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Pirateer
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:18 PM
I've decided that my leg needs training. Its strong. I rode for like 2 weeks on the longe and on the flat w/o stirrups. Two point, sitting, posting, everything. Still...Swinging leg o/f.

I heard that my trainer said that he "wished he could tie my stirrups to my girth" (i think its a college liability thing). So I'm going to do it on my own. Or suggest it. Or something.

How exactly do I go about doing this? The, er...attaching? And with what? Yarn? Twine? Lead ropes?


Floppy Leg...icky! (http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=007S00DQ020043&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1)

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
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JstImgnPny
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:22 PM
Maybe it was just a saying. Like "i was it was physically possible to do that" bc tying your stirrups to your girth wont help your leg become any stronger....just more and more and more leg work!
BAREBACK DOES WONDERS!!!

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Sparky
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:22 PM
I'll probably get roasted for even trying to help you pirateer, but spur straps work the best. Shhhhhh!

enjoytheride
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:27 PM
There's this new british product (the same company that makes the flex boots) that ties your stirrups to the girth, but it uses some sort of safety release, maybe that would be better.

dogchushu
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:28 PM
Ummm... gulp... eek... {hangs head in shame} I resorted to this once just to get the feel of keeping my leg in one place.

I was kind of scared to do it though. So I cut some fat rubber bands into long strings and used them to tie my stirrups to the girth.
They broke pretty easily. Actually, that turned out to be a good thing because it was so easy to break them that I really had to concentrate on holding my leg steady.

Word to the wise--make sure you have a tall mounting block if you tie them up yourself. I ended up breaking a ton of rubber bands just trying to get on the darn horse!



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

CraZ4Horses
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:34 PM
I wouldn't recommend this at all. My old trainer did it to me and now my knees are permenantly messed up. It's not worht it. Bareback riding can fix it just as well.

Pirateer
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:37 PM
Well. We aren't allowed to ride bareback on the school horses....and my horse is in Alaska, not that I could even get on him bareback...

Anyway, my leg is plenty strong, but it just has bad habits that i want fixed.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

FrittSkritt
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:48 PM
I've seen bailing twine used... breaks easily in case you and your horse part ways. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


-KC

**************
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Kestrel
Oct. 6, 2003, 09:50 PM
If you decide to try this, use something that breaks easily - the challenge is to finish the ride with the yarn (or whatever) still intact. One strand of yarn will help you get the feel, but will definitely break before you get into trouble.

vxf111
Oct. 6, 2003, 10:20 PM
Might I humbly suggest focusing on NOT gripping with your knees and using your calves before resorting to tying the stirrups.

I don't think typing will help you much except when your stirrups are actually tied. Once you get rid of that artificial stabalizing, you'll fall back into the same habits.

It looks from the picture like you HAVE the muscles and the ability, you just need to focus on position. I sympathize. I spend my ENTIRE hacks and lessons thinking (--in beat to the trot or canter--) "grip with calves, not with knees" "grip with calves, not with knees." It's hard, but I think focus is better than gimmicks when it comes to fixing equitation (just my 2 cents).

~Veronica

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"Sustained"

Miniature Donkey
Oct. 6, 2003, 10:31 PM
If you must...use rope bindertwine it will break if you only use one thickness which is safest.

"Proud mama of dat four legged beastie."

BenRidin
Oct. 6, 2003, 11:27 PM
Maybe it isn't a matter of leg strength - maybe you need to go over small gymnastics and drill into your head pushing into your heel in the air. Standing up a couple strides before like a beginner helps because you can just hold that positionover the fence.

~BenRidin

Adelita
Oct. 7, 2003, 12:19 AM
A friend (yeah, really!!!!!) used two breakaway dog collars, the kind with the safety releases...

>^.,.^<


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Weatherford
Oct. 7, 2003, 01:06 AM
The best way to strengthen your lower leg is a LOT of HALF SEAT. Of course, you may want to put burrs on your knees to ensure that you are not gripping with them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Truly, that works... By a lot, I mean starting with 10-20 minutes at the trot - go for a hack and do it, makes the time go quicker http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

imapepper
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:02 AM
I went to your webshots hoping to see your leg on the flat and there were shots of you and your horse Stewie (very cute http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). IMHO I think you need to work on lengthening your leg (not shortening your stirrup) and getting your heels down. You had a similar problem on the flat (pict of you cantering). You had your heel level and it was almost up instead of down and you were gripping with your knee. I think the folks who suggested the two point work are on to something. Think about relaxing your knees and ankles instead of stabalizing your position with your knee. I have similar problems and I have been working on two point as well. Good Luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RioTex
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:13 AM
So pick your tie of choice. Spur straps do work well.

The safest spot (and least restrictive) would be bottom layer of the stirrup leather to the girth just under the saddle pad.

The lower on the girth the more restrictive. Hopefully, it will give you a feel for where you need to be and you can then go back to practicing maintaining that feel without the strap.

There is a safety issue and I am not advocating, just answering the question.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

Just My Style
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:43 AM
You need something that will break in an accident. I wouldn't use spur straps, for that reason. You can double over braiding yarn. Shhh. But you didn't hear it from me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Posting Trot
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:46 AM
It may not be your leg that needs strengthening, but rather what you're doing with your upper body. I haven't seen pix of you, so I'm going on zero information. But if you've done all the stirrup-less work you said you did, I doubt that your legs aren't strong.

Try work without reins. With your instructor present, tie your reins up. Do all the WTC stuff, and then try going over cavalletti. Concentrate on not using your hands to balance, and rather keeping your seat deep and your upper body up off the horizontal. Without your hands to balance on, you will be forced to balance on your legs (and not just your knees) and to keep your body back.

ponygirl
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:03 AM
and it could be one more thing- the saddle itself.

"Dogs have owners, cats have staff."

sweetnlo
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:03 AM
If bare back and no hands don't fix ya, SADDLE TIGHT, FRICTION WAX. SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Kirsten
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:20 AM
I'm with BenRidin on this one.

You don't need to tie your stirrups. You need to do a lot of work in 2-point over poles and small gymnastics to get that heel down in the air. It's not about strength vs. weakness. You simply have to get your heel down and practice keeping it there. Going on the only picture I've seen, if you were to tie your stirrup to the girth, your foot would likely come out of the stirrup in the air since your weight isn't in it.

Tin
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vxf111:
Might I humbly suggest focusing on NOT gripping with your knees and using your calves before resorting to tying the stirrups.

I don't think typing will help you much except when your stirrups are actually tied. Once you get rid of that artificial stabalizing, you'll fall back into the same habits.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ditto!

~ they tease you cause they like you ~

ESG
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:28 AM
Get yourself to a good trainer. Obviously, the one you're currently working with isn't competent enough to teach you to balance properly. If you're having to resort to tying your stirrups to your girth after all the work you've put in, there's something missing in your lessons.

Get a new trainer - now. And don't tie your stirrups to your girth. You won't learn squat and you might just get killed in the process. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Pirateer
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:39 AM
I just switched trainers about a month ago...there is no reason to make comments like that without knowing who you are talking about...

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

Janet
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:49 AM
I have never done it, so what follows is strictly a "gedanken experiment".

It seems to me that tieing your stirrups WITH SOMETHING THAT BREAKS EASILY could be useful as a "feedback mechanism" to let you know WHEN your leg swings too far.

Anything that is strong enough to "HOLD" your leg in position is going to defeat that purpose, because you won't KNOW when your leg is swinging. And it won't strengthen the muscles needed to keep your leg in position (just as a standing matingale does not strengthen the muscles needed to keep the head down). It also could be dangerous in an emergency.

I think even baling twine is too strong. It might break in an emergency, but it isn't going to give you the feedback you need.

Braiding yarn or rubber bands sound about right.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

b328
Oct. 7, 2003, 09:04 AM
I would suggest either 6 strands of braiding yarn or number strings. Tying the stirrups will help you get the feel, and both of those types of string will break easily.

ESG
Oct. 7, 2003, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
I just switched trainers about a month ago...there is no reason to make comments like that without knowing who you are talking about...

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care who I'm talking about. If your trainer can't teach you to keep your leg underneath you and still when you ride, he/she isn't much of a trainer..............whoever he/she is. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Just my opinion.......................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 7, 2003, 11:27 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ESG, I suppose riding with a crop between your elbows to help you open your shoulders and sit-up is the sign of a useless trainer too. . . . Not to mention that the original poster is doing this ON HER OWN. Her trainer merely said it as a half joke I would imagine. She never stated her trainer is requiring her to do this.

When we did it, we used bailing twine. It will break if need be but also gives you the feel of having your leg in the correct position. Although I like the suggestion of braiding yarn as it may break easier and also require you to be more sensitive about your leg motion!

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

Dakotawyatt
Oct. 7, 2003, 01:19 PM
Hay string. I tie the iron itself to the girth. I think it's a very useful tool to help you feel what it's like to keep your leg in the proper position. Once you feel that position, you'll figure out what muscles to use to keep your leg in position. Worked for me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Jenny~


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2487lyf
Oct. 7, 2003, 01:21 PM
If you must... You HAVE TO ride in the 4-way sturrips or the tacky rubber-band sturrips, because if you fall off, it will be almost impossible for your feet to slide out. Try useing spur straps.

~*~Nattie~*~
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53
Oct. 7, 2003, 01:42 PM
Pirateer - I can't comment on the tying of the stirrups - it seems that others have their theories about how and why, but I looked at your photo and it looks to me as if you could benefit from what a few other posters have offered - two point work and work with out reins - I just looked at the one photo you linked, and it seems you have your weight in your knees and thighs - you've rounded your back because you cannot reach any more forward without transferring your weight into your stirrups from your thighs. And your feet are slidding, as others have said, because you don't have any weight in your stirrups. Keep working on it - have you asked your trainer for help with this? What does your trainer say?

Oxerbound
Oct. 7, 2003, 02:11 PM
Okay I'm not going to mention any names, and I'm not going to even put forth that the following opinions are from me, because they're not, but she wanted advice, so I will pass on what I've heard strictly about tying stirrups.

For a number of years I clinicked annually with someone who I held and still hold in the HIGHEST esteem. Quite possibly the best clinicianer I have ever ridden with, and that's saying something. A few years ago ago, I had one clinic with her in which we tied our stirrups to the girth. This was an excersize NOT to strengthen our leg, NOT to cheat and "fix" us. It was to FEEL what a truly steady, secure leg is (because how many people know what something is until they've done it?), and see what EFFECT it would have on our ride. Keywords - feel the effect. Not strengthen or fix or cheat.

The material used: balling twine, tied around the inner side of the iron and the spot where that part of the iron would hang at the girth.

The most important thing is to not tie it too tight. The stirrup should NOT be pulled closer to the girth. It should hang normally with a very slight bit of slack in the twine. This is for safety and so that all aids can be properly applied.

To answer the questions that might pop up - No, there were no accidents of ANY sort. No, none of the horses had anything close to resembling a chaff or irritation from the twine (all were thin skinned TBs). No, we did not ride at length like this (only about 20 minutes), and finally, no, she did not use it again the following day or in any other clinics. It was again, simply a demonstration.

PLEASE do not think that I would EVER endorse doing this without knowing the EXACT circumstances, the trainer, the horse, the rider, heck, even the barn! Again, I am simply passing information as it has been told to me, so please don't flame me.

"The man who chooses not to read has no advantage over one who cannot."

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 7, 2003, 02:49 PM
IMO, blaming her trainer is a low blow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif When someone asks for a suggestion, I'm sure they don't want to hear opinions on their trainer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I have tied my stirrups to my girth one time, under the instruction of my trainer (one I'm sure you've probably heard of, ESG, and I'm equally as sure you wouldn't consider him "incompetent" in his instruction.) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He used my spur straps (which are leather) so that if the force was strong enough, they would break under the stress. He tied the stirrup iron itself to the girth. Honestly, it helped somewhat, but it didn't cure my leg slipping back. Of course, this was about a year ago when my leg was really, really bad almost 100% of the time, so one lesson with my stirrups tied to the girth obviously wasn't going to help anything. It did, however, help me get the feel of what a "good" leg feels like. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

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Ain'tNoFoolinAround
Oct. 7, 2003, 02:51 PM
I have tied my stirrups to the girth in an effort to FEEL how the proper secure leg position O/F should feel. I used baling twine, and tied it to the inside of my stirrup and the girth. It does work. Flame me all you want to, but how can you know how it should feel if you have never felt it????? Not all of us are blessed with perfect leg positions, whatever, so the rest of us have to work hard to get it and maintain it. I thought it was a good experience, and I endorse doing it ONLY with a quiet horse, an experienced rider, in an enclosed space and with a good coach. It can be a very good experience. Have you tried thinking 'lower leg forward' when you jump?? or physically pushing your lower leg forward a stride before the jump? If you have a strong leg, this can help with the forward parthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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BenRidin
Oct. 7, 2003, 04:25 PM
I don't see how it could help if you are having problems with your heel which is what your problem is. For someone that steps into their heel nicely in the air but their leg still goes back then I could see using them but you don't step down in your heel so it's very possible your going to a)lose your stirrups in the air, and that is not accomplishing anything for you but making it dangerous.
or b)You will just stand on your toe and get yourself ahead of your leg
Honestly, I wouldn't think it was such a horrible idea if it was just your leg sliding back but in your case it's not, it's you not stepping into your heel over the jump. No matter where you tie your stirrups it isn't going to solve the problem in your heel so when you take the tie off you will be right back where you started from.

~BenRidin

SillyMillie
Oct. 7, 2003, 04:32 PM
Another person saying bailing twine here! I've done it (recommended by an olympic rider) I understand that doesn't make it safe or OK.

I just tie a loop around both stirrups and when I tack up, put the girth through the loops. Dont want to make the loop too long or too short....you need some movement in it.

bailey07
Oct. 7, 2003, 04:55 PM
I have a game for this that i played this summer!(I must say that i did not win this game but it helped!) I think this might help you...what you do is you get a strip of paper(preferably colored if you want to save paper) and you put the paper inbetween you leg and your saddle. You want it about at the place on your leg so that is right below your calf or a little bit farther down, but not much. Then you try to keep the paper in place and not let it drop while you ride around at the walk, then trot(I must say it was hard to do it at the posting trot for me!), and then canter. Focus on keeping your leg in and not letting the paper drop! I hope that this is halpful and fun too!

BTW: EGS- Telling someone that they need a new trainer just because they have a bad habbit that they are having a hard time breaking that habbit is not right at all. You dont know the trainer first of all, and second, everyone has weird things and habbits, no matter who their trainer is. She asked for help for her, not comments about what her trainer is doing and not the advise she needs a new trainer. Sorry but when people say things like that it really ticks me off.

*I'd rather be riding*

Resolute
Oct. 7, 2003, 05:10 PM
My trainer had me tie my stirrups for two weeks with spur straps. It worked very well, and did help my leg.

Pirateer
Oct. 7, 2003, 05:24 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I think if I try anything, it will be with the rubber bands. Because they seem safer than some of the other methods.

If anybody has any other methods of keeping my dang heel down, etc, PLEASE tell me, I am VERY open to anything. I know its a pinching with the knees problem.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

Clever Clover
Oct. 7, 2003, 05:32 PM
I also have the same problem http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. And not that I've fixed it... but my trainer made a suggestion that works well (when I can remember to do it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif). I am to concentrate on keeping my knee straight over the fences. When I am actually able to remember (among all the other things that I'm supposed to do http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) I find that it helps a bunch!

**********
Not all who wander are lost. -J. R. R. Tolkien

proud member of:
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MistyBlue
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:40 PM
I agree with Weatherford. My old instructor from ages back used to stitch small pine cones to the knees of our schooling breeches to make sure we wouldn't grab with our knees. If you've ever tried to pinch the saddle with your knees and get poked with a small pinecone, you won't be doing that again, LOL!

Also, try going out for long hack trots. You stay in half seat and concentrate on your leg, your horse builds muscle and stamina. Win/win.

Ponygirl has an excellent point too, have your saddle checked for your position. It might not fit your build exactly right and can throw off your position no matter how hard you work. That was a good point.

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SCAllstarzHntrRyder
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:44 PM
JUST RIDE WITH OUT STIRRUPS. I warm up EVERY day with out stirrups and my leg looks so much nicer and tighter over fences... my base of support is stronger too. I have been doing this for maybe a month and a 1/2, and it really helps me, esp since I have short legs and cant wrap them around the horse... hah

~Mirage~
~Miss Money Penny~
~Foot Note~
Heidi S AKA Evil Twin

ESG
Oct. 7, 2003, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ESG, I suppose riding with a crop between your elbows to help you open your shoulders and sit-up is the sign of a useless trainer too. . . .

Now where, exactly did that come from? Whho mentioned that? I'd re-read the original post, if I were you. You obviously have it confused with another. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Not to mention that the original poster is doing this ON HER OWN. Her trainer merely said it as a half joke I would imagine. She never stated her trainer is requiring her to do
this.

Yes, I know. I read the post. And the mere fact that she feels she has to tie her stirrups to her girth to keep her leg stable is indicative to me that her trainer isn't helping her achieve a good, independant seat. What, pray, is a trainer for if not to do that? And why isn't he/she able to correct this incredibly basic problem? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

When we did it, we used bailing twine. It will break if need be but also gives you the feel of having your leg in the correct position. Although I like the suggestion of braiding yarn as it may break easier and also require you to be more sensitive about your leg motion!

Have you ever TRIED to break baling twine? Especially the plastic stuff? Sounds like a really excellent way to get yourself hurt or killed. Why not just find a trainer that can teach you how to ride properly? I don't understand..................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESG
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *goofygirl~seriousrider*:
BTW: EGS- Telling someone that they need a new trainer just because they have a bad habbit that they are having a hard time breaking that habbit is not right at all. You dont know the trainer first of all, and second, everyone has weird things and habbits, no matter who their trainer is. She asked for help for her, not comments about what her trainer is doing and not the advise she needs a new trainer. Sorry but when people say things like that it really ticks me off.

Why is everyone so concerned that I "don't know the trainer"? Let me put it this way. I know good horsemanship. I TEACH good horsemanship. I've had students offer to pay me (jokingly of course......I think) to Velcro their feet into the stirrups or the stirrups to the saddle. You know what my answer is? Learn how to ride. And if you can't do it on your own (and no one is saying anyone should - damn near impossible), find someone who will TEACH you. Emphasis on TEACH. Yes, I realize everyone has challenges in their riding, but this is BASIC. You can't (or shouldn't) jump or do anything at all advanced until you have an INDEPENDANT SEAT. No amount of tying stirrups to girths or other wierd, potentially dangerous gimmicks will accomplish that. So what if she thinks she "feels what a steady leg feels like"? She isn't; she's feeling what a leg bouncing around in a stirrup tied to a girth feels like. NOT the same thing at all. And until she finds someone how to teach her to feel it for herself, all the stirrup tying in the world isn't going to help. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

*I'd rather be riding*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BenRidin
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Why is everyone so concerned that I "don't know the trainer"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because you cannot make a good judgement on something like that unless you really know the person and their teaching methods/capability and you can't know all that from reading one comment from one student.

~BenRidin

ESG
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenRidin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Why is everyone so concerned that I "don't know the trainer"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because you cannot make a good judgement on something like that unless you really know the person and their teaching methods/capability and you can't know all that from reading one comment from one student.

~BenRidin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that this trainer is allowing a rider to jump who isn't ready. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That tells me everything I need to know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ESG, I suppose riding with a crop between your elbows to help you open your shoulders and sit-up is the sign of a useless trainer too. . . .

_Now where, exactly did that come from? Whho mentioned that? I'd re-read the original post, if I were you. You obviously have it confused with another. _ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

That was a reference to another "trick" used to help fix a bad habit, but obviously you think that "Trick" is fine since you had nothing nasty to say about it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Not to mention that the original poster is doing this ON HER OWN. Her trainer merely said it as a half joke I would imagine. She never stated her trainer is requiring her to do
this.

_Yes, I know. I read the post. And the mere fact that she feels she has to tie her stirrups to her girth to keep her leg stable is indicative to me that her trainer isn't helping her achieve a good, independant seat. What, pray, is a trainer for if not to do that? And why isn't he/she able to correct this incredibly basic problem?_ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Again she is doing it ON HER OWN. I don't think the original poster is an adult and none of us know how long she has been riding. Sure there are more things her trainer can teach her, ALL of us have things that we can learn to improve our riding. If there weren't you trainers would be out of a job. Just because her trainer can't instantly make her flawless doesnt mean her trainer is crap. I still, after 17 years of serious riding, have bad habits. I would imagine that most of the posters on this board are guilty of bad habits. All of our trainers must suck

When we did it, we used bailing twine. It will break if need be but also gives you the feel of having your leg in the correct position. Although I like the suggestion of braiding yarn as it may break easier and also require you to be more sensitive about your leg motion!

_Have you ever TRIED to break baling twine? Especially the plastic stuff? Sounds like a really excellent way to get yourself hurt or killed. Why not just find a trainer that can teach you how to ride properly? I don't understand..................... _ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Actually I have seen bailing twine break. Do you really think that I would recommend something that I had found to be dangerous. I'm not saying there isnt a possibilty that it wouldn'd break, but in my experience, and obviously the experience of other posters on this board, it has worked out okay.

You're right, she should just trailer in to your barn so that she can finally have a trainer who knows what they are doing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

AreYouKidding
Oct. 7, 2003, 07:56 PM
Anyway, BACK TO THE QUESTION SHE ASKED INSTEAD OF ARGUING... shhhh baling twine works, I've used it. But as soon as you take the twine off, don't expect your leg to stay put. It just helps train the muscles what position to stay in, kinda like draw reins for a horse. Hope this helps!
Lindsay
*Are You Kidding*
*Giorgio*

Medievalist
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
I know that this trainer is allowing a rider to jump who isn't ready. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That tells me _everything_ I need to know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She doesn't have that bad of position...just a fault that needs some work. She is obviously aware of the problem and is working towards fixing it. She needs to practice on the flat and yes, over fences to fix it. Though I could be wrong, I can't imagine that there are huge amounts of fabulous BNTs with whom to train with in Alaska...I'm sure Pirateer is doing the best she can and she sounds like she is learning and making progress(ie. she realizes her faults and is working towards improvement) with her new trainer at school. That, for me, is the other side of reality http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My advice to Pirateer. Spend a few months exercising race horses. One of the best things I ever did for my leg position. That is one thing I got going for me...I hope that it balances out my giant ass http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Clipped and Blanketed. It's cold out!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

DutchOwner
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:07 PM
I know those showgrounds!! It's section 16, or WCCEC! My mare used to love showing there...she was a complete *itch half the time anywhere else, but there she did great. (:

Sorry, no advice except to second what other people said about baling twine.

Btw, Sly's doing great...vet said to give him the winter off though just to be on the safe side. Terry is taking him back to her place over the winter while I'm finishing up college and I get him back for next show season. So, I'm hitting the Alaska club this winter to take off the pounds that not riding very much this summer put on. *ugh* Oh...sorry for getting off topic...(:

"The 21 yr old Equestrienne with 22 yrs of experience who gets stoned and longes young warmbloods and then jumps them with no helmet."

Official mucker, picker, groomer, treat distributor, scratcher, wrapper, and servant to Sly, Aussie, Sesica, and Bristol.

Proud Member of the Elite Four Member Alaska Clique!!

DutchOwner
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:14 PM
Hey, did you leave Bluff park? PT me and let me know who your new trainer is, if you want to...I understand if you don't. I'm not trying to pry... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The 21 yr old Equestrienne with 22 yrs of experience who gets stoned and longes young warmbloods and then jumps them with no helmet."

Official mucker, picker, groomer, treat distributor, scratcher, wrapper, and servant to Sly, Aussie, Sesica, and Bristol.

Proud Member of the Elite Four Member Alaska Clique!!

DoubleTwistedWire
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:50 PM
There's nothing wrong with riding once or twice with the stirrups tied just to get the feel of where your leg should stay. Rubber bands or braiding yarn are good, as they will break easily. I don't think anyone is recommending this as the solution, simply saying that it is one way to get a feel of how things should work, and learn the feel she wants to keep.

Another thing that may help is thinking that you want to push your heels down and forward, which will both get weight in them and keep you off your knee.

tu mamá
Oct. 7, 2003, 08:51 PM
I knew this one trainer who tied ALL their beginner students' stirrups with nylon (not breakaway) dog collars. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

NorthStar95
Oct. 7, 2003, 09:05 PM
I agree with both sides, however I wouldn't do it myself. It is dangerous to secure your stirrups into any position, even if you think it's breakable. And it won't cure your bad habit, but on the contrary it will probably give you a better feel of where your leg should be.

However pirateer, when I went to go look at the pictures of you on your horse to see your leg in action, I found a butterly thong staring me in the face. Come on, how tasteless is that to post a picture of a thong labeled "ME!!" on the internet. Right next to your horse pictures? Jeez.

JMO.

Pirateer
Oct. 7, 2003, 10:24 PM
Ok. I'm not trying to fix the leg by tying it. Its just ONE thing I'm doing. ONE. In addition to lunge lessons upwards of an HOUR AND A HALF long. W/O Stirrups. Don't tell me I'm not working.

And EMG, you are overlooking that fact that I JUST SWITCHED TRAINERS. After 5 years of riding with a BNLT, I am now riding with a BNT. The trainer I am riding with now is NOT the trainer who taught me to ride.

And Jeezus Christ. I bet GM has tied somebodies leg to their stirrups.

And NorthStar95- all I can say to you is that, well, Hey, don't go looking into folder's that have nothing to do with horses. Especially not folders belonging to college kids.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

BenRidin
Oct. 7, 2003, 10:27 PM
Don't worry Pirateer, he has done things worse than that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~BenRidin

OverOxer
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:22 AM
Just remove your stirrups from the saddle. Safer, there's nothing to piss off the horse if it bangs against his sides or withers and there's no way to cheat.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif A trainer made me do this for a month - no stirrups, jumping and all, riding greenies, dressage horses with flashy movement, etc. She even made me jump a 4' course without stirrups a couple times, with a couple 4'3"-4'6" fences. Grids without stirrups are also super. Works wonders.

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
Ok. I'm not trying to fix the leg by tying it. Its just ONE thing I'm doing. ONE. In addition to lunge lessons upwards of an HOUR AND A HALF long. W/O Stirrups. Don't tell me I'm not working.

You misunderstood me. I'm not criticizing you at all. I think your efforts to try and stabilize your leg are admirable and commendable. The problem I have is the trainer (who you mention you've replaced) that didn't teach you to ride properly before allowing you to jump. If you don't have a solid, steady leg as the foundation to your seat, you have no business jumping. This isn't your fault, and please don't think that that was my intent, to blame you. And by the way, a longe lesson should never be more than 30 minutes. After that period of time, muscle fatige sets in and you start actually working the wrong muscles to compensate for the correct ones that are now too tired to work properly. Just thought I'd mention it..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

And EMG, you are overlooking that fact that I JUST SWITCHED TRAINERS. After 5 years of riding with a BNLT, I am now riding with a BNT. The trainer I am riding with now is NOT the trainer who taught me to ride.

Well done, switching trainers. But this trainer doesn't sound like he/she is doing much better in terms of fixing your leg swinging problem. If I'm wrong about this, I apologize. But for a trainer to even say "Gee, I wish I could tie your stirrups to your girth", indicates to me that this trainer too is at a loss as to how to help you overcome this very basic issue. And it IS basic, believe me. I know you're a worker - no one uninterested in correct riding would have bothered to ask for help in the first place. I'm just saddened by the fact that you're not getting much help with something so essential. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

And Jeezus Christ. I bet GM has tied somebodies leg to their stirrups.

Perhaps. But even if he has (and I doubt this - he's a better teacher than that), that doesn't make it right.

And NorthStar95- all I can say to you is that, well, Hey, don't go looking into folder's that have nothing to do with horses. Especially not folders belonging to college kids.

Well, I looked at your photos (just the horsey ones!), and all I can say is....... I LOVE your horse! And WHO is Isabella and is she for sale. Yummy...................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by ESG on Oct. 08, 2003 at 09:05 AM.]

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OverOxer:
Just remove your stirrups from the saddle. Safer, there's nothing to piss off the horse if it bangs against his sides or withers and there's no way to cheat.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif A trainer made me do this for a month - no stirrups, jumping and all, riding greenies, dressage horses with flashy movement, etc. She even made me jump a 4' course without stirrups a couple times, with a couple 4'3"-4'6" fences. Grids without stirrups are also super. Works wonders.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree that this is a good solution to some riders' leg issues, but not Pirateer's. Her problem seems to be pinching with the knee, and I've always been taught that riding without stirrups tends to encourage this rather than having the leg hang long and using the calf and seat correctly. But I suppose that when the knee gets tired enough of pinching, they have to rely on the correct position? Hhmmmmmm, have to ponder this more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BTW, my husband's former trainer used to make his students jump a course without stirrups before he would permit them to show. I don't go quite so far with mine, but that also is the caliber of horsemanship I was taught and practice and teach. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

CuriousGeorge
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:11 AM
Having known the trainer in question since it was a local little name, it is funny to me to see it referred to as a BNT.

I looked at the pictures. To me, Pirateer, just from the 2 action shots I saw, you need to totally readjust your foot position in the stirrup so that you CAN get your heel down properly. Your foot is crammed over on the inside of the iron, which is incorrect. Your little toe should touch the outside of the iron, and it should angle back to cross the ball of the foot.

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:23 AM
Well, he's big name to me. I'm sheltered...Alaska, remember?

My problem is that I can't keep my toe in the right spot on the stirrup. I ALWAYS have had a problem with it.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

Janet
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:30 AM
FWIW, I remember reading that Hans Gunther Winkler (when he was successdully competing internationally) was known to tie his stirrups to the girth as part of the process to improve his leg position.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:38 AM
Guess things have changed since then. I don't notice Otto Becker, Richard Spooner, Chris Kappler, McLain Ward, and a host of others having to do this, and their legs are rock solid. I'd add my hero, Ludger Beerbaum to this list, but his leg has been known to swing occasionally. Of course, it hasn't seemed to hurt his results much................ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BLBGP
Oct. 8, 2003, 09:27 AM
Oh, OverOxer! I remember those days. I had two months straight where my trainer would walk by as I was tacking up and say "Oh, just leave your stirrups at the barn". And then we'd proceed with regular lessons, jumping, switching horses, everything.

But from what I can tell from the pictures, pirateer doesn't need to tie anything to anywhere. She just needs to focus on not pinching with her knee. Even on the flat pictures it looks like her knee is squeezing away and her leg is back and off the horse. I like the pinecone idea--ye-ouch!

I went to an Albert Vroon clinic and he was adament about not pinching with the knee. He even made some riders go around with a riduclous amount of air between their knees and their saddles, just so they could get a feel of how dependant they had become on their knees as their security belts.

Merry
Oct. 8, 2003, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Oh, OverOxer! I remember those days. I had two months straight where my trainer would walk by as I was tacking up and say "Oh, just leave your stirrups at the barn".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup. I grew up with the same sort of trainer. She also had us ride/jump bareback. You either learned to use & position your leg properly or you died (figuratively speaking).

That being said, out of frustration my current trainer tied my girlfriend's stirrups to her girth-- with yarn-- in last week's lesson just so my friend could get a feel for where her leg is supposed to be and how far it sometimes gets out of position. She started riding as an adult just a couple of years ago and is struggling with her lower leg. It helped her realize how much she pinches with her knee and thigh and how that throws her lower leg out of position.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My state's governor can beat up your state's governor.

RugBug
Oct. 8, 2003, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *goofygirl~seriousrider*:
BTW: EGS- Telling someone that they need a new trainer just because they have a bad habbit that they are having a hard time breaking that habbit is not right at all. You dont know the trainer first of all, and second, everyone has weird things and habbits, no matter who their trainer is. She asked for help for her, not comments about what her trainer is doing and not the advise she needs a new trainer. Sorry but when people say things like that it really ticks me off.

_Why is everyone so concerned that I "don't know the trainer"? Let me put it this way. I know good horsemanship. I TEACH good horsemanship. I've had students offer to pay me (jokingly of course......I think) to Velcro their feet into the stirrups or the stirrups to the saddle. You know what my answer is?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to prove a point:

Your students have offered to pay you to velcro their feet to their stirrups? Geez, they better go find a different trainer, because if they have a good trainer, they would never need to say something like that, jokingly or not.

The context of pirateer's trainer's comment is unknown. Maybe he was joking as well. To condemn his teaching ability based on one comment is ridiculous.

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
[<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QUOTE]

Just to prove a point:

Your students have offered to pay you to velcro their feet to their stirrups? Geez, they better go find a different trainer, because if they have a good trainer, they would never need to say something like that, jokingly or not.

The context of pirateer's trainer's comment is unknown. Maybe he was joking as well. To condemn his teaching ability based on one comment is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for taking my remarks out of context. Yes, I was in the process of teaching these people to ride, and I can absolutely state that none of them had been riding with me for five years. Most hadn't been riding for five MONTHS when making this comment. So don't let your imagination run away with you, okay? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And if you had bothered to read AND UNDERSTAND my post(s), it's not so much the trainer's comments I take issue with; it's his lack of ability to fix what is a very BASIC problem. So again, don't let you imagination run away with you. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Janet
Oct. 8, 2003, 01:23 PM
But she hasn't been with the trainer who made the joking comment about "tieing the stirrups" for 5 years eaither. How long do you have to be with a given trainer before your lack of progress gets blamed on the trainer's lack of teaching ability?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
But she hasn't been with the trainer who made the joking comment about "tieing the stirrups" for 5 years eaither. How long do you have to be with a given trainer before your lack of progress gets blamed on the trainer's lack of teaching ability?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how long Pirateer's been with her current trainer, but I do know about how long it takes me personally to stabilize someone's leg, or at least get it to the point where it's stable most of the time. And that's usually not longer than four or five lessons, if the person is really ready to learn, as Pirateer obviously is. If not, well, that's another story. A trainer can only teach what the rider will learn. In this particular case, I don't think Pirateer is to blame for her issue; her trainer(s) are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just my experience.................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 8, 2003, 02:57 PM
Stop arguing with ESG. She is the know-all and end-all of riding. Period. So stop wasting your time trying to prove all of your valid points to her. You words will somehow be intercepted and twisted before they reach her eyes anyway...

Save the whales http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Stop arguing with ESG. She is the know-all and end-all of riding. Period. So stop wasting your time trying to prove all of your valid points to her. You words will somehow be intercepted and twisted before they reach her eyes anyway...

Save the whales http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whooeeee! Someone must have licked all the red off your candy, JJ01! You're usually so sweet to me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:09 PM
Just as sweet as you are to the majority of the people here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif On a serious note, we shoud stop the bickering before poor Pirateer's thread gets locked.

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Just as sweet as you are to the majority of the people here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif On a serious note, we shoud stop the bickering before poor Pirateer's thread gets locked.

http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, but perhaps you should think about that before jumping in on someone else's thread with snotty comments in the first place?

Just a thought................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

becca's boys
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:31 PM
Hey ESG.... for being such a HOT SHOT trainer you sure do have a lot of free time on your hands! I don't see many other big time (busy and successful) trainers doing much posting on the bb. Most of them are out there teaching, riding and training horses 24/7!!

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:33 PM
Begone, troll. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you should think about that before jumping in on someone else's thread with snotty comments in the first place?
[/QUOTE]

:snort: Pot meet kettle... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)

becca's boys
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:39 PM
ROFL! You took the words right out of my mouth!!

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:40 PM
ESG: I have been with my current trainer for LESS than a MONTH. Since school started. That's it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I agree, but perhaps you should think about that before jumping in on someone else's thread with snotty comments in the first place?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And another thing...This is MY thread. And there wouldn't have been all this DRAMA if not for YOUR snotty comments in the first place.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

findeight
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:50 PM
Back to the question...lightweight string such as baling twine -if you have that instead of wire up there.
It's got to be light enough to break very easily or you can get hurt....which is why this really isn't such a hot idea to fix anything...might make things worse.

I have found that working without irons can backfire and make you pinch with your knees, especially as you start to tire. Especially true if the rider has a good background as a rider in other seats and has ridden bareback alot..
Sooooo when you drop your irons be SURE to grip with the back of the leg only...look down and watch if you have to..make yourself hold that knee off the saddle. Once you teach yourself the feel, you will be good to go.
I fear that tying the feet to the girth won't really do the job of teaching you to feel the knee off the saddle as well as simply learning the feel then doing it.
That part is up to you.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

SpringBreak
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:51 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif pirateer do what you want, there's obviously too many strong opinions here to even bother letting them influence you!

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
ESG: I have been with my current trainer for LESS than a MONTH. Since school started. That's it.

And another thing...This is MY thread. And there wouldn't have been all this DRAMA if not for YOUR snotty comments in the first place.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me, but I was COMMENDING YOU for your efforts. Sorry if you think those comments are "snotty". I suggest you go back and read who actually started the "snottiness" on your thread. I've been trying to be constructive. If you don't like or appreciate it, fine. But I have not been disruptful or purposely nasty. Kindly look at the last thread I addressed to you, and you might see that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chelsea
Oct. 8, 2003, 03:59 PM
i didnt read the whole thread, but let me tell you this much:

IN MY EXPERIENCES, trying stirrups does NO good, because at the end you still have a bad habit that (when i did this) was worse then before. It only masks the problem and is no solution. Maybe this is just my solution or my trainer or I were not doing it correctly but thats JME...

----------------------------
.Boomerang.Major Trouble.Irish Echo.Irresistible.Rainman.Capitol Scene.

..No Guts, no glory. No brains, no headaches..

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 04:04 PM
Chelsea, thank you so much for putting in a nutshell what I was trying to say. Bless you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 04:40 PM
I was refering to the earlier comment about the trainer.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

Dakotawyatt
Oct. 8, 2003, 04:47 PM
Let's all just agree to disagree. I'm invoking my thread killing abilities here. Goodbye! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Jenny~


"The daughter who won't lift a finger in the house is the same child who cycles madly off in the pouring rain to spend all morning mucking out a stable." (Samantha Armstrong)

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
I was refering to the earlier comment about the trainer.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever. If you can't take the comment in the spirit in which it was given (i.e., to help you actually achieve your goals), then I suggest you not post asking for advice. I don't know, but if I were you, I'd be pretty P.O.ed at the trainer who didn't teach me properly in the first five years.

Just my opinion..................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pirateer:
I was refering to the earlier comment about the trainer.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever. If you can't take the comment in the spirit in which it was given (i.e., to _help_ you actually achieve your goals), then I suggest you not post asking for advice. I don't know, but if I were you, I'd be pretty P.O.ed at the trainer who didn't teach me properly in the first five years.

Just my opinion..................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What world are you living in, and can I have some of what you are smoking? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:33 PM
Belt up, troll, if you don't have something constructive to add.

Medievalist
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:39 PM
Who is the troll? CGR? Hahahahaha. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Clipped and Blanketed. It's cold out!
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/houssaye)

ESG
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:41 PM
As with all things, depends on your perspective. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 8, 2003, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClemsonGraduateRider:
What world are you living in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She lives on the other side of reality, you troll! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Worry for me guys, I might actually run into this person somewhere http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)

Roxy SM
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:02 PM
First, make sure your saddle is not causing part of your problem. Once that is ruled out, jump without your stirrups all the time. This way, if you don't keep your leg in place you will have a good chance of falling off, especially at a somewhat difficult distance where your horse would have to make more of an effort. This will also teach you to always keep your leg on your horse which will probably build his confidence. Then when you jump with stirrups, it will seem much easier and your leg will automatically be in the correct place.

*Roxy~Henry~Alaska~Kismet~Keynote*

Duffy
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:10 PM
My trainer does not want me, (can't speak to many other clients), riding sans stirrups much. So long as I do it briefly, and only to stretch my leg down, it's ok. But she doesn't want me to do the pinching/hiking thing that one sees so often.

Even at my advanced age, I do try to do some two-point trotting - seems to help sometimes. Sometimes, it just depends on the horse's build and his jump, (and how pudgy my thighs are at the time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I used to lease a horse who jumped hard, even over 3' and sometimes my lower leg, especially my right leg (for whatever reason http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), used to sometimes slip. This horse was WIDE, WIDE, WIDE. I think it was just plain hard, physically, for my leg to curl around him, especially when he was fresher than usual. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My current horse is more "anatomically correct" for me. My leg stays in place better with not as much effort. I still try to do some two-point, just to t-r-y to stretch these old tendons. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"B***h in training"

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 07:34 PM
I do about 10 minutes of two-point at the beginning of my lessons or any other riding...

Like I said, I do longe lessons on a regular basis. My OLD trainer has said that I did pinch with my knees, but never tried anything to fix them besides telling constantly that i was pinching with my knees. But we'll not get into my opinion of my old trainers techniques...

And EMG, I can't help the past. There is no reason to be "mad" at my old trainer. That solves nothing and does nothing besides making enemys, and just because I may have one bad habit, doesn't mean I don't have plenty of good ones. Not everyone can be perfect at teaching everything, just like not everyone can be perfect at doing everything.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

OLD A/O
Oct. 8, 2003, 08:42 PM
Hi- I have looked at your jumping pictures and still pictures. Here is my 2cents, over jumps your legs do look strong but it is your upper thigh that looks very very strong. It looks like you are contracting your thighs muscle so much that your knees are going here your thighs tell them. Thus your lower leg can not do its job. In the still picture your stirrups look like they may be one or two hole too short. Yes, your heels are down but everything looks squished together and too short.

Just try to relaxed your thigh and use you lower leg more and remember you do not have to really STRONG to be a good rider. Sometimes softer is better.

As far as hooking your stirrups to anything, please do not do this. What would you do if your horse stop really nasty and then reared? How could you keep your balance. I have seen someone dragged too and after that I always ride with the bars on saftery releases down.

Good luck!! It is easy for us all to tell you what to do but its hard to a good listener!!!!

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 08:52 PM
Old A/O:

Yepp, I always have a tendency to ride short like a jockey. I have sinced lengthened my stirrups to UNGODLY lengths (not really, it just seems that way to an UBER contracted leg).

One thing that the new trainer has commented on is my tendency to ride off my heel, and not my calf. I ride with my heel as a spur, as somewhat of a reaction to horses that wouldn't accept a spur.

And I have always been taught to ride with the safety releases down, I would NEVER think to do otherwise.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

LoriO
Oct. 8, 2003, 10:34 PM
Old A/O has a very good point, you definately need to learn to stretch your leg down and use your whole leg not just your thighs and knees.

Get your hands on a copy of Sally Swift's Centered Riding book. Some of her mental imagery excercises may help you with lenghtening your your leg and using the whole leg more effectively!!

Some of the mental imagery she uses is fantastic and really can help make a differnce in you riding.


"You are under arrest for operating your mouth under the influence of ignorance!" MPD Officer Beck

"Member of the Western clique"

Pirateer
Oct. 8, 2003, 10:39 PM
Neat! I have that book, haven't looked at it in a while though. Plus its in Alaska. But I'll get my hands on a copy...Thanks for the suggestion!

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

PlusTax
Oct. 8, 2003, 10:46 PM
I kind of missed this whole thread but I'll comment anyway...

I've tied my stirrups to my girth before (with spur straps) because I had a bad habit of sticking my toes way out and only using the muscles in the back of my calf. After about 3 lessons without being able to do that I stopped and now I don't have that problem at all! It was weird to not be able to move my feet around and I kept losing my stirrups at first but it definitly made me a more efficient rider and it made my eq a lot prettier! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**Kelsey**
&
**Notoriety**
**Plus Tax**
**Clearly Canadian**
**Pavielle**
**Angel Face**

http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi

Lord Helpus
Oct. 8, 2003, 11:22 PM
I learn a lot from this BB and one thing I have learned which has made a HUGE difference in my leg line is:

Do NOT "put your heels down". That tightens the tendons along the back of your leg and stiffens your calf and ends up actually raising your heel.

Instead ----

PUT YOUR TOES UP.

I wish I could remember who posted this. When I read it I said, "yeah, sure" and kept on reading. A couple of days later I was having trouble keeping my leg on a horse without pinching my knee and lifting my heel. And that post came back to me. So I tried it.


In-%*&)^-ing-credible the different muscles you have to use to do one v. the other!

The first thing that happens is you lose your stirrup. So then you have to figure out how to keep your toes up AND keep your stirrups. The ONLY way to do that is to lower your heel and, simultaneously, use your calf muscles. Your knee comes slightly away from the saddle and your leg moves 2" forward and into position.

Try it --- it works. And a big "thank you" to the BB'er who shared this wonderful secret.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When life gives you crap, make crapenade.

ESG
Oct. 9, 2003, 05:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
She lives on the other side of reality, you troll! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Worry for me guys, I might actually run into this person somewhere http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Muhahahahahahahah! Yes! Be afraid, be VERY afraid! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 9, 2003, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Belt up, troll, if you don't have something constructive to add.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you'd better stop feeding the troll then! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What constructive things did you add besides telling her that her last trainer was worthless and that if her new trainer hasnt fixed this by now they are worthless too?

She's gotten the advice she needs on both sides of the fence so I don't know what good it does to tell her that you think her trainers are no good. Pirateer knows the limitations of this "exercise" and doesn't have any unrealistic expectations that this is going to immediately solve all of her life problems!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So I don't really see what the problem is in using it as a learning tool for a short period of time. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with me on the tying stirrups but I don't think that she ever asked what our opinions were of her trainer. . . . . .correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif )
- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

ESG
Oct. 9, 2003, 07:06 AM
Just what I'd expect to hear from someone who's a Clemson graduate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pirateer
Oct. 9, 2003, 07:15 AM
ESG-

How about you just SHUT UP already. I mean, its OBVIOUS that you are insecure, otherwise you wouldn't result to insulting someones college.

I'm sick of you coming back and insulting everyone who has a valid point other than your own. And you did make....perhaps one valid point. But who could notice it underneath all of the b*tchy exterior?

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

ClemsonGraduateRider
Oct. 9, 2003, 08:32 AM
ESG - If you would like to discuss my educational background feel free to PT me. I didn't think this was a thread about education.

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

good booie
Oct. 9, 2003, 09:25 AM
YOOHOO!!!!! Moderators, PLEEEEAAAAAASE make ESG go away. I would hope that all this time it may have been a troll, but unfortunatly, I think it might be real. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!

GA Clique!!!

PiedPiper
Oct. 9, 2003, 09:56 AM
Okay I am going to jump in with a totally different idea. To me, as an eventer, it looks like you need to work on pushing your heels down, or toes up, to use the inside of your calf and not your knee. I good exercise with this is to get into two point and stay there and stay there and stay there. Go out on a hack and walk, trot, canter in two point. By fatigue your leg will loosen, your knee will loosen and you will feel a more secure position. Another good exercise is to set up a line of small bounces, tie your reins and go through with your arms extended. If you fall forward than your center of gravity isn't back far enough and with out sitting up, push your heels down and forward and stay in two point. Anyway, some things that have work for me. My big problem is my achilles tendon not stretching very easily so I have to really work on my leg. Plus, make sure that your stirrup bar is set in the correct spot. It could be that it is causing your leg to swing back when you jump and thus the gripping with the knee. If you can try and more forward jumping saddle and see if that improves your position. Just some thoughts! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

AAJumper
Oct. 9, 2003, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
Guess things have changed since then. I don't notice Otto Becker, Richard Spooner, Chris Kappler, McLain Ward, and a host of others having to do this, and their legs are rock solid. I'd add my hero, Ludger Beerbaum to this list, but his leg _has_ been known to swing occasionally. Of course, it hasn't seemed to hurt his results much................ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you say that their legs are rock solid, do you mean that they don't slip back? Because I have a picture of Richard Spooner that shows otherwise. And don't get me wrong, I'm a big Richard Spooner fan, but his leg does slip back on occasion. However, that didn't prevent him from riding in a World Cup Qualifier with no stirrups (he had a broken leg)!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JuniorJumper01
Oct. 9, 2003, 05:26 PM
AAJumper-

Well obviously Richard needs to take some lessons from ESG! His leg slipping back is a basic problem that any sufficient trainer could fix. I would say he needs more weight in his heel-wouldn't you agree, ESG?

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/juniorjumper01)

Pirateer
Oct. 9, 2003, 05:46 PM
And look at him jumping ahead of that POOR POOR horse. Obviously ALL of his trainers were idiots.

Rebecca and SNL (Stewie)
http://www.bluffparkfarm.com
http://community.webshots.com/user/pirateer

Finnegan
Oct. 9, 2003, 06:32 PM
I don't have the time right now to go through all 6 pages so pardon me if I am repeating, but perhaps the saddle has something to do with it? Some saddles just keep you so balanced you can't help but stay centered and move with the pony, but some saddles do put you in a position which can push you to or fro while jumping. Since you do have a strong leg and I'm sure you're jamming your heels down (heels down, heels down, heels down is my mantra) maybe the saddle isn't helping any. Just a thought.

~Bev

-----------------------
Finnegans Wake
1992
Irish Sport Horse x Hanoverian
16.1hh
bay

Silly Mommy
Oct. 9, 2003, 08:33 PM
LH,

It was probably my idol DMK who posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do NOT "put your heels down". That tightens the tendons along the back of your leg and stiffens your calf and ends up actually raising your heel.

Instead ----

PUT YOUR TOES UP.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have also posted something similar, except I tell my students to PULL their toes up and sink (or melt) into their heels.

Back to the question. I did it once with a student, I used thin shoestrings (stronger than yarn, more breakable than bailing twine). Didn't do it again, but it did help briefly. Kid had no work ethic or leg (cheated on no-stirrup work), so I wanted her to feel where her leg was SUPPOSED to be. She has since (thankfully) moved on, and will never be a rider - she was a spoiled brat who wanted everything easy and was doing it because she had some sort of weird competition thing going with her mother, but that's another novel.

I was never grounded when I was younger, I lost my stirrups for weeks. Kinda tough when you have 5 ponies to ride every day.

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

rhymeswithfizz
Oct. 10, 2003, 09:41 AM
"Heels down" image never worked for me either! And I grew up in the time when you had to keep your toes straight forward, so I learned to ride standing on the outside of my toe and twisting my ankle to get my toes forward. Bad. I never had a strong base of a support, and pinched with my knee because my calf was too busy trying to point my toe forward.

I'm an eventer, and the images that work for me to keep my leg on now (most of the time) are actually to shove my feet forward. I had one clinician who would always tell us to ride "heels first!!", that is to say, to imagine your heel being the thing farthest in front when you on the horse, approaching the fence, over the jump, and landing (think about being able to land on your feet if there was no horse under you). Of course this is anatomically impossible, but it did keep my leg far enough forward that my calf would "lock in", create the base that I was lacking, allow my toes to come out, and everything would magically come together.

I'm no equitation rider, but here's a decent pic:

http://theamazingliz.hypermart.net/images/sully-rt-st1.JPG

where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?

Tollriffic
Oct. 10, 2003, 01:32 PM
Spur Straps or baling twine.

"Where is the love???"-Black Eyed Peas

ihuntfoxes
Oct. 12, 2003, 12:14 PM
Ok, wow...lots of postings, but anyway... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Pirateer, obviously from your pictures you understand what looks wrong...but have you seen what looks right? If you have the time (i was a rider in college too, i understand the schedule) snag a Practical Horseman and checkout the leg position while jumping article (there is one in just about every issue) and try to understand why it is wrong and look at one that is correct. i know this is going to sound cheesy but...seeing the problem is one thing, knowing what is causing it and how to fix it is another.

Before resorting to trying your stirrups to your girth (in general...just a bad idea) look at yourself hacking in a mirror. is your leg back all the time or just when you jump? check your foot position and base (are your toes up and angled slightly outward in your stirrup or inward taking your support out from under you? are your calves and top inner thigh your connection points or is it your knee?)

Tightening just your knee on the saddle creates a fixed point (almost like a hinge) for your lower leg to bend from...thus when your are in two-point everything supported by your knee moves foward but your leg is left on its own. let your support structure be you whole leg, creating a strong base. to do this you need to angle your toes out slightly so that your inner calf can rest on your horses side (this will also take pressure off the knee), if you are going to kung-fu grip...do it with your upper inner thigh. supporting with two areas (an upper and lower) eliminates the hinge aspect and provides a more solid base.

practice this while schooling, look at yourself in a mirror while you ride or have a friend video tape, compare your image to the one of the correct leg postion. try to get a feeling of your leg being under you. start out with some small jumps (2'6" or so) where you can mainly concentrate on your position, think about your leg, then watch your video (do you notice a difference?) gradually, work your way up to bigger jumps...after you have established good leg postion on the smaller stuff, it should come easily.


________________________________________________
P.S. ESG...where have the riders gone?

cheeky_appy
Oct. 12, 2003, 01:48 PM
OK goodness knows what fuss I will start with this advice knowing the recent tensions between here and eventing. But I am being 100% genuine when I say, take your horse for a good forward ride around a cross country course for fun. The drop fences, up hills, steps even water will soon have you thinking so hard about staying with your horse that your lower leg will stabilise in no time. Worked for me! Plus its incredibly beneficial for the horse to get out and have some fun out there in a different environment!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aim 2003/2004: National High points for appaloosa show jumping!

Jumpitis351
Oct. 12, 2003, 03:54 PM
The way that worked best for me to keep my legs sticking onto my horse was to take the sturrips off COMPLETELY!!! It's a great way to fix your seat in the saddle and also it makes your legs stronger. If you don't want to take the sturrips off, then put them over the pommel, so they won't hit you in the shins. Good Luck!

"Just because something is a little beat up, doesen't mean you throw it away." -Tom Smith, Seabiscuit's handler