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SCHunter
Oct. 27, 2003, 06:13 PM
I know that there are those bits out there that alot of people seem to use on thier strong/heavy warmbloods ( pellum, etc.) which ones have you found to work the best and be most effective?

"WHats the point in wearing your favorite space ship underwear if no body gets to see them?" - calvin and hobbes

SCHunter
Oct. 27, 2003, 06:13 PM
I know that there are those bits out there that alot of people seem to use on thier strong/heavy warmbloods ( pellum, etc.) which ones have you found to work the best and be most effective?

"WHats the point in wearing your favorite space ship underwear if no body gets to see them?" - calvin and hobbes

the eleven
Oct. 27, 2003, 06:17 PM
Though my horse is generally a pretty simple ride, he can get strong when he wants to, and tends to be heavier in the bridle. He goes in a medium shanked rubber mullenmouth pelham.

Sometimes we live no particular way but our own -Grateful Dead

Charlotte
Oct. 27, 2003, 08:13 PM
Although it's not the "nicest" bit, when my horse is having "one of those days," we use a hanovarian pelham. Unless you have really soft hands though, don't use it-- it's a broken pelham with a port and copper rollers.

Charlotte

sprack
Oct. 27, 2003, 08:36 PM
what about a segunda? they can be very harsh but sometimes work well if you are careful.
you can also get them in a dee so they look nicer than a pelham

Silly Mommy
Oct. 27, 2003, 09:01 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sometimes the bit isn't the answer...

I do have one that I show in a slow twist, but his child uses a short-shanked rubber pelham for the big eqs.

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

A/O Jumper
Oct. 27, 2003, 09:03 PM
I use a three ring elevator snaffle bit with the reins on the bottom ring on both my big warmblood and my little thoroughbred...My warmblood is not really strong, but can be some days...I like to have some control when jumping 4'3-4'6. My thoroughbred has always been strong and we put that on him and he is as broke as could be.

Why is there so much month left at the end of the money?

Medievalist
Oct. 27, 2003, 09:04 PM
Make sure you need it first. If the horse goes for someone else fine in a snaffle, then a bigger bit is not the answer.

My horse goes in a jimmy williams elevator, but you gotta have good hands. It would be easy to really hurt a horse with it or pull a horse over.

My horse pulls like a train. The bnt I take lessons from was like "Why are you suffering like this" and slapped this thing on him. I was like "whoa I can slow down! and stop!" Miracle bit for my horse, although he still gets strong in it sometimes, he can't pull my arms off anymore. He is a freak http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

2487lyf
Oct. 27, 2003, 09:22 PM
Happy Mouth 3 Ring Elevator (and if you are going to do the Hunters, Myler has a twisted bit with a center copper roller that works well.

Make sure you do a lot of flat work that makes his sit up and not get heavy in the front. Lateral work and trasitions are great!

~*~Nattie~*~ (http://community.webshots.com/user/nattie2006)
*Maryland Clique*
*Non-GPA owners Clique!*
*Warmblood (Hanoverian) Clique*

OverOxer
Oct. 27, 2003, 11:48 PM
I have an Irish Warmblood who, although educated to the death on the flat by some of the top dressage and showjumping riders in the country, has a mouth like a train. Honestly, if I put a meat cleaver in his mouth, he still might not stop. I use a Nathe Tandem bit to jump him - sort of like an American gag with a noesband attached (PT me if you want a pic). The mouth is totally rubber, but when you pull, it puts some pressure on the nose and asks him to give. Works a charm.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Medievalist
Oct. 28, 2003, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OverOxer:
I have an Irish Warmblood who, although educated to the death on the flat by some of the top dressage and showjumping riders in the country, has a mouth like a train. Honestly, if I put a meat cleaver in his mouth, he still might not stop.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank god I'm not alone. It must be an Irish horse thing...

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

eclipse
Oct. 28, 2003, 03:44 PM
Used to use a pelham, but I was finding that Ellie was getting overbent in it. We now go in a full cheek slow twist, & she's very light & responsive. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Chaos, panic and disorder ... my work here is done"

Zoef
Oct. 28, 2003, 04:18 PM
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Calla
Oct. 28, 2003, 04:37 PM
Usually heavy horses have heavy handed riders. But, if you can't make both of you softer...

I'm not sure about jumpers, but heavier hunters go great in a Myler bracelet. You don't have to worry about really hurting your horse because it is not a harsh bit but it does help with responsefulness. They also have a D ring so it won't be conspicuous in the hunter ring.

SCHunter
Oct. 28, 2003, 06:33 PM
overoxer..check your pt's.

"WHats the point in wearing your favorite space ship underwear if no body gets to see them?" - calvin and hobbes

J4J
Oct. 28, 2003, 09:14 PM
did you here about the Mikmar bit? there is a thread in here on that, and you can go to the website www.mikmarbit.com (http://www.mikmarbit.com)

i used a straight mouth tom thumb pellum bit, start on the lower ring, move up. it cured mine!

Sparky22
Oct. 28, 2003, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:


Thank god I'm not alone. It must be an Irish horse thing...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriosuly must be an Irish horse thing! I rode one that was a doll but if he wanted to get heavy he would.. and boy could he get heavy!

Another mare is either super ajusto-horse or irish freight train from hell. Even international caliber riders have been challenged by her on a bad day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

OverOxer
Oct. 28, 2003, 09:58 PM
SCHunter: Check your PTs.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sparky22 and Medievalist: Yes, Irish horses seem to have this unique ability to putter around sweetly and make you think, 'Oh, what a wonderhorse' before suddenly and forcefully dislocating your arms.:P

Madeline
Oct. 29, 2003, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I don't think that either the bit or the leverage is the answer to this problem.

madeline

Ponyryder
Oct. 29, 2003, 10:41 AM
Not only an Irish thing. I have a Hannoverian that I had trouble with until using a Myler combination bit. Still strong, but manageable.

Medievalist
Oct. 29, 2003, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I don't think that either the bit or the leverage is the answer to this problem.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assure you madeline, that zoef's trainer knows what he is doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Madeline
Oct. 29, 2003, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I don't think that either the bit or the leverage is the answer to this problem.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assure you madeline, that zoef's trainer knows what he is doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got to be kidding....Don't know zoef, don't know the trainer. But if I was a trainer with a rider getting "dragged around the ring" in a double twisted wire gag, I would look to training issues rather than more hardware. And if I couldn't come up with a training plan to improve the situation, I would look for a real, competent trainer who would. Sorry.

madeline

Zoef
Oct. 29, 2003, 04:42 PM
Really I appreciate the advice, but I don't think I need it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Madeline
Oct. 29, 2003, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Really I appreciate the advice, but I don't think I need it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey. I'm not the one who posted in a public forum that I was being dragged around the ring in a double twisted wire gag.

I figure that it must be a serious problem to confess that to hundreds of folk.

madeline

Canter
Oct. 29, 2003, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jump for Joy!:
did you here about the Mikmar bit? there is a thread in here on that, and you can go to the website http://www.mikmarbit.com
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ride my very strong, very enthusiastic WB in a polo pelham with a port if he's baaad and when he's good in a medium shank Mikmar.

BTW - the Mikmar bit itself isn't harsh or for "strong" horses, but the rope noseband and gag combine to improve the Whoa! effects. But on strong days, my horse will run right past even the long shank Mikmar.

Great bit tho.

Medievalist
Oct. 29, 2003, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
You've got to be kidding....Don't know zoef, don't know the trainer. But if I was a trainer with a rider getting "dragged around the ring" in a double twisted wire gag, I would look to training issues rather than more hardware. And if I couldn't come up with a training plan to improve the situation, I would look for a real, competent trainer who would. Sorry.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never kid. I may jest occassionally, but this isn't one of those times http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I don't think that either the bit or the leverage is the answer to this problem.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assure you madeline, that zoef's trainer knows what he is doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got to be kidding....Don't know zoef, don't know the trainer. But if I was a trainer with a rider getting "dragged around the ring" in a double twisted wire gag, I would look to training issues rather than more hardware. And if I couldn't come up with a training plan to improve the situation, I would look for a real, competent trainer who would. Sorry.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif BRAVO MADELINE! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

When, oh WHEN will people understand that hardware is no substitute for training?!?!?!? If this rider is getting dragged around with that much metal in her horse's mouth, there's one of three scenarios going on here (and possibly a combination of any of the three).

1) That zoef's horse is not properly educated for her level of riding and some remedial training is in order.

2) That zoef is not properly educated for the level of her horse, and some remedial lessons are in order.

3) Zoef's horse is too much horse for her, and should be replaced with something more appropriate to her talents and requirements.

I completely agree with madeline, if the trainer is allowing this situation to continue and is unable to correct any or all of the preceeding, then it's time to find a new trainer, or a new horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

RumoursFollow
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:49 AM
Oh I absolutely agree. Zoefs trainer is worthless.

Zoef- I think that you should leave and find a trainer more suitable of coaching a jumper rider. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Ineptly
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:58 AM
Has anyone ever noticed that "pretentious" and "contentious" have only the first three letters that differ? Coincidence? I think not http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Bumpkin
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:59 AM
Perhaps Zoef's definition of being dragged around the course is very different as someone elses, and the horse is not as naughty as it sounds on this BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JMHO of course.

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

Nickelodian
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calla:
Usually heavy horses have heavy handed riders. But, if you can't make both of you softer...

I'm not sure about jumpers, but heavier hunters go great in a Myler bracelet. You don't have to worry about really hurting your horse because it is not a harsh bit but it does help with responsefulness. They also have a D ring so it won't be conspicuous in the hunter ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there a picture of this bit online anywhere? My horse is in a waterford right now, but sometimes I just have NO brakes. Doesn't help that he's very big and I'm very little.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I survived!

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RumoursFollow:
Oh I absolutely agree. Zoefs trainer is worthless.

Zoef- I think that you should leave and find a trainer more suitable of coaching a jumper rider. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now just how, pray, did you extract that opinion from the post above? I'm curious.................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

b328
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:15 AM
In your post above, you said the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I completely agree with madeline, if the trainer is allowing this situation to continue and is unable to correct any or all of the preceeding, then it's time to find a new trainer, or a new horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see why someone would think you were saying the trainer didn't know what he/she was doing.

RumoursFollow
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:20 AM
Lighten up, ESG. Its a joke. There used to be lots of those on this board.

starboard
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:22 AM
Must throw in a chuckle here.
Unfortunately some folks do not realize who Zoef trains with, and well....its kind of funny seeing all of these posts!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by b328:
In your post above, you said the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I completely agree with madeline, if the trainer is allowing this situation to continue and is unable to correct any or all of the preceeding, then it's time to find a new trainer, or a new horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see why someone would think you were saying the trainer didn't know what he/she was doing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't read the whole post, then, or misinterpreted the last sentence. I said "if the trainer is unable to correct these problems", not that she should run right out and find a new trainer. I think we all agree that a rider getting her arms pulled out and being dragged around by a horse wearing a double-twisted (UGH!) wire isn't a good scenario, and I don't think you have to be a trainer to see that. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

That make things clearer? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

starboard
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:24 AM
Hush up now Rumours!
There will be no fun on this board!!!

Zoef
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:26 AM
Yes I am glad to help provide amusement. I think Zoef would get quite a chuckle knowing that he was in need of remedial lessons http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starboard:
Must throw in a chuckle here.
Unfortunately some folks do not realize who Zoef trains with, and well....its kind of funny seeing all of these posts!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I mentioned earlier, I don't know who zoef trains with, but whoever it is, if Zoef and her horse are performing as they are, either this trainer is not doing his/her job, Zoef isn't listening, or the trainer is all "Big Name" and no "Trainer."

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

madeline

Bumpkin
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starboard:
Must throw in a chuckle here.
Unfortunately some folks do not realize who Zoef trains with, and well....its kind of funny seeing all of these posts!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

Nickelodian
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:29 AM
Alright so inquiring minds MUST know.....WHO does Zoef ride with???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I survived!

OneonOne
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:31 AM
Nickelodian - shhhhh! You'll spoil all the fun!

Check your PTs.

__________________________________
Formerly mmclough

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:33 AM
Zoef, Rumours, someone in the know !! you MUST PT me with the trainer, I am dying of curiosity!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:33 AM
Must be God (or GM) from the sound of things.

Doesn't change my mind. He of all people should be able to see this and correct it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

starboard
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:34 AM
Lets put it this way.
If this person cant manage to back the horse off, nobody out there can.
Sorry, but all that natural horsemanship stuff will only go so far--some horses pull like a freight train. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:36 AM
I agree - some horses pull like tanks. But then comes the question of suitability of horse to rider and vice versa. One would think that if a BNT (whoever it may be) should be able to fix that by either educating horse, or rider, or finding other options for both. That's what I said in the beginning and that's what I stand by. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

b328
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:37 AM
CGR, check your PTs.

good booie
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:38 AM
I know but won't tell. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Not my beeswax, but this thread is getting humerous.

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

horselesswonder
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:47 AM
Despite what one poster said, I have to chime in and say that some heavy horses are not that way because of heavy-handed riding. I had one that had a mouth of iron from the time someone first sat on his back. He just wasn't a sensitive guy. Not every horse has a snaffle mouth - especially some of the warmbloods in my experience.

Amazing how many experts we have posting on this board.

caffeinated
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
One would think that if a BNT (whoever it may be) should be able to fix that by either educating horse, or rider, or finding other options for both. That's what I said in the beginning and that's what I stand by. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't that what this BNT is doing with the bit choices/experimentation? Sounds to me like he's finding a solution that works for everybody.

But then again I'm a total shamateur and know nothing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Charlotte
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:58 AM
I want to know who Zoef's trainer is too! Somebody PT me!

Charlotte

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by caffeinated:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
One would think that if a BNT (whoever it may be) should be able to fix that by either educating horse, or rider, or finding other options for both. That's what I said in the beginning and that's what I stand by. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't that what this BNT is doing with the bit choices/experimentation? Sounds to me like he's finding a solution that works for everybody.

But then again I'm a total shamateur and know nothing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_____________________________
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, zoef didn't say what her trainer's plans were, only that she was getting pulled around by a horse with a double twisted wire bit in its mouth. So I'm as much in the dark about that as you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

AWIP
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:08 AM
I've got my own freight train and am finding this really entertaining. I firmly believe that those who think every horse can go in a smooth snaffle are either:
a) very very lucky in their riding experiences
b) on steroids

Please PT me and let me know who the trainer is? This is great!

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:13 AM
I agree with you about all horses not being able to go in a smooth snaffle, but I think we can all agree that there are a lot of options between that and a double twisted wire. Personally, I wouldn't head my 17.2h ISH jumper to a fence in a smooth snaffle, despite the fact that he has the softest mouth of any horse I've ever ridden. He actually goes in a straight bar rubber Pelham, and is awesome in it. But I still say that if a rider is already in a double twisted wire and still getting yanked around, there are more issues here than just the bit.

starboard
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
that he has the softest mouth of any horse I've ever ridden. He actually goes in a straight bar rubber Pelham, and is awesome in it. But I still say that if a rider is already in a double twisted wire and _still _ getting yanked around, there are more issues here than just the bit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you are all-knowing, however perhaps you havent ever come across a horse with an iron mouth.
Just because you havent experienced it, sure as hell doesnt mean all horses should fit into your mold.
Additionally, I can pretty much guarentee that Zoefs horses recieve the Epitome of good training, care and attention, not to mention schooling. If she took shortcuts with bitting to get to a ring, it sure doesnt show in the blues she brings home!!!

AWIP
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:52 AM
I'm re-schooling mine in a double twisted wire right now. It seems to work out a good understanding; I ask gently, she responds immediately because the 2nd request isn't going to be nice. She does her job, I do mine. Yet, she will still take solid contact on the way to a fence and pull. Not crazy pulling but a solid, "if it was worth it , I'd be going hell-bent" hold. Frankly, some of horses are just GD opinionated once the jumping adrenaline hits them. It sometime goes with really bold horses and you can't cure it without ruining the boldness. So you live with it, because you love that boldness, bravery & aggresiveness, and use a what it takes to remind them you are up there and that you might have something useful to convey ... like which fence to jump next, and from a safe pace.

Jasmine
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:01 AM
We have one gelding with an iron mouth. I'm still looking for a bit that will get his attention. He's in a copper, slow twisted, Dr. Bristol right now, and I do get dragged a bit from time to time. Other than the muscles he's builing in my shoulders, he's a wonderfull boy. We have another gelding that goes in a rubber snaffle. Sometimes I think that is too much for him, he's so sensitive. Good luck finding a bit that works in every situation!

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:09 AM
esg, i dare say zoef's hands are a tad more educated than yours. i'm sure the double-twisted wire is not a problem in hers.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:17 AM
Another riotous reminder about the internet and never knowing who may be reading or who is being discussed.

Now where's buryinghill with her fun anecdotes of hardware experimentation/top jaw ropes used to great effect? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Weatherford
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:42 AM
And you must remember that if Zoef's horse is not being backed off by the size of the fences she is jumping (!!), then, she definitely needs the hardware!!

Also, some horse just COME with iron mouths - some horses can be schooled in their snaffle, but still need to be shown in something tougher - and sometimes a LOT tougher!

My big horse hauled Ann (my trainer) around so badly, it scared her and she gave the ride over to her brother - who made him look like a children's hunter! I got back on him, and, while we got around, he definitely, uh, shall we say, took SERIOUS hold. Since he is only six, (and I sure as he&& don't ride as well as Peter!!!), MY answer is lots of gymnastics - adn he is getting better.

Zoef's horse is older, experienced, and she is an excellent rider with a top trainer!

I remind you, a "tough" bit with good hands is better than a "soft" bit in hard hands!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starboard:

Obviously you are all-knowing, however perhaps you havent ever come across a horse with an iron mouth.

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm far from all knowing. And yes, I've come across iron mouthed horses in lots of disciplines; had to train a few. I never said the trainer was incompetent, or zoeph for that matter. She was the one complaining about being dragged around by a horse wearing a double twisted wire. Obviously she's not all knowing, either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just because you havent experienced it, sure as hell doesnt mean all horses should fit into your mold.

What mold is that, pray? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Additionally, I can pretty much guarentee that Zoefs horses recieve the Epitome of good training, care and attention, not to mention schooling. If she took shortcuts with bitting to get to a ring, it sure doesnt show in the blues she brings home!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you're responding to my post? No one said anything about quality of care, attention or anything else I responded to what zoeph said was a problem, nothing more. Calm down, will you? Geez! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phone sneakers:
esg, i dare say zoef's hands are a _tad_ more educated than yours. i'm sure the double-twisted wire is not a problem in hers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, obviously I don't know zoeph, other than what I've read about her problems with the double twisted wire. Since her horse still is dragging her around with it, I think something else needs to be done. Obviously, so does she, since she's the one who posted the problem in the first place.

And since you don't have a clue as to who I might be or what I might know, forgive me for taking your opinion with a grain of salt. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_work_in_progress:
I'm re-schooling mine in a double twisted wire right now. It seems to work out a good understanding; I ask gently, she responds immediately because the 2nd request isn't going to be nice. She does her job, I do mine. Yet, she will still take solid contact on the way to a fence and pull. Not crazy pulling but a solid, "if it was worth it , I'd be going hell-bent" hold. Frankly, some of horses are just GD opinionated once the jumping adrenaline hits them. It sometime goes with really bold horses and you can't cure it without ruining the boldness. So you live with it, because you love that boldness, bravery & aggresiveness, and use a what it takes to remind them you are up there and that you might have something useful to convey ... like which fence to jump next, and from a safe pace.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand and agree. You have to take the good with the bad. And I love the fact that you specify that you're "retraining" your horse with the double twisted wire. I'm not saying the bit doesn't have its place, and it's clear that you're using it to try to fix what someone else has already failed to address. Also, a question for you; do you think, after a while with the DTW, that you'll be able to back off to something a little less authority, or do you feel your horse will always need it? I'm interested.................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:10 AM
LOL at the people who just don't know when to shut up.

ESG, I know who Zoef's trainer is.

Frankly, Zoef's trainer has more knowledge in his/her little finger than most people will ever have.

You might want to lay off.

RugBug
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:13 AM
So I finally took a look at this thread because I was surprised to still see it alive. I should've known http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh, and I know who Zoef's trainer is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...and I think they are more than capable of dealing with the training issues of her horse.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
And since you don't have a clue as to who I might be or what I might know, forgive me for taking your opinion with a grain of salt. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well then, who are you? what do you know?

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
And you must remember that if Zoef's horse is not being backed off by the size of the fences she is jumping (!!), then, she definitely needs the hardware!!

Also, some horse just COME with iron mouths - some horses can be schooled in their snaffle, but still need to be shown in something tougher - and sometimes a LOT tougher!

I agree. But may I remind you that it's zoeph who's telling us that her horse is still pulling her around with a double twisted wire. If the horse needs more, why post here about a "problem"? Why not just put more on him? And no, not all horses can be jumped in a snaffle; that was never the issue. I don't know how the smooth snaffle thing came up, but it wasn't from me. I've trained Paso Finos with their traditional bits....... can you say "three inch port"? You want to talk about stiff, take a look at those puppies! Just like a_work_in_progress said, it's a bit that demands instant attention and respect, because the second request won't be nice. So no one is making that assumption. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My big horse hauled Ann (my trainer) around so badly, it scared her and she gave the ride over to her brother - who made him look like a children's hunter! I got back on him, and, while we got around, he definitely, uh, shall we say, took SERIOUS hold. Since he is only six, (and I sure as he&& don't ride as well as Peter!!!), MY answer is lots of gymnastics - adn he is getting better.

Was that your big bay horse you posted the photo of at Kerrygold? Cool pony. And I can see that he'd be a handful if he decided to get strong. My ISH gelding is nearly as big as yours, but since he has a super-soft mouth, he's a lot easier for poor old me. And the fact that you're improving your guy with gymnastics only proves my point - that it isn't necessarily a stronger bit that's the answer to backing a horse off. Thank you!

Zoef's horse is older, experienced, and she is an excellent rider with a top trainer!

I'm sure. And if they're happy with the way the horse is going, fine. But if that's the case, why is zoeph posting on this board that she's getting hauled around? Just seems odd to me.......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I remind you, a "tough" bit with good hands is better than a "soft" bit in hard hands!!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Absolutely. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

_ It's OUT! _ Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping _ co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif _ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phone sneakers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
And since you don't have a clue as to who I might be or what I might know, forgive me for taking your opinion with a grain of salt. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well then, who are you? what do you know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't really care about the former and you don't have enough time for me to explain the latter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fleur
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:23 AM
i absolutely care about the former, as it is really interesting and helpful when big-name-trainers post on here and i love to know where my information is coming from http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:23 AM
ok, so then i can safely surmise that you are a nobody who knows nothing.


WAIT! i know exactly who you are. you are a cored-peach loving freak.

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:26 AM
Zoef's words:
"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif "

Note the smiley... ESG you are missing the point that Zoef and her horse are a very very successful pair. If the backyard pony club rider next door needed a double twisted copper gag, then we would all understand your complaint. However, that is not the case here, so I repeat: you might want to lay off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And phone sneakers, you disappoint me. I'm a cored-peach loving freak, but I don't want to be associated with ESG.

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Zoef's words:
"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif "

Note the smiley... ESG you are missing the point that Zoef and her horse are a very very successful pair. If the backyard pony club rider next door needed a double twisted copper gag, then we would all understand your complaint. However, that is not the case here, so I repeat: you might want to lay off. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And phone sneakers, you disappoint me. I'm a cored-peach loving freak, but I don't want to be associated with ESG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[i]Thanks. I did miss that. How did we get to this point, anyway? I thought it was the original poster who was having trouble? Boy, talk about sidetracked......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

And what's a cored peach loving freak? And why don't I want to be one? Do I even have the equipment to be? A puzzlement............... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:28 AM
Trust me, you don't want to know.

On second thought, I'll explain the peach comment if you explain who you are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thought so.

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:29 AM
ah, curious george, i'm pretty sure you're not THE cored-peach loving freak of the COTH boards. after all, it's clear that you actually do know what you're talking about.

AWIP
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:30 AM
Well ... since you're interested http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Will I be able to back down in bit? I believe I will, but I do not believe she will be a simple smooth snaffle horse. I've been re-schooling in this copper double twisted wire for 6 weeks, I've already ordered a copper corkscrew Dr. Bristol for slightly less edge, no points to poke the roof of her mouth since she has a low palate but still has authority. If I can scale to something less I will. I'm willing to experiment to see what works best for the two of us.

She has always been allowed to bid at her fences "She's just enthusiastic/bold/excited/whatever" and I can tell you that a charge at a solid fence, going downhill, dragging down onto the forehand is not safe/fun/acceptable.

This is not a horse who will ever poke around a course and there will probably always be a build to the fence. I can live with that, so I will attempt to downgrade as much as possible to minimize the consequences with I screw up but still have enough input to keep us both safe. I love her bravery, honesty and ability to jump froma "hail mary" long spot and make it look easy, but as the fences get bigger she won't be able to athleticize her way out of trouble. I wouldn't want to break her heart & confidencebecause I couldn't do my job.

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
And what's a cored peach loving freak?_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

good booie
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:34 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I alway's ended up with broken peaches?? Cantelope maybe?

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Silk
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:36 AM
Gawd! Even *I* know who her trainer is...and if I had commented on this traienr's knowledge (or lack of) i'd be absolutely MORTIFIED and pretty darn embarrassed. Can't we let the cat out of the bag yet??? Although, it would not be as much fun without being able to see ESG's facial expressions!

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_work_in_progress:
Well ... since you're interested http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Will I be able to back down in bit? I believe I will, but I do not believe she will be a simple smooth snaffle horse. I've been re-schooling in this copper double twisted wire for 6 weeks, I've already ordered a copper corkscrew Dr. Bristol for slightly less edge, no points to poke the roof of her mouth since she has a low palate but still has authority. If I can scale to something less I will. I'm willing to experiment to see what works best for the two of us.

She has always been allowed to bid at her fences "She's just enthusiastic/bold/excited/whatever" and I can tell you that a charge at a solid fence, going downhill, dragging down onto the forehand is not safe/fun/acceptable.

This is not a horse who will ever poke around a course and there will probably always be a build to the fence. I can live with that, so I will attempt to downgrade as much as possible to minimize the consequences with I screw up but still have enough input to keep us both safe. I love her bravery, honesty and ability to jump froma "hail mary" long spot and make it look easy, but as the fences get bigger she won't be able to athleticize her way out of trouble. I wouldn't want to break her heart & confidencebecause I couldn't do my job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a really cool mare. And no, it doesn't sound like she'd ever be safely jumpable in a smooth snaffle, but then again no one said she had to be. Your description of her reminds me of my eventer that I gave away a few years ago. He was just like that; bold, brave, would jump anything from anywhere, but always, always, always would get three strides out in stadium and throw his head up, drop his back and make a bid for the fence. I didn't mind so much XC because he was so careful (as well as brave), but we ended up with pulled rails in stadium because he just wouldn't listen. The answer would have been flatwork with him, and lots of retraining, since a stronger bit just didn't work with him since it only made him throw his head that much more. I say "would have been" because he pulled the snot out of a hind suspensory and I had to retire him; never workably sound after that. He's living the life of Riley up on a 150 acre farm with a bunch of broodmares for company who think he's Elvis reincarnated in equine form, so I'm happy for him. But I would have loved to see what changes I could have made in him. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Good luck with your girl. Sounds like you're on the way to a super partnership. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PeriwinkleBlue
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I always ended up with broken peaches?? Cantelope maybe? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif You lucky thing you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

*****************

Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
Gawd! Even *I* know who her trainer is...and if I had commented on this traienr's knowledge (or lack of) i'd be absolutely MORTIFIED and pretty darn embarrassed. Can't we let the cat out of the bag yet??? Although, it would not be as much fun without being able to see ESG's facial expressions!


I'd oblige you if I could. Does this help? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif That's the best I can do. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

caffeinated
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by good booie:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I alway's ended up with broken peaches?? Cantelope maybe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watermelon. Somewhat more squishy.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

AWIP
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:00 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks ESG, that 3 stride bid sounds familiar, she can go from 12' to 18'+ in a step and is only 15.3h!

She is cool, and great for my confidence after years on a stopper. I've spent 2 years on her flat work and trying to get jumping in a smooth snaffle to work. 1st year, smooth snaffle for everything ... didn't work, 2nd year mullen happy mouth elevator, ok but not great, this summer strong enough to run straight through it. We're starting into 2nd level dressage, she only starts putting effort in over a 3'6" fence and pulls her knees up to her noseband over a decent size fence but when she tries to take over ... :eyeroll:

DoubleTwistedWire
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:04 PM
Heck, I didn't know I could stir up so much controversey http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ESG, you've stated that you know not every horse has a snaffle mouth. In saying that, a logical person who knows something about training/riding (maybe Zoef and their trainer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) realize that riding a strong horse in a "harsher" bit, when the rider knows what they're doing, is actually a much better choice. You can do far more damage to a mouth by constantly yanking on a smooth snaffle than an educated rider using a dtw ever would.

I'd also wager to guess that the words "getting dragged around a course" mean something entirely different to someone who does, say, low hunters, versus open jumper classes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

spryngtree
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:06 PM
I don't know the BNT in question, but if I were him (her) I'd be mortified to read this thread. No professional I've ever known has been pleased as being represented as god, nor have any enjoyed having a student mouth off to others about how they can do no wrong since they have BNT in their pocket.

Whoever he may be, BNT may be entirely competent to deal with Zoef's problem, but she stated it on this board (with a sticky out tounge, not a smiley face which to me means "yuck"). If Zoef is very successful in the show ring despite this problem, more power to her, but since all we know is that she is a nameless person with a pulling problem with her horse, it doesn't seem like anyone's advice here was unreasonable.

Playing "well I know who she is, and you don't and isn't this funny" is really weirdly unattractive. I don't care if Zoef is actually Margie Goldstein, it sounds like if her mare is still pulling in that strong a bit, she's got a training problem. I think the difference is that if she was Margie Goldstein she might admit it.

Suppose I am a succesful something...lets say Teacher. I post on a board about teaching "hey no matter how many times I give my student time out, he just doesn't listen" and a couple of teachers respond "well you know, perhaps the number of time outs isn't the problem" and I say "well my principal says I need more time outs" than it isn't strange at all if people suggest I need a different principal! It doesn't matter if that principal is the head of the principal's union and has written 13 books on behavior management in children and I am his most succesful teacher with 72 teaching awards. Sure maybe there is more to the story than I first said, but if I didn't say it, well I didn't say it!

As an innocent bystander reading this thread out of curiousity, I'd find it much more convincing if she told us the REST of the story to explain why this is indeed a time when a stronger bit is needed and not a different training strategy. Also certainly much more INTERESTING than "hah hah, you don't know who I am" as much as that may be amusing those in the know.

Personally, if God himself (herself) had the mare in a double twistd wire gag and said she needed a stronger bit or more leverage, I would at least want to know why?

E.

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:07 PM
Clemson... check your pt's!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

AWIP
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:22 PM
I think the funniest thing is this, I can completely believe that Zoef need that bit. In fact, I originally posted to point out that it is sometimes necessary. I have said I plan to downgrade my own horses bit, but if I have to go back up to the DTW so be it at least I tried. And ESG seems to agree that it is reasonable ... because I am not being snide, I'm providing relevent history and demonstrating that there is reasoning behind my choice. She's right, harsh bits are for exceptional circumstances but if those exist then say so! Don't just snigger at the person telling them "Aren't you stupid/uninformed"

(snigger

Snicker \Snick"er\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Snickered; p. pr. & vb. n. Snickering.] [Cf. D. snikken to sob, to sigh.] [Written also snigger.] 1. To laugh slyly; to laugh in one's sleeve)

FairWeather
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spryngtree:
I don't know the BNT in question, but if I were him E.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, zoef was only commenting, dare say commiserating, not looking for help.

Pixie Dust
Oct. 30, 2003, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by good booie:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I alway's ended up with broken peaches?? Cantelope maybe?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must we brag? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

caffeinated
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
However, zoef was only commenting, dare say commiserating, not looking for help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly... I took it as a "heh, my horse is strong too, we're working on it!" much more than a "my horse is pulling my arms out and I don't know what to do waaaaaaaaaaah!" kind of thing.

I love how these things create so much contraversy. hee.

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

spryngtree
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:01 PM
posted by Fairweather:

"However, zoef was only commenting, dare say commiserating, not looking for help."

Perhaps, though if she had posted 'gee I beat my horse all the time too' I suspect not many would ignore it. At some point a statement of a problem is enough to require a response. I never said she asked for help, just that she stated what was clearly a problem. If she was just joking, and she and her trainer are working on the problem successfully why not just say that? Rather than all of this "you don't know as much as my trainer, and isn't it funny that you don't know who he is" Its just kind of distasteful.

Anyway, here is a question. All of you who HAVE put your horses in stronger bits and its not working...do you have a point at which you would conclude that no matter how strong the bit is its not going to help? I mean you could string a knife blade in there. One could argue that in the hands of a good rider a knife blade might be kinder than a smooth snaffle is in the hands of an amateur, but at what point do you stop and try something other than a strong bit? Serious question, not at all meant to be rhetorical, at what point do you back off the bit and try something else?

E.

caffeinated
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:02 PM
but I don't think zoef said the bit wasn't working. Just that she has a strong horse in a strong bit. Everybody else made the unwelcome inference that she is having endless amounts of trouble with her mount

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_work_in_progress:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks ESG, that 3 stride bid sounds familiar, she can go from 12' to 18'+ in a step and is only 15.3h!

She is cool, and great for my confidence after years on a stopper. I've spent 2 years on her flat work and trying to get jumping in a smooth snaffle to work. 1st year, smooth snaffle for everything ... didn't work, 2nd year mullen happy mouth elevator, ok but not great, this summer strong enough to run straight through it. We're starting into 2nd level dressage, she only starts putting effort in over a 3'6" fence and pulls her knees up to her noseband over a decent size fence but when she tries to take over ... :eyeroll:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh, a pocket rocket! Yep, cool things do come in small packages and it sounds like you certainly have one. I know whereof you speak with "trying things to no avail". My ISH was so behind the leg and down in front when I got him (17.2 and 6 1/2 years old and so green he didn't know how to steer!) that spurs, whips, intimidation (yeah, like that would work http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) were all tried to no avail. Stopping was never an issue; going was, though. After four years of different trainers jumping him (and totally ignoring the flatwork as this horse is talented as hell over fences) and putting all sorts of weird gadgets on him (without my knowledge until after the fact, or my consent), it took lots of insistence on correct flatwork (with occasional jumps thrown in to keep him sweet and cooperative - did I mention that he'd stop dead and stand straight up when he'd had enough....of anything?) to get him going well. I had a lovely gentleman from Ireland show him at WEF for me this year, and the horse was stunning. If I can get and keep him in shape (those GD non-TBs turn into marshmallows if you give them two weeks off and are hell to keep fit! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif), I have a GP rider in Texas who's itching to take him in the big classes for me. But you're right, it takes lots of sussing out with the difficult ones. The cool thing is, they're usually worth it in the end. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:16 PM
devildog - check yours http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

good booie
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:21 PM
Off to TTR. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zoef
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:21 PM
[/QUOTE]

However, zoef was only commenting, dare say commiserating, not looking for help.[/QUOTE]

BINGO. Come on people, don't you have anything better to do than create 5 pages worth of speculation regarding my training or lack thereof. Commiseration to a friend who posts on the board. Amazing how much "telephone" goes on over here.

Janeway
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Really I appreciate the advice, but I don't think I need it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, most of this thread could have been much more helpful if those involved had actually been specific instead of hiding behind assumptions.

Now I've always like Zoef's posts and she is helpful, however i have no clue she is or who she rides with. and I doubt most of the other 8000 BB members do either.

Perhaps in the interest of the original poster who was honestly looking for help, it would have been better to indicate that you ride at a certain level already, yet your horse is still strong, and then maybe make some suggestions.

But really guys, all this "i'm so good i don't need help" and "well I know who Zoeff is even if you don't" stuff is so high school. Can't we be a little more adult and actually offer some suggestions?

Besides in the context of this thread, with no knowledge of who any of the posters are, I too thought, "man, Zoef needs to sort some problems out". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So perhaps being just a little more forthcoming about your experience in answering a question like this might be a tad more helpful!

Otherwise, really its quite arrogant and childish and poor Madeline got the brunt of it. Why should she know who Zoef is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Ahh, a pocket rocket! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

esg, this really isn't the place to talk about your dearly beloved vibrator...

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef:
Oh you are so not alone. I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just thought I'd circle back to the original post that set me off.

As I said originally, no matter who zoef is or who her BN "T" is, this appears to me to be a training problem that is being unsuccessfully addressed with escalating hardware. Else why would she post it here for everyone to read? If I were the trainer I would be ashamed.

For those of you who think you're so cool because you know the involved parties, what would you say if you didn't know that Zoef was a godlet and her trainer a major diety in jumperland?

I see a lot of exotic hardware on the good jumpers, but I'm also led to believe that they do most of their between GP work on the flat with much less elaborate bitting.

After 5 pages of "I'm cool because I know these people, and you're stupid because you don't," I still maintain that ANYONE who says " I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)." is looking in the wrong place for a solution. And I don't care who it is. Or who is teaching her things like this. I'll probably be really disappointed if I ever find out who the BNT is, but it won't in myself.

madeline

Leena
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:04 PM
My experience tells me that a stronger bit create a stronger mouth. I met a lot of people stock with unrideable horse, cause of no mouth anymore.
I suggest you to ask your trainer,or maybe take a second advice and work on some exercice to have your horse more with you than against you.

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phone sneakers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Ahh, a pocket rocket! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

esg, this really isn't the place to talk about your dearly beloved vibrator...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was uncalled for. Go away, troll.

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:15 PM
i would go away, but i'm still waiting to be told who you are and what you know. see, i do have the time; you shouldn't be so quick to speak of things you know nothing about.

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phone sneakers:
_i would go away, but i'm still waiting to know who you are and what you know. see, i do have the time; you shouldn't be so quick to speak of things you know nothing of._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't feed trolls. And I'm nobody who knows nothing, as you said before. So if you plan on waiting any longer, best pack a lunch. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Eddina Monsoon
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:17 PM
Chris Kappler.

phone sneakers
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:19 PM
honey, you've been feeding trolls your entire life. are you just now realizing this?

bigbay
Oct. 30, 2003, 02:29 PM
Bummer. After seeing God brought up, CK seems kind of anti-climactic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bigbay:
Bummer. After seeing God brought up, CK seems kind of anti-climactic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. I'm disappointed. I thought he was better than that.

But here's the question: How much actual time has Allyson spent with CK in the last 6 months that was in a non-show situation? I'm looking for on the farm, one on one lessons of a greater duration than warming up for a class. Given that she's a full time corporate attorney and he's been all over the known world showing , how much time was there for anything bus quick and dirty shortcuts (like a dtw gag)?

madeline

Figuring that this will set off another round of "you're sooooo out of it" whining from the BNT disciples.

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:05 PM
So, anyone want some BBQ baby? How about some Baby Quiches? Can I interest you with a peep on a spork???
http://www.pythonline.com

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

bigbay
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:

Figuring that this will set off another round of "you're sooooo out of it" whining from the BNT disciples.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Figuring the same thing. Was trying to keep this thread light-hearted, but am opting out of this thread now. Have fun, everyone!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Medievalist
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:06 PM
All this from poor Zoef trying to give me some love http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Get a life people. Go ride or get a job or something. It's none of ya'll's damn businees what zoef is doing or not doing.

Now how do you all feel about saladshooters?

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

[This message was edited by Medievalist on Oct. 30, 2003 at 05:16 PM.]

Kirsten
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:15 PM
Holy crap!

Carrying trays of steaming baby quiches here... who wants spinach? Devildog? Mmmm mmmm good!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif :P

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:22 PM
I'm only sticking around because not everyone on these BB's is rich enough or experienced enough to be riding AA shows with a BNT. And I would hate for some children's jumper riding local with a lnt ( or nnt) to think that escalating hardware is the first choice way to solve every problem.

I would hate for them to go to their trainer and say " I NEED a DTW gag, cuz that's what Chris Kappler gives his students and all the cool people jumped all over the people who disagreed."

We don't all show all the time. And we don't all work with BNT's. But that doesn't mean that we don't know what we're doing. There is, in the horse business, room for people who train sensibly and with attention to bsics, who observe carefully, and who do not medicate and cheat. We should be allowed a voice as well.

And I'm still waiting for someone to reply to my question as to what you would tell an unknown stranger who said she was being dragged around the ring in a DTW gag and needed more hardware.

madeline

Medievalist
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And I'm still waiting for someone to reply to my question as to what you would tell an unknown stranger who said she was being dragged around the ring in a DTW gag and needed more hardware.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She never said she needed hardware. She never told some little munchkin to go throw that on their 10hh shetland. She was talking to me in response to a statement I had made about how my horse pulls like a train and I'm glad to hear I am not alone.

So why don't you flame me? My parents are on vacation so I haven't been yelled at in a good 3 days, so I could use it. I ride with a BNT too. My horse(formerly ridden in the big classes by an Olympic medaler...not that that has anything to do with anything) wears a modified western bit that makes the DQs at my barn cringe, but hell it works for him. Zoef has won about everything with her horse on the east coast while riding him in a dtw gag. it works for her. end of story.

Now, how do you all feel about using a George Foreman grill to cook miniquiches? Would that even work ETBW? Quiche Lorraine....mmmmmmm......

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Midge
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spryngtree:
Anyway, here is a question. All of you who HAVE put your horses in stronger bits and its not working...do you have a point at which you would conclude that no matter how strong the bit is its not going to help?

Serious question, not at all meant to be rhetorical, at what point do you back off the bit and try something else?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I've been around the block with Midge and am starting the second loop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Our first year was spent pretty much undoing seven years on the track. She had no mouth, no lateral movement, no depart in any gait and no left lead. She did however have good movement, the potential for a nice jump, and a teeny tiny price tag. That whole first year was spent in a plain snaffle and, for the most part, on the flat.

The second year coincided with a trainer change and we focused on getting to the shows. We had mixed success but felt we were basically moving forward. We began schooling in a three ring (on the middle ring) because in spite of how far we had come, I basically had no leverage over jumps. I also started showing her in a waterford. All flat work continued to be in the plain snaffle. After about ten shows, we felt a need to take a break and focus on solving some problems that cropped up. About this time, she started raising herself above the three ring, so we have dropped it from the bit arsenal. We are doing a huge amount of flatwork and a lot of gymnastics, all in the plain snaffle.

Knowing Midge, I imagine I will change bits with her all the time in an effort to surprise her with something different as well as find the right bit for the job. I will never be able to loop the rein at her on course in a plain snaffle, but I hope to find the right bit in which I can loop the rein.

Where do they sell those bicycle chain bits? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Janeway
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
Get a life people. Go ride or get a job or something. It's none of ya'll's damn businees what zoef is doing or not doing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I dare say she and her "friends" here should have kept quiet in the first place about how good she apparently is! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

As I said in my earlier post this bruhouha could have been avoided if people stopped assuming everyone here automatically knows everyone else and accept that fact that people will comment on what is posted HERE withought the benefit of some psycic/cosmic ESP where we know instantly who the poster is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

barnie
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:37 PM
Madeline- I would say the same thing that several people have already pointed out to you...that the post/poster you are discussing was not looking for advice...simply answering someone(I think she knows)with a "I've been there". I know a lot of people come to these boards looking for advice, but not everyone does. My feeling is that you jumped in pretty quickly with "OMG you poor kid, you need my sage advice...let me tell you "the" answer. I obviously don't know ANY of the people involved here...but it seems to be a trend to jump on anyone who discounts the popular/pc answer to all training questions....FLAT WORK IN A LOOSE RING SNAFFLE UNTIL....well UNTIL FOREVER. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

eclipse
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:38 PM
I have a lovely powder pink salad shooter & complementary George Foreman Grill.....makes perfect quiches (nice crispy crust too)!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Chaos, panic and disorder ... my work here is done"

Medievalist
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:42 PM
Also, can a GF grill be used to make a full brunch? Like pancakes, eggs, bacon, etc all at once? That would be great!

RugBug
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:45 PM
I just inherited a George Foreman from my grandmother. How's that for passing on the family inheritance? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
Madeline- I would say the same thing that several people have already pointed out to you...that the post/poster you are discussing was not looking for advice...simply answering someone(I think she knows)with a "I've been there". I know a lot of people come to these boards looking for advice, but not everyone does. My feeling is that you jumped in pretty quickly with "OMG you poor kid, you need my sage advice...let me tell you "the" answer. I obviously don't know ANY of the people involved here...but it seems to be a trend to jump on anyone who discounts the popular/pc answer to all training questions....FLAT WORK IN A LOOSE RING SNAFFLE UNTIL....well UNTIL FOREVER. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, onmiscient Barnie, you got it wrong. You're assuming I was giving advice. I was just observing that IMO she was going down a wrong path.

I'm well aware that the loose ring snaffle is not the answer for all, or even most. But work with a competent trainer should not lead to ever-escalating hardware either.

I hunted a horse for a few years in a big old long shanked pelham. He was 16.2 and had been around the Maryland Hunt Cup three times, I was about 80 pounds, but I could hunt him on a loose rein in the pelham. Do I advocate giving 12 year olds big leverage all the time? No. Was it appropriate in this case? Absolutely. (I showed him in a plain snaffle, cuz that's all he needed. After racing and hunting, showing, even on hilly outside courses, wasn't that exciting. I guess that dates me.)

I'm just inwolved in this thread because almost everyone else here was heavily involved in hardware escalation. And that's so seldom the solution.

I'm not a snaffle bit nazi. I even own a short shanked mullen mouth pelham.

madeline

barnie
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:11 PM
M- I beg to differ...when you said that you thought neither bit nor leverage was the answer...you were certainly giving your opinion/advise...maybe not an answer til you later intimated that she might look into a new trainer...but never the less I saw you as being judgemental about the posters choice of bits...not really bothering to offer a legit solution, just being snarky. I don't think I was the only one who read you this way. And thanks for your confidence in my "omniscience". I know my SO would agree w/you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:18 PM
"Where do they sell those bicycle chain bits?"

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Midge, try the saddlebred tent. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:22 PM
Right next to the chain nosebands...

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Ineptly
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:23 PM
Or you can make one yourself. I used the chain from the old kiddie bike in the garage and two binder rings. I left the grease and scum on the chain...helps the bit "grip" the tongue smoothly. Schnookums loffs it!

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:24 PM
Midge, I have a lovely custom super fine edge extra tight corkscrew you can toy around with... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For anyone making assumptions about riding ability based on a post discussing what tack the rider uses, you might want to consider that if YOU watched the horse and rider in question it might very well look like a smooth, effortless trip where the horse and rider worked together and nobody got pulled past the distances. That very same rider might very well think he/she was pulled around the ring. It's just that when you are riding at a higher level of difficulty, what you think as an issue is mostly not apparent to the less educated eye.

And if a trainer is some what well known for the quiet, easy way his horses go, if one of them shows up in more tack than typical, I'm willing to believe that the individual horse is an exception and needs the tack.

And if that same horse can tool around the course with slightly less tack when the pro is in the tack... BFD... That's part of the definition of an ammy. Not a Pro. If we all waited until we were as good as a pro, there wouldn't hardly be any point in having an ammy division would there?

Or maybe all the ammies should make sure they never get on tough horses where their riding ability is actually challenged (Pocket Trainer would SO agree!). Oh but wait! That concept is worth at least 30 pages mostly starring ESG ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This looks like a can't win for losing moment. If you pilot a horse around the A/Os mounted on an animal with extra tack then you are not educated enough to ride it, but if you ride around on one with a snaffle, you probably can't really ride... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

spryngtree
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:
After about ten shows, we felt a need to take a break and focus on solving some problems that cropped up. About this time, she started raising herself above the three ring, so we have dropped it from the bit arsenal. We are doing a huge amount of flatwork and a lot of gymnastics, all in the plain snaffle.

Knowing Midge, I imagine I will change bits with her all the time in an effort to surprise her with something different as well as find the right bit for the job. I will never be able to loop the rein at her on course in a plain snaffle, but I hope to find the right bit in which I _can_ loop the rein.

Where do they sell those bicycle chain bits? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for answering Midge. I'm curious, what made you (or your trainer) decide it was time to go back to gymnastics with a snaffle to solve the problems? Was it a specific theory? Or did you just figure you'd give it a try?

It makes sense to me to try a bunch of different bits to figure out what works for your horse. I used to know a mare that had the lightest mouth who hated any bit but a Waterford. If you put something else on her she'd try desperately to get it out of her mouth, including stopping in the middle of the ring and rubbing her head on her legs. I can't say I've ever met any horse that prefered a bicycle chain, but who knows, they may be out there.

Anyone else going to answer? Is there a point at which you'd say "hey this DTW gag isn't working"?

E.

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:31 PM
"Right next to the chain nosebands..."

Devildog, haven't we taught you anything? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's a TACK noseband, designed to be used with a short standing martingale and the afore-mentioned bicycle chain bit!!!

Ineptly
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is there a point at which you'd say "hey this DTW gag isn't working"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it does work for this horse. Obviously. I don't see the problem.

Anyone know where I can get a dtw gag for my daughter's 10hh shetland jumper? I think it would work well and help her get to the east coast championships.

spryngtree
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Medievalist:
Get a life people. Go ride or get a job or something. It's none of ya'll's damn businees what zoef is doing or not doing.


Well goodness, no one put a gun to her head and forced her to post about her pulling problem did they? If she really just wanted to support you privately I'm sure she could have figured out how to reach you privately. However, it doesn't seem to me that this thread was particularly about Zoef, but rather about whether escalating hardware was the answer to a pulling problem. No matter whose problem it was.

and DMK posted:

"And if a trainer is some what well known for the quiet, easy way his horses go, if one of them shows up in more tack than typical, I'm willing to believe that the individual horse is an exception and needs the tack."

I would agree too, except for pages and pages no one would even tell us poor slobs who the trainer was! Just a lot of "giggle giggle, I know who it is" I don't know much about this trainer. Is he generally known for the quiet easy way his horses go and a general lack of excess hardware? That would be interesting information.

E.

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 04:44 PM
Oh, but Curious George, it's the CHAIN noseband that is better than sliced bread! Just ask VATrainer/colin/insertalterofthedayhere!!!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

DoubleTwistedWire
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:11 PM
Oh, please, tell me more about this new chain noseband! I think it would be a great step up from the tack noseband, which is just not working well enough with the martingale. I think the chain would really help him to back off!

Anyway, DMK's right. You can't win with this--someone will criticize no matter what tack you go into the ring with. But if it works for that combination, I've got no problem with it. It doesn't matter who the trainer is, or the rider--it matters that they know how to find the equipment that works for that particular pair. What Zoef said was said in a joking tone, not the tone of a junior asking for advice; she wasn't telling anyone to run out and use it, simply saying it to illustrate that there are horses who will in fact pull through anything, no matter what bit you've got, or who's training it, or who's riding it.

Jair
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spryngtree:
I would agree too, except for pages and pages no one would even tell us poor slobs who the trainer was! Just a lot of "giggle giggle, I know who it is" .
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%. I'm surprised you failed to notice that part DMK in your usual eloquent response. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is exactly why I mostly gave up on this board! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I thought this would be an interesting thread to read as I've had some pulling issues with my warmblood, but instead I got a useless dialogue with the usual "suspects" chiming in under their false names http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Called the village, they didn't want DMK back

bigbay
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Indepthly:
Or you can make one yourself. I used the chain from the old kiddie bike in the garage and two binder rings. I left the grease and scum on the chain...helps the bit "grip" the tongue smoothly. Schnookums loffs it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif LOFF Indepthly! You have the best sense of humor for a 102 year old I ever saw. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

lil devil
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:37 PM
Funny, Jair, coming from someone who has been accused of not even existing yourself!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:


This is exactly why I mostly gave up on this board! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I thought this would be an interesting thread to read as I've had some pulling issues with my warmblood, but instead I got a useless dialogue with the usual "suspects" chiming in under their false names http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

_Called the village, they didn't want DMK back_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And who could blame them? But I agree. It seems whenever someone should be held accountable for anything, the goofballs hijack the thread to something so irritating that one winces. Devildog is excused, as she's going through some pretty nasty personal stuff, but the others? Grow up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:41 PM
Huh? What did I do? I saw this thread going to you know where in a you know what, and as many others have done to lighten the mood, I decided to serve up some baby quiches with a side of Monty Python! Even if my life wasn't going to crap, I would do the same thing!!!!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Medievalist
Oct. 30, 2003, 05:54 PM
Apparently baby quiches are taboo, dd....just don't tell ETBW! She'd be crushed at the downfall of her favorite hors d'oevre!

I'm thinking of making a new dish...the snaffle waffle. I think that that would be an appropriate food for this thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

nhwr
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:39 PM
I wandered over from the realm of dressage, intirigued by some one's reference to cored peaches and thinking might learn something about bits. Imagine my surprise when I read this thread. I didn't really learn anything about bits at all. I was reminded of some novel ways to include 5 fruits and vegetables a day.

I guess I would agree that some horses are lighter than other. But coming from the land where the smooth snaffle or the double bridle are your only choice, I guess I'd have to say that I do see a problem with trying to fix this with stronger hardware. Dressage riders address this issue all the time without resorting to even a slow twist.

I am not up on les noms de jouer in the hunter/jumper world. I am sure Chris Kappler is very talented, but why is there no attempt to fix the root problem. A horse that thinks pulling is OK in a milder bit will eventually pull with a more severe bit, won't they? Why not just train the horse not to pull? That is what we have to do in dressage.

Not trying to be flip here, I am genuinely curious.

Richmond
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:42 PM
Jair and DMK, you make me smile http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif...thanks!

Midge
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spryngtree:Thanks for answering Midge. I'm curious, what made you (or your trainer) decide it was time to go back to gymnastics with a snaffle to solve the problems? Was it a specific theory? Or did you just figure you'd give it a try? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plain snaffle and gymnastics were two separate things. I needed to solve the problems that cropped up. In focusing on flatwork and exercises to work on specific problems, rather than jump courses, I don't need more than the plain snaffle, so that's what I use.

Basically, she only needs the stronger bit for jumping courses in the steps. I think using a 'strong' bit all the time would just leave me with fewer options when I want to ramp up my power.

I wanted to get to the shows and we did. Now I want to solve the issues that have cropped up while our focus was showing. Back to the basics, then back to the show ring. Hopefully, before I start collecting Social Security. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jair
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildogsalterego:
Funny, Jair, coming from someone who has been accused of not even existing yourself!
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes that's right, I'd forgotten about that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But considering the closeted gossip queen who started that rumour, can't say I take it seriously! When I pinch myself DMK still feels it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I wonder if I can get the little message under my name changed to The Existential One or something like that? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Called the village, they didn't want DMK back

Sparky22
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:

I am not up on les noms de jouer in the hunter/jumper world. I am sure Chris Kappler is very talented, but why is there no attempt to fix the root problem. A horse that thinks pulling is OK in a milder bit will eventually pull with a more severe bit, won't they? Why not just train the horse not to pull? That is what we have to do in dressage.

Not trying to be flip here, I am genuinely curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't just directed to you, but following the idea behind your post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Some horses do not change their ways. I would love to ride every horse I sit on in a plain snaffle, but sometimes that is not an option. I've met a lot of horses where you can try and retrain them all you want, but they will get pully when they start jumping.

Kinda like the old dogs and new tricks thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
I wandered over from the realm of dressage, intirigued by some one's reference to cored peaches and thinking might learn something about bits. Imagine my surprise when I read this thread. I didn't really learn anything about bits at all. I was reminded of some novel ways to include 5 fruits and vegetables a day.

I guess I would agree that some horses are lighter than other. But coming from the land where the smooth snaffle or the double bridle are your only choice, I guess I'd have to say that I do see a problem with trying to fix this with stronger hardware. Dressage riders address this issue all the time without resorting to even a slow twist.

I am not up on les noms de jouer in the hunter/jumper world. I am sure Chris Kappler is very talented, but why is there no attempt to fix the root problem. A horse that thinks pulling is OK in a milder bit will eventually pull with a more severe bit, won't they? Why not just train the horse not to pull? That is what we have to do in dressage.

Not trying to be flip here, I am genuinely curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because, mon cher nhwr, that isn't how the oh-so-successful A/O rider in question allegedly does it, so therefore all the little wannabe lemmings have to follow suit. Training to solve issues like this simply isn't done, dahling........... After all, one isn't required to think when putting more hardware and bondage equipment on his/her horse. Perish the thought that some actual training might be the solution! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Madeline
Oct. 30, 2003, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barnie:
M- I beg to differ...when you said that you thought neither bit nor leverage was the answer...you were certainly giving your opinion/advise...maybe not an answer til you later intimated that she might look into a new trainer...but never the less I saw you as being judgemental about the posters choice of bits...not really bothering to offer a legit solution, just being snarky. I don't think I was the only one who read you this way. And thanks for your confidence in my "omniscience". I know my SO would agree w/you! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheesh. My legit solution was that zoef should look somewhere other than hardware escalation. Training maybe. Increasing her skills. Getting her horse more "broke." Who knows.

It's a bit of a stretch to assume that when someone writes anonymously on a public forum:"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)."

What she really means is " I'm a really great rider and train with a BNT (and you would all be so jealous if you knew HOW cool I am and HOW B a BNT my trainer actually is). I'm just posting that I need more hardware as a joke. I don't really, and how dare you assume that you know anything. My similarly anonymous friends on this forum and I are cool, you're not, and don't you dare read exactly what I wrote, peon."

When all we have to go on are zoef'sOWN WORDS I think we should be allowed to react to them, no?

madeline

Ineptly
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>t's a bit of a stretch to assume that when someone writes anonymously on a public forum:"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)."

What she really means is " I'm a really great rider and train with a BNT (and you would all be so jealous if you knew HOW cool I am and HOW B a BNT my trainer actually is). I'm just posting that I need more hardware as a joke. I don't really, and how dare you assume that you know anything. My similarly anonymous friends on this forum and I are cool, you're not, and don't you dare read exactly what I wrote, peon."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

***twilight zone music playing in the background***

ESG
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Indepthly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>t's a bit of a stretch to assume that when someone writes anonymously on a public forum:"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)."

What she really means is " I'm a really great rider and train with a BNT (and you would all be so jealous if you knew HOW cool I am and HOW B a BNT my trainer actually is). I'm just posting that I need more hardware as a joke. I don't really, and how dare you assume that you know anything. My similarly anonymous friends on this forum and I are cool, you're not, and don't you dare read exactly what I wrote, peon."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

***twilight zone music playing in the background***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your point is? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ineptly
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And your point is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually hear twilight zone music when I think people are delusional. But I also sometimes hear it because I am watching tv and the show comes up. Which instance is it in this case? That is for the jury to decide.

Richmond
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:13 PM
Indepthly's point is, PULLEEEEZE! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Whoever posted that this was a hopeless cause, WAS RIGHT!

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spryngtree:
I would agree too, except for pages and pages no one would even tell us poor slobs who the trainer was! Just a lot of "giggle giggle, I know who it is" I don't know much about this trainer. Is he generally known for the quiet easy way his horses go and a general lack of excess hardware? That would be interesting information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree that the little "I've got a secret" attitude reflected about all the maturity that I expected from the usual suspects... BUT... in my book, what is equally bad is leaping to conclusions when there is no way you can know all the facts. I mean it's a plain god-given fact that some of the best pros and ammies are out there on winning horses who have been known to yank, jerk, pull and otherwise be damned difficult to ride even with a little or a lot of extra control. The bit Jus des Pommes wore look like it might stop a brakeless freight train heading down a mountain, but hey, that gold medal still looked good on him.

So yes, assuming that just because someone said they were pulled around in bit X that they might not be on a well trained horse, or with a suitable trainer or that they aren't a capable rider, or any inference along those lines is a) probably wrong and b) even if you aren't wrong and the advice you might give is sound, who is going to listen when they are to busy defending everything they hold dear?

So if advice was asked for and hypothetically speaking you didn't know the facts, it's always an option to ask a few questions that might help flesh out the details such as:

1. I don't know your trainer - do most horses in his program go in tough bits and/or are hard to ride?

2. What level are you riding at and are you comfortable/succesful at that level?

3. How comfortable is your horse at that level? Does he refuse, suck back then race at the jumps or is he just scopy as hell and not intimidated by the fences?

... before making any grand pronouncements about what is or is not right for this program. Because if the answers to the questions are: "Most are very responsive and in most traditional tack, and very succesful at their given level, I ride A/O jumpers and my horse is very forward and scopey" indicates a whole different issue than "they all go in gags, my trainer said that is the best bit, low A/As and he only refuses when I forget my crop"


(I noticed Jair, it's just I try to ignore stuff that reminds me of Life as a Thirteen Year Old. Besides, for all I know, they might well be 13 and not capable of better behavior!) PS - new sig! Keep up with the times baby! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

nhwr
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:23 PM
Well, OK I see that a horse may pull when it starts jumping. But doesn't that mean something? As a dressage rider to me it means they are on the forehand. You don't want that in a jumping horse, right? (I am assuming here, I don't know much about jumping). It just seems to me that a horse wouldn't jump as well from its forehand. Why not work it out? It can take awhile, but I think it is possible.

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
But considering the closeted gossip queen who started that rumour, can't say I take it seriously! When I pinch myself DMK still feels it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You KNOW that wasn't me! Think further north, rock boy. Besides, if you don't behave, I'll have to get Puffin involved! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Sparky22
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
Well, OK I see that a horse may pull when it starts jumping. But doesn't that mean something? As a dressage rider to me it means they are on the forehand. You don't want that in a jumping horse, right? (I am assuming here, I don't know much about jumping). It just seems to me that a horse wouldn't jump as well from its forehand. Why not work it out? It can take awhile, but I think it is possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of horses pull because they get excited when they jump. One of the best horses I ever sat on was like a fat kid in a candy store the minute she walked in the jumper ring. Doesn't necesarilly mean they are on their forehand either.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
Well, OK I see that a horse may pull when it starts jumping. But doesn't that mean something? As a dressage rider to me it means they are on the forehand. You don't want that in a jumping horse, right? (I am assuming here, I don't know much about jumping). It just seems to me that a horse wouldn't jump as well from its forehand. Why not work it out? It can take awhile, but I think it is possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, you can't forget the whole idea of jumpers is to be clean AND fast. Once you get out there and are moving along to make optimum time or are in the jump off and going for best time, and you are on a hot number who enjoys his job and is singleminded about how he is going to do it... well, things aren't always that smooth.

And more importantly, it might really screw up your dressage score if yor horse neglects to return to a more collected gait at the appropriate letter, but when you are coming up to a fence that is eye level with your horse, it might screw up your body parts if he neglects to come back as requested. So it's not quite the finesse sport that dressage is.

But there is a difference between a horse that flings himself at the jumps because he is not in a proper frame or he is scared of the jumps/overfaced and more bit might fix that problem temporarily, but it ain't gonna make him a permanent fixture in the placings, nor is it likely to work for very long. But that same bit might be the key to a well trained animal with opinions. And when it is a long 2 to a short 1, there is only ONE opinion allowed!

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

nhwr
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:35 PM
Not trying to be argumentative but a lot of dressage horses are amped all the time too, but they still are trained not to pull.

The horse I am currently riding was a jumper before I bought her. She pulled in snaffle like a team of mules when I first got her. She gets very excited about jumping and really likes it too. It took almost 2 years to re-school her so she wouldn't pull anymore. I did this with her because I had to, I couldn't compete her at lower levels in anything but a snaffle. She was better in a double bridle, but still thought it was the thing to do. But now she doesn't pull even when she jumps.

DMK when you say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And when it is a long 2 to a short 1, there is only ONE opinion allowed! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you hit the nail on the head. It is all about submission. But I think real submission comes from the horse, not the tack. (I am too chicken to test that theory over a big fence http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) But if anyone wants to try it my mare got 9s for jumping on her mare test and is closely related to Dollar Girl!

[This message was edited by nhwr on Oct. 30, 2003 at 09:46 PM.]

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:44 PM
Wow. Zoef says ONE little remark, intended as a "hey, I have know what that's like" and it sparks an EIGHT page and counting thread!!! And the attitudes that get me are the ones that are bashing her. I am surprised a mod hasn't stepped in yet as I believe it is against the rules to personally attack people. Now, can we all take a step back, breathe and get onto a discussion about bits and not people? Or am I going to have to start flinging insults around here????

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:45 PM
If you were to watch a lot of these horses that I described while schooling or hacking, they can go around in a snaffle and be perfectly agreeable. It's not like they don't know the difference between that and a jumper class!

The funniest thing I ever saw was my trainer's wife filling her A/O hunter class with her notoriously difficult to ride A/O jumper. The first trip he went around mostly like a hunter. Maybe a little surprised about how small the fences were, but very agreeable. He even got a 2nd in the class (there were only 3). Second trip? Oh, we ALL waited around to see that one! Think fire breathing dragon... He had a jump off to win, don't you see? And there she was in a plain old snaffle. I'll never forget him charging down that last line - a 4 to a 2. We actually had a betting pool to see if he would get away with a 4 to a 1!

As regards your horse, we don't know anything about her, so we don't know if she was just plain incorrectly trained to begin with, or this was just her nature. But if you have just been schooling her over jumps and telling her that this relaxed pace is her new job, and you haven't asked her to do her job at a jump off pace complete with turns, acceleration, collection followed by more acceleration, then you might try that a few times before you say she doesn't pull anymore.

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Jair
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

You KNOW that wasn't me! Think further north, rock boy. Besides, if you don't behave, I'll have to get Puffin involved! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh, I knew it was the flat-as-a-pancake wench from the dregs of Toronto, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but I just wanted you to know i was thinking of you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I wonder how Puffin is these days? Must go say hi http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Richmond
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:47 PM
DD-Why should you be left out!!Jump in the water is fine!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...Jair!

oh, absolutely!

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Puffin
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:51 PM
Did I hear my name? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DMK
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:55 PM
screwed up that login, didn't you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't you just hate it when you forget you logged in as your alter? (or your stolen indentity!) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Puffin
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:57 PM
totally! I'm rather out of practice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I was laughing pretty hard as I did it as I knew i was providing you with masses of entertainment! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 07:59 PM
Why yes puffin, I believe you did! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Jair
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:02 PM
OMG! did you have a baby Devildog? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Where have I been!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Congratulations sweetie! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif That is brilliant! and twins too! my god what a handful!

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Black Market Radio
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:08 PM
Ok Rock boy... what rock HAVE you been hiding under!!!! They are almost 6 months old now you dork! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif You know I love ya!!!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Policy of Truth
Oct. 30, 2003, 08:14 PM
"Where have I been!! "

I've been wondering THAT for a while, now! I'm so glad to "see" you again, rock boy!

nhwr
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And more importantly, it might really screw up your dressage score if yor horse neglects to return to a more collected gait at the appropriate letter, but when you are coming up to a fence that is eye level with your horse, it might screw up your body parts if he neglects to come back as requested. So it's not quite the finesse sport that dressage is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes there is more a lot risk in jumping. So all the more reason to have the best foundation/training on the horse possible.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As regards your horse, we don't know anything about her, so we don't know if she was just plain incorrectly trained to begin with, or this was just her nature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I would guess that we don't know that about any given horse. But isn't it the goal of training to overcome a horse's nature to the extent that it interferes with the goal?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> turns, acceleration, collection followed by more acceleration <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually that seems analogous to transitions in dressage to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...you haven't asked her to do her job at a jump off pace complete with turns, acceleration, collection followed by more acceleration, then you might try that a few times before you say she doesn't pull anymore.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if I follow what you are saying, it is not jumping per se that makes them pull, but how you jump them? I guess I'd agree with that. In fact it is the point I was trying to make.

I hate it when people who ride h/j say "Oh my horse can do 10 meter circles and go sideways, so he is a 2nd level dressage horse". I don't mean to sound like that, though I am sure it comes off that way. It isn't that simple and I know really jumping (a whole course with big fences and time pressure) is way more complicated than what I do with my mare. But in principle, I think pulling is a training issue.

[This message was edited by nhwr on Oct. 31, 2003 at 01:21 AM.]

fleur
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And more importantly, it might really screw up your dressage score if yor horse neglects to return to a more collected gait at the appropriate letter, but when you are coming up to a fence that is eye level with your horse, it might screw up your body parts if he neglects to come back as requested. So it's not quite the finesse sport that dressage is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


DMK, this a really interesting way of looking at it that hadn't occured to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif this is a good discussion, for the most part http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

spryngtree
Oct. 30, 2003, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
So yes, assuming that just because someone said they were pulled around in bit X that they might not be on a well trained horse, or with a suitable trainer or that they aren't a capable rider, or any inference along those lines is a) probably wrong and b) even if you aren't wrong and the advice you might give is sound, who is going to listen when they are to busy defending everything they hold dear?

So if advice was asked for and hypothetically speaking you didn't know the facts, it's always an option to ask a few questions that might help flesh out the details such as:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't offer any advice. I don't have any advice. I just thought it was ridiculous that instead of fleshing out the details or saying, it was a joke, everyone just went crazy with the giggling. I DO think if someone who wasn't known by a few people on this board had chimed in with the same statement as Zoef did, that imaginary person would have gotten a very different reaction from the same people defending Zoef.

Sure people could ask more questions, but at least to me, without any possible way of knowing this person or her trainer, the statement was pretty self explanatory. Madeline's post may have been a bit abrupt and perhaps she should have found out more about the rider...but as a short response to a short statement, it didn't seem unreasonable to me. Perhaps the rider should have offered more information. It certainly would have been a more interesting discussion if she had.

I would stand by this as a general fact... If a horse continues to pull through strong bits, eventually you are going to run out of hardware and then you are dealing with a training issue. At what point do you stop and say that you are not getting anywhere with a stronger bit? That is NOT the same as saying a stronger bit is never a good idea. But it is a long way from saying it is always the best idea.

Anyway, that's an interesting question to me, but if you all would rather discuss quiche that's your choice. Personally I think quiche is kind of strange tasting.

E.

Tin
Oct. 30, 2003, 10:57 PM
entertainment for a thursday night! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Gotta love this board! Hey Jair! Missed ya Rock boy!

I stayed away from this thread for a long time but when it escalated to 9 pages now I just had to take a peak! Especially because I have a big lug of a WB who I swear makes "choo choo" noises when I ride http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif we're getting there though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I must say I was kind of annoyed with all the secret "you don't know know her trainer? *gasp*" and "you wouldn't say that if you saw her ride" blah blah blah mostly because I'm so outta the loop that it's sad! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif But also cause it's a BB where people hide behind names *ahem* and people WILL respond to pretty much anything posted.

But hey, I'm bringing the beer to this thread!

~ they tease you cause they like you ~

El Grande Stimpendo
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:04 AM
I dont know who Chris Klapper is, but I doubt he's as good as me. I've NEVER fallen off in a Grand Prix. I doubt he can make that claim.

Silk
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's a bit of a stretch to assume that when someone writes anonymously on a public forum:"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)."

What she really means is " I'm a really great rider and train with a BNT (and you would all be so jealous if you knew _HOW_ cool I am and _HOW_ B a BNT my trainer actually is). I'm just posting that I need more hardware as a joke. I don't really, and how dare you assume that you know anything. My similarly anonymous friends on this forum and I are cool, you're not, and don't you dare read exactly what I wrote, peon."

When all we have to go on are _zoef'sOWN WORDS_ I think we should be allowed to react to them, no?

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a really good point!

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

caffeinated
Oct. 31, 2003, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's a bit of a stretch to assume that when someone writes anonymously on a public forum:"I still get dragged around the ring on my big mare in a double twisted copper wire gag. I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her)."

What she really means is " I'm a really great rider and train with a BNT (and you would all be so jealous if you knew _HOW_ cool I am and _HOW_ B a BNT my trainer actually is). I'm just posting that I need more hardware as a joke. I don't really, and how dare you assume that you know anything. My similarly anonymous friends on this forum and I are cool, you're not, and don't you dare read exactly what I wrote, peon."

When all we have to go on are _zoef'sOWN WORDS_ I think we should be allowed to react to them, no?

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a really good point!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a good point. But people reacted to Zoef's words in different ways. I took it as commiseration and a joke, nothing more. When I read it, it sounded like the bit in question was what worked for the particular horse- so I have to admit some consternation when the thread suddenly became about how bad her trainer must be.

All giggling aside, everybody reads things differently on the internet, and while I admit some amusement at the thought of Chris Kappler, imbecile trainer, I think certain folks jumped in with advice for that particular poster that was unnecessary and unasked for.

If I saw a post that read "my horse is really really strong, and we have him in a triple twisted barbed while three ring elevator, and he still hurts my arms and doesn;t listen, what do I do?" I may very well have said what madeline said. But when I read "my horse is strong, I have him in this bit, heh, maybe I should switch up &lt;smileywavey&gt;" I'm inclined to think it's just a jokey kind of comment, and not one that is asking for opinions or advice.

Remind me to be very careful next time I say anything self-deprecating about my riding lest I be told that everything I'm doing is wrong...

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:15 AM
all I'm going to say is that I think everyone takes everything too seriously around here!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

now where are those baby vegetables http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

LGW
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:20 AM
CGR,
Some vegetables to accompany your big old turkey leg?

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:34 AM
LGW - and thats a FRIED turkey leg thank you!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

phone sneakers
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:


This is exactly why I mostly gave up on this board! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I thought this would be an interesting thread to read as I've had some pulling issues with my warmblood, but instead I got a useless dialogue with the usual "suspects" chiming in under their false names http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

_Called the village, they didn't want DMK back_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_And who could blame them? But I agree. It seems whenever someone should be held accountable for anything, the goofballs hijack the thread to something so irritating that one winces. Grow up. _ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>]

why, pray, is this any different than the oldenburg registry conversation on sport horse breeding? it seems the chocolate brigade was encouraged, even assisted, by the moderators in that case. clearly, when a thread becomes contentious, the good posters have been conditioned to speak of edibles and pocket rockets.

oh, and speaking of pocket rockets, maybe we can have an auction to raise funds for new batteries for yours, esg.

AWIP
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:43 AM
Regarding the more dressage training aspect .... nhwr, it doesn't always translate.

There's a horse in my stable, a dressage schoolmaster in every sense of the word. He is the most patient, kindest, most gentlemanly horse I've ever met, trained by Evi Strasser, a former dressage YR horse. He is incredibly trained on the flat, until you put a jump in front of him and then the fire breathing dragon appears. It doesn't matter if its an 18" crossrail, its all yee-haw, lets go. He used to event up to a decent level (prelim I think?) as I recall but it became too difficult to hold him on course. For some horses, there is just a switch in their head that flips when a fence appears, even if you can do all the dressage party tricks in a loose-ring snaffle. Dressage and jumping are different games even if related, in dressage the horse is never to take over, in jumping the horse MUST take over at points and once you let them take over you must be able to take back the decision making process. It has to be this way so that they can save our sorry butts if we err. If the dressage work always translated the way we believe it should ... my horse and this afore-mentioned one would be easy to handle over fences.

Some riders are presented with a choice: bit up for the safety of both, sell the horse and likely have someone else do the exact same thing or quit jumping the horse.

Flashy Gray
Oct. 31, 2003, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I usually hear twilight zone music when I think people are delusional. But I also sometimes hear it because I am watching tv and the show comes up. Which instance is it in this case? That is for the jury to decide. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

DMK
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:09 AM
And to add on to a worki in progress' post, I imagine that there are some horses out there that will never be successful at dressage because they just don't want to play the game the way the rules are written - they may have all the talent in the world, and be athletic as hell, but they don't "look the part". I get the feeling that there is less room for "unorthodox" in dressage. There is flat out NO room for "unorthodox" in hunters, that's for sure! But jumpers aren't about an ideal or a standard, they are about the fastest, cleanest round.

And yes, we all know that there is an ideal way for a horse to jump, and when you are selecting a prospect, a horse who fits that ideal is probably going to be more succesful than an unorthodox horse. But that doesn't mean that the unorthodox horse won't be awesome. The record books are full of winning unorthodox horses. I think I remember reading that Aaron Vale's Nonix le Parc is never jumped or schooled extensively at home, only hacked and conditioned. He is only jumped over a very few fences before going in the class, and all this is because he is very strong, very opinionated and wants very much to be in charge. Naturally he shouldn't be a success, but nevertheless he is second in the AGA rankings right now.

And yes, I am sure lots of people, including Vale attempted to make Nonix fit into a more conventional program before they found out what worked for him and stuck with it. So is that a failure of the horseman involved or a credit to their ability to tailor their program to the individual animal?

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Janet
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:09 AM
I freely admit to only reading the first 3 and the last 3 pages. But I am still going to spout my opinions.

"Pulling" happens in two places. Between the ears (brain) and in the neck muscles. The mouth, and the bit are only the means to COMMUNICATE to the brain.

A "harsh" bit is (or at least should be) used like spurs or the whip, to reinforce the milder aids so the horse remembers to respond to the milder aids. "Nagging" with a harsh bit, like "nagging" with the spurs, tends to make the horse LESS responsive, not more.

Some horse tend to "stop listening" once they are on course and think they know better than you do. In that case, the "milder aids" are likely to be ignored, no matter how "well trained" out of competition. You have to "shout" in order to be heard. Depending on the horse, it is just as appropriate to use a different bit in competition as it is to use different spurs.

But if the horse is running through the bit, or ignoring the leg, even when NOT in competition, it is time to work on the "between the ears" part of the equation.

One of things I remember from Steinkraus's book (and I am probably paraphrasing VERY badly - it has been a long time since I read it) is this: "Every time you compete in a jumper class, especially a jump off, you are messing up their training (because of the compromises you have to make). So after each class, you have to figure out what it is you messed up, and fix it, before your next competition."

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

buryinghill1
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zoef: I need to find something stronger I think (either that or grow about a foot so I can get some more leverage on her). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Leverage, Zoef? http://www.bennettstack.com/lovell_bits%20&pieces.htm
Ride carefully and with whatever works http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Having ridden a suicidal type, I now believe in adequate stopping power http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Control is a wonderful thing!

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:18 AM
Nah bh1...now this (http://www.quickbits.net/other/76.htm) is leverage! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I still can't figure out why no one has jumped on me for this one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

caffeinated
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
Nah bh1...now http://www.quickbits.net/other/76.htm is leverage! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I still can't figure out why no one has jumped on me for this one http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, I totally need that bit for when I start riding my baby next fall. hee. Actually, I might buy it, just to scare my boyfriend, as it does look like some sort of torture device, if you get creative.

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

And yes, I am sure lots of people, including Vale attempted to make Nonix fit into a more conventional program before they found out what worked for him and stuck with it. So is that a failure of the horseman involved or a credit to their ability to tailor their program to the individual animal?

_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would hope that all trainers looked at every horse in their programs this way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:25 AM
My horse likes it because he can grab the shanks with his lips and then chew on the leather http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif but he probably doesnt like that I can now choose where to put him to the jumps...nothing like the feeling of imminent death while cantering down to a giant oxer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I did that one too many times....

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Catalina
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
nothing like the feeling of imminent death while cantering down to a giant oxer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I did that one too many times....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aw, come on girl, what are you talking about? I would think that was a feeling one would absolutely savor http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif.

Has anyone ever tried barbed wire? I bet a horse would really stop with that in his mouth.

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:33 AM
Yipes!!!!
Catalina, I know you are joking....but that sounds positively gruesome!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

nhwr
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dressage and jumping are different games even if related, in dressage the horse is never to take over, in jumping the horse MUST take over at points and once you let them take over you must be able to take back the decision making process. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know that isn't really true in dressage, that the horse is never to take over. In fact the whole goal is to get the horse to carry its self for at least part of the time at any given level of work. You have heard the term self carriage... Granted the risks us chicken$h!+ DQs take aren't the same as what you adrenaline freaks go for. But in principle, it isn't that different.

I guess I wonder really is "some horses are just different when you jump them" or if that isn't just our expectation and they are merely fufilling it?

afungus
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:04 AM
Perhaps the dressage experts should take over the re-training of the freight-train jumpers so that the jumper riders can learn exaclty what they are talking about. The final exam could be a big jumper class in a smooth snaffle. Bernie Taurig dabbled in dressage for a while.....wonder what he would have to say on the subject.

HeyYouNags
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:10 AM
&lt;HYN wipes popcorn butter off her fingers&gt;

Dang, DMK and nhwr, did you have to take the latest bb slugfest and turn it into a serious discussion?

Now that the DQs are moving into this thread, can I ask about the European jumpers? On those rare occasions when I've seen international jumping competition, I've been impressed by German jumper riders, and how they seem to approach fences like they're riding dressage. The horses collect and sit a couple of strides out, and the riders look sort of dressage-y in their posture - very straight. Do they also use stronger bits? I never paid attention...

My experience, n=1, with a determined puller was my old OTTB, whom I retrained as a dressage horse. He became very responsive to a hollow mouth snaffle. But after about 5 years of dressage ring work, friends convinced me to try foxhunting. In a pelham, double reins, and curb chain, that sucker gave me the upper body workout of a lifetime.

I think we just beat the master by a nose at the wire... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DMK
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
You know that isn't really true in dressage, that the horse is never to take over. In fact the whole goal is to get the horse to carry its self for at least part of the time at any given level of work. You have heard the term self carriage... Granted the risks us chicken$h!+ DQs take aren't the same as what you adrenaline freaks go for. But in principle, it isn't that different.

I guess I wonder really is "some horses are just different when you jump them" or if that isn't just our expectation and they are merely fufilling it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if carrying themselves is a good comparison, because I expect every horse competing at a higher level to carry themselves, be they exquisitely schooled upper level dressage horse or head flipping psycopathic death wish jumper. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But the way I have always thought of it is that a dressage horse is always waiting on the rider. Jumpers do this interesting cross between waiting on the rider, but taking care of themselves at the drop of a hat. Hunters and really are expected to do it mostly themselves and not wait for the rider. Then there are event horses which get to do all three, depending on what day it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And I can't really agree with the idea that they are fulfilling our expectations - I don't think that gives the horse enough credit for having his own personality.

HYN... I'm sorry... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

As for your german question, some of the most interesting hardware I have ever seen has been on the European horses! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

Janet
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:24 AM
A dressage horse is supposed to have self carriage, but it is also supposed to be submissive. Having self carraige is not the same as "thinking for himself".

Once you tell it what to do, the dressage horse is supposed to keep doing it until you tell it to do something different. Not so with a jumper. The horse takes much more responsibility for "decision making" in a jumper.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

nhwr
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Perhaps the dressage experts should take over the re-training of the freight-train jumpers so that the jumper riders can learn exaclty what they are talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok but it comes to the fences, you guys would have to take over or pay for the underwear changes http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Jumpers do this interesting cross between waiting on the rider, but taking care of themselves at the drop of a hat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think horses in many disciplines do this, in one way or another. The real tranisition for the horse is mental. Think of a dressage test like jumping a course. We set a horse up for a movement and, in the ideal, let the horse do it. Just like in the ideal course, you'd point the horse at a fence and let them jump it. The reality is different in both cases because DQs are assessing how is the foward, bend, engagement blah, blah and then work for the transition for the next movement (asking the horse to "come back" to them) and jumpers are thinking of the the speed, the stride and the spot and then the next fence on course (what would be a transition to a dressage horse).

I agree with what you are saying about a horse's personality to a certain extent. Some get hot when they jump (my mare does), that is a personality thing. But I still think that hot doesn't have to equal heavy.

And the chermans, I read about the latest thing Ludger Beerbaum is using. I can't remember what it is called but it is a western bit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

AWIP
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:38 AM
I don't totally agree with the analogy... self-carrige doesn't just happen, we ask for it through the seat/leg/back ... more one minute, less the next. There's not really any time that you turn 100% control over to the horse. 75% maybe ...

Some horses differentiate between situations more than conventional wisdom allows. I had one with a tape measure in his head, 2'9" ok 3' no way ... I didn't even know the bloody fence was 3" higher ... but he did. He was like this with everyone who ever rode him. The current one knows she's at a horse trial and god help me if stadium is before XC because she KNOWS its coming and is a nightmare if she has to wait for it. Personally, I don't care which is first. I can be working out in a field in my dressage saddle concentrating my little brain out and I'll feel a surge of energy off the circle straight at the XC fence I forgot was 40' away. She's the one going, yee-haw, this would be much more exciting. I'm expecting a 20m working trot circle with short walk transitions ... its an active decision on her part. Trot/walk/trot/walk/trot/FENCE/What the Fuh??, TURN, sigh/trot/walk
They aren't all like this but they exist.

PS. Ludger Beerbaum's current bit of choice is a Mikmar Combination bit

[This message was edited by A_work_in_progress on Oct. 31, 2003 at 11:46 AM.]

DMK
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:49 AM
nhwr, I guess the real test about how many times you require the horse to take over, is to ask yourself how many times have you said "Holy $hit, please, Please, PLEASE SAVE US!!!" while schooling or competing, and meaning it in a way that involves more than just wanting the horse to do well when one or both of you has screwed up! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I just never got the feeling that this was in the average dressage rider's standard vocabulary, but I think the jumpers and eventers are familiar with the phrase or some variation thereof.

[I]It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

wanderlust
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:51 AM
nhwr, it is called a "mikmar" and everyone who is anyone these days is using it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And nhwr, I've got to ask... do you REALLY think that you are making an apples-to-apples comparison or are you just being argumentative? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Because I have now had 2 very successful FEI dressage trainers on opposite coasts with completely different backgrounds confirm DMK's assertion that what make a good dressage horse does not necessarily a good jumper or event horse make. Why? Because, in their own words, a jumper or event horse has to do alot of thinking for itself and be able to make good decisions and sometimes even block out the rider's request if trouble is imminent. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Dressage horses, OTOH, need to constantly be waiting and ready for your next command. No independent thinking, please. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

So again, should a jumper *really* be as calm and obedient as a dressage horse in the heat of a galloping, turning jumpoff where the horse is not "on the bit" and engaged every step of the way?

nhwr
Oct. 31, 2003, 09:54 AM
Self carriage is a given (supposedly) at upper levels of dressage, not something that is asked for.

So if it is <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Not so with a jumper. The horse takes much more responsibility for "decision making" in a jumper.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why do you need the stronger bit? I think the decision making is ultimately the rider's responsibility http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Janet I really thought what you said was cool about schooling a horse after a jump off. Is that a common philosophy? I can appreciate that it would take a really special horse to be successful in jumping.

Master Tally, I am not saying a good dressage horse will make a good jumper or vice versa. And I am not trying to be argumentative. I think this in an interesting discussion. You know the best dressage horses, IME, as the really hot ones, they give the brilliance. I am just kind of thinking out loud about whether these differences in riding styles (not individual horses) isn't, in large part a perceptual issue of ours.

Gotta go to physical therapy for my knee (which is why I have so much time for mental masturbation these days) Back in a couple of hours.

[This message was edited by nhwr on Oct. 31, 2003 at 12:22 PM.]

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You know the best dressage horses, IME, as the really hot ones, they give the brilliance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's interesting that you said this because I have always thought the best hunters (jumping form) are the ones that have a little bit of spook in them, I think it really makes them snap their knees up. Just MHO.

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

Pixie Dust
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:21 AM
Wow, sounds like a whole lot of "arm chair quarterbacking" going on here.....but then when do we NOT do that.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I have been taught that a SJ course is to be dressage with jumps in between. We think of it that way, but reality is usually a bit different. But that's eventing. Jumpers is still different; they like to throw in some dirty tricks muhahahahaaa. You just don't get to use your "seat" in a jump off, in the same way a dressage rider does on the flat. I remember one H/J lesson, my dressage buddy was asking our instructor...."now when I come around this bend should my seat bone be...." and the instructor....OMG he laaaaaughed. "SEAT BONE?.....don't worry about that right now!!" Can you keep your dressage horse from ever pulling without your seat? Now, add a jump to the equation.

Theory is great fun, but reality's always right there ready to bite you in the butt!!

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

AWIP
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:22 AM
Ahh ... nhwr ... how's this for the dressage connection?

The brilliant ones tend to be the hot ones and by extension harder to handle. By the time a dressage rider is asking for similar explosive power from a dressage horse as one that is jumping, the double bridle is available. Past a certain point, it is mandatory for competition. Horses learn to respect the added authority of the double and though they can be and are schooled without it can be easier with and softer, quieter cues able to be used. A stronger bit in jumping can serve the same purpose, to contain, control and communicate more softly and kindly than could actually be done with a lesser bit under the same circumstances. Better a more relaxed and softer legs, seat and back that can follow than one made rigid by the sheer strength of trying (and failing) to contain said horse.

buryinghill1
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:30 AM
http://www.mikmarbit.com/entire_bit.htm

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:32 AM
I always thought of Hunters as Dressage with speed bumps.
JMHO of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

bigbay
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:42 AM
Does anyone know of any jumpers that go in a double-bridle? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just curious....

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bigbay:
Does anyone know of any jumpers that go in a double-bridle? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just curious....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to...

I've seen it a lot over in France...

crap the pic is too big and I haven't reinstalled photoshop.

Hmmm this pic is not too big. But it isn't a good one. I'm looking really cool http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif The reason I'm looking so toolish is that my fingers got tangled in his mane and I lost my left reins http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Yep I am a dork http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Bumpkin
Oct. 31, 2003, 10:56 AM
Didi is too cute!!!

"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques"
"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."

elizalex
Oct. 31, 2003, 11:07 AM
I have to say this has been one of the most entertaining threads ever! Do you guys ever go back & read the things you've written? I can't believe how seriously some people take themselves. Zoef was clearly being supportive w/what came across as a clearly tongue in cheek statement, not soliciting all your expert training advice.

But all you snaffle nazis are really going to have a field day when you see the "front page" photo of CK on Towerheads...

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 11:09 AM
Oh yes. He is definitely looking fly with the double bridle. Much better than me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

sss
Oct. 31, 2003, 11:58 AM
Medievalist, is that you in your eq. medal all hunt-coated out? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I too can't believe this thread. No one's saying they aren't trying to get their horses softer with less hardware, or that you shouldn't try to do so. It's just that when the jumps get big, the horse needs an engine of his own in case there's a pilot error. Some horses come to you with "engine" far more ingrained than "stop," and you just have to deal with what you get. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Re-training would take up a horse's entire prime years of jumping too, so you just go out there and deal with it the best you can, and work on it getting better next time.

And that's my big AA jumper competitor opinion! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bigbay
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:13 PM
I wanna know what bit this is: Billy gets Brakes (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5566064631&m=51460499) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

By the way, for those who want a more constructive bitting thread, that one's way more fun. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sss:
Medievalist, is that you in your eq. medal all hunt-coated out? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's required! I have actually grown attached to the look. I don't think I will go back to the polo shirt anymore lol. I'm even doing the big-eq-shove-with-no-release (by virtue of fingers being trapped in unpulled mane) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Big eq-ers around the US are soooooooo jealous upon viewing that lovely phot http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

sss
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:25 PM
There's something to be said about how nice the photos look with a jacket on. And with fingers stuck in that unruly mane; you need about 48 braids. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I don't think my trainer could have been more proud when, about three years ago, I was having an AWESOME round in a medal with literally 40 people in it, and at the last fence I somehow dropped my curb rein. It made a pretty picture flapping in the breeze as I'm discreetly reeling it in during my courtesy circle before I slunk out of the ring.

THAT horse was a lease, he pulled my arms out the first two weeks, and last I saw he was going in a mechanical hackamore with his new owner!

Medievalist
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:33 PM
hahahaha. I never did tell my trainer that that was why I had a rail down at the fence after that jump. He was like "Your body was tilted a little forward" and I was like "yeah....that MUST be what happened" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I've given up on the mane. It looks like hell and I'm ok with that. And I'm busy, so the only way it gets braided is if an hour magically appears in my days. I have pics from one show where I braided...he looked like a sissy so I didn't do it again, but the pics are nice http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Sparky22
Oct. 31, 2003, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
hahahaha. I never did tell my trainer that that was why I had a rail down at the fence after that jump. He was like "Your body was tilted a little forward" and I was like "yeah....that MUST be what happened" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did that about 4 strides out from a square 4'6" oxer out of a corner once. The horse was one that had to be held together until I dropped him at the base. Weeeeelllll... haha he got a little confused when I suddenly had no left rein! Luckilly it just messed up the one jump!

Holy hell batman.. I need someone to proofread for me!

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

easyjumper1
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

As for your german question, some of the most interesting hardware I have ever seen has been on the European horses! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... if you scroll down to page 59 of this document (http://www.knhs.nl/uploads/groot/alg.reglspringen2003.PDF) you can see the only different bits from a normal snaffle we're allowed to use under the 4'3 level, and it ain't much http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif As you can see they keep bit use in check overhere at the lower levels. They've also banned earnets for God knows what reason http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ...

Pixie Dust
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:31 PM
Maybe just because they are stupid... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif (The earnets!)

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

[This message was edited by Pixie Dust on Oct. 31, 2003 at 04:02 PM.]

nhwr
Oct. 31, 2003, 01:32 PM
Ok you guys, let me say something here!

I am not trying to tell y'all how to ride your jumpers,lol. I am way to too chicken$h!+ to put my money where my mouth is on that one. Truly I love to watch horses jump and I'm in awe of what you guys do http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif I am asking questions because 1) I am curious and wondering exactly how much overlap there is in these disciplines and 2) I can't ride for another week and I freely admit I have too much time on my hands at the moment http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think Pixe Dust is probably on to something. There comes a point in every upper level dressage horse's experience where if you take your seat off them, they don't get it. I mean we spend years training them to listen to it. They don't get it when its gone.

When you say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The brilliant ones tend to be the hot ones and by extension harder to handle. By the time a dressage rider is asking for similar explosive power from a dressage horse as one that is jumping, the double bridle is available. Past a certain point, it is mandatory for competition. Horses learn to respect the added authority of the double and though they can be and are schooled without it can be easier with and softer, quieter cues able to be used. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that is a little misleading about how a double bridle should be used in dressage. You don't use it for control, it is for leverage to help elevate the poll. Riding off the curb is considered a major fault. And you can't compete with it until you have demonstrated that the proper foundation for collection has been established in a snaffle. About explosive phase with dressage horses, that usually comes up pretty quickly. The hot one can always be hot. Just like with jumpers that doesn't get trained out of them, it is their personality. But if you don't get their co-operation early on (like at training level) the average rider will never get to the point where a double is mandatory (Prix St. Georges and above).

Medievalist, very nice photo BTW

[This message was edited by nhwr on Oct. 31, 2003 at 03:58 PM.]

Justin
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:00 PM
Wow, Didi sure is one sexy beast! What a stud muffin! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Madeline
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bigbay:
Does anyone know of any jumpers that go in a double-bridle? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Just curious....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Joy Slater, who rides High Amateurs quite successfully, has a horse that goes in one.

madeline

Madeline
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So again, should a jumper *really* be as calm and obedient as a dressage horse in the heat of a galloping, turning jumpoff where the horse is not "on the bit" and engaged every step of the way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about calm, but obedient, on the bit and engaged are mandatory for upper level success.

madeline

Black Market Radio
Oct. 31, 2003, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
LGW - and thats a FRIED turkey leg thank you!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you don't mean fried MOOSE leg???

Those responsible for the credits have been sacked.

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Black Market Radio
Oct. 31, 2003, 08:08 PM
Ahhh!!!! Yes! I killed the thread!!!!!

Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!'
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!

Ineptly
Nov. 2, 2003, 02:39 PM
Not to pick on medaevilist or anything, but what is it about wearing a helmet that nakes people think they can ride with there eyes closed? This is the part of the helmet debate that really grinds my beans. People put on a helmet, then they start doing dressage, then they stare at there hands while theier riding, and eventually ride with there eyes closed. I say STOP THE INSANITY!!!

easyjumper1
Nov. 2, 2003, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog:
Ahhh!!!! Yes! I killed the thread!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you didn't. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif After Indepthly's post, this thread has at least got potential for another 6 pages http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Silk
Nov. 2, 2003, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Indepthly:
Not to pick on medaevilist or anything, but what is it about wearing a helmet that nakes people think they can ride with there eyes closed? This is the part of the helmet debate that really grinds my beans. People put on a helmet, then they start doing dressage, then they stare at there hands while theier riding, and eventually ride with there eyes closed. I say STOP THE INSANITY!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PLEASE...before you critique medievelist's helmet style, learn the proper use of their, there and they're! (and thier)http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'll comment on another's style only when I can:
1) actually use a double bridle
2)jump a fence that is over 2'6"

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

Medievalist
Nov. 2, 2003, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Indepthly:
Not to pick on medaevilist or anything, but what is it about wearing a helmet that nakes people think they can ride with there eyes closed? This is the part of the helmet debate that really grinds my beans. People put on a helmet, then they start doing dressage, then they stare at there hands while theier riding, and eventually ride with there eyes closed. I say STOP THE INSANITY!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
It's because I'm such a good rider http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif that I don't need my eyes anymore. Besides, I told the horse before the class what the course was...that way he knows where he's going even if my eyes are closed.

Bold as black type font, baby!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Kachoo
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:23 PM
I shall now copy and paste what I wrote on a not-too-long-ago bit thread, largely because someone asked about what the Euros use but also due to the fact that the reply seems to fit so nicely here too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. I don't know if the people listed below still ride in the same stuff, as the article is no longer recent:

Partly because I am a weenie, and partly because I am lazy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, I'm not going to get involved in the debate that's been raging through much of this thread. I am going to respond to the first post, however, which I took as something of a vent to the tune of, "Why do people give me so much grief because I ride in a bit that's considered harsh?"

My dear, trust me, over time, you will find that it is truly pointless to address this issue, because as with the virtues and/or evils of lunging and other such things, everybody you talk to about it will have a different opinion, and as you've probably already noticed, you will die of old age before you see any group of horsepeople come to some sort of an agreement on this topic. So okay, most of us compete at a low to moderate level - what the heck do we know, right? Surely, there must be SOMEONE who has the right answer!

Nope. I just read an article called "Gebisskontrolle" (Bit Control) in my favorite German publication, "St. Georg" a couple of months ago, and it drove home the point mentioned above. Interviewed in this article were a number of famous German jumper riders, a number of whom are or at one time were in the world top ten. Let me summarize it for you:

Otto Becker: At home, he rides most of his horses in a simple jointed snaffle, but at shows, he uses sharper bits as required by the needs of each horse. Cento wears a hackabit.

Mylene Diedrichsmeier: Rides her jumper Clover in a pelham, at home or at the shows.

Holger Wulschner, Lars Nieberg, and Markus Ehning: All try their darndest to ride every horse in the simplest bit possible - normally some sort of snaffle. Even in competition.

Franke Sloothaak makes a statement some would consider outrageous: "Kein Gebiss ist zu scharf," which translates directly to *gasp* "No bit is too sharp."

The only consensus between them seems to be that if you're going to use a "harsher" bit, be damn well sure that you can use it skillfully.

And really what's the point of arguing about it, anyway? In the end, each and every one of us is going to write down our own opinion and think, "Geez, I am the ONLY ONE on this board who knows what I'm talking about!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

Medievalist
Nov. 2, 2003, 08:28 PM
Kachoo! I've partied with all the JM Nicolas riders, including your friend I think! I have a good friend who grooms for Olivier Guillon and another who rides for Godignon, and I always am finding myself at other barns's strange parties (where I usually got the "Oh you are an American? Why do you only own one horse? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

Freakish 2 degrees of separation between Kachoo and Medievalist....

ummmm yeah. I totally need someone to do these grad school admissions essays for me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Kachoo
Nov. 2, 2003, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
Kachoo! I've partied with all the JM Nicolas riders, including your friend I think! I have a good friend who grooms for Olivier Guillon and another who rides for Godignon, and I always am finding myself at other barns's strange parties (where I usually got the "Oh you are an American? Why do you only own one horse? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

Freakish 2 degrees of separation between Kachoo and Medievalist....

_ummmm yeah. I totally need someone to do these grad school admissions essays for me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
http://www.eii.fr/houssaye_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Freakish, indeed! Qabs (or, as the rest of the world knows him, Qabil Ambak) is pretty distinguishable in a crowd - he's really, really skinny, Malay, and incredibly shy. A most delightful rider, though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

And that photo you posted of yourself and Didi is just fantabulous - where the heck can I find a beast with that front end???

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

Medievalist
Nov. 2, 2003, 10:27 PM
I think it must have been him that I met....he only spoke english, no french and was shy. The guy from Martinique got him really sick from his nice Martinique rum http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Great rider though. He was riding some spectacular horse of JM's when they came and schooled at our place. The horse was a nutcase and he was jumping enormous jumps anyways http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think that photo is funny because I look like crap but the horse looks like a million bucks. Yay Didi! Just gotta find some shows to do...

ummmm yeah. I totally need someone to do these grad school admissions essays for me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

Nitro's Mommy
Nov. 2, 2003, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kachoo:

And really what's the point of arguing about it, anyway? In the end, each and every one of us is going to write down our own opinion and think, "Geez, I am the ONLY ONE on this board who knows what I'm talking about!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN SISTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses." --some country song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wanderlust
Nov. 2, 2003, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So again, should a jumper *really* be as calm and obedient as a dressage horse in the heat of a galloping, turning jumpoff where the horse is not "on the bit" and engaged every step of the way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about calm, but obedient, on the bit and engaged are mandatory for upper level success.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummm, madeline, are you for real? I can assure you that as horses gallop around a high A/O or grand prix jump field between fences, they ARE NOT on the bit or engaged in the dressage sense of the words.

But sure, as I watched the winner of the Menlo Grand Prix give his horse his head and chase him in full gallop from one end of the field to the other, he was certainly engaged and on the bit. Just as he was when he was WAY above the bit coming to each fence. As were most of them. But sure, upper level jumpers run around the jump field on the bit and engaged every step of the way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

El Grande Stimpendo
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:26 AM
Kudos to Silk for sticking up for her friend Medievalist.

Silk
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timothy Hay:
Kudos to Silk for sticking up for her friend Medievalist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a friend. I'm just impressed with his/her horse. Was your response supposed to be sarcastic?

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

ESG
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Tally:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So again, should a jumper *really* be as calm and obedient as a dressage horse in the heat of a galloping, turning jumpoff where the horse is not "on the bit" and engaged every step of the way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about calm, but obedient, on the bit and engaged are mandatory for upper level success.

madeline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummm, madeline, are you for real? I can assure you that as horses gallop around a high A/O or grand prix jump field between fences, they ARE NOT on the bit or engaged in the dressage sense of the words.

But sure, as I watched the winner of the Menlo Grand Prix give his horse his head and chase him in full gallop from one end of the field to the other, he was certainly engaged and on the bit. Just as he was when he was WAY above the bit coming to each fence. As were most of them. But sure, upper level jumpers run around the jump field on the bit and engaged every step of the way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm sure madeline didn't mean to convey that a GP jumper goes around in the same frame as a GP dressage horse, especially in a jump-off. What I got from her post is that the same BASICS are needed, as a GP jumper needs to be able to get his haunches under and elevate his forehand just as a dressage horse does - on demand. All you have to do is watch the top class riders set their horses up for a single vertical out in the middle of nowhere and you'll see the rider's seat come down, the legs go on, the hands check and the horse's back end come further under its body. And it's a heck of a lot easier to do a rollback (close relative of a canter pirouette) between fences (to save those precious few seconds in a jump-off) when the horse is broke enough to be put on its haunches at a couple strides' preparation. So yes, upper level jumpers DO "run around the field on the bit and engaged", or at least the top ones do. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ketch
Nov. 3, 2003, 06:52 AM
Why do you always write in italics?

ESG
Nov. 3, 2003, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Betty Ford:
_Why do you always write in italics?_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_______________________________________________

First of all, I don't. Secondly, when replying to a quote, it keeps me from having to put stupid lines like this above my post to differentiate it from the original post. Sorry for any confusion....................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

CuteHunter
Nov. 3, 2003, 11:07 AM
Wow- I stayed out of this thread for a long time but really- who cares if ESG writes in Italics- it actually makes it easier to see what points are hers/his and what points were made by another poster.

Now personally, I think that there is a right bit for each horse and it isnt always a snaffle. I didnt take Zoef's original post to mean that she cant ride, or that her horse isnt broke or that her trainer is bad. I took it how I think she meant it- lightly, joking about how strong some horses can be.

Just because I dont agree with ESG or Madeleine doesnt mean I need to critizize stupid things such as how they structure their posts. While you might think are making a point by needlessly critizizing people you disagree with, you acutally make yourself seem less intelligent and thus take away from your own point.

* * * * * * * * * *
Another Perfect Kappa Rush!!

Ketch
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:16 PM
You actually make yourself seem less intelligent by making your signature line "Another perfect Kappa Rush." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Aside from that, I criticized ESG's font choice because it is distracting and actually takes away from the points SHE is trying to make. To most people (or at least all the folks with whom I've been e-mailing about this thread) her tone seems condescending and preachy, and the italics emphasize this.

caffeinated
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuteHunter:
Wow- I stayed out of this thread for a long time but really- who cares if ESG writes in Italics- it actually makes it easier to see what points are hers/his and what points were made by another poster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could it get any easier? The little "quotey" button puts in all the lines. I've never had trouble discerning who said what before, and find all-italics almost as annoying as all caps. Not that it was the main point of this thread, but since the main point has been so thoroughly beaten, flogged, flamed, and mercilessly tortured, I figured I may as well join in on this particular little side-note...

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Ketch
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:30 PM
Thank you, caffeinated. Now back to tossing back some bourbon . . . (and you all thought Betty Ford was in recovery http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

wanderlust
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:36 PM
Good lord, ESG, is there anything you don't know everything about? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

good booie
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:45 PM
Where is that darn toungue clamping icon when you need it??

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

eclipse
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:49 PM
Wow, what a dull world we'd live in if we all agreed on everything!! Now this thread will definatly die because I am a thread killer....more quiche & salad anyone?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Chaos, panic and disorder ... my work here is done"

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Nov. 3, 2003, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Betty Ford:
You actually make yourself seem less intelligent by making your signature line "Another perfect Kappa Rush." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Aside from that, I criticized ESG's font choice because it is distracting and actually takes away from the points SHE is trying to make. To most people (or at least all the folks with whom I've been e-mailing about this thread) her tone seems condescending and preachy, and the italics emphasize this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alrighty now...this is the H/J board, not the off-topic board...so we won't start on sororities, because I believe the last person that mentioned any thing of the Greek nature got flamed way past the capacities of their flame suit- however- what CuteHunter said wasn't personally attacking anything or anyone, and while I agree that it was rather pointless, and only served to continue beating the rather dead animal that this post SHOULD be, there was ABSOLUTELY no reason to demean her intelligence simply because she is in a sorority, and states so in in her signature. If you would like to call her post somewhat redundant, fine with me :-) But if you're just bitter from a missed opportunity to wear letters in college, keep it to yourself :-) Maybe you should spend less time e-mailing people about this thread, and more time dabbling in extra curriculars.
Oh, and for the record...I find ESG's posts to be equally preachy, pretentious, and assuming, and the italics make my eyes bleed- I'm simply pissed that you insulted sororities when there was absoultely no reason to! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

good booie
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:04 PM
hey hewey, get my e-mail?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Nov. 3, 2003, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by good booie:
hey hewey, get my e-mail?

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!

Proud member of Team Barefoot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep yep! I am actually in the process of returning it as I am typing this...my roomate, a dear friend of mine, is EXTREMELY cheap...therefore, we have no cable- on our TV or our computer. Call me spoiled, but I just do not have the mental capacity to deal with slow connections on dial up- when it takes 10 minutes to pull up one single web page, I just find that I'd rather drive the 20 minutes home to my parents house to use the computer, so I barely use mine in my apartment. Soon I think I'm just going to have to start forking over the money to get it on my own... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Madeline
Nov. 3, 2003, 02:33 PM
You know, this thread started to have some substantive discussion intil the "in crowd" clique intentionally flooded it with crap. Now They're talking about dial -up service and sororities?

Really, kiddies, GROW UP!

madeline
Cranky Old Broad

Pocket Pony
Nov. 3, 2003, 02:48 PM
So who is in the "in crowd" - I've always wanted to know...clearly, I am not... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

ESG
Nov. 3, 2003, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Tally:
Good lord, ESG, is there anything you don't know everything about? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. Lots. How about you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif