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Himbo
Aug. 11, 2003, 02:43 PM
Ok this is just my opinion but I think this fever thing is getting a bit blown out of preportion. When I worked for Lee Jolley if we raced a horse on a very hot day their temps were taken every other hr. and 101.2 was not a cause for calling the vet and throwing the horse on antibiotics as Lee's opinion was that as long as the horse did not go off his feed and acted otherwise ok-HE WAS OK, after all their temps are naturally going to be slightly elevated in the heat and it was reported that Funny Cide never acted sick nor went off his feed even slightly. I'am thinking ole Tagg is using the "fever" as an excuse for the horses loss and maybe hes also looking for an excuse not to meet up with Empire Maker who not to take anything away from Funny Cide is in a lot of peoples opinion a better horse. I hope he does put him in the Travers to make it more interesting!

Himbo
Aug. 11, 2003, 02:43 PM
Ok this is just my opinion but I think this fever thing is getting a bit blown out of preportion. When I worked for Lee Jolley if we raced a horse on a very hot day their temps were taken every other hr. and 101.2 was not a cause for calling the vet and throwing the horse on antibiotics as Lee's opinion was that as long as the horse did not go off his feed and acted otherwise ok-HE WAS OK, after all their temps are naturally going to be slightly elevated in the heat and it was reported that Funny Cide never acted sick nor went off his feed even slightly. I'am thinking ole Tagg is using the "fever" as an excuse for the horses loss and maybe hes also looking for an excuse not to meet up with Empire Maker who not to take anything away from Funny Cide is in a lot of peoples opinion a better horse. I hope he does put him in the Travers to make it more interesting!

SaudiHunter
Aug. 11, 2003, 07:19 PM
That's cool you worked for LeRoy Jolley. When/where was that?

When I rubbed horses I remember we took the babies' temps a lot, and quite often they'd be around 101, and it was not cause for alarm.
I was wondering when Funny Cide was going to start again.

I hope he goes in the Travers too. Its about time!

"Vanitas vanitatum et omina vanitas"

Man O' War
Aug. 11, 2003, 08:13 PM
LEE-roy Jolley? <withhold opinion>
His father, Moody Jolley = jerk <keeping it mild>

I'll never forget or forgive that smug bastard (MJ, not LJ) crowing when Ruffian broke down, in the match race with Foolish Pleasure.

I will take the memory of that race to my grave.

Oh, and about the temp thing:

I'm quite sure Tagg knows all about the when/how/why variations of equine temp. fluctuations. And took all factors in consideration.

I don't believe he is the type of person, like some who "Boast-N-Whine" (B.Delp, B. Baffert, W. Lukas, etc.), who would make any excuse to save face.
If he was, he would have made a more "dramatic" one.

JMO.

[This message was edited by Man O' War on Aug. 11, 2003 at 11:24 PM.]

Xctrygirl
Aug. 11, 2003, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Man O' War:
I don't believe he is the type of person, like some who "Boast-N-Whine" (B.Delp, B. Baffert, W. Lukas, etc.), who would make any excuse to save face.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok may I ask if you know any of these trainers in person? Work for them? Work among them?

Since I know this crowd a bit and though lost races are hard to explain I would hardly call every statement they make after a lost race an "excuse." I especially am confused when you throw Bob in this group, when he will tell you straight to your face, if a horse was short or if the jock got it wrong. Or if he should of worked it differently.


Just really curious how well you know these people. And please don't take offense I just know you're a backsider. I don't know for whom or how long etc.

~Emily

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

DMK
Aug. 12, 2003, 04:29 AM
Yup, I'm not a fan of D. Wayne, but I pretty much think that Baffert or Lukas's horse just isn't all the horse that day, they pretty much owe up to it. Now you might not like D. Wayne's eternal arrogance or the fact tha tto Bob, life is a joke, but I never thought they ducked the truth in that regard.

As for Funny Cide's slight temp, yes, I have to say that it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Even 102 is reasonable for some horses post work. But every horse is his own animal, and if FC runs a lower temp normally, what might be 1 degree for another horse is 2 degrees for him. I have the same problem - my regular temp normally is below average, which explains why for years I couldn't understand why I felt like I had a low grade fever when it was within .2 of "normal." Then I took a baseline for grins and giggles one day, and low and behold, it made sense. When my temp is 99 it's way up for me and I feel down right ill.

But more likely I suspect Tagg is using the temp as an excuse. Not because he is ducking Empire Maker, but because something is wrong and he doesn't know exactly what just yet. EM might be the better horse in my eyes, but it was too obvious that wasn't the real FC running in the last race.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Two Toofs
Aug. 12, 2003, 04:50 AM
My first thought when hearing of the fever was that it wouldn't be that unusual for a horse to have a slightly elevated temp after running on a hot day.

However, both AP and TTimes reported that his temp was 102 the following morning. I do believe that is cause for a little TLC & rest to see what comes of it. I also seem to remember reading that they would wait a few days before drawing blood, etc. It all seems as it should be in my opinion.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Glimmerglass
Aug. 12, 2003, 08:48 AM
I respectfully disagree with suggestions of using the elevated temps as a crutch.

The fever is long gone and blood tests have been positive since Friday night. But the tracks at the Spa are a mess so getting a really good workout isn't there.

Today's paper: Times Union 8/12: " Funny Cide ready to get back to work" (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=159923&category=SPORTS&BCCode=&newsdate=8/12/2003)

From all that I've seen, Tagg and Smullen haven't made excuse one about his performance. Rather it's the media in their craving for something to print doing all the speculating. It will be Tagg's decision alone to either put Funny Cide in or not according to his condition right up until the last minute. He will use that time wisely and breeze him to see if the horse that won the Preakness by the 2nd greatest margin and the Derby by the 10th fastest time is back.

Personally I think the issue isn't physical but mental - you have to make certain that Funny Cide wants to win. A lot of the outcome rests with Jose in any race - hold him in check or let him get into the race immediately.

There is a chance that if he's not good to go, then there may be an option: DRF 8/12/03: "A richer derby could lure stars" (http://www.drf.com/news/article/48908.html) ready for the Travers then *maybe* an alternate could be the Pennsylvania Derby on Sept 1st.

Heather
Aug. 12, 2003, 11:14 AM
And if he ran the horse and something bad happenend then everybody would be screaming and yelling and jumping up and down that he ran a sick horse, the cruelty, etc. etc.

I fear Funny Cide and his connections can't win. They've gotten scant respect from racing insiders since the beginning, and probably too much respect form "the fans". The insider's will always be looking for a reason to prove he's not good enough, despite all the evidence to the contrary (sorry, Empire Maker will NEVER be as good in my book, because he skipped one leg of the triple crown--if was so superior, then he should have run all three legs--otherwise, he'll always be an also ran to me). And the "outsider" public will always believe he's better because they can find an excuse like being sick.

The horse is/was sick. He ran a hell of a race to finish third. Now why not let the people who see the bloody horse take care of him and make the best decisions for THE HORSE, and not accuse them of nefarious chicken hearted scheming.

DMK
Aug. 12, 2003, 11:39 AM
Sorry Heather, I can't agree with you on EM being less of a horse because he skipped the Preakness. Now you might argue that his connections are not as superior as the the FC connections because they opted to skip the Preakness, but best as I can tell Empire Maker is the horse he is, regardless of what races his connections enter him in. I won't diss him for skipping that race if it made sense to his people any more than I would diss FC's connections if they feel he isn't ready for the Travers.

And FC and his connections seem to be doing just fine in all regards. He's a gelding and his dam is deceased, so who cares if the breeding establishment isn't that wild about him (and I think a 500K Distorted Humor share goes a long way to putting paid to that notion). All that matters is that the viewing and betting public likes him, and I think they do.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Two Toofs
Aug. 12, 2003, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
He ran a hell of a race to finish third. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Onlyin racing can a horse purchased for mere pennies (relatively speaking) win the KY Derby, the Preakness, run 3rd in the Belmont all just weeks apart, then come back after a short layup and finish 3rd in a G1 with million dollar purse, be the TOP money earner in the country for the year to date, have over $2 million in earnings at age three and still be criticized! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Himbo
Aug. 12, 2003, 01:32 PM
Saudi I worked for Jolley in the 1980's at Belmont also worked for Joe Cantey,Red Terrell,and Charlie Whittingham for a short while. When I was with Jolley we were in Belmont,Saratoga,and then Ky for 6 weeks before going to Fla. I also worked for a Sandi Duboise in Camden SC for a winter breaking babies before I went back to the track for a short time. My opinion still stands with this Funny Cide "temp" and hope he goes in the Travers but even if he does not he will still meet up with EM sometime somewhere. I'am not dissing Funny Cide at all, I know Joe McMahon who bred and raised him very well and its a good shot in the arm for his business. The horse is galloping now so I'am thinking he will run if hes ok.

SaudiHunter
Aug. 12, 2003, 01:55 PM
Were you there when he had Mogambo by any chance?

"Vanitas vanitatum et omina vanitas"

Glimmerglass
Aug. 13, 2003, 07:20 AM
For those up at Spa today (Wed 8/13) it will be "Funny Cide Day" per the NYRA http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aside from being him being in the paddock in the late morning for the public to see, there were six people chosen from emails sent to Funny Cide's website selected to have breakfast with Jack Knowlton and have a special tour of the Nat'l Museum of Racing. A rather nice thing to do for the fans in all honesty and more like a marketing page taken from the fan-friendly NASCAR playbook.

Times Union 8/13: "This horse has his day, Fans get to see Funny Cide today at Saratoga track" (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=SPORTS&storyID=160231&BCCode=&newsdate=8/13/2003)

Please disregard the somewhat monumental error in the story that says: ".. their chance for an up-close-and-personal view of the Kentucky Derby and Belmont Stakes winner [sic] today.."

Ah, if only ...

Himbo
Aug. 13, 2003, 07:28 PM
Saudi Mogambo ws there when I was there but I only saw him briefly because at that time Jolley had 2 strings going. I did get to take care of Genuine Risk who was a really sweet mare to work! Temperance Hill was across the way from us in Belmont.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 14, 2003, 10:20 AM
By all accounts the fans, despite the rains, did show up to admire the big chestnut gelding and were not disappointed.

AP Photo - Funny Cide at Spa 8/13 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030813/168/4yu87.html)

AP Photo - Funny Cide and Robin Smullins (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030813/168/4ytua.html)

Excerpt

Spa crowd hobnobs with a hometown hero
Saratoga Springs -- Funny Cide's fans show their affection as they brave a deluge to see him

By STEPHANIE EARLS, Staff writer
Times Union, Thurs Aug 14, 2003 (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=160617)

Cameras flashed. A murmur swelled through the crowd. People rose on tiptoes in the mud, seeking visual confirmation.

"Is it him? Is it him?" 7-year-old Michaela McCormack babbled breathlessly while perched atop the fence surrounding the Saratoga Race Course paddock. She strained to see around her cousin Joey Deso's shoulder, searching for a glimpse of him above the crowd of journalists, track bigwigs and TV camera crews inside the circular sweep of fence.

"Fun-nee-cide, Fun-nee-cide," 8-year-old Deso clapped along as he chanted the name.

Himbo
Aug. 14, 2003, 12:13 PM
Tagg quote "Concerned about latest blood work being a hair off. The blood count is in the normal range but not where I would like it" Dr. Celeste Kunz head vet "Blood work is nothing to get excited about, saying its a hair off would not bother me at all". Blood work in the normal range,eating,drinking,temp normal----What is the problem?????????????????????????? Tagg needs to get over himself. I know hes not used to having a big time winning horse but jeez enough already!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Glimmerglass
Aug. 14, 2003, 12:59 PM
Himbo - the full quote was:

"It's just a hair off," Tagg said. "The blood count is in the normal range, but not exactly how I wanted it to be. If his blood count is good and he is acting right and eating good, then I will run him. If one of those things isn't right, then I won't run him. It's real simple."

I don't think his remark taken as a whole should be used to knock Tagg whatsoever. His best interest is Funny Cide being in top shape, short of that why put him in the race?

The owners are hands-off and he's run two lukewarm efforts after two exceptional ones. Taken as whole, I'd say if you aren't confident you've got the best horse he can be, then pass on it and go for the G1 Penn. Derby.

drifting cloud
Aug. 14, 2003, 04:29 PM
I had never heard of Barclay Tagg before Funny Cide won the Kentucky Derby, but I must say that I have nothing but respect for him. He seems to put the welfare of the horse first before anything else. That's the way it should be.

When I was reading "Seabiscuit", some of Tom Smith's training methods reminded me of things I have heard about Barclay Tagg's methods.

"There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - Will Rogers

Himbo
Aug. 15, 2003, 02:25 PM
Geez get over yourself Glimmer. I was commenting on how the horse is in every way in the normal ranges and how Tagg wants it to be better, how much more normal does he want him to be??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

haligator
Aug. 15, 2003, 04:25 PM
Hi All,
Just a few comments....

For the poster who mentioned they did not know much about Barclay Tagg, he's been around a long time and is very well-respected among his peers. Going back a bit, he was Frank Whiteley's assistant trainer for part of the time that Ruffian was in the barn. So, he had a hand in the making of one of the greatest fillies the world has ever known.

Also, with health and training issues, I never question a trainer I respect like Tagg. He knows the horse, he knows what is normal for the horse, and he has the horse's best interests in mind. He's in a no-win situation - if Funny Cide runs and isn't 100% and something happens to him, the media will be all over Tagg. If the horse doesn't run because in his heart of hearts he feels it is the best thing to do for the horse, everyone will say he is ducking Empire Maker.

I trust Tagg to do the right thing for the horse. I wish some other big name trainers were as cautious and concerned as Tagg. Sure, I want to see Funny Cide run in The Travers - but only if the horse is healthy and has gotten in enough training time before the race.

Gallop On!
Hallie McEvoy
Racing Dreams, LLC

Glimmerglass
Aug. 17, 2003, 04:47 PM
While I focusing on getting over myself as suggested by Himbo http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I did spy this in the Sunday paper (below) - it looks very unlikely for Funny Cide to run next Saturday at the Travers ...

Times Union 8/17: " Competition missing a star" (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=REGIONOTHER&storyID=161481&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/17/2003)

Himbo
Aug. 18, 2003, 01:53 PM
Yeah and the horse is still galloping,eating,blood count normal,defecating,etc all the things a healthy horse does and hes still not running him-hmmm

drifting cloud
Aug. 18, 2003, 04:19 PM
Himbo -- the articles I have read say that Funny Cide hasn't been eating all of his food (unusual for him). Barclay Tagg knows the horse. If he thinks there is something a little off, I salute him for doing the right thing and not running him. He needs to be 100% to run against Empire Maker and the others.

"There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - Will Rogers

Himbo
Aug. 18, 2003, 06:00 PM
The horse has been eating all of his food according to the head vet at the track so I don't know where you are getting your info from. Tagg also made an interesting comment on WTEN Channel 13 that "It's unlikely the horse will run unless something happens to someone" Now why would the horse run if someone drops out and who would this someone be that Tagg would run Funny Cide if they dropped out???? Sorry been around too long at the track to not think Tagg is holding the horse back because of the previous disappointing race. If the vets are saying the horse is within normal range on everything and even Tagg says the blood etc. is normal and then come out with a comment like he did on the news then I have to think Tagg does not want to meet up with certain horses right yet. I live in Saratoga and alot of my friends are still working the backstretch and think its Tagg playing chicken.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2003, 07:47 PM
Well, the "is he or isn't he" question certainly does keep the press going. The latest suggests "maybe" to the question of entering (not necessarily racing) - although that isn't from Tagg:

Daily Racing Form 8/18: "Funny Cide may enter" (http://www.drf.com/sar/2003/news.html#story3)

To the question of his health, quote, "The most recent blood test on Funny Cide revealed a slightly elevated white blood count."

drifting cloud
Aug. 19, 2003, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The horse has been eating all of his food according to the head vet at the track so I don't know where you are getting your info from.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I read that in an article on the Blood-Horse website and in another article somewhere else (can't remember where). The exact quote is "Tagg said this week that he didn't like the results of a blood test and that the horse hasn't been eating all his food." You can see the whole article right here (http://racing.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=17555)

Why are you convinced that there is a Funny Cide conspiracy theory?

"There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - Will Rogers

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2003, 07:30 AM
drifting cloud I agree - why would anyone question Tagg's responses as games when he's not courting the media and would simply prefer, when he absolutely has to, then make the final call 'yes' or 'no'?

Times Union 8/19 "Funny Cide remains in limbo" (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?category=SPORTS&storyID=161961&BCCode=&newsdate=8/19/2003)

Quote: "He looked a little better (Monday); he is getting a little better each day," Tagg said. "I know all you guys are thinking I am trying to be evasive, but I really don't know the answer."

The press is clearly trying to pump up the race knowing Funny Cide news sells, so to make it seem like Tagg is waffling at least keeps the story alive. Himbo, is someone suggesting that he's trying to get a low weight assignment out of pity?

Barclay said he was waiting on among other things to see who was actually going to race or drop out. Per published reports, Congrats and Dynever are expected to not race after all. Thus its only a field of 5 for almost certain - not including Funny Cide.

Himbo
Aug. 19, 2003, 02:10 PM
Maybe Iam convinced because Tagg said in the Times Union "I'am going to wait till the last minute because you never know whos not going to show up" "We dont want to put this horse out on the track and get him beat" "he is pretty healthy but you have to be 100% to beat the Empire Makers" Now why would you not think the man does not want to go against Empire Maker after all those quotes??? Pretty healthy and according to the vets at the track -hes never been off his feed,blood counts are normal,temp is normal geez people how much more normal do you want the horse. Slightly elevated white cell but still in the normal range. Tagg knows Empire Maker is the better horse,hes no dummy.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2003, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Himbo:
Now why would you not think the man does not want to go against Empire Maker after all those quotes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From this afternoon: Thoroughbred Times 8/19: "Funny Cide breezes at Saratoga, but Travers Start Still Unlikely" (http://thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=36848&subsec=2)

"I’m not anxious to meet Empire Maker or any of the horses, with the problems he’s had," Tagg said. "It’s not Saturday yet."

[snip]

Tagg: "He’s had one little half-mile work since the Haskell and he’s supposed to run against the best horses in the world?"

[snip]

Since there is a virus circulating through the Saratoga backstretch, Tagg said he wants to keep Funny Cide’s Travers options open in case any race contenders (Empire Maker, Sky Mesa, Strong Hope, Ten Most Wanted, and Wild and Wicked) drop out.

buryinghill1
Aug. 19, 2003, 03:15 PM
Just watch Robin's face. When she smiles around FC she knows he's hot...he's fast...
When she's frowny he runs badly. She knows that horse so well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Himbo
Aug. 19, 2003, 06:27 PM
Problems hes had??? Slightly elevated temp on a very hot,humid day,normal blood work,blah blah if only all horses had those problems we would not need vets!!! Head vet at the track even said his "problems" were nothing to get excited about. Tagg is the one with the problem, he does not want to run against Empire Maker who would have won his last start if he had made his bid a little sooner and if the amt. of works the horse has got in is the worry don't run him even if EM drops out FC would still have to run around that race track and if he was not fit why would you chance that even against lesser horses??????? Get your heads out of your butts people Tagg is playing with all of ya. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2003, 07:55 PM
Himbo, I'm begining to think you are really Bobby Frankel just using an altar http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kidding aside, at the end of the day isn't this somewhat just all part of the silly prelude to a big match that is part of racing? I'd love Funny Cide to race if he is physically and mentally ready. That horse without being romantic or sentimental beat Empire Maker fair and square in the Derby and would've done the same on the fast track at the Preakness had Bobby entered him.

If that same horse for those two legs was back again then betting on Funny Cide for a Travers win would be a no brainer. Obviously that same well conditioned and mentally fit horse doesn't appear to be quite here just yet. By Saturday? Well, like Tagg has been saying just "maybe".

Two Toofs
Aug. 20, 2003, 03:04 AM
Let's just say for the sake of argument that FC's connections don't want to run against Empire Maker because they don't think they can out run him. What's the problem? Isn't it a trainer's job to run a horse where he has the best possibility of winning?

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

Ash
Aug. 20, 2003, 06:58 AM
Himbo-what is so hard for you to understand?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif FC's trainer doesn't think he is 'quite right' and feels he needs his horse to be 100% to beat Empire Maker (whom we all KNOW he beat in the Derby when he was 100%)

NO ONE knows a horse quite like the trainer/rider, so what may seem normal for one horse can be abnormal for another. I think Tagg is not only a great trainer but pretty damn intelligent as well! Can't quite figure out why you are having such a hard time "grasping" this....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

A Splash of Color
Aug. 20, 2003, 10:29 AM
from The Blood Horse:

"Funny Cide Among Eight Entered For Travers
by Steve Haskin
Date Posted: 8/20/03 12:39:31 PM
Last Updated: 8/20/03 1:17:54 PM

A field of eight passed the entry box Wednesday morning for the $1 million Travers Stakes. How many will run is a another story. The big news was Funny Cide entering after two weeks of "doubtfuls" and "highly unlikelys," from trainer Barclay Tagg.

The other big story was Bobby Frankel entering both Empire Maker and Peace Rules, although only one will run. Unless something happens to Empire Maker, Peace Rules will run in the Sept. 1 Pennsylvania Derby. Although many were surprised to see Funny Cide show up in the entries, they shouldn't have been."

Read the entire article here (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=17593). Should be a good race.

Here's the complete Travers field:

1-- Congrats (Mike Luzzi, 15-1)
2-- Strong Hope (John Velazquez, 4-1)
3A-- Peace Rules (Jerry Bailey, 8-5)
4-- Ten Most Wanted (Pat Day, 6-1)
5A-- Empire Maker (Jerry Bailey, 8-5)
6-- Wild and Wicked (Shane Sellers, 20-1)
7-- Funny Cide (Jose Santos, 3-1)
8-- Sky Mesa (Edgar Prado, 4-1)

Go Sackatogians!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Joan S.
Photo Albums (http://community.webshots.com/user/jsflwr)

DMK
Aug. 20, 2003, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
I'd love Funny Cide to race if he is physically and mentally ready. That horse without being romantic or sentimental beat Empire Maker fair and square in the Derby and would've done the same on the fast track at the Preakness had Bobby entered him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but so far the only two times these two horses have met up AND their trainers were not hanging crepe about the physical condition of their horses prior to the race happened to be in the Wood and the Belmont. Frankel was on the record about his concerns with the foot bruise before the Derby. Now maybe he was overstating the case, but if you are going to give Tagg credit for saying FC isn't right, I think you need to belly up to the bar and give Frankel credit for the same.

And I confess, I do get a grin about everyone running around saying FC isn't ready to race, thank goodness Tagg is doing the right thing for the horse, but Frankel was just about burned in effigy for following the same protocols when opting to not run in the Preakness.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Ash
Aug. 20, 2003, 11:36 AM
So Empire Maker sat out the Preakness because of his stone bruise? You mean the SAME stone bruise he had BEFORE he ran in the Derby? Seems to me if Frankel was that concerned about it he wouldn't have run the Derby. Do you think Empire Maker would have sat out the Preakness if he had won the Derby? Doubtful! I'm not buying it....

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

DMK
Aug. 20, 2003, 12:02 PM
No, Ash, I don't think EM sat out the Preakness because of the stone bruise, and I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I said Frankel hung crepe in regards to the stone bruise prior to the Derby.

I do think EM sat out the Preakness because Frankel (by his own admission) didn't have him fit enough to run in the Derby, and once that race was lost, he did the Very Smart Thing and went back to training the horse to run the next race (instead of training the horse to run the next three races). And since he was doing the Very Smart Thing AND there was no triple crown at stake, he opted to point him to the race that was the real jewel in a potential sire's crown. And I think Tagg is doing the Very Smart Thing by keeping his horse out of the Travers if he thinks he doesn't have a real shot at winning, regardless of the reason why.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Ash
Aug. 20, 2003, 12:48 PM
Whoa DMK! I wasn't suggesting that you said Empire Maker sat out the Preakness due to a bruised foot (and I am sorry if I made it sound that way) I was referring to this article:

Frankel Finally Wins Triple Crown Race
BETH HARRIS
Associated Press

NEW YORK - It took 37 years, a couple of near-misses and a lot of patience until trainer Bobby Frankel won his first Triple Crown race.

Empire Maker had let him down by finishing second to Funny Cide in the Kentucky Derby. Then the colt couldn't run in the Preakness because of a bruised foot.

So Frankel had five weeks until the Belmont Stakes. He quietly trained Empire Maker and listened to the growing chorus of praise for Funny Cide, who won the Preakness.


and many others like it who said exactly that

"Empire Maker had let him down by finishing second to Funny Cide in the Kentucky Derby. Then the colt couldn't run in the Preakness because of a bruised foot."

So, based on what I read and the whole uproar about the bruised foot before and after the Derby, I think something is a little "off" so to speak.....

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

[This message was edited by Ash on Aug. 20, 2003 at 03:58 PM.]

DMK
Aug. 20, 2003, 01:05 PM
No problem Ash...

I remember reading some of that stuff as well, but when a reporter stringing for the AP speaks about racing issues... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Besides, every time I saw direct quotes from Frankel, he really just commented on how he didn't get the job done, condition-wise and was going to fix that before the colt ran again. And who knows? Maybe he couldn't fit the horse up as well as he liked because of the foot bruise. I don't think Frankel ever offered that as an excuse, but hey, we will never know...

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Ash
Aug. 20, 2003, 01:16 PM
You are right DMK. There is such much PR involved with these big races that you never know if the trainer is saying what really happened, or how they want everyone to think it happened. Guess we will never know!

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

Glimmerglass
Aug. 20, 2003, 01:17 PM
This is the first article I've seen that suggested anything about Empire Maker not running in the Travers - and of course Bobby says its 100% false.

New York Post 8/20/03 "'Funny' Stuff Continues" (http://www.nypost.com/sports/39167.htm)

If Funny Cide does race he looks to be going up against Frankel's arsonal:

Frankel, speculating on the source of whispers that Empire Maker might not run, said, "I did walk him an extra day after he worked [Saturday], but I do that all the time. He's fine right now. I think he'll be 4-5, maybe lower. But I might enter [Haskell winner] Peace Rules as a back-up."

Himbo
Aug. 20, 2003, 01:32 PM
If Fc is not quite 100% why would you chance running him at all. Tagg is playing the waiting game to see what Frankel will do. FC is a nice horse but I put him in the same class as Silver Charm-if you went by his breeding he should not be able to run as fast nor as far as he does. Empire Maker is the better horse in more ways than one-Class breeding,better conformation,and he can run further than FC. I owned Silver Charms 1/2 sister (Club Car Lady) and if you looked at that pedigree you would have sold her for $1500 like I did and cried after the people who bought her got offered 100 grand after he won the Derby so it goes to show you luck has a lot to do with things http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Glimmerglass
Aug. 20, 2003, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Himbo:
Empire Maker is the better horse in more ways than one-Class breeding,better conformation,and he can run further than FC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Himbo, those are fighting words http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Funny Cide may be from the wrong side of the Mason Dixon line, he isn't Secretariat or a Phar Lap but he has heart, power, and personality in an era where a lot of fast horses with great confirmation are here today, gone tomorrow! He took the Derby in the 10th fastest time ever - that isn't a fluke.

I see the score between the two as 1 - 1, which puts Empire Maker no further ahead of Funncy Cide. Now I truly do hope FC does do the Travers and the big gelding takes the win!!

drifting cloud
Aug. 20, 2003, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If Fc is not quite 100% why would you chance running him at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Himbo, this is what we Tagg supporters have been saying!! I guess the difference is that we believe Tagg when he says FC might be a little off, and you don't believe him.

Empire Maker looked very strong in the Belmont and in his last race. Maybe he has improved enough that he is better than Funny Cide now (but FC was sure better on Derby day and I don't think EM would have beaten him in the Preakness either). We won't find out who is the better horse now until they run against each other again (with both of them at 100% and peaking).

"There are three kinds of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - Will Rogers

Glimmerglass
Aug. 20, 2003, 03:13 PM
Post positions, from the inside out, as reported by the Associated Press:

1 - Congrats (Mike Luzzi, 15-1)
2 - Strong Hope (John Velazquez, 4-1)
3 - Peace Rules (Bailey, 8-5)
4 - Ten Most Wanted (Pat Day, 6-1)
5 - Empire Maker (Bailey, 8-5)
6 - Wild and Wicked (Shane Sellers, 20-1)
7 - Funny Cide (Jose Santos, 3-1)
8 - Sky Mesa (Edgar Prado, 4-1)

Himbo
Aug. 20, 2003, 07:08 PM
The only problem EM might have in the Travers is that it might not be a long enough race for him but I still stand by my opinion that hes the better horse, I predicted he would beat FC in the Belmont now I hope he takes the Travers. I think I'am so not keen on jumping on the Fc band wagon because I grew up watching horses like Secretariet,Alydar,Affirmed,Ruffian,etc run so I really dont see what the big deal is with this horse. What exactly did he do that Silver Charm did not do, he also won 2 legs of the Triple Crown? Is it because hes a NY bred?? I understand completely why Tagg does not want to run him- if the horse keeps losing the people may not want to buy all the Funny Cide beer,t shirts,etc and there goes all that extra $$. FC is a good horse but a great horse nope not yet hes got a long ways to go to be called great but since hes a gelding theres hope just remember John Henry and Forego they did not become great until they were older. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glimmerglass
Aug. 20, 2003, 10:54 PM
Ah, but Himbo who is playing games now .. would it be Bobby Frankel himself? Now he says that Empire Maker is not 100% - he's coughing, has a little mucus in his lungs and if he's scratched for the Travers then he'll do the PA Derby.

Is he really less than 100%? Or is this just a ploy to draw Tagg into keeping FC in the Travers hoping a "weakened" EM can be more easily beat - all the while EM's at peak strength ... mind games galore.

DRF 8/21: "'Empire' coughs and field expands" (http://www.drf.com/sar/2003/news.html)

Funny Cide's official entry in this race at least means 60,000 + fans in those seats vs. 40,000 if it was just Empire Maker and the "also rans".

Ash
Aug. 21, 2003, 10:43 AM
Himbo-
Why do you think Empire Maker didn't run in the Preakness? Do you think he would have run if FC didn't beat him in the Derby?

Also, what time is the race on Saturday and on what channel? Thanks!

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

Glimmerglass
Aug. 21, 2003, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:

Also, what time is the race on Saturday and on what channel? Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESPN (not the Duce) Saturday 5 -7 PM EST; the actual race I understand has a post time of 6:25 pm EST which was pushed back from earlier last week.

EPSN Travers Stakes Coverage Details (http://espn.go.com/horse/2003/0212/1507940.html)

Himbo
Aug. 21, 2003, 01:36 PM
Frankel said he did not have EM ready for the Preakness and if you remember EM went into the derby with a quarter crack which is like you or I running with sneakers on with a bad hangnail but who really knows what the truth is I just hope the two duke it out in the Travers and remember Saratoga is the graveyard of Champions so one of the "lesser" horses could win the whole shabang and make everyone look like an idiot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DMK
Aug. 21, 2003, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:
Do you think he would have run if FC didn't beat him in the Derby?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ash, you have to admit, that is a an almost pointless question. I mean of course you run your horse in the Preakness if he won the Derby, but once he doesn't win the derby and you know you have a distance horse, then why opt for the shorter race and those Pimlico turns?

Especially when in the big scheme of things, if the horse comes in 2nd in the Derby, wins the Wood, Belmont, Travers, and a BC race, then he pretty much has the votes for the Eclipse (mind you, that is still a tall order).

Himbo, No kidding about Saratoga!

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

DMK
Aug. 21, 2003, 01:39 PM
OK, actually I have to say that it isn't a given that you run your horse in the Preakness if you win the Derby. We have Spend A Buck's connections to thank for that precedent. But the Cherry Hill Mile is no longer a threat to Triple Crown stake money... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

Glimmerglass
Aug. 21, 2003, 02:31 PM
Daily Racing Form 8/21 late edition "Empire Maker doubtful for Travers" (http://www.drf.com/news/article/49097.html)

excerpt: "Belmont Stakes winner Empire Maker will probably be scratched from Saturday's $1 million Travers Stakes, trainer Bobby Frankel said Thursday morning."

Linny
Aug. 21, 2003, 02:58 PM
Peace Rules and Empire Maker both have Bailey named so one HAS to scratch. I was told today by "someone who ought to know" that PR will go. The person who told me has ridden EM on many occassions and is credible.

If EM scratches, there is a greater chance that FC will run.

Glimmerglass the score between EM and FC is is 2-1 in EM's favor. EM won the Wood Memorial and the Belmont while FC won the Derby over him.

I'm on the Saratoga backstretch daily and the saga of the Travers has been the biggest topic of conversation for over a week. There are more people betting on who is running than who is going to win.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Linny
Aug. 21, 2003, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Himbo:
Frankel said he did not have EM ready for the Preakness and if you remember EM went into the derby with a quarter crack which is like you or I running with sneakers on with a bad hangnail but who really knows what the truth is I just hope the two duke it out in the Travers and remember Saratoga is the graveyard of Champions so one of the "lesser" horses could win the whole shabang and make everyone look like an idiot. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how Frankel claimed EM wasn't "ready" for the Preakness when prior to the Derby he claimed he was a lock for the Triple Crown.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Ash
Aug. 22, 2003, 07:35 AM
Geez! To someone like me, who obviously knows very little about racing, this is confusing!! I thought everyone wanted to see a rematch between the 2 horses? I guess the trainers don't?

Linny-
Did FC and EM run against each other in the Wood Memorial? Was that before or after the Triple Crown races?

Thanks DMK- I guess you are right, it is a given. I don't know much about the differences in the tracks (footing, length etc) and I wasn't sure if you would go on to race in the Belmont if you thought your horse wasn't right in the Derby (even if he did win) But at that level I guess the stakes are so high you would take the risk. Also, did Spend a Buck win the Derby and not race in the Belmont? (See, I really don't know much about racing!)

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

Linny
Aug. 22, 2003, 09:08 AM
The Wood was the final Derby prep for EM and FC. EM won by about 1/2 length. FC was game, fighting back inside after being passed. many thought that it was an easy win for EM and that he was really easing up under the wire. I knew better and bet FC in the Derby, but not heavily. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

It looks like my "informant" was right, EM and FC are now BOTH out of the Travers.

Ash- Spend a Buck won the Derby then skipped the Preakness because he was eligible for a big bonus should he go to the Jersey Derby. He was not considered likely for the Belmont anyhow because he was a bleeder and Lasix was not permitted in NY at the time.

Racing fans like rivalries and rematches. Trainers usually don't. The old adage around the track is that you want to keep "yourself in the best of company and your horse in the worst" rings true. You want your horse in the easiest spots, all the better to bring home the money.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Himbo
Aug. 22, 2003, 12:58 PM
I'am soooooooooo disappointed those two horses are out now I will have to pick someone else to win the Travers. My friend called me last night and had been at the benefit party and heard Frankel telling everyone he was not running EM http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but there will be other races to meet up with Funny Cide I'am sure! I also talked to Joe McMahon this am and he was disappointed the two were out of the race but hes loving the Fc mania,the more the horse runs and wins the more valuable his momma becomes and the better for Joe!

Linny
Aug. 22, 2003, 01:42 PM
I had a friend tell me right after the Jim Dandy that he heard Frankel in a screaming fight with Terry Meyocks. One thing Frankel said was that there was NO WAY that EM would sdtart in the Travers. There is clearly some very heavy stuff going on behind the scenes. I don't dare venture a guess as to what they might be.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

Himbo
Aug. 22, 2003, 08:11 PM
Hmmmmm Linny wouldn't you love to find out the real story about all this stuff going on??? Frankel can be a real blow hard at times and it turns alot of people off to him. I had a friend that worked for him very briefly as a groom, I think she lasted 3 days before she went to the Lucas camp not so sure that move wasn't from pan to the fire!

horselips
Aug. 22, 2003, 08:32 PM
If what you're saying is correct, then both FC and EM can join the "weenie ranks" along side Vindication. AWA many others (dare I count, since this maddness started in the 70's)

But, should they (excluding FC, of course) not prove themselves at stud within 3-4 years, maybe they will ALL get "lucky", and be sold to (fill-in-yer-favorite) trans-continental area. Where, according to more "expert" posters, they will be treated as kings, and live untill their 30''s

Oh, wait. I forgot: This is 2003, and things are done differently now.
'WAY different.

After all; racing these days is ONLY about money-money-MONEY.

What the hell happened to the sport? When/How/Why did we ever let the money-marketers in charge? Who know NOTHING about horses, or the "sport" of racing?

&lt;getting off soap-box now: didn't mean to "take-over" thread. please excuse my vent&gt; or not




- 'lips
(the "original" barn fairy)

"The horse; he is stamping, his warm breath a'clouding:
But the Master of the house is far away..."

Jumphigh83
Aug. 23, 2003, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linny:
I had a friend tell me right after the Jim Dandy that he heard Frankel in a screaming fight with Terry Meyocks. One thing Frankel said was that there was NO WAY that EM would sdtart in the Travers. There is clearly some very heavy stuff going on behind the scenes. I don't dare venture a guess as to what they might be.

Resident racing historian
Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Linny...we BOTH know there were ALOT more eplitives in that conversation!! Every other word I think!! Frankel is a blow hard and playing a game..I seriously doubt the horse is "sick" I think Frankel is trying to make NY racing look sick and he is doing a great job at hurting the industry..not everyone likes to think of the game as all about $$ ...(it IS) alot of us LIKE the notion of a Seabiscuit, fairy tail racing industry....Hurting the track and the fans is a dangerous game and it WILL come back to bite the great Mr "F" on the butt...

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Jumphigh83
Aug. 23, 2003, 02:53 PM
Oh and Himbo, you done good dumping Club Foot...err Car Lady..who knows how many pages of the pedigree you would have to carry around just to FIND the BLACK TYPE! It would be like carrying around a NYC Phonebook!

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

Ash
Aug. 25, 2003, 09:37 AM
When will FC and EM meet again????

******************************
Momma Mia, here I go again....

Glimmerglass
Aug. 25, 2003, 10:07 AM
If not in some earlier match - like the Penn. Derby which is now doubtful - then it will be at Santa Anita in October for the Breeder's Cup Championship.