Approved KWPN studs with OCD

[Oakstable]

I was reading the latest KWPN-NA magazine this morning and saw that two stallions have been approved with Class C OCD.

Bacardi VDL by Corland Keur --2006
Quasimodo V.D. Molendreef by Heartbreaker pref -- 1993

The Quasimodo stallion led the 2007 Belgian jumping index. He competed at Grand Prix despite having OCD in the knee on the right hind leg. Obviously the chip in his knee didn't bother him.

The surgeon at Chino Hills Equine Hospital told me that OCD is only an issue if it is on a weight-bearing surface.

In the USA, OCD is a hugely black cloud over the sale of a horse with a chip.

Should we reconsider? Food for thought.

[Jumper Breeder]

Very interesting - thanks for posting!

[Oakstable]

One more thing. From his Belgian period, Quasimodo has offspring that are competing successfully in the Young Jumper Championships.

[why not]

OCD is becoming more and more a problem in the minds of people then it is a problem for the horse. We have a 6 year old mare that is doing wonderful in sport with two chips in the same hindleg. One in the hock and one in the knee. She has never lamed a single day due to the ocd.
Here she is last month
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVu2h_xemOE

We continue building her up for the bigger courses, at the end of the day it won´´ t be such a problem for buyers as it would be when thay are 4 years old.

Arnaud Evain, one of French leading horsemen says:


Is OCD a problem?
“It is a large opportunity for the veterinary profession to make money. OCD is a problem, but lived with OCD at a fairly high level until we discovered how to read it on the x-rays. We now know quite well how to fix it. Less than 20% of OCD cases becomes a problem, and in the majority of those situations, surgery can fix the problem.
Back in the 70s we were talking about navicular, but thanks to the farrier, thanks to our feed suppliers and our vets, we have been able to live with that. If OCD had been a key point in the selection, you would never have heard of Ramiro, never heard of Almé, nor of Jalisco or any of those good stallions.”
Are stallions in France rejected on the basis of their x-rays like they are in Holland?
“No – and the Dutch will abandon that system eventually, it is just marketing. The Dutch will privately tell you that they are missing some good stallions because of this system. In France it is included as part of the information about the stallion, that is a must, and you must give the mare owner the OCD score of the horse. We can deal with OCD like we dealt with navicular. If you have a foal from a stallion that has OCD in both stifles then you must be careful with how heavy you let that foal become, that is the risk, but the day you give up taking risks, you give up breeding. Looking for a horse with no faults, you will end up with a horse with no quality. There are no miracles in this business of breeding, be pragmatic, be passionate and keep your eyes open.”
Like Arnaud Evain

[fillylady]

very intresting topic and thanks for posting, i'm just wondering can someone inform me how these horses are classed? eg: above oakstable quotes that "two stallions have being approved with class c ocd". would class a be worse than class d for instance?

[Oakstable]

This is my understanding from reading about the European protocol for radiographs.

A is the best rating.
B is within acceptable ranges.
C is there is some question on whether the chip will impact soundness.
And it goes downhill from there.

Years ago I bought a video of a German vet explaining their protocol. It came with a translation in English. Probably have it here somewhere.

I do remember them saying that you need to have a sporthorse vet evaluate radiographs for sporthorses and racetrack vets evaluate radiographs for racehorses. The interpretations can be different.

[Mamare]

I'm a little embarrassed to ask this, but is a chip the same thing as an OCD?

[Oakstable]

"Chip" is the word used commonly for a OCD fragment.

If you have ever had a hangnail, you get the idea. Or a pebble in your shoe ...

As some of our European friends have posted, horses with chips can have successful performance careers.

[feather river]

think of it as getting a diamond with a flaw. You can't see it, but a good vet will find it. you then have to decide whether you want to own it and what the value of it is with the flaw. Now if you bred and raised it, you don't really care as long as it doesn't go lame on you. but a buyer might care and you had better disclose it if you know about it. don't plan to just sneak it by and wait until the prepurchase vet catches it--you will look like a slimey horse dealer if the vet catches it, or if the horse goes lame later and it is subsequently found by a more competent vet.

And there is enough research out today that says don't breed to a stallion with lots of joint jewelry since there are so many nice ones who don't have all that jewelry.:no:

[why not]

And there is enough research out today that says don't breed to a stallion with lots of joint jewelry since there are so many nice ones who don't have all that jewelry.:no:

Or the jewelry was taken away before he went to the photographer

[why not]

OCD/Chips is turning more and more into a legal issue, as it should be a medical issue. When even minor faults are visual, either radiographical, or clinical, the vet will advise negative as he/she will be the person that at the end of the day can be hold responsible when a client is not satisfied with the horse and goes to court to turn the deal back.

[Oakstable]

With digital radiographs, are more chips showing up since the technology can find something as small as a grain of rice?

[camohn]

With digital radiographs, are more chips showing up since the technology can find something as small as a grain of rice?

I think so, yes.
The problem is that most vets will not "pass" a horse with this either. I have one of those. The vet that did the xrays openly states without it he would be a 30K horse. He is worth LESS resale wise with it....but he is a super horse and in no way WORTHLESS. He still recommends the horse as sound for riding...but every other vet that potential buyers have look at em won't touch it. The horse rides and jumps and flexes sound. Thankfully I do have a couple inquiries on him now (xrays disclosed and all)...but it has taken a long time.....

[Oakstable]

Camohn,
This is an example of how the European system of grading radiographs make so much sense. Your horse is probably grade 2, i.e. yes, there is something there but it is highly unlikely it will ever be an issue.

I have lost sales due to what the vet said. Those two horses have had successful careers. Just thought of a third. He showed Grand Prix jumping at Spruce Meadows. The other two -- one is ridden in a fox hunt, in dressage and 3-day and the other is schooling 4th level.

One youngster who was purchased as a weanling and radiographed from nose to tail died at the age of 5 or 6 from some bizaare cancer.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The biggest problem with selling horses in this country is that many people really DO believe there is a perfect horse. They may SAY that they don't, UNTIL there is a finding of any kind at all.

Vets are perfectly happy "failing" horse after horse for their client, keeping them worried about anything at all. Vets avoid being sued down the line, and make money while they are at it.

The client keeps doing the marathon of looking at horses, flying around the country, and gets frustrated, as there is "nothing here". Flies off to Europe, and purchases a less suitable horse, that would have failed the vetting here worse than the first horse they wanted in the US - but the European vets don't get them worried about a minor finding.

It is sad really, as one of those first horses may have been their "heart" horse, and just look at the huge amount of money and time wasted.

The "not perfect horse" in the US means maybe a crooked blaze, socks that don't match, maybe not a full tail. I had one youngster turned down because they thought one of his eyes may have been slightly higher.

Buyers really think they can find the perfect horse that is vet report perfect, AND the perfect riding horse. Sometimes even a statement of "a bit long in the back" will send someone running for the hills, in spite of the fact that most upper level jumpers and dressage horses are. The horse may not have even been long in the back, but just the thought, and they are :eek:

I really hate to show a horse to someone that buys a horse once every 10-15-20 years. They just have not been thru the nightmare enough times or regularly to KNOW there are no perfect horses. They are also TERRIFIED of making a mistake.

Bring me a buyer that buys regularly, or they have a trainer with them that is involved with 10 + purchases per year, and they know what is important, and what is not. They have SEEN horses with some jewelry stay sound competing into their mid-twenties, and clean/CLEAN horses permanently lame as 6 year olds because something unforeseen developed.

Those experienced buyers and trainers also usually have developed relationships with vets that do MANY pre-purchases, and have the guts to not over-react to a finding.

[camohn]

Camohn,
This is an example of how the European system of grading radiographs make so much sense. Your horse is probably grade 2, i.e. yes, there is something there but it is highly unlikely it will ever be an issue.
.
The purchaser vets have all said "it may or may not" ever become an issue...but since he is not clean now they can't assure their client it is a good risk. In years terms....one vet said he has the hocks of an 8 year old horse. (He is 5). So.....not perfect but not looking like he is 18 either. Oh well. Not much I can do about it. He has a ridge spur on the lateral joint.....so it's not like he has a chip than can just be scoped out. And I am not really into doing surgery on something that is giving him no problem.


As Fairview said: folks are looking for the perfect vetting and have vets not willing to pass anything less. And as kinda noted: it seems the smaller the budget of the buyer the LESS they are willing to overlook!! The person with the 5K budget seems to be the least tolerant (and along with that the least knowledgeable/most heavily reliant on the vets "perfect" PPE). And I am getting the lower end buyer a lot looking at him because due to his xrays I already DID drop his price. I am thinking I am better off raising his price in the spring and just stating it is negotiable to hit a different market of buyers that might be more knowlegeable.

[password]

Very good posts Fairview and Providence.

[TheTetrarch]

Personally, I will avoid breeders who think OCD isn't a big deal.

Yes, KWPN approved these 2 stallions, but for the most part they have not approved or pull the approval of stallions who themselves have it or produce foals with OCD.

Why on earth would anyone want to buy a horse that may need surgery before it can have a career? If that isn't lowering of standards I don't know what is.

The problem is that so little is known about OCD, and there certainly isn't a way to predict whether or not it will cause lameness, it seems best to avoid it in breeding. However, I wouldn't x-ray a foal -- there are so many changes occurring in the growth plates in the first year that could affect an x-ray, I don't think it's very useful.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't think anyone is saying not to be concerned about breeding horses with OCD, but you are right, that really we don't knpw much about it. If the 2 stallions in this thread are siring more than a low percentage of horses with OCD, I bet their approval will be removed. BUT, they may have chips due to environmental factors that will never be inherited. Some of the really great stallions in the past have had a major problem with something.

Some OCD seems to be genetic, but that can be due to large or fast growing/maturing genes. That seems to be a direction that the registries are still going, and I don't see buyers saying, "my that is a really big foal/yearling - I'll pass".

We do know that environment plays a large part in OCD. Bone chips are often from concussion (galloping over frozen ground, rocks), etc. That is why it is highly recommended that youngsters live out 24/7. They go into a kind of tranquilized state, and don't do a lot of running and yee-haaing like their stall kept counterparts. BUT, then we hear that buyers in THIS country WANT the youngsters stall kept. so they get used to the life they will live. Those same buyers though, are happy to buy from Europe, youngsters that live out with little handling until they are 3. Double standard?

[camohn]

Personally, I will avoid breeders who think OCD isn't a big deal.

Yes, KWPN approved these 2 stallions, but for the most part they have not approved or pull the approval of stallions who themselves have it or produce foals with OCD.

Why on earth would anyone want to buy a horse that may need surgery before it can have a career? If that isn't lowering of standards I don't know what is.

The problem is that so little is known about OCD, and there certainly isn't a way to predict whether or not it will cause lameness, it seems best to avoid it in breeding. However, I wouldn't x-ray a foal -- there are so many changes occurring in the growth plates in the first year that could affect an x-ray, I don't think it's very useful.

As far as purposely breeding horses with OCD....I doubt that many breeders really are. If we are talking about horses that are proven performers that stayed riding sound then that is one thing. Re stallions: If we are talking young horses that have issues and are not proven under saddle or ones that didn't stay sound that is a whole different issue. But in spite of good intentions.....non clean xray still happen....and it is not necessarily a performance death knell with a "C" either.