breeders are riders of the quality of Chapot or Davidson. Have you seen some of those breeders in Germany? The vision of them jumping up on their horses and doing a lap around the arena is nothing short of amusing.

Moreover, our domestic breeders may be producing what is marketable. The fact that breeders DON’T produce a lot of upper level horses doesn’t necessarily mean they CAN’T. Breeders may simply choose to focus their efforts on what they can sell.. and many simply lack the resources to profitably market the upper level horses.

Take your example of Bruce Davidson, who along with Mary Hazard, seems to concentrate on the Mystic line. These Mystic line horses can be a challenge, even for upper level riders. It takes someone of the caliber of Bruce to successfully compete (or market) these horses. And, to be fair, the Mystic line has it’s faults as well as virtues... and not all Mystic line horses embody the excellence you suggest.

I wonder how many potentially great domestically bred performance horses are wasting away in someone’s pasture because, though the breeder knew how to produce the horse, he/she couldn’t’ make the connection to the rider and sponsor who could get the most out of the horse.

Oh, and, the breeders on this thread are not hiding behind anything… most of us know each other by name.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Jul. 02, 2003 at 06:35 AM.]

Ashemont

Jun. 29, 2003, 02:55 PM

Ok Denny, here goes. I live near you in Southern Pines... I'm over near Five Points... and you actually had wonderful things to say about one of my homebred WB geldings when a friend rode him in a weekend clinic with you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We've been in the breeding business for almost 20 years. We started when we were in Germany with a States Premium mare and a Verbands Premium mare. We imported both of these mares in foal. The Verbands mare lost hers on the way over but the States Premium mare produced Pikör. You may be familiar with him since Jim Koford rode him at FEI. We knew nothing about dressage and had no intention of keeping a stallion... but the inspectors told us they wanted to see this colt and felt he was a stallion prospect.

OK, we learned. But we learned slowly and it's a good thing we did because otherwise we would've quit and never made it to FEI. We just didn't know that 'nobodies' didn't take a stallion all the way to the top. We were very fortunate to find a former Young Rider eventer who wanted to switch to dressage. With a bit of luck and lots of hard work and perserverance we managed to get Pikör fully licensed and approved as a breeding stallion through performance. The talented rider who brought him along was Heather Morton. She was OUR middle layer.

We tested the foals we were producing at Keurings, winning a high percentage of Premium awards. We showed them in-hand at Raleigh. Won the Breeders Group SIX years in a row until we thought it was time to give someone else a chance. Also, by then we were campaigning Pikör at the FEI level and we couldn't afford to do both.

As you may be aware Pikör died tragically 4 years ago. But we had a stallion prospect son out of his sister by Weltstern - Welt Marke. It was another tough road beset by injuries. Marker was extremely energetic (I swear he has ADHD!) and managed to always hurt himself at a critical time. Consequently at 5 he had not been shown and was barely doing Training Level. But the Fates again smiled on us and we found another 'middle layer' - a Bronze Medal rider who had been a student of Jules Anderson named Pamela Hammer. Pam started riding Marker in November and the following spring was showing and winning at 3rd Level! We had to bring him home for breeding and sent him back to her late last year. He is now schooling all GP movements and pinning in all of his classes at 4th Level. 100% of his babies, with 3 foal crops on the ground, have received Premium awards.

I think we know a little bit about breeding. We are producing wonderful athletes with great minds who can really move. But it's next to impossible to get people to come and see them without spending major $$$$ on advertising... and so we sell them at far less than they should bring to amateur riders who will love them.

I invite you to come to our farm and see our youngsters. Better yet, come to our RPSI Keuring on 9/11/03. I'd love a chance to talk to you about what we, as breeders, need. Are you even aware that a group of NC WB breeders has formed to address our marketing concerns? Check out our ad in the July 4 Chronicle. We're trying but it's a long hard road. I for one think the USA Equestrian should require all USET athletes to compete on USA-bred horses. Now THAT's something that would really help. Phase it in so that they would have time to bring along an American-bred... but DO it!

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

ise@ssl

Jun. 29, 2003, 05:18 PM

You know Denny it's a two way street. I paid good money to have my 8 yo Oldenburg/TB ridden in your Event Camp at the NJ Horse Park because I respected that your knowledge was what we needed to get this boy ready for competition. It was worth it. When I read your tirade in the COTH I felt like I'd been slapped.

Can't say that anyone doesn't respect those that have earned medals or ribbons of any color at major competitions - but as stated above what you seemed to fail to realize is the number of people who read the COTH who are NOT as informed as those of us who've stood up to challenge your statements. I'd bet good money that all over the country someone will decide to go to Europe rather than buy in the U.S.A. with the decision being "Well Denny Emerson said the breeders here don't know anything and are breeding mediocre horses." That's where your caution with respect to how you present a concept is paramount.

O.K. - now you push back and say - get out there and put your horses on the line, get involved, serve on some boards. Well hey - I could list the amount of time I've put in to volunteer at horse shows local to national - why bore people - most people posting have probably done the same. I've hosted 8 ISR/OLDNA inspections at my farm (at my expense & will do so again & again), I hosted a Breeding Seminar at USET put on by the ISR/OLDNA (at my expense), I've sponsored TWO Sporthorse Breed Shows here in NJ (at my expense), I've served on the ISR/OLDNA advisory board (can't remember how many years now) and last but not least - stepped forward with a fellow WB breeder to host the Cocktail Party for the Competitors at the Jersey Fresh CCI** (at our expense) because he and I believe in keeping THREE DAY EVENTING GOING IN THE U.S.

All the horses I've bred and sold compete - successfully. One is again the 4th level champion in Bermuda - also a great jumper. Others are coming along. Should I be chasing after top riders at shows with videos and color flyers - I think not. But I do spend countless time as do all breeders supporting the various equestrian disciplines and networking 24/7 to get the word out about our horses. And I can't have the only spouse who BEGS please just one weekend without horse business.

I'm an ex-financial analyst and statistics are my game. Given the # of horses that finally make it to the top with riders that we would want to see riding them - well it's not statistically a large number. You've mentioned talking to some riders about what they are looking for - well do you think for one minute that breeders from coast to coast don't know that there are some we would NEVER want to see our horses trailer off down the lane with. Big bucks or no bucks. What we do want to see is a good (hopefully) great rider on the backs of every horse we put on the ground. A successful competition career and an owner that calls to say "I just called to tell you that I LOVE RIDING MY HORSE" as I have heard many times and I know others posting here have heard as well.

Are there idiot breeders? You Bet. Idiot owners, trainers, agents, ..... We won't even sell to agents because we see the churn and burn process that often goes with that route. What we do work to provide are sound, solid, equine athletes with documented parentage and three superior gaits, conformation that will get them there and back and not only a great mind but more important a great heart.

CFrank made the following post:
"I think we're all missing the point of this topic. Denny initially asked me to post on behalf of the USAE Breeders Committee in order to find out what USAE could do to help and encourage American breeding. Let's put all the emotion aside and build something constructive"

I haven't seen any comments here that aren't aimed at building something constructive. But don't tell us to leave out emotion when the COTH gives Mr. Emerson one ENTIRE PAGE (a print megaphone) to tell the whole country that the US breeders are ignorant and producing mediocre horses. Will we get a printed rebuttal that will carry the same weight - NO. Because now we've been reduced to this nameless, aimless group of idiots who don't know our elbow from our keyhole.

FYI - Mr. Emerson we had our 8 yo twice for jumping lessons with a fellow Event Rider of yours (rode on the Team) and when I told him the bloodlines of my Old/TB boy - namely FURIOSO II- he responded "Oh we event riders don't know anything about warmblood bloodlines - just TB's!". Well hey! I have to know alot about TB & WB bloodlines and so do all the reputable breeders from coast to coast.

If the USAE is really interested in getting the data base of information this country needs to analyze breeding success (Europe's had it for decades - and we invented the computer - go figure)...then do some research on exactly how active & informed the sporthorse breeders are in this country. We pay membership fees as well you know! And as I posted above I give a 5% rebate on the purchase price for any horse I sell now to reimburse the owners for entry fees at recognized shows! I put my money where...well you know the rest.

I hope tons of people read this thread - I hope they start to get the truth about the great horses we are breeding. Sadly many top riders are looking for a that magic combination - " A great made horse and an owner with very deep pockets!". By the time we've been in this breeding business and produced great horses...well we don't even have pants left on better yet pockets.......... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh forgot to add:
Ilona S. English
Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
"Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"
and here's my toll free #800 549 2813!
New Jersey - State Animal - THE HORSE!

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jun. 29, 2003 at 09:28 PM.]

Tiki

Jun. 29, 2003, 05:23 PM

Denny, I have studied pedigrees and how they work in the different disciplines. I have studied how the various stallions I like cross on TB mares. All my TB mares are the old 'chef' bloodlines. Those mares have given me Premium foals. Those Premium foals have now given me 2nd generation Premium foals.

I have bought books, bought CSs from WBFHS, gone to every breeding seminar within reasonable (and maybe a little farther than reasonable) distance. I support all the breeding seminars I can by going to them. We have had experts from Sweden and Germany come. We have had German judges come. We had an extensive discussion at our last ISR/OLNA meeting about what to do about the missing middle layer.

The Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries has come up with a purse, thanks to the generosity of some of the members, for a 5 and 6 year old young horse championship to be held this year at Dressage at Devon. The purpose, after much brain storming, is to try to get some money into young horses in order to try to attract young horse trainers. They are starting with 5 and 6 year olds because they are 'more rideable' and it's a good level to start a championship. Once this is well off the ground they will drop down in age and perhaps try 4 year olds. We are hoping that by putting some money into prizes, we will (hopefully) spark some interest in young horse trainers that we can approach, or (siiigggghhhh) maybe they will even approach the breeders.

Scott Hassler of Hilltop Farm has some other ideas of how MAYBE, just maybe we can get a cadre of trainers, now that there will be some prize money involved, to share the costs of training and showing our youngsters so that there will be some prize money for the trainer and the breeder won't have to bear the entire cost. We are not there yet. We are brainstorming like crazy and hoping for some results.

I, and most of the people I know just flat out do not have the resources to fully campaign these youngsters by ourselves. Most of us spend an incredible amount of time working with babies. The average rider thinks they are just 'little horses'. As I'm sure you are aware as a breeder they require a totally different approach than schooled horses. We study bloodlines, we look at best combinations, we don't just breed to the most famous name or the most expensive stud fee, but look at what will 'nick' best with our mares. We shape these little guys manners and attitudes and behavior. We work with them, we care for them, we bring them up to be good citizens. We don't just breed them and stick them out in a field to grow up by themselves and then good luck to whoever buys them. We're all working on star awards for our mares. We've got Mare Performance Testing available now in this country and I'm going to take every filly I can to the tests.

We are insulted when some one offers us $3000 for a foal that has far more invested in it. Some breeders have lower costs, some have higher costs. If you have your own stallion and land and can do the insemination yourself, of course your costs will be less, but those of us who have to pay for EVERYTHING are still asking what we believe to be fair market value. We all have catastrophic costs at times because foals seem to walking accidents looking for a place to happen. What do we do then? Jack up the price of all the horses? No! Most people have a 'fire sale' to try to get some money coming in quickly to try to recoup some of the hospitalization costs/vet fees. We're not unreasonable people, we're not ignorant people, we're not stupid people.

I don't know where your statement <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Anyone who doesn`t think they need more education is either the reincarnation of Albert Einstein or an arrogant person.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>comes from. Most of the breeders I know will do almost anything to go to a seminar to learn more about breeding and breed improvement. As has been stated above, stallions that were approved 10 years ago would probably not be invited to the 100 Day Test today. Foals have to get higher scores to make Premium AND you don't see very many foals at all these days getting scores of 6.5. New breeders do still sometimes bring unacceptable mares to an inspection, but you see that less and less. ALL my foundation mares fillies are better than she. THEY are giving me Premium foals. Every generation gets better, rather than staying the same. I think I'm going in the right direction.

I applaud USA Equestrian for trying to require US foaled horses to be the ones to qualify for the FEI World Young Horse Championships. I think they need to take it one step further and make it US bred.

We're racking our brains out here trying to figure out how to affordably get these young horses trained and shown. I spent over $300 6 years ago to take one yearling filly in one single class at Dressage at Lexington. I can't afford much of that. Pleas help us figure something out rather than saying we don't know what we're doing and driving more people to Europe to buy the 'ideal' horse.

Thanks for listening to us all.

Sheila O'Keefe/Tranquility Farm/Charles Town, WV

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Ashemont

Jun. 29, 2003, 07:28 PM

One other point... not only are we, as breeders, not getting enough support from our US organizations, but until all of the WB associations stop pushing the "shop in Germany" tours we're going to continue to lose market-share. As long as it's so prestigious to breed via frozen semen to the stallion on the other side of the pond we're shooting ourselves in the foot. I think a good shot of patriotism is needed. We have the horses. We have the stallions. We have the bloodlines. We just need someone to get the word out.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Laurie@CBF

Jun. 29, 2003, 08:03 PM

We are all up for learning more.

Denny is missing the point. The fact is that most stallion issues of the COTH have an article written by Denny. This venue allows him to state his views that are the basis for his breeding program. This in turn has "helped" him to sell more breedings to his stallions. I know this for fact as one of my clients chose Loyal Pal after reading those articles (when I lent her my stallion issues). They are a "novice breeder" who has no idea what they are going to do with that 2 yr old in the field. When I see this client - I can understand Denny's point of view.

Most of the WB sporthorse breeders that I know are not like that client. It is obvious that most of the participants in this conversation have a good deal of knowledge about breeding WB sporthorses. You bet I feel dissapointed when I read Denny's thoughts. He is denying us the same opportunity that has in part helped him become the success that he is today.

We are not looking for "glowing articles" about our programs - we just want a fair chance to promote our young stock. Denny's articles have us "thrown out of the race - before we even get to the gate". Why would anyone look in the US for a young horse after reading those articles?????

Laurie Cameron
Clear Blue Farm

Tiki

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:57 AM

These articles are sending the 'uneducated' buyers to Europe. They brag when they come home that they were able to buy a really nice foal for only $3000-$5000 and that our horses are priced too high. Well, they forget to add the cost of airfare, renting a car, staying in a hotel, ground transportation to the airport, flight home for the horse, quarantine, ground transportation home, AND perhaps the cost of same for their trainer. When they get home, GUESS WHAT? they still have a $3000-$5000 foal that they have now paid anywhere from $15,000-$25,000 for. We had one of the top German trainers of young horses over here recently. He said he routinely buys 30 to 40 foals a year for $25,000-$50,000. The Americans (for the most part) are buying the foals that the Germans don't want.

I have 2 foals (and NO, this is not a sales pitch, just a statement of fact) with Rubinstein I, Donnerhall and Bolero, Numbers 1, 2 and 6 on the World Dressage Sires Ranking List. All are very well known for their dressage ability, Rubinstein and Bolero are very well known for their rideability. I have a 2 year old and 3 year old with Olympic Cocktail in their pedigree. He was Number 6 on the ranking list when he was alive, he's dropped to 18 now that he is dead. My mares have classic bloodlines and all the foals have wonderful dispositions. I bred them expecting an outstanding cross, and boy did I get it! There's no need to go overseas to get these bloodlines anymore.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
[I]We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

denny

Jun. 30, 2003, 03:19 AM

I`m sorry that so many of you seem to be so offended that I said we American breeders need more education. Obviously, many of you feel you are already right on target, and don`t fit into that catagory.
But the fact is that for whatever reason, most of the high profile riders that I read about in all the equestrian press are riding non American breds, and I would ask one more time, WHY?
You can get just as mad at that article(and me) as you want, but unless it makes you so mad that it forces you to sit down and answer that question, this is just more talk.
At any time in each sport, there are about 15-20 riders, never more, who grab most of the headlines. In eventing it`s the O`Connors, Kim Severson, Philip Dutton, John Williams, etc. You in the other disciplines know who your current top people are.
In eventing, Carrick is Canadian bred, but Cozy`s Commander, his sire is dead, so often the way.All the others are usually associated with Irish or English breds.
If we breeders could have the great riders out there on US breds, with all the attendant spotlight, that would be the one best marketing and promotion scenario we could imagine.
But right now, generally speaking, those riders aren`t on US breds. WHY NOT? If, as you imply, our foals are just as good, what is missing? Is it marketing? Is it promotion and publicity? Is it that the top riders don`t know about your foals? Is it that you can`t afford to get them properly trained? Some combination of some of these?
THOSE QUESTIONS, then, should be the substance of YOUR educational seminars, it seems to me. If you already are producing top foals, but aren`t often placing them in the hands of the great rides, you need to fix that missing piece.
I repeat: THERE IS NOTHING MORE BENEFICIAL TO SOMEONE`S BREEDING PROGRAM THAN SEEING ONE OF YOUR BABIES ON THE COVER OF A BIG HORSE MAGAZINE, winning some famous competition with some famous rider.
I see lots of those cover pictures, but precious few US breds. So you HAVE TO somehow get those big name riders more involved with what you all are doing and producing.
That`s part of what I meant when I say we are collectively not knowledgeable enough. If we were, we`d have those riders sitting on our babies, and by and large, we don`t.
I really don`t have any more to add. Vent at me, if it makes you feel better, but if you want to accomplish something productive, make allies of our top riders.Somehow!!??
Denny

Ashemont

Jun. 30, 2003, 03:41 AM

Denny,

I hope you didn't think I was venting on YOU... I joined this conversation late and was just presenting my own position.

I think you hit the target - we ARE missing the marketing,we ARE missing the promotion and pulicity, the top riders do NOT know about our foals, and with all the costs of breeding most of us cannot afford to hold onto those foals and get them fully trained.

As for pictures on magazines - we've had our horses on covers. Didn't help. Why? Because they end up on the covers of magazines outside the US and we don't get any credit! Most recently a full brother to the mare I'm now riding was on the cover of the British magazine "Horse & Rider" - but of course my name, as breeder, appeared nowhere. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

So what is the solution? In your capacity as the chair of the breeding committee what can the USAE do to help us? As I said, some of us in NC are really trying to come up with solutions by pooling our resources. There are other such groups all over the US. Maybe your committee could help network our groups? Would you be willing to come to our meetings and discuss strategies?

I wish I had the answers. If I did I wouldn't have 6 youngsters out in the pasture still for sale. But maybe if we all pull together and start brainstorming ideas we might just get somewhere. I've paid dues to the USAE for a long, long time and have personally seen little in return. As I said, this would be a good time for the USAE to step forward and champion our good homebreds by setting a date by which all international riders representing our country had to be mounted on US-bred horses. It would be a wonderful start and I'm sure you could help tremendously to make a real difference. We horsepeople have always been our own worst enemies; we need to stop bickering among ourselves and start focusing on solutions. If we all pull together I'm sure we can do it!

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 03:59 AM

You know Denny this dialogue would be more productive if you would take the time to READ our responses. Our top riders want MADE HORSES.

HELLO USAE - showing in this country is off the richter scale for costs. When we get these horses going under saddle it takes a "trust fund" to put adequate mileage on them. Look at what one person spent to take ONE filly to ONE breed show. If you'd read our comments Denny you'd stop asking us the same questions.

Also stop making the statement that we think we know it all - every single person posting on here taking exception to your article filled with incorrect information - has repeatedly said we spend huge amounts of time continually seeking more knowledge from worldclass individuals. We network all the time from coast to coast regardless of which registry we are affiliated with for our horses. We meet and talk at breed shows, performance shows and I'll tell you - we help each other out all the time when it comes to sharing information or sharing the heartbreaks we sometimes have to face. When someone calls looking for a horse we don't have - we refer them on to another breeder we know. We have a strong network regarding problems with certain stallions for breeding, which stallion owners are easy/impossible to work with and specific issues on production of foals by certain lines - good and bad. We KNOW which lines need professional riders and those that even an amateur could start. WE CONSTANTLY UPDATE THIS INFORMATION AND SHARE IT.

My question to you is - WHY DON'T YOU KNOW THIS? You are the Chair of the USAE Breed Committee - aren't you?? You're the one with the print megaphone - why doesn't the USAE do a survey and ask ALL the riders (not just your short list of top riders) where they buy horses and why they go to that source? The USAE has 80,000 members as you are quoted in the article - stop telling the breeders to go do this work - we pay dues - DO SOMETHING FOR US.

And you seem to feel so strongly about more seminars - the USAE should be on the mailing list for ALL sporthorse breed registries - circle those dates for all the seminars, lectures, inspections, testings and send a member from your committee to at least a few of them. Then you will see how factually incorrect your article and opinions are. You state quite firmly that you feel only about 2500 members of the USAE can judge a horse and it's pedigree. I feel strongly that you are so wrong about this. Maybe they aren't riding the top horses or winning gold medals but if you take the time to look closely their names are in the fine print on the registration papers for many, many, many horses that have consistently successful careers, are sound & competing year after year, produce top quality foals and NEVER get the credit they deserve for being great horses. Unfortunately they have no voice in the USAE either! And I'm sure if you surveyed the various sporthorse registries you'd find they have been doing SEMINARS for decades now - nothing new to them - BECAUSE the USAE (previously AHSA) was not!!

I suggest you visit: http://www.sporthorsefederation.org/
The sporthorse registries that are members are some of the largest in North America.
Also note that most are now members of the World Breeding Federation - so we've plugged into the European data base as well. All of our horses have registration I.D. #'s with tracking on pedigree. These registries have had to move ahead because the focus of the USAE wasn't on creating the data base that we must have - it was on litigation for the past two years. The USAE Breeding Committee should have one PERMANENT LIASON to the North American Sporthorse Federation or better yet a permanent seat for the head of the Federation. That would facilitate information flowing back and forth on a current basis, avoid redundency in programs or process and assure that inaccurate representations on the state of Sporthorse Breeding in North America DON'T find there way into major equestrian publications to further confuse the market and push buyers to Europe.

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 30, 2003, 05:00 AM

Denny
You are the Chair of the USAE Breed Committee. You would like to help the breeders in this country to succeed. I would be happy to market to the top riders. Please tell me which ones purchase foals and weanlings. How about 3 year olds? Know ONE that wants a foal? Send them my way. If they like what they see, I WILL GIVE THEM ONE - as long as they keep it, train it, show it. Breeders can't afford to keep all of these youngsters until they are ready for FEI. We have to sell them when they are young, or we just can't keep breeding.

What would your suggestions be to encourage Robert Dover to buy a foal?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jun. 30, 2003, 05:01 AM

Denny - there was a 13 page thread in Feb called "are North American breeders missing the mark somehow??" in which this group brainstormed a bunch on the topic. The need for that middle layer - perhaps via regional training centers with periodic auctions - is one thing I got oout of that thread.

I'd link to it if I knew how, but a search should find it, and you'll find many in this group have been grappling with and brainstorming on how to get the NA-breds out there in their glory.

Tiki

Jun. 30, 2003, 06:09 AM

I actually tried to do a free lease with a Young Rider who would have trained my horse to a high level under the supervision of a very well known trainer. I even offered to leave the horse with him through the Olympics if he could get her and himself there. The answer was, "No thanks, she's too green. I want something I can win on". For a free lease!!!!! This horse was doing wtc and old enough to learn all the lateral work and progress rapidly.

Hey, guys, how about that for getting some of our horses out there. Are there any reliable, responsible, qualified Young Riders riding with well known trainers that we could place well started, but still green, with who could give them quality mileage and exposure??? Maybe that could at least be a start for the 'missing middle layer'.

These kids usually get free board for one horse. Denny, do you think you or other big name riders would be interesting in giving a promising Young Rider one more free stall and training/lessons to help get our young guys started and out there????? We provide the horse, the Trainer provides the stall and training/lessons and the Young Rider works his/her butt off learning to be a good horseman, learns the upper level movements on his/her own horse, and learns how to train a green, but started horse??????? This way our Young Riders would learn how to train horses, not just ride them and increase the pool of competent trainers for young horses in this country.

I would be more than willing to pay the $850 per month to my very wonderful trainer for 90 days of proper, quality starting if this could work to get them out there and seen.

What do you think, guys and gals and Denny????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Whoops, forgot my signature again, although all my contact info is on my website below.

Sheila O'Keefe/Tranquility Farm
Charles Town, WV

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

bluemoonfarms

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:10 AM

I haven't posted in a while but felt I had to jump in. I breed and show dressage and jumping horses. My mares have all been imported and are by Dirano, Donnerhall, Don Schufro, Grand Cru, Karandasj and Rubinstein I. These mares have been very successful under saddle and in hand, winning many championships and year end awards. They have had offspring by Del Piero, Karandasj, Pikadero and Sandro Hit. The oldest is one of the Pikadero's and will be started under saddle next month. I am very excited to see how he will perform and is in the IHF and the IJF. I am hoping that these youngsters will have successful futures under saddle and I am proud that I have bred them. I do have one mare that Margie Engle is currently riding in the Young Jumper Championships. What I find very dissapointing is when I go to watch this mare at a show there are maybe 6 people watching the class. There appears to be very little public interest in these classes and these are held at the bigger shows. So I spend a lot of money to get a young horse, (not bred by me) to get the proper training and show experience and I am suprised at the "lack of interest" in the young horse classes. I don't have any answers and I guess more questions but I feel that I am doing a good job at breeding and raising what might be the next generations of top performance horses. I know there are other breeders in the US doing the same thing and I don't feel that things are as dismal here as portrayed by some. Working together instead of against each other is the only way to reach the final goal....

Denise Higgins www.bluemoonfarms.net (http://www.bluemoonfarms.net)
Domestic & Imported Warmbloods

meghan1963

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:25 AM

I have followed this thread with a lot of interest. I work with a lot of American breeder's and I find they are as a whole very educated about bloodlines and many know more than I do. I see the main problem as being US RIDERS and Trainers. Ask most riders & trainers the breeding on their horse and they will be clueless. I have been shocked by the lack of education about bloodlines that the riders & trainers have. Time and time again I hear from the riders is they don't care about bloodlines - they just care about how the horse goes under saddle i.e. how well can the horse jump & how good does it move. I want to scream when I hear that - and I can't believe that educated people don't see the correlation between the pedigrees of top horses and their success in sport. When I see a horse I like the first thing I want to know is what the breeding of the horse is. A lot of the top trainer’s & riders can’t answer that question when I ask it. That just amazes me!!! All one has to do is go to the Spruce Meadow's wonderful web-site and check out the pedigrees of the horses competing there and you will see that obviously the bloodlines are a good gauge of the quality of the horse. You can see which stallions are producing the best jumpers for the speed classes and which have the power for the 1.60m classes. You can see how certain crosses seem to be better than others. Maybe if the US shows (besides DAD) would offer all this info to the public, riders, trainers and yes even breeder's would be more educated.

I find it much easier to get pedigree info from all the foreign shows than the domestic shows. All the top shows in Europe and Canada have great web-sites with complete breeding info. Try to find that on an US horse show web-site –it will either be incomplete or missing entirely. Compare the Spruce Meadows site to the results on Ryegate and you will see what I am talking about.

For me one way the USAEQ Breeding committee can help promote US Breeder’s & our products is to help us educate the riders & trainers about the bloodlines and success of our domestically bred horses. Let’s see a push to have shows & the horse magazines to include bloodlines in their programs, web-site and articles. Even COTH often doesn’t mention the bloodlines of the horses in the articles. Pick up a magazine like HORSE INTERNATIONAL and they will at least list the sire & probably the dam’s sire and the breeder of most of the horses in the articles.

I believe that the people who ride & show horses knew more about the bloodlines and talent available here in the USA they would start buying more horses here.

Meghan de Garay

JDufort

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:36 AM

Tiki

I like the way you're thinking!
As the Mom and current sole "owner" for an up and coming eventing Young Rider (just made the USET long list), we are only too aware that access to quality horses and the carrying cost for those horses is too often a career-breaking barrier for young people with talent and a good work ethic.
We have the working student opportunities, plus USET-provided opportunities to help with training and some competition expenses. If we could also create a win-win partnership between breeders-working students-top professionals that could bridge the current gap that keeps our elite riders (mostly) on imported horses, what a positive long-term impact on the sport!

Jeanne

BTW - my Young Rider actually prefers making horses, and she has had the benefit of working under top professionals (Jill Turner Williams, Werner Geven (NED)) who share the same love. We have 4 yr old Lion King gelding (American bred) she's just starting - and she's having a blast with him!

Tiki

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:47 AM

Jeanne, maybe we have something started here. What we have to do now is to convince the trainers to take up to 2 horses with free board (I believe most trainers will give you free board on one horse) and that the Young Rider will train and show a started horse under their supervision. I think most breeders can make the sacrifice to start the youngsters. This could give us the help we need to get these young horses out in the public eye, succeeding, and get them sold to good show homes. If the horse gets 'sold out from under' the Young Rider, most of us could almost immediately supply them with another. This would keep the YR on their own higher level competition horse, but give them even more experience at training and showing young horses. The more you ride, the better you get.

Any ideas about how to get trainers interested in supporting this program. This may be a huge piece of the 'missing middle layer' that Scott Hassler was working so hard to help us solve.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

JDufort

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:28 AM

Okay - this is my business-thinking coming through, since I'm not a horse-world professionsl. But it could look like this:

Using USAEq support, create a multi-discipline network of active riders/trainers with working student programs and breeders feeding those disciplines. Stated goal is something like "by 2020, increase the percentage of American-bred horses competing at Elite levels from XXX to XXX". Initial program created to influence those numbers utilizes the supervision of top trainers/riders and the time/effort of Young Riders to start and compete young American-bred horses provided by breeders. Figure out the legal stuff, and how to identify reasonable costs and find appropriate ways to share them. Use USAEq to promote the program, track and publicize results (short and long term).

I like the potential this has for introducing Young Riders to the experience of working for owners - making progress reports, keeping open lines of communications, being accountable for results - all significant skills for a budding professional.

Denny - how can we get the trainer/top rider perspective on this? What's their incentive?

Jeanne

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:45 AM

The road to the top is through the ranks and unfortunately the lack of information on the horses now competing AT ALL LEVELS - does't even allow us to evaluate if the horses are domestically bred or not. Somehow someone made the leap that because the top Dressage horses or some Show Jumper or Event Horses are imported, we don't have any "rising starts" that aren't. I'm very convinced that's a mistaken presumption or assumption.

I know some of the names of the horses and their owners and I know they were bred in North America - but who else will know this if the sire/dam/breeder aren't indicated on the performance results.

Building to the Olympic level isn't a "giant single step". As we start to see certain breed combinations or lines with horses showing up consistently in the result - we know to keep going back - when we NEVER see any progress - hey it's obvious. I know where my horses are with their owners but I don't know very much about the other horses out there.

The END OF THE YEAR awards is IMHO the Best Place to Start. Every single horse that makes it into any of the results SHOULD have the Breeders name. As the very least - the TOP TEN should have sire/dam/breeder. That's for all the various horse associations, publications, etc. What you start to see is repeats of certain sires, certain dams and certain breeders.

We want our horses to be competition horses - nice to have an Olympian in there somewhere but we can't hold our breath for that we have to keep breathing and making sure that they are progressing and what and where they are competing.

INFORMATION IS INVALUABLE for decision making process for breeding, buying, training, etc. Seeing it in print - makes it available to EVERYONE.

CM Frank

Jun. 30, 2003, 10:42 AM

The breeder's name is entered into the database when it is available. It is also published on the website in the horse links from the standings lists:
___________

2003 HORSE RESULTS

JUDGEMENT

$25,000 Plus (gr. Prix)
Sire: Consul
Dam: Faletta
Breed: Dutch Warmblood
Breeder: Iron Spring Farm Inc
____________

poltroon

Jun. 30, 2003, 12:21 PM

I am a dedicated amateur rider who finds bloodlines fascinating. Someday I'd love to be a breeder. I live in Southern California, full of big name trainers and expensive horses.

I do think the "middle" - getting from yearling to, say, 5-6 - is the biggest issue. Why?

As I said, here in Southern California we are fortunate to have a big selection of some of the world's best known trainers. Some of them are excellent, even with young horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Why are they here? Well, the weather's nice, but there's also a big concentration of shows and of riders who make enough money to pay for $60 or $80 or $90 riding lessons or training sessions. And in turn, those prices are necessary because real estate prices are through the roof here, with empty space at a premium.

With space so scarce, horses don't have room to run and play, as one would want babies to do, and at $500 a month just for board, keeping a young horse that has a couple of years to go before he is ready to show is just not economical. When you spend $1200 to $1500 a month to have a horse here, the purchase price becomes irrelevant - when you're buying, waiting 6 months saves you enough money to put you in a whole new price range. When you're selling, waiting 6 months turns your profit to a loss.

So, the only way to profitably breed baby horses is to do so in the boonies - far away from the people who want to buy and board those horses.

Here's my idea for making this jump.

Maybe it's time to figure out how to build a USA training center. This could be a boon for breeders, for buyers, and for riders. If it's big enough, it will be its own critical mass and will attract people by virtue of its own existence, even though it may be far away from normal centers of riding activity.

Breeders would have a place where they could send their youngsters where they'd be assured of a good, strong start, and a regular stream of buyers. Some number of good young professionals would train there because they'd be assured of a regular paycheck.

Oh, how the riders would benefit.
- People looking to buy could go for a week, and look at a hundred young horses with one plane ticket in a nice and horsey setting. There are plenty of people who would do that rather than fly to Germany or Ireland if the setting were right.

- Amateur riders looking for good instruction could go for a week at the training center, riding some of the center's trained horses

- Young professional riders would have a place to go to ride and work with young horses where they could afford to live and still learn.

- Since it would be somewhere out in the boonies, the young horses could be regularly hacked out on grassy fields and learn to gallop, keeping their brains fresh and getting the seasoning the event riders need.

If I could go to, say, the Kentucky Horse Park, and experience this, you can bet I would've spent several (more) weeks of my life there. Montana? Nebraska? Missouri? You got it. I'm there, and my friends who buy 5-figure horses would be there too. Put it next to a golf course and the horsey husbands would be keen on spending time there, too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Saddlebag

Jun. 30, 2003, 12:23 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifWell...I think Denny is right on the money with his observations about the Americal Sporthorse Breeding scene. What is important is for a significant number of American bred horses to be competitive in International and National shows, and for those horses to be ridden by our top riders and trained by our top trainers. All that hoop-la about Premium this and Verband that, and all the Championships and ribbons won in Breeding shows and Sporthorse Evaluations are absolute nonsense unless those same horses appear a year or so later with a Chris Kappler or a Debbie McDonald or a David O'Connor on their backs kicking some serious butt in the International field. Or even, if we saw those horses on the "A" show circuit winning Championships with an amateur rider, or carrying a top Junior to the win in the Maclay Finals. But those horses just vanish into obscurity, because nobody trainedthem beyond the rudimentary stages, put them into a realistic on-going training program and gave them a career. The American market demands an animal that is ready to compete, and that need is being met by the Europeans, and not by our American Breeders who whine about how much everything costs, and that there are no "hungry" riders willing to take on a green horse. All true, but not likely to change anytime soon. So...instead of snivveling about this situation while you spend $2500 "showcasing" your youngsters at the fancy Breeders Show to (you guessed it) other Breeders, why not get those babies out there jumping and/or doing Dressage, and spend that $2500 taking them to a REAL Horse Show, and fling them into the showring to see how they stand up in the face of competition. There, they might be seen by some actual trainers and buyers!

I just got back from two weeks of "A" showing in the Jumper Division with two colts I bred, raised and trained. They are full brothers, and I had shown their dam during her career as a Show Jumper. One (a 6 year old) had shown a few times last year, and the other (a 5 year old was at his first shows ever). Well, the results were quite gratifying actually. Both colts performed well, and won quite a few ribbons, and even the younger one felt totally prepared to compete at that level and by the second week, I moved him up to a higher division. And you know, several trainers asked about the two horses, and if I had any more like that at home, and they wereinterested in learning their breeding and what their parents had done in competition. At the same show, another young horse that I had sold recently, was competing in Hunter Classes with her young rider. I had several inquiries from trainers looking for Hunters after seeing her go.

So...like Denny says, get those young horses into the showring or Eventing field or Dressage Court. And then, find out how the winners are bred, find out who the top trainers and riders are, and if you can't do it yourself, put one of those guys on your horses and go for it. That is a better way, I think, than spending an equal fortune trying to out-glitz and out-advertise and out-hustle other breeders. Get out in the "real" world, and win something! And if you are capable of training and competing yourself, it will be much cheaper than having to pay a trainer to do it for you, and think of all the fun you will have!

I am of the same age Denny is (a year older, actually), but fortunately, I still can ride, and I still enjoy the training process. I pay someone to break my colts for me, but I do the rest. No, I am not rich, and I can't afford to show very often, but I do know that if your horses don't get to the shows, you will never sell them!

poltroon

Jun. 30, 2003, 12:39 PM

Another thing - I hear that riders don't want to put out the work, but I don't really buy that. "Young kids today" has been a refrain for at least 40 years.

I am in my early thirties. As a kid, I rode h/j in a fairly ordinary barn outside Los Angeles. There were 4 junior students about my age who rode with me, and we were all very dedicated, very hard workers. We did not have access to trails or cross country riding, but we all rode without stirrups, without reins, and we rode 5-6 days a week. On weekends we would ride multiple horses - picking up rides for people who were away, or riding a lesson horse that needed tuning, or whatever.

I do not think kids have changed all that much. However, the opportunities are fading. In the Los Angeles area, you're hard-pressed to find stables that have lesson horses any more - with board prices so high, unless you own the property and bought it 30 years ago, the only way to make it economical is to have a few lesson horses that are working several times a day. So the people who stick with it are the old trainers (who, sadly, get older), or people who are willing to give the horses substandard care, or people who are lucky enough to have other income.

The trainers I know are not getting wealthy on the business they have. They may buy one young horse to bring along, but they're eating plenty of macaroni and cheese and keeping their old cars to scrape together enough to take the youngster to a show too. No one is taking a big profit out - we have to figure out how to lower the costs.

Sorry, this has gotten a bit afield from the breeders... but these kids, even the ones who see horses, may never have met a horse younger than three. How can they learn to evaluate foals if they've never seen one?

I'm relatively worldly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif as an amateur horseman... I've done dresage to 3rd level, evented through training level, showed the 3'6" equitation, been deeply involved in horses for over 20 years... and yet I can count the number of foals I've met in person on two hands, and have never had the privilege of a long term relationship with a baby younger than 3. If I were to buy a young horse, he'd be restricted to an hour of 36' x 36' turnout a day - which doesn't feel all that healthy to me. Bad enough for the old ones. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Lisamarie8

Jun. 30, 2003, 12:40 PM

i'm a nobody and have nothing to do with breeding but i do compete ... and i will probably get fussed at for this...

Saddlebag, your post made a whole lot of sense to me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--- I may be love's b*tch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:16 PM

Well great for you Saddlebag - Perhaps you'd like to give your name as DENNY INSISTED WE DO - so we can check you out at the shows!

We didn't say we don't show our horses. I did say I don't go to Breed shows. If we keep them and start them - we do show them. But sorry my Dear - I have no trust fund - I can't campaign 5-10 horses on the "A" circuit and maintain a breeding business at home! NEITHER COULD YOU - EVEN IN CALIFORNIA and keep going with just income from horse sales. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Regarding Premiums and scoring IT IS VALID - IT'S WHAT THE EUROPEAN REGISTRIES HAVE FOLLOWED TRIED AND TRUE. Sit through a lecture by Mr. Christman from the Hanoverian Verband with all the statistics that show that's how they pick their top horses. I guess you feel it's all hooey - well why don't you send a letter to them - sign it - and tell them you've found the Rosetta stone we missing to explain the solution.

Our horses are competing WITH THEIR OWNERS. I actually prefer to see them with the people we sell them to - riding, competing, doing well. The TOP HORSE THING is a big mixed bag - all winter in FLA in an 8 x 8 stall, no turn out, meds up the kazzo and ulcer medication on top of that and we won't even get into the rest....then shipped back north and all over the East Coast.

It's so easy to point out the people you did - THEY HAVE SPONSORS who want competition horses ...right now! Few want a stable full of youngsters they are bringing along. Hunterdon is 20 miles from me - they don't go out looking for young horses. If anything they pick up horses in Europe who have training on them.

We aren't snivelling either - love to call and talk to you about your successes but you remain anonymous!! Perhaps you have the recipe that we all should be following - why not get out there and tell us who you are so we can get going on your plan - since you seem to feel we are the cry babies in this game.

DO THE MATH - then wave that finger in our nose. I can't imagine your are incorporated as a business either - WE ARE - and the IRS expects a profit showing and we have to keep records and receipts, etc. etc. When I was a hobby rider breeding one every other year - it was a very different situation - much like the one you enjoy.

mbp

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:29 PM

Actually nothing that has been posted by anyone makes me angry or upset - I think there are some good ideas and different perspectives floating around. The frustration, I think, is generalized, not targeted at some particular post. I appreciated Saddlebags and Hexel and Tikis comment in different places in particular, and I appreciate the fact that Cheryl and Denny are coming here with an effort at communication.

As a lowly small time breeder who doesn't actually aspire to sell to Margie or Guenter and who has been on the sidelines through some of the wars (with nothing but fairly good experiences with any of the registries), but who has been around alot, at different levels of some of the different sports, and with a business background and a somewhat historical perspective, here is my take on some of the issues/items raised or not raised (Keeping in the back of my mind the very good question - why don't the riders buy here?) Some of this I already touched on earlier, but to ramble on:

**1. Education. I don't think any breeders think they know it all. You can't. Heck you can cross a mare and stallion 4 times and get 4 very different horses, but conversely you can sometimes cross a mare with 4 different stallions and get foals so close that anyone could pick them out as siblings in a heartbeat. To "know"something about the cross, you have to make. And make it again. And see it grow up. ANd then still you don't "know". Everyone is geared for education. I have been to a breeding seminar at Hilltop and one with Hilda Gurney(btw - I believe Hilda,as both a rider and breeder, has participated in several seminars), have attended about 10 inspections with different registries, bought a boatload of books and videos, participated and lurked on breeders forums, have watched some of the final 100day testings at Paxton, and would like to do quite a bit more. Realistically though, there will be some limits on how much I can travel the countryside for those opportunities. Anytime there is an L program or something similar nearby I try to go (lots of good info on biomechanics of gaits etc. in some of the early sessions of the L programs) and I have met a couple of breeders there too - some who have really travelled to get there, bc of the educational opportunities.
So I do think that the educational aspects tie in part to some of the other issues facing US breeders, including geography and fractionalization of the breeders groups and scarcity of non-private infrastructure, and, to be honest, our geographic distance from some of the stallions who are setting the standards. It might be premature to criticize breeders for not knowing enough withouthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gifi) participating in some of those venues and seeing what breeders are bringing to the table in terms of knowledge, (ii) factoring in the time frame for some of these breeders, and (iii) looking at some of the non-education issues facing the breeders. There are a lot of breeders who are putting out the time and effort to provide information and host seminars, and the inspectors with most of the registries make a big effort to educate at the inspections. Ilona has mentioned some of what she does, Anne Gribbons has been involved recently in a seminar, Los Alamos hosts several functions, GOV has held seminars, etc. But a lot of this is the breeders making it happen, not an organization supporting their efforts. I might ask, for example, if the Breeding Committee was aware that Bo Jenna has been in the states for several months and his qualifications to provide some good seminars? Any attempts by the committee to utilize that source while he is here? Unfortunately, breeders have to paste a lot of this together themselves. On the education front, personally, I also think it is a bit of a problem that it is so hard to discuss the "cons" of any particular stallion without it becoming a bashing session or hard feelings getting involved. I have 3 nice but different mares and remember asking the owner of a very well known stallion what types of mares her stallion crossed best with and merely getting a snooty "nice mares" in response. Ok, fine. I sat down with inspectors from a registry though and they discussed several different options with me, but seemed to have to be very "careful" when we came to cons for domestic stallions, although for foreign stallions they would be much more forthcoming (he would give you this and this, but be careful of that). To be fair, some of that is that they see SO MANY MORE of the offspring of the foreign stallions. Which is another problem IMO. Study all you want, there is nothing to beat seeing the stallions. Seeing the offspring up front. So, in essence, we are telling breeders here they HAVE to make the trips to Europe. That is just not feasible for some of us. Really helpful I admit, but the $$ don't support it for a small breeder. If we stay here, do we at least get to see the domestically based stallions up close and personal though? AGain, how much travelling are you going to be able to do. Where are the stallion shows etc. for breeders to see them? I don't mean win a ribbon pay a big entry fee shows, I mean breeders in a region getting together and stallions being there, available in person, with maybe some get and putting on a show for folks. WHy don't people show up to watch breed classes - boring. WHy do people show up in Europe to watch some of the stallion shows etc. - I am only speaking from second hand knowledge - but it sure seems like it is because they put on a show. Kyra riding Master weaving through the torches. People singing and clapping as stallions are trotted in hand with a band playng. VDL and Nijhoffs having "open houses" with the stallions and get and a nice big ol party atmosphere. I empathize with stallion owners about the costs of competing and marketing a stallion - but how about getting together with other local stallion owners and having a venue for an openhouse/party? Do a raffle for a breeding. Let the 12 yo jump Stallion A, do a pas de deux with B & C, a musical with D, bring in E and stand him at X and let some of his under saddle get do a quadrille around him, let Stallion F show how he lets the owner's aussie jump on his butt and ride for trail rides, get a High School band to come play or a local vineyard to work with a wine tasting etc. - but you have to regionally coordinate to pull those things off. But then breeders get to see the stallions in the flesh and that is an education that videos and books can't replace.

2. Time Frame/Freaks and Geeks. Twenty-five years is not a lot of time for a breeding farm to have to produce a number of top quality horses, at least, not for a small breeder. A lot of the small to mid-size breeders may have only been involved for that long or much much less. Take Frank, give him a tight budget, have him go out and buy 2 new mares in that budget, and let him breed within that budget for 8 years and then ask me to explain why he doesn't have another Gem Twist on the ground ready to go in someone's barn? Was it Twain or Rogers who said, there are lies, d*mn lies and statistics? LOL Also, if the measure is going to be Olympic horses, well, IMO the absolute top top horses are often freaks. Not to say that blood does not run true and the "right" blood will be around in a lot of the top competitors, but when was the last time full brothers or full sisters, for example, won Olympic gold? Stallion and direct son or daughter both winning Olympic gold? Blood tells, but it doesn't tell all. Training, handling, injuries, etc. all have their input and to be honest - I think for a one or two mare breeder, with a normal small breeders budget, you could have the biggest breeding geek in the world and still not necessarily, in 5 or 10 or even 25 years have an Oympic Gold "freak" to show for it. We do have some hunter and a few jumper breeders who have been around for long enough - and some of them have really good results to show for it, but we don't get the word out on those breeder.

3. Publicizing breeders and their results. Denny, how ez was it to answer NY Breeders Questions? It might have been ez for you - I thought of Idocus pretty quickly but blanked completely on Judgement (ok, part of that is I am primarily interested in dressage). But I think it is sad that her/his questions were probably hard for a lot of folks in addition to me to answer, bc we don't do a very good job with promoting the breeders. How about another breeder, who bred the stallion Champion at Devon, a stallion that has gone on to GP Jumping and FEI dressage and this same breeder has bred several other approved stallions. I'm thinking of Gail Hoff-Carmona, but you know, someone else could fit that bill too and I just might never have really heard. I took my yearling to the dressage show at Kentucky a couple of years ago, without prep but just in acknowledgement of the need to get him away and to a big show grounds like the horsepark. He won his class and was reserve colt, while the winning colt and overall winner was a home bred stallion that I believe I saw later that year was the Cosequin Champion. The mare that was the reserve overall was a 3yo domestically bred mare by Juventus. A couple of years earlier I had taken the yearling's dam (who I did not breed, but purchased from her breeder Susan Haupt) to the same show and she won young horse champion as a 2yo. I pleaded and begged and waived $$ to handlers from the time I made my entry and couldn't get anyone to show her for me, she was just a "domestic" you know. A homebred stallion from KY was the overall winner and beat a very established imported stallion. There were a lot of imported mares in the classes and in the stallion classes definitely imported stallions - so why weren't they beating the OK - not performing horses, but still I think a nudge that all is not ignorance and that we don't really give much credit when our breeders do produce a nice one.

4. Ties in Europe/The "fad" factor. As per previous post, I think the importation of a lot of our trainers and top riders, and the sending them to Europe for competition, etc. means that they end up with more and better ties to the European breeders. And since everyone is constantly told how much nicer the horses are over there - well, it is the fad. Also, as breeders, we have to realize lookers can see more and see them more easily and started when they go. I understand the comments above about the 3-5,000 foal and how deceptive that is, but really a lot of the lookers are looking at 3+ and going and they are more actually going over there. I had a friend who recently was looking and had to take a pass on my horse she wanted bc of an xray question. I felt badly and tried to help her and my gosh, between unreturned phone calls, videos or pics that never came, footage of a "going under saddle" horse that only showed the horse being handwalked and trotted in hand, Gross disregard for her requirement (gelding, 2-4, not over 16.2, backed but not necessarily "going" not under 15.3 = response after response with mares, toobig, too little, never backed etc) bad luck (found one finally only to have him die in a freak accident b4 she flew up there) it just got old. She went with her trainer to the Netherlands and 3 days later, after seeing a boatload of horses, she had one. SHe was one who DID NOT WANT to do the Europe thing, wasn't as into the fad issue, but her trainer's contacts were mostly overseas and when it got difficult here - that's were they ended up.

5. Fractionalization. First off, when we talk about breeders, I think we have to realize that we have some different categories and different desires. Personally, I would lump the Event breeders, Dressage Breeders and Hunter breeders separately, with the jumper breeders floating camps, depending on what their "back up" goal would be (hunter vs. dressage vs. event). Someone with more experience might have a different take. These guys do not all have the same wants, needs and desires - although some of the basic issues on gettin horses started, expense, etc. are similar. I think when we refer to "breeders" sometimes we need to be more precise about the groups we are including. So in addition to that fractionalization, we then have the multitude of registries ON TOP of that. It makes it really hard on the breeders. I used to be more starry eyed about "the" registry, but really, over time, it has become that for me, "the" registry is the one that comes locally. If I have to drive through 4 state borders to get to their inspection in August heat with a rebred mare that the vet is telling me might resorb from the heat and the hauling - to heck with it - not so much "the" registry anymore. You also have to be a Trivia GrandMarshal to stay on top of it all. THis registry looks at mares free, so your great jumper mare with the nice canter will do better, that registry only looks at them in hand, this registry will approve your GOV mare, that registry will only approve your GOV mare if it was born in Europe, this registry will approve a tb mare, this one won't, this registry brands, this registry doesn't, this registry will let an outside stallion cover with approval and fees, that registry won't if the outside stallion has been in the states and not been brought for approval, this registry requires foal inspections, that registry encourages foal inspections but only requires approval inspections, etc. I mean, how stupid can breeders be and still remember to even ask all the right questions? Imagine a mpt in Germany where they had 2 local Oldenburg mares, then mares had to come from Holstein, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Westphalia? That is the equivalent of what our registry fractionalization does and my gut is you wouldn't have much participation in Europe either if they had to do things this way. The Swedes have a great riding horse testing program going, but how much participation would there be if they had to haul their horses into the Netherlands to participate. We have to regionalize our efforts more, IMO, to survive. I still think USAEq efforts to promote local breeding groups and offer standardized regional riding horse testing or similar activities - cross registry, would be a big benefit.

6. Infrastructure. This is an area that really bothers me, but I don't see it getting a lot of press. Why are shows so much cheaper in Europe? Sponsors, yea, and travel costs lower, and btw- people more agreeable about stabling, etc., but from what I have seen, and I may be wrong, one reason is infrastructure. The local riding clubs in many instances seem to own their show facilities. I know of a few western saddle clubs in this area where that is the case, but no dressage, breeder or jumper groups. When you have a fixed 1,000 or more rent cost - who is gonna do small shows? You have to go big or don't go and if you go big, it is so easy to wear out personnel. Why don't we have infrastructure and what do we need to do to get it? Here, the 4-H Grounds is the primary facility to rent out. It is booked primarily for 4-H (query again - how did 4-H get so much infrastructure) with all the horse groups fighting for dates after that. Those groups include Saddle Seat, Pony Club, dressage, lots of western - some AQHA some not, paint, etc. Then, the 4-H won't allow anything to be done to the arena's for footing, unless you take it out at the end of the show and dispose of it, bc they want to be able to do tractor pulls and similar activities in the rings. So ALL the horse groups complain about footing. And eventually, I see shows die off but the grounds continue to stay in active use for other purposes - company picnics, agility competitions, etc. so they don't bemoan the loss of horse activities. IMO we need local groups and we also need to try to find a way to promote local facilities and infrastructure. I don't really know how, but I do think itis a big issue. Local infrastructure is going to reduce showing costs, make it easier to have clinics, etc. make it more likely to have breeder/rider/trainer interaction, etc.

So - why do riders/trainers go overseas to buy their horses? I think, other than breeder education, some of the above have a bearing.

OOOPS, forgot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - Mary Perdue

Cartier

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:39 PM

Saddlebag,

I just read Ilona’s post to you and I’m going to take a wild guess here and say that you’re probably a tad offended. But before you respond, please take a minute to consider that, though you made some excellent points in your post, some of your word choices were offensive, e.g. the characterizations of “whinning” and “sniveling.” And possibly you aren’t aware of how much of Ilona’s heart is in the posts she’s written about this subject. She may be bubbling over just a tad by this time of day, but she has been trying for years to advance the cause and work to get breeders the recognition they deserve. She and others here are simply trying to find ways to resolve some of the obstacles breeders face. If she seems abrasive it may be because she’s said this all before… and it has to be frustrating…

And mbp,

That is one of the most thorough posts I’ve ever seen or read… You might take a look at Meghan de Garay's post on page 4 which I also thought was well written.

Pony1

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:42 PM

Ok for those of us who have read all the posts - LOTS of answers have been given - if you bother to read and abosorb the information.

First, from the "Are American Breeders missing the mark?" thread at the end of the day we decided that the middle layer was missing - that most riders of any level are not going to buy foals, and most riders are not going to buy unbroken young horses - what we are missing here in the good old USA are competent riders to "start" the young horses! get them going at the local and regional shows/events. So one of the answers is the middle layer between the breeder and top riders is needed to even get the american bred horses out there.

Second, lets call a spade a spade here, its just not as "Fashionable" to be riding an American bred, hasn't been for the last 20 years.

And third, lets not forget to give the devil his due - its not all ways the Rider nor the Trainer who has the Deep Pocketbooks that are buying the European horses to be the top / Olympic caliber compeitors- its the owners who have lots of money and do not have lots of education about horses American or otherwise making the decision to go to europe - and god forbid that the Rider/Trainer not get his commssion and suggest buying American.

Fourth, what can be done about it - well I think we have all said DATABASE, DATABASE, DATABASE, with complete information so buyers can find out what breeders and bloodlines are producing performance horses here in the USA - and that was not shouting - just caps to make it easier to see *grin* and the other thing that I think USAE could do to support American Breeders would be to sponsor American Bred Divisions - with good ole American mooola to "encourage" the top riders to start riding an American Bred horse!!! (with a percentage being paid to the breeder at years end) What could the USAE dop to make this a really ELITE, and Special, divison to encourage the RIDERS!!!! and trainers?

Last but not least - I do think that it is the Rider/Trainer community that needs to be asked the question WHY??- not the american Breeders. How about that Denny - why don't you and the breeding committee sponsor a poll of all the USAE member riders/trainers and then publish the responses - I think you will be suprised.

Gail Forrest
GaLa Farm
Jeffersonton, VA

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Home of the first American Riding Pony bred and born in the USA - GaLa's Stardust Legacy - www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)
"Proud Member of the Hunter Breeding Clique"

poltroon

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:51 PM

pony1-

I think you're so right about the database, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the USA Eq project finally bear fruit. (CM Frank - is there any provision for people to attach photographs, as in Del Mar? In the short term, it won't go far - but wouldn't it be cool to be able to look in the database and see a picture of your mare's granddam, or to see a mare and see how alike her 10 offspring were?)

And I love the idea of an American Bred division.

My sense is that although a lot of people go to Europe because it is fashionable, a large percentage go because they can expect to have a nice, suitable horse within a couple of weeks if they go that way, rather than waiting through months of frustration if they look locally. Trainers encourage this, too - less work for them, all-expense-paid vacation to Europe, and the sooner they have a nice horse in the barn generating training and showing fees. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 01:55 PM

Great post MBP - I REALLY hope the USAE Breeding Committee reads this thread. There is so much valuable information and great suggestions. Gay's comments that we are sniveling is IMHO just sad. As a breeder herself she should know this isn't a business for cry babies - you won't last more than a year - better yet decades. I am also surprised a USAE H/J Committee member won't acknowlege that the H/J people don't care about breeding - just ribbons, changes and type!! And of course the price is 10x the real value if it's for sale by a BNT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We bred to a worldclass jumper years ago - big bucks out - no foal - long story. We were not alone in our experience - found out later. Now that they are cloning horses maybe that's the solution! Because breeding to some of the Olympic lines is no guarantee of another Olympic horse...or even a foal! We've bred full siblings - one case very much alike - another case - not alike at all. All are great horses - three competitors - one 3 yo - winning on the line at both Hunter & Sporthorse Shows.

Hopefully we can keep the dialogue going. Change can happen if the USAE listens!

poltroon

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
Hey, guys, how about that for getting some of our horses out there. Are there any reliable, responsible, qualified Young Riders riding with well known trainers that we could place well started, but still green, with who could give them quality mileage and exposure??? Maybe that could at least be a start for the 'missing middle layer'.

These kids usually get free board for one horse. Denny, do you think you or other big name riders would be interesting in giving a promising Young Rider one more free stall and training/lessons to help get our young guys started and out there????? We provide the horse, the Trainer provides the stall and training/lessons and the Young Rider works his/her butt off learning to be a good horseman, learns the upper level movements on his/her own horse, and learns how to train a green, but started horse??????? This way our Young Riders would learn how to train horses, not just ride them and increase the pool of competent trainers for young horses in this country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. This is an interesting idea for a network. I know there are kids who want to try, pros who can discount some time and/or who know a kid who needs a chance, and breeders with promising babies out there. Can we come up with some uniquely American way to hook them up and help them pool their resources?

poltroon

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:21 PM

CM Frank: What about a report on breeders? Can we have a listing of all the horses a breeder has produced listed in the DB? Can there be a "top 100" breeders list like the top sires list you're working on?

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:22 PM

Lets work backwards to see if any of us can afford to stay in breeding.

Will riders willing to spend money buy a 4 year old that has been given a base similar to the 100 day test - Training Level Dressage maybe with some First, Jumping around a 2'6" to 3' course, a show or 2. How much will they be willing to spend for that?

Will that cover 5 years of feed for horse (4) and mother (1), percentage of farm expenses for those years, stud fee, salry for person caring for the horses, depreciation on the mare, vet and farrier bills, breaking and training, show costs, etc.?

How much cash do we need to be breeders to carry one that long before making ANY money? How large of a farm to keep 5 years worth of foal crops? If riders are expecting breeders to invest money for that long and take all of the risks during the years that they are young and playful, are they willing to pay enough to make it profitable? Or do they really just want to find the occasional steal from a casual person that just lucked out and bred the mare they already had to "play with a foal" - not expecting any profit, but just for enjoyment/hobby.

If that is the case, then maybe we should not breed in the US or strive to create top horses here. Europe is more than willing to mass produce/feed youngsters.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:48 PM

Good points Fairview - I sadly know of several really good breeders who packed it in over the last couple of years. I thought we were close when we had the Winter From Hell after the 30 year drought last summer.

I hear Gay's comments about going off to show and as I just walked out to throw hay and check water troughs for night turn out - thought about when I worked in Mannhattan, took the train home, rode my horse, competed when I wanted to and where I wanted to, took vacations WITH my husband and let the BARN worry about my horse. What was I thinking when I started to breed horses????

Maybe we should all apply for CEM quarantine status approval and just get our own big rig to pick them up at JFK.

Maybe Ignorance Is Bliss. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

CM Frank

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What about a report on breeders? Can we have a listing of all the horses a breeder has produced listed in the DB? Can there be a "top 100" breeders list like the top sires list you're working on? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poltroon. We can actually pull those reports right now. And, yes, we are working on a top breeders list. As I've said before, the problem with that is the breeders don't take ownership of their products and either a) record (or at least get a free Horse ID) on their foals; or b) let us know when one of theirs crops up. We can always add data.

Currently the only registries which have breeder information regularly entered are the ones under the PHR contracts--NA/WPN, HHAA, BWP and of course the PHR itself. Some of the older AHHA and Selle Francais were also entered as foals, but we have to clean up the old Jockey Club data and assign USAE numbers to those horses.

CM Frank

Jun. 30, 2003, 02:52 PM

Clarification

We also add breeder information when a copy of the horse's registration papers are submitted (for a horse ID or horse Recording) or when the owner provides that info in the space allotted--but by then you are at the mercy of the owner who may or may not think it's important to have your name associated with their horse.

Robby Johnson

Jun. 30, 2003, 03:26 PM

Hello all, I've just returned from Canada where I spent three full days walking around in Ariats and white socks and gray Reebok athletic shorts. It was a horrid site, but I got "up close and personal" with the breeding business - moreso than I ever had before.

I was able to participate/witness the artificial collection of A Fine Romance at the neatest state-of-the-art traveling equine fertility center, where I was welcomed into the van by the vets to see how the semen is processed, and got a look at his swimmers under the microscope.

Interestingly, and unbeknownst to us, a retired Canadian grand prix showjumper mare was in a stall onsite. Her embryos are harvested there and are sold. I was pretty "whelmed" by this. For someone to purchase an embryo from this mare, go through the ET process (not to mention stallion selection), etc., is a HUGE expense! A mare of this quality is certainly proven and great, but couldn't one also be found in Europe at a breeding center, for much less money and heartache?

My wager would be that most of these embryos are being sold to amateurs who are breeding for a personal mount. Not to grand prix development programs, etc.

I personally would rather see an educational program developed to reach out to international riders who *should* care about pedigree/bloodlines, etc. As someone else said, most of them are interested in the "here and now" and not about the "what could be ten years from now."

Denny, I'm sorry you've come under fire on this thread too. Your passion and dedication to this cause are very much appreciated and I am sure those who are so critical are also equally as fervent and dedicated to their programs.

My few days on the farm have certainly taught me that people do this breeding thing for reasons other than personal glory!

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

Heather

Jun. 30, 2003, 05:06 PM

A couple of things to add:

Where were all you breeders when I was 16-25? I love starting young horses, and was always looking for babies to take under my wing--and I don't think I suck too bad, several of mine have gone on to good competitive careers including at the CCI*** level in eventing and FEI in dressage, as well as one that became a big time pony jumper in another country.

But competitively, I've only competed to third level in dressage and preliminary in eventing. When I'd be looking for youngsters to ride, I'd always get asked how high I'd competed, and more often that not, be told that I needed more competitive expereince to ride their baby.

I had one youngster yanked out from underneath me because it didn't win at it's first show. Nevermind they had delivered the creature to me with a serious attitude problem. I had another whose owner called me constantly when the horse was going to show--uh, I put a saddle on its back for the first time 30 days ago, it's not ready to show! I would have happily spent my life as a middle layer, riding babies and showing them at the lower levels, but absolutely no one was interested unles it was a piece of crap, or had a serious attitude/training problem.

I got tired of being hurt, jerked around and taken advantage of, so I went to college, got a real job and am now an amatuer rider who lacks the physical courage to break a shetland pony. But I still like riding and bringing along babies--but now I just get them for myself, and make sure they are well broke first.

If someone had come along with a barnful of nice 3 year olds to start and show I would have been over the moon. Never happened (and I rode in a pretty high profile barn, I wasn't exactly in the middle of nowhere).

Second, I would respectfully submit that while there are heaps and heaps of very knowledgable breeders on these boards, you and your equally knowledgable friends are the exception rather than the norm. I have talked to breeders who couldn't tell you one thing abou their mares pedigrees in terms of perfromance. I had a conversation once where someone laughed about the fact that their first two foals crops were by a terrible stallion and were all crappy mover with pig eyes. Laughed about that. You guys are the good ones. Your friends you see at the seminars, keurings, and other educational activities are also the good ones. However, I don't believe you are the majority. I would buy a youngster from any of you--but I wouldn't make that into a blanket statement that all American breeders are great and would be perfect to find a horse from.

Instead of being angry at people like Denny or myself who have run into the idiots of the breeding world and feel that we don't have enough of you good guys around running things, why not get mad at the morons that create the trouble in the first place? Those are the people that deserve your ire, not somebody who is trying to instigate change by calling a spade a spade. Move the morons out of your ranks, and the argument that American breeders aren;'t knowledgable enough will evaporate like water.

Kinsella

Jun. 30, 2003, 05:18 PM

Hey NYbreeder...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NYbreeder:
1. What U.S. bred, U.S. born, U.S. papered, U.S. registry registered,U.S. owned stallion, with foals on the ground in the U.S., just competed as a member of a European team in Aachen?

2. What U.S. registry had two U.S. bred, U.S. born, U.S. papered, U.S. approved and U.S. owned stallions, with foals on the ground in the U.S., competing in the World Cup finals (not qualifiers)in 2003? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are the answers?

Angela

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Hexel

Jun. 30, 2003, 06:50 PM

Robby your post made me misty eyed. It is not for personal glory.When I walk down to my lower field of mares and foals and am filled with hope. Macaroni and cheese tastes like lobster.

There have been alot of good ideas presented here. For myself I feel the middle ground is my biggest stumbling block.

Denny I appreciate your shedding light on breeding and breeders. Maybe the focus can and will change to looking for the positive in American breeding. This is a good starting place.

Fairview your fair view of things and common sense are appreciated. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

One of the reply's I found condescending. To this all I can think is ...... that what we say or imply about others often says more about us,then them. Offending others does not create an atmosphere for growth,learning and cooperation.

Wasilida

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:37 PM

If anyone wants info on a wonderful young trainer in Virginia who used to start youngsters for a European Olympian, email me. glamorgan@vcu.org

There are so many good points in this thread. I'm just getting started in the breeding thing with 30+ years of riding under my belt in various disciplines. I'm just hoping that my "retirement" years a couple decades from now are blessed with watching good horses that I've bred with riders that appreciate them!

MsHunter

Jun. 30, 2003, 07:58 PM

I have just returned from a trip to Georgia trying a "big eq horse" and have read this thread from where I left off and have a few comments.

#1. I learned I need to learn more about WBs while in Georgia. I asked "who is this one by and out of". Hmm. He is a Vertenberger? LOL
That is a new one on me. I learned something new. He is a G line Hannovarian on the top and a Westphalian on the bottom.

#2. How this effects how well he does his job, I do not know. I am being honest. I can tell you he darn well lifts his legs and jumps the jumps, does a turn on the haunches easily, owns a real counter canter and anyone can get on and ride him. We put our kid aboard, flatted 10 minutes went in the ring and jumped a medal class and got a prize. All that after 14 hours of driving. Can we find that here bred in USA?
Not easily. I love one that can also be lied too and save a butt. Many of ours just CANT.
Do we train them too "perfectly"? Do we know how to implement training programs that ask alot of questions of the horse? Or do we ride him to the ideal distance from day 1? Just more thoughts to ponder.

#3. Denny, I have bred, raised, trained sold nice horses that prominent people have purchased in the show world. They ALWAYS get a name change. Many times I can't blame them, like what was I thinking when I named that horse? LOL.. Herein lies a HUGE problem in my eyes. Name changes are fine, but breeders names get lost in the process. Tim Goguen has a customer who owns one I bred that got prizes in WPB as a 3/4 year old pregreen. I guarantee they didn't know I bred it until someone told them. We need to find a way to fix this problem for good.

#4. Big names don't have time to train, they are on the road working, doing what they do best, riding and competing at the higher levels. I know many BNTs well, they are more than happy to buy from me IF it is ALREADY trained and ready to walk in the ring and jump the jumps and swap it's leads and not be squirly to the jumps and ride like a broke one.

#5. When it does #4, they want it to be priced
STILL under $40K due to EU prices, unless we have also put a show record on it and they feel confident when their owner buys it, it can win.
Can you blame them?

So, we jump our 3 year olds around so we can sell them and make a profit, and then we get yelled at that we started them too soon. I did 3 2 y/os at IHF last year u/s. Not sure how i feel. I am a die hard TB person switched to wb xs. I haven't fully decided if I think the WB can handle what a TB can at 3 years old.

Lastly, I KNOW I AM GOING TO GET FLAMED HERE, we really need to educate our judges on what a SOUND HORSE IS STARTING FROM AN EARLY AGE. If we continue to pin lame ones in hand we surely aren't giving breeders a message on proper horse management or progression to the performance ring. How can we address this?
I am NOT talking about BNJs who clearly "get it right" but the affordable local shows where it nearly always results in disastrous results which completely and totally frustrate owners from wanting to breed and campaign youngsters.
Even babies need to be properly handled to stay sound.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

MsHunter

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:00 PM

OOPS
Jane Ervin
New Egypt NJ

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

MsHunter

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:08 PM

Also a disclaimer about the soundness. This is observations made over many years not directed at any particular owner, breeder or handler.
Let's make sure we watch them walk and jog on a straight line for more than 2 seconds and take notice to movement and soundness, probably 2 of the most important things to be judged, rather than ONLY their appearance from the side. This one wants to send me over the edge and I can predict it with 100% accuracy after reading a prize list. Why do we have judges who have never handled, trained, or bred one before?

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Saddlebag

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:21 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I had no idea that my post would cause all those comments. My intent was certainly not to attack anyone, but to comment on the fact that because most American Breeders are not also competitors in the "Open" arena, and have to pay a trainer to prepare a horse for competition, the climate for breeding is very expensive and most Breeders don't take that road, opting again to compete in Breed shows and Evaluations. The problem with this, as I see it, is that Trainers and Riders don't even look to our American Breeders for their young horses. Why would you when you can see 500 horses in a weekend, and see them compete in the show ring. All we promise is a lofty pedigree and perhaps a relative or two that was a famous competitor. And the Trainers just don't care about that at all! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What I would like to see happen is for more Trainers to get involved in the Breeding industry and to develop young horses and bring them along to be shown and sold. Yes it is expensive, but nothingcan match the costs of Stud Fees, Vet Bills, and other associated costs! I just think the show ring is a better way to market than glossy ads and fancy Evaliations. A good horse is one that can win in top performance competition...not standing on the line!

As to my "hiding"behind an alias. Don't be silly...I use the moniker, Saddlebag, because I think it is funny, and accurately describes a 62 year old who still loves to fly aroun the show ring. My enail address is available in my profile, and anyone who wants to write me or call me, can. As for my "real" name, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I am Gay Talmey of Cottonwood, California. Cottonwood is a tiny town 150 miles north of Sacramento and near Redding. I moved there from the Bay Area 9 years ago because I couldn't afford to have a breeding farm business and own multiple horses where I had to pay expensive board on them. And, I think (having grown up in the Midwest) that pastures should be green and there should be lots of shade trees. So, now I am fortunate to share my dream farm with my husband, and being a professional trainer, I built a large arena with good footing and all types of jumps and equipment needed to prepare horses properly. The training business up here is very small, and hardly profitable, but I make money by Officiating at horse shows as a Judge, Steward and Course Designer. That and occasional horse sales is what we live on...not a bountiful trust fund! But the fact that I am a competent rider, a wise trainer and I understand the "system" makes it possible for me to produce nice horses each year that are legitimate and useful show horses. Is that so awful? At the Woodside shows last week(s), we won a couple of classes with one horse, and 3 or 4 ribbons with the other. I am primarily in "training mode" when I show, as I am way over trying to outrun a kid on a hairy pony in a jumpoff, and it isn't a good training devise anyway. One of my students was Short Stirrup Champion on one of my school horses, an older TB mare who I got on a board bill, and who is only marginally sound, but she is fat, happy and does her job cheerfully, and the child is learning a ton on her. Another student won a Children's Jumper Table II sec.1 class, beating her competitors by about 8 seconds. She rides an Kentucky bred TB who retired sound from the track, and has proved to be a superstar for his owner. His sale price was just barely in the 5 figures.

I don't think it is Rocket Science to see that somebody has to train these horses that we produce, and so far, I don't see the Breeders doing it. I believe that Denny is saying roughly the same thing, and I really don't believe that our intent is to humiliate or to act superior. I would just like to see, American-breds at the top of the game, and so far, that isn't being accomplished by our Breeding industry.

Hexel

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:49 PM

Ms Hunter Now you know better then I, that these fractious well fed slick babies do not always find a quiet straight lined jog to their liking. We both have had our share of the happy bouncing babies with thoughts of oh just let me rip and tear a little. How about the NJ yrlg. futurity last yr. Not to many got away without stretched arms that day. Oh that piece of paper blowing outside the ring is going to eat me alive. It was a tough day for many. Babies will be babies with shorter then average attention spans.

ise@ssl

Jun. 30, 2003, 08:53 PM

Gay most of the Breeders I met in Europe were not Competitors either - they had either young family members ride or Bereiters. I just don't understand how you think we can be running breeding operations and physically riding the horses at competitions. Would I like to ride again competitively - sure - but there are only 24 hours in a day! And I think it's foolish to not be in training (horse & rider) to compete.

To think that we can be up at 5:30 AM in the summer to bring in horses, help with some of the barn work, palpate mares, run back & forth to the office to fax semen orders or return equitainers (or worse run to the airport), do our paperwork, repair or install new fencing, answer the phone to have the farmer tell us they are bringing over 4 wagons of hay (of course it's cheaper if you buy it right from the field - so how can we say no), try to get help to unload and stack, groom horses, work with the youngsters in hand or ground work, drive over to see the 8 yo in training/competition (three day - not a discipine I can ride), try to plan the clinic/show schedule for the 8 yo - trailer him there and back, oops! gotta fill water troughs - water's too warm, turn out 20 horses when the sun starts to set so the bugs aren't too bad (or later in the dark because we had a storm) - oh yes! my husband...he needs to be fed because he's NOT a horseperson but God bless him he lives with this every day. To load a horse, look presentable and show them is just not possible. Hiring people (well payroll is a paperwork nightmare) - if you pay lumpsum then you have to find someone who will do it & come to the farm to ride or board out for $700 per month. This isn't whining or sniveling it's the reality that I and every medium sized breeder I know faces every day.

We take our youngsters to local shows to walk them around and let them be seen and experience the show grounds. We have many big "A" hunter shows in this area - but few people ever want an really green horse. I wish I had a nickel for every H/J person who calls on a 3 yo for sale and wants to know how high they are jumping and that never ending question "but does he have his changes?" We can't push WB's at 3 like that unless we want a horse with major bone issues by 4.

There are fewer and fewer "barn rats" - kids like I was who grew up in the suburbs but were obsessed with horses. I'd get on anything when I was younger. I'm in a very rural area in NJ - hundreds of preserved acres and almost wall to wall horse farms and we all face the same reality. Kids don't want to work - the ones that ride are mostly "sponsored" by their parents. The pony club kids are usually so busy with all their activities they can't have a regular work schedule and quite honestly we can't take the liability issues of having kids handle broodmares and foals or worse young colts.

A friend of mine in California did what you recommend with his young imported stallion and other young horses - paid a trainer to "get them out there". These are very high quality horses and they competed (and are) competing successfully. The ones he's sold don't even cover a teeny bit of the dough he's shelled out and I have to say that if he sold them all right now - paid the trainer & the commission she expects - he'll be in a big financial hole. It scares me to see what's happened to him. So I just can't buy into this "get them out there competing where the big riders can see them". Where would the money come from? One horse ...maybe, but we have several horses for sale righ now - actually quite a few youngsters. If none sell before 3 then I have to start them and you need at least 90 days training under saddle before you let anyone driving up the driveway on them. Even then it's a frightening experience to see how people represent their riding ability and how well they actually ride!! And on green horses it's sometimes very troubling that they might actually undo all of the training!!!!

I just don't see how a full time breeder (without a big farm & lots of dough) can be out there competing at big shows to get a show record on a horse. HOw do they get it all done without a large staff of people?

Hexel

Jun. 30, 2003, 09:13 PM

ise@ssl, ditto, ditto, ditto

Ashemont

Jun. 30, 2003, 09:21 PM

Oh Ilona, can I relate! Saddlebag I think you miss the point - we are BREEDERS. We produce nice babies. But unless our pockets are deep (and mine aren't) we can't afford to break, train and campaign our horses. If you can do it all my hat's off to you, but I can't. I may be two years younger than you but I'm a polio survivor - I'm lucky to still be able to ride much less start a youngster!

As far as Premiums and wins at breed shows... that's how we can see how our babies stack up and it gives us a chance to get our kids out before they are old enough to be backed. I think they are both good indications if a breeding program is going in the right direction or not. If we have to wait until our horses are successful in the show ring that puts us too far down the road. So please don't knock our Keurings and breed shows; they provide us with timely and valuable feedback. And if we want our babies registered the Keurings are not optional.

We have rarely had a youngster that has not sold by 2. Those few that didn't sell by that age cost so much to raise and train that we lost money on them - and we didn't ever get them to more than one or two shows, if that. Most of the breeders I know are of the small variety. We produce a good product but usually don't have the wherewithall to break, train and show. Just producing a good horse these days is expensive.

We need the next step in the chain. Training farms, like they have in Europe, who will buy these promising youngsters for a fair price and invest the training in them. But then we would still need to get American riders to buy American.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Robby Johnson

Jul. 1, 2003, 02:24 AM

How a small breeding farm differs from a small riding farm?

What a great topic for someone to bring up!

My experience was that the work never stops! At a riding farm you do the a.m. chores, then have all day to ride, until it's time to do the p.m. chores.

At a breeding farm you have the scheduled chores, sure. But then you have all of the other plethora of things that pop up during the day (mare owners calling to say they need semen "now," and having vets out to u/s a mare suspected to be in foal). Hell, just the simple act of turning out a mare with a foal at foot becomes a real chore.

And it seems to me that the best way to revolve in the business is to sell the offspring as foals. Beyond that you are stuck with having to prove them and you could suddenly have them around until they're 4.

If we know it's the amateur who is breeding and buying most of what is produced in N. America, that's who should be targeted and appealed to as a customer. Trying to market your homebred along to an international level is somewhat like an artisan jewelry designer trying to get Madonna to wear his bracelet to the Grammys.

But I still think Americans like to be told what to think ("agenda setting theory" as it's called inside communication education) and for that a simple 1-2-3 brochure would be a good addition to the marketing repertoire.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

ise@ssl

Jul. 1, 2003, 03:19 AM

Robby - what a wonderful comment "Americans want to be told what to think". How true when we think about it. One BNT or Big Named Rider endorses a product or training method and WOOOOSH everyone starts doing it. They stand in front of a trailer and horse people run out to buy it. They say American Breeders don't know what they are doing and WOOOSH they fly off to Europe.

I really, really have to believe that Denny and some people here have not been at WB inspections of late. Our Judge always goes through the scoring on the mares and foals out loud to the audience. He's always willing to explain the scoring and always willing to speak to the mare owner about the type of stallion they should select to improve the mare. Denny says we don't know how to evaluate the horse - well ALL of the breeding seminars have horses of varying age, type, breed to evaluate. The participants score the horses and then compare with the person giving the seminar and then the discussion begins on what they saw and the audience didn't. Gay feels it's a waste of time - just ride them at shows.

The Germans have analysed what breeds through and what doesn't as far as probability. Most of the breeders I know have either heard these lectures or read the many articles in our various newsletters on the topic. We KNOW Jumping ability has a very high percentage of being passed on. We know that a mare with slightly light bone in the leg is not an issue because it usually can be bred out in one generation. On and On.

We know which stallions are "flukes" as far as competitive careers and that few of their foals go on to be top competitors unless the mare line is just as superior. But when BNT's are on those videotapes saying "he's the greatest" ...well breeders new to the business send off that booking fee. And we also know through out grapevine which stallions are almost IMPOSSIBLE as far as temperament (world class athletes) but you have to be an Olympian to ride them. We, as breeders in North America, cannot breed to these stallions - the foals are often so difficult that the number of people who could handle them undersaddle are professionals who like this sort of challenge. They are few and far between anymore - they don't want to risk injury or put the extra time in to deal with the issues unless they have someone to buy the horse who has deep pockets.

It might be nice to have a "Between the Rounds" forum presenting the Sporthorse World's opinion of the progress we've made. I also think the Breeding Committee should subscribe to the newsletters from the various registries - there are pages of announcements of where the horses produced by our Breeders are competing - in all disciplines.

Again I feel there's a huge disconnect here between the USAE Breeding Committee and the Breeding community. Perhaps they Committee should take the time to GO to inspections, GO to 100 Day testings, GO to stallion approvals or Mare Performance Tests and open the discussion to the many people who attends these events and get their feedback. They are all over the country and the committee members wouldn't even have to travel that far. It should actually be a requirement - as I know some members have been to them but I'm not sure about others when I read the article Denny wrote.

And Gay I cannot believe you feel comfortable making this WOOOSH statement that Breeders aren't training young horses! Hey! We're the ones that pull them out, put on the first halter, train them to walk on a leadline, stand in a groomng area, listen to voice commands, stop biting or rearing or jumping on humans. We teach them to get on trailers, to stand for shots or worming or the farrier without dragging everyone up and down the barn aisle. We are the ones walking them back and forth to the fields when it's windy and tarp on the shavings blows up and our right arm is close to being removing from the shoulder socket. We usually are the first ones to expose them to clippers, vacuums, bridles, saddles, blankets, wheelbarrows in their stall while we do the mucking and standing up for photos for sales flyers. Sad that we understand THAT'S TRAINING - and a huge and critical part of it. By the time we turn them over - backed or not - they have their head screwed on straight and know humans are the Alpha, training is part of their life and with positive reinforcement from us they will have a positive experience.

If there are longtime professional breeders out there who are not laying this foundation - I don't know them. Who would buy their youngsters? How would they get them off the farm?

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 01, 2003 at 07:35 AM.]

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 1, 2003, 05:08 AM

So many EXCELLENT posts now. Reality of running a BREEDING farm. We just can't do both. If we can't do both, should be do what we can? Or just not breed at all?

People in this country think we are not producing top quality because they have spent so much time going from farm to farm looking at youngsters that have been bred by people that breed on a whim.

Those people usually have bigger names than the breeders. They are riders that people recognize their name from the show ring that just happened to have a mare, that they bred to a popular stallion. MANY times "big name mares" are wonderful competitors, but may be lousy broodmares. Their conformation may work for them, but it was a fluke. But everyone knows their name, and when trainers go looking for prospects for their clients, that is who they go look at, NOT the "unknown breeders". After all, many times they are their friends. They discuss the "incredible" foal they have at home out of the "super" mare at the big show while watching their horse ride a course. So trainer goes looking 2 states away and is dissappointed. These show riders are not knowledgeable about breeding/bloodlines, they just bred.

Next week, same scenario at the in-gate. Trainer now goes in a different direction to see another young (overpriced "prospect") - again not happy with what he sees, draws conclusion that we just are not producing nice horses in this country because of course, he has seen the best, hasn't he?

Are these the "breeders" Denny has been looking at?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Tiki

Jul. 1, 2003, 05:25 AM

What Ilona said!!! Plus, kids on bicycles, umbrellas, hay truckss coming in to the field -"Hey, look Mum, lunch is coming" instead of running in a mad panic.

MsHunter, I was a little stunned when I read the part about people winning with lame horses and foals on the line until I realized you were probably talking about hunter breeding shows. There, as I have seen them, the horses are all brought in at once and stood up in a line for the judge to look at. They were only 'jogged' for a couple of seconds on the way out of the ring, and yes, I did see a lame horse win at Upperville that way. Have you ever been to a sport horse breeding class? Our horses are shown individually on the triangle. You stand them up for inspection for conformation and type and then you walk them on the small triangle. It is a pretty stiff walk, asking them to really stride out. You TROT, not jog, them on the big triangle, and trust me, you have to be able to run your a$$ off in order to even place. These horses can really move out - even the babies. I flat out can not possibly in my wildest dreams run fast enough or long enough to show off a horse properly. I do the ground work at home, teaching the youngster to trot on command, without running me over or knocking me down or spinning wildly around me, I teach it to make proper inside turns at the corners of the triangle, and then I turn the horse over to a professional handler who can run like the wind. There is NO WAY a lame horse could ever possibly pin at a sport horse breeding show. It just doesn't happen.

We know the BNTs don't have the desire or the time to start youngsters. We have trainers to start them for 60-90 days. Again, what we need is the middle layer. I'm really beginning to think that my idea of cost sharing with a trainer and a (competent) Young Rider might work really well. Most trainers will give a YR either a free stall or a stall at half board. If we could get our horses out as a second horse with a YR, with the training supervised by the trainer, and a second free or half board stall from the trainer we could have found the 'missing middle layer'.

We will need some help getting this program off the ground. I'm basically one of those 'nobody' breeders so that if I send letters to some good trainers they'll probably throw it in the trash. Jeanne suggested that USAEq get involved, I'm asking that Denny or any other trainers reading all this stuff get involved and tell us if you think it will work. I think it is a tremendous idea for developing a pool of really good riders who also learn to train at the same time, so that we WILL develop a pool of Young Horse Trainers in this country.

Sheila

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

frugalannie

Jul. 1, 2003, 05:34 AM

I'm a Very Small Time breeder, and trying to learn as much as I can. This and many other threads have helped a great deal, but I will never have the degree of knowledge that those of you posting here do.

So having said, I do want to emphasize a point that was made earlier. And I'm responding as having been a (performance) horse buyer as well as breeder. There is one simple fact that differentiates the horse industry in the US from Europe and that is the size of the countries. As a previous poster mentioned, a buyer can go to Europe, to one of the big auctions or maybe just on a buying trip, and see dozens of horses within their specs in a concentrated period of time. And many of them will be "on the farm" with the breeder showing off sire, dam, sibs etc.. This country is just to big for that. There is no way a buyer can wander the two coasts and everything in between within a concentrated period.

There are two solutions that come to mind. One is using technology for at least an introduction to the horses. By this I mean websites and videos. But as another poster said above, what people think are adequate, representational videos of their horses can be really useless to the serious buyer, so care must be taken in producing them. I don't mean they have to be professionally produced, either. Just organized logically, showing the sire, dam and sibs if you can, conformation shots, moving in hand and under saddle (if applicable). Oh heck. You all know what you'd want to see, and I'm sure that any one of you would provide this stuff, but there are people out there who don't.

I loved the idea of regional training centers as destinations in their own right. I don't know if it's the least bit doable. But could an "event" be scheduled that might fulfill some of the same needs? Not a show, per se, but rather a showcase for young sport horses, with breeding and training seminars, using the equine participants as examples, and getting the big names out to show their expertise to an audience of (one hopes) amateurs, young riders, interested kids, etc. I have been fascinated by the response David O'Connor gets when he demonstrates some of the ground work he (and Pat Parelli) does with youngsters. People love to watch it. It would be great to hear three or four pros talk about different approaches to backing babies and watch them do it. Events such as this might be scheduled in each region of the country on a revolving basis. And if they already exist, and I'm unaware if them, I apologize. But that would be part of the problem, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm out to lunch, but as a buyer, I would find it interesting to go to such an event because of the concentration of horses presented. Over the course of a weekend, I'd have the chance to see lots of youngsters being handled in an unfamiliar environment, be able to compare my favorites, learn about their breeding, see then up close.

I think it might also serve to pique the interest of the "middle layer" of riders/trainers, if they have such a showcase for their abilities as well, and have the chance to learn new and different things from other trainers.

Finally, as was also noted above, not all breeders are trying to breed for the top echelon. Some, like me, are really trying to breed nice, sound, sane, athletic, good equine citizens (although I won't kick a special baby out of my barn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) who will make an amateur rider very happy.

Anne Hezzey
Kinsman House Farm
kinsman.house@verizon.net

Allyn M

Jul. 1, 2003, 05:40 AM

Everyone seems on the right track here and we have been over this ground before, Is there any way to access the thread " Are North American breeders missing the mark ?" We discussed this completely and came to some pretty great conclusions.
One of the suggestions that I would like to make is that we start a fund that Cheryl and Denny could oversee that would go into an accumulating trust that would give huge prizes to classes in all disciplines that showed only American bred horses. We could do this at designated shows or could change the Young Horse Championships ( with eye popping prizes) to American bred only. The only way we would get that done would be to get every breeder to donate a stud fee or have an auction ( As in auction for Aiden )and make sure that it was geared toward American breds.

The regional training center with auctions to me is the best idea. It will take a long time to get that idea off the ground because the American mentality is " only unsalable horses go to auction" The Europeans and Track people do very well by their auctions and that is because horses are selected for those auctions for quality.The Lexington Kentucky people live and breathe through the yearling auctions . People in the track business think I am crazy for holding on to horses beyond their yearling year.Even the State of Indiana has a great breeder incentive program .If we study on this long enough I'm sure we'll come up with some great ideas ,but we will need the capital to back them up.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 1, 2003, 05:51 AM

Here is the thread, "Are North American Breeders Missing the Mark"

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=7936071421&p=1

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Jul. 01, 2003 at 10:07 AM.]

Pony1

Jul. 1, 2003, 06:44 AM

I really don't think we as breeders can answer the question of why the BNT and BNR are not buying american bred horses - we need to ask them. Can the Breeding committee help us get the question asked?? and the answers published so we will all know?

One thing that I keep reading and that is sifting to the top is that there are different levels of breeders here in the US - and if the riders are all ways looking for a "deal" and happen to find the "deal" at a mediocre breeders farm and then that "deal" does not turn out to be a quality prospect - who can really be suprised - I am of the opinion that most times you get what you pay for - if it seems too good to be true - it probably is -

I still think it is the BNT and BNR's that need the education much more than the breeders - I am 50+ and am still learning - and am willing to be taught, I think the same thing goes for the BNT's and the BNR's. Surely the likes of Hill top and Iron Spring, Cismont Manor, and Nokomis, the Firestones (just to name a few here on the east coast) can be painted with the "you breeders need more education brush!" in order to be successful -

Statistically if you are breeding to produce the next olympic champion you are breeding to a very minute, miniscule market - most breeders I know are breeding to support the thousands of competitors that show at the "A" shows, and also the local level. Here in VA if you want to win locally you need a pretty darn good animal - our schooling shows are filled with lots of professional riders and trainers - the AO doesn't have a chance of being competitive unless they are riding a really good horse or pony - thats a pretty big market and we need lots of good breeders to fill that niche much more than the few Olympic and International competitors.

I want to mention again my earlier suggestion of an American Bred Division with a HUGE Sponsor that USAE should be able to help us with - I mean with patriotism and "Buy American" being in the fore these days surely we could get an AMERICAN sponsor - These Divisions could start at the Zone Level for year end awards - I would be willing to help with any part of this effort - just let me know and I will happlily be on the committee - we should ensure that the fund would pay back some percentage to the breeders with the horses placing at year end. Or how about this - if the USAE wants to help how about putting a space on either the membership form where you could donate a certain amount of money to go to the breeders incentive fund? There are lots of options I will commit now to help just show me where to sign up?

- There have been lots of great ideas and suggestions posted here with lots of people signing their names - is Denny still reading and hopefully taking notes? I would like to ask Denny or CM to capture all the ideas suggested in this thread and send them on to the Breeding Committee for consideration - or let us know if they are not interested in doing this, That weay we can start building a list of the points we've made and get the job done ourselves - this is a great forum - but me thinks we may be preaching to the choir - we need to get these ideas in front of the committee who makes the rules and who is supposed to be working FOR US!!

Gail Forrest
GaLa Farm
Jeffersonton, VA

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Home of the first American Riding Pony bred and born in the USA - GaLa's Stardust Legacy - www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)
"Proud Member of the Hunter Breeding Clique"

[This message was edited by Pony1 on Jul. 01, 2003 at 10:54 AM.]

MsHunter

Jul. 1, 2003, 06:46 AM

Hexel, point well taken, I meant more the obvious where we see some not follow directions about the straight line for proper evaluation of horses movement. I think judges need to give a baby the time to "behave" to be evaluated, but also pay creedence to the ones who are behaved and not following directions to be properly judged http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Gay, I am with what your saying. I have many performance customers and when we went on our big eq horse search it wasn't about "who is it by, or is it American bred", it was about, how well does it do it's job.

We agree that it is easy to sell horses showing and winning in the performance ring. What I have been trying to say is that there are some good deals to be had if people are willing to take a chance on a green prospect. It happens, I have sold some, but more often than not they want them jumping around at least a small course and swapping to have an idea of what they will make up to be.

The hunter breeding to me is not a means to an end. All the ones I show ( I am careful about what I will show for people) is and or has been started u/s, shown u/s, some at the jumps and has moved forward. It is just a DARN slow process. I think the line is invaluable for shipping, clipping, bathing, braiding, and the overall atmosphere and I also believe the horses get "known" somewhat before starting their performance careers.

Many do not get to the performance ring, but many also do. I have also seen many get ruined whether they were american or EU bred, so that just plain old happens. There is also things like colic, EPM, LYMES, Ulcers, and soundness issues that get in the way of all of our show horses, which again is just the nature of the sport.

What makes me irate about all of this is that it sounds like some professionals think breeding is worthless unless they all make it to the Olympics, and I have to tell you like it or not, I know you know I am right about this point IS "MOST WIND UP IN THE 3FT RING" it is where our biggest customer demand is...........

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

Hexel

Jul. 1, 2003, 07:30 AM

MS Hunter well said.

Maybe the Hunters should adopt a more intensive evaluation of movement. Also I have had them jog nicely over and over at home. They are in an atmosphere of tractors, mowers, weed wackers,hay wagons bringing hay and do not blink an eye. But just take them to a show with vendors,other young horses bouncing around,etc etc some will get a little up. Some days at some shows they jog well, at others after hanging out on the trailer for hr's waiting for a delayed start time they have had enough.

We should be very careful about labeling a horse lame. Do we know all the circumstances? Did they kick in the trailer on the way to the show at a fly and bang the ramp. Did they get silly on the way to the ring and stomp a stone. Did they take a mistep or tromp a stone in their jog. If the same horse is truly lame time after time that is one thing but we should be careful unless we are in the know. These things in the horse world can be very damaging to a horse and those involved. I'm sorry this is off subject but something that makes me sad to the core when this side of human nature takes over.

I love the American Bred ideas,how better to focus attention on them.

I do beleive it is very difficult to run both a breeding and training operation for most and be able to keep it all running smoothly. That is not to say there are not those that can.

eurofoal

Jul. 1, 2003, 07:46 AM

MS Hunter, I agree when you say most of the horses end up in the 3 ft division-- ie: the middle ground. I also agree with many points made by Ilona, Denny and Ashmont-- lots of great input here.

Most of the horses (By stallion Gray Sulphur, a tb) that I have bred have done well for the person who bought/loves them. Am I happy with what happened after I sold them? Well, yes and no. Some of the nice ones got injured, or fell into the hands of an a/a that really never brought them along. I'd say I lost tabs on at least half of them. BUT-- a very nice portion of them are in big barns here in So Calif, being shown, winning at Indio, winning awards, living happily ever after. Many have name changes. I was at the vets the other day, mentioned I had stood Gray Sulphur, the girl knew a horse in her barn sired by him! I doubt she could recite much of a pedigree, but she knew that much. Point being-- the horses I bred are out there, being shown happily, with some knowledge of their bloodlines by average a/a riders.

NOBODY I know would NOT ride a good horse to the top just because it's bred domestically. How silly-- good, sound horses are few and far between. The issue, as has been drummed out to a dozen different tunes, is that they are hard to market before being broke, and it's hard to make a profit on the ones that have been going u/s.

But, yes, I think on the average, there's a big gap in the RIDERS knowledge of bloodlines, and many of those RIDERS become breeders, and infact, may make up the majority of breeders producing foals. I have a dear friend, a trainer, that's breeding a mare I would NEVER waste money on... egads, one foal on the ground with a ewe-neck and she's going to do it again-- she doesn't seem to see the flaw for as severe as it is... I'm thinking "oh my gosh, that thing will NEVER bend at the poll.." But, she owns the mare, it's a broodmare, she's breeding it. If she culls, she's out of the breeding thing all together.

Next point-- breeders are in a terrific postion to mentor students. 4-Hers, Pony Clubbers, etc. All you need is one! Do you offer to bring in students? ARe you forgiving of their youth and inexperience? Have lawsuit risks scared you off? While many are too green for a breeding farm, there are many that have miles under thier belt and just beg for more riding/horse time.

And, lastly, why do we not cultivate the "agent" thing here in the US? This is another middle ground thing that is missing here. An agent that would drive clients around for a 10% comission would be welcome here any day of the week. Go ahead, sell this horse for me!!! In Europe, I was driven around for HOURS to see a few horses here and a few more there. It tallyed up to a lot of horses, but not like I saw more than 6 or 7 of varying prices at any one place. That could be done here in So Calif.

I'm here in So. Calif-- there's lots of horses within the magical 1-3 hr radius. If someone would pack up a client and show up here-- I'll offer them cold ice tea and a nice afternoon. As Ilona said, when you start to talk multiples (4 3yr olds, 7 2yr olds, etc) it's too hard to do much with them. All of the agents that I know want the horses on site, or exclusive listings. Where are those professionals with lots of contacts showing horses around? Or, are the horses priced at a farm sale price, no room for 10%, with no incentive to anyone to sell it?

Just some more ideas to kick around...

Jill Pettigrew
www.eurofoal.com (http://www.eurofoal.com)

eurofoal

Jul. 1, 2003, 07:54 AM

[QUOTE]
NOBODY I know would NOT ride a good horse to the top just because it's bred domestically. How silly-- good, sound horses are few and far between.

Oops, that "good, sound horses" thing came out quite badly in the reading!!! I meant that more along the line that few horses on the planet are going to the Olympics.

I am of the belief that US breeders (esp the ones that consider themselves professions, not necessarily the backyard, casual breeders) are producing top horses.
Jill

JDufort

Jul. 1, 2003, 08:14 AM

Performance matters, if you are breeding Sport Horses, no less than if you're a TB breeder aiming at the racing industry.

Imagine 20-30 years from now, when we've forgotton the pain it took to get the PHR unified and tracking all USAEq-sanctioned events in all disciplines at all levels, and we have the beginnings of the equivalent of the Jockey Club database.

Imagine if we had all Sport Horse off-spring registered, and could see the outstanding horses versus the total pool, as happens with the JC database.

Until then, we are using a microscope to examine the universe.

BTW, this spring we invested in a green 4 year old "out of the field". His sire is Lion King, and his damsire is Stream Lion, who also produced Eagle Lion, Regent Lion, and Pirate Lion - all of whom have had success at the CCI**** level. His dam has also produced a stakes winning filly. Did we pay more because we understood all this - absolutely yes! Will he make it to NAYRC this year or next - no. But we'll have fun bringing him along, and who knows - he may be the next famous guy in the family.

Support the PHR. Get the best young ones started with the best. Get American international riders on American bred horses. Breed examinations and awards are just the start - one quality control process, if you will. For a Performance Horse breeding industry to thrive, we have to understand how to breed for performance results.

mbp

Jul. 1, 2003, 09:41 AM

In connection with the middle layer, I think Poltroon made a good point about the lack of opportunities with new riders. Lesson barns just don’t seem to exist to the same extent they once did. Those barns did generate a lot of the die hard, non horse owing fanatical kid riders who became the ones who could ride anything and were happy to start someone’s horse. I think a lot of that goes to the infrastructure issues too. Ilona makes a reference too in another thread to the need for more “regular” barns, not showcase premiere barns, but working facilities.

It is going to take some time to try to re-establish a middle layer. I am going to throw out some possible things, short of reestablishing a middle layer, that I think might be able to be done now, or over a very short haul, to help. Some may be really bad ideas – won’t hurt my feelings if that is pointed out to me, even sharply. But sometimes kicking around bad ideas gives a good idea a chance to be raised. Most of these would be USAEq or other, but some are breeder things.

BTW - one last point on domestic and overseas sales. It is my experience so far that vets overseas are much more pragmatic and more likely to "pass" a horse than a local vet. Even when the buyer then runs things by their local vet too, they do it with the mindset that the horse has already "passed" and when their vet says the horse does have xyz changes, but, as the vet in Germany (or wherever) says, they may not be a performance issue - but they may; the rider hears - oh, the vets agree it probably won't be a problem. Here, the local vet raises the issue, says Well, this might be a problem - and the rider hears - PROBLEM. JMO - but I think that is a small factor also.

1. Ask shows, when they send in their results, to designate a few high profile classes. USAEq will, as results are put in, send that show back the 4-generation pedigree of the winner of those designated classes. Shows would then be encouraged in next years program to include, for these classes, the name and pedigree of the prior year’s winner. Ok – I know we say the riders don’t care and don’t want to know – but I have hung with enough riders to believe that, over time, they will start looking at those pedigrees while they are killing time at the shows, and start thinking – hey, isn’t my trainer’s horse (or my horse, or the horse that won the other designated class) related to him? One reason I think riders aren’t as interested is we make it so dang hard. They don’t get pedigree info “given” to them, they are expected to search it out. They are expected to learn about 100 day tests and registries and all kinds of things they don’t care about. Start out with spoon feeding them things they do care about and let them develop a taste for it.

2. For the Hunters (not my area, so I may be way off base here) - it seems USAEq has a lot of discretion to designate what an A show needs to be an A show. Not an issue for dressage so much – but for the hunters, require that all A shows offer at least 2 US bred only divisions, with minimum prize money of $500/division. The 2 divisions and 500 are completely arbitrary numbers I pulled from between my toes – but substitute something reasonable. If the shows complain it is too much and the breeders complain it is not enough – then it should be about right.

3. Junior/YR Sporthorse Judging Teams. Take a lesson from 4-H and their youth judging teams and work with the YR programs to offer Sporthorse Judging Team competition – it can be combined with a written too on breeding maybe? In any event, work with the appropriate organizations to get this going and get some sponsorship for some prizes/awards. This would be something that even the kids who can’t afford the 100,000 PSG horse or the 150,000 Jr Jumper could do on a competitive basis. Heck, some European countries might get involved and we might be able to have some international competition aspects for them. It is also usually easier to get sponsorships for things involving “kids” and since they won’t have “horse costs” it is a cheaper thing. Having people watch and participate in helping the kids prep (I think the 4-H teams usually get together and then have to give verbal analysis of why they gave the scores and placings they did) etc. might build some enthusiasm? It would, IMO, definitely help with the “we need better horsemen” part as they learn to analyze conformation and distinguish blemishes and unsoundnesses, etc.

4. USAEq recognition for Homebreds that would not be too pricey or hard to implement. E.g., USDF/Cosequin series – see if you can work with USDF to offer a neck ribbon to the highest placed homebred at each competition. Send a banner too so they can have a photo op. A few banners (they can be re-shipped to other shows on other dates so you only need a few) and neck sashes are not that pricey. Then do a guaranteed article in the USAEq mag on the homebred from the USDF/Cosequin series. Get a volunteer at each site to interview with certain standardized questions and get releases/copies of the pics and do the article. For three or four star Events, or for GP or other classes at CDIs etc. do a similar things – banner and neck sash for highest placed homebred for selected classes. Or a saddle pad with a special insignia. If you have to, go to the NAFSH and see if they cant kick in 4-500 to help with this approach.

5. Prepare a survey for the national sporthorse registries and get their feedback on the issues, problems etc. facing national breeders and see what is coming up repetitively.

6. Aggressively help with the simplification process. USAEq has a lot of clout. Breeders now have USDF numbers, USAEq numbers, registry numbers, local org numbers, ARGH!!!! USAEq can intervene and implement a REQUIRED PROCESS where all these horses end up with one number. I know this is “in the works” but it seems to be based on voluntary agreements with registries (but I’m not in the loop so may have this completely wrong). If so, and you wait for registries to come to you and voluntarily pony up, it will take forever. Be tough – figure a system that would/should work and say “this is it”. Anything that makes it simpler for breeders and, almost more importantly, riders, will mean better compliance and information.

7. Along the same lines – come up with a Sporthorse Breeders pamphlet that explains all the organizations, what they do, what they don’t do, the homebreds programs if we get them going, the Cosequin Series, registrations, the various registries and contact, terminology, maybe a summary of items to examine in a breeding contract (explain booking fees, shipping fees, collection fees, container deposits, required mare vet exams, etc. so fewer newby breeders are blindsided?), popular web forums.

8. Include in the USAEq article submission or inhouse article completion guidelines the requirements for breeder and pedigree info.

9. Compile or encourage USDF to compile an article from some top trainers asking what they look for in BLOODLINES.

10. Prepare a trainer survey on why the go to Europe to buy. It is still mo that this has to do with the fact that we are using a lot of European trainers and even European riders who are naturalized and we are sending our riders to Europe – so I think the comfort level is there. There may be some nefarious things, but I am pretty naïve there and just ascribe it to familiarity. Ask them what it would take to keep them looking here. The trainer support program mentioned in earlier parts of the thread sounds like a good idea to explore.

11. Do some sales surveys so breeders have the info. I understand a lot of the eventing points, but, truthfully, how many event riders buy a started 3 yo for 20,000? It is unrealistic to tell someone to expend time, effort, knowledge etc. to breed to a supply the pyramid if the $ are not there. Maybe they are, but in this area it is notorious that more inexpensive OTTBs, paints, etc. are used for lower levels (think 3-5,000 or less) and supply the bulk of the event population. I think breeders need realistic sales info and we have no good auction sources here, so how can we generate this? Maybe with registration changes it can be supplied anonymously? Maybe via a survey – although IMO (don’t hate me) some breeders would fib. But still, it begins to give a baseline. Desperately needed baseline. Right now, it is all anecdotal.

12. Infrastructure, seminars etc – put ‘em on the list and have someone look into 1 year, 5year, etc. plans. There has got to be a way to get infrastructure in place. I really think that gmo type local breeding organizations would help.

13. Regional exhibitions – I still think these are a good idea for breeders to work on.

14. 5 & 6 yo Championships. We have confusion over the rules and a lot of owners that don’t want to send the horses to Europe. What about establishing a North American 5 & 6 yo championships, with Mexico and Canada, for North American breds? Couldn’t all the money that would go to supporting sending entries to Europe generate something nice here? Maybe not? Maybe we need to go to Europe with our youngsters, I don’t know. I do understand it for seasoning competition horses, but do we really think that if we have a couple of nice placings, the Euorpeans will all come over here to buy babies? Not gonna happen IMO, so lets focus on selling our young talent to our local riders?

15. Does the USAEq breeding committee have a mission statement? Maybe ask the breeding community what they think it should be?

16. Could USAEq work with Jockey Club and existing tracks to offer off season breeding seminars. A lot of the issues on tax aspects, nutrition, foal emergencies, foaling kits, mare emergencies, ultrasounds, breeding contract, etc. would be similar for both tb and sporthorse breeders, then you could have breakouts with pedigree analysis etc. offered in separate sessions. I know that Hagyard Davison does some breeding seminars right in the USAEq backyard. If you combined forces with JC or tracks or clinics, the costs might be reduced and spread so that the seminars would be less risky and pricey.

Tiki

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:01 AM

Well Denny, you asked us to brainstorm and come up with some ideas. I hope you're reading this and the thread on Costs of Raising Young Stock which has even more information, BUT - IT'S ALL STARTING TO COME TOGETHER AND FILTER DOWN INTO SOMETHING AGREEABLE AND (HOPEFULLY) WORKABLE!!

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[This message was edited by Tiki on Jul. 01, 2003 at 02:22 PM.]

Pony1

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:04 AM

Woooo Whooo -- mbp -- GREAT Post, well thought out, wonderful follow through !!! I nonimate you for our leader *LOL*

Denny are you still reading??? if not we need to figure out how to get these great ideas in front of the Breeding Committee for consideration and action

- and who ever suggested sub-committees for hunter/jumper, dressage and eventing I think this would be a HUGE step in the right direction - as the needs of each group is very very different.

Again Great post mbp!!

Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
Home of the first American Riding Pony bred and born in the USA - GaLa's Stardust Legacy - www.americanridingpony.com (http://www.americanridingpony.com)
"Proud Member of the Hunter Breeding Clique"

CM Frank

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:06 AM

#15.

MISSION: To encourage and facilitate the highest standards of breeding of horses for equestrian competition.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>2003 Objectives:
<LI>•To encourage and support the development of competitions for young horses.
<LI>•To encourage and facilitate the universal identification of horses in competition.
<LI>•To develop educational programs, which might include clinics, seminars, publications, videos, etc.
<LI>•Study successful American and European methods of promotion and marketing to determine which might be relevant to our market.
<LI>•To continue to work closely with the data available from the USAE’s American Horse Sports Database in order to identify leading producers of exceptional equine athletes and to track economic trends in equestrian sport.
<LI>•To continue to develop strong relationships with all North American breed associations, USAE affiliates and where appropriate, with European breed associations. To invite USAE breed and discipline affiliates to name liaisons to the Breeders Committee.
<LI>•To continue to bring to the attention of breeders innovations and advancements in breeding technology.
<LI>•To encourage equine publications, whenever possible, to include pedigree information in their competition results.
<LI>•To develop awards programs and recognition programs that encourage and recognized excellence the breeding and owner of horses for equestrian competition.[/list]

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Accomplishments:
<LI>1. Passed horse identification rule change.
<LI>2. Implemented the inclusion of breeding information in all USA Equestrian press releases that mention horses by name.
<LI>3. Created a field-test version of the American Horse Sports Database for beta-testing by breed registries and committee members.
<LI>4. Continued the development of a ‘Breeders Direct’ website to aid breeders in the marketing of their horses.
<LI>5. Worked with both the Young Dressage Horse and Young Jumper Championships to clarify rules and eligibility and to help breeders better understand the roles of the FEI and the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses.
<LI>6. Expanded the Silver Stirrup categories to include a broader base of competitors and encourage growth in the program.
<LI>7. Continued outreach to Breed Registries around the world to work in cooperation to better identify horses in competition.
[/list]

ise@ssl

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:15 AM

I agree great "round table" discussion going here - maybe a copy of the thread could go to the Committee Members - also include the one on What would you Pay for Training and Breeders & the USAE.

Tiki

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:19 AM

Now see, we're actually included ourselves as part of your committe - by remote. Not only that, but this is an interesting way to hold a meeting.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Everyone has to go one at a time because you have to post your reply.
<LI>There is no interrupting anyone who is trying to get a point across.
<LI>Everyone gets a chance to have their say.
<LI>We're coming closer and closer on our goals.
<LI>We've come up with some really outstanding ideas.
<LI>Some of these ideas are already in process.[/list]
Sheila O'Keefe/Tranquility Farm

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

mbp

Jul. 1, 2003, 10:27 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks - I hope my stream of consciousness above doesn't make you think I'm unappreciative. In going back to read posts that went up while I was typing - I see a lot of them have some similar info. No question that things are cooking and that sometimes too many cooks spoil the recipe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The database is an awesome undertaking and achievement. I am glad about the horse ID, but it seems to me we could have an id system that might coordinate better with the other national orgs (like USDF) regional orgs (like local hunter assn's and gmos) and registries. That is probably in large part a result of my not knowing all the intricacies of the undertaking. I just know if it is doable to simplify this, it would be really really nice.

If you get an opportunity, at some point would you have some addtional info on liasons and young horse?

Have all the NAFSH groups designated a liason? How do you incorporate the liasons? Do they attend meetings (by phone or other?) or are they copied on releases or ??? Is this still maybe evolving?

For the Young horse champs - I know there has been work done on clarifying this - but it seems there is still a lot of confusion. How do we get that addressed? Is there any interest in assessing the need to send horses over vs the need to develop national or NA type championships for participation or have we already done that with a positive determination of the need to send horses over?

Thanks for the info above. I tried to pull a mission statement for the Breeding Committee from the USAEq website but am not really good those things - is there a web access that breeders can use to get general breeding committee info?

CM Frank

Jul. 1, 2003, 11:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>...it seems to me we could have an id system that might coordinate better with the other national orgs (like USDF) regional orgs (like local hunter assn's and gmos) and registries.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are doing exactly that. However, you have to consider the numbers involved. The file from USDF alone is 11,000+ horses to be crossreferenced. This will NOT be a quick solution.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Have all the NAFSH groups designated a liason? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The NAFSH individuals I work with are generally the same individuals who represent the breeds at the NAFSH meetings. They are copied on items of interest, we have one-on-one phone conversations, and I try to attend a Federation meeting whenever I can. They also received the beta-test version of the Breeder Search Engine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I know there has been work done on clarifying this - but it seems there is still a lot of confusion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A lot of this is due to the vagueness of the FEI/WBFSH rules. The USAE International Dept has been trying to clarify it since the inception of the program. We already have National Finals for young Dressage horses and Young Jumpers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> is there a web access that breeders can use to get general breeding committee info? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Breeders Committee members and contact info are on the USAE page, but I don't believe that there is much else there. I can see that it is added.

mbp

Jul. 1, 2003, 11:12 AM

YOu are good!

Gisela

Jul. 1, 2003, 11:55 AM

Wow, Im so exhausted of reading, LOL but very good. I would like to shed some light on one thing that really ticks me off. When I go to a show, where is a catalog of the entries? Who bred the horse? What is the sire and Dam? who is the owner? Where are they located? I know some people on this forum do show dogs so you know what Im talking about. can't the group who is putting on the show come up with a better way of providing a catalog for the spectator. At a dog show they ususally go for 5.00. They are also supported by local vendors, adverising kennels, etc. I would really like to see a catalog.

Gisela Swift
http://xstatic99645.tripod.com

ise@ssl

Jul. 1, 2003, 12:43 PM

One suggestion for the USAE Breeding Committee to consider for the Horse I.D. program. I know there's no fee through 12/2003 - we are filling out forms for all the horses we have now. But after that I expect the fee will be put back.

Why not make the registration of horses born in the current year - FREE. That encourages the breeders to sign up all of their kids (at no cost) and builds the data base that much faster?

The bigger the data base (similar to the JC) the more often people will pay for information FROM the data base.

meghan1963

Jul. 1, 2003, 12:59 PM

i believe all horses are free. Some registries like the NA/WPN assign a ID number when you register it, so all the current foals are taken care of. I went back through our files and registered all our horses. That was quite a few so I really think you can do everything for free.

Meghan

CM Frank

Jul. 1, 2003, 01:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> One suggestion for the USAE Breeding Committee to consider for the Horse I.D. program. I know there's no fee through 12/2003 - we are filling out forms for all the horses we have now. But after that I expect the fee will be put back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are misinterpreting the rule. The way Article 811 is written the Horse ID number is free if applied for online, $10 via hard copy and $20 at the show. There is a waiver of fees and penalities until further notice, but the rule itself grants you a free number if you apply online. There are currently no plans to change the rule itself that I am aware of.

frugalannie

Jul. 1, 2003, 02:00 PM

I'm sure this is available everywhere but where I've looked. C.M.Frank, would you please post the link for on-line registration with USAE?
Many thanks.

pintofoal

Jul. 1, 2003, 02:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>would you please post the link for on-line registration with USAE?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that request, thanks

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

mbp

Jul. 1, 2003, 02:09 PM

EDITED - ignore the rest - it is for pdf printouts - not the online

Online should be https://www.equestrian.org/horseid/

I think

{following is pdfs}

I don't know if this will work or not. GO to the website for USAEq and from the opening page, select downloads. Then from the downloads page, there are two windows with selection options. Go to the first one and select membership. Various membership forms pull up, including Horse Identification (which is further down the list from Horse recordation)

Someone more savvy could and will do this better, but that's my shot at it.

pintofoal

Jul. 1, 2003, 02:21 PM

That isn't an on-line form (at lest not the one I found from that link its an Adobe Acrobat print form) I found the one on-line that you fill out on the computer then press the submit button, here it is https://www.equestrian.org/horseid/

Thanks for that link though, it helped me find the on-line form http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

arnika

Jul. 1, 2003, 03:27 PM

mbp, I second the request that you be our spokesperson to the Breeder's Comittee! Your ideas and all the others posted have been fabulous. Thank you CMFrank for posting all the ideas and plans that are under way.

I think that the idea of having specific classes or divisions put in for NA breds leading up to a National championship(or having them recognized at the championships) for young horses would be the best advertisement for NA breeders. Having a photo placed in COTH showing the winner/champion of a large show, stating this is a "domestic" might change a lot of the opinions you see out here. Having any kind of monetary prizes would also add to riders' willingness to show them.

And last but not least, having a YR program for Judging Sporthorse divisions is a marvelous idea! I've seen this take off in the 4H we have here and these kids now know their stuff! I read a Between Rounds lamenting the lack of hunter judges and thought to myself, they need this program. The funny thing is several of our 4Hers also show hunters with Quiet Hill Farm and Don Stewart, so they know what a good thing this is!

I'm glad to see so many people come together with ideas. I am a nobody but if there is anything I can do to help down in Ocala, I'll be happy to.

Terry Swan at swan41@mfi.net

Jul. 1, 2003, 08:36 PM

I am a long time stallion owner and breeder in California. I breed primarily Hunters and Jumpers. I am very appreciative of the great progress that has been made so far....special thanks to CM Frank. I am pleased to see the positive direction this thread is now taking. Lots of good ideas coming in.
I think most stallion owners feel that all of the foals from our stallions are "our children" and want to do everything possible to assist our clients and mare owners. Foal owners who keep us informed of the success of their foals help us promote our stallions and therefore increase the value and marketability of all of the foals. Most of us spend a lot of money and time and effort making information on "our" offspring available. Help us by keeping us informed.
I am hereby volunteering for any committees that want a West Coast voice and representative to help strengthen the breeding, showing and selling of American bred show horses.
The International Hunter Futurity West Coast competition will be held August 20 and 21. I would be happy to host a reception at my farm (3 miles from the showgrounds at Showpark) after the show on August 20 or 21. This show is usually the biggest showing of Hunter Breeding and young hunter competitors in our area. Everyone involved with the IHF and the Hunter Breeding is invited. Let's talk about this in person, in general and West Coast specifically. Hope to see lots of you at the Futurity and at the farm.
Just The Best,
Tish Quirk
www.tishquirk.com (http://www.tishquirk.com)

DARKHORSE

Jul. 1, 2003, 11:29 PM

I agree with Tish. The IHF West Coast is the biggest gathering of quality young horses in our Western area. I will say Again, if USAe is going to host a Breeders Symposium (I think this was the start of this thread) it should be there. I will help. Tish has volunteered help. IHF will help..I will advise the Board that I am volunteering them too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I have read and re-read this entire thread. Lots of good ideas, and lots of passion. I have been both depressed and encouraged. I realilze this is not about my breeding program but this is what I would like to comment upon:
1. I am not breeding Olympic Horses. That is not my stated goal. Sorry Denny. I agree with the previous poster who says Olympic horses are a combination of pedigree, care, training and just plain luck and freak ability.
Also agree with Ms Hunter that the 3' market is the strongest. That is what the Amateur can ride safely and that is who is buying horses.
I was talking to a BNT recently and remarked that I was hoping this one horse would be a good 4' hunter. He said WHY? NOBody will pay to show it. That is sad. He will be somebody's good 3'6" horse.
2. Second or maybe it is 3rd now the comment that we as Breeders CAN NOT do it all!! Not enough time/energy, not to mention money, in the day to be breeder/rider/off at shows. To me the True Breeder (Calm down, not meaning this for registration purposes but for love of the foal) is the person sitting up on mare watch for days or weeks or whatever. Waiting and dealing with whatever happens and as we have seen this year it can be tragic.
As Hexel commented, I used to ride, I used to ride well. I used to ride anything, jump anything. Key words here, Used To. No excuses, just not anymore. So again..to rephrase Hexel, do I remove myself from my horses? No, I channel my love and interest differently. Denny I admire what you do and wish you continued years and success. But that is not the way of it for some of us. Grant us the love of the horse and let us do what we now do best.
3. I do advise all my breeders to go to the Inspections. They are places of information and are learning experiences. However, I must say that the WB registeries have not opened their arms to the Hunter Breeders. They have not. I have worked within my particular registry and have made some improvements but truthfully, they DO NOT appreciate a Hunter. We are NOT OLYMPIC canidates. I guess I should breed Reining Horses? For all of you who have Dressaage/Jumper Prospects your 'learning experiences' are far better at Inspections.
4. The GAP: Between breeder and BNT/Rider is well documented. I have also approached the BIG names and offered prospects. To NO avail. Too much work. And I have been told by more than one BNT that "Pedigree" is NOT Important! It will either jump or not. And that is that. Now that opinion is UnEducated.
5. I don't particurally buy into the 'Its easier to shop in Europe because it is smaller' line.
I think if you, the buyer, are smart with your money a good buy is easily more affordable here in the USA. I think commissions have gotten out of line. It makes a good horse unavailable.
As as been mentioned before this post, we have established Breeders Groups to entice buyers to just come look! We have lots to show you with in miles. In my immediate area have dedicated riders to show the horses. If you are Seriously Looking, not just oh someday, there is a horse here to see and like. All ages, different pedigrees, differnt disciplines. But you have to come look. The "Prestige" of buying an Import has to go away.
6. How do we do that? Just this way. We Brain Storm, which is what this is. And we have some Top people like CM Frank and Denny lending and ear. And then we go to the Publications. Just as an aside from my personal file, when Osczar was featured in PH for his 100 round, nothing was mentioned about sire/dam/breeer...NOthing.
We as Breeders need to make the magazines know that this information is vital. Who hires these amateur writers and photographers? They are pathetic. I don't know what they are paid and most do not appear to be horsepeople, but their articles should be reviewed and edited, by horsepeople.
The very fact that this topic is getting this amount of response is encouraging to me.
7. The Cost of Training: is impossible if you don't ride. So the breeder sells early so as not to incure those costs. And then we loose track. ID info, buyer lack of communication, lots of reasons. HOW many times can I call and say..I want Pictures? Maybe 3 times..after that I am a nuissnce. So the buyers of our prospects need to be more attentive as well. It is important to all of us; the breeders.
Camille Greer
DarkHorse Farm
Home of Alla'CzarDarkhose Farm (http://www.darkhorsefarm.com)

ise@ssl

Jul. 2, 2003, 04:13 AM

Camille -
I can tell you the ISR/OLDNA has had many, many discussions on the top of Hunters and the large part they play in our equestrian world. Debi Grunnah has worked very hard to educate the non-hunter board members of the importance of welcoming hunter breeders and if you noticed the the Sport-test (performance) requirement for stallions now includes a provision for Lifetime Breeding License ffor superior Hunter show records.

Other ideas are still being discussed but believe me the Hunter market is recognized by the ISR/OLDNA and we know many of our registered horses are doing very well in this discipline.

As a WB breeder who has nominated my youngsters to the IHF - perhaps those of you who have been involved with this could take some suggestions back to them.

1. They are impossible to make contact with.
2. If they would push the age of the horses back a year in the classes - they would get MANY, MANY more entries. As it stands now - there's a 2 yo under saddle class. Given the slow growth of the WB and WB/TB crosses - it's just not something anyone can aim for - even 3 is pushing it. If they expand to older age groups - I feel very strongly that they will have many more horses competing and many more horses nominated.
Thanks.

Hexel

Jul. 2, 2003, 05:22 AM

One more quick mention about the costs to send young horses out for their training. Often as breeders we have several young horses at one time requiring training. With multiplying the costs by 2 or 5 on a monthly basis it just is not good buisness sense. You will not recoup it. I'd be happy just to break even anymore.

I've not been in this near as long as TQ, Camille or many others posting here. But it became glaringly apparent rather quickly this is a labor of love.

Jul. 2, 2003, 08:07 AM

In my experience the ISR/Old has been much more co-operative and interested in Hunters than the other registries. Just The Best received his Lifetime Breeding License based on his Inspection scores, his sport results and the sport results of his offspring. I have found the ISR/Old to be very dedicated in their service to the breeders and their willingness to look at the Hunters even though it is not a part of the Olympic or European competiton.

denny

Jul. 2, 2003, 08:48 AM

Cheryll and Robby, I`d be espedially interested in your thoughts on this, as you were both so instrumental in putting on the Rolex seminar.
I think that one reason my comments about "ignorance" and "expert" caused so much ire from some people is because I was using the standards of our conference as Touchstones" in delineating those concepts.
I stated that there are pedigree experts, conformation experts, and performance experts, but almost noone who is expert in all three, and by the standards of our conference, I absolutely believe that.
People like Peter Birdsall, you, Cheryll, Hanfried Haring in Germany, Ken Ball, the hotshot sales people with the big tb. breeding farms; these are people who are all day, every day pedigree pros.
Similarly, people like Gary Lavin, our very great veterinarians like Kevin Keane, Alan Leslie, Matthew Mackay-Smith, Kent Allen, the other big auction reps, here and in Europe; they are the real conformation pros.
The performance pros are people like GeorgeMorris, David O`Connor, Bruce Davidson, Klaus Balkenhal, people who spend their whole lives in the arena, studying, teaching, riding,making international horses at the highest levels, for decade after decade.
Now I ask you, who do you know that is of that level of expertise in all three catagories?
Compared to them we are almost all ignorant. I am, anyway. I believe, though, that if our National Federation is going to endorse a seminar, we owe it to the participants to hold to that scrupulous level of expertise. Yes, it`s an enormously high standard, which few of us will ever achieve, but I personally would rather be corrected by people like that than praised by people whose standards are lower.
But then I`m used to having Jack Le Goff point to me in the middle of a lesson and announce to the onlookers,"There is nothing wrong with that horse except the abcess on his back!"
Denny

ise@ssl

Jul. 2, 2003, 09:26 AM

One difference in the seminars the WB organizations have put on is that we don't use three Olympic level horses for the scoring part of the program. Nice to see these great ones - and perhaps see what weaknesses exist in their conformation (every great horse has some) that they overcame - probably with great minds and hearts.

At our seminars we usually have young horses of varying ages and both sexes, mares of varying ages, breeds and types and usually two stallions (usually those that are not approved - or perhaps one of each). We use the same scoring sheet the judges use at the inspections - (be happy to provide a copy of that used by the ISR/OLDNA). Then the horse is presented as it would be for the judge. Stood up and walked and trotted on the triangle. We all score each horse. Then the judge scores the horse - then we discuss where we differed and why. It's one of the most educational processes I've gone through. And if the session is videotaped - as we did for ours - when you go back and look at the tape over and over again, you CAN begin to see what your eye missed.

We also videotape the inspections we host and I know as a host and usually exhibitor - I sometimes don't agree with the scoring the day of the inspection. But when I sit back a week later and watch the video of ALL the horses - no other distractions - as the judge would - I can see the scoring was better than my passing glance.

What really trains the eye is looking at a lot of horses - all the time. And looking at young horses requires this more than older horses. There are changes that occur in growth spurts that affect movement for that stage but other ways to analyze the quality of the conformation and the movement as well.

I was surprised the program in Lexington did not include an "expert" on Dressage. With the change of the scoring values in Three Day it would seem that a focus on the horse's abilities or capabilities for Dressage would be somewhat more important in the aggregate than it was in the past.

Perhaps its just a matter of syntax but I feel the word ignorant is such a "hurtful" term. I really do flinch everytime I see it in print. Perhaps others don't - but growing up when my Mother used the word "ignoramus" about someone we KNEW it was the most insulting comment she could make.

Denny you've named some people with great expertise but somehow intimated they and only a few more exist. I would have to disagree. My involvement in breeding and the WB business and now Sportpony business has afforded me the opportunity to meet some horsepeople who have "goldmines" of knowledge to share. Big Names....no. In fact they are people who rarely seek accolades or headlines. Manfred Lopp who judged at DAD last year is just such a person. I've said repeatedly about him - I would kidnap him if it was legal and make him tell me everything he knows!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Dr. Max Gahlwyler is a another person who has more knowledge on Dressage and the biomechanics of a horse than most. Stefan Kiesewetter from the I.A.E.S. International Academy of Equestrian Studies in Warendorf came to NJ to do a Dressage clinic that I sponsored. His lecture was excellent. His wife is a Veterinarian and they have both put years into reading the old masters of Dressage and interpreting the biomechanics of movement and training but he is a true teacher and explains it in a manner that is so clear and understandable - even those with little knowledge were able to look at the frame of a horse and understand the various elements of movement, balance, etc.

I'm sure the "Federation" can set it's own standards for the people used in seminars but I truly hope the selection list is broadened to include more disciplines, breeds, expertise, etc. It's also important to have people who are good communicators and present a constructive program. Some people just can't get up and speak to a group of strangers on an area they might have tremendous experience in or knowledge on and get their points across clearly and succinctly. Teaching isn't just talking. Perhaps it should be an open process where USAE members can recommend experts to the Breeding Committee.

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 02, 2003 at 01:43 PM.]

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 2, 2003, 10:04 AM

It would be wonderful to have top competitors like George Morris, David O`Connor, Bruce Davidson, & Klaus Balkenhal at seminars as they could really teach so much of their perspective of what conformation, gaits, temperament, etc. makes the super athlete. However, if we are to be frowned upon as breeders because we can't meet those standards personally we should just pack it in now. I really can't see those people putting their time and effort into sleepless nights, weeks of waiting, and eating canned soup because you can't leave the farm to shop.

I do believe that the Sporthorse Breeding Judges have their base in Performance, and Devon brings in judges from other countries. The scores for the In-hand classes are based on what these judges know to be important to excel in Dressage. It would be nice to have jumper perspective as well, although many horses bred for Dressage do go on to compete in Jumping and vice versa.

I would really love to see local groups (maybe even like the areas in Germany have organized into "breeds") to support seminars, training centers, auctons, or like the Mid Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders have a sales fest. Maybe something like a "Farm Tour" day/weekend. Twenty farms from an area could be open for guests, then purchasers could see a hundred horses in a weekend.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

talloaks

Jul. 2, 2003, 10:13 AM

Good idea, FHC, perhaps we could get warmblood breeders of all registries to form statewide groups, we could certainly get a lot of people and horses together at Lexington VA. Other states could do the same thing. And definitely include the hunter breeders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

OOPS: Bernie Ball, TallOaksFarm, VA

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

MsHunter

Jul. 2, 2003, 10:29 AM

""People like Peter Birdsall, you, Cheryll, Hanfried Haring in Germany, Ken Ball, the hotshot sales people with the big tb. breeding farms; these are people who are all day, every day pedigree pros.
Similarly, people like Gary Lavin, our very great veterinarians like Kevin Keane, Alan Leslie, Matthew Mackay-Smith, Kent Allen, the other big auction reps, here and in Europe; they are the real conformation pros.
The performance pros are people like GeorgeMorris, David O`Connor, Bruce Davidson, Klaus Balkenhal, people who spend their whole lives in the arena, studying, teaching, riding,making international horses at the highest levels, for decade after decade.
Now I ask you, who do you know that is of that level of expertise in all three catagories?""

AHhh and herein lies a problem. How many of the above mentioned are breeders and choosing prospective sires to compliment their dams?

If I read you correctly, your point is the experts are not breeders. I find that interesting at best and amusing at the very least.

How can you list conformation experts for our industry and FORGET Rodney Jenkins? One of the most educational experiences I had was learner judging with him in WPB a couple of years ago.
No one knows it better than he in my mind.

I also doubt that veterinarians ( I happen to have some of the best around, repro/TB/standardbred/lameness, surgical etc)
and I would HATE to have my vet tell me which conformation attributes and faults paired together would result in a jumping machine.

YIKES!

I think everyone on these boards knows things like curbs usually result in horses jumping in poor form and toeing in/out result in soundness issues and gait abnormalities etc etc. We aren't stupid. Oh I forgot we are just ignorant aren't we?

I don't mean to pick on you, I think your being great going out of your way to talk to us and keep a dialogue going, but your points made above clearly show me we have a BIG PROBLEM if the experts aren't even BREEDERS!

By the way, on a serious note, I truly am downsizing my breeding operation (can anyone guess why?) so, if anyone needs any CORRECT TB mares send me an email. I'd rather buy what I like it is less aggravating I think.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

FNASHR

Jul. 2, 2003, 10:35 AM

I am the current Coordinator for the Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries (and General Manager for the North American Selle Francais Association) and have been following this thread with great interest. First of all, allow me to congratulate the many posters for their excellent thoughts / ideas / suggestions. That they have been presented with great civility is delightful and everyone reading this thread should be proud to be an American (North American – not to forget our friends in Canada and Mexico) breeder. This is a well-educated, dedicated, serious and sincere group of breeders posting – kudos to all of you.

Thanks to Cheryll for beginning this thread and for continuing to add her comments and answer questions. As many of you know, she is doing an excellent job with the monumental task of organizing the new USAEq database. Many of the Federation member registries have been behind this effort from the beginning and are ecstatic to see it finally getting off the ground after these many years. Are there going to be bumps in this road? Surely there will, but please bear with everyone involved as they are smoothed out. We desperately need this data to make even better-informed breeding / buying decisions.

We ARE producing excellent sport horses on this continent. As someone who has been part of inspection / keuring tours for over 10 years now, the increasing quality of our young stock is a delight to behold. Just last year, our French inspector commented about one foal (BTW out of a TB mare) that it was as good as anything he had just seen at the Foal Championships in France – quite a compliment from someone who has no reason or agenda not to be honest. I am sure other Federation delegates have seen the same. I attend breeding shows – dressage and hunter – and definitely see increasing quality in the young horses being shown – some are even quite exceptional. They are beautifully presented, in excellent condition, and well-mannered. Again, congratulations – it is not easy (or cheap) to get these babies out.

I think we are just beginning to see these “better” babies getting into the actual under-saddle show rings and believe they will make their breeders and owners proud. I am seeing them at the (mostly hunter/jumper) shows I attend.

I personally believe that North American breeders are BETTER at raising foals than our European counterparts. Our foals receive serious one-on-one bonding with humans. They are provided the best in veterinary and farrier care and excellent nutrition. (We have learned, either the hard way or by being educated, that WB babies require different nutrition levels than TB babies.) They are taught to lead, stand for the vet and farrier, respect humans, etc. The breeders are producing an outstanding individual with a great foundation – mentally and physically. Then what? Therein, indeed, lies the dilemma as has been so eloquently expressed in this thread.

The Federation has been discussing many of the issues you raise – we have heard you. You are an astute group and surely can understand that having nine different registries come to a “meeting of the mind” – cross all the i’s and dot all the t’s – can take a sometimes frustrating amount of time. Then, after a proposal is worked out, most delegates must then present that proposal to the individual registry Board of Directors. So, from concept to reality, these things do not happen overnight. We are discussing a young horse training program – the devil is in the details, not to mention the financing. At our next meeting at DAD in September, our agenda items include discussion of a Federation-sponsored select sale/auction as well as Federation-sponsored awards for high-scoring horses in many divisions based on USAEq data. (The sale and awards would be for Federation-registered, North American-bred horses only.) Cheryll has been an active participant at many Federation meetings over the years. At the last meeting in December, she participated by phone and, via on-line hook-up, unveiled the new data base asking for our input and suggestions. (Mr. Emerson is welcome to join us in September.)

Your thoughtful input – whether through this type of bulletin board or by contacting your individual registry representatives – helps us to learn and define what our breeders want and need. Perhaps we have failed to keep everyone informed as to what transpires at the Federation meetings – maybe we should post agenda items to our web site (thank you Ms. English for mentioning our address earlier) and ask for your thoughts. I can tell that you will respond and am grateful for and greatly heartened by your level of enthusiasm.

We are breeding terrific horses on this continent – we will succeed. Thanks to all of you who are contributing.

Sheryl Van Gundy
Coordinator
Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries

poltroon

Jul. 2, 2003, 11:56 AM

Just a thought about inspections, biomechanics, pedigree, and education.

This week I am reading "Matriarchs," which is about great TB broodmares who produced racing destinies. Okay, this is racing, not jumping, not dressage.

For the first time, I've gotten to see pictures of some of these really important mares. A lot of them are rather homely! (Admittedly, pictures were not always taken when they were in their most flattering condition, as opposed to the beauty shots for their stallion sons!) Many did little or nothing on the track themselves.

The more I learn, the less I KNOW. Doh!

CM Frank

Jul. 2, 2003, 12:28 PM

Let me relate my view of what made the Event Horse Breeders Symposium special.

First of all, we had the world class horses themselves. We've all been to approvals, breed shows and sport horse judging seminars--looked at countless foals, stallions, young stock and premium mares. But when do you ever have the opportunity to scrutinize and compare some of the top competition horses in the world?

Second of all, we had experts from all facets of the industry. Sam Barr has bred the winners of Rolex, Badminton, and Burghley. All of the riders present had won events of equal or greater importance, including the Olympics.

The vets present had cared for, and or 'juried' (for select sales) some of the world's top athletes.

What was magical was <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>a) the experts don't all agree (Pippa Funnell and Gary Lavin had quite an amusing discussion about the conformation of Primmore's Pride), <LI>b) they come at the problem from different angles, and <LI>c) the end result--instead of being a dry and boring lecture--was more like evesdropping on the biggest names in the business while they debated what makes a great horse and what they can and can not live with in a prospect![/list]

This symposium was not about so-called experts doling out a blueprint for breeding an international horse. It focused on what is. It focused on the pedigrees of real starters--not theories on what bloodlines should produce event horses. It focused on the conformation strengths and shortcomings of real international horses who had done the job and stayed sound until their teens--not theories of conformation. It focused on breeding, maintenance, and marketing programs that have produced real international athletes, marketed them to the right barns and preserved their soundness--again fact, not theory.

I have been involved in the industry and breeding since the early 70s and I can honestly say I got more out of this event than any other I have ever attended--including trips to Canada and Europe and clinics with Dr. Haring. That's saying a lot, since I was spending most of my time at Rolex running around like the proverbial chicken taking care of last minute details and putting out fires and therefore had little time to sit and take notes.

MsHunter

Jul. 2, 2003, 12:37 PM

Cheryll, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
This IS what we need and you precisely
put it together.

Now, as DARKHORSE and others have stated before, we need this for EACH DISCIPLINE, NOT REGISTRY!!!!!

A hunter symposium ( I see this at indoors or Devon or WPB with the judges seminar maybe?)
A jumper symposium
And that other stuff I don't get involved with too I guess LOL!

Can't we split out the disciplines and get people that are experts in our (meaning, what we breed for) field involved?

IHF Finals is another spot since many owners at this stage of the game are also breeders too.

In WPB when participating in the judges clinic we did get to see some of the best hunters in the country and evaluate conformation in the form of placement against each other. I wonder if this could be added upon? It is ALREADY IN PLACE!!

Just my 2 cents

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

meghan1963

Jul. 2, 2003, 12:44 PM

Cheryll,

thanks for clarifying what Event Horse Breeders Symposium was. That being said - what would it take to organize something like this for dressage horses at DAD in September? Or at the NJ CDI since that is a selection trial for the Olympic dressage team?

Then for the jumpers pick one of the big upcoming shows that will have a lot of the World Class horses and riders competing? The Spruce Meadows Masters Tournament 9/4- 9/7 would be really a great place. A lot of the top EU & NA riders and horses will be there for the tournament.

I would be willing to pitch in and help anyway I can to organize similiar Breeders Symposium for dressage / jumpers.

Also a big thank you to you and everyone who has been working to make the new USAEQ database come together. It is really great! This information will really help NA breeder's show that we are producing horses that are super competion horses. Now once we can get the dressage horses on line this will really be something!

Meghan de Garay

CM Frank

Jul. 2, 2003, 01:19 PM

All we need to make more events like this happen is a plan. We can facilitate these programs for any breed or discipline in just about any location.

So--pick a breed/discipline. Pick and time and place (6 months lead time is about minimum for planning but Denny and Robby proved we can do it in less--if we HAVE TO!). Then we need volunteers locally to help with facilities evaluation and coordination. Marketing, mailing, payment, travel, etc. can be handled by USAE from KY. We need names of candidates for presenters, and names of top-notch horses we might be able to borrow. It's fun if you tie it with a spectator event like Rolex, because it is something else for attendees to do. Also, we need some lead time to generate pedigrees for discussion. I really like to look at the pedigrees of real horses that will be competing in front of the participants during the week, rather than talk about the hypothetical.

One thing I didn't mention is that Ken Ball, Angela Pritchard and Sarah Holt took photos and videos of the Rolex horses at the jog. We coupled the stills with their pedigrees and made a PowerPoint. It came in handy when Dr. Gary Lavin and Pippa began their discussion on Primmore's Pride. For those that don't know the story, Gary felt Primmore's Pride was a poor candidate for a Rolex starter. Irony was he won the whole shebang! Ned Bonnie couldn't wait to share that bit of info with Gary later on.

CM Frank

Jul. 2, 2003, 01:22 PM

Best idea is actually to draft a brief outline that we can present to the Breeders Committee for their blessing.

ise@ssl

Jul. 2, 2003, 01:33 PM

Cheryl - I'm confused here. For "us" to come up with an outline to send for a blessing - well "WE" would have to be a committee or entity. Not to be repetitive but this thread should be printed and sent to all of the Breeding Committee Members and discussed at the next meeting. Then the Breeding Committee should come up with an outline and ask various entities - breed registries, organizations, breeders, etc. to help tweek the outline into a plan. This does, after all, fall well within their mission statement.

Then there would be a "blueprint" to follow and those who want to organize a seminar will have the guidelines and criteria set out for them.

poltroon

Jul. 2, 2003, 01:40 PM

I seem to recall that Denny and Robby just had the idea (on this very BBS) and decided it should be at Rolex and just DID IT.

I think the committee would probably be happy to help, but I think that these events will be better if local people can put together a venue and presenters and horses - because the people on the ground know if they have all the ingredients or not.

ise@ssl

Jul. 2, 2003, 01:45 PM

Well just to clarify - did the USAE provide sponsorship (i.e.$$) for the Lexington Symposium? If so would they do the same for those organized by individuals outside the USAE Breeding Committee?

Robby Johnson

Jul. 2, 2003, 02:00 PM

When I first met Denny face to face it was actually at the USEA Annual Convention in Cleveland back in December. We ate bagels and talked about TB's and breeding non-stop! That was where the idea for a SHB seminar for event horses - to happen at Rolex - was actually hatched.

Denny, my thoughts are this. An athlete is an athlete and I think - as much as I hate to revisit this since I know it fringes on bureacracy and politics - is that young horse championship programs are going to be vital to energizing North American breeding programs.

The Young Event Horse Championship program that is held at Burghley each year is an excellent example of this. Primmore's Pride, Tangleman and, I'm pretty sure Moonman (incidentally the top three finishers at this year's Rolex) all came through this program and it's apparently an excellent showcase for young prospects, with a good reputation.

The IJF and the IHF could be better venues for these types of horses, and the addition of a young dressage horse and young event horse program in N. America is what I think would increase the credibility of American breeders and the products of their programs. The show hunter market here is unlike anything else worldwide. Quit looking to foreign countries for answers. Develop systems and protocols that enhance the quality of the competition by increasing the quality of the horse. Increase the quality of the competition by increasing the quality of the competitor. Horsemanship should be a first and foremost thing, and I personally feel like a good horseman should have some fundamental knowledge of all facets of horsemanship. That should include knowledge about breeding, horsecare, different styles of riding, etc.

I have a hard time finding the connection between the passion and heartache of breeding and the value of a horse, though. Maybe I'll get flamed for saying that. Just because a horse is produced, and the product of two exceptional horses, doesn't particularly mean the horse is going to be a stellar athlete. If stellar athlete prices are (hypothetically) $30K for a going three-foot horse, why would I pay $30K for an unproven yearling who is standing in a pasture?

Would I pay it if the horse had done some rudimentary work that would show his atleticism and ability? If I had it, sure. (I personally try to never pay more than $3K for a horse). The risk would be lessened in this scenario. Also, breeders must know that if they don't sell a foal for a competitive price, they've just bought themselves a few years of training/handling unless they are willing to sell below market value just to clear stall space.

I think by raising the bar in terms of quality *and* performance - linking the two together - the nature of the breeding programs here will change.

And Americans, as a general rule, just kill me.

A few months ago Dressage Today did this hokey article on grooming a dressage horse. It had 27 do's/don't's from these DQ grooms. In it they said, "don't clip whiskers because it's unnatural and the horse needs them for sensory feel." And yet they leave the horses up 23 hours a day and bathe them daily. How is that more natural? I actually feel like something so minor - which probably really stems from the fact that in Europe they don't clip them (but the women also have furry armpits)- makes such a huge impression I have one thing to say ... wake up America! This isn't Europe. It's not Ireland. It's not New Zealand. It's not even Canada. It's America, and things here work a specific way. Adjust accordingly.

Finally, be creative! If you own a quality mare and breed to a quality stallion and produce a quality foal that you know, in your heart, is stellar, then why sell him as a prospect? Work your business plan so that you can retain him and bring him on until he's 3-4, then sell him with confidence that he will exceed anyone's expectations.

I have a friend who is a breeder - I speak of her often - here and she has produced some really quality horses. One won the IHF, one won at Devon, most recently one came home from Devon as a second year reserve champion. Her horses sell, mostly, at 3-5 and all of them are started and capable of going right to work. Seldom do they sell as foals. But she also produced a horse that does the jumpers and, I think, was doing the high preliminary's last year at 4'6" and upward. The mare is by Consul out of her Anglo-Trakehner mare who herself was a GP show-jumper. The horse she bred has full Dutch papers and won the M&S qualifier in Atlanta last autumn in a class of 108, and came 8th in the overall competition. The horse consistently jumps clean rounds and reeks of GP potential.

She is priced very fairly for what she has not only proven she can do, but the potential she also shows. Still, she hasn't flown off the shelf.

So I guess that proves the point that there are multiple factors in the equation and if I had all of the answers I'd be selling $40K weanlings all day long!

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

[This message was edited by Robby Johnson on Jul. 02, 2003 at 06:13 PM.]

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 2, 2003, 02:40 PM

WHEW, BOY Robby, your answer scares me. $3000. for a horse? I can fill that broodmare's stall with a boarder for a year for more than that - no risk, no farrier bills, no vet bills, no investment, no shows, no training, no registration fees, ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Jul. 03, 2003 at 06:00 PM.]

mbp

Jul. 2, 2003, 02:46 PM

I don't think that is uncommon for an eventer though - mid to low level eventing. Ottbs don't do badly in that venue and are available at that price as adults who can be ridden without any wait. Makes that a hard market for a breeder to breed to.

ise@ssl

Jul. 2, 2003, 04:20 PM

Well I'm sure there is a yearling out there for sale for $30,000 but that's not the norm. We've kept our prices very moderate since 9/11. We know people don't have as much money to spend. Our yearlings range in price from $6500 for a sportpony to $8500 (this colt scored all 8.5's). These are actually very moderate prices IMHO.

I can't supply someone with a $3000 youngster. Not possible. I'm sure there are plenty of TB's coming off the track for that price but I think that's more of a crap shoot than buying a nice young horse from a reputable breeder.

Robby Johnson

Jul. 2, 2003, 06:23 PM

And interesting to know that somewhere along the way someone took a loss, you know? (At least where TB's are concerned.) My horse Rhodey sold as a yearling through Fasig-Tipton in Maryland for $7500. He raced three, four and 2 starts his five year-old year, won a little money (not much, he was a claimer!) and I bought him for $3250. 17hh, perfect temperament, exactly what I wanted. Not "should finish 17hh" or any of the other "maybe" stuff that is involved with looking at a yearling.

So, yes, it can be done. Probably not the norm, that's for sure, but it can be done.

And it's not my position to demean or devalue anyone else's foals. It's just important to remember that the market will only bear so much and I think the money is always going to get dropped on the able-to-win horse, and that horse may or may not be purposefully bred, but it will always be performance proven.

Have any of you breeders ever approached a successful rider to bring your young horses on? I'd be interested to see how those deals develop and what the success rate is.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 02:01 AM

I just don't think the TB off the track is a valid comparison - we KNOW that there are 1000's of TB's from the track (well bred) that head to the New Holland sale weekly in PA and end up headed for Canada to become burgers in Europe. Someone did take a loss on them - but usually they were owners who really consider the horses an arm's length investment. The breeders were usually out of the picture when the horse was a yearling.

Sad that some of the best TB bloodlines are just being "thrown away". Racing is now focused on sprinters - run an two burned out usually by 4. Oh yes a few keep going but fewer and fewer every year.

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 02:04 AM

Cheryl Frank - I'm interested to know how much money the USAE spent on the Symposium, how many people came and how much was paid in toward attending. If people are to try to do this - they need an idea on what the $$ are going to be.

Also who produced and paid for the Powerpoint and what did that cost to produce? It is a helpful visual aide and it would great to know what something like that costs to put together.

When I hosted a Breeding seminar (must have been 7 years ago). People did bring their horses but attended for free. I had to pay a lump sum to the Registry for their services and advertising through their mailing list. But I was out of pocket quite a bit of money. With the lunch, morning coffee, renting the facility, paying for the bedding, mucking out the stalls, etc.

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 03, 2003 at 07:33 AM.]

lorik

Jul. 3, 2003, 04:16 AM

Robby, I'd be interested to know exactly how your seminar was run. Did the horses 'present' to your judging panel, or were they evaluated as they performed? I'm curious because I believe that it has been suggested (in this forum) that something like this be run at Dressage at Devon. I'm trying to imagine how this could happen. We all know how cramped the showgrounds are and how tightly this show is scheduled. Can you give me a little information, please.
Lori Kaminski
Breed Show Secretary
Dressage at Devon

meghan1963

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:15 AM

ROBBY - can you please email me the name of the Consul your friend has for sale? I like to track his get's results. Also your friend can list him on our web-site sale page for free since he is by one of our stallions. My email is ironspring@chesco.com

Thanks,

Meghan

Ashemont

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:22 AM

Several pages back the one thing that jumped out at me was the USAE's goal to identify top producers. Gee, isn't that nice? Since a great majority of breeders are small time what is that going to do for us???

We are a small breeder yet we have produced 2 approved stallions and we've got a 3rd who will probably make it. Many farms in Germany NEVER produce a licensed stallion - does that make us a "top producer"? Our stallion Welt Marke hasn't been bred as widely as others but he has produced 100% Premium foals, does that count? All of the babies currently on our farm won Premium awards at their inspection... one colt was even the highest scoring of the entire tour... but I'm certainly not naive enough to think any of this will get us listed when you tell everyone who those "top producers" are. It will be the big farms, I'm sure. So what are the small breeders to do?

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

CM Frank

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Several pages back the one thing that jumped out at me was the USAE's goal to identify top producers. Gee, isn't that nice? Since a great majority of breeders are small time what is that going to do for us???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The average breeder is small. It is common knowledge that a breeder, owner, sire or dam can lead a ranking list based on the performance of a single excellent offspring. This is true in TB racing as well as the World Breed Federation rankings.

Back to the Breeders Symposium.

The PHR underwrote the Symposium. If organized properly, they should be self-supporting. This one ran a little over budget, due to some features (like a wine and cheese reception) that were fun, but not necessary for a successful venue. The Event Horse Breeders Symposium should have a break-even budget of $5,000 including advertising, etc.

The Breeders Committee is considering a budget for 2004 to make funds available ($5,000 per) to underwrite more of these. Again, they should be self-supporting, but the funds could help offset shortfall. The Chronicle and HorseCity.com helped with promotion. We have another major promotional sponsor that is interested in supporting more of these in the future with in-kind contributions (publicity, advertising, etc.).

We charged $50 per person for the two days. The presenters volunteered their time and we paid travel and hotel for two keynote speakers.

The jog was photographed by USAE staff with a digital camera and I produced the Power Point on my home computer after hours. We spent about $200 on pedigrees purchased through Equineline, and about $600 on the binders and copies of all the pedigrees, articles, etc.

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:37 AM

The format was such:

Thursday night, 2 hours dedicated to 4 panelists; each having 30 minutes to speak. We had Dr. Peter Birdsall do his pedigree presentation, Dr. Gary Lavin do his conformation evaluation, Pippa Funnell talked about bringing on young horses and what she looks for in a prospect, and Sam Barr spoke about his formula for breeding his Welton event horses.

On Friday night we had space in the Big Barn at the Horse Park. Everyone gathered 'round on folding chairs, and the OCET grooms brought Prince Panache and Giltedge in, and the panelists, minus Pippa but along with Torrance Watkins and David O'Connor, talked about each horse and its breeding and performance history. Dr. Kent Allen, those horses' vet, talked about each one as well.

Afterward, John Williams brought his lovely Carrick in and we did the same thing.

I think our seminar was more of a spongey-knowledge thing, which is why I come to Denny's defense in this thread as well. Denny is as much as student of this process as he is a gatekeeper of knowledge regarding breeding. His energy and enthusiasm created a real learning environment where there were no wrong questions and certainly no wrong answers.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

CM Frank

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:49 AM

Further clarification re: Ashemont's post above. When the Breeders Committee used the term 'top producers' they were referring specifically to sires and dams--not individual breeders.

Tiki

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:54 AM

Robby, I'm shocked!

You are proposing that we should all sell our adult horses for $3-$5K???? and foals for, what??? $1000-$3000??? You say that somewhere along the line someone took a loss to sell a horse for that, but I guess you're happy to capitalize on that loss.

We may be small to medium breeders, but we're doing this as a business. HELLO! Uncle Sam doesn't take kindly to us giving our 'product' away. If we're lucky we get to make $1 or $2 profit every few years on the overall expenses for that year. Anyone that has to start a horse and keep him in training for a year - even if they get $25,000 for that horse - doesn't make a profit on that horse. Many trainers in West Virginia have told me that their horses bought their farms for them (and some very nice ones too) with their wins. They can AFFORD to take a loss against their INCOME.

I live in Charles Town, WV. We have a race track and lots of TB farms around. Yes, these TB breeders do take losses on their stock THAT CAN'T RUN FAST ENOUGH. How do they do that? They take losses AGAINST INCOME. They breed lots of horses. Stud fees are in the $250-$1000 range. Most, but not all, WV TB studs are free if you raise them to race in WV because of the purse percentages returned to the stallion owner and the breeder, and because of the Breeder's Classic.

When they don't run fast enough, they sell them for $500-$650 - basically to pay of back feed bills. They make money at the track on the ones who CAN run fast enough. They also take them to New Holland, they give them away to CANTER and write them off their taxes AGAINST THEIR INCOME.

As warmblood breeders we face stud fees of $1500-$3000 for the stallions. Why are the stud fees so high? The stallion has to be inspected and go to a 100 Day Test, or be competed successfully through Prix St. Georges in dressage, Intermediate level in jumpiing and, I think it's Preliminary level in eventing (may be Intermediate - not sure).

It's $10,000 to send a horse to the 100 Day Test. It's tons of money to campaign a horse to the competition levels required. These stallions all offer live foal guarantee.

Performance is now being increasingly recognized for mares. It costs a lot to campaign a mare. If she is in competition, it costs a lot for embryo transfer. Traning and mare performance testing are very expensive.

TBs are all bred by live cover. They breed dozens of them. They have a trainer basically on staff. Exercise boys (or girls) are cheap to get the horses conditioned. They go in races and win, place or show and bring in money.
Most event horses are OTTBs. Of course they're cheap. They may not be able to run fast enough at the track, but they run quite fast enough to make the time on a cross country course.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Of course those horses have to be good athletes, but they start out being bred as athletes - they just can't run quite fast enough for their originally bred discipline, but they excel in their secondary sport and because of that the initial purchase price is bare minimum.

You can't possible expect us to sell foals that cost anywhere from $4000-$7000 - JUST TO GET THEM ON THE GROUND for $1000-$3000.

I am enraged that you can put on a Breeder's Symposium, bring in some of the best event horses in the world, some of the best 'experts' in the world, tell everyone how to breed and market the ideal competition horse, AND THEN TURN AROUND AND TELL US BREEDERS THAT WE SHOULD ASK $1000-$3000 FOR OUR HORSES!!!!!!!

Sheila O'Keefe/Tranquility Farm

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 06:18 AM

Simmer down, Sheila, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

First, I posted my personal cap on buying a horse. Times being what they are and all, and my lack of a trust fund, that's about all I can afford.

Secondly, the process of defining an effective breeding formula - for a specific type of horse - has nothing to do with how much you sell your foals and horses for. The symposium was intended to define a formula for producing an event horse; not an economic summit on how to sell one. Obviously the USAE BC has no role in how you sell and market your horses.

The point I'm also trying to make is that good breeding doesn't necessarily equal good performance. It can really indicate good performance, but until the horse demonstrates a level of competency, you can't bank on selling him. And it's hard to justify spending an equal amount of $$ on a horse who is unproven when, regardless of you budget, you can buy one for the same price that is already proven.

As a competitor, would I spend $12K on a GucciGucciGucci foal or $12K on a solid six year-old Training level eventer, even though GucciGucciGucci won 147 gold medals in three-day eventing? If my need were for a horse that could start immediately, then I wouldn't be buying a foal. If it were to spend six years bringing one along, I'd buy the foal.

But would I be more compelled to spend $25K on that same foal at six years old, already going around a Training level track? Of course.

This is why I think there needs to be a link between breeding and performance, and I think the obvious solution is a young horse program that allows the products of a breeding program to be showcased and sold on. I'm not keen on the idea of one that puts a too-young horse in the position to have his legs pounded off. The Young Event Horse program I mentioned earlier focuses on horses aged 4-6.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

Tiki

Jul. 3, 2003, 06:43 AM

Okay, Robby, let's get realistic here. Someone is throwing around prices of $30-$40K for foals. The only ones I've ever heard of for that kind of price are the cream of the crop in Europe. One very famous young horse trainer said he buys 30-40 foals a year for $25-$50K. You are saying (as a person who is seen as a promotor of the sport horse breeding symposium) that you would never pay more than $3K for an adult horse.

The sport horse breeders on this forum are, in general, asking $6-$12K for weanlings. Some people have significantly lower expenses, some are doing this as a hobby and not as a business and are asking a bit less. In general, it costs $4000-$7000 to get really good foals on the ground, inspected and registered.

We're talking $6000-$12000 here and I think that's pretty much standard and pretty much fair. I think it hurts us all to have someone of your ilk saying $3000 is pretty much all he'd pay for a horse. That's all! People other than breeders reading this forum say, "Wow, Robby Johnson says he only pays $3000 for a horse and this guy is asking $10,000 for a foal - that's waaaaayyyy too much money". That's a lot of influence, whether you want it or like it or not. You're not even talking about the same kind of horse.

This is the same reason breeders here are upset with Denny when he said American breeders are ignorant and uneducated. It's the INFLUENCE that he has - it sends people flocking to Europe to by foals and horses, because DENNY said we here in America don't know what we're doing.

Sheila
Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 3, 2003, 07:22 AM

The side of the $3000. horse that people don't see:

In boarding horses over the past 25 years, I have seen TONS of OTTBs bought for $1000 - $3000. Most of them (note I said most, not all) have been ongoing headaches for their owners. At one point, we made a list of horses that were usually calling vets, having to stay in from an injury, lame, losing shoes, needing 4 shoes, needing corrective shoes, etc. ALL of those horses were OTTBs and they usually had several, if not all of those complaints. One out of 10 was a pretty solid guy - few issues.

The other issue is the training issue. When a horse "bred to be a sporthorse", comes out of the box, they are bred to jump, move, go on the bit, be calm at shows, so you don't have to spend years of time and tons of money training them. If a sporthorse can do a lovely 70% Training level Test after 2 - 3 months of breaking and training, you will really be ahead of the game over a horse that may take a year or 2 IF they stay sound, don't lose shoes, etc.

For the hunters, the "wear and tear" you save on the legs and joints from not having to spend hours longing to "wear them down", not to mention the time on a horse that you can just pull out of the stall and be ready in 20 minutes for your class.

The lifetime savings can be tremendous.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 07:25 AM

OK, let me rephrase ...

If I had $15K to spend on a horse I would! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Actually, I would spend more on a well-bred mare, capable of being ridden and eventually put back into a breeding program. How much? Well of course it would depend on how pretty she is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and also on how well-bred she is, then I'd factor in her temperament, her ability to jump and, finally, her movement.

For a gelding, my cap is $3K, but I guess that should also be clarified to say "for an OTTB gelding." I've never actually entertained the thought of buying a young horse who wasn't an OTTB!

Where I find my inclination to "bump up" in terms of price, etc., is at the three - four year-old age bracket. A nicely-bred horse, who has been backed and has shown a rudimentary capacity to perform without killing a rider, takes on an entirely new value as I see it. It doesn't have to have a big competition record whatsoever. Just one that I can get on and ride. At that point, $20K doesn't seem out of range or unrealistic - even though I don't have that kind of $$$ to spend and likely never will (saving up is not my strong suit!).

Also, I am not a breeder. I was a mare-owner who was/is interested in breeding. But moreso from the R&D side of it and less interested in the production and manufacturing side of it. When I look at it through these business lenses the obvious thing I see is the lack of "marketing machine" on the other side of it. At that stage, the economic factors really kick in and play a huge role in what the actual delivery price filters out to be.

In another thread someone mentioned starting an advertising campaign to coincide with Dressage at Devon. I think that sounds like a great idea. I'm sitting here reading the conference syllabus for the Public Relations Society of America. I laughed at one of the symposia which is about a new concept in corporate communication ... the truth! Can you believe it? I am going just to attend this, as it's always been my practicing mantra. So if I were a breeder, I would craft messages to say directly why someone should buy my horses. As the fabulous Ann Wedgeworth said to Jessica Lange in that Patsy Cline move, "girl speak the truth and shame the devil."

Here's a little ad copy that might influence some American buyers.

"15 hours and multiple time zone changes. Language barriers. Obnoxious American Syndrome. A transoceanic horse-transport bill that costs more than a week in the Carribbean. And your new horse arrives and still cribs, still weaves, and to top it all off he cannot cope with the heat or bugs.

It makes no sense for someone based in swampy Houston, Texas, to buy a competitive dressage horse from Bavaria when, right here in Anytown, USA, we've been producing horses of equal quality for XXX years. Book a cheap Southwest Airlines flight and, in less than three hours, have a look at our heat and bug-tolerant, acclimated, horses. We speak your language. We know your competitive environment. And we produce horses to excel within those parameters."

I have lots of other ideas, too, but I think what it requires is that you target your public and then craft messages that appeal to them and their specific needs.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

arnika

Jul. 3, 2003, 08:37 AM

Sheila I understand exactly what you're saying but you have to realize you both talking apples and oranges here. The type of WB sporthorses that you, I and most of the other posters on here breed aren't the type of horses that Robby and Denny are talking about. We mainly are looking to breed excellent dressage and jumping horses and sell to a market of adult amateurs/trainers and those prices are pretty standard.

Eventers in America have been able to keep their prices artificially low(for sporthorses) due to the availability of OTTBs and backyard horses. They are perfectly competitive at the lower levels, although I saw some changes in that this year at the FL events. Because of this, most eventers will not pay much for a lower level horse. Thus no one in America breeds specially for eventers, they just scout for them OTT. THAT is why the upper level eventers mainly get their horses from out of the country. I just can't see breeders targeting a market where they know they'll lose money continually. It takes many years of lower-upper level successes to gradually build the kind of reputation of a Welton Stud, and let's face it, there's only a handful of these worldwide.

I really feel that for event horses it will be a long time before we see anyone breeding successfully just for their market. Although I will say I had an upper level eventer offer me a very good price for a Han x filly out of my Tb mare a few years ago(at a Hanoverian foal inspection no less!). I'm still kicking myself for turning it down as it would have been great advertising but my daughter is happy!

JMVHO as a small breeder.

arnika

Jul. 3, 2003, 08:49 AM

FHC we must have been typing at the same time. I agree with you also, your points are very well taken. Living just outside of Ocala, we have tons of less expensive Tbs that can be picked up at the sales. They usually come with baggage.

Tiki

Jul. 3, 2003, 09:06 AM

Arnika - you must not have read my entire reply to Robby as I made the cost comparison between OTTBs and WBs.

The problem I have is people with the INFLUENCE that Denny and Robby have, in part because of the Breeding Symposium and in part because of reputation, when they make blanket statements about costs or breeder's knowledge.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

mbp

Jul. 3, 2003, 09:35 AM

Thank you Arnika http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think we can jump all over Robby for giving us information that is typical of an amateur event rider without olympic aspirations. One thing we need is to know the markets and the driving forces for the markets. IMO, the 3-8,000 market is one of the biggest for adult ammy event riders who don't really have the time or desire to 3-day, but will mostly stick with novice and training level events, maybe a prelim. That's the chunk there - the core.

Also, as much as we cost out our foals, we have to realize that sometimes you get soaked - the foal just isn't worth the money you have in it. This happens all the time, everywhere, and is why you have to be a little brutal with your internal evaluations, because the longer you hold onto the "not to par" foal, deadset on getting your money out, the more you lose.

An absolutely wonderful tool for breeders and the industry(s) in general would be some comprehensive sales surveys. They could be broken down by region and discipline. I am thrilled with the horse id program, a good sales survey program would be Nirvana. Admittedly, there are going to be some large "reliability" issues, but over time that would get tweaked. Since we don't have the auctions of tb breeders or European registries, we just take potshots, based in part on our costing info, in part on our small (and even for most of the larger breeders small is correct in connection with the industry in general) personal experience, and in part on anecdotal information (I heard so and so paid such and such for that foal and mine is better/worse etc.)

I mentioned "industry(s)" bc now that I am thinking of it - I am not sure if the breeding committee is supposed to be reflective of all the USAEq disciplines (for example, saddle seat, etc.) or hunters and the sporthorse disciplines, or?? I am now thinking it is probably to be "all inclusive" ?? In that case, subcommitees would really be helpful, with maybe a special subcomnitee that includes the FEI or Olympic breeding groups - dressage, jumping, eventing and maybe endurance/driving?)

Anyway - sales survey info is integral to business and I think it would be hugely helpful. It would also be, I know, another huge database undertaking though. But I'd pay $50.00 - $100.00 to get a nice yearly sales breakdown.

RE: Symposium - I think DAD is a good idea, butit is cramped and often hectic and (dare I say it?) muddy. Also, with fall inspections and Cosequin finals etc Sept can be a tough month.

What about something in Fla in January or so(prefoaling?). Lots of nice horses, incentive to leave the farm SHOWS AND SUNSHINE and a more "down time" for a breeding farm? Just a thought.

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 09:51 AM

Gee! Does anyone see the irony here. That finger waving in our faces - you don't know what you are doing ...your horses are mediocre....but I'm not shelling out more than $3000 for an OTTB and I won't look at anything that isn't! HEY - Robby - don't know you but I've got some WB/TB's that have tremendous dressage ability, excellent jumping form AND they can gallop with the best of them. But I guess because they have an "O"Crown on their hip they can't cut it ..........better look over your shoulder 'cause we are gonna come and get cha!

If Eventers REALLY want to be taking home the GOLD all the time - well they'll go after it with the best horse they can find. REGARDLESS OF BREED.

We've all seen OTTB's. My two best mares are OTTB's - brain fried from the experience but super conformation & movement and both pumped out 6 superior foals each by a variety of warmblood stallions. Now their WB/TB daughters are doing the same. But we see time after time where people will go through three OTTB's with no luck getting their heads screwed on straight instead of spending the same money on one of our kids. As I understand it - Dressage will have a greater point value in Three Day - so the emphasis on the gallop and time will be less - better start jotting down some names of the breeders from this thread because we have what you will need. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

arnika

Jul. 3, 2003, 10:12 AM

Sheila I did read your whole post and pretty much agree with you. I just think that Robby should be allowed to post his personal thoughts/preferences here. After all, it is a public BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. We also have to remember that he comes from an amateur eventing perspective and there really is a huge difference in how they price their prospects and where they tend to come from. I like to know what everyone thinks.

For straight dressage/jumpers here, the competition is incredibly fierce even for amateurs. I'm talking don't even think of placing at the local shows if your horse isn't very good. It is starting to look like that at the ammie/lower level events too, as I mentioned above. Most of the winning ammies had WB crosses, of course upper level is different.

If there is anything put on in FL I'll be there! If one was put on at Wellington, you'd have the top Hunters/Jumpers and Dressage horses there together. January or early-mid February might work. I'm about 5-6 hours away but if there is anything I could help with, I'm willing.

Terry Swan
PS: I was rereading my post and thought it sounded really rude about "know what everyone thinks". Sorry I didn't mean it the way it came out....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif.

Tiki

Jul. 3, 2003, 10:28 AM

Arnika I'm not trying to be rude or in your face at all. I'm just saying that because of the role Robby played in the Breeder's Symposium, as one of the organizers, that by posting what he did about prices - without qualifying the kind of horse he was talking about - it could have a lot of influence on buyers ideas of fair prices for horses. I feel he also intimated that it's OK to take a loss. You can really only do that for so long without any income to take it against.

On to another subject!! Is Wellington anywhere near West Palm Beach? I have a girlfriend there who is always asking me to come down. If not too far away I'd have a place to stay to come down for another seminar/symposium.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

poltroon

Jul. 3, 2003, 10:35 AM

I just gotta laugh at the flaming of Robby here. As for his "stature" - well I love Robby, been reading his words for years and years - but he's just an adult amateur who can write decently and had the gumption to get out there and help put on a seminar that he believed in.

Nothing any of you couldn't do! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There is just too much defensiveness here. We all want to work together, but no one owes anyone else a living or even a free lunch. Your cost structure says you've got to sell them for an average of $10k apiece. My cost structure says my employer pays me $X and my mortgage is $Y and I have $z to spend on a horse. The two are completely independent; there's no guarantee that $z > $10k. But together I think we can work to help figure out how to bring costs down for the breeders and/or to get more of the high $$ buyers to you.

[Yes, someone lost money on the cheap horses that people buy instead of yours. Perhaps the person buying your $15k three-year-old will lose money too. Caveat emptor and then carpe diem! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ]

I loved Robby's marketing text, and I think that sort of approach is the way to go. For every person I know who got a brilliant horse overseas, I know one who got a horse that shouldn't have passed the prepurchase or who didn't work out for some other reason - and you can't return a horse when it costs $5k to ship.

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 10:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Gee! Does anyone see the irony here. That finger waving in our faces - you don't know what you are doing ...your horses are mediocre....but I'm not shelling out more than $3000 for an OTTB and I won't look at anything that isn't! HEY - Robby - don't know you but I've got some WB/TB's that have tremendous dressage ability, excellent jumping form AND they can gallop with the best of them. But I guess because they have an "O"Crown on their hip they can't cut it ..........better look over your shoulder 'cause we are gonna come and get cha! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't put words in my mouth. I've not waved any finger in any face so don't go attributing that to me! So what do you do with these horses you have? I am actually very fond of WB/TB crosses. Particularly those that display the best traits of both parents.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If Eventers REALLY want to be taking home the GOLD all the time - well they'll go after it with the best horse they can find. REGARDLESS OF BREED.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. But as mbp (remind me to send you a bottle of something, btw!) states, that can usually be anything. Still an economy of scale. I suppose if everyone was riding a $35K horse around Novice and Training level then I'd be saving better or pursuing a different sport!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We've all seen OTTB's. My two best mares are OTTB's - brain fried from the experience but super conformation & movement and both pumped out 6 superior foals each by a variety of warmblood stallions. Now their WB/TB daughters are doing the same. But we see time after time where people will go through three OTTB's with no luck getting their heads screwed on straight instead of spending the same money on one of our kids. As I understand it - Dressage will have a greater point value in Three Day - so the emphasis on the gallop and time will be less - better start jotting down some names of the breeders from this thread because we have what you will need. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please don't breed-bash and stereotype here. I have met just as many kind and sane OTTB's as I have fruit-loopy and sullen warmbloods. This is not what this thread is about (stereotyping). It's about facts and about industry-behavior and practices. And if you've got the horses who are going to excel at three-day, how are you going to plan to market them? How have you gone about developing them? What makes you assess them as a three-day prospect? Have you ever done a three-day? Do you know that sport? Just to correct you, dressage doesn't have a greater point value in three-day eventing. The goal is to accrue as few penalty points as possible. It has reached a level competitively where one must be capable of achieving a good dressage score if one hopes to win, but the horse must still be able to do the XC on Saturday *and* show-jump on Sunday.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 10:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
I just gotta laugh at the flaming of Robby here. As for his "stature" - well I love Robby, been reading his words for years and years - but he's just an adult amateur who can write decently and had the gumption to get out there and help put on a seminar that he believed in.

Nothing any of you couldn't do! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Poltroon! I will send you a bottle of something too. Yes, this talk of "ilk" and stature is a bit frightening for me. I see a need in a specific discipline for a formulaic approach to producing a specific type of horse. Not rocket science, here. I'll let everyone know, though, when my phone starts ringing off the hook with big Hollywood offers!

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

arnika

Jul. 3, 2003, 11:05 AM

Tiki, I wasn't offended at all! And yes, Wellington is just outside of West Palm Beach. Actually the two are used pretty much interchangeably when talking about the winter circuit here. I don't spend a great deal of time there but have gone to watch a few times.

I'm hoping to have one of my young ones showing next year. If not there then at HITS. But it would be great to combine my horse watching(drooling) with a seminar. I attended the one at Rolex and would LOVE to have one for H/J and D. I want to be well-rounded http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 11:42 AM

Robby - couple of responses.
The finger was waved in the original article in the COTH that started the discussion.

I wasn't breed bashing. I have many breeds in my barn and I'm inviting you to stop by anytime (West NJ) or come to the ISR/OLDENBURG inspection I host 8/14 - we are a small site but you can see the scoring system on mares and foals and understand what we are learning from the process. BTW - I do know the Dressage scores go by penalties in Three Day (but most readers here might not).

How to I market my horses. Most of them I've bred are sold - we have 4 yearling, one 2 yo, one 3 yo, one 4 yo we are starting here on the farm for sale. All the ones we've sold are either competing or being used for breeding. They are in Dressage, Hunters, Jumpers & Three Day. The 8 yo we have with an Advanced Three Day rider was kept because he survived a horrible barn fire at the training facility he was at when he was 4 and we had to give him 2 years off and train him all over again. We market through some advertising - mostly word of mouth from those who own our horses (one family owns 3). How do I assess ability for Three Day. Well we can evaluate their movement, conformation, we free jump them and jump them over fences. The rider gallops them out and works them cross country to see if they have the mind & heart for it. No guarantees in this business just probabilities. I do take some offense at the demand to know if I've ridden in an Event. NO I haven't. I had a long financial career which allowed me to buy a farm and breed horses. I also don't know that I had the fearless factor for it. But I certainly road and jumped through the Wayne Dupage preserve in Elgin when I boarded at Lamplight. I do support the discipline and believe wholeheartedly in cross-training. As I noted above when Denny DEMANDED to know what all of us were doing...that I and a fellow WB breeder Juergen Strauss stepped up and hosted and funded the cocktail party for the JERSEY FRESH CCI** because we believe in the discipline and we worry it won't survive if venues aren't found and support doesn't continue. We've also committed to doing so next year and to work to find sponsors. I wish you and Denny would consider there are many people (not just breeders) who support ALL equestrian disciplines even if we don't ride or train in them. Without this support our sport would not survive.

I will ask again what I asked earlier in this thread of Cheryl. Perhaps you and Denny and Cheryl can tell us what the USAEQ spent on the seminar at Rolex? If people are to try to us this as a "prototype" as Denny said in his article - we need to know how much money was expended in KY, what receipts were realized and will the USAEQ commit funds to other seminars?? Denny stated the Eventing seminar at Rolex will be an annual event so I assume the USAEQ has committed to fund that as well. How much money does the USAEQ have available for other seminars on other disciplines that we might organize. Denny, after all, suggested we do this - but funding will be a key factor. Will the same amount spent at the Eventing SEminar be available for other discipline seminars???

sylvan farm

Jul. 3, 2003, 11:44 AM

With regard to the orginal topic:

The USA Equestrian's formaton of the Sport Horse Committee was a great concept. Many of we long time breeders thought, now we are going to get the support and recognition we need to truly produce world class horses. However, in practice it has not met the needs of the industry either by representation or action.

Like many of USAEq's committees, when it was formed most of the members came of the 'inner circle' or old guard, many of whom were TB enthusiasts. I know of at least two long time West Coast warmblood breeders who asked to be on the committee. They recieved no reply from USAEq.- not even a "thanks for your interest, but..." reply. So much for equal representation.

During the subsequent years, it appears the committee has done virtually nothing. (I am not pointing a finger at C.M. Frank who has made a Herculean effort organizing the collection of statistical data for breeders.) Finally, this year the committee decided to put on an educational symposium about eventing, TB's and TB bloodlines. This is not surprising as Head of the Committee Mr. Emerson has a well deserved world-wide reputation as an expert in eventing. A good beginning, but what's next? Afterall, eventing and TB's represent only a very small part of the sport horse industry in the US. Hunters, jumpers, and dressage are BY FAR the major disciplines for competition, with dressage the fastest growing segment.

What kind of support are these disciplines receiving? Not much. This is not for lack of trying on the part of the breeding industry. Last fall Mary Giddens representing the NA/WPN, Hugh Bellis-Jones representing the American Hanoverian Society and I developed a proposal for a National Dressage Forum. We submitted this proposal to USA Equestrian, via Mssrs. Balsh and Emerson, believing our country's FEI representative and NGB was the correct venue for this program.

This wasn't a 'wouldn't it be nice...' proposal but a written document based on the Global Dressage Forum held in Europe. We proposed a similar model, with content outline. We had already contacted representatives of the three Studbooks recognised by the WBFSH for producing the world's top dressage horses. Drs. Johann Knaap of the KWPN, Evelin Vollstedt of the German Oldenburg Verband and Ludwig Christmann of the German Hanoverian Society had enthusiastically said yes, they would like to participate. Amoung ourselves we had begun a financial feasibility study to figure income, expenses, etc. and consider venues.

The reply from USAEq. and the Sport Horse Committee? NOTHING, not even after a follow-up letter. Nothing, Silence.

I can speculate as to why we were ignored, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that our NGB and it's Sport Horse Committee only pays lip service to supporting our breeding industry. Sometimes SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES.

However, after reading this thread, clearly breeders want continuing education and more tools to help them breed the best quality horses (and there are some great horses being bred in the US). We will re-submit our proposal, and continue to follow-up.

Judy

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 11:48 AM

Judy - perhaps the various breed registries should have a note in their newsletter about the submission of the proposal so USAE members like myself can write support letters to have something like this FUNDED. Thanks.

As a USAE member I would like to apologize that the Association didn't even have the courtesy of replying to you - positive or negative. There's no excuse for lack of propriety on the part of those representing the members.

poltroon

Jul. 3, 2003, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
I will ask again what I asked earlier in this thread of Cheryl. Perhaps you and Denny and Cheryl can tell us what the USAEQ spent on the seminar at Rolex? If people are to try to us this as a "prototype" as Denny said in his article - we need to know how much money was expended in KY, what receipts were realized and will the USAEQ commit funds to other seminars<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CMFrank posted on pg. 9 that the budget was $5000, that the Committee may be able to make $5k available to other events, and a rough idea of their receipts and expenses.

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 12:36 PM

Hi ise@ssl ...

I hate that you feel fingers have been waved. As someone who grew up riding mostly $300 mutts, I like to think I'm pretty open to any good horse!

When I get in the kitchen I like to add a little dash of this and a little dice of that to make a great dish. So any horse who is capable of performing the asked task is worth his salt as far as I'm concerned.

I thought maybe you thought I was questioning your horses and I would never do that. I rarely meet a horse that I don't love!

I think Cheryll addressed costs for the seminar a few pages ago. I personally don't know how much was spent.

Your idea for hosting the cocktail party was exactly the sort of creative thing that will help highlight your horses.

Just remember, you can always sell an athletic, useful horse.

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

obie

Jul. 3, 2003, 12:42 PM

Back to the subject of recognition. I firmly believe that if the USAEq is serious about the breeding end of things, they will take a stand and make both the names/registration numbers of sires/dams AND the name of the breeder on every entry form or every registration form. If they do not push it, it won't happen. How about being ineligible for awards if your horse does not have a lifetime number and full pedigree and breeder's name. That would shake things up a bit. It needs to get serious. I know of two big time hunter trainers who see the registration as a complete joke and have actually used two different numbers for the same horses just to get around a few "issues" Photos of the horse like they do with the Jockey Club need to be done for every adult horse competing in USAEq competitions. There needs to be some ramifications for not having the correct info . If its not known, so be it, but there must be some incentive to try, or some consequences for not knowing. People would do a little footwork if they were required to do so. As a buyer, I want to be able to look up a horse in the database and track it from the day it hit the ground to the day its competing in a big jumper division, who had the horse, what performace record it had means a whole lot. This will also help identify PERFORMANCE lines here in the states, not just keuring or inspection or in hand results. Also, everytime a horse is listed, that parentage and breeder should be listed, The USAEq needs to commit to that recognition and make it the norm. Peer pressure is a great avenue for conformity. I really believe that the USAEq needs to make this a serious issue and make a stand. Every big name trainer needs to Publicly get on board and follow the guidelines as well. Again, I would love to see something implemented that if you do not have the information about the horse you are no eligible for awards, how else is the GOVERNING BODY going to promote american horses and riders??

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 01:11 PM

Thank you I didn't see the details for the seminar costs.

Well - off topic but I just got a package from Bermuda - shipped a gangly 3 yo by Ideal out of my wonderful TB mare Lovely Lucerne there 6 years ago. Just received photos of him at the Dressage Championships and also perfect form jumping over a 3'9" fence. Plus an article on the horse and rider from the Bermuda paper!!! His name is Invincible. If anyone is going to vacation in Bermuda ....let me know I'll give you the owners name...she & her husband run a Kayak business. Those pictures made up for the Denny Emerson article - it's all about breeding great horses for great people who love riding them!!! Phooey on those who think US breeders aren't coming into their own. They need to get off their high horses and take a look around http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CM Frank

Jul. 3, 2003, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> What kind of support are these disciplines receiving? Not much. This is not for lack of trying on the part of the breeding industry. Last fall Mary Giddens representing the NA/WPN, Hugh Bellis-Jones representing the American Hanoverian Society and I developed a proposal for a National Dressage Forum. We submitted this proposal to USA Equestrian, via Mssrs. Balsh and Emerson, believing our country's FEI representative and NGB was the correct venue for this program. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Judy didn't receive a response because the ball was back in her court to represent the proposal along with a budget. I just spoke to her on the phone.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 3, 2003, 01:45 PM

I do have a bit different perspective. Although it really makes me uncomfortable to hear someone say they won't spend more than $3000. for a horse, my problem in not with the TBs. Flame suit on, but I happen to believe that for Upper Level Eventing, TBs are the best breed. My issue is that with OTTB, you have so much more baggage and long term expenses that the long term costs are really MORE than buying a quality young horse bred to be a Sporthorse. I am quite sure TB sporthorse breeders would be concerned as well. They can't produce a TB foal for that either. Yes, you buy what you can afford, but in the long run, you may have been much better off saving and purchasing a better bred prospect.

Robby is actually in a very good position to know this as he has/is learning the hard way the costs and heartbreaks that come as breeders striving for the perfect athlete. And I would be willing to bet that he has hopes of his colt being far superior to the $3000. OTTB.

Many eventers don't see the benefit of breeding when there is a huge assortment of track rejects to pick from. They just don't see the hidden costs. I do question why the "First Big breeding seminar was to target the eventers, when those are the people least likely to actually spend money on a horse bred for sport. If event breeders actually "learn" from the seminar to "build a better horse", they will still lose lots of money because no one is buying them. It also sounds like from the reports on this thread, that the experts were not agreeing on what to look for, or what to breed for, or why a certain horse became a superstar, so although it may have been a facinating time, what do we learn from this? The eventers seem quite content to purchase horses that others have lost money producing.

It also seems sad that Denny and the breeding committee, took on the task of arranging that seminar, but now it seems that the Dressage, Hunter, and Jumper breeders are left to do it themselves.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Jul. 03, 2003 at 05:58 PM.]

Robby Johnson

Jul. 3, 2003, 01:50 PM

Daryln, that is a really good post, actually. Because I do think my colt is probably worth more than a $3K OTTB! But could I even buy him? Probably not!

And you *are* very right in terms of buying an OTTB. Thankfully Rhodey is insured, but has cost close to $4K just to vet and treat for his mystery lameness and ulcers. So I think I'm closer to a $7K horse if I look at it that way!

Robby

high high post post
i dont brag i mostly boast
from the VA to da LA coast
izzy kizzy lizzy go

denny

Jul. 3, 2003, 02:11 PM

Hey Robby,
Haven`t you learned ANYTHING from seeing the experiences of me and George Morris? Remember that article he wrote a few years ago about how some riders needed to lose weight. He told me last year that they are still sending him hate mail, yapping at his heels like a pack of Jack Russels!
So watch it, buddy. The truth, as you honestly perceive it, can get you villified. Remember, we KNOW that the only reason you organized that Rolex seminar was so you could skim the profits, you wretch!!
Denny

mbp

Jul. 3, 2003, 02:14 PM

I guess Robby or Denny could answer best, but I watched some of the evolution of the Rolex clinic through this forum and I don't think it was a matter of the breeding committee deciding to do an eventers forum but the other disciplines will be on their own. It seemed as if Robby and Denny had spoken informally about using the opportunity of Rolex to do something like this, they kicked it around on this forum and got several responses of helpers - like Kinsella - and quickly go some materials into place. It seems as if Cheryl has said #s are not final, but involve around $5,000 of expenses and that the committee's function was primarily "front" money, reimbursed through fees, etc.

I don't fault Denny for pursuing something in his field. Better he should get the ball rolling with SOME educational activity. It does make you wonder a little about where the "dressage" or "hunter" etc. reps on the committee are now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif IMO it is exciting that Sylan et al may already have a proposal in the works. Fingers crossed for that. I would agree that a wider cross section is served by dressage and hunter seminars, and that event breeding is perhaps one of the "low return" areas for domestic breedrs, but things have to start somewhere. Targeting direction is a much easier task than overcoming inertia.

Heather

Jul. 3, 2003, 02:39 PM

I think one point that's being missed here is that we are not al heiresses with bales of money to spend. I believe in the importance of sport breeding programs.I also believe that a purposely bred, purposely started, sporthorse youngster will often (but not always) be a superior perfromance horse to an OTTB.

But just because I believe it, doesn't suddenly make me have the money to go out and buy one. Should I put a second mortage on my house? Or should I buy a horse I can actually afford and enjoy?

I can't tell you what is or isn't a reasonable amount of moeny for a horse you've bred, I can tell you that unless I hit the jackpot in the near future, buying ANY horse for $10,000 or more is simply not in the cards for me. WOuldn't matter if it was a baby Giltedge, a just backed Custom Made, or a something currently competing. And I doubt I'm alone in this regard.

And yes, by the time you decompress and train the OTTB to the point where it's on par with the purposely bred, purposely started young horse, you've put a good deal more money into it, BUT for someone like me, that cost is absorbable over time. The lump sum is not a possibility.

And that is, I imagine, an impassable problem.

ise@ssl

Jul. 3, 2003, 03:06 PM

Denny - you just can't seem to see the forest for the trees. George Morris can make a point about riders being fit. What people objected to was the horrid mean way in which he attacks people who are not borderline anorexic. That's the truth. And unfortunately we all are spectators to the fact that those remarks have made some young women riding (and every other sport) dangerously underweight.

I'm surprised you didn't take the time to at least address the post from Judy (Sylvan Farm) about the non-responsiveness of the USAEQ to the proposal put forth by reputable sporthorse people. After all this was probably directed to something you say you support.

You can joke all you want about the money Denny (and old boy it by putting your arm around Robby's shoulder) with your comment. BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY DENNY. HELLO! As I posted earlier - when the USET & AHSA(NOW USAEQ) flushed millions of dollars down the legal toilet, we (those little people out there) had to just "stand down" as they say in the Army. Anyone who spoke up or objected to what was happening and/or begged for a swift resolution for the good of the sport - KNEW they risked being set upon by the great ones sitting on the boards. Now you do the same when the article YOU wrote as Chair of the Breeding Committee slaps the ENTIRE Sporthorse Breeding Community down stating the horses we've bred are "mediocre". Well how could you NOT expect a response? Believe me judging from the emails I've recieved - there are many who are just plain afraid to post on here - fearing being made fun of or chastised.

Sorry also that the those who have had great moments in equestrian sport and had the moment of having medal hung around their neck sometimes lose sight of the fact that it takes a big foundation to hold up those at the top. Some of them (some you've mentioned) aren't even people we would sell a great horse to for varying reasons. But we - those mediocre little people pay dues YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR keeping the machine running - usually getting very little if nothing in services returned. Why? Because we love horses, we love the equestrian sport and we are o.k. with being very good at what we do on a daily basis with very little credit from the "Gods"! We are those people you see at horse shows, events, clinics, etc. etc. that volunteer our time and energy to "Put on the shows" for those who get to be in the spotlight. Most of the time with very little credit or even a "hello", "good morning" or "thank you". More often it's a brow beating about something that wasn't right for the Queens and Kings. "Off with their heads!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Breeders know that a Data base of information on our horses will accomplish many things: Credit to those who breed the horses; an accurate accounting of each horse's competition career (boy!! won't some representations by sellers be blown out of the water); real hard data on the pedigrees of not only those Gold Medal horses but all of those other horses out there competing successfully with Amateur riders on their backs and proof that horses bred in this country are NOT mediocre.

We are all ready to support the effort but if the Chair of the Breeding Committee can't be a little bit more open to the concerns, suggestions, complaints of the Breeders - well I'm a little worried. It's a whole lot easier pulling the wagon up the hill with a good team of horses (doesn't matter breed or type) than pushing it up with just a few select steeds.

NYbreeder

Jul. 3, 2003, 05:23 PM

Denny, After over 200 hundred posts on this board, I have to say, You just don't get it. You just don't get it. You are out of tune with the breeders, breeding and breed societies in this country. I am no longer concerned about whether you can move things forward for US breeding, after reading your posts I am more concerned about how far you will move things back. I am quite serious. It would be better for you to resign now. Ask yourself, How much good have I done, how much confidence have I built up with these breeders, these serious breeders, over the last few days? I am embarrassed to think that I am breeding under the mantle of a governing body with this breeding committee. Who I am? Ask Ms. Frank, she knows who I am.

Laurie@CBF

Jul. 3, 2003, 07:10 PM

Wow a lot has happened here since yesterday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As an equine veterinarian I have to agree with Fairviews comments as I know many "high maintenance" OTTBs. The OTTB's can be a particularly tough ride (esp in the beginning) and have a plethora of "Boo Boo's" and stress related problems in the first year or two. My clients tell me that "he will be worth 'all the trouble' when he finally makes it to the upper levels http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. They do expect some "losses' due to colic etc. It is a pay now vs pay later question http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

As a sporthorse breeder I am not interested in breeding a tough to start - high maintenance horse. They are difficult to sell as youngsters (in the US). I would rather plan most of my program for the amateur market and once in a while try to breed a top horse that also has a great temperament. I'd rather breed a great horse that was a lot of fun to ride that made it almost to the top than a difficult horse with the talent to go all the way (but needed that "special rider").

In Europe trainers/riders are much more aware of talent and do not shy away from/or ruin gifted "difficult" horses (ie Fein Cera). Unfortunately that is not the case in the US. No one here wants to put the work in. So there is NO reason to breed horses in this category as the market is not here. Denny - we are not ignorant of what it takes to produce a top horse - just cognizant of the reality of who buys our horses. It would great if you could appreciate this difference.

On a different topic - one reason I think that the OTTB's are so succesful in eventing (and has not been discussed here) is the "conditioning base" necessary for a top level event horse. For event horses I feel that the OTTB's offer an "unparalleled" conditioning experience - which bodes well for upper level X-country. Fox hunting in Britain/Ireland probably comes a close second.
For upper level event horses - the "early" conditioning ingredient can be as equally important as the package of talent/conformation/training.

On third "note" I agree with MS Hunter. People I want to get input from (for my breeding program) are the top riders that also have their own solid breeding programs (if they are a judge - even better ). For Hunters and Jumpers - Rodney Jenkins must be considered. For Dressage - Hilda Gurney comes to mind. A veritable gold mine would be found in Paul Schokemohle - yet I doubt he would ever give up his "secrets of success" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

The identification system is critical for breeder recognition. I would like to see a "coupon book" show entry system. This way the breeder and pedigree info is "pre-printed" - so we don't have to rely on the "riders" to fill out this info on the entry form. Imagine how easy it would be at the shows http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Ashemont

Jul. 3, 2003, 07:35 PM

Reading back over this thread I find lots of great suggestions that would help breeders in the US. My question: has anyone who can implement any of them heard us? Or are we just going around in circles?

I am certainly willing to work in any capacity that I can to further the interests of American breeders. We currently host annual Keurings and now host annual breeding seminars with Equine Reproduction. What else can I do? Where do we go from here?

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Allyn M

Jul. 3, 2003, 09:08 PM

Just took time to sit down and read the postings on this forum that I had not read and I am dissappointed that everyone is not thankful for the GREAT job that Cheryll,Denny and Robby did for the Rolex seminar.I am sure that they used breeding for Eventing as a forum as that was the venue where they were presenting
.I was very sorry that I was unable to attend as I know there was much to be learned there.
Would I try to breed for the eventing market ? definitely not. Been there .... Done that. After a short career breeding horses for the track I tried breeding TBs for sport and there is no way you can compete with the track reject market.That does not mean some of our horses are not going into eventing. It means I cannot afford to compete with that market.The I.R.S. takes a dim view of the kind of losses that occur with such a risk.
I want to go back to what several of you have said about just trying to breed for the 3ft. market....not trying to breed Olympic horses.I am going to refer to the old adage " Breed the best to the best and hope for the best". To me that means you must set your sights high as not all of your horses will meet your standards but some will.If you set your standards too low in my opinion you may end up with some horses that won't even have the ability to jump.
As for the comparison between the warmbloods that are being bred for the Olympic disciplines
and race horses that are being bred for speed ...each one can give something to a potential cross but I believe that the temperament factor derived from the warmbloods is what is making them popular with the amateur market. In the end result what everyone is looking for is an easy to train ,co-operative,athletic,sound horse that can do the job required of him.I just happen to believe that the inspection system is the way to attain this . Anyone interested is welcome to attend the BWP Keuring being held at our farm on August 24th and have lunch and taste my husband's homemade wine.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

MsHunter

Jul. 4, 2003, 02:35 AM

"want to go back to what several of you have said about just trying to breed for the 3ft. market....not trying to breed Olympic horses.I am going to refer to the old adage " Breed the best to the best and hope for the best". To me that means you must set your sights high as not all of your horses will meet your standards but some will.If you set your standards too low in my opinion you may end up with some horses that won't even have the ability to jump.
As for the comparison between the warmbloods that are being bred for the Olympic disciplines "

Allyn M, I was the one referring to the 3ft horses. This was not what I meant. I am simply saying that I feel we are capable and most likely producing the right "types" of horses to get to the top, but they wind up usually being an amateurs horse to ride, and therefore, become in hunterland 3ft horses or jumper land ch/ad horses. Now, there is nothing wrong with that if we have decided that we want to keep the 3ft divisions prospering and our customers happy. IN addition, this would lend me to believe we are producing at the very least, rideable horses with a good temperment.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 04:27 AM

NYbreeder - my sentiments exactly. Not ONCE has Denny posted that he was grateful for the volumes of information and constructive suggestions put forth on this thread. He has also failed to acknowlege that he had very little awareness of what the Sporthorse breeders have done ON THEIR OWN while the NGB has done very little over the last few decades to put the MACHINE in place to track our horses.

Kudos to Cheryl Frank for shouldering the Horse ID system - but why hasn't the USAE taken an advertisement in the newsletters for EVERY SINGLE WARMBLOOD OR SPORTHORSE REGISTRY IN THIS COUNTRY to tell the breeders Get On Board' ?? Many people who breed DO NOT join the USAE - they see no need for it if they are not competing and some will just pay a fee for the one breed show they go to. From the standpoint of growing the organization laterally - HEY! here is not only a market segment you might not have captured.....here's a way to get hundreds - maybe thousands of horse on the system.

I'll help you people out and hand out information at my Inspection. I'll go out on a limb and say almost everyone who hosts an inspection for any registry will as well. Why doesn't the Breeding Committee have a tri-fold for handouts to breeders that the Registries can distribute. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

And to repeat what most of the breeders on this board have said - WE DON'T MAKE IT A POINT TO BREED MEDIOCRE HORSES. We aim for the stars everytime we make the selection process for our mares. We CANNOT afford unmarketable horses (we live with them) and God Knows (as does every single breeder) we get handed enough heartbreak and losses without any effort on our part. What we cannot breed are untractable, untrainable rogues - regardless of looks, conformation, movement.

We know there are many riders out there, mostly Amateur, some aspiring to Professional who will pay good money for our horses. I would note that even when there were auctions in this country offering horses (unbroken and undersaddle) of very good to excellent quality the halls were NOT filled with our Top Riders waving bid cards. We can seek out the opinions of those who ride in the top competitions successfully - but to make the leap that these people will make qualified lecturers on the fine points of breeding quality equine athletes is flawed. Of the names Denny threw out - well I've sat through or saw videos of some of these people giving clinics and either left or hit the stop button. It was all about them! Very little about the horse in front of them.

I would also wager some dough that if we went back over time and looked up the BREEDER for all the past Olympic horses we would have a lot of names we never heard before or saw in print or saw on the leader board.

Keep posting the great ideas, comments and complaints - I WILL print this off and spend the money to send it to the Breeding Committee Members - as I haven't seen that Mr. Emerson has offered to do that.

I also think it's unfair to say that people are trying to slam the Eventing Symposium. We were slammed - broadside - because Mr. Emerson wrote an article before he had a significant number of facts and accurate information. IMHO - Three Day Eventing had better draw themselves into the equine community a bit more. The venues are disappearing and the cost of staging these competitions is high and requires facilities that can handle the various discipine requirements, parking, moving spectators around outside and LOTS & LOTS of volunteers. And if you eventers think all those volunteers are also Three Day riders - you are dead wrong. Those of us who jumped in to help the Jersey Fresh CCI** did so - NOT BECAUSE WE RIDE THREE DAY - but because we are worried it might disappear. It was a great success. There has been a growing negative attitude toward this discipline which really does test horse & rider in a myriad of ways. And I will once again throw my time and effort into next year's Jersey Fresh but won't be sending any of my horses to anymore Denny Emerson clinics.

Sometimes I think the entire horse community should stop being so myopic and fractured. Land for horses is being developed. Ordinances and regulations regarding the keeping of livestock (which is horses) are increasing and becoming more restrictive. Liability is ever present and protection against litigation is costly. The expense of owning, breeding, training, competing horses increases and won't decrease into the future. AND we have generations of kids who were raised on soccer and gymnastics and NOT anywhere near horses or riding academies. And we continually struggle against the perception that this is a rich man's sport. We CANNOT afford to kick each other in the shins and expect to reap any benefit from it.

The mission statement of the Breeding Committee is well written. Now comes the hard part - making it reality. I would suggest some damage control on the part of Mr. Emerson - why don't you just apologize for being wrong on many points in your article. We are out here in the trenches Denny - everyday, everynight, every year but I know I'm seeing more and more really great people GIVE UP BREEDING and either quit the business all together or start importing horses from Europe. Probably the ones you helped sell by your article.

Let's get on the same page and build a system that will challenge Europe's machine. And give our riders in this country - regardless of level or discipline the very best horses to ride ........and enjoy. FYI - the Sporthorse breeders in this country learned through their mistakes that they had to improve their breeding programs to produce the highest quality horses. Unfortunately our NGB has not been on the same track - but hopefully this thread will give the Breeding Committee some feed-back that perhaps they can catch up to us if we all work together. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 04, 2003 at 08:40 AM.]

Allyn M

Jul. 4, 2003, 07:22 AM

I would like an opportunity to read the article but unfortunately I have not picked up a magazine since the foaling/breeding season began.Can someone please tell me how to access this? I have always loved Denny's articles in the Chronicle and have saved several related to breeding so it is hard for me to believe that he would not be just trying to help breeders in the USA.
As far as getting top riders to actually come to the farms. It isn't going to happen unless several farms get together and hire an agent and pay him to come to the farms and scout the horses. Then agree to pay his expenses plus a commission on what sells. That is the way it is done in Europe and the agent is the contact in Europe for the USA trainers that are buying. Horses sell in Europe for about the same price they do here but getting around is much easier and no one ever counts what they spend on flights,hotels etc. against the price of the horse. The thing that is against us is the size of the USA and then I believe that people get too hung up on registry name or what country the horse originally came from .For the most part I love the BWP because the office in Belgium will allow me to register foals from stallions that are world class performance horses even if they are not approved by the BWP.They have to approve my selection first and then I have to agree to a DNA test.THis enables me to Tap into bloodlines that I would not be able to access otherwise.
I then would like to say that all world class performance horses do NOT have nasty temperaments. I have personally visited with almost every horse that we have bred to overseas and they behaved like most stallions but they were not out of line . I once had an old TB breeder tell me that if you can look across a field at a stallion and not know that he is a stallion from a distance don't breed to him. There is a fine line in a performance horse between a winning horse and one that just blobs around.Most amateurs want a good attitude but they want a forward moving horse that is co-operative. I believe part of that comes from the raising of the foal just as you would a child with discipline and love.Some of the horses get that overseas and some do not. Some of it come from the early training and that is where I believe our missing link exists. We need regional training centers for horses that could be a place for the top riders to look at what the North American breeders have to offer. Actually in the mid west we have several facilities that would qualify . All that is needed is a top knowledgeable trainer to rent stalls in that facility and start.I believe we need a group get together for more discussion !!!

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

CM Frank

Jul. 4, 2003, 07:42 AM

Putting all of this in perspective I'd like to point out some important facts to the participants on this BB:
[LIST]First of all, the members of the Breeders committee (there are 20 seats) are VOLUNTEERS. They dedicate their time, and travel to meetings AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT.
<LI>I am paid by USAE to facilitate the development of the pedigree/performance database, but it is due to the dedication of the committee members that I am here at all.
<LI>Many of the breeders on this BB are not even members of USAE, which is odd to me if they expect USAE to serve them.
<LI>Denny is not the sole controlling influence of the committee. We have representatives from many breeds and disciplines (who frequently disagree), plus input from many interested parties that are not committee members. Many of you are accusing Denny of making assumptions about US breeding, but I hear just as many of you making your own assumptions about the Breeders Committee. The committee holds both an open forum (in conjunction with the Owners Committee) and an open meeting at the convention each year. I can tell you, the committee meeting is usually standing room only. I can also tell you that many of the individuals making protests about the committee have never attended a single meeting, nor have they corresponded with a member the committee. I wrote an article in EQUESTRIAN magazine called "What do breeders want?" It was an open invitation for breeders to send a message to the committee. So far, I've received two emails from a circulation of 80,000+ members.
<LI>Aside from Denny and Robby's (who BTW, is an enthusiast, but not a committee member) obvious interest in eventing, the reason the first symposium was for event horse breeders is simply this: It could be done. USAE is here in the horse park, so there were no long distance planning issues. We knew we could get the horses and presenters we needed in a short time frame because the world is here for Rolex. It was designed to be a prototype for future symposia for any breed or discipline.

denny

Jul. 4, 2003, 08:24 AM

This will probably have to wait til I get back from the Tevis Cup, but I`m going to personally interview 6-8 of the USET level riders and coaches in dressage and/or show jumping, and ask them what it will take for them to ride more US breds.
I`ll ask them if the current US breds are of equal quality to those they are currently riding from other countries, and if so, why don`t they then support our home industry. If they don`t feel the US breds are comparable, I`ll ask why not, and ask what needs to be done to bring them to comparable or greater quality.
Then I`ll report back here what they say.
At which point you can either learn from our very best riders, or you can come up with any number of reasons why what they think is irrelevant. But at least it will be out in the OPEN
Denny

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 09:05 AM

Well Denny when you question them - ask how many young horses they look at in a year's time.

Cheryl - many breeders don't join USAE - because they don't feel they are getting any services. That's what they tell me.

Also I wish I had time to read the magazines when they come - usually I'm playing catch up when there's too much snow to do anything else. And responding isn't always a luxury either - this one just knocked my socks off.

I'd love to see the feedback from the top riders - but it will only be helpful if we KNOW who they are and exactly who said what in detail to put it in context. But you'd best follow up with speaking to their agents and sponsor - or whomever found their last horse - or it won't have the depth of information that we need.

And lighten up on the sarcasm Denny - we are the ones that put our foals in front of judges every year and hear the scores. FYI the ISR/OLDNA publishes the results of all foals in the Breeders Guide - so not only is it public it's lets everyone see how a breeder stacks up against other breeders. If anyone knows how to take constructive (operative word here) criticism - we do. I think we'd also like to know if the people you interview BRING the horses up through the ranks or leave that to someone else - if that's the case - we also need to hear for the infamous "someone else".

Cartier

Jul. 4, 2003, 09:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> At which point you can either learn from our very best riders, or you can come up with any number of reasons why what they think is irrelevant. But at least it will be out in the OPEN
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Denny,

I hate to make this seem like a harangue… but do you notice that in your list of possible responses they are all negative in the sense that you assume the responses will be critical of American breeders. I’ve read this entire thread and there is an attitude which comes across; maybe you aren’t aware of it. And, in fairness, I don’t mean to single you out, but still, you are something of a public figure… you represent a group… and a negative attitude (however manifested) can be toxic to your point of view and the goals you are working to achieve.

In many ways my husband and I typify the target group that breeders are trying to reach. We wish to purchase, we have the means and the passion, but over the years we have been extremely turned off by rude, overbearing pretentious people supposedly in the upper echelons of sport horse breeding. One of the poster’s above mentioned being part of a group who had made a proposal which they claimed failed to receive an appropriate response. When I read the post several of the names popped out at me. We’ve met some of these individuals at inspections over the years … one or two were some of the rudest most abrasive people you’d ever want to meet. Now I’ll concede that people are entitled to be who and what they are (especially in private), and everyone can have a bad day (so maybe we just interacted with them at the wrong time), but if you all are speaking about reaching out to potential customers, you might consider that your public persona can drive interested parties away. IF you are representing an organization, you personify that organization... and you should be sensitive to (or at the very least cognizant of) how you are coming across. People / potential customers, may not give you, your organzation or your point of view a second chance.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Jul. 04, 2003 at 02:03 PM.]

Allyn M

Jul. 4, 2003, 10:03 AM

Hello out there ..... can anyone tell me where to access this article ??

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

denny

Jul. 4, 2003, 10:11 AM

I am going to let the riders and trainers speak for themselves on this topic. I wrote an article in The Chronicle in which I stated that I felt that I personally was too ignorant, and needed and sought more education, and I also felt that many of our key constituencies were also lacking in sufficient knowledge. I absolutely believe that, whether or not others agree.
For doing so I have been attacked and attacked, and told that I just don`t get it.
That is correct. I don`t get why so many American breeders seem to be so scared by a quest for excellence. Do you think that the US Three-day Team would be the current gold medalists if Mike Huber, Mark Phillipos, Karen Stives, David O`Connor, Jim Wolf, and the other team leaders were afraid of excellence?
Do you think it was wrong for the USET to admit that they needed the knowledge of Bert de Nemethy, Jack Le Goff, Mark Phillips, to raise their standards?
I think that what I am hearing again and again from many of you breeders is FEAR. fear of what the US riders may tell you, fear of admitting you/we all have more to learn, just plain, debilitating fear.
I came right out in my article and stated that I wanted to be a smarter, more knowledgeable horseman. I cited instances of other people who are great horsemen, and then THEY get slammed in these pages as well.
What it the wellspring of this great insecurity? You attack others who are trying to get better. Maybe you need to look within yourselves to see if you can figure out the source of why these great horsemen make you so defensive.
I`ll call some of them, as I said, or you can do it yourselves, and we`ll know more about what THEY think.
And if you wonder whether the people on this thread will accept what they have to say, it will be revealling to see how many people like ise discount them, as she did already, before hearing one word.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2003, 10:18 AM

Denny, I am not trying to stir up trouble, but your above post seems to say, "OK guys, if you won't believe me that you don't know what you are doing, maybe you will believe the Dressage and Jumping Big Guys. So when they say you don't know what you are doing, you can either learn or make up excuses."

The problem as I have stated in a previous post is that those "Top People" have not seen the horses that we are producing. They may have seen some US bred mediocre or worse horses, and made judgements on all from what they have seen.

Even our Top riders in Dressage rarely spend time watching the young horses go AT DEVON.

How would they know if what we are producing is any good if they have not been to Inspections, Devon, or the West Coast Equivalent, to see the best? Most of the riding horses, nobody knows who bred them.

When you see the quality of horses at inspections, and the imported youngsters at Devon compared to the US bred ones, we are very competitive. My own personal horses are mostly too young to be riding horses, but the few we have started have been incredible undersaddle, love to jump, have excellent form. It will be a while before they make a name for themselves. I will say that my stallion's first 2 foals, one was sold to a Prix St George rider, the other was sold to an event trainer. Last year, I sold 1 to a Dressage Judge, and one to a Jumper rider. Everyone that has ever been here looking for a foal to buy, has bought one of mine - just not getting enough people looking. In one case, I had a lady say they had been to 40 different breeding farms looking at foals in the $8000 - $10,000. range. On quality alone they had narrowed it down to 2. BOTH were mine. I only had 2 foals that year.

and BTW, I am a member of UASE, but have not opened one of the magagines in years - just never had anything for me in there, so I guess I missed the question for breeders.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

CM Frank

Jul. 4, 2003, 10:45 AM

I think if anyone should be insulted by this thread it is the riders and buyers of competition horses.

Riders are busy people. Most don't have the time to waste looking at 40 horses to find 2. I don't sit at home expecting buyers to drop in. I get my young horses where the riders are--either to the shows or to the barn of a trainer who can move them on. Even so, I HAVE sold some very nice ones right out of the field.

If the riders don't come to you, take the mountain to Mohammed. Get your horses in front of the riders--either in person or on videotape.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2003, 10:46 AM

I would also like to say that fear of criticism is not the way I work. I only have time to take my young stock to one or 2 shows a year. I choose Dressage at Devon. In years past I have won classes at the smaller "feeder" shows, and championships, but I go to Devon because I want scores from Top judges, both US and European to compare/check how my program is going. I usually take ALL of my foals from that year, not just a select few of the best that the larger breeders bring. I do this because I want to know. Some years, we may not come away with a ribbon, but I can leave there knowing my only filly was 11th out of 43, and Iron Spring Farm's only filly shown was 36th. Or that she placed higher than all 3 of a top Importer's fillies - and she was not quite 3 months, and out of my only TB mare. My stallion's first colt placed 3rd in 1999 beating all of Hilltop's colts including 5 Riverman, and 2 Contuccis. I know what Hilltop is producing, so it is an opportunity for me to check that my unlicensed stallion's offspring really are the quality I think they are, and not that I have blinders on.

I can produce this quality, but I don't have the funds to keep them for 5 years and make them into "ready to show" riding horses. So, I ask again, should I quit breeding?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:04 AM

CM Frank
Tell me where to go. Do I take them to Upperville, and hang out by the jumper warmup - maybe stop the riders coming out of the ring? Say, "Please will you just look at this foal in case you might be looking in the future" or maybe since I am already at Devon, just go over near the guards at the FEI barn, wait for each rider to head over to school, and walk along with them, showing them what I have for sale? I bet they will think I am a NUT!

Or are we back to the show career for the 5 year olds.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

CM Frank

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:22 AM

I'm not laughing.

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:42 AM

Denny why don't you READ WHAT YOUR WROTE. And I quote, "The culprit is ignorance - mine,yours, USA Equestrian's, USET's, all of ours. Few of us can actually evaluate a horse, understand what a pedigree really means, or decipher how a pedigree interacts with the horse that possesses it. " Your put EVERYONE in the IGNORANT category.

Earlier you made the following statement, "Many of the Americans who do breed horses seem to do so almost on a whim, rather than out of a clear sense of what kind of foal they wish to produce. They may be infatuated with a certain breed, a certain sire line, or a certain color. But they'll fail to evaluate the stallion's or the mare's actual soundness, conformation and movement, or to clearly understand what either of them did, or more often failed to do in some competitive endeavor. ...As a result, throughout the country, we seem to be producing an awful lot of babies that are very hard to sell and, very often, aren't that nice to ride.".

WELL I HAVE TO YELL HERE DENNY - Very often hard to ride? Based on what information and statistics?????????????????????????? You keep talking off the top of your head. Our mares get evaluated and we KNOW their conformation scores and we know the scores of the stallions and we GET OUR FOALS SCORED TO GET PAPERS.

And by the way someone could accuse you of being infatuated with a certain breed or sire line - that isn't necessarily a BAD THING.

And we aren't PARANOID about what the top riders have to say. Stop making us into some sniveling cry babies the way another USAEQ committee member did on this thread. I talk to top trainers and riders all the time. Most of the Dressage people have "connections" in Europe and bring over (with FEW EXCEPTIONS) horses that are at least showing at about 2nd level and schooling 4th. I can name the FEI riders who actually will show a horse below PSG at recognized shows. Perhaps that should be a pre-requisite for your survey of FEI Dressage riders.

As far as the Jumper people - what we have gleaned is they just want a horse that can clear the fences and is sound and has MILEAGE. Breed, color, parentage, even papers don't make much difference to them. If they cut it over the big stuff they campaign them if the horse doesn't they sell them. Very few have breeding sheds at home to produce their own stock. And as I stated above they go to Europe because well trained riders have put ground work and gymnastics on the young jumpers - so the riders here don't have to do it or pay someone else to do it.

And the eventers seem to want OTTB's that they can pick up cheap and re-train or Three Day horses from England or Ireland with lots of mileage.

We are fighting to get OUR NAMES attached to the horses we breed - if we were afraid of the quality we are producing WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD WE FIGHT SO HARD TO HAVE OUR NAMES ATTACHED TO EVERY HORSE WE BREED FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE??????????? Remember Denny - if our name as Breeder goes into the system - it's there for better or worse for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health and we stay hooked on past death! We are married to the identity of Breeder of that horse. If we were shaking in our shoes that some top 'American rider was going to criticize us and send us running back to our COTH stallion issue in tears why would be fighting so hard to tear off the cloak of anonymity???????????????

And unless you've not considered it - horses don't reach Olympic level in three years - some take 10 - (some unfortunately are pushed earlier and go off the radar screen never to be seen again). The first wave of high quality sporthorses bred in the USA has yet to fully impact our market - so if you want to play the part of analyst - then understand (I did it professinally in the financial world) - your emphatic statements are only as good as your assumptions and data ........I think you took a flyer here in this article and won't admit you didn't really look at any real hard data. If you did where for all of our sakes did you get it?????? There currently is no data base.

To look at the "Team" horses, their sires, (I dont' even think you can find the dam or breeder information) and ran with that test sample - well I can tell you professionally it is NOT a valid samplying upon which to make such sweeping conclusions.

We all want to move on with getting information attached to horses - alot of horses get sold with performance records that can NEVER be verified - people rely upon trainers, agents, owners that the horse really did what they say it did. Now is the opportunity to lay the foundation to make it easy to verify that. And when horses do well in any discipline the name of the breeder will be there in black & white.

I'll make sure you get a copy of the ISR/OLDNA Breeders Guide. Take the time to look at the rules/regs, scoring of the foals, how the mares are scored - what it means. How the stallions are doing with their foal production, the Star Award program for stallions and mares - the Mare Performance Test requirements. If we were shivering sniveling cream-puffs that are afraid to go up against the "big boys" why would we even put ourselves through this process. We could jump a TB stallion and a TB mare - send off the DNA and get full JC papers (I know I've bred TB's) and the only thing would matter would be if they could run or go on to become sporthorses DOWN THE ROAD - but until then there wouldn't be a single critical eye placed on that horse.

Laurie@CBF

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:49 AM

I think that it would actually be more informative to get the top horses "biographies". Rarely does an Olympic rider have that horse all it's life. They can only comment on what they have to work with at the time. I am talking about the kind of biography that was written about Rox Dene when she was horse of the year. It was an in depth article that included her "baby years". One thing I remember was that she had a little issue as a youngster (I think a small OCD finding at one time). Obviously the owner was patient, gave the horse time - and what a star she became.

What happened to the horse "every step of the way" and the decisions that were made would be much more enlightening than the top riders saying that the US ( in general) can't get US bred horses to the level they want to ride them at. As far as I am concerned - all you will hear from the top riders is that Europe prepares them better..... which I know already http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:54 AM

Daryln - you made me laugh - we need to all get really big trench coats with pockets and carry tons of video tapes of our horses in them and slink around the stable areas with fedoras - curling an outstretched finger toward us with a wink while saying "hey! You wanna buy a nice American sporthorse?" and then open up the coat!

Hey don't laugh when I was in Germany I had a guy pass me copies of papers of horses he had for sale at the auction - with a wink he said "Wanna buy a horse?"

This is so crazy. If anyone knows people who are professional breeders we spend our lives networking for contacts and quite honestly the BEST advertising we have is our own horses that are sold and being ridden. That's what sells our other horses.

I'd also like to point out here folks that the entire industry is depressed - all breeds and in Europe as well. So that's why it's critically important for MIS-INFORMATION to be corrected if it appears in major publications by recognizable names in the horse community.

Laurie@CBF

Jul. 4, 2003, 11:59 AM

One of the major "barriers" to young horse sales in the US is the buyers need for a pristine pre-purchase exam. Europe (with all it's wisdom http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) is much more lenient. Buyers are willing to accept minor findings - without beating the price down 90%.

The information as to whether these young horses (before they became famous) were vetted in Europe (and what the findings were - as youngsters) would be extrememly helpful in helping breeders and buyers of young prospects get a more realistic picture of what to expect on a young horse PPE.

Ashemont

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:03 PM

I certainly am not attacking anyone and I think it would be interesting to hear what some top riders have to say about American-breds. But if they have not seen MY foals - or the foals of others posting here - I wonder how relevant their comments will be?

I KNOW that many American breeders are producing horses of comparable quality to Europe. Last year the inspectors even requested photos of my 3 year old Pikör daughter so they could take them and show the German breeders what the ideal should be! But that isn't going to help me get this mare's outstanding 2003 colt in front of a top American rider. So can you please tell me how we get their attention?

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:11 PM

Good point on the PPE exams. Here the young horses (actually any horse) has to be perfect in anyway and Vets are fearful of litigation so they disclose even tiny imperfections. Then the buyers who in many instances aren't that knowledge just head for the next farm.

Several of us breeders have discussed how we are the "hawkeyes" on the side of the rings. We are the ones who can tell you just about every conformation flaw on the top horses - we look at these details so much we often miss the performance! But what we try to see is how much it did or did not affect their performance.

Yet we have people come to look at young horses for various disciplines (most of these people are not headed to the Olympics - not that that's a problem) but even the smallest flaw that doesn't affect the horse's movement, etc. pointed out by their trainer or Vet and they keep on shopping. But we see the same people import a horse (sometimes one they've never even sat on) through the same trainer and boy don't you think we all run to see that purchase and do we see a perfect horse - NO! But it was Vetted in Europe and it was IMPORTED.

mbp

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:13 PM

Cheryl - now you know a better place to go to get some responses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 2+2+2+2 ......

Denny: I hope that you do not walk away from this long thread with your only gut response being that US breeders are afraid of criticism. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif You have to admit that an article that basically tells buyers that if they have more than the price of an OTTB to spend, they should go overseas where the breeders know something, is like a kick in the gut for a lot of US breeders.

Without regard, to whether you believe that or not personally, it seems that some of the primary functions of the committee would be to support excellence in US BREDS, provide for recognition of breeder excellence, and provide venues for informing and improving US breeders and their product. Putting aside your opinion of US breeders, as a committee member do you not see a lot of good suggestions in this thread for ways to address some of the functions of the committee? Or, maybe you see the suggestions, but also see reasons why they are NOT good ideas?

I do like your idea for dealing with some top riders and getting their input. I hope that you will include in that interview some of the names breeders have mentioned here that they respect - such as Hilda Gurney and Rodney Jenkins. As mentioned above and as any pollster or statistician can point out - how you phrase the question greatly affects the response you receive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif While responses will be interesting - how many horses are these riders buying annually? Of bigger interest to a lot of breeders is why so many ammies are buying overseas - the $$ affect us more. So your target group and your target questions themselves will be interesting, and a part of the story, but by no means the MOST interesting and the BIGGEST part of the story, to a lot of breeders, for the many reasons they have explained in this thread.

BTW - Heather, Robby et al - I am going to unashamedly admit to not only buying OTTBs, and appendix breds from the QH track, but to not having soundness issues with the ones I bought (only 6 over quite a few years and of course, knowing the track vet VERY WELL and doing a really thorough vetting, and knowing the soundness of siblings, etc. helped) Just put one down at 32 last year - he started looking a little stiff at 29. Here is a point I think we breeders might miss. The riders, young riders in particular, who are willing to purchase and "deal" with the temperament and soundness issues of the OTTB, often become the "horsemen" for whom we lament the passing, and often become the patient, well rounded (although not FEI renown) trainers who can help us out down the line with starting our youngsters. These are often the riders who develop feel and finesse, and not just a pretty perch or a wardrobe of full seats. Personally, I am actually glad there are those groups of riders who absorb some of the post-track horses. They stand a good chance of learning a boatload about horses. How many riders that we admire today didn't spend time dealing with the horses no one else wanted? The tough rides, the cheap rides? Maybe a few became great horsemen with just fancy ponies and imported FEI schoolmasters or already top of the line hunters and jumpers, but it seems a lot of the best paid some dues.

I don't think Sporthorse breeders need to sweat a lot of blood worrying about "losing" sales to riders who are buying OTTBs. In the sporthorse world, the segment of riders that relies on purchases from the track is not huge. My biggest concern is not that this group isn't buying my horse(s), but rather that due to costs of land and insurance and boarding etc. - that we will lose this group entirely. I think we need them.

As for the "sides" of the issue on knowledge and product:

Whether US breeders are crotchety, know-nothing idiots who live in fear of having their ignorance exposed and who expect accolades for producing crap

- VS -

Whether US breeders are producing the top horses in the world and the committee is just too stupid to know what is going on in the real breeding world

Most of us are nowhere near those polar extremes.

Most of us aren't looking for a fight.

Most of us have respect for both members of the committee and breeders who have criticisms of the committee.

Most of us don't want to waste effort on arguing whether or not we are idiots or idiot savants.

We just want to identify problems and have someone with the authority to help us implement suggestions that will make things better.

Twinkletozzz

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:16 PM

Well, I've read this entire thread and thought and pondered. I really think that what Mr. Emerson is offering at this point is appropriate and reasonable and fair. He has access to half dozen or more top riders (which I don't) and he has indicated a willingness to pose the question to them and pass along what they have to say. Frankly, I'm looking forward to receiving that feedback.

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:19 PM

A Quote that most breeders live by:

"It takes a long time to bring excellence to maturity". Syrus 1st c. BC

ise@ssl

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:23 PM

What's important from the breeders side is '
What are the Questions that will be asked? As was pointed out the syntax in the question and lead the response.

I'm hoping someone would ask all of them "If you were looking for a really well bred American sporthorse for your discipline - where would you go to see one or who would you contact? and WHY? Though I fear they might just name the "big breeding farms" - at least it would be encouraging to know the riders knew those farms and what they bred.

And I'd pay money to know where Denny came up with the sweeping statment that our American bred horses ..."very often,aren't nice to ride." That statement just amazes me - and I know many a read of the COTH will quote it - unfortunately.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:26 PM

Pat, I totally agree, they have not seen MY foals.

I do believe that many people breed on a whim, not understanding conformation and bloodlines, but I don't call them Breeders. To me it is like the difference between a "horseman" and someone that rides horses.

I do feel we always need to learn, and I would love to hear what the top people feel will give a horse that extra something to make them a top competitor. However, if those people are not going to look at 40 horses (like most people do when buying), they certainly are not going to take the time to raise a yearling, even if in the long run, it will save megabucks.

I can understand the reluctance to raise a foal. It takes a long time, and a lot of work. I will sell them as foals if I can, and the few that stay until 3, I will send to a wonderful (actually Intermediate Event rider) to start. She does an excellent job. She will have them w/t/c and jumping quietly around 18" jumps within about 2 months. At that point, I just can't scrape the funds to continue training and add a show record. A decent rider can take them at that point and have them ready to begin to show within a month or 2 (schooling shows - just need time and mileage). I also have about $8000. cash invested. I offer the 3 year olds for $10,000.

Even if I could raise the money to place them with a trainer, could I recoup my investment? Would the 4 year old that is showing sell for $25,000.?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Jul. 04, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]

mbp

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Would the 4 yo that is showing sell for $25,000.00? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO - yes.

Wouldn't a sales survey with # and $$, for weanling, yearling, 2yo, 3-4yo unstarted, 3-4yo going(divided by disciplines), be great tool to help you make that decision though? Auction info would give you this - but since we don't have that - wouldn't some type of survey base be good?

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:37 PM

That survey would be great, but I still just couldn't afford to send them.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Allyn M

Jul. 4, 2003, 12:56 PM

I finally sorted through my pile of unread Chronicles and I am adjusting my flame suit,but I definitely agree with him. I cannot seriously see that he was criticising the breeding industry as a whole but just that we have a lot to learn and that is true. As I analyze his article the first paragraph is very true . Most of the riders do not know nor care about the breeding. The BWP had a standing son of Alme approved in the USA being shown in California for quite a while before he died. His owners were collecting him and showing him and sent to us collection after collection of dead semen ,before I finally gave up. I'm not sure they knew what a genetic jewel they had as they were pretty much interested in showing. Only the most dedicated breeders will take the time to research mare lines which is exactly what it takes.
I once took a horse appraisal course in Lexington ,Ky.and spent 3 days at the Fasig - Tipton January sale studying mare lines.During the yearling sales buyers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars based on those mare lines and that is one thing we definitely don't seem to get. We have become stallion obsessed . I see
ads everywhere for stallions that are not approved and who didn't make it overseas so they are sold to Americans to see if they will make it over here. Their parents never did anything and their grandparents never did anything and yet they remain ungelded because people want to have a breeding stallion. The bloodline information is readily available. The mare lines mostly have to be researched. You could breed to the best bloodlines in the world rather reasonably in the sport horse industry .This is not so in the racing industry so we are still able to really make an impact before the really good ones become too expensive.
Everyone makes mistakes in their breeding decisions and my biggest one was knowing a young horse in Belgium that our overseas vet said was good and thinking he was too homely to breed to ( Americans won't buy horses with big heads I said to myself ). I could have purchased lots of semen when he was young and then after I watched him take home the double gold medal in show jumping at Atlanta, I quick called his owners for semen and he had died and no semen for sale. So I made up my mind to find a mare from him to help preserve that bloodline and I found a mare by Jus de Pomme X Ahorn. I regretted the first decision but never the last as her foals will begin their show careers in another two years and we are doing embryo transfers from her each year. They have wonderful canters and can sustain their balance in a small arena around corners just like their grandsire. Performance bloodlines are so important. The winningest horse this year is Royal Kaliber with Ramiro Z X Voltaire bloodlines. Can anyone question the importance of that breeding ? There are so many ways to research performance bloodlines that I can never understand why people don't buy young stock cheaply based on those bloodlines. I have even agreed to pasture board reasonably , foals for people so they don't have to be raised by themselves in a stall.

Part of our problem with evaluation of young stock at the breed shows is that they are shown at the walk and trot and points are many times awarded based on the showyness( is that a word ?) of that trot . The canter never comes into play and for a jumper as well as a dressage horse that is a very important gait.

I have bred quite a bit to a stallion that gave me goose bumps and made me cry the first time I saw him at the Dutch stallion selections.He was ( I think ) 2nd in the young horse championships
in jumping and then went into dressage where he made a name for himself.He breeds both jumpers and dressage horses and this year even had a contestant that placed 25th ( I think ) at Rolex.His name is Olympic Ferro and you would be surprised at the quality of his jumping horses.Still reasonable to breed to this horse. So what if he stands in Europe ...... we need the best bloodlines here and if we dont breed to get good mares how are we going to succeed?You are not going to buy the best mares from Europe ,because they are not for sale.

Now that I have read and reread the article I really wish I had been at that seminar as I would have loved to have heard the vet who picks the yearlings for the sales. I have Dewitt Owens video on that and it is so informative . so.o.o.o I have my flame suit on now and I think we all have a lot to learn.Thanks to all who put on the seminar. Did you make a video ??

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)