Report from the USAE Breeders Committee

[Fairview Horse Center]

Ok, Jane RUN http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and with all of the Warmblood babies, mares, stallions, live cover, etc. the only thing that has gotten my foot recently is a #*!@&#! 14.0h pony grrr But then again, being a pony, I am quite sure she knew what she was doing.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Ashemont]

Couldn't agree more that this country puts too much emphasis on the stallion. We started with two really, really good imported mares and built from there. We developed our own mare line - correct, pretty horses that can really MOVE (and we've got the championship ribbons and Elite mare awards to prove it). BUT... our horses have to have good temperaments above all else as our biggest market is adult amateur. Rideablility is also high on our list.

Our horses are BRED to be sporthorses. I have never understood why some people persist in trying to ride these horses with the fancy big gaits that are impossible to sit. A correct horse should not only have the lovely gaits but they should be fun and easy to ride. And that's what we breed.

FWIW the filly out of the TB mare (who is the spitting image of her momma) is the one who always steps on me and slams me with her head. She's going down the road - too much TB. My WBs are all much more careful of 'mom'.

We have frequently been asked about our success in consistently producing Premium foals (and I don't where someone found those Premium foals who had no quality - what Keuring were you at?). Our secret is our mare line. We have wonderful stallions who do well at improving a mare (wouldn't have any other kind of stallion BTW) but it's the ladies who have given us these wonderful babies who are so talented but yet so easy that any decent amateur can break and train.

And I would put far more worth on a Keuring score than a show win. The judge at the show is judging just that particular moment - and even the worst foal can have a good day. We even had one judge at a sporthorse breed show who awarded the highest scores to the most mannerly horses! These were BABIES! Consequently the ones that just jogged along quietly won the classes and the big movers who got a little exhuberant didn't place! Keuring inspectors are looking for far more and in my experience most of them can see future potential. Thus a Premium tells me my breeding program is on track and I'd much rather have that than a ribbon in the show ring.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

[Ashemont]

Oh Ms Hunter just a thought... if you don't like the brands then buy chestnuts. They tend to fade out and on some of them you actually have to shave the hair to see the brand. Something that I'm sure would please you but sure disappoints me...

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

[MsHunter]

Ah no thanks Ashemont, I breed my own and have no need for the branding. Again, I breed for the show ring, so I am most happy getting results in that venue. To each his own.
What have your horses gone on to do after their premium scores on the triangle thingy?
What disciplines are they involved in and winning at? J/C. Love to hear what breeders horses are doing in their respective disciplines and awards they may be winning.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[MsHunter]

I guess I fall into Dennys ignorant breeder category afterall. I do NOT know what a sporthorse breeding show is and I don't think I will ever have the need or time to go to one. Like I said earlier, hunters are my game and that is what I breed and train for. All the customers that send me horses know that they have to meet with my approval regardless of their scores if they have one. I know whether it has a chance at the shows we attend like Devon, Upperville, IHF East and Finals to name a few. Of course, I hope when we finish the in hand stuff we move through the performance divisions too. If they wind up to be jumpers later that is OK too, but they better jump big sticks !!!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[TQ]

I have hosted huge KWPN keurings and earned highest Premiums and "Top in North America" ratings. I also show in Hunter Breeding and show hunters and jumpers. I recognize the value of each venue. I also am aware of some weaknesses. I host an ISR inspection most years and assist my clients who choose to participate. They also have the opportunity to choose the KWPN COP or Register B and not attend an inspection. Since most of my mare owners are breeding for the show ring they prefer not to participate in Inspections and choose the KWPN paper work without inspection. The drawback is that breeders who look at the ISR star ratings and inspection results could get the impression that my stallion either produces very few foals or that they don't earn Premiums. The information from the inspections is only as accurate as the percentage of foals presented to that registry. Since the mare owner has freedom to choose their registry it dilutes the information on my stallion in each registry. By giving mare owners choices do I eliminate the interest from the breeder who bases their selection on the star ratings? Come to the horse shows. Watch our foals win and see how nice they are to handle. You may not need for someone else to tell you which horses you like. I will continue to support the ISR and the KWPN and to learn from them. I already know that we produce lovely, athletic horses with great dispositions that win. The inspectors and the judges know it too....but the cold statistics in the star ratings don't show it. What to do?

[MsHunter]

GREAT POST TISH!!!

I wouldn't be concerned at all about the "ratings". When I thought about it, I was going to go to this site (nothing against the site or host) and compete against a few horses from my neighborhood at an ASTRONOMICAL COST. WHY? I don't know. I just know that I was going to leave with an Oldenburg (I think?)
and papers. That was what I was going to "purchase". I know what I have, and I know I like it, and I know I can show it market it and sell it. And I am a trainer who owns a farm and therefore I am inheritantly poor, so I'd have to do this and be completely sold on the idea it did something for my horse. Well, the truth is, I don't want ANYONE to buy my horse based on a "premium" or a high score or whatever it is. I want someone to buy it because it moves and jumps good and it's gorgeous to boot. My experience was a month later I sold the one foal and it went on with it's owner to be the Non Tb breeding Champion at Upperville and she will continue to train and promote it until it is sold. Those are the buyers I want, how about you?

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[Ashemont]

Our late stallion Pikör was showing FEI - we bred him. Our current stallion Welt Marke is schooling all GP movements and currently competing successfully at 4th level (he's only 7 so we don't want to push him) - we bred him AND his mom. His mom, Freiluft, won several championships in-hand and u/s before we sold her. She has been exported to Germany and we've lost track of her. Our youngest stallion, AB Phoenix, was the High Score RPSI Champion Horse at the Raleigh Breed Show last year. He's just 3 and will start an u/s career this year. My 4 year old riding horse (I bred her mom and dad both) had won championships in-hand and u/s. She's also presented us with a colt that I think is one of the finest we've produced. These are only the horses we've kept.

Of the horses we've sold we've had them winning in dressage, eventing and hunters. Although we get pictures and updates occasionally I'm afraid I don't have all the show results. We try to sell our horses by the time they are 2. A lot of the horses are limited by their owners/riders but they are still talented horses who take care of the person on their back.

We have had sufficient wins in the show ring to bear out the Premium awards. Unfortunately showing is very expensive... $500/weekend for ONE horse! So we are limited in just how much we can show them.

And I meant the chestnut thing as joke... just teasing you. I know the hunter folks prefer no brand and I've actually refrained from branding a couple of babies that were destined to go that route http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

[ise@ssl]

Ms Hunter - I think you are confused about what the inspections really evaluate. The foals presented are not "competing against just a few". The ISR/OLDNA has about 450-500 foals presented each year in the country. The people judging them are seeing hundreds of foals yearly. Their eye is not doing a comparative analysis against what's presented that day - they are evaluating the horses individually against the standard. The foals called back to the premium ring are seen against each other - but that's pretty much like the call backs in shows. The final score on those foals is given and many don't make premium in that final analysis.

Our older horses are in performance - most started by Amateur Owners - moving up the ranks in all disciplines.

FYI - I think the prejudice against the brand in the Hunter ring is waning. Too many WB's are competing in hand and over fences in the Hunters and doing very very well. As an example MS Hunter. Our 3 yo Gable by Grande Saber out of our TB mare Combat Sweetheart (Winged T) was a premium foal. He was purchased as a yearling by a woman in CO who loved that sire and who is EXCLUSIVELY involved in the Hunters. He's been turned out for two years to grow up - was put on a trailer for a 4 hour trailer rider to back to back Hunter and Sporthorse Shows. He won the 3 yo colt/gelding class (he's a gelding) in the Hunter Class judged by Ray Francis. And then went on to be Reserve champion in the Sporthorse Show - I believe same class - with the judge commenting it was very close and he did have the better movement - was slightly lighter in bone. (which BTW matched the evaluation at his Inspection as a foal!). Not bad for his FIRST SHOW. We did nominate him to the IHF - so we'll see how he does in the future. So the foal scoring is not a waste of time and more often than not gives very good analytical scores. Are there exceptions? Sure. But as breeders we know that - some get better - some actually get worse as they grow.

All of our WB's are branded - so in Gable's case it didn't seem to matter. And quite honestly - why should it?? A judge who won't pin a horse because he's branded should turn in their judge's card IMHO. It's bias - pure and simple.

Breeders have to decide what system works for them as far as feed back for their breeding program. Having outside "eyes" evaluate your horses is IMHO invaluable - whether you use shows or inspections or individuals or any/all of these. If you feel you've got a good thing and don't need any change to your program then that's great. Some registries score foals, some don't, some (as pointed out) don't even require inspections. We bred through that registry and found we just didn't have enough data to make breeding decision.

But Breeder recognition helps all breeders and a data base of pedigree and performance helps all horse people - not just breeders. That's why we need it YESTERDAY!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Twinkletozzz]

Ashemont, continuing the branding thing, does RPSI or AWS require a brand? TIA!

[Hexel]

I think the brands are a little distracting but you do not ride the brand. It is a tradition and way of seperating the warmbloods to those observing them. I absolutely feel the same about a horse not being pinned for a brand. If everything else is there, they should get the top place. Some may use it as a tie breaker, they use blemishes as tie breakers as well. But to not give a horse their due for a brand or blemish, IMHO is not the right thing. Those things should not have any effect on their performance, and the final goal is a performance horse. Except for QH halter horses I believe.

[ise@ssl]

Question for CFrank - will the USDF & USAEQ go to ONE ID # for each horse - i.e. use the same number system? As I understand it right now - the horse needs an ID # from each.

[MsHunter]

I agree, the horse shouldn't be prejudiced against due to the brand. I am simply stating I'd rather not have the brand to begin with, I have shown horses with brands and it never did hurt them. This is a personal preference. I'd be careful talking about blemishes though. Some horses have blemishes others have conformational defects who under a less than stellar judge could be interpreted as a blemish when maybe it is a curb or a splint or "something" indicating a particular weakness in a horses overall conformation. NJbreds in fact have a rule stating that blemishes are not to count, I applaud them for that, as they are trying to promote breeding of hunters in NJ. ON another note, if you clinic, learner or spend time with the best of the best, you really can learn about then weighing out the faults you see on particular horses against one another. Rodney is WONDERFUL at this.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[MsHunter]

Cheryl I have kind of an interesting idea (being a former scientist LOL). What if we tried a case study on a few different disciplines with particular horses from active breeders on this board. Say we get volunteers to "allow" their horses progress to be recorded, ownership changes to be provided and get a first hand view of a horse from cradle to grave (so to speak) but say a 5-8 year study on
5-10 horses for each discipline and we can see what really happens. It would be great if we can have the vet and farrier reports, the nutritional information, the show records and the comments from the owners and trainers along the way. Am I crazy for suggesting this?
I'd volunteer at least one of mine (may be a pony, but what the heck they count too don't they?)!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[Thalia4Welsh]

While I am currently a pony, not a horse, breeder, I have lurked on this thread with tremendous interest as we all have mutual concerns. Cheryll is my heroine for the listing of sires and dams (and I have seen dams' sires listed along with them on some) and I am confident that she will also prevail in getting breeders listed in the data base as well. Yes, USAE is NOW performing a service for US that our own registries can not, namely getting this information compiled & out TO A HUGE READERSHIP
available 24/7/365 on the internet. With the ID numbers all can can be listed free of charge via the interenet as well. Wow! I never thought I'd see this much progress in my lifetime!

We have also had a breeders' symposium at a location which drew together learned presenters, top competition horses, and numerous "hungry" listeners. So, the presenters did not all have the same viewpoints - that is human nature and that can be "healthy" as well. Let's not minimize the very fact of this monumental beginning for additional symposiums for other disciplines and held where again there will be a large draw.

However one interprets Denny's "mediocre" designation of U.S. breeders, let us not forget that he has come to this forum for suggestions. Let's give him positive ones, not tirades about times past. Our greatest difficulties, it seems to me, are the perennial ones of TRAINING and MARKETING.- in these areas breeders could be seen as "mediocre".

The excellent prospect or more finished animal will arrive to a future buyer by varied avenues. Frankly, while we as breeders may desire the "validation" of a particular pedigree, registration by a certain organization, an inspection score, or breed ring win along the way, the buyer probably won't give a hang HOW the animal got to this point! That is our affair! WHAT the animal is DOING is the buyer's concern.

HOW do we get from foal to prospect? Decades ago some of the pony people had a great handle on that. Let me cite a piece of history:

"Mary Drury of Fox Hollow Stables was an early VA breeder whose ponies did well for her daughter Terry and other youngsters.
Unfortunately illness curtailed Mrs. Drury's program but her stallion, Fox Hollow Singing Star, went on to Matilda Hebb in Maryland. Mrs. Hebb assembled a group of small TB and retired pony hunter mares to breed to Singing Star. Edna Lytle credits her as "the original crossbred pony breeder for hunters" with "wonderful, wonderful ponies - all good jumpers."
Then Mrs. Hebb worked out a contract arrangement with various families to purchase her crops of six to eight two year olds. Zelda Zimmerman was the first to do this as she had a daughter and four sons to train and show the ponies. Next came Wayne Gowl with his four children and lastly Edna Lytle and her daughters, Cindy and Sandy. The Lytles brought along over 60 yearlings during a ten year period with the last group coming in 1980. All had Star in their names and began with the first letter of the dam's anme - for example, Chase the Stars was out of Cygnet. One year at Harrisburg 29 of the 37 larges were by Singing Star!"

This brings out a suggestion, one that has been brought up here before which I am reinforcing, altho it is probably not a way to see a fast return on one's investment - there must be Pony Clubbers and stable owners who would welcome a partnership of this sort. If we cannot find suitable marketing avenues and are not able to promote our products, then we are not justifying the existence of our breeding programs. We cannot feel sorry for ourselves for working so long and hard with little compensation if our efforts result in a "dead end" That's the old "you asked for it, you got it" isn't it?

IMO we should not get so embroiled in the means (breeding) that we neglect the end (selling our product). Perhaps we need to devote more time reading about and figuring out how to get into the mainstream instead of being so breed specific. And we'd best not whine about the long hours, the expense, the heartbreak - few others, and especially the buyers, are interested in that. (NOT putting the COTH board participants down as this is a MOST compassionate group as a whole!) This thread is saying to me that, while we may be talented as breeders, we well may be "mediocre" as marketers.

If you are asking, "Who is this pony breeder to make all these remarks?" FYI, I have been passionate about ponies for 50 years this year and have seen breeders who were successful and those who weren't - this has shaped my ideas over the years. My husband, daughters, and I have been fortunate in getting many of our youngsters into the right SITUATIONS FOR SUCCESS
for the animals themselves, tho maybe not for our pocketbooks! My dog trainer friend calls these successes the "breeder rewards". WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS?

Our "breeder rewards" have been 6 AHSA Pony Finals Ch or Res Ch from 1996 to 2001 - 4 for homebreds, 1 for a pony my daughter had trained, and 1 for a pony sired by our stallion.
Our "rewards" in Horse of the Year standings are 7 - 4 for a homebred and 3 by our stallion (one by frozen semen).

You will laugh at my "system" - on the COTH covers I list the wins in that issue for our animals. The best ever was a "nine" issue. More breeder rewards!

We considered ourselves as breeders for performance (primarily hunters but dressage, CT, and driving as well) until MsHunter discovered us - and added pony breeding to the list - for which we thank her profusely!


.

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[Hexel]

This is off subject a little. I've always thought of a blemish as something caused by an injury. So please all of you keep me straight.
Some splints curbs etc can be caused by an injury? A horse comes to a sliding stop stretching a tendon thus causing scar tissue and a curb, this same horse is not sickle hocked. Is this curb now a blemish or a conformational defect? How would it be judged? The horse is sound and moves great. Would this be a tie breaker situation? Now if the horse was sickle hocked and had curbs would they have conformtion faults as well as blemishes, caused by the conformation fault as opposed to injury?

The same may hold true for splints, was the horse trained to quickly for it's fitness? Did they take a bad step, knock one leg into the other playing hard. If they are straight ,move straight would this be a blemish? A tie breaker.
Now if they are crooked, have offset knees, toe in or out and have splints are we looking at a conformation defect as well as blemishes caused by the same? I'm not a judge and am curious where the importance is placed?
I am so glad to hear NJ is forgiving of blemishes. I wish more would follow suit. It is tough to let a horse be a horse and not accumulate any jewelry. Hmmmmmm maybe a bubble wrap blanket and matching leg protectors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Sorry this should be a new topic I guess.

[This message was edited by Hexel on Jul. 05, 2003 at 02:46 PM.]

[theponylady]

I have been reading this particular thread with interest.

I've have seen some good questions, and would like to add my thoughts here.

Why do people go to Europe to buy? There are many reasons. One of course is snobbery-if it's imported, it must be "better". That is one of the most minor reasons though. One reason I go to Europe to buy horss is that I have a large number of horses to look at in one place. There are only a handful of areas in the US(Southern California being one of them) where you can go see many horses in a short period of time. For example-I was looking for Connemara ponies. In the US, there are only 5000 or so. Only a handful of that 5000 are going to be the age/sex/quality I want. To look at 20 ponies that might fit my needs, I'm going to have to spend weeks travelling all over the country. In Ireland, I went to one one day horse show(400 ponies, about 50 of those who might suit my needs), a one day sale(about 300 ponies, 20 or so of which might fit my criteria), and on the 3rd day we travelled around to several breeders in the area, looked at about 150 more ponies, about 20 of which fit my criteria. So in 3 days I was able to look at about 90 ponies who fit my criteria. On top of that, if I bought a pony from an approved sale, Ireland offers a buyer's incentive program, where the price of my ticket is reimbursed to me. So I saw 90 ponies who fit my criteria, my plane ticket was free, I stayed either with friends or at B&Bs(about $30 per night). All in all, it was a very productive, very inexpensive trip. The cost of the type of pony I'm looking for here is about the same as the cost of buying and importing a pony from there.

Where are all the trainers who should be starting young horses? Well, there just isn't a lot of money in it. Depending on where you are in the country, a month of board and training on the average is going to be $500 to $1000. You don't make a lot of money on the board and training, not after you pay feed, bedding, maintenance, mortgage or rent, utilities, advertising, taxes, workmans comp, employee saleries, etc. Most trainers actually make their money on going to shows($30 to $100 per day depending on area, and that fee is on top of training), and on consignment fees(you generally make a much higher fee with a lot less work selling broke and going horses as opposed to babies or green horses). It's nearly impossible to start horses and do a good job of it if you are gone to a lot of shows. And if you aren't going to a lot of shows, it's difficult to earn enough money to actually make a decent living. Plus, when people want a trainer to start their horses, they tend to want THAT person to ride the horse. A person can only ride just so many horses in a day, so he's very limited in how many he can take on. That's not so much the case with the trainers going to shows. The customers are often doing the riding and showing, or assitants are riding the horses at home, so the trainer can take on many more horses than he could if he actually had to do all the riding. It's also a lot easier to hire help that can ride the already broke horses, than it is to hire help that can do unbroke or very green horses. Most trainers really want to earn a nice living, just like everyone else, so they tend to lean towards going to horse shows and selling broke and going horses. You can make a lot more money that way.

Also, people tend to not want to spend a lot of money to get horses broke and going. For some reason they are a LOT more willing to pay big dollars to a show horse trainer, but they are CHEAP when it comes to sending off a baby to get started. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, seeing as a proper start can make or break a horse, but it is the way it is.

Why is it so hard to buy good quality animals in the US for reasonable prices? If you look at Europe, you see several things. One, in many countries, stud fees are LOW. You can get your mare covered by a good stallion for $200 in many cases. Often too, the charges are per cycle-if your mare gets in foal on the first cover, your expenses are very little. If it takes several cycles, you pay each time you breed, and your costs go up. That is different from here in the US, where average stud fees to good stallions are $800 to $3000(yes, I'm aware they can be less or a great deal more, I'm just talking average). There is no break if your mare gets in foal right away, and no penalty(having to pay again for each cycle you breed the mare). Also in Europe, AI is not used as much as it is here, and they simply don't do as much vet work to get mares in foal. Most of the time you just take the mare over, get her covered, and take her home. No(or fewer anyway) vet fees, most of the European countries are very small so there isn't a lot of travelling, and if mares don't get in foal, huges sums of money are not generally spent on them to get them in foal. Also, in many parts of Europe they have GRASS most of the year. Horses can live out for the majority of the year at very little cost. Most people in the US don't have that luxury. The horses live out, but they are either on irrigated pasture(it's expensive to irrigate), or are on dirt and ALL feed must be bought. Most breeders in the US don't have good enough grass to where they only need to feed grain(if that). So all in all, our expenses here in the US to raise horses are on the average higher, making it much harder for the small breeder.

Once people realize what it costs to raise a good foal(or a bad foal-as we all know, even breeding the best to the best doesn't guarentee quality), and they discover that people here don't want to pay much money for a foal even if really good quality-they give up breeding. You pretty much have to either have a lot of money to own the very very best in order to get really worthwhile foals nearly every time, or you have to breed in quantity. One of the reasons TBs are so cheap to buy here in the US is that they are still bred in quantity. Breeders make a killing on some, lose money on lots, but come out ahead often enough to keep doing it. We just don't see those types of breeders in non thoroughbred breeds.

Why won't people buy young stock in the US? Several reasons. One of the huge ones is that we here in the US are really into instant gratification. Sad, but true. People want to go out and win ribbons NOW, not in 5 years. They want to show NOW. They don't have the time, or money, to take several years to bring one along. When you can buy a pretty darn nice well started and already showing 8 year old jumper for $35,000, it makes sense to buy it. Most people either don't have the ability, or don't have the time, to train their own youngsters. So if they pay $3-10,000 for a quality yearling, board it out for two years at $200 a month(that's a way cheap figure in many areas), by the time it is 3 they have the purchase price plus board($4800), plus trimming or shoes(let's say every 6 weeks the horse is trimmed and the trim is $25-thats another $800 or so), plus vet bills...Okay, they now have the purchase price of the horse doubled. So their $10000 baby is now a $20000 or so baby. Now it's 3, and they want to get it started and going so they can show it. So now they put it in training for a year. Let's say board and training is $500. 12 months of that is $6000. So their baby is up to $26000. Now it is ready to start going to shows, and you all know what THEY cost. And after all that, you don't know for sure the horse is going to have what it takes to win. You've invested a lot of money, and three years of time, into that yearling.


Suddenly, that $35,000 already broke, going, and proven winner is looking like a pretty good bargain.

Where are all the up and coming young riders? Well, they are out learning how to ride the perfect hunter round, on broke and going ponies. You generally can't win at the upper levels on a greenie, and the kids only have a few years on ponies, so who has the time or money to put a kid on a green pony? You could buy a broke and going one, plop the kid on, and at least get around at the shows, and hopefully win a few here and there. If the pony is good enough, the kid learns to posture and pose and maybe to count stides and make sure the lead changes are there. Oh, and they learn to wear the "right" clothes and use the "right" tack. That's often about it.

In Europe they have a huge pony jumper division. Doesn't matter what your pony looks like, doesn't matter if you have the "proper" equipment, if you can ride well and have a pony that will jump the jumps and go fast enough, you can win. It isn't unusual to see ponies in the pony grand prixs(14 hand ponies with 14 year old kids jumping 4 and a half foot courses are pretty impressive) being ridden by kids who have their hair in pony tails and are wearing rubber boots. Those kids learn to RIDE. They also are allowed to ride stallions, and they learn how to handle ponies of all sexes. If ride jumpers competitively enough, you learn to ride out the rough spots and the problems, problems that the kids who only ride hunters often never even come across. When the pony jumper kids turn 18 and move on to horses, pointing a big horse at a 5 foot fence isn't near as daunting to them, seeing as they've already been riding their 14 hand ponies at close to that height. Our poor pony hunter kids who haven't jumped anything bigger than 3' look at the fences in upper level competition, and they have heart attacks.

The pony jumper divisions in the US are a joke. Most of the time you can't find them. When you do, they are often 2 foot 6 inch fences-big deal. If the kids DO want to move up, they need to be mounted on big horses. Often the big horses are simply too much and too strong for the kids. So they get scared and frustrated. Then they give up. If they could ride ponies that are more their size, to where they could be more comfortable, yet still get to do jumpers and some bigger fences but on animals of a size they can manage, plus they wouldn't have to spend as much money to wear the "right" clothes and have the newest in tack, they'd learn more, get frustrated less, not have to spend so much money, and a lot more of them would go on to become horsemen and upper level riders.

I hope my experiences and opinions help answer some of the questions. I know they will also bring up more questions, and some people won't like what I have to say. Please, no flames. Debate and discussion are good, I welcome them.

Karen Vicencio

[Fairview Horse Center]

Thalia4Welsh
Your statement is exactly correct. I can breed very nice youngsters, I handle them, teach them manners, they are wonderfully friendly, but I am LOUSY at Marketing them.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[mbp]

Great posts from the ponypeople. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Hexel]

The reason we try to keep costs down finding someone to back and start babies, is, to keep the the price of the finished product within reason. This is not being cheap. It is trying to be competitive. Any prudent business person will buy quality for the best price. If the store brand paper plates work just as good as the name brand but are priced alittle less. Well I know what I'll buy. I do not need to pay for all the big ad's. It is fun to find quality that is not always apparent or well known. Those diamonds in the rough.

[MsHunter]

HI Thalia, thanks for joining in, unfortunately I haven't gotten the Helicon boys out to play in the show ring much this year LOL! They are both wonderful in every way though and I sought you out FOR your program as I believe in what you produce.

As an aside, Hexel you and I both know a judge can't "guess" when in the ring, nor should they make an assumption about blemish/defect. If it is there it goes on the card, period end of subject. To say one horse has a curb because of this and another because of that, and this is better than that is not how it works.

A curb is a rupture of the plantar ligament, someone correct me if I am wrong here. Talk to Otis Brown about curbs, talk to Rodney get an old horseman. Watch a horse jump that has curby hocks.. I've yet to see one jump in good hunter form. To me curbs are related to hind end conformation in relation to the rest of the horse or in relation to it's hind legs, thereby causing the injury that made the "blemish" as you put it. Many times it is from too long of a cannon bone in relation to gaskin length, or due to angulation of the hind leg etc. IMHO you see a horse with curby hocks and you also see the reason the horse has gotten them.
Splints are open for debate. New research states a horse "gets" them to create more bone, but that would leave me to believe the horse was too light on bone for it's structure thereby giving the splint in the first place.
Years and years ago when I was young my veterinarians had me use plain old lime to reduce chance of scar tissue formation LOL!!!

I am old enough to remember my veterinarians also crucifying me for not remembering the size of a horses nostrils and putting a fist under their jaw to see that they had a good airway passage and well sprung ribs for the heart and lungs! Now, we are more looking at beauty contests as opposed to REAL conformation in the model classes.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[Hexel]

I thought a splint was a response to injury and inflamation of the splint bone and more bone is laid down in the healing process. Where are the expert vets when you need them. It might be an interesting study maybe it has already been done. To compare heavier boned horses and lighter boned Arabians some Tb's etc and see if there is a corelation in bone size subsatance and the incidence of splints. I learned that certain conformation defects lead to more injuries of this sort due to of lack of balance.
Just think of driving on those out of balance tires. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[pwynnnorman]

May I offer a SOLUTION, folks?

I do think that serious breeders are plenty well-educated. That isn't the problem, Denny.

I do acknowledge how risky and expensive it is to develop a youngster, including getting it show miles. As another breeder/trainer/rider, I'm dealing with that every day--even when you do it yourself, it's still tough as hell.

Ten years ago, in fact, it was easy to get a youngster going w-t-c, doing small courses and quiet and happy at a few local shows before sending it to a larger barn or a trainer with students or an eager rider to get better mileage under and get sold.

Now, it is very hard to find trainer/riders to take on even well-made-up youngsters...

But I fervently believe that they are out there. Not HUGE names, but ambitious, dedicated, gutsy riders who haven't been handed the made horse. The PROBLEM is that the only riders that are KNOWN are the ones with money behind them.

The SOLUTION, imo, is to enable riders without money to become KNOWN. (Boy! Do I hate seeing kids who do A3 shows every weekend earn "developing rider" grants and stuff.) Y'know, you don't have to win, win, win to have talent and knowledge and be able to make a nice horse. But that's the standard that everyone seems to use.

So how about thinking out of that box, for a change. Breeders need to be open-minded and knowledgeable enough to assess the talents of a rider/trainer WITHOUT that person having an extensive show records (because those that do aren't "hungry" enough and/or are too expensive).

Rider/trainers need a way of becoming known to breeders--not just by name, but by "policy" if you will. For example, right now, I have a horse competing with a professional under an arrangement which is financially do-able for both of us. The arrangement is based on the fact that it's a darn good horse--I want the horse to move up and the rider wants to ride a decent horse and maybe get it sold for a decent price along the way.

I just KNOW that our arrangement isn't uncommon. I know that there are professionals out there in desparate need of good hroses, but unable to afford to buy the quality we breeders are indeed producing. It's nearly impossible for them (event riders are a great example) to buy and compete--the funds go either one way or the other.

But a relationship with a breeder can take the big buying bucks out of the picture AND make competing more affordable, too. I'm certain that many rider/trainers have thought of this, but they aren't about to APPROACH someone out-of-the-blue (well, mine did--not quite out-of-the-blue, but it WAS her idea, no mine).

So what's the solution? A directory of trainers, that's what. Everyone has seen the tons of horse industry directories out there. Breed associations, state horse councils and even pony clubs put them together to provide information.

Well, why the HECK can't the USAEq do the same? Why can't our National Governing Body DO SOMETHING to help the industry and show some foresight, for once? Allow FREE listings indicating the level of training, level of competition, facilties available, arrangements suported (exchanges, fee-based, partnerships, swaps, etc.) for anyone and everyone. Pay for it with advertising, jsut like most directories do. Or put it online in a table where a breeder could quickly skim to their state or area code and see if there's a trainer/rider who takes on green (or made, or problem, or whatever) horses and under what conditions.

One of the problems with our industry is secrecy. No one knows who does what for how much or not because there is no means to know. Some don't WANT others to know...but you better believe that there are those who DO what it to be known that they can undercut so and so's prices and do jsut as good a job, if not better.

LIST PRICES AND FEES in the directory. It'll become commonplace soon enough that those who are workable individuals, not hot-shots and/or spoilt brats, are OPEN with their fees/policies and other traits. Let market forces rule and you'll see a whole new game open up. IMO, THAT is that a NGB can do: lead the way to change. Follow models already in place and LEAD THE WAY TO CHANGE!!!

Now, will anyone actually DO anything about any of this? I doubt it.

Sportponies Unlimited
Now in New Jersey, 30 mins. south of Philadelphia, PA.
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Well, why the HECK can't the USAEq do the same? Why can't our National Governing Body DO SOMETHING to help the industry and show some foresight, for once? Allow FREE listings indicating the level of training, level of competition, facilties available, arrangements suported (exchanges, fee-based, partnerships, swaps, etc.) for anyone and everyone. Pay for it with advertising, jsut like most directories do. Or put it online in a table where a breeder could quickly skim to their state or area code and see if there's a trainer/rider who takes on green (or made, or problem, or whatever) horses and under what conditions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

USCTA used to do a directory like this. I don't know why they stopped, but it was incredibly useful.

In California, there is a directory called the California Horseman's Directory (http://www.cahorse.com/) that serves this purpose also. It does not have the uniformity of information that the USCTA directory did (which included years of experience, highest level competed, instructors worked with, facility info, etc) but at the very least it is a listing of people who call themselves trainers with simple advertisements and addresses and phone numbers.

[pwynnnorman]

Yes, Poltoon, that is exactly the directory "model" I was thinking of. Imagine the resource it would be if it were available online, covered ALL disciplines and became known to all--members and non-members alike?

Sportponies Unlimited
Now in New Jersey, 30 mins. south of Philadelphia, PA.
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

[carolin]

Have been following this discussion with great interest. As a breeder/trainer of American bred and branded horses and having bred the only American Warmblood on USAE's short list for the World Championships of Young Dressage Horses, Raison d'Etre, I have to say that American bred horses are competitive (ours are by an American bred stallion out of mostly American bred mares). Last year, our homebred 3-year-old colt Roi Soleil D, a half-brother of Raison d'Etre, both by Regulus, was HOY in the 3-year-old division with a median score of 80%. So, they can be bred here.

We hold cost down by using our own stallions/mares and raising them in a no-frills way. The youngsters are out 24/7/365 in fields with run-in sheds and round bales of hay. No grain from yearling to 2-3 year old, just good pasture and hay. They grow healthy, tall and strong. At 3, we bring them from the big back field (some at 2 if they look good enough to show in breed shows, but most of them are still too ugly :-) to show at that age) to the front to start them.

Now from what I hear, many of you do your own groundwork. Same with us. I used to back them myself, but, like many of you, I'm not getting any younger, and I don't bounce so well any more.... I found a great resource in exercise riders from the track. Any of you living close to a race track should consider those riders. They stick well, are used to lots of antics, and often are quite decent riders. Once your young horse lunges well under tack, have an exercise rider come out to your farm for about 4 weeks to back the youngster. By that time they should easily w/t/c wherever you want them to. That's when I take over myself and further their training. Another month or so, and any amateur can get on and try the horse. It's not finished, but it goes quietly, turns, steers, etc.

That's what the TB farms do here, have exercise riders come out and back the yearlings for a few months, and presto, they're track ready. Works just fine with warmbloods, too.

Re: marketing - a web page helps, use of search engines like dreamhorse.com. Also, we keep in touch with every owner of a Regulus foal, track them when they get sold, encourage people to show, and get talented ones in the right hands for possibly less money than we could get on the open market to make sure they're seen. Our average price for started 3-year-olds is $15,000, and that's competitive enough with Europe that we can sell the youngsters.

Naturally, the best advertisement is word of mouth - if the youngsters are easy to ride/handle, people will come back to get more or send others to buy/breed.

Lest anybody think we just do horses: all of us involved in DreamTime Farm (4 permanent plus working students) have full-time jobs in addition to taking care of the 35-horse farm.

Carolin Walz
www.dreamtimefarm.com (http://www.dreamtimefarm.com)

[theponylady]

The problem with that is, it costs money. Often more than a new up and coming trainer can afford. Or more than someone who just plans to do a few horses cares to pay. And if you miss the deadline for some reason, you have to wait a year to get in.

It would be nice if USAE could put an online listing of all trainers who are members. Make it one of the perks of being a member.

&lt;&lt;&lt;In California, there is a directory called the California Horseman's Directory (http://www.cahorse.com/) that serves this purpose also. It does not have the uniformity of information that the USCTA directory did (which included years of experience, highest level competed, instructors worked with, facility info, etc) but at the very least it is a listing of people who call themselves trainers with simple advertisements and addresses and phone numbers.[/QUOTE]

Karen Vicencio

[theponylady]

Getting the best value for your money is a wise thing to do. What I see as a problem though is that so many people will pay $1000 a month to a "show" trainer to keep a horse in training, yet those SAME people will refuse to pay that much to a good colt starter. Then they wonder why there just aren't that many of them out there. A lot of those good trainers started off their careers starting colts, but they learned they could make more money with less strain to their bodies by doing the shows. So they quit doing colts, hit the shows, and start making a nice living.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hexel:
The reason we try to keep costs down finding someone to back and start babies, is, to keep the the price of the finished product within reason. This is not being cheap. It is trying to be competitive. Any prudent business person will buy quality for the best price. If the store brand paper plates work just as good as the name brand but are priced alittle less. Well I know what I'll buy. I do not need to pay for all the big ad's. It is fun to find quality that is not always apparent or well known. Those diamonds in the rough.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karen Vicencio

[Hexel]

Karen, I see the challenge as, paying someone 1000.00 a mo. to back and start a baby and sell them for what you have in them. I would jump and pay 1000.00 a mo training board gladly to someone capable if I could recoup it. Hence the problem of paying large amt's to start babies.
I do not begrudge the hard work it is full of lumps and bumps. These are some of our most valuable horse people, they can make or break what a horse becomes. Be too soft and you get a pushy ill mannered one, be to tough they can get mean and resentful. It takes a ton of talent to know when to quit for the day, how firm to be, how to build confidence in a young horse, how to stick a tough one and handle them when they are trying everything bad without temper.

I'm with Carolin,she has the key maybe for me at least. I've been thinking more and more give these young horses good feed, worm them, trim them but let them just grow up at minimal cost.
I will heed the advice of checking out exercise riders, they are a tough bunch. I know an amateur rider that rode at the track and he starts his own young horses. He does a great job, now to get him to go pro. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Twinkletozzz]

I'm on Carolin's page, have been all along. My h/j foal this year is turning out nicely - to nice to sell as a weanling unless some show home buyer appears - so I'll send him to the farm and turn him out with my old retiree and his mum (after weaning) and let him grow up on grass, good hay in the winter, and minerals/vitamins, vetting, farriery, and daily handling. The frills of the fancy barn are done at weaning time. I will probably take him to an inspection as a yearling, and to the IHF, I'll have him backed and started by a dependable local for 60 days max, and then back to the farm with me. I rode young TB's when I was a college student years ago and I still reschool the greenies periodically so I'm comfortable doing it. Advertisements locally and regionally, advertising on a registry website, and probably not my own website for a while. That's the plan. Hope it works!

[Khamian Farms]

Was going to add my 2 cents, but it would have been a repeat of some of the points Thalia and Karen already made - though not as articulate.

Well said, Ladies, and very good food for thought.

Cheers, ~Julie~
www.caspianpony.com (http://www.caspianpony.com)

[jackie]

Just a clarification of sorts. I would say that calling Touch of Class a racetrack cast-off may not be accurate. One could say she may have been born ahead of her time, as she was born before the sporthorse market in the US was born--but she had the next best thing (or better).

As a two and three year old she was sent to the barn of Mikey Smithwick-- the steeplechase Hall of Famer--where she got her basics in jumping and was tried briefly on the flat (a very few starts-what else did you do with a thoroughbred back then?). She spent her time as a two and three year old being ridden by her owner Jennfier Small around the "big field" popping logs and ditches from a walk and trot as part of Mikey's total training program. Not only did Mikey develop young horses but also steeplechase jocks and grand prix jumper riders -- while learning from them at the same time. This all showed in his "all-arounder training" technic. This program made very many succesful jumpers, including several Horses of the Year.

Because of her small size Touch of Class' owner decided to sell her as a show horse prospect to Sylvia Hechtor another great horseman. So she was handled at the very beginning by several good horseman--and given sound basics in jumping before most horses are even broken - with a wise decision being made early on to direct her talents in other areas. This early career was followed by several more great horseman culminating at the Olympics with Joe Fargis. It took a horse with natural talent and talented horseman to make an Olympic champion.

In addition, to call her a cast-off belies the fact that her jumping talent was bred honestly in her bones. Her dam Kluwall was also the dam of Crocidile Tears one of the leading timber horses (placed in 8 out of 13 timber races)and also the dam of Special Memories (Abdullah/Kluwall XX) who competed successfully in grand prixes with earning of close to $50,000.

Kluwall's sire was Cornwall (stakeswinner) also the sire of the good mare Home to Pappa with multiple hurdle stake wins. Kluwall's direct dam line traces to Fifinella, winner of English Oaks and Derby.

Touch of Class is the product of the wonderful thoroughbred mare base we have in this country. I would guess that Kluwall's produce record can stack up to the best of the european mares -two grand prix jumpers and one champion timber horse- from just a few foals.
Best yet--her genes are still jumping in her grandchildren. Only time will tell of any future successes-but, unfortunately, time for a sporthorse breeder waiting for young horses to grow up and mature into competitors, is, practically speaking, measured in decades, not years. We are still striving for that next champion.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Touch of Class's breeder also had a full sibling, "Summer High". We had her booked to Nevada a few years ago, but much to my disappointment, were not able to get her in foal that year. I kept hoping they would try again... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Hexel]

Thank You Jackie, I have a broodmare Pappa's Rival. I liked her pedigree, movement, and correct conformation, but now must do a little more research and see if and how she is related to Touch Of Class through Cornwall.

[jackie]

That would be exciting-I seemed to remember Home to Pappa had several foals herself. She was a big powerful mare. The story goes that her exercise rider use to swim her in the local stream to cool her off after a gallop. Hurricane Agnes came through Maryland making all the streams overflow- her rider rode Pappa down for a look and in jumped the mare. The mare was able to get herself out- but the rider hung on downed trees waiting for a helicopter rescue for hours! (I adored Home to Papa.)

Kluwall herself use to jump out all the time on her own- so there were definitely some jumping genes in the mix.
All these horses were bred by B. F. Christmas, a very savy horseman. B.F. also stood Cornwall's son Towson at stud. B.F raced his own homebreds and accumlated a bit of money (of course we were never sure whether it was from purse money or betting!) Good luck on your research.

[dahlia]

Is the USAE Breeders Committee working with the USDF Sport Horse Breeding Committee?


USDF Sport Horse Breeding Committee (http://www.usdf.org/CouncilCommittee/SportHorse/index.asp)

[CM Frank]

Chairman Scott Hassler is on the Breeders Committee, I am on the Board of the AHHA (Jos Sevriens is Pres.) and Ekkehard, Mary, Judy and Charee call or email me (both positively and negatively) on a regular basis. Also, Janine Malone is a member of the USAE/USDF task force. I speak almost weekly with Sheryl van Gundy, current coordinator of the Federation of North American Sport Horse Registies (Selle Francais NA). Beyond that, I'm not sure what your question is.

[CM Frank]

Point of clarification. The USAE Breeders Committee is not limited to 'sport horses.' USAE represents 26 breeds and disciplines, including Morgans, Arabians, Paso Finos, Saddlebreds, Roadsters, Hackneys, Welsh, etc.

I have often heard the USAE committee referred to as the Sport Horse Committee and that is a misnomer. The committee is dedicated to furthering the goals of all breeders under its umbrella, without prejudice.

[fullmoon fever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
just happened to have a mare, that they bred to a popular stallion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG, how I can relate to that! I have a lovely medium Welsh cob mare. I bought her as a package with her son. He is by a QH stallion. He looks just like a QH with Welsh legs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Nice if you want a cute pony to play around with, but WHY?? Were there no Welsh stallions within 100 miles? A small TB stallion?

He's very nice, quiet and a fun fellow, BUT is this the sort of thing that people should be breeding? IMO, no!

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

[Thalia4Welsh]

Fullmoon - Your fellow is an unusual sort of mix! Could you tell me where the mare was owned when bred? I too am curious
as to the reason for making this cross. This is the age old problem of breeding to what is convenient, cheap, or popular in the neighborhood - and the antithesis of what we discuss on this forum, isn't it? Also, what are your cob mare's bloodlines and how do you use her?
Curious in Florida

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[fullmoon fever]

Thalia4Welsh - I will PT you since I've sent this thread off on a tangent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

[Albion]

On the QH/Welsh cross, 'Sundance Kid', whose owner posts on the COTH BB, is QH/Welsh cross - very balanced, cute, and correct. He definitely doesn't LOOK like your average Welsh pony (a bit sturdier) - but he did very well at A shows in the hunters.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[nappingonthejob]

sorry to resurrect this dying thread, but i'm curious about something mbp said (like 8 pages ago).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 3. Junior/YR Sporthorse Judging Teams. Take a lesson from 4-H and their youth judging teams and work with the YR programs to offer Sporthorse Judging Team competition – it can be combined with a written too on breeding maybe? In any event, work with the appropriate organizations to get this going and get some sponsorship for some prizes/awards. This would be something that even the kids who can’t afford the 100,000 PSG horse or the 150,000 Jr Jumper could do on a competitive basis. Heck, some European countries might get involved and we might be able to have some international competition aspects for them. It is also usually easier to get sponsorships for things involving “kids” and since they won’t have “horse costs” it is a cheaper thing. Having people watch and participate in helping the kids prep (I think the 4-H teams usually get together and then have to give verbal analysis of why they gave the scores and placings they did) etc. might build some enthusiasm? It would, IMO, definitely help with the “we need better horsemen” part as they learn to analyze conformation and distinguish blemishes and unsoundnesses, etc <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is something that i (as a young rider-aged person) would be very, very interested in. and i know that there must be others like me out there who would like to do something like this. how likely is it that such a program could be started and included along with riding disciplines at the NAYRC? how much interest (how many people actively involved) would be needed, and how can i help get something like this started?

in general though i'd just like to say that this has been a very educational read http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i hope to be a part-time breeder when i'm a big kid, so i'm finding all of this pretty fascinating.

Yatta!

[Laurie@CBF]

I agree that mbp brought up some excellent points about 4-H youth groups. Because of that post I have contacted a local 4-H leader and asked her to find out if there is any interest in a " WB sporthorse" 4-H youth group. I have invited the local 4-H judging team to a few sporthorse inspections (which I was able to get permission from first). It is very last minute - and may not really get off the ground until next year - but I think there is a chance this could be a "win-win" opportunity. It will be a lot of fun to get the kids out to events (inspections, DAD, farm tours, etc). What's also nice is that the biggest concern (liability insurance) is covered by the 4-H organization.

At least it's worth a try....

Laurie

[haligator]

Hi All,
I have resisted the urge to wade into the fray until now, but I felt I should clarify four points as a member of the infamous Breeders Committee.

First, one poster suggested that people on the Breeders Committee were not breeders themselves. This is inaccurate! The majority of the people on the committee are active breeders, and the rest are either retired breeders or are very knowledgeable about breeding.

Remember, this is not a Sport Horse Breeders Committee, it is a general Breeders Committee. There are Morgan breeders, Hackney pony breeders, Warmblood breeders, Thoroughbred breeders, Saddlebred Breeders, etc. on the committee. One of the reasons I enjoy serving on this committee is because of the input from the variety of people on the committee.

I breed Thoroughbreds for the track and show ring, but in the past I have bred Paints and assisted my late sister with her Morgan breeding operation. I have friends who breed Arabians, Morgans, Warmbloods, Thoroughbreds, Miniature Horses, and even Miniature Donkeys.

I'm no expert on breeding - everyday I learn something new. But I try to keep an open mind and breed for soundness, athletic ability, and quality. I study pedigrees, and I plan possible matings using several different systems. I may have a small operation, but I have big dreams - something all breeders have in common.

Secondly, as far as the committee being an 'old boys network', nothing could be further from the truth! I am about as far removed from being in the old boys network as possible - trust me on this. I'm about as grassroots as you can get. Very often, my ideas may be contrary to the general committee consensus, but all members listen to one another and respect one another.

Thirdly, the Rolex Event Breeding Symposium (God Bless Robby Johnson and all the other volunteers who worked so hard to make this happen) was just planned as the first of a series. In the future, other disciplines and breeds will have breeding symposiums facilitated by the USAE Breeders Committee. When possible, these will be run in conjunction with the different discipline and breed organizations.

Finally, (donning my flame suit now) if you are not a member of USAE, you really have a bit of nerve complaining about what the Breeders Committee is doing or not doing. If you want to have a voice, JOIN THE USAE. It's like people who don't vote complaining about who was elected president or governor. If you don't vote, don't complain! I know many of the posters are members of USAE, but if you're not a member, your opinions about the USAE and the amount of work the committees perform are suspect at best.

Gallop On,
Hallie McEvoy
USAE Recorded Judge - H, H/E
USAE Breeders Committee Member
USAE Competition Standards Committee Member
Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association Member
New York State Thoroughbred Breeders Member

[This message was edited by haligator on Jul. 14, 2003 at 08:39 PM.]

[NYbreeder]

To Haligator-- "... if you're not a member, your opinions about the USAE...are suspect at best." BS. I was a member for over 25 years and did not renew this year because I was tired of sending checks to support the USAE ( or whatever it was called) legal department's operations. Where did our money go, Haligator? Just look at the income statement. But, unfortunately, I still support the USAE because the breed society I belong to has a contract with the PHR (owned by the USAE) that requires me to pay $35 to the PHR for every foal I birth. (But I'm sure you knew that, since you are on the Breeders Committee.) And what do I get for my $35 dollars per foal? This is not a rhetorical question: WHAT DO I GET? I actually spent more money on the PHR fee than I did on the USAE fee.

[siegi b.]

Haligator,
well, well.... It is becoming very clear to me what's wrong with the USAE Breeding Committee. Thank you for enlightening me....
Can you give me even one reason why a serious sport horse breeder would want to be a member of the USAE?

Siegi Belz-Fry
Former member of USAE

[Ashemont]

For years I've wondered what benefits I get from all the money I've sent to USAE... and I haven't really found any. And what about the drug fee? Can't count the times I've paid that and not once has one of my horses ever been tested! If so few horses are being sampled then it sure makes one question the effectiveness of it.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "Pikör" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

[Laurie@CBF]

I think that NY breeder posted an excellent question. I have a USAE "platinum" membership - just so I can show my youngsters in more than one discipline. I feel a ridiculous amount of dues has gone to the "legal" battle. USAE breeders committee members shouldn't be offended when we ask - what have we been paying dues for - all these years? We can't even get a universal id number for our horses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif. This current system will "hog tie" breeders. Don't even try to "fake it" that having two numbers (USDF and USAE) will benefit us http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

US WB Sporthorse Breeders would probably be a little more "sympathetic" to the Breeders Committee if Denny Emerson didn't publicly tell the world that we are "ignorant" - read the last 14 pages http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. Before he makes another statement like that he should consider doing a boat load of research about us - or just stay on the trail - and limit his comments to eventing and endurance.

Fortunately this information "highway" gives many breeders an opportunity to correspond and explore important issues. This is just the beginning as far as I am concerned. I will be more demanding of getting some "value" back for my "USAE membership" dollars in the future.

[haligator]

Hi All,
Please accept my very public apology to those of you I offended. Believe it or not, I was really just trying to help.

I hope there is some way that we can all get together and move forward. One of the reasons I agreed to become a member of the Breeders Committee was because of its diversity. Denny may be the chairman, but every member has a strong, and different, voice.

For those of you who are very angry with the USAE, I think that issue would be better handled in a different thread.

I also request that those of you who have sent me very nasty personal e-mail notes (including the one filled with expletives deleted) please refrain from doing this. I'm happy to correspond as long as it stays civil, but I refuse to put up with abuse and curses and will report it to the COTH if it continues.

Hallie McEvoy

[Cartier]

Hallie/ Haligator,

We haven’t joined the USAE yet (though we do get the solicitations from time to time), and we do believe in supporting various organizations which advance a wide range of goals we’ve identified as important (for whatever reason). But there are only so many organizations we can support, so we tend to pick and choose. I’ve read this thread and I see that several people have asked essentially, “what am I getting for my money?” So, could you rattle off a few benefits of USAE membership?

By way of background, we’re small breeders, we’d like an organization that is financially solvent, well run, with a board accountable to the membership, which conducts business openly and works to promote the unique interests of American breeders. One criticism of Denny’s comments is that his statements appear on their face to be undermining the efforts of many knowledgeable, experienced domestic breeders. It could be argued that, in addition to being insulting, Denny’s comments are a step in the wrong direction.

Elaine

[ise@ssl]

What the USAE fails miserably to acknowledge is the fact that many breeders get NOTHING for their USAE membership. Yes I have a Platinum Membership Halley but unless I show the young horses in hand - what's my return?

I cannot believe that the members of the Breeders Committee didn't take umbrage at Denny's commentary in the COTH - no less. Shouldn't someone have "vetted" this article before it went to press?? If he represents the USAE Breeders Committee he has a bigger responsbility than to publish an article with his own (IMHO - very narrow minded) opinions.

This entire HOrse ID system is so confusing. I registered horses YEAR'S ago with the PHR - every year. Then the whole registry went off the radar screen - and now it's back within the USAE. I also registered some horses with lifetime AHSA numbers. I have horses with USDF lifetime numbers.

NOW - WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS FOR THESE HORSES??????????????? Why do we have to have one numbering system for the USDF and one for the USAE? Does the USEA (Eventing Assoc.) use yet other numbers? Isn't the USAE the National Governing Body?? Shouldn't they set the numbers (all within the same system) and require that all the disciplines USE THIS NUMBER SYSTEM?

TALK ABOUT A DIS-INFORMATION HIGHWAY.

Most of the warmblood registries use a system for the horses that has a two digit number first to designate the breed registry, then a registration number. (Some end in the two digit number for the year born which is great).
HOw can the USAE possibly set up this central data base if all the horses won't have the same ID system #. Even now it was stated that they have to download information from the USDF - why isn't everyone on the same page to begin with?

I cannot believe there aren't horses in the system more than one time - maybe with different numbers because the system does NOT require that the horses are entered into the system with PROOF OF PARENTAGE, BREEDERSNAME, ETC. We keep seeing that some horses have details on sire, dam, registry # and breeder unknown??? That's IMPOSSIBLE. The Breeders name is on the papers. Where did the person entering this horse get all the other information? Or did they just make it up?

Denny took a swing at all breeders with his comments. He patted himself on the back over and over again about Rolex (which was a great seminar for EVENTERS) - but failed to have a scintilla of information on the MANY, MANY Breeding Seminars that have been going on within the sporthorse breeding world. I can't believe he's even been to an inspection for any warmblood registry - his comments would not have been so derisive if he had.

He did a lot of damage to those of us trying to sell excellent young sport horses in a VERY down market. I'm sure the Germans and Dutch and other European Breeders were hugging each other when they read the article. Knowing this would send US buyers to them - and Europe is struggling with sales as well. THANKS DENNY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I also don't think the suggestions and comments on here were taken as they should have been by the Breeding Committee Members - what we are saying affects all breeds in the US - not just the warmblood breeders.


As I and others have noted - we get physically ill when we look at the money that was TOTALLY WASTED ON LEGAL FEES by the USAE & USET over the past two years. Think what this money could have bought for out SPORT???

This horse ID system would have been up and running. Each owner would have a plastic card for each horse with a bar code on it - They could have been able to request and receive pre-printed labels with that code to stick onto entry forms - there were ENDLESS possibilities with the amount of money that is now GONE.

Now the USAE wants to slap the Breeders into line and blame all the ills of the sport on us. Hey we've been doing our job and putting on our own seminars and paying for our own Futurities and the support and financial involvement by the USAE has been - NIL. When the USAE didn't sponsor events to provide and educate - WE WENT OUT AND DID IT OURSELVES AND CONTINUE TO DO SO.

Halley I respect you for posting on here with your comments and feelings - but what about the rest of the people on the Breeding Committee?? They cannot be any busier than the rest of us and the points raised herein are critical to the future success of our breeding working hand in hand with our competitors. The breeders who took exception to Denny's "ignorant" comments have never once represented that they know everything and most of them that I know - are like me - we are obsessed with learning more and improving every year. It is part of our life on a daily basis. We live it. And just because we haven't ridden for "THE TEAMS" - doesn't make us bottom feeders - we are out here providing the basis that keeps the USAE going.

I'm still waiting for the answer on what the USAE is doing for breeders? Because Mr. Emerson, the Chairman of the Breeding Committee took us about 10 Giant Steps Backward.

ILona English
Summit Sporthorses Ltd.
summitsporthorses@earthlink.net
"Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

[Tiki]

In addition to what Ilona said, some of that money flushed away could have been used to support breeders and American bred US horses with a little financial help for the FEI World Young Horse Championships. It is absolutely unbelievable to me that American bred youngsters, who are REPRESENTING THE U.S. are not being supported. All they get is, "Congratulations, you are the top 5 year olds and top 6 year olds in this country and we hereby authorize you to go to Germany to represent us in the World Young Horse Championships. Good luck getting there!!! We'll see you when you get home". Huh?????

Sheila O'Keefe
Tranquility Farm
Charles Town, WV

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[ise@ssl]

Tiki - I couldn't agree with you more on that point. These young horses represent the US Breeders' ability to breed horses that can represent the US in international arenas. They aren't just going there representing their owners or breeders - the NGB should have money set aside to assist with these horses heading overseas. And they should also work to get the competition in North America every few years.

[hansiska]

Does anyone else find it odd that the USAE membership application does not include Breeding or Breeder as a possible selection for its "Breed/Discipline" question? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if we breed sporthorses are we just supposed to check off ALL of the disciplines they might be suited for? If we check off "Other" and write in "Breeder" are we all going to be accounted for? It may seem like knit-picking, but to me it underscores the lack of centrality breeding has to our largest equestrian organization.

For the record, I applaud Denny's efforts. Though the grand generalization may feel like slander, remember the original question:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Question? What American bred horses, specifically bred for sport, and not a race track cast off(like Touch of Class) has been on a USET team in the past 25 years or so? The 3 that I can think of are Gem Twist, Bruce`s Babamist son at Atlanta, name escapes me, and Bally Cor.
What are some others? These are the statistics that make me question whether we collectively know enough.
If you can show me statistical evidence to the contrary, I`ll most gladly revise my opinions.
If we know what we`re doing, why do our very best competitors so often look elsewhere? Why???
Denny <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think all of us know American breeders who DO know LOTS about bloodlines. I've already learned a lot from these people and I'll be the first to admit I need to know more. As I see it, anyone who works to further the education and organization of American breeders is a help. Don't shoot the messenger. Answer the question: "Why DO our very best competitors so often look elsewhere?"

[CM Frank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> YOUNG HORSE DEVELOPMENT: Last week The Chronicle ran the press release about the horses short-listed for the World Breeding Championships for Young Dressage Horses. The sad truth is that most of the owners of those young horses can't or won't consider the journey to Verden because of the cost. In it's last meeting, the Breeders Committee discussed the formation of an earmarked fund for Young Horse Development through the USAE's existing Torchbearer Program. This would enable breeders, breed registries and sponsors to make tax-deductible donations specifically dedicated to the development of young competition horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The quote above was posted on page one of this thread as an inspiration to breeders to think about programs the Breeders Committee could originate to help breeders. Let's try to take this opportunity to come up with something positive.

[MsHunter]

I agree Cheryl. OK I have some positive ideas. What about a leading breeder award from the USAE in different areas? Right now you have a leading sire (great step in a positive direction!!!!). How about the breeder of the Horse of The Year? Or and the breeder of the Green Conformation Hunter Champion in NY?
Things along those lines? maybe they would just be ribbons (rossettes) and a blurb, but how about breeder recognition awards? Even in the Zones? Would this be out of line?

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[mbp]

Well, I have been a member since I was a junior (sheez - please don't tell me I have to say when that was in the interest of full disclosure http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) but I am lapsed right now. I did just send in a renewal as it looks like my move is about done and my mail can all go to one place now.

Like others, I regret the legal fees incurred by USAEq, but to be honest I don't see a lot of ways they could have been avoided. THat is another thread though. But, as much as I have supported USAEq's position, I think a very important issue underlying the squabble becomes apparent when you look at concerns like those being raised. USAEq is an "all things to all disciplines" organizations bc of how it was originally structured as an umbrella for shows in all the disciplines.

As the NGB, however, USAEq really needs to have an approach that establishes committees and subcommittees for the FEI and Olympic disciplines. While "Hunter" does not fit in either of those specifically, it is really our pyramid base for jumpers and IMO should be fit in with that approach. I think that these types of subcommittees would be helpful even within something like the breeding committee.

I DO NOT MEAN THIS AS A DIG OR CRITICISM but in part what has happened at several junctures is that an organization like the USDF, which can be more focused, has taken the bull by the horns when they felt action was not forthcoming from the USAEq. The dressage community, in general, has usually really benefitted from this, but, we now have situations where the USAEq IS trying to get its house in order, and there is duplication.

We really do need to have USAEq and USDF work to reduce the duplication and that appeal should be made in part to USDF as well as USAEq, bc there are limits on what USAEq can direct USDF to do. USAEq can, however, if it desires, structure a system where registries and USDF pretty much have to comply with the one number approach. One problem is thatUSDF took on a lot initially with its number system and the Cosequin finals and it probably is reliant (I am guessing - may be completely wrong) on some of the funds generated from the USDF horse registration. In any event, we need a better system. A system where USAEq sets the ground rules, registries are told their horses need to be numbered according and USDF et al are told they need to accept the same number all around. Right now, breeders are paying registry fees for registration, then USDF fees thenalso getting ids from USAEq and if they want to participate in any USAEq awards programs also paying a registraion fee there. It is partly the money - but even more so - it is the rank confusion! Contrast this with someone who buys anAQHA registered horse and starts to show the AQHA circuit.

A lot of good things are being done and being built on. I would like to see some additional support for the World Young Horse Championships, but I still wonder whether we would be better off focusing on that or on National young horse programs from a cost/benefit standpoint? I don't know, but I would like to see it kicked around and discussed thoroughly before commitments get made one way or another.

Mostly, I would like to see some immediate authorizations to set up standing subcommittees on the breeding committee to address the FEI and Olympic areas so that breeders for sport horses have a subcommittee that is focused on that arena.

[poltroon]

My goodness, people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Halley I respect you for posting on here with your comments and feelings - but what about the rest of the people on the Breeding Committee?? They cannot be any busier than the rest of us and the points raised herein are critical to the future success of our breeding working hand in hand with our competitors.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So after haligator gets flames on the BB and private flames, you're wondering why more members of the Breeding Committee aren't here to chat with you??

Please. Instead of assuming that everyone is stupid, lazy, rude, and obstructionist, at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Explain your problems politely. Make your suggestions. From my vantagepoint, it appears the committee is making an effort. Praise the positive (my, that's a nice balanced trot transition today!) instead of harping on why this youngster hasn't won an Olympic Gold Medal yet. It works with baby horses and it works with people too.

Haligator describes herself as 'not an expert', but as a guess I'd say her resume puts her in the top 10% for sure.

Last I looked, Denny is a breeder too - foolishly standing several American-bred stallions, no less. If he's hurting your livelihood, then you'd think he'd be hurting his own even more, and thus getting what he deserved.

[siegi b.]

Poltroon, it's hard to follow your reasoning when you say that by hurting our livelihood, Denny would be hurting his even more. How so? Are people going to Europe to buy thoroughbreds for eventing?

As much as I like to praise the positive, saying "my, I just love the way Denny just belittled my comment" just doesn't do it for me.

There have been lots of questions asked by posters, and from what I can see NONE have been answered. Every now and then Cheryll throws us a little bone "the committee has discussed the formation of a fund...", but unless it's "the committee is in the process of creating a fund..", that statement is absolutely meaningless.

We are asked to be positive and constructive, and I agree that is a worthwhile goal. I also think that we should be able to expect the same from the committee and its members.

[ise@ssl]

Poltroon - these are your words "Instead of assuming that everyone is stupid, lazy, rude, and obstructionist"

Not the words of any of the breeders who posted here.

If someone feels it's important to find out why the Olympic Team horses are not US bred - then let them put together a subcommittee.

What I would prefer to know is why there's this TOTAL misconception out there that the US Sporthorse Breeders are not on par with Europe?

And why the Europeans feel the breeder's name should be on everything and in the US - it should be on the registration papers and that's about all.

We keep hearing that the "top horses" are not US bred? PLEASE TELL US HOW SOMEONE CAN COME TO THAT CONCLUSION WHEN THE BREEDER INFORMATION IS NOT AVAILABLE? I can't put my finger on my 2002 American Horses in Sport....but the 2001 edition - and you don't have to spend much time leafing through the pages - 99+% of the horses listed on all these pages have no indication of the breeder or where they were bred. So please someone tell me how we can make any claims that the "top horses" - which is more than the "team horses" are all imported?

I don't think anyone knows the information!

[CM Frank]

LEADING BREEDER AWARDS

USAE has been giving leading breeder awards in Silver Stirrup categories for three years now, with the long-term plan of expanding the award to the scope of the leading sires.

The Leading Breeder Ranking Query is already written. Unfortunately, we have little breeder information on file, so what it will take to create a meaningful list is this:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Breeders need to be members because their products are tied together via the Breeder's ID number, just as the leading sires are tied by the Sire ID and the Broodmare reports will be tied by the Mare ID.
<LI>Breeders need to work with USAE staff to identify their products. That's not always easy when you are retroactively cleaning up data and the horse names have been changed.
<LI>Breeders can be proactive by getting even a free Horse ID on their foals, mares and stallions. That puts the horses in the database and increasing the chances of making the right connections.[/list]

[sylvan farm]

Just a quick couple of suggestions,which might help with communication and focus for sport horse breeders:

1.Have the USAE designate a section or link on its website, where the Breeders Committee can post monthly or quarterly, the minutes of their meetings and a summary of their activities. Might even use this as a means of requesting volunteers for various projects.

2. As sport horse breeding (think, Olympic disciplines here) is the fastest growing and most vociferous group in the industry today, form a permanent Subcommittee of the Breeders Committee devoted to sport horse breeding. Have it populated with both active breeders from all sections of the US and active riders. Give the subcommittee an actual budget, with a separate line in the USAE financial report. Allow the committee to allocate money as it sees fit (with overview by USAE). The subcommittee could allocate funds for educational activities and/or help identify and sponsor young horses for national and international competitions. Hopefully this subcommittee would work with the USDF, H/J councils and international committees as necessary to achieve an overall plan for establishing a successful breeding strategy for the US.

There are certainly enough good ideas being bandied about here, that somehow we need to capture them and begin working. I'm am volunteering again.

And just so you all know I'm not just a lurker, I've listed my credits below.

Judy Hedreen
USAE 'R' - DSHB
USAE Platinum member with horses successfully competing in Dressage, Hunters and Jumpers
Member uSDF and USDF sport Horse Committee
Member of American Hanoverian Society, German Hanoverian Society, German Oldenburg Verband, and ISR/Oldenburg NA
Breeder of the successful Oldenburg performance stallion Agincourt

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
Poltroon, it's hard to follow your reasoning when you say that by hurting our livelihood, Denny would be hurting his even more. How so? Are people going to Europe to buy thoroughbreds for eventing?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they are. I would say that the majority of eventers either sift through off-the-track prospects or they go to England or Ireland for Thoroughbreds that have been purpose-bred for steeplechasing and eventing. Just off the top of my head, Custom Made, Giltedge, Mackinleigh, Biko, Eagle Lion all came from the UK. In my own circles, people who get to Training level, want to go on, and have some money to spend are typically booking flights to Ireland because upper level event horses in the US are spread out and hard to come by.

[Heck, Gina Miles and Mackinleigh are practically advertisements for the Buy in Ireland plan. Gina rode for years in California on cheap racetrack rejects, never getting past prelim. Then she found a sponsor to buy her a young Irish horse, and BOOM! within a couple of years she's running Advanced and is picked for the Team for the WEG. This goes on the "finding riders" thread too - for years she was just another good rider in the pack that no one had heard of, struggling with cheap horses.]

In eventing, you see a few upper level riders trying to breed their own prospects (they need space for galloping anyway, why not some mares and foals), but otherwise I'm not aware of anyone purposefully breeding event horses for sale in the US. There's just no money in it. I'm sure there are some - but I don't know them.

[This message was edited by poltroon on Jul. 15, 2003 at 05:31 PM.]

[CM Frank]

Excellent ideas Judy. And certainly, if the breeders put as much effort into positive communication with USAE leadership as they have posting on this BB, we might actually get something accomplished.

[MsHunter]

Well I for one think the database and the addition of listing sires and dams to the records for the standings is AWESOME! The
breeder information I noticed is getting
farther and farther daily. None of this was even here last year! I think it is great!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[siegi b.]

To CMFrank - you just couldn't resist, could you? Let me turn it around and say the same thing to you.... if YOU put as much effort into POSITIVE communication with the breeders, the USAE Breeding Committee might actually get something done.
You want our money, you go first!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree, the numbers and database are a wonderful place to start, and it will take time to develop. We are still looking at people actually taking the time to fill in entry forms. If the next step would be to have a single number, with all information in the database, and use that number for all show entries, then show managers would already have the information available, and results would include that information as well.

It is important to acknowledge what American Breeders are producing. Possibly awards (doesn't need to be much - printed certificate, listing, small "blurb") for each discipline, Region, or even big shows (Cosequin Breeders Championships come to mind), for highest placed American Bred Horse, AND/OR by an American based or bred Stallion, AND/OR out of an American bred mare? Just something to call attention to their "American label"?

What about classes or Championships ONLY for American bred horses.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[theponylady]

Here is my suggestion to everyone here..GO TO THE USAE CONVENTION AND ATTEND THE BREEDERS COMMITEE MEETINGS AND FORUMS! I did that this year, and I learned a tremendous amount. I met some very helpful and interesting people(including Denny), I learned a lot more about the system, I heard about the problems and what they were doing to fix them, and I even got listened to and a couple of my suggestions were used to fix problems. And I was a "nobody", as in nobody there knew who I was. But they still listened to me, listened to my ideas, and answered my questions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
To CMFrank - you just couldn't resist, could you? Let me turn it around and say the same thing to you.... if YOU put as much effort into POSITIVE communication with the breeders, the USAE Breeding Committee might actually get something done.
You want our money, you go first!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karen Vicencio

[lorik]

Darlyn,
You've made me think again (not an easy task). With DAD being the largest Sport Horse Breeding Show, maybe we should acknowledge the American breeder with some sort of award. I'm having a problem figuring out where to make the cut and the fairness of using high score since we have so many different judges. What would you think of something like high score American Filly (weanling thru 3), American Colt/Gelding, American Mare, American Stallion? Maybe just something simple like a rosette in red, white and blue. Then each year in the program we can print the winners from the previous year (complete with breeder's name, of course). Maybe something similar with the high score in the CDN and CDI (that is, of course if the breeder information is submitted). I'm just thinking on the fly here, and I'd still have to get the approval of the comittee, but....
One small step at a time.
Lori Kaminski
Dressage at Devon
Breed Show Secretary

[Cartier]

What I’m reading again and again is that there needs to be a single, permanent life-time I.D number for each horse, which is linked to other information in a data base, which would be accessible to many equine groups / registries etc. The available data should include the horse’s permanent “registered” name, the I.D. number, the breeder’s name , the sire, the dam, the date of birth and current owner. This information should be listed in show catalogues (much like the American Kennel Club’s data base for registration and the information offered in AKC conformation dog show catalogues). The AKC borrows freely from the equine world (when the need arises); why not borrow from them? AKC’s rules mandate that this information be included in ALL show catalogues. Exhibitors and spectators could easily track breeding lines and specific breeders if this kind of data were required and available in horse show catalogues.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Jul. 16, 2003 at 08:36 AM.]

[meghan1963]

Hi Lori,

That is a great idea!

Meghan

[AlanBalch]

I've been hearing about this thread, and thought I would get up early and take the time to read it myself.

I'm glad I did.

As the (very lamest of lame-ducks) president of USA Equestrian, for a couple more months or so, what I have to say on this may or may not be of interest.

First, the Internet and boards like this are of great benefit to the expression of any opinion at all, however negative or positive, however informed or uninformed, however enlightening or confusing. Just think of it: much of what I'm reading here never used to get beyond the stage of whispers in the tack room! So it's a big net positive to have these opinions out in the open.

Second, however much some of you are not inclined to cut Denny or Hallie or our Breeders Committee (or me) any slack for our woeful performance in the Federation on the general subject of advancing the cause of breeders in the USA, there are a few things you might bear in mind. And I see this recognized in a lot of the posts, where people are developing several valuable positive thoughts and not dwelling on the negative.

So, what are some of these things? Well, for starters, Denny Emerson was a voice in the wilderness, writing in the Chronicle back in 95 or 96, about the plight of American breeders, and I happened to read what he was writing and took it very seriously, along with a lot of other people, like Ned Bonnie, Jimmy Wofford, and ultimately the entire boards of both AHSA/USA Equestrian AND the USET, which both endorsed the purposes of the then-PHR in full, open, board meetings in 1997 at San Diego. At Denny's impetus.

We then set about working, under some pretty difficult sport and political conditions, to try to move ahead some rudimentary organization at the Federation level for the recognition of breeding in the USA as an essential pillar of the sport. This was in NINETEEN 97, mind you, not EIGHTEEN 87, when it should have happened. That meant the conditions for trying to move forward were fraught with a hundred-years worth of neglect and the problems born of neglect.

We used to laugh and say, "Better late than never," and what I read here in some posts really indicates that we've touched some nerves and are actually starting to get some attention to the overall problems, and generating disagreement about how they're being tackled. Remember, through the financial backing of the AHSA, we saved PHR's database when the Jockey Club was going to discontinue it, and then through the work of Ned Bonnie, we actually incorporated it into the data resource structure of USA Equestrian.

To me, touching all these nerves is good, and it indicates some meager progress. Many of you recognize we're trying to do something positive. Even those of you who are rather strongly critical of Denny (and the Breeders Committee) would have to concede he got your attention with what he's said and written, and getting serious attention devoted to problems is the first step in resolving them. A family that cannot discuss its problems is dysfunctional, and we've been quite dysfunctional in this family of American breeders, so we're doing something about it.

Personally, I am fascinated with the prospects for better organization and development of American breeding, of both Tbreds and ALL horses. In fact, also in 1997, we had a very intense educational program in Virginia with Dr. H. Haring of the German NF, who gave us all an eye-opening presentation. This was all paid for and publicized by USA Equestrian. What happened there? He ran into a buzz saw from the assembled hundreds, many of whom had similar negative and argumentative points that I see expresssed again and again, and finally threw up his hands with a laugh, in public, and said, "You know ladies and gentlemen, if you Americans want to continue to come to my country and spend enormous fortunes for horses we breed, we are pleased to accommodate you. Alan only asked me to come here to explain to you some ideas about what we do and how we do it, and how it got started and how it's organized, so that you might benefit from our 100 years of experience. But if you don't want to learn from that, it's really very good for us Germans."

Well, as Hanfried sees, we are learning, but the learning is slow and the progress is slower, because, as I said before, we have a 100 years of neglect ORGANIZATIONALLY to make up for. We don't lack the skill, we don't lack the commitment, we don't lack the money, we don't lack the passion (quite obviously), but in this amorphous-free market country of ours, something like breeding horses is markedly unorganized and free-form thus far.

You might also be interested in something I testified to on this subject to the United States Olympic Committee. Isn't it amazing that a country like the Netherlands won a couple of individual gold medals at Sydney in our sport,if memory serves. How is that possible, if sport performance is based on money and population and professional attributes? It's possible, of course, because of superior organization of the assets they do have, and in Holland, commitment to breeding a better horse, and expressing that commitment through superior organization of their breeding programs, and integrating them into their overall programs for advancing horsemanship, is a benchmark of their Federation. It's no accident, also, that we all see the French riding superior French horses, the Dutch on their own, the Germans on their own, and we would love to see the Americans on THEIR own -- and NOT just Tbreds, of course, but the products of American breeding. Of which there are some notable examples, and Denny is aware of them, but they are rare (relatively speaking, to be sure) in the overall scheme of things. And where they do perform at the top or near the top of the sport, we don't do enough to honor, salute, and learn from them. We have to do a much better job of that, although we have at least started to do so in our awards programs.

The present leadership of your sport Federation believes strongly in the importance of breeding for the future strength and vitality of this sport in the USA, both from the economic standpoint and the sporting/winning standpoint. While we are all deeply disappointed that we have been able to accomplish so little since 1997, we have made a tentative start, and tried to get some basic framework in place, from which more important progress will be made.

Let's try to do it together -- exaggerating disagreements and hurling insults at each other makes us feel better momentarily, and now that we've gotten that off our chests, let's DO SOMETHING POSITIVE. Cheryll, please get the budget to have a major breeding conclave at the Los Angeles convention, and let's try to get everyone out there together, in the same room, hundreds of people, to meet each other and reason our way forward. And even hoist a few together and learn what we all have in common! I'll even invite Hanfried to come back for a return engagement, along with a couple others that you all suggest.

But better hurry -- I'll be gone soon, and want the budget approved before I go.

Cheers, everyone!

[hansiska]

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!

[Cartier]

Ditto what Hansiska said… and thank you Mr. Balch!

[MsHunter]

Thank You Alan for taking the time to join us!

For the record, I'd like to say that I know Alan is committed to the American bred horse.
This was clearly evident last year when I received my awards personally from him on NATIONAL HUNTER BREEDING DAY in Warrenton, Va.

Again, it is wonderful to see you appear and take the time in your busy schedule to reply to a topic near and dear to many of us on the BBs.

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[MsHunter]

For the record, did you REALLY read this entire thread? You deserve and award if you did LOL!

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[CM Frank]

I've waded through the thread and come up with what I think are the major bullet points, which I will post here now. If anyone has any additions, please email to me directly at cmfrank@equestrian.org. I plan to send this list off to the members of the Breeders Committee at close of business today, as well as to USAE Leadership.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>HIGHLIGHTS OF CHRONICLE BULLETIN BOARD THREAD

<LI>Young Horses Development funds to aid US-bred horses for competition in international Young Horse Championships. Possible ability to earmark funds for a specific horse, breed, etc. Matching funds from corporate sponsors?
<LI>Lobby FEI and WBFSH to allow U.S. to host Breeding Championships (Note: Currently the championships do not even move around Europe. Eventing is Le Lion d’Angiers (FRA), Dressage is Verden (GER), and show jumping is Lanaken (BEL).
<LI>Name active breeders to Breeders Committee membership (The Breeders Committee already includes active breeders as well as active athletes who are breeders).
Make breeder information mandatory on all entry blanks.
<LI>Mandate a single number for horses to be used by all registries and discipline affiliates.
<LI>Investigate methods of bringing together youth and young horses to provide opportunities for the development of both.
<LI>Support the development of young horse championships maybe even a USAE Young Horse Championship for all FEI disciplines. (Note. Many on the BB are specifically talking about the $20,000 Dressage Futurity being offered at Dressage at Devon. This class is restricted to the member studbooks of the Federation of NA Sport Horse registries which allows European imports to be ‘transferred’ to an American studbook. For instance, a German Hanoverian can be re-registered as an American Hanoverian and be eligible for the above, but an American Warmblood, Arabian or Saddlebred is ineligible because the studbook is not a member.)
<LI>Find ways to encourage FEI riders to look at American-bred youngsters. Bring riders and breeders together.
<LI>Foster the development of regional training and marketing centers that offer breeders a cost-effective opportunity to train young horses while offering riders a convenient shopping opportunity. Another suggestion is to build a US Training Center in the Kentucky Horse Park.
<LI>Encourage American studbooks to focus more on America instead of offering ‘shop in [name a country]’ tours. Many board members and leading breeders of the various studbooks are dealers in European imports and frozen semen, and many are not even American citizens.
<LI>Educate breeders on better marketing, promotion and publicity techniques.
<LI>Send members of the Breeders Committee to breeding stock inspections and seminars.
<LI>Name a USAE representative to the Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries.
<LI>Encourage shows to make more pedigree information available on participating horses. (USAE Sport Data staff has developed a ‘media link’ pedigree/past performance query designed to be used by the media and show announcers. It is currently in production with the IT department.)
<LI>Encourage top trainers to ‘foster’ a young horse/young rider team for purposes of development of both.
<LI>Create an industry-wide directory.
<LI>List sire, dam and breeder for horses ranked in USAE Horse of the Year standings. (This is already a reality on the USAE website).
<LI>Address the growing expense of showing horses in the U.S.
<LI>Continue to develop the American Horse Sports Database for the benefit of riders, owners and breeders alike.
<LI>Sponsor a poll or survey among breeders and riders/trainers to define the market for American bred horses.
<LI>Consider the development of ‘American-bred’ classes or divisions in shows. (This obviously applies more to some disciplines than others because the percentage of imports versus homebreds is different).
<LI>Create breeders reports in the database as well as a Leading Breeder rankings list. (Already in production at USAE. However, a lot of breeder information is lacking so it will take some time to become meaningful. USAE has awarded Leading Breeder trophies for the past three years in the Silver Stirrup category because we know the breeders. USAE also awards the Ellen Scripps-Davis Breeder of the Year at the Pegasus dinner.)
<LI>Educate judges on soundness. “We have judges who have never handled, trained or bred a horse before.”
<LI>Create a market for foals.
<LI>Create a website for breeders. (The USAE Breeders Committee has had a request in to the IT department for 2 years now. It was one of the first actions of the Breeders Committee. The development of the internal USAE computer system has taken precedence, but the project is still on the agenda.)
<LI>Find ways to educate riders about the importance of bloodlines. Conversely, help breeders to learn more about what riders are looking for.
<LI>Establish a system of ‘agents’ who specialize in bringing breeders and buyers together.
<LI>Ask shows to designate ‘high profile’ classes and have USAE provide 4x pedigrees on the winners or the starters. (USAE staff has done this for key shows over the past three years and is currently working with Dressage at Devon on pedigree/performance information for the 2003 renewal. As stated above, a Media Link is being developed for shows and publications. Additionally, USAE sends out a Week in Review email every Tuesday. Pedigree and breeder information—when available—is included for every horse.)
<LI>Create Junior/Young Rider Sport Horse Judging Teams.
<LI>Offer special awards (ribbons, etc.) to highest placing American-bred horses at high profile competitions.
<LI>Create a survey for sport horse registries.
<LI>Create an information packet and a segment of the USAE website for breeders giving contact information for young horse futurity opportunities, etc.
<LI>Offer more seminars.
<LI>Designate liaisons from all breed registries to the Breeders Committee. (non-voting advisors.)
<LI>Make recording of foals (with USAE) free. (Note: The USAE Horse ID number is free for all horses, yet most breeders do not take advantage of the opportunity).
<LI>Encourage local or regional groups to do more to showcase young stock and encourage the participation of top riders.
<LI>Create a North American Championship for Sport Horses on the model of the WBFSH. (Note: This is not a head-to-head championship, but a rankings model that counts the top six horses for each studbook toward a studbook ‘team.’ USAE is working with the coordinator of the Federation for NA Sport Horse registries on the concept, but if USAE administers such a program it will not be limited to FNASR members.)
<LI>Educate breeders on the appropriate protocols for presenting proposals to USAE committees.
<LI>Restrict participation in USAE Horse of the Year awards to horses with registration papers, breeder information and full pedigree.
<LI>Address issues of why many breeders are not USAE members. Create an informational brochure for breeders about USAE breeder services.
<LI>Create biographies of top horses. Incorporate the ‘every step of the way’ motto.
<LI>Educate buyers and veterinarians on the role of pre-purchase exams.
<LI>Initiate a ‘case study’ by following specific horses from a breeder from foal to career end.
<LI>Add the designation “Breeder” to the USAE Membership application.
<LI>Create a Sport Horse subcommittee of the Breeders Committee for purposes of serving the FEI disciplines.
<LI>Find ways to encourage more breeders to attend the USAE convention, Owners and Breeders Forum and Breeders Committee meetings. (Note: The Breeders Committee meeting has been standing-room-only for the past two years, but is lacking participation from the warmblood sector.)
[/list]

[Cartier]

Ms Frank,
What a positive agenda… fabulous… thank you for taking the time to compose the list. And I think everyone owes a huge “thank you” to breeders (like Summit Sport Horses and many, many others) who doggedly continued this thread and made such great contributions to this topic.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Thank-you Mr. Balch for joining us. You are 100% correct. Organizationally we are really behind. We are beginning to produce a much better horse, but as breeders we lack the marketing skills to promote our product without help. I can tell you as a breeder, you won't find a group more interested in learning in a positive environment. We also take a lot of pride in our work, and our hearts are very attached to our products. We can take educational criticism from someone as long as they know our product, but we do get a bit testy at being lumped together and rubber stamped. That to me is not productive.

Several years ago, I attended a breeding seminar with Gerd Zuther. The quality of horses he was evaluating was quite varied, but he was always positive, evaluating the good parts and explaining what would need improving on each horse. He explained how their individual parts would help make training easy, or what difficulties would be encountered in their training.

Lorik
That would be wonderful. I too was wondering how the scores would come out, as judges can tend to score so differently. What about also having an award for the Highest score FEI test on an American bred horse?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Fairview Horse Center]

and BTW CM Frank...could you get that all done by Friday? I need to get my nails done http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[NYbreeder]

To Mr. Balch: Thank you for a thoughtful, well reasoned letter. I applaud you. I think it should be printed out and used as the basis for our (i.e., all of us) moving onward.
To Cheryll Frank: Bravo!

[ise@ssl]

Cheryl - regarding the North American Breeders Futurity the following rule applies for the compeition:
"The North American Breeders Futurity Championship Finals for Five and Six Year Old Horses will be open only to horses born in North America, and will include prize money in excess of $20,000! "

Horses that were transferred into studbooks that were born outside North American ARE NOT ELIGIBLE. I don't want people to mis-understand the rules. The NABF was specifically put together with HUGE assistance from the ISR/OLDNA to showcase horses BORN IN NORTH AMERICA.

[Bethe Mounce]

Great great posts! I am truly truly impressed. And I am just delighted Mr. Balch joined this thread...speaks volumes about the fact that he cares deeply for the breeders and their plight.

Let me address one thing: fees for registration of horse to be shown at USAE sanctioned events. I have an older mare, one who has sorta sat in the pasture (yes, I bred her but got too busy with other horses) but is really doing quite nicely with the dressage training being provided. In order to show her at a USDF/USAE sanctioned event, I have to pay $65 to USDF for lifetime registration (that is if I intend to qualify her for regional championships, which I may try and do) and the USAE HID # is free, but if I want an annual recording, which is usually what I do because I am never sure which horses I'll be competing and which ones I won't, I need to have her recorded which I believe is around $50 (cannot remember offhand), so I'll be spending $65 for her (am not planning on doing the annual recording thing just yet with USAE). Now the foal, who is 2 months old, will be shown on the line and in future dressage competition, provided all goes as anticipated, so for her, I'll have to pay the USDF fee of $65 and the USAE annual recording of that $50 or so. I am going to pay it now only because the fees from both organizations will probably rise in the future.

Paying two organizations is pointless, plus paying two organizations for annual membership fees is pointless.

Is there any chance, USDF will slide under the new USEF umbrella and there will be ONE fee to ONE organization for membership as well as getting my horses recorded/registered?

I just find myself spending quite a bit of money at the end of the year with membership and horse fees........close to $200 with no incentive to join either except for record keeping about my horses' highs or lows.

Not complaining, just sorta noting some things as time has gone by. Am willing of course, to help provide any solutions and absolutely no offense intended to either USDF or USAE....just grateful to be able to speak up!

[lorik]

Darlyn,
An award for the highest FEI test was what I ment when I typed CDN and CDI. That way, we have one award within the national level ranks and one in the international ranks. The problem is going to be that the performance horses rarely supply breeder information. It's going to be difficult, but maybe we can see how things work this year and fine tune from there. Any other thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.
Lori

[ise@ssl]

Mr. Balch thanks for reading - thanks for writing. So worry your experience in 1997 - about 16 years ago with Mr. Haring was so negative. I know many other breeders involved in ALL the othe US sporthorse breeding registries can attest as I can that this has never happened at any of the many, many breeding seminars or clinics conducted over the past decade and more. In fact the many officials from a variety of European registries have over the past few years gone out of their way to comment on how far we have come in such a protracted period of time. I've never seen any participant argue with those who came to share their knowledge and experience and in fact most of these lecturers were besieged with people who wouldn't even give them a break at lunch or dinner!! We've looked at many horses in various seminars to understand the suttle nuances of what makes a great walk in a young horse or what characteristics of a mare are what we must have for a quality breeding program. We continue to seek out more information and just want readers of the thread to know that the eduction of the sporthorse breeder in North America has been ongoing and intense in it's focus - thanks (A GREAT BIG THANK YOU) to all the various breed registries who have offered and continue to offer superior lectures, clinics and seminars all over the US at their own expense.

While I certainly hope the USAE convention brings forth hundreds of breeders - it's important to understand we are probably the least mobile group in the horse world. Leaving our farms to travel is not a luxury we can often enjoy. When we leave more help is required at home and finding people who can manage mares and young horses is not always possible. And some months of the year are just blacked out for travel due to foaling and breeding. But we are a very "connected" community - through our registries and through our regional associations at inspections and certainly at the 100 Day testing of stallions. (BTW - I hope more people consider attending the next 100 Day testing in 2004 at Paxton Farms in Ohio - there's a tremendous amount of knowledge to be gained from this event and the final testing). It will also give people a greater understanding of the quality of young stallions being bred in the US.

[arnika]

Mr Balch, let me say Thank You and welcome to this BB. It is very good to know that our concerns are being taken seriously. I'm only sorry that you have just a few months to go.

CMFrank, being the slow typist that I am I can only imagine the amount of time it took to type that list. Not to mention wading through the entire thread to pick them out. Thank you very much also. The amazing thing is how many good suggestions and ideas have been proposed. If even half get implemented it will make a huge difference in how American breds are perceived in this country.

And lorik, that is a wonderful idea! It would be fabulous to have awards for American breds at DAD. This could be such a good start for our industry and is very encouraging.

[Allyn M]

Thank You! Thank You Cheryll , Alan and Denny for taking the time to help the American Sport Horse breeders. Whether some will admit to it or not we do need all of the help we can get.The market is tough all over right now . Even the Europeans are acknowledging that and we need to take this down time to review the possible programs that would help us both in breeding and marketing.

The ideas that Cheryll has brought forth are worth studing one by one . Each one of us needs to make an effort to get to the breeders meeting at the convention. What are the dates for that ?? Hopefully if each one of us that is connected with a horse show will start with that show to work on a positive influence in peoples attitudes toward American breds and
American breds in in-hand classes we can make a slow difference. B#*ching about the people who are trying to do something is not going to help at all. It is just discouraging them in their efforts. Would it be possible to have an money driven awards program for American breds connected with the young Jumper Championships?? I would be happy to contribute to that. Actually each year our farm gives out two really nice halters with name plates for the 5 and 6 year old jumper championships at the Traders Point Horse Show and we would be happy to join in some sort of program to award something to American breds.

Allyn McCracken
Sport Horse Breeder
www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

[CM Frank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Would it be possible to have an money driven awards program for American breds connected with the young Jumper Championships?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allyn. The IJF awards $40,000 annually to IJF nominated horses that place high in the YJC Finals. That's in addition to the $50,000 in prize money at the Hampton Classic.

It is absolutely possible to talk to USAE about creating an earmarked fund to do something similar through Torchbearers, or failing that, I'm sure I can convince Linda and Joyce to consider earmarked donations through YJC for the same purpose.

[poltroon]

THANK YOU Alan, Cheryll, Denny, and Hallie for taking the time and sticking your necks out to participate on this thread. Your willingness to connect here is deeply appreciated.

[ise@ssl]

Actually Allyn - I don't agree with your comment that b****ing is not the right way to go. I feel the problem has come from the Breeders just not coming forward and stating their concerns, needs and problems. And as far as coming forward with positive ideas - I have to believe the list Cheryl just posted came from a lot of the dialogue that went on in this very in-depth and lengthy thread.

Had no one come forward to take exception to Denny's comments and article - would that have been a better way or resulted in more "ear time" from the Breeding Committee. I doubt it. Would Alan Balch have taken the time to read this thread if we had all just sent private letters - I don't think so. Denny used the COTH forum to state his opinion - the Breeders couldn't do that so they posted on this thread to get their opinions out there.

Most of the people I know who are breeders have stepped forward to sponsor at horse shows. I've donated coolers, sponsorship money, etc.

Seigi's comment about the fact that there is no "Breeder" category on the USAE membership form was one that really sticks in my mind. So basic but oh so important.

And it's also been a great dialogue - even if it was heated - to show the passion that the US sporthorse breeders have for their horses and their businesses and to inform people of the time we spend increasing our knowledge and improving our breeding goals and results.

Change doesn't come without voice and while the breeders in the US aren't all in agreement on breeds, registries, etc. etc. - we are a large and hardy group - we will stick together to make our case and defend our accomplishments. Alan Blach's unfortunate seminar in 1997 is NOT exemplary of what our focus has been since that year - afterall you can't judge the current sporthorse world by a seminar that was held 16 years ago. Nor is it indicative of our attitude about our breeding goals and the very high standard professional breeders set for themselves. Ask the Germans or the Dutch or any other European group that has been on tours or judged at Breed Shows here in North American over the past 5 years - they know we are on their heels!

Now if we could just replicate the Bereiter program here in the US - you probably wouldn't see a single team horse without a US Birth Certificate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by ise@ssl on Jul. 16, 2003 at 02:12 PM.]

[MsHunter]

Cheryl, can you give us the dates of the LA convention? I seem to recall January? I have only made it to a few (hectic horse show schedule), but I surely can change some of our dates around to attend if the Breeders meeting is "open" to all USAE members. Thanks.
P.S Does the Hunter Breeding COmmittee have a meeting at this convention also?

Owner/Trainer of Plumsted Equestrian Center Inc,NJ

[mbp]

LoriK - that would be great. The red white & blue is a wonderful idea.

Mr. Balch - it is rare to find someone who has so consistently been able to find a postive direction through very troubled and complex situations. I hope we can be as fortunate in the future, but a quick thanks for all you have done.

C Frank - great job on the list. {And very tactful. LOL I think most of us know this BB thread does not come anywhere near meeting any correct guidelines for submitting proposals to the USAEq. We appreciate that much more the focus you are bringing to the concerns, even without proper formalities. Thank you.}

Of course, not everything is something that will be workable, not everything is something that will have universal support, not everything is easy to implement, some things (like standardizing the ID system and simplifying organizational structure) involve other organizations that may or may not be on the same page with USAEq, but what a great set of starting points.

Some will take some grunt work. I think you should have a list of names now for volunteers if you need them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[poltroon]

Not to be nit-picky, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but on my calendar 1997 was 6 years ago, not 16.

Unless I slept in a lot longer than I thought this morning! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[ise@ssl]

Sorry my error. But you know this really surprises me becuase I had a Sporthorse Breeding Seminar at Gladstone - had to have been 7 or 8 years ago. Ekkehard Brysch the CEO of the ISR/OLDNA gave the lectures. We had over 80 people attend from about 6 different states. We had horses to evaluate ranging in age from yearlings to 3. And mares of various ages and breeds (TB, WB's, and crosses) and we had two stallions - an Oldenburg and a Selle Francais.

No one argued about the concepts or breeding goals and most people took copious notes as well as all the handouts we provided on evaluating horses, the German system, etc. I know many of these people personally from that date on and they would admit their breeding programs were greatly enhanced by the knowledge they took from the experience. No one acted like they knew it all and many, many questions were asked.

We did all gain new knowledge from having our own scoring sheets for each horse and then comparing them to Mr. Brysch's scores. The discussion that followed was excellent.

I've also attended breeding seminars at Hilltop Farm and other locations and it was always the same way. I've just never heard (before Mr. Balch's post) of a situation where the attendees weren't there to take in as much knowledge as they could. Perhaps others can weigh in if they know of any but I'm just so shocked that the USAE's seminar was so negative.

[Robby Johnson]

Ilona,

What exactly do you want?

Why don't you make a bullet list like Cheryl and state what it is you expect USAE to deliver to you as a breeder, in terms of programs and awards?

Robby

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

[ise@ssl]

Robby = I've done that in the thread. Sorry you seem to dislike me - but we all can't have the same opinion - would make for a very beige world.

I think this thread did a lot of good for the entire issue. Was it up front and sometimes very firm in opinions & pointing out errors of fact - well yes - but is this a new concept for the USAE(formerlyAHSA)???

It seems historically the wheels that squeak get oiled - perhaps the breeders haven't squeaked enough in the past and people are offended that we are here saying Squeak - squeak - squeak.

[Robby Johnson]

I don't dislike you at all. Over the course of this very long thread you have actually had quite a few good things to contribute.

It seems as if you are still struggling on where you, as an private enterpriser, need to define your boundaries between your business and USAE. It seems as if you have unresolved conflict, and in situations such as those it's sometimes best to redefine your main points.

Robby

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

[ise@ssl]

Unresolved conflicts between my business and the USAE??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Sorry don't get that.
To this point my breeding business hasn't really received anything from the USAE.

[Cartier]

Oh Robby please don’t go down this road… You’re a gentleman, say “Thank you Ilona,” bow and sweetly walk away… and I’ll send you a bottle of anything you like.

[Tiki]

Mr. Balch, thanks for chiming in. Perhaps your voice has made the difference.

Cheryl, thanks for pulling together all the points we offered. You mentioned in one post that you put out a notice in the USA Equestrian magazine for people to write in about what they wanted from the breeding committee and no one from the warmblood community responded. There are no warmbloods listed on USA Equestrian website or in the list in your article. All I see is
Andalusian
Arabian
Hackney Pony
Half Arabian
Hunter Breeding
Morgan
National Show Horse
Paso Fino
Roadster
Saddlebred
Welsh
That's why I never responded. That's probably why warmblood breeders haven't attended the Breeder's Committee Meetings. There's no mention anywhere of any 'breed' or warmblood.

I'll also assume that your article in the July/August issue was written long before this thread started and will make no further comment on that.

I applaud your agenda. I think it encompasses all that we, as warmblood and sport horse breeders, have asked for. I look forward to seeing as many of these items as possible come to fruition and will do what I can to make them happen. Thanks for listening.

Sheila O'Keefe
Tranquility Farm
Charles Town, WV

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Robby Johnson]

Thank you Ilona!

http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii

[AlanBalch]

Hello again, everyone.

As I get ready for today's third shift of pending matters (!), I thought I'd check back in again. But this may be it for awhile, since a few others things are on my agenda these days, too.

First off, thank you for the positive and kind responses. It was Jimmy Wofford who reminded me years ago of the old saying, attributed I think he said to Gen. George Marshall, "It's amazing what we can accomplish if nobody cares who gets the credit." Words of wisdom always. Hard for us humans to live by, but worth trying!

And away we go from the platitudes I so dearly love.

Only one informational point I think needs clarifying from my long post. At the presentation in '97 by Hanfried Haring in Virginia, there was a big cross-section there mainly of Hunter and Jumper constituencies, including professional horsemen and competition management, since also on the agenda was a contentious discussion of the mileage/date rules.

So on the breeding and organizational issues, there were all kinds of cross-currents and trade-offs storming away, with some people resisting the idea of a unified pedigree/performance linked database. Let's face it: there are a few among us in the sport (maybe not here, but maybe so) who don't want the potential buyer to be able to determine with verifiable accuracy just which horse this really is, and what his background really is. And Collecting accurate and timely information must be done; somebody must do it and be accountable for it.

For better breeding, of course, this is all essential. But there are some components and motivations within our little world where such verifiable information might be, shall we say, "troublesome" to business-as-has-always-been-usual. Hanfried was quite amazed at the openness of the discussion, I must say, because he's heard all the reasons before for not doing what must be done to advance and improve breeding.

Enough of that. Onward we march, and let's oil the squeaky wheels out in California, if not sooner, with plenty of good cheer and positive thinking. And for every squeak that we oil, let's hope two or three more start up. Then we'll really be getting somewhere! That will mean that a lot more wheels are turning faster and faster, and we need every one of them.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiki:
Mr. Balch, thanks for chiming in. Perhaps your voice has made the difference.

Cheryl, thanks for pulling together all the points we offered. You mentioned in one post that you put out a notice in the USA Equestrian magazine for people to write in about what they wanted from the breeding committee and no one from the warmblood community responded. There are no warmbloods listed on USA Equestrian website or in the list in your article. All I see is
Andalusian
Arabian
Hackney Pony
Half Arabian
Hunter Breeding
Morgan
National Show Horse
Paso Fino
Roadster
Saddlebred
Welsh
That's why I never responded. That's probably why warmblood breeders haven't attended the Breeder's Committee Meetings. There's no mention anywhere of any 'breed' or warmblood.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think maybe there's a fundamental dichotomy that needs to be addressed here.

The list of breeds that you see is actually a list of USAE divisions.In most of these cases, divisions are following breeds pretty closely - that is, people who breed Morgans affliliate themselves with the Morgan division quite nicely, and they don't feel the need for a separate "breeder" designation.

On the other hand, there is no breeding division for jumpers or eventers, and only barely a breeding division for dressage (incorporated into the main dressage discipline). Yet, because the bloodlines are all quite similar, you might expect one farm to breed hunters, jumpers, dressage, and event horses (possibly even driving horses) as part of a sport horse breeding program.

This is one reason sport horse breeders are kind of out in the cold. They may handle multiple breeds, so not be under the umbrella of a particular registry (let alone one affliated with USA Eq), and they may handle multiple disciplines, which means they get hit in the chops with multiple discipline fees if they show their young horses on the line in different disciplines, even though there may be only one or two shows a year.

There are not that many breeders, or that many in-hand shows out there. Perhaps there could be a separate discipline category, "Sport Horse Breeders", who would be allowed to show in Hunter Breeding and Dressage in-Hand classes for a single discipline fee.

[Thalia4Welsh]

I think the sport horse breeders will have to decide what awards they wish to sponsor for USAE - then they will getdivisions. It is, I believe, $1500 for a division sponsorship. Then you can have your points tabulated by USAE and have a sire roster for that particular division. Check out the various breeds and disciplines to see what a variety of categories that have been agreed upon by certain groups - and then sponsored.

Unless your particular breed or discipline is part of the USAE program, you will not get recognition by them! Until this is done, you cannot expect a great deal. Do your homework!Perhaps this is somewhat simplistic but I know from my own breed that this is the case.

There has been more progress made through the USAE efforts, and specifically those of Cheryll Frank, in the past 3 years than I can believe. You have heard me express before that I did not feel in my lifetime that I would ever see such progress made in sire recognition and tracking of offspring. What this is doing to honor the ponies themselves and the Welsh and half-Welsh sires of pony hunters, pony breeding participants, and pony jumpers is remarkable BUT somewhere along the way these divisions had to be created. A case in point is the pony jumpers, the new kid on the block.

Thalia Gentzel

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[CM Frank]

Thalia is absolutely correct. The breeds that are listed in the Horse of the Year programs are there because the breed registries or discipline enthusiasts (Pony Jumpers is a good example) lobbied to have those awards programs created and administered by USAE. It is somewhat like AKC. The breed registries or the discipline committees define the rules, have them added to the USAE rule book, encourage shows to become recognized and the points and rankings are tabulated. Even though USDF and USEA manage their own awards programs (including Dressage Breeding) they operate under rules that have become part of the USAE rule book.

New breeds and disciplines are added all the time, like the (above mentioned) Pony Jumpers, Andalusians and Paso Finos.

[CM Frank]

Another point I'd like to make is this.

Even though the Horse of the Year categories themselves are limited to certain breeds/disciplines, USAE recognizes over 150 separate breeds and countless crossbreds. Each (registered) horse entered into the database receives a code specific to its breed registry and that information is preserved. It is therefore possible to pull leading studbook, sire, dam, breeder, owner, horse and rider rankings for the entire database. As we add new and correct the existing records the data will become more and more valuable to the industry.

[siegi b.]

To CM Frank - Pardon me for being a little dense on the subject, but I don't quite understand how all this could work out for warmblood breeders that provide horses for dressage and jumping, disciplines you find in the Olympics and World Equestrian Games. It goes back to my original question.. why would a warmblood breeder like myself want to become a member of the USAE? My Dutch warmblood horses don't fit into any existing category, so what would the USAE do for me?

[dancinglite]

Believe it or not I waded through 95% of all the posts and you are not alone. We have the same problem in Canada.
I would like to make one observation re CM Franks list regarding the identification number. About 3 years ago the WBFSH mandated that all registries assign a UELN (Universal Equine Life Number) to every registered horse in the world. This number ties the horse to its breeding pedigree and performance record and this number can be accessed by any national body. Why would you want to do this all over again when it is already in place. My own stallion has one (the first in Canada) and it was issued to me by the US!!! He is American registered and the only stallion activly being marketed in the US with Cozy's Commander eventing bloodlines.

http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[Thalia4Welsh]

Tonight I was fortunate to be able to watch the hunter classic at High Prairie Farm in Parker, CO - and was fascinated to see that almost all or perhaps all of the 15 who were called back were warmbloods! I am not familiar with any of the horses to know which were American bred and which were imported. The point I would like to make is that we are seeing a predominant number of warmbloods on the hunter scene - and that the breeders and exhibitors of these animals need to get the word out about their particular bloodlines.
don't fall into "mediocrity" of marketing and promotion.

Sport horse breeders and exhibitors, IMO you need to figure out the ways to "toot your own horn" as no one else will do it for you. One way that we have found effective in Welsh ponies/cobs is to take out cooperative ads in the Chronicle (of course!) or USAE Equestrian magazines. A 9 space format is legible but in-expensive. When you have big winners at a certain event you can get together and do that horn tooting. Of course, the COTH Stallion Issue or Horse In Sport or Horse Show Issue works wonderfully well. Go across breed lines and plug the American bred sport horse!

You can contact me if you want to do a coop sort of thing in the Chronicle as I have a good rate with them over the years. Promotion of your product can run a good second to the intrigue of breeding itself!

Thoughts from Thalia Gentzel

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[CM Frank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't quite understand how all this could work out for warmblood breeders that provide horses for dressage and jumping, disciplines you find in the Olympics and World Equestrian Games. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for one thing you wouldn't be ranked on the proposed USAE Leading Breeder list if you aren't a member. We tie the Breeders' ID number to the record of their products, which will enable breeders to track their horses in the future--even through name changes, on rankings and lists and specialized Breeder Reports.

[obie]

OK, Cheryl, Alan, Denny any Breeding committee person, any interested party.... I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest something that may sound odd but if we want to support breeders in this country, we need to help them sell horses. That is really the bottom line. I KNOW we have some top horses out there, unfortunately we are at a disadvantage due to our large country and the lack of young-horse shows / mare shows / stallion shows and the like. It is really hard for someone at the top of their game to come to my back yard and see a single, just started 2 year old, no matter how nice it is. That is one of the big allures of Europe, see 50 horses at the same level in one weekend. The reality is we have very few farms with enough horses to make general horse shopping worth while. And as stated before, we do not have the depth of young riders and trainers willing to bring horses along correctly in a cost effective manner for the breeder. I truely believe that if the NGB could help breeders get horses in the hands of capable riders & trainers, you will see a surge in USAE membership and some "home bred" horses who are out of this world. What is my suggestion? Enter the on-line video auction (The NAWPN is considering doing something similar to this) )Before you say no way, listen to the parameters:

(Forgive me for the "brainstorming" approach to this, I was thinking fast and my fingers were trying to keep up)

1) This is a SELECT sale, your horse will be evaluated and accepted into the sale, it is not a free for all

2) The sale is for young horses from yearlings to horses just started undersaddle, say up to 4 years old. And the breeder must be the current owner of the horse. No "agents" allowed.

3)If a breeder has a horse to enter, he has first nominate the horse under a specific catagory,(e.g. 2 year old unbroke, 2 year old undersaddle, yearling etc etc) a video format that must be adhered to will be what that breeder must then supply to the USAE the video should contain things like conformation shots, triangle, free jumping, grooming & tacking up - whatever we would come up with that is age-appropriate. Lets say that nomination fee is 100.00 That 100.00 get the video evaluated by a single indivdual on the selection commitee based on dicipline. So with your 100.00 you say you want your horse evaluated as a jumper, hunter, dressage or event prospect. You may add evaluations for say 75.00 each.

4) The video and all appropriate breeding information is evaluated by the committee member(s), with a some standardized score sheet. So you get points for pedigree quality, conformation, movement all the things we would normally judge.

5) The top, say, 25 horses in each category are then eligible for the select sale.

6) At this point, The top 25 horses in each category are offered into the select sale, and the breeder then pays another fee - another 100.00 perhaps to enter the sale or they can take their horse out. The horses are put on DVD's for further evaluation by committe members. Each horse is looked at by 2 of the committee members of the breeder's choosing (i.e. two diciplines)

7)These committee members score again and write specific commetns about the horses on the video. In the mean time, the breeder is responsible for getting basic xrays and medicle info that must be sent to a NGB vet.

8) Finally, these sales videos along with the evaluations are put on a DVD and sent, for free, to USAE members interested in the auction and sent for a fee to non-,members.

9) Prices would start at a standard level e.g. yealings start at 5500.00, 2 yrs olds 7500, 3 yr olds 10,000, 3 yr olds 12,000 - or whatever but the focus being all horses start at the exact same price because, since it is a selct sale, the quality issues have already been sorted out and all are good quality. Let the market then move the horse's price.

10) Like the charity auction that the chronicle forum ran, this auction could run over a 3 month period or something like that. The NGB then gets 10% of the sale price - which is what you would at least be paying a middle man anyway.

11)As an added incentive, (and here's where Denny and others will need to "put your money where your mouth is") I would like to see the top 4 year old in each catagory eligble to be sent, for free to a top trainer (must be willing to participate in this and be pre selected by the NGB) who agrees for one year to put top traning, care and riding into the horse AT NO COST TO THE BREEDER which is then eligible to be sold after that training or goes back to the breeder. That is how we will get some top bred horses in the hands of top trainers, but the trainers & riders must be willing to help it along by focusing on improving the US bred horse status and not focusing on money.

Benefits to breeders, for less than 500.00 you can have your horse evaluated, put in a prestigious select sale and seen by hundreds of people. Even if the horse does not sell initially, you have a great marketing product for that horse. Benefits to buyers: you have horses evaluated by people you (hopefully) trust and while you don't see the horse in person (or perhaps that could be an option in that 3 month time frame) you have a series of evaluations and can see many comparable horses.

Pie in the sky perhaps, it is work and a leap of faith on both sides, the breeder AND the NGB. Would love to hear comments. good Bad and Ugly - its a thought, I am willing to help out with this if the NGB is seriously interested in such a thing.

On a side note, from Cheryls list of bullets, I think the number one thing needs to be every horse competing in this country needs one ID number and it is linked to dam, sire, breeder and if you don't have that info, then you don't get to show in any USAE divisions unless you go through some lengthy and costly process to get your horse approved with a number without the information required. extra awards are not going to get these people writing down the info, not being allowed to show will!

Mary Jo Barkaszi
Indigo Acres Sporthorses
www.marelines.com (http://www.marelines.com)

[siegi b.]

To CM Frank - my registry lists the horses I have bred and that do well in their sport in their publications. They also follow horses of their breed regardless of who the current owner is.
In my opinion it would be in the USAE's best interest to promote the breeds that represent this country in the Olympics and World Equestrian Games assuming that is where we don't want to be at Europe's mercy for horse talent. Given that assumption, shouldn't the USAE recognize that there has been a shift from thoroughbreds to warmbloods, and acknowledging that shift, maybe it's time to have a shift in USAE's corporate mindset?
I don't expect you to agree with me given your background, but wanted to get this out for comment anyway.

[siegi b.]

To obie - in general, I like your idea of how to conduct the select sale. Maybe the time frame of 3 months needs to be shortened a bit, but other than that I think it could fly.
As far the the horse ID goes, there are too many other efforts already in place to get horses micro-chipped and registered, so I doubt that the USAE will succeed in getting one ID number for every horse. In an ideal world, there should be one number per horse and everybody should be able to work with that - USAE, registry, USDF, etc.

[Cospi]

WHEW! It took me a couple of days to read this ENTIRE thread, but I am sooooo glad I did! As a nobody trainer of "racetrack rejects" or whatever is suitable that I can afford; I would be incredibly happy to have an arrangement with a breeder of quality prospects to start. I know that I am not alone in this. This is actually something that I have thought about for the past few years, but I never had the guts to approach any of our local breeders. And they have some real quality prospects!
I think this thread has been a wonderful eye-opener for anyone who chose to read it. I also hope everything that has been proposed does end up becoming fact. I firmly believe we do need to showcase our American bred sporthorses so the Americans will want to shop at home. I think for the training facilities for prospects it needs to be a bit more regional than national, as that might prove to be easier to get the buyers to shop at home if they don't even have to buy a plane ticket.
I also want to add that other than the local breeders that I know, I am ashamed to say I am not familiar with any other breeders. This point has been discussed, but I do think that it is imperative to get our breeders recognized by our competitors. If they don't know the breeders exist, how are they going to find their way there to buy? I am also in favor of making it mandatory that in order to show, your horse must have the breeding info or it doesn't qualify for an award. This, more than anything else, I believe will make the competitors aware of their horses pedigree.
I know that this thread is probably dead by now, but that was my 2 cents anyway! Good luck to everyone in their endeavors!

[Thalia4Welsh]

Obie,
You have some excellent marketing ideas but I am wondering if it is the job of the NGB to do this. It still seems to me that the sport horse/pony breeders need to band together to do marketing ventures of this sort.

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[Bethe Mounce]

Have been reading through more of the posts and something came to me from the depths of my memory. Living in Italy for 10 years during my junior years was certainly an education...every year, in order to promote the Italian bred horse, a sporthorse festival was held right outside of Rome at Tor di Quinto whereby all Italian bred 4 year olds were presented in hand, on the flat and over a course of fences. Breeders brought their young horses to riding schools a year prior to the event for breaking and preparation for this event. Frequently these young horses were sold at ringside while completing their course of fences. There was no auction per se, but more like "who makes the best offer on this horse?" kind of deal. Lots of haggling over prices which of course, is a very popular way to buy in Italy! One never paid the price listed! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course, Italy is small geographically and Rome rather easy to get to. Breeders always named their horses using the farm name so you always knew where the horse came from. Delle Fiocche was quite popular as well as del Colle Rosso--both are still vibrant to this day in competition.

The idea of seeing so many horses at one venue is great; each breeder paid a nominating fee to the Italian national federation and for that fee, each horse was recorded into the national database. It wasn't cheap, but it was one set fee and one didn't pay anything else.

This event was called the Premio Allevamento, I believe it still is held today in the fall. I participated with a couple of young horses while I was there......well over 300 horses and tons of riders and trainers looking for the next prospect.

It was a way to promote the Italian bred horse, perhaps a formula similar to this could be a way to promote the American bred horse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Bethe Mounce-Blasienz - that is exactly the kind of thing we need here, and like the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Sales Fest, I am sure it would be supported by the breeders. The big issue is to find out what it would take to get the buyers to come? For the most part, breeders are not buying each others horses. How do we get trainers that are looking for prospects for themselves or their clients to come to see a place that would have 300 youngsters (weanling to 4?) available to see?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Bethe Mounce-Blasienz - that is exactly the kind of thing we need here, and like the Mid-Atlantic Hanoverian Sales Fest, I am sure it would be supported by the breeders. The big issue is to find out what it would take to get the buyers to come?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there was ALOT of socializing before, during and after ALL sponsored by various companies such as Fiat, Mercedes Benz and others. This event lasts about 4 days; first day is the inhand jog with vet check and judges watching; horse is measured, checked for lameness and breeder has to be there with all the paperwork to prove this horse is indeed the horse that is entered. The other three days were the showing of horse on the flat for about 3-5 min prior to jumping a course of fences. The ring was always huge so one could have plenty of room to turn; fences were probably about 3 foot, horses were not allowed to school in the arena, you went straight from the collecting ring to the show arena just like at a regular show. Breeders in Italy didn't have to pay super huge fees for registering their horses at this event, so for them, it wasn't expensive mainly due to the fact it was a one time fee which ultimately gave the horse a # so that it's future show record could be tracked--the fee wasn't real high--probably $200 per horse--keep in mind it was a one time fee to one federation and it was always paid by the breeder; after that the owner was responsible for showing the horse at sanctioned shows (just about every show was sanctioned by FISE, Italy's national equestrian federation). The evening before, everyone got the "prize list" at the same time, plus this event was held when there was no other horseshows going on...that was critical so that everyone could come. I believe one year, a fashion show with women in rather unique garb (you get my point!) was held; other times its a catered banquet where there was a chance for riders, breeders and trainers to just talk in a non pressurized atmosphere. Any chance to socialize and argue without outside influences was high on the priority list....dinners would last until way after midnight. And every breeder knew their horses were better than any other breeders! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Lots of bragging, lots of machismo and it was FUN. Lots of yelling about what schooling method was best for this horse or that rider etc.....then again, this is the Italian way....no one holds back, everyone speaks their mind and really no one holds anything against anyone else. Eyebrows may be lifted, but nothing more than that, because everyone knew "united we stand, divided we fail."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For the most part, breeders are not buying each others horses. How do we get trainers that are looking for prospects for themselves or their clients to come to see a place that would have 300 youngsters (weanling to 4?) available to see?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These breeders didn't buy each others horses either, it was the trainers and riders who did the buying. Plus the prices were not high in that whoever offered the most for that horse, got the horse. Very very informal when it came to the actual purchase....the haggling was unreal! Usually, when I got off the horse as I finished, the new owner was keen to get on and try horse out. The riders that rode these horses were not all professionals either, us junior riders were in great demand as we had no qualms about riding youngsters...we were immortal you know! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Also, this event was well advertised in advance. Breeders were notified first about the details and then it trickled down to trainers and riders. Pretty much every breeder had a "deal" with a riding school.......breeder sent his crop of 3 year olds to school, breeder paid the board, vet and shoe bills for a year. School paid for any entry fees, young riders got free experience with youngsters under total supervision of trainer...we were never left alone with the youngsters. This was a competition as well, so whoever won, also got some money.

The horse industry in Italy is regulated, much more so than here in that every riding school has to maintain accreditation and be reviewed every year, and trainers are reviewed every year. It helps to keep quality above par.

I think, due to America being so huge, that if the country was divided into 4 regions, each region hosting a "breed show," and have it at a time when there are no shows, advertise heavily at least the first time, keep expenses down by seeing if judges would donate their time and vets donate their time, and use local pony clubs for volunteer help as well as anyone else expressing a desire, I think the breeders just might be willing to bring some of their youngsters that are for sale regardless of their age......the only qualification is that you have to be able to prove the horse was bred in America. Granted, if you open it to all, then there will be some not so nice horses, but we can all learn at the same time what constitutes nice and what doesn't. It was always a huge learning experience for me...how to show a not so nice horse off, how to manage an unruly youngster in public, how to talk to prospective owners about what I had or hadn't done with the youngster I had. Plus, I learned more about what riders and trainers were looking for in a horse. These were all jumping horses...dressage wasn't at the forefront at the time. Every horse was sold by the time it was all over......sometimes sold via a paper napkin! Some years breeders made money, other years they didn't.....depended on demand for this or that type of horse, or what stallion was producing good babies or what cycle the market was going thru at the time.

This event dictated often trends in riding, schooling, and types of horses...and even fashion stuff! There was no SET price for a horse, there was an estimated value placed on the horse by the breeder, but nothing set in stone which gave rise to the wonderful haggling done at ringside. I can remember getting off my last horse I took to this event and my coach, the breeder and the buyer were haggling over $10 difference in price the breeder wanted vs what the owner wanted to pay...I laughed so hard I almost came off! I took the prospective owner aside, told him that I'd pay the extra $10 for the horse for him and voila......the horse was his and I got a teeny tiny bit of credit for the sale of this wonderful horse that I cried buckets over as she went to her new home.

It was a terrific event and extremely educational for the uninformed about exactly what was going on in the horse world in Italy.

[siegi b.]

Darlyn - I agree with you completely... the problem has always been a lack of prospective buyers at these "sales fests". I've attended auctions given by different organizations and it's sad to see how few people attend. On top of that, the few that do bid apparently think that most of these horses can be bought at meatmarket prices regardless of the quality.

Maybe the USAE could help in getting invitations out to the members in the respective region (or make that list available to the people putting on the sales event). I also think that maybe some prequalification of the horses presented may be a good idea - sort of like the "elite auctions" in Europe. We could do an elite foal auction followed by an elite riding horse/broodmare/young prospect sale. Then the trick will be to make it a first rate event by offering refreshments and snacks and nice facilities, and also get lots of press through the Chronicle and other local publications. The monies obtained by charging a 10% commission could pay for the facility, professional auctioneer and advertising. Again, without lots of prospective buyers none of this will work. So how do we get the prospective buyers interested to attend in numbers?

[theponylady]

That's the big thing, getting people to show up! The only sale I know of that has ever done really well was the big Glenwood auction. They spent 10s of thousands of dollars and quite a few years promoting their sales. The horses spent a minimum of 30 days at Glenwood being fitted up, they were vetted, any problems found were announced when the horse entered the ring, and the horses were available for trial in the month before the sale. There was of course free champagne(people's pocket books tend to open when they've had a couple drinks), and the event was a big social event. Any horses in the sale were not allowed to be sold beforehand-if people were interested, they had to attend, or they had to call and bid over the phone while the specific horse was being auctioned.

I've attended a lot of other sales over the years, but none of them brought the numbers of buyers to them that the Glenwood sale did, and the prices were not nearly as high. They made good money with the sale, but they also spent huge amounts to make it work, which I'm sure was quite a gamble in the beginning.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:
Darlyn - I agree with you completely... the problem has always been a lack of prospective buyers at these "sales fests". I've attended auctions given by different organizations and it's sad to see how few people attend. On top of that, the few that do bid apparently think that most of these horses can be bought at meatmarket prices regardless of the quality.

Maybe the USAE could help in getting invitations out to the members in the respective region (or make that list available to the people putting on the sales event). I also think that maybe some prequalification of the horses presented may be a good idea - sort of like the "elite auctions" in Europe. We could do an elite foal auction followed by an elite riding horse/broodmare/young prospect sale. Then the trick will be to make it a first rate event by offering refreshments and snacks and nice facilities, and also get lots of press through the Chronicle and other local publications. The monies obtained by charging a 10% commission could pay for the facility, professional auctioneer and advertising. Again, without lots of prospective buyers none of this will work. So how do we get the prospective buyers interested to attend in numbers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karen Vicencio

[CM Frank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In my opinion it would be in the USAE's best interest to promote the breeds that represent this country in the Olympics and World Equestrian Games assuming that is where we don't want to be at Europe's mercy for horse talent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

USAE recognizes ALL the breeds that represent this country. It seems to me that some of you forget that Driving (Morgans), Reining (Quarter Horses, Paints, Arabs and Morgans), and Endurance (Arabs) are also FEI disciplines. The beauty of the Olympic/International disciplines is that they are utterly democratic. ANY breed of horse can excel--witness the success of the Spanish Baroque horses recently.

I'm curious about your personal comments about my 'background.' I happen to be a Holsteiner breeder, and as we all know, the Holsteiner has had a huge impact on the breeding programs of both the Dutch and Oldenburg studbooks. However, I do not allow my personal breeding preferences to prevent me from trying to create an accurate, statistical data base for USAE and its members.

[Joanne]

Is SOBA still functioning?

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siegi b.:

In my opinion it would be in the USAE's best interest to promote the breeds that represent this country in the Olympics and World Equestrian Games assuming that is where we don't want to be at Europe's mercy for horse talent. Given that assumption, shouldn't the USAE recognize that there has been a shift from thoroughbreds to warmbloods, and acknowledging that shift, maybe it's time to have a shift in USAE's corporate mindset?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I'm aware, the breeds that are listed as separate disciplines/divisions in the Rule Book aren't there so much because a bunch of old white guys with big cigars decided they were the only worthwhile breeds, but because breed organizations existed that chose to affiliate with AHSA/USA Eq. I'm sure if, say, "The American Bred Warmblood Association" wanted to affiliate with and create a division inside USA Eq, it could, on terms similar to those given to other registry/discipline groups.

So, how would you structure a Sport Horse breeding discipline?

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> On a side note, from Cheryls list of bullets, I think the number one thing needs to be every horse competing in this country needs one ID number and it is linked to dam, sire, breeder and if you don't have that info, then you don't get to show in any USAE divisions unless you go through some lengthy and costly process to get your horse approved with a number without the information required. extra awards are not going to get these people writing down the info, not being allowed to show will! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you do that, you are going to make the prospects MUCH WORSE for good horses that have fallenon hard time (uncaring owners) and ended up a cheap auctions.

My sister's current Advanced level eventer was bought off the meat truck at the Marshall auction as a weaanling. SHe doesn't know the breed, let alone the pedigree. Do you REALLY want to make people pay EXTRA money to be allowed to show horses like that?

An incentive to make people report the info when they know it makes sense. But to PUNISH people who have horses of unknown breeding seems highly counterproductive.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[siegi b.]

To CM Frank - I believe I said "the USAE should PROMOTE the breeds that represent this country". Your response that the USAE RECOGNIZES all FEI breeds was never in question. I understand that the USAE is an organization that got its start organizing and administrating horse shows (as in American Horse Show Association) and that's where their expertise lies. So maybe it's wrong to assume that this organization (even though renamed) wants to or is capable of doing the things that have been suggested/requested in this thread.
And CM Frank, let's not be paranoid about "personal" questions... I merely referred to your background as employee of the USAE.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I totally agree with Janet. This country has some top horses of unknown pedigree (including American Mustangs) that someone gave them a chance. Requiring pedigree and breeder is just not possible. I would just request that the owner produce a copy of their Bill of Sale to get their USAE number. That will usually include any known information about the horse, including a description. That would just encourage anyone that has the information available to include it.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[ise@ssl]

But every horse should be required to have an ID # - even if it is a mustang - why shouldn't that breed get credit for a horse that competes successfully. If all of the pedigree & breeder is not known it should so indicate. BUT - in the case of some of the examples CFrank listed where they have the sire/dam & breed registry and UNKNOWN for the BREEDER - that application should be BOUNCED out of the system.

I feel strongly that a copy of the registration papers should be required for the ID#. We aren't exactly an industry that is known for being upfront with all information - after all - the term "horse trader" isn't exactly a complimentary term.

I have to believe some people who deal in horses are nervous about this system because we all know there are many who are rather "creative" about the competition careers of the horses they are marketing. The ID system would eliminate this creativity and I dare say the "resume" for many horses will be a tad shorter than previously represented.

[Janet]

If the horse is registered- it is fine to require a copy of the papers. But I can think of plenty of cases where the owner knows (or at least THINKS they know) the name of the sire and dam, but not the name of the breeder.

Or the converse.

For instance, I know that my horse Night Music was bred by Julie Andrew at Renaissance Farm. I know the sire was a TB being promoted as a sport horse sire under the name Nocturne. But I also know that wasn't his Jockey Club name. I have no idea what his Jockey Club name was. I know her dam was a TBxQH named Bayberry. But I have no idea if she was appendix registered, and no idea of her parents names.

And I bought her from the breeder as a yearling.

I porovided all that information when I applied for a Horse ID.

If the horse has been bought and sold several times before applying for a Horse ID number,and it is not registered, it can be very difficult to find the breeder.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I feel strongly that a copy of the registration papers should be required for the ID#. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not all horses HAVE reqistration papers.

And there is nothing to prevent an owner selling the horse WITHOUT providing the papers.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But every horse should be required to have an ID # - even if it is a mustang - why shouldn't that breed get credit for a horse that competes successfully. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, every horse has to have a Horse ID to compete in USEF competition. There is no way to imposee that on horses outside USEF competiton.

The vast majority of horses, even show horses, in this country AREN'T any particular breed. There is no breed to GET the credit.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[mbp]

I think every horse is going to be required to have an ID #.

The issues are then

The "more than one" number issue that we have with trying to stay on top of USDF #s, USAEq #s, registry #s, local GMO #s etc. for horses for various award

and

Whether or not a horse with no pedigree info is eligible for HOY awards.

and

Whether a horse with pedigree info but no breeder info filled in should be eligible for HOY or other competition and/or whether a copy of the registry papers should accompany the USAEq id # application.

Is that right?

I think the Fairview and previous post go to the bullet point of not allowing HOY for horses with no pedigrees. I would agree that a horse whose pedigree is unknown should not be penalized. We have so much to try to accomplish, dwelling on something that will frustrate people and be perceived as unfair is probably not the highest and best use of time and effort. THere will always be situations where this info is hard to come by

I guess I can also think of situations where someone might know of the breeding on horse and yet not know the breeder. One of those "the people who used to live up the road bred that pretty little paint mare of theirs to a tb that a guy here at the track used to have and then they sent all their stock to auction when they moved and the guy over there bought her back bc he had seen her in the pasture and always liked her. Can't remember their names..." That kind of thing is still gonna be around.

If there are registry papers, I think it is good to have them when applying, but to be honest, some of the registries take a bit to get the papers to the breeders.

Getting things down to ONE NUMBER (aka Nirvana) will take lobbying and efforts with more than just USAEq, but USAEq does have the capacity to be "Borglike" if they want to push this issue with other orgs.

[ise@ssl]

Well I know it's not a super term but "GRADE" does refer to horses of unknown pedigree and if someone wanted to support a GRADE breed category - why not put the un-pedigreed horses there?

[poltroon]

Right - there are nice horses that don't have papers, and a system for horseIDs should respect that while encouraging people to dig for the info they have.

I like FHC's suggestion of a bill of sale... that could work. Keeps people from leaving out info because they're lazy, but doesn't penalize them for info that is not available.

OTTBs, particularly geldings, used to be sold without papers all the time, because without the papers the horse couldn't race again. And there's a whole vast range of horses born to owners who aren't really breeders and just don't care.

Rattle N' Hum, one of David O'Connor's top eventers, was on his way to dog food when an event rider took him home.

[ise@ssl]

Well I don't understand how people can fill in the dam/sire or whatever information if they have NO PAPERS. Even if the horse was represented to you as being sired by a certain horse or "out of" a certain horse - unless you have papers to go by or a DNA verification from DAVIS - why put information into a data base that isn't verifiable??

After all - that's whey they "type" the winners at the track because ringers have been known to win races. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Janet]

Because it is better thatn nothing.

My sister has bred the asforementioned "off the meat truck" mare to a registered TB stallion (ET as the mare is still competing). The resulting foal will never be registerable in any registery. But if the foal does well, it will be a reflection of the sire, and I am sure Denny would want that informatioon captured.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Cartier]

Janet,
Regarding your statement:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My sister's current Advanced level eventer was bought off the meat truck at the Marshall auction as a weaanling <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do not mean to hijack this very important thread, but there is something so sickening about a weanling ever being on the meat truck to begin with that I just have to comment.

I will concede up front that it does no good what-so-ever to point fingers and cast blame, but how many hands could a weanling have gone through in its life? I can’t help but think that a breeder sent this weanling to the meat auction… and felt comfortable doing so because there was a high likelihood that no one would ever know. Emphatically ANY breeder who is sending their weanlings to the meat market needs to STOP BREEDING IMMEDIATELY. Even if the breeding was an accident, breeders need to accept responsibility for allowing the circumstances which led up to the accident.

When we humans know that we can remain anonymous, we will act in ways that we would not if we knew we’d be individually identified. (from Psych 101: De-individuation encourages contra normative behavior.”)

Without a single universal identification number (attached at birth or shortly thereafter) breeders are able to function in anonymity. They can avoid responsibility for the generations they produce. The breeders on this thread are, in many ways, exceptions to the norm. Still, when we are speaking of ways to get the credit breeders richly deserve, I think it’s important that we are held accountable as well, and a permanent universal I.D. number is a step in the right direction in that regard.

For animals with no proof of parentage (or DNA on file) a number could still be issued to track the animal over it’s lifetime. I think it simply involves a shift in thinking, which, while not without problems, would have tremendous benefits.

[Janet]

We know who bought her from the "meat man". But the "meat man" of course had no record of who had sent her to the auction.

Sportscar has a USAE/USEF registration number, a USEA registration number, and an FEI number, so she has no shortatge of identifying numbers. Just no breeding info.

And I agree that it is awful that anyone would send a weanling to a cheap auction where it is likely to go for meat. Unfortunatley, it happens all the time, and I can think of nothing the USAE/USEF can do that would make a difference.

If the government (state or federal) were actively involved in licensing animals for breeding, there might be something they could do. But I don't know anyone who wants the goverment involed on that level.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Cartier]

Janet,
I agree that we can’t legislate morality. Like you, I don’t favor government intervention. Change takes time… I’d be happy with just a subtle shift in attitude, with a focus on our responsibilities as breeders as well as our rights. In time “how responsible a breeder is” will be a factor for purchasers to consider (though probably never as important as bloodlines and phenotype). Still, it’s a step in the right direction.

And again, this is off topic and I apologize to everyone.

Elaine

[obie]

Quote: If you do that, you are going to make the prospects MUCH WORSE for good horses that have fallenon hard time (uncaring owners) and ended up a cheap auctions.

My sister's current Advanced level eventer was bought off the meat truck at the Marshall auction as a weaanling. SHe doesn't know the breed, let alone the pedigree. Do you REALLY want to make people pay EXTRA money to be allowed to show horses like that?

An incentive to make people report the info when they know it makes sense. But to PUNISH people who have horses of unknown breeding seems highly counterproductive.

Janet, Yes I do think there will be the horse out there that is all deserving to show and cannot have verifiable parentage - however, I think it will NOT be the norm, and Yes, I think you should have to pay a one-time fee if you don't know it. Not as a punishishment but as an incentive for people to take the effort to make sure people competing include that info on the Horse ID. If you don't know, then pay a fee, and that allows USAE to research the horse and possible FIND the pedigree and breeder. And it may very well never be found but the effort has been made. Without trying, no I don't think you should be able to compete. The american horse breeding enterprise will go nowhere without a system that is taken seriously and without a system that has consequences. As a buyer, you can ask for papers and other information. This has nothing to do with breed issues. A notarized & witnessed certificate of pedigree and breeder should be just fine, regardless of the breed or the mix of breeds a horse might be. Yes, the reed organizations are likely to be the best source of info, but there is no reason why that "little paint horse down the road" cannot be sold with such a certificate. This is thinking long term, it will be a bumpy road for a while until we get to the point that as soon as a sporthorse is bought, that buyer demands a CP and the market will push for knowing your horses' basic pedigrees & breeder. I think it is far more likely and detrimental to the USAE competitions for people to "blow off" the ID info and be able to pass a horse as something its not or say the horse has done more/less than it has - or be able to hide things. As someone stated, information is scary to many a "horse trader" and I think that is what we should worry about more than the occasional wonderful, loved horse that has no pedigree info. This will also HELP sensless slaughter disasters becasue horses CAN be tracked. Will some fallthrough the woodwork - without a doubt, but we MUST be serious about this if in fact we are talking about improving the "american bred" horses. I am coming at this from a breeding perpective. If we wnat people to buy our horses in this country and prove we have world class horses, we need to make the info known and safe in such an ID system.

[poltroon]

I should add, if you make penalties for failing to provide breeding or breeder information on the forms, you encourage people to uh, 'make a guess,' which does not really help.

I don't see how USAE could possibly do any research to try to find out breeding information on a horse that isn't in front of them.

Cheryll: I hope someone has already figured out that the database should not be placing the great stallions "Unknown" or "Not Available" on any of the leading sire lists! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[obie]

Poltroon - I agree but that where a certificate of pedigree would come in. You wouldn't write anything without a CP. There is always going to be ways around something - I am just advocating taking this all seriously - so that the people showing don't go buy horses, get provided detailed breeding info (which I can guarentee most breeders are providing whenever they sell a horse), then blow it off when those nicely bred horses are doing well in competition. It should be EASIER for competitors to provide the info than not.

[Janet]

But only a very small percentage of the horses inthe US ever come in contact with the USAE/USEF. It is even a small percentage of the SHOW horses. There are planty of show categories that have nothing to do with the USAE/USEF.

If you want to do something that will affect "every horse bred in the US" that is WAY outside the scope of the USAE/USEF.

I think the emphais should be on making sure that, once a horse DOES have a USAE/USEF horse ID, there is a way to make sure it doesn't "lose" that information and get a new identity.

Technically, this is relatively easy, using a microchip, and scanning at shows to make sure it matches, and the horse doesn't have two microchips. (though i am sure someone would find a way round it). Politically, it is another question.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Fairview Horse Center]

If you require papers, then it will come down to just register them as anything, as cheap as you can and fudge the pedigree/breeder IF REQUIRED. Several registries don't require proof of pedigree in some if not all of their "books" including the Performance Horse Registry. Some registries cost as little as $35.00 for papers.

If they need to produce a Bill of Sale, at least you will have a record of who the horse was purchased from, and if they have to pull the paper and make a copy, they probalby will go ahead and fill out what is known.

I do agree that fudging is worse than nothing.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[mbp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>so that the people showing don't go buy horses, get provided detailed breeding info (which I can guarentee most breeders are providing whenever they sell a horse), then blow it off when those nicely bred horses are doing well in competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking for some sporthorse breeders, that may be true. In a lot of other areas that is just not the case. A lot of horses are sold with no real details of breeding info. Horse auctions are still a big supplier of low end horses and I have seen very few horses come through those with any breeding info whatsoever. I think we should direct efforts to making there be incentives and safety nets to getting the breeding info available (for example - the free online IDs for breeders mean that they can insure some of this for their horses NOW) but trying to address the huge issue of unpapered horses by punishing the owners so that they cannot show at a recognized show seems to be a low on the list priority when there are so many other issues.

THink about how far ahead Europe is on this. Now, think about Rusty. I believe he was shown FEI as an unknown for quiet awhile. You can keep plugging away, but you can't make it perfect

[Fairview Horse Center]

As a breeder, I can tell you that I intend to make sure every horse I breed has a USAE number before it leaves my posession, and I would love to provide a new owner with barcode lables for them to use when entering a show. However, I personally am not comfortable with microchips. I would pay to have a number tatooed somewhere, but I can't see that being a good option for verifying identity. I just have a personal problem with inserting something that can get lost/move/shift under the saddle area? Cause a muscle problem in the future?

Maybe we need that retina scan technology http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I think we need to start somewhere. Single number, copy of Bill of Sale in lieu of pedigree/breeder info, then database for show entries.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Kinsella]

Just a quick random thought regarding ID numbers. I fully believe that all breeders should do the ID's online (or on paper and mail them in, just get them done) so the information is attached to the horse. *THEN* when the horse is sold, they should THEMSELVES send a copy of the bill of sale to USAE. That way the Fed at least has a starting point for when Joe Schmoe (no offense Joe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) decides to get a recording number and forgets all the info the breeder gave him. When the "new" recording comes in, it will be caught as we will see that Joe already owns a 1998 DWB gelding that is chestnut with a star and hind socks.

Just my .02

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... so that the people showing don't go buy horses, get provided detailed breeding info (which I can guarentee most breeders are providing whenever they sell a horse), then blow it off when those nicely bred horses are doing well in competition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bought Music from the breeder 16 years ago. The only info I was provided was what I listed above. I think she TOLD me the JC name of the sire. But I forgot, and it certainly wasn't written down on anything she gave me.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[poltroon]

I thought the microchips go in the neck?

Kinsella, I think that's a great idea...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Janet]

Fairview,
I am not necessarily in favor of microchips either. But in order for the HID to be effective in preventing people "re-greeening" their horses, there has to be some kind of positive identification. Maybe DNA idntification will be cheap enough to work.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[ise@ssl]

My Vet told me that there is a problem with microchips in horses - they sometimes wander around the body.

[dancinglite]

I am supprised that this thread has taken this direction regarding ID numbers.
Here in Canada we are in the same situation as you are. A UELN number is assigned to every registered horse by the registry it becomes registered under. If the horse is registered under more than one registry then the first registry is the one that issues the UELN however in the case of breeding stock the owners may opt to select the registry that they are "approved" under instead.
This number comprises of the first few numbers that designate the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN with the year of birth and registration number included after. All other horses that are of "unknown origin or of known breeding but not registered" are assigned their passport number in place of a registry number.
If you look at some of the WBFSH ranked horses and click on their pedigree you could see an "unknown". So all that is required to track performance and breeding information is to ensure all competitions make the listing of the UELN as mandatory just as your USAE/USEF are now.This system is in place world wide so I don't understand why a second set of ID numbers are even required.A side note--what would happen to these "separate ID numbers" if the horse competes or is sold outside the country?

I realize that nothing will ever be perfect but sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.


http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglite

[ise@ssl]

Thanks Dancinglite - the system in Europe has worked so well - I don't understand people being all concerned about the "unknown" horses. Europe has unknown horses as well - and if you look at some warmblood pedigrees back several generations they do show up.

[Thalia4Welsh]

I agree with those who do not wish to see horses and their exhbitors penalized because breeding is unknown. I think that many organizations are working very hard to rectify this situation, though there will always be a few who have "slipped through the cracks". If a person wants additional recording beyond the USAE ID numbers, there are groups such as AWS and AWR who will inspect "grade" animals and get them into a book.

We ran into a situation where we had a lovely large pony filly who was a Welsh/TB on Welsh/Arab crossbred and not registerable by the Welsh Pony and Cob Society of America as she did not have a purebred Welsh parent. Therefore we chose to have her inspected by AWR/ASP to have her breeding on record to follow her throughout life. (She topped the inspection over horses as well as ponies which was a great reward for our outlay - and her new owners were tickled as well)

Wouldn't it be great if all the organizations could unite in adopting a "one number" system!!?? Meanwhile we need to count our blessings that USAE is doing what they are in tracking horses in at least some disciplines. We are seeing better recogniton for a growing number of good athletes, their owners, and their breeders.

www.heliconsportponies.com (http://www.heliconsportponies.com)
Alachua, FL

www.heliconshowstables.com (http://www.heliconshowstables.com)
Franktown, CO

[Bethe Mounce]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thalia4Welsh:
I agree with those who do not wish to see horses and their exhbitors penalized because breeding is unknown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! I have a homebred out of a grade mare by Fearless Ruler. The grade mare was purchased by me from Sullins College in Bristol, Tenn and named Tazwell due to having been purchased at an auction in Tazwell, Virginia. The resulting foal is named Terina and she is now 15. But, I have no clue about where her Momma came from and even though I researched it, no one could tell me a thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wouldn't it be great if all the organizations could unite in adopting a "one number" system!!??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yee haw.....that's a YES!!!!! My horses have two numbers, a USDF # and a USAEq #; the USDF # is lifetime, the USAEq # I record every year. Wouldn't it be great if all the disciplines were under ONE roof?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Meanwhile we need to count our blessings that USAE is doing what they are in tracking horses in at least some disciplines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely; it's a start in the right direction, but please, one # per horse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[1derful]

I was discussing how we can build a horse database at the warmbloods-sport Yahoo group, and a list member referred me to join the discussion here.

The one number per horse is definitely the key. Here is what I posted at the Yahoo group for your reference (between dash lines). To set it in the right context, we started the discussion with how to market the horses bred in the US, and because of my suggestion of using a web database application, it led to discussion of what PHR is doing, etc. (I did made a few small changes to fix typos, etc., but the content is the same.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
As for marketing what we produce, for a buyer to see some prospects
in the US, she/he may have to screen tons of video tapes, many poorly
made, and drive/fly several states. I am wondering if anyone can
report how the regional breeding clubs are doing. I hope with
several farms going in alliance, at least it's easier for the buyers
as well as the sellers. When one goes to Germany, you can easily see
a hundred pre-selected horses at an auction. If you go to the farms,
they are pretty close together that you can see many sales horses in
one day, not to mention the large commercial breeders also own
several hundred horses each. The breed organizationss also offer
facility to allow horse owners to bring in their horses on
regular "flea market" days.

The vast number of horse shows in a concentrated German area are also
sales tools. Horses exchange hands at mare or foal shows. It's
certainly not the case in the states. Most breed shows are small,
sometimes it is indeed like picking the top out of mediocores. My
non-riding hubby went to a in-hand show with me a few years ago, his
conclusion was, "if you wanted a pat on your own back and get a 90
cent ribbon, I could do that for you at home." We do have large and
prestigeous breed show like DAD, but it's certainly painful to
contemplate if I should let my horse take 3-day trailer ride each way
for that show. Is it really worth the expenses incurred, and more
importantly, the risk of my horse's health? I'm currently in such
dilemma for my young stallion Rubino. He has a 2-y-o son, whose owner
plans to show in-hand. They will travel from Georgia. My trainer
proposed to show Rubino in the performance show for PSG and I-1, and
perhapes get-of-sire, which I'm not too clear what the rules are yet.

I feel strongly that one of the breed associations' duties is not only
to educate the breeders, and the potential buying customers, but also to
help market and sell. It is particularly tough to run the functions
in the US because the breeders are few and far in between. Since I'm
in SW/internet technology, I've thought about working with breed
associations to utilize what Del Mar pedigree offers, so there will
be accurate records, including pictures, for all the horses of each
association, and the owners can manage their horse records easily to
offer the horse for sale by just click a checkbox and enter a price.
The database can be easily used by potential buyers to find horses
available for sale as well as to research the bloodlines. I even
talked with the nice gentleman who built Del Mar last year. He
mentioned it would not be hard. I know it won't because I know
exactly what needs to be done based on my industry experience; it can
also be so easily extended for performance records as well. However,
unfortunately, I just don't have the time to properly purpsue it.
Hopefully I'll find some time at least to prepare a proposal as I am
definitely willing to invest in it for promoting good horse breeding.
...
&gt; [A list member wrote: ]What about the PHR
&gt; (Performance Horse Registry) which is now handled by the Jockey Club and
&gt; their data base. It is for all breeds and tho I have had no experience with it,
&gt; it is supposed to keep such records as performance.

Just went to PHR website. It seems to be outdated, and there are no
service entries for owners or buyers to the database. The major
features in such a web portal should include:
1. The owners will be able to control part of the info for sales,
stud services, picture updates, etc.
2. The buyer has full query/search capability that will be the
combination of dreamhorse.com and Del Mar.
3. The registered show organizers can upload class entries, and the
results by simply matching horse IDs.
4. Of course, the registry admins will need the ability to oversee
and audit all the data, generate reports, etc.

It's really not hard to do, just some tables in the database, but it
needs a functional and friendly user interface, and strong user
authentication to guarantee the correctness of the data.

The German horse registration numbers are designed with the database
concept: each breed has its own ID, so all breeds can actually be in
one database, yet uniquely identifiable, for consolidated performance
results and cross breeding referencing. I don't know how the USAeq
Horse ID looks like, or if the database include the pedigree
information at all.

...

BTW, USDF now offers score check and competition on-line. This is
really nice though it is only a very simple database application.
For now, only those who know the USDF horse number can get the info.
A simple extension will be to allow owners to open up the information
for advertisement more readily. The sire and dam information is
probably not 100% usable for query such as "finding all offspring
from this mare," if they are not in the database based on unique ID
numbers.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Horses and software technology are my passion. (I'd rather be riding any time than sitting in front of the computer though. :-) I am very much willing to work with any organization that has the same goals to promote good horse breeding and equestrian sports.

Thanks for listening,

Violet
http://www.1derful.com

Violet
http://www.1derful.com

[1derful]

Yay to Mary Jo Barkaszi's post. Also, another big piece of pie in the sky: FRH in Germany. The top young horses are often purchased by the breed association sponsors and given to the top riders to train and compete. A few top international horses as examples: Robinson FRH, Gigolo FRH, Antony FRH, E.T. FRN, Esprit FRH.

As for auctions, PSI is actually a private auction, and the way they market and achieve top prices from all over the world is something to analyze and study, and perhaps something some investors and the top US talents may want to leverage.

Violet
http://www.1derful.com

[ise@ssl]

I want to Thank (Capital T) Mary Giddons for taking the time to write the letter that appears in the Eventing issue of the COTH. For once I had time to actually read the magazine within a few days of receiving it - I'm usually weeks behind because of farm constraints.

Her points echoed many of the posts on this BB and clearly evidenced the fact that the Sporthorse Breeding Community may be farther ahead in their work than the USAEQ Breeding Committee.

We all need to put pen to paper to the USAEQ/USEF if we are members or not. As the NGB - this new organization (the USEF) represents all of our disciplines and horseowners. To say that those who do not join have no right to speak should never be an issue. Finding out WHY people don't choose to join should be a mission of the NGB. Perhaps at the top of their list.

We've never heard Mr. Emerson's feedback from the "top riders". But what we all know is the reality of trying to market our youngsters to them is not a situation that often occurs in our country. As stated by 1derful above - many of the big competition barns in Europe invest in young horses to bring up for the riders in their stable. They are willing to invest the money in "planting seedlings". We don't realize that concept in North America very often - the mind frame seems to be toward buying "in" - half way up the growth chart. But it does not discourage US sporthorse breeders from aiming toward replicating the quality, bloodlines and talent of horses bred in Europe. Given the huge Amateur market here, we do have to place a higher value on the temperament of the horses we produce. Acknowledging that we have fewer trainers focused on starting young horses in a cross training program properly does indicate acceptance on our part and we work constantly to find a way to make the "Demand" for this service push the creation of a "Supply" of young horse trainers.

Thank you Mary - while we haven't always agreed on some matters in the past - I applaud your letter and what it stood for and stated.

ILona English