Team Barefoot---some interesting observations

[LMH]

So what do you think of this. I recently (8 weeks ago, or so), transitioned my 5yo TB to barefoot (white feet and all for the doubters).

He is back in full work, including jumping in a sand arena twice a week (up to 2'6", including gymnastics) and ridden in a field usually twice weekly.

Now, this guy's hocks started fusing as a 4yo (likely genetic) and has always been on his forehand...he has also had a terrible left drift so since he has been jumping.

Now--he goes balanced on all footing-much moreso than ever, traction is better than when shod and there is absolutely NO left drift. He shoots straight with no assistance from me.

Related to being barefoot? No idea. Interesting? To me, YES.

And for all the BIG doubting Debbie's, yes, it could be argued that the time off allowed him to miraculously become balanced and straight-however, he has had time off in the past with no affect on those issues.

Just thought I would throw this out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[LMH]

So what do you think of this. I recently (8 weeks ago, or so), transitioned my 5yo TB to barefoot (white feet and all for the doubters).

He is back in full work, including jumping in a sand arena twice a week (up to 2'6", including gymnastics) and ridden in a field usually twice weekly.

Now, this guy's hocks started fusing as a 4yo (likely genetic) and has always been on his forehand...he has also had a terrible left drift so since he has been jumping.

Now--he goes balanced on all footing-much moreso than ever, traction is better than when shod and there is absolutely NO left drift. He shoots straight with no assistance from me.

Related to being barefoot? No idea. Interesting? To me, YES.

And for all the BIG doubting Debbie's, yes, it could be argued that the time off allowed him to miraculously become balanced and straight-however, he has had time off in the past with no affect on those issues.

Just thought I would throw this out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[onthebit]

Maybe a logical conclusion then could be that something about the shoes was bothering him to cause the left drift, since you have rested him before with no effect on the drift, and now it is gone. Hmmmm, something to ponder . . .

Go team barefoot! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Invite]

Even with aluminums, my filly Louise would come out of her stall stiff every morning and was an awkward mover. I took her as a favor to a friend even though I knew she was a "bad" mover and I figured she could be a pasture ornament. I had problems with my farrier and Louise kept throwing shoes, so I decided to learn to trim my own and go the barefoot route.

Since Louise has been barefoot for the past 5 months, she has become a dream undersaddle. No one can believe she is the same horse. She walks out of the stall perfectly fine every morning. I can't guarantee the removal of her shoes caused the major improvement, but I don't know what else it could be.

[LMH]

Things that make you go hmmmmmm http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[OnyxThePony]

Yet another one of my many (many many) crackpot theories, is that the horse's hoof, allowed to wear naturally, will wear in such a way as to improve the gait versus a hoof forced to conform to an unnatural (to it) mold (ie horseshoe).
Part of that, is this: Since no footing is perfectly flat, and the horseshoe can NOT compensate for uneven footing (it's flat and unyielding), thus the horse's leg has to compensate for the unevenness. Thus a copromised leg will wear more and show the stress. Yet an unshod hoof can and will adapt for each and every step to a small degree, thus lessening the impact on leg stress.

Yep, just yet another of my many crackpot theories that won't be proven my me in the near future.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MistyBlue]

It may be a crackpot theory, but it also gives food for thought. I never looked at it that way exactly...but seems to make some sense to me after just reading it. Will have to definitely use some ponder time on this one...hmmmmmm.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
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[hoppy]

Her's something else to ponder. 5 year old Connemara stallion, lots of pasture (260 acres) band of mares, and no trimming in 2 years. ACPS inspected and approved in Sept.2003 with marks in excellent feet, hard and well shaped. Hmmmmmm

[OnyxThePony]

hoppy- oh my goodness, where are you from? Judging by your email addy, Alberta or BC?
Judging by the above comment (and knowing BC too wet), Alberta??
Do you stand that conny stallion? Do you have a website? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Uhhh... I think I'll call it Bob.
BOB?? You can't call a Planet Bob!!
Why not. PlanetBob..has a nice ring to it..

[Liz]

If you are really interested and not just chatting, there is an article about a study done on the horses foot. Look at http://www.star-knightfarm.com/info/foot.htm

Makes an argument for pulling the shoes, especially on those big guys.

[slb]

Liz....that link just brings up a site called SearchLight (looks like a search engine or index of some sort)...nothing about feet. Could you check it out for us?

Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[LMH]

Bumping so Liz can double check the link http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I would love to read that study.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[good booie]

LMH- Please PT me and tell me who you are using for this. I am halfway to Team Barefoot. I pulled his hind shoes a month ago and am really thinking of "going all the way". There is someone who comes to our barn who specializes in barefoot trimming.

Love my Quarter Horse!

GA Clique!!!

[slb]

Ok...got a handle on the link...took some time to figure it out, but it basically goes to a copy of Bowker's paper on Physiological Trimming for a Healthy Equine Foot. Here is a direct link to that work and some others by Bowker. It is interesting and good stuff. My farrier husband applies much of what is covered in the infomation.

http://cvm.msu.edu/HINFO.HTM

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Bebe1]

Thanks for sorting the link out Slb, it was really interesting reading.

My mare was very lame over the summer due to bad shoeing from a new farrier (he came recommended to me). It has taken 6 months to get her sound again and her front hooves, which were the worst affected, are still not right. I had her hind shoes pulled about 12 weeks ago now and her hooves look fantastic and she's going much better now. She has her front shoes pulled on the 31st of this month and I have Old Macs on standby as I anticipate she'll be sore at first. Reading the article has just strengthened my resolve that I'll be doing the right thing for her.

[JB]

I am fascinated with this statement from that article!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This load is transmitted to the sole around the frog apex via the dirt that accumulates from the ground. "Dirt should be left in the foot," explains Bowker. In other words, don't clean your horse's feet unless they have been standing in a lot of manure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[OnyxThePony]

JB..another one of my crackpot theories (yes I did say I have many) is to leave dry soft dirt in the hoof after a session. Especially going from arena to outside, if you ever have that situation.
But I think he really should have qualified that statement by saying that hooves do need to be picked out regularly to check for stones, bruises, and to clear out wet, stinky matter. It sounds from that one quote like he's saying never to pick your horse's feet.

I've (in general, depending on situation) gone from pickaholic to much less picking than would ever earn me a spot on a Pony Club!!

I think it's so so interesting that people are finally able to read more information and learn enough to make their OWN decisions about what is right for their own horse in their own circumstances. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif


Uhhh... I think I'll call it Bob.
BOB?? You can't call a Planet Bob!!
Why not. PlanetBob..has a nice ring to it..

[LMH]

Very interesting read-sounds like principles very similiar to Gene O (Hope For Soundness)---slb-would you agree?

I asked my trimmer about the dirt idea-and his position is if you have "good dirt"--not infected with manure,etc then ok---chances are though if a horse spends any time in a stall, that just isn't going to happen.

Also, bear in mind, you must elminate fungus from the foot-and in order to do so, you must get the foot clean to treat the fungus...

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[Ride'emVA]

On that note, I pulled my 13yo geldings shoes because after the farrier decided to change his angles for *no* apparent reason, he went lame. Now he is barefoot, and has been for about two months now. My theory, as Bob explained it, is that Mother Nature will fix what the farrier scr*wed up. Problem: He is SUPER sore, can't even turn around in the concrete aisleway without the ouchies. I bought some Venice Turpentine to paint on the bottom of his hooves, because I heard it toughens them up. As well, I heard Dry Milk in the feed will do the same. Anyone heard of any of this or have any ideas? I haven't been riding him, and won't until this is completely taken care of, I just go to visit with carrots, LOTS of carrots... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Just My Style]

I am so glad there is a team barefoot. I was told by my favorite farrier that there are two times that a horse should wear shoes. First, if they are going to be ridden in an environment that they will experience severe footing changes and any of those changes cause the horse discomfort. Two, if they have a very specific hoof or leg problem that can only be corrected by the aid of a shoe. He told me too that some horses feet just aren't cut out for shoes as much as others. They have an area that can take the nails. Too low. Shoes fall off. Too high. Horse is sensitive. Sometimes when they are left alone, Mother Nature finds the best way.

None of my horses currently wear shoes. Both of my ponies had great feet and both showed "A" horse shows barefoot. My hunter only wore shoes when he was actively showing (for the surface change reason). His shoes were pulled every winter and only put on in the spring. My new draftX does not wear shoes. I ride him primarily cross country and he has much better traction barefoot than he would with regular shoes.

LMH- I don't have an explaination for what you are experiencing with your horse, but I think it very well could be shoe related. I am glad your guy is doing better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Help control the pet population- Spay and Neuter your pets!

[Pixie Dust]

Is there a team? Can we join?

Here's my barefoot eventer-

[onthebit]

Ride'em Virginia,

You bring up an interesting point. I think many people think their horses cannot go barefoot because when you pull the shoes they are so sore. What I have learned is that what is currently considered to be the "correct" method of trimming the hoof by many farriers is a high heel, long toe scenario which is absolutely not correct and is even more uncomfortable for the horse without shoes. That is why I *DO* think there is a difference between a typical farrier's "pasture trim" which is basically the same thing they do to a shod horse just sans shoes, and a "barefoot specialist's" trim. On a separate thread many people feel these trims are hocus pocus and people think they are new fangled when actually it is old knowledge. It may very well be old knowledge that high heels and long toes are bad, but most farriers currently are not taught this way. You need to find someone who truly knows how to do a good barefoot trim and then you will be amazed at how your horse will heal himself, just as you said.

[LMH]

onthebit-my thoughts exactly.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[hoppy]

Hi Planetbob, yes I own the stallion and no I don't stand to outside mares, just cause I don't want the hassle. I use him for breeding to QH mares , to produce excellent kids ponies.Connemara are known for their excellent feet and attitude, which I want to infuse into the QH. I don't believe in shoeing horses and hope one day that by better breeding for good feet, shoeing will become a thing of the past.

Ps yes I live in Alberta and yes I freeze my A** every winter. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Liz]

Hey guys...sorry about the link. If you haven't found it go to www.star-knightfarm.com (http://www.star-knightfarm.com) then look in "from the vet" go to the article on feet. My vet referred me to this because we pulled the back shoes off my jumper. I spoke to my farrier and he actually said that he believes that if you are willing to wait it out your horses feet will be better in the loing run. That being said, waiting it out means several months to a year. That is how long it takes to grow a completely new hoof. He told me to expect some foot soreness at first and that my horses feet would toughen up. My vet believes that the natural hoof without shoes absorbs the concussion from working better than feet with shoes (with shoes most of the concussion is on the hoof wall). With some of these bigger horses, especially if they have a thin hoof wall, this can lead to foot/leg problems. Without the shoe the concussion gets dissipated throughout the entire hoof (this is also supposed to promote circulation). Just a theory.

[CrowneDragon]

There have been many incidental findings for me since I have swithced to barefoot.
I have one TB mare who had big time problems lameness wise, bad feet, navicular, pedal osteitis, etc. She was always the type that HATED to be groomed. The whole time she would throw her head and lash her tail and make funny faces. She also never really stood square, or filled out nicely. After she transitioned to barefoot, she became a joy to groom, always stands square at rest, and FINALLY has a topline. Nothing else has changed.
Hmmm..........

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ride'emVA:
I pulled my 13yo geldings shoes because after the farrier decided to change his angles for *no* apparent reason, he went lame. Now he is barefoot, and has been for about two months now. Problem: He is SUPER sore, can't even turn around in the concrete aisleway without the ouchies. I bought some Venice Turpentine to paint on the bottom of his hooves, because I heard it toughens them up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The soreness is not from sole tenderness. If he is sore turning on concrete, he has a weak laminar connection, and (tight) turns such as this stress the laminae by putting torque forces on them. Weakened laminar connection is often seen right after a horse's shoes are removed. If in this condition he does make those turns, the torque will prevent a tight connection from growing in from the coronet and he will continue to be sore and it will take longer for a healthy foot to grow in.

[royal militron]

Does anyone have any or know of any sites of a barefoot trim. I would like to see a hoof that has had this done...

[Sobriska]

what onthebit says for sure. I have also read that sometimes the bars are left too long and that is what is really sore, not the soles. My horse had quite a bit of seperation when his shoes were removed. My barefoot trimmer got the wall off the ground so that it would not continue to pull away. I can't believe how good this horse is doing. He is 23 and probably had shoes for 20 yrs. Last September I could not ride him because he wasl always NQR. Vets could find nothing specific, and just attributed it to his age. He was not really lame, just uneven. I am so suprised that he goes much more evenly without the shoes. I had given up hope of continuing upper level work with him, but we very happily played with canter pirouttes this am.
My horse that was diagnosed with navicular and wore bar shoes for years is also much more comfortable barefoot. I could have saved so much $ and tears of frustration if I had learned this years ago.

Be all that you can be forever. Be an organ donar.

[LMH]

sites:

http://www.barefoothorse.com
http://www.ironfreehoof.com
http://hopeforsoundness.com
http://tribeequus.com

that should get you started

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[SLW]

I ask my farrier to shoe my horses if their work environment is such that, when combined with their own unique "God Given" hoof and conformation, they need it. Otherwise, they stay barefoot.

Our barrel racing mare is always barefoot. We trim her every 5 weeks from April through September. 100% of her competition in arenas and when we field hack her or road ride her we keep her off the gravel.

Our geldings shoes are pulled after Labor Day because I'm cheap. My riding time diminishes in direct proportion to the reduced sunlight....after a couple weeks of being barefoot he toughens up and does fine with the reduced workload. When I foxhunted him he wore shoes year round as they chipped and wore down quickly.

IMO, there are farriers who trim hooves correctly and farriers who don't. I'm leary of farriers who brag when a "trim" becomes something different- as though it's magical or mythical.

SLW
"The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

[slb]

SLW....Right on! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Just a few words from the peanut gallery...
I agree with SLW, a correct trim is a correct trim, there are no miracle trims or cure-all trims. Either a farrier knows how to balance a foot or they don't. Correct preperation for barefoot should be different than a foot that will be shod, if this isn't being done, then it simply isn't a correct trim...but it is not a "barefoot" trim.

A word about shoes...shoes are inanimate objects, they don't "do" anything, they don't "cause" any thing - that's a little over simplified. They are simply a flat piece of metal that the horse stands on. It is the application that makes them work or not work and any time there is a bad application, it is not the fault of the shoe, it is generally the trim that is incorrect. And, if you want to talk expansion/mechanism...then come prepared with numbers....those for expansion and those that are the differences between shod and unshod feet....and tell us your preception of how the foot works....I would be very interested to know other's ideas on this.

LMH...Yes, Bowker parallels Gene O's Natural Balance methods. For pics and instructions on applying Bowker's trim, take a look at www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) (the tutorial section). Bowker, Ovenick and Page all congregate to discuss their findings and contribute to each others research.

BTW, good choice of sites! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[miss moca]

By five weeks my horse's shoes are paper thin, what would happen if he went bare foot? Also, the trails I ride are all rocky with lots of road crossings, or roads that are part of the trail system.

Team barefoot: What kind of footing do you ride your horses on?

The thing I hate the most about the barefoot movement is they try to push it down your throat that you are abusing your horse by shoeing him. I guess I am abusing my horse by giving his bowed tendons extra support with eggbars, while the foundered horse at my barn, who is bare foot because his owner is a natural horsemanship purist...no bits, shoes or saddle trees, pursues her dream of a barefoot horse. This horse was fine with shoes and has been in pain with throbbing pulses in his feet since his owner decided bare feet is the only way to go, and shoes are cruel. this has been going on for months. This horse also has problems of abcesses in his feet due to the founder and bruises to his soles "which are supposed to support his feet", instead of the hoof wall. The scary part is she has a bunch of clients now who she trims their horse's feet. This woman has only two years of horse experience.

If I could use the instant graemlins. I would use the one with popping eyes right about now!

[LMH]

The trouble is miss moca, it seems you are lumping all "barefoot trimmers" into one pile-there is no doubt there are good farriers, bad farriers, good trims, bad trims...what you have witnessed is just plain bad horsemanship, bad care, bad hoof trimming.

That is not the only way. If you are interested in barefooting over trails, do what I did. I got on the barefoot sites and called the trimmers referenced on each site. I asked them what their clients did and called clients for references.

Another thing to consider if you want to barefoot is boots-like Old Mac's or Swiss boots.

I understand how painful it is to watch the horses at the farm suffer needlessly-I just hate to see all barefoot horses or owners to be lumped in the same group.

Now, to answer you questions, mine are ridden in a sand arena, in a field and across gravel driveways. Should I decide to trail ride I might invest in boots---just not sure yet.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[good booie]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif This thread has me very excited about becoming a full member of Team Barefoot!!! Just got off the phone with my farrier to see when he can come out to pull the other front (down to one shoe since the other came off). With only one shoe on I am soooo close to being a full member http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

This will be my first time going barefoot and will keep posting on this thread with my experiences both good and bad.

Love my Quarter Horse!

GA Clique!!!

[Ride'emVA]

Lookout:

Thanks! I didn't realise...Is there anything I can do to help this process along? Not necessarily speed it along, I don't want to push my luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Obviously, no tight turns in the aisle - he reacts the same ouchy/gimpy way when I take him in from the field and he may have to turn toward the gate, is that cause for concern? I just want him to be more comfortable while we are getting his feet back in order; I am counting on not riding him until Spring, if that's how long it takes...

[mcmIV]

What's the opinion on upper-level eventers going barefoot. ie: Prelim+

I am not an upper-level eventer. But I was recently party to a controversy about a kid who was riding his horse barefoot that was having difficulty jogging sound and had issues with hoof testers due to foot soreness. He was a prelim--&gt;* guy and obviously the horse must jog sound.

Those horses are galloped on varied terrain, jumping huge elements at speed and in general under quite a bit more stress than the average horse. Are barefeet appropriate? Just curious.

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

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[LMH]

Hey martha-from my understanding there are event horses going barefoot--I am not sure to what level but I believe there are a few prelim level barefoot horses out there. If I can find the names or info on the horses I will post---in the meantime maybe someone else will jump in.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[mcmIV]

I know there are prelim'ers going barefoot.... and some might be sound. But when it comes to going prelim and up into the Three Day, I wonder how wise it is to pull shoes for so much pounding.

I guess my question is more theory about the nature of the foot for the job... is it *wise* to go barefoot when you're talking bout a Three Day Event?

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
http://www.adifferentcolor.com
My Album for your viewing entertainment.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[miss moca]

Thanks LMH for your reply.

My 14.1 Appaloosa I had as a kid did fine barefoot, but he was only ridden in a soft dirt ring or sand training track. I had the farrier trim him. The same farrier used to trim a pony at my barn, until he retired. He was sound when trimmed by the farrier. Now the girl trims him herself. He is also lame, like the rest of the New age barefoot horses at my barn.

As I said in the other barefoot thread, the barefoot horses at my barn that are trimmed by a farrier are all sound. You wouldn't know that they are barefoot from a distance, because they are sound and move beautifully.

[hoppy]

Our horses go on sorts of terrain, and have never been bothered by rocky areas. In fact when I was younger and we owned cattle, the pastures would be 4-5 miles apart. We would trail the cattle down gravel roads with no problems. I believe it is what your animals are use to, and ours were constantly rode on different terrain.

I know what works with our horses, I have over 20 head that require very little work with their feet, they wear them down themselves.Most people don't have the area required for this. Again I have some connemara crosses that have never had to have their feet trimmed, and they move beautifully.

[onthebit]

mcmIV, can you give more details on what the controversy was at the event you were at. Obviously many a shod horse has been spun at a vet check for foot soreness and a myriad of other problems. I am just curuious as to why it was a controversy? Was it just because the horse was barefoot or were there other issues associated with this particular case? And I am not trying to pick a fight, truly just want to know the particulars of this particular situation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks!

[marta]

i definitely subscribe to teh barefoot theory. my mare is doing great barefoot. finally getting sound. in fact i could probably say she's sound but i'm afraid to jinx her (ridiculous, i know).
however, she's still a little ouchy on gravel. she's on 24 hour turnout in a pasture that's a mix of grass and some rocky ground. we mostly trail ride and she's fine there pounding her feet into the ground. but if i were going for a ride and i knew that we would have a lot of rocky terraine to deal with i'd put her old mac's on. no one has been able to tell me for sure whether or not her feet will remain sensitive forever. i was hoping that after a year she'd be fine. it's been a year and yes, she's a lot better but still not happy on gravel. since this doesn't really interfere w/ my riding or her health i don't care. i'm still curious whether or not they'll eventually harden up. there is a morab (her pasture mate) at teh barn who trots on the gravel path w/o any hestitation. i'm perpetually amazed.

"It appears we are being transformed from an information
society to an informant society." Rep. Dennis Kucinich

[mcmIV]

Oh I don't want to give too many particulars and "air" the situation considering I had *no* official position in the middle of it other than second hand hearing the issue. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't think it was that was big of a deal.. but it wasn't at an event, it was more a qualifying thing relating to a team. Rider refused to put shoes on the horse and the organizing officials were very concerned about the horse remaining sound barefoot.

The situation wasn't my question, I was asking more because as I heard this "controversy" I was thinking to myself, "I wonder how I feel about barefeet on a Three Day horse... is it really a Bad Thing or is it just this paticular horse?"

I wasn't really able to respond with an educated answer or an informed opinion because I really don't have an opinion on a 3Day horse being barefoot!

Thus, I'd like to know particulars about horse feet relating to the demands of a sport like racing or 3-day eventing.... a sport that is really above and beyond the NORMAL life of a horse and may require some additional soltutions...(?) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

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[slb]

You raise an interesting question Martha....
There are horses that do 100 mile endurance and in Austraila, it is not uncommon for Standardbreds to compete barefoot. In the US, almost no one will venture into the barefoot racing realm because if the horse starts the season barefoot, it must remain barefoot.

There are other horses that compete barefoot in all sorts of "beyond the norm" stuff. However, I would also say that these are exceptional horses.

As far as consussion goes...there is far less in a barefoot than in a shod foot, and even less in a rubber shoe than in a barefoot. Alunium is less than steel, but not as sturdy so some support is lost. There is of course also more or less depending on terrain. So concussion really depends on the shoe material coupled with the terrain.

IMO, until we can begin to recognize heatlhy vs unhealthy feet simply by looking, then there will always be controversy. Some feet you will never be able to look at and determine that they are healthy or unhealthy...they will require x-rays or beyond. When people speak of their horses not being able to go barefoot, I always believe that the foot is simply too unhealthy to do so...they simply don't recognise it as such. Then there is the question of can we actually heal all hoof pathologies? I believe that we can heal a lot of them, but not all of them. The digital cushion and interacting parts are IMO the most important structures in regard to a healthy foot. If the horse is jumping, racing or doing other highly concussive work, then the digital cushion is the primary instrument that must be robust and working well to allow that horse to perform. If the digital cushion is weak, the heels will be weak and the frog often is unhealthy.

Bowker notes in his research that there are "good" feet and "bad" feet. One of the major differences is a "ledge" that resides above the digital cushion. This ledge was evident in many Arabs, but not so in Standarbreds. Although he didn't seem to notice it...the difference IMO would be that Arabs are 1) genetically better footed, and 2) trimmed either more balanced or upright where Stbds are typically trimmed LT/LH.

The biggest problem that I have with what is called the new "barefoot movement" (which IMO is very funny...I have been barefooting horses for over 30 years) is that there is no room for shoes...that every horse can go barefoot. If they were all wild, I would agree, however, we have bred domestic feet for too long...we must now live with the consequences....some are good enough for barefoot and some are not!

I have horses that have never been trimmed, some that must be continually trimmed to correct flaws that are the result of limb deviations. I also have horses that are trimmed on a sort of schedule and ridden anywhere soundly. Then, there are those that need boots or shoes to go sound on rocky ground. The bottom line is...all horses must be treated individually and you simply can't lump them into one catagory of "always" barefoot or shod...neither is IMO "right".

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[mcmIV]

SLB - your consideration of different solutions for different horses might explain this anecedote of mine....

I have a prelim friend who has a big TB with pretty good feet. She removed his shoes 10 months ago or so, and has been conditioning him for a Three Day barefoot. He competed maybe 1 or 2 prelims barefoot successfully.

However into the middle of the summer, he started having MAJOR issues jumping. Stopping at almost everything. Lack of confidence, lack of Umph over the fences. Her former jumping machine was fast becomign very unreliable.

She had him shod and tapped for studs. All the stopping/confidence issues were GONE once again. It was very clear that the barefeet were causing him some concern when it came to jumping.

Traction? Pain? Foot soreness? I don't know what the problem was... but its interesting.

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
http://www.adifferentcolor.com
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[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
sites:

http://www.barefoothorse.com

Look here for some badly unbalanced feet.

_"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ride'emVA:
Lookout:

Thanks! I didn't realise...Is there anything I can do to help this process along? Not necessarily _speed_ it along, I don't want to push my luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Obviously, no tight turns in the aisle - he reacts the same ouchy/gimpy way when I take him in from the field and he may have to turn toward the gate, is that cause for concern? I just want him to be more comfortable while we are getting his feet back in order; I am counting on not riding him until Spring, if that's how long it takes...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mostly you have to wait it out. However if you make sure the horse gets plenty of movement in straight lines (easy, handwalking on good footing), this will dissipate the inflammation, which will allow a healthier white line connection to grow out and down. He should be much better within 4 months when the new growth should be about halfway down.

[Character]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> http://www.barefoothorse.com

Look here for some badly unbalanced feet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, in the before pictures. And yes, in the pics where readers send in the pics for advice on how to make them better. Those are before pics. Sheesh.
If there is a barefoot club I want to join too!
I am thrilled with my barefoot horse, and cant imagine puting a shoe on him ever. He did have shoes at one time - and long toes, and really underrun heels,and the hoof wall was pulled away from the sole, and his bars were growing zig zagged on his soles because his former owners just stopped caring, and he was standing at a rescue center because someone stepped in to keep him from going to auction with the information "incurably lame".
I have posted pictures of him moving on the eventing board. Is it just barefoot? Is it the difference in lifestyle? A combination? What I do know, is that we are planning to event next year, and NO ONE that sees him would ever guess that he was considered so lame that he was going to to the meat man. He handles all kinds of terrain, jumping, galloping along thin, winding trails, etc.
For my horse, this has made a complete difference in his life. For a horse that loves to jump as much as he does, this allows him to do it, and stay SOUND.
That being said, I have friends that shoe, and never in a million years would tell them what they should or should not do. I just know that as a horse "mom" I had to make decisions that would be best for the 2 of us, so I took it upon myself to become educated so that I could make as an informed of a decision as possible. This worked out better than my expectations - I was hoping he would be a good trail horse...he is, but he'll also be an awesome eventer.

[LMH]

Hey Character-how high are you two jumping? Just curious-I love these stories! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
I know there are prelim'ers going barefoot.... and some might be sound. But when it comes to going prelim and up into the Three Day, I wonder how wise it is to pull shoes for so much pounding.

I guess my question is more theory about the nature of the foot for the job... is it *wise* to go barefoot when you're talking bout a Three Day Event?

martha

_make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots._
Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish _& the _ NervousNellieWorryWart*_ cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
http://www.adifferentcolor.com
My Album for your viewing entertainment.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, barefoot is much easier on their legs and feet. Concussion is dramatically reduced without shoes, and you get excellent traction so you don't need studs, which certtainly put a lot of strain and torque on joints.
Here is an example of typical TBs with typical OTTB feet doing 3-day.
http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23.htm

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[mcmIV]

crowne - I don't disagree with you, but I have some lingering 'disonance' about this subject...

I have known a handful of horses that are long term barefooters but moving to harder work (ie galloping frequently on hard/rocky terrain) get too foot sore to be successful without shoes.

So while I like the barefoot idea, I still look at my previous example of the prelim horse who started stopping barefoot but jumped 100% the day he got shoes back on. He was SOUND, he was fine through the winter and spring conditioning, but by summertime on hard ground at the upper levels he got ouchy.

How do you explain that?

Its the same shoer, the same trim - just the application of the shoe and addition of studs in poor footing.

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
http://www.adifferentcolor.com
My Album for your viewing entertainment.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mcmiv

[CrowneDragon]

I cannot explain it as I haven't seen the horse and I don't know all of the circumstances. If the horse just had a regular pasture trim that is going to make things difficult. A horse with no concavity, excessive sole, and long bars would be like driving in mud with racing tires. How much concavity did he have? Heel height? Toe length? Angles? Hailines? Bars folded over or straight? Did he have skid brakes put in? How big?
There are too many variables to just pull an idea out of the sky.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[slb]

CD....how much concavity...what should be done if the horse has a flat sole? How do you determine what "excessive" sole is? How long is too long in the bars? What is the correct toe length...does that apply to all horses? What is the correct heel height...does that apply to all horses? Can't bars be folded over and straight? And, please define skid brakes.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[CrowneDragon]

A horse that grows a healthy foot will not truly be flat soled. If you have a horse that has a truly flat foot because of a badly dropped coffin bone(or deformed coffin bones or whatever), then you ask for a bit of concavity, never touching the area of the sole that protects the coffin bone. Most horses appear flat soled, but when you pull the side of their frog back they have a dirt line that is very deep next to the frog and there is a lot of sole there that needs shaping. A horse that is questionable should have at least lateral rads so you can really se how much sole there is there.
Excessive sole is dead sole that is usually cracked and often peeling away. In a horse receiving adequate exercise on proper terrain it would be worn off, but in captive horses it usually needs assistance in its removal, otherwise the foot no longer can have a subtle “pumping” action, it is flat across the bottom/ there is no concavity to give you mechanism. However, sole should not be taken just for the sake of taking out what isn’t absolutely needed.
The bars should slope downward as they travel from the wall toward the frog and should not be weight bearing at rest. Bars that are weight bearing are too long, as are folded over bars. They can cause pinching up into the corium when left to long, which often results in caudal heel syndrome/navicular syndrome, heel pain/ what have you.
There is no correct numeric measurement that is correct toe length for all horses….horses have different feet and are different sizes. The breakover should be brought back to facilitate angles of *around * 45 degree is in the fronts and 55 in the hinds, and 30 degree hairlines. No feet are the same so one horse may have correct front feet at 43 degrees, another may be correct at 49 or 50. It depends on that horse’s coffin bones, his feet, his legs, etc.
There is no set numeric standard that all horses must meet for heels either for the same reasons, but 3 cm is a rough guideline, as at the point you can hope to achieve close to ground parallel coffin bones, which assures greater weight distribution over the bottom of the coffin bone, instead of balancing it on its tip, like an arrow pointing into the horse’s sole, pressing on the corium.
No, bars cannot be folded over and straight. That is an oxymoron.
Skid brakes is the process of etching a groove alongside the horses bars to help keep his front feet from skidding in front of him. They are added for traction. Very effective I might add, especially on mud and grass.
I hope this is read-able. I am falling asleep........

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[LMH]

Oh no---here we go again. Crowne Dragon-I am curious where you got your info from? This information sounds suspiciously like that from Dr Strasser.

How do you know front angles should be around 45? When Jaime Jackson did his wild horse studies, the majority of the horses had front angles around 52-56, hinds were 56-60.

The only reason I mention this, is my three horses had a trim that put them all at 45. All 3 became lame, one for over 6 weeks. X rays revealed the 45 deg angle was improper for all 3-actually the one that was most lame is correct at nearly 54 deg.

Are you certified as a farrier or trimming?

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Character:
[QUOTE] http://www.barefoothorse.com

Look here for some badly unbalanced feet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, in the before pictures. And yes, in the pics where readers send in the pics for advice on how to make them better. Those are before pics. Sheesh.
QUOTE]
Look again.

[Lookout]

[/QUOTE]
How do you know front angles should be around 45? When Jaime Jackson did his wild horse studies, the majority of the horses had front angles around 52-56, hinds were 56-60.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The toe angle of the front coffin bone is 45. The toe angles on JJ's wild specimens' fronts were 45. The bottom edge of the toe being abraded makes them appear steeper.
[QUOTE]
The only reason I mention this, is my three horses had a trim that put them all at 45. All 3 became lame, one for over 6 weeks. X rays revealed the 45 deg angle was improper for all 3-actually the one that was most lame is correct at nearly 54 deg.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not surprising. You can't arbitrarily impose a 45 degree angle on the feet, without taking the rest of the foot into consideration. There may be pathologies that would prevent this from being able to be applied in a first trim.

[LMH]

Lookout-I think your comment is exactly the trouble with giving a standard number for trimming a foot---all feet and pasterns and coffin bones are not the same.

yes there is a "standard" or "norm" that maybe the majority of the horses have-but not EVERY horse.

What my trimmer does is base the angles off the new hoof growth...the goal being to get the whole hoof to eventually match that new growth angle. Wouldn't you know this also matches the pastern angle...for each horse this angle is slightly different. And again not one is 45 deg.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[*SERAPH*]

My horse has never had shoes on so I guess I can call myself a member of this team as well! He's four years old and has never had a trim, either. He always wore his feet down naturally. However, he is now stalled and in training and I do need to have his feet trimmed now.

I am looking for someone experienced in the barefoot trim (not the Strasser method!) in upstate South Carolina. Could someone give me some names? I hope so as I do not want to have to try and "educate" a farrier that doesn't know how.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Lookout-I think your comment is exactly the trouble with giving a standard number for trimming a foot---all feet and pasterns and coffin bones are not the same.

yes there is a "standard" or "norm" that maybe the majority of the horses have-but not EVERY horse.

What my trimmer does is base the angles off the new hoof growth...the goal being to get the whole hoof to eventually match that new growth angle. Wouldn't you know this also matches the pastern angle...for each horse this angle is slightly different. And again not one is 45 deg.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually all coffin bones are the same - they may vary in size but not in geometry. They all are 45 degrees in front (unless they have been damaged).
It "happens" to match the pastern angle because the pastern angle is variable - it adjusts itself to the angle of the coffin bone and the height of the heels. Lower the heels and voila the pastern angle has changed.

[LMH]

Perhaps I mispoke again--When I said it matched, I meant the angle was not broken back or forward. Straight line--is that more clear?

I was also referring to the fact some could have damaged coffin bones as well, or irregular bony columns or any number of things.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Oh no---here we go again. Crowne Dragon-I am curious where you got your info from? This information sounds suspiciously like that from Dr Strasser.

How do you know front angles should be around 45? When Jaime Jackson did his wild horse studies, the majority of the horses had front angles around 52-56, hinds were 56-60.

The only reason I mention this, is my three horses had a trim that put them all at 45. All 3 became lame, one for over 6 weeks. X rays revealed the 45 deg angle was improper for all 3-actually the one that was most lame is correct at nearly 54 deg.

Are you certified as a farrier or trimming?

_"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. _ --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will concur with Lookout. The angles in Jacksons studies were indeed shallower than these, but the toes were quite dubbed maiing them appear steeper.
How many hooves and legs have to disected? I have done a LOT and the angles on all are the same or very, very close. Yes, different sizes, but angles are nearly identical from a pony foal to an 18h draft. That is unless there is gross deformation, which is rare.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Perhaps I mispoke again--When I said it matched, I meant the angle was not broken back or forward. Straight line--is that more clear?

I was also referring to the fact some could have damaged coffin bones as well, or irregular bony columns or any number of things.

_"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. _ --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What is an "irregular" bony column?
At any rate, there is usually some amount of joint adaptation in horses who hae had high heels and contraction for a length of time. At first, their angles may appear broken back until the necessary attachments decontract and everything "settles."
Even horses with damaged coffin bones will benefit from a proper trim, that emphasizes a ground parallel position. The feet I have dissected from horses who have had long term high heels often have lost the tip of their coffin bones. I dissected a horse a few weeks ago who had high heels and EDSS shoes with large wedge rails. Underneath the packing and pads on his feet his coffin bones were about a mm away from coming through his sole. He was no doubt a founder case. What is the logic behind taking a horse who has rotation, whose coffin bone is coming close to poking through the sole, and making his angles steper, thus pushing the coffin bone into the sole more? No doubt a player in this horse's death.
Yes, most of my info is from Dr. Strasser and Martha Olivo, as well as many of the other barefoot studies and many done by traditional farriers.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[LMH]

So Jackson's studies found all horses should have a 45 deg hoof angle...yet in his book he is against this? So if I understand this, in his book where he says most of his studies found wild horse hooves had front angles of 52-56, he is ....just lying? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

That simply makes no sense to me...but I am willing to have it explained.

Now if I understand this completely, if you trim a horse to 45 deg-like my old horse polo---and then you take xrays--and these xrays show a broken back axis so severe the the edges of bone are touching, leaving no joint space whatsover, I am better to keep the 45 deg angle, keep the horse sore as opposed to changing the angle to get rid of a broken back axis. See, I did exactly what you said not to-had him trimmed to put his hoof angle less steep-and now he is sound...but that would be wrong since his front angle is no longer 45degrees?

Honestly-I would love for someone to clear this up for me, since I am missing something.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[LMH]

Also I am curious which traditional farriers advocate the same cookie cutter angles as Strasser and Olivio-do you have a copy or link to their studies and findings?

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[LMH]

"irregular bony column"-I have xrays of one-happy to email it to you, along with the written assessment of the vet and a certified trimmer.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[Lookout]

LMH I would like to help you, but I can't make out your horse's situation from your description - starting with "trimming his hoof to make his angle less steep". Likewise with the "straight line" angle. The pastern angle changes with the height of the heel. If you set the toe angle based on the "new growth" growing out, that was just determined by the other things you had set in place previously, like heel height. There is no external guideline to go by.

As to JJ's problem, I don't know what he says in his book, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was measuring the angle based on the abraded toe at the bottom.

[LMH]

I feel like we are talking circles here-probably due to the one-sidedness of BB's-as oppose to interactive conversation. Everytime I post something that makes perfect sense in my brain and to those I have live conversations with, the words get quoted and put back at me-making it appear like I have no clue.

I started this thread because I was pleased with my horses progress...I certainly didn't intend to have every statement put back at me.

Admittedly, I am not a farrier, have not read countless books on the topic, but I am not as ignorant as these posts are making me appear. A law degree does give one some ability to research a topic, any topic whether formerly educated in that topic or not...

Hey-if someone wants to trim with the guidlines set out by Strasser, Olivio, Jackson, AFA or whomever-great-if your horse is sound! More power to you.

I had a trim, based on Olivio's standards (ok quote me and tell me she has no standards), my horses were lame. All 3 had xrays showing they were not balanced (quote me again and say it wasn't the trim). A "Jackson" style trimmer has been doing them and they are all sound-except the old fart that killed his hock in the pasture-and he is even sound-ish now. (quote me again and say there is no Jackson style).

I am trying to have an educated and educating conversation here-if folks don't wanna play nice, go to another sand box. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[This message was edited by LMH on Oct. 27, 2003 at 07:57 AM.]

[slb]

OK Outlook...I'll bite...since this thread is somewhat educational in natura, how about you picking a couple of the "unbalanced" trims (not the before ones) off the www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com) site and explaining what you see. I think it would be beneficial to everyone interested to get a better understanding of what you perceive as "unbalanced" and why.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrowneDragon:
A horse that grows a healthy foot will not truly be flat soled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you recognise that is a large difference in feet regarding concavity, especially between breeds...in other words say from a draft to an Arab?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you have a horse that has a truly flat foot because of a badly dropped coffin bone(or deformed coffin bones or whatever), then you ask for a bit of concavity, never touching the area of the sole that protects the coffin bone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you "ask" for concavity?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most horses appear flat soled, but when you pull the side of their frog back they have a dirt line that is very deep next to the frog and there is a lot of sole there that needs shaping. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This dirt line is the juction between the solar corium and the frog (do I understand that correctly?). So, if you are saying that this is the baseline for detecting the depth of the sole, that is fine, but are you saying that it is the baseline for determining how much sole should be removed? Do you remove it down to that line or just slightly above it? Are there other landmarks in determining how thick/thin the sole should be (without rads)?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Excessive sole is dead sole that is usually cracked and often peeling away. In a horse receiving adequate exercise on proper terrain it would be worn off, but in captive horses it usually needs assistance in its removal, otherwise the foot no longer can have a subtle “pumping” action, it is flat across the bottom/ there is no concavity to give you mechanism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But, how much concavity gives you mechanism? Should it be similar in all horses? Could you elaborate on how this mechanism works?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The bars should slope downward as they travel from the wall toward the frog and should not be weight bearing at rest. Bars that are weight bearing are too long, as are folded over bars.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How was this determined? What research indicates this?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The breakover should be brought back to facilitate angles of *around * 45 degree is in the fronts and 55 in the hinds, and 30 degree hairlines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excuse me...the "breakover" should be brought back? Aren't you refering to the toe, not the point of breakover?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is no set numeric standard that all horses must meet for heels either for the same reasons, but 3 cm is a rough guideline, as at the point you can hope to achieve close to ground parallel coffin bones, which assures greater weight distribution over the bottom of the coffin bone, instead of balancing it on its tip, like an arrow pointing into the horse’s sole, pressing on the corium.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmm....at what point is the coffin bone ground parallel...while standing, fully weight bearing, somewhere inbetween? The question I have about a ground parallel coffin bone is, if the back of the coffin bone is supported by the digital cushion, and the digital cushion is robust as it should be, wouldn't this give some slight raise (say 3-5 degrees) to the back of the CB? How could it not?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, bars cannot be folded over and straight. That is an oxymoron.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How so. It is my understanding that bars curve as a result of excess forces applied to the rear of the bar as the heels come forward (as in contracted or underrun heels). Long bars that fold over are simply getting excessive force from too much contact with the ground. In ultimate natural wearing conditions, these would simply errode away as the sole would. Excess bar material in this manner can also be a result of an insult to the the foot and a way for the foot to protect itself. This has been seen on horses living on hot desert sand as well as some long time founder cases. It has been found that when the foot no longer needs this excess, that it sloughs it in a manner similar to natural sole exfoliation. However, as we both agree, this is not always possible in domestic conditions.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Skid brakes is the process of etching a groove alongside the horses bars to help keep his front feet from skidding in front of him. They are added for traction. Very effective I might add, especially on mud and grass.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm....that is not my understanding...actually, this is first time that I have heard this perspective. I thought that skid brakes were the application of cutting a slight "scoop" in the quarters that emulates those found on mustand hooves? Guess I missed the boat on that one.

Thanks for your time CD...you presented some excellent information so that I think everyone can understand it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[pippi]

Well I decided to go barefoot with my boys. Found a "natural trim" farrier and on Friday afternoon he came. Today one of my horses is lame. This horse has never been lame in 12 years. His feet look like crap, the guy didn't file the hooves to even anything out, there's a gouge out of the right front toe (the foot he's lame on) and he is standing on his frogs.

I'm so angry I can hardly see straight. I've taken photos, I hope they turn out. There is nothing balanced or level about these trims.

You must be that which you wish to become. ~Ghandi~

[slb]

Pippi...please don't lump all "natural" trimmers together. Just as with any farrier....or any thing else for that matter...there are those who can recite theory, those who truly understand theory, those who can apply, and those who can't. You need both a scientific, mechanical and artistic mind...IMO, that is a rare breed.

Please post the pics so we can see. Did you question why the gouge out of the toe? Sounds like this guy is just plain incompetent. He certainly isn't applying what he learned...if he was taught...regardless of who taught him.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Also I am curious which traditional farriers advocate the same cookie cutter angles as Strasser and Olivio-do you have a copy or link to their studies and findings?

_"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. _ --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said, neither Strasser or Olivo state that every horse must have exactly the same angles. Feet are all different, angles will be different. There are many well known farriers that advocate a ground parallel coffin bone, and the basis angular guidelines will go a long way toward achieving that parallel position.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
So Jackson's studies found all horses should have a 45 deg hoof angle...yet in his book he is against this? So if I understand this, in his book where he says most of his studies found wild horse hooves had front angles of 52-56, he is ....just lying? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

That simply makes no sense to me...but I am willing to have it explained.

Now if I understand this completely, if you trim a horse to 45 deg-like my old horse polo---and then you take xrays--and these xrays show a broken back axis so severe the the edges of bone are touching, leaving no joint space whatsover, I am better to keep the 45 deg angle, keep the horse sore as opposed to changing the angle to get rid of a broken back axis. See, I did exactly what you said not to-had him trimmed to put his hoof angle less steep-and now he is sound...but that would be wrong since his front angle is no longer 45degrees?

Honestly-I would love for someone to clear this up for me, since I am missing something.

_"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. _ --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, as I already said, it was noted that if these feet didn't have such severely dubbed toes, their angles were quite a bit shallower. That is, the horn grew out at a shallower angle. The measurements states in the book did not take this into accound, but if you look at the hoof speciments, it is easy to see.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[CrowneDragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I feel like we are talking circles here-probably due to the one-sidedness of BB's-as oppose to interactive conversation. Everytime I post something that makes perfect sense in my brain and to those I have live conversations with, the words get quoted and put back at me-making it appear like I have no clue.

I started this thread because I was pleased with my horses progress...I certainly didn't intend to have every statement put back at me.

Admittedly, I am not a farrier, have not read countless books on the topic, but I am not as ignorant as these posts are making me appear. A law degree does give one some ability to research a topic, any topic whether formerly educated in that topic or not...

Hey-if someone wants to trim with the guidlines set out by Strasser, Olivio, Jackson, AFA or whomever-great-if your horse is sound! More power to you.

I had a trim, based on Olivio's standards (ok quote me and tell me she has no standards), my horses were lame. All 3 had xrays showing they were not balanced (quote me again and say it wasn't the trim). A "Jackson" style trimmer has been doing them and they are all sound-except the old fart that killed his in the pasture-and he is even sound-ish now. (quote me again and say there is no Jackson style).

I am trying to have an educated and educating conversation here-if folks don't wanna play nice, go to another sand box. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

_"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. _ --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I cannot say what happened with you horses, as I never saw them. However, if radical changes are to be made on hooves(angles especially), especially non-pathological hooves, they should not be done in one foul swoop. One big problem is that many trimmers try totrim to clinical specs in a non clinical setting. That often is counterproductive. As I also said, it takes a while with a correct trim for any joint adaptaion to relax, ligaments and tendons to decontract, etc.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As I said, neither Strasser or Olivo state that every horse must have exactly the same angles. Feet are all different, angles will be different. There are many well known farriers that advocate a ground parallel coffin bone, and the basis angular guidelines will go a long way toward achieving that parallel position.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CD, could you post a couple of names of traditional farriers that advocate ground parallel P3? Thanks.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[CrowneDragon]

""Do you recognise that is a large difference in feet regarding concavity, especially between breeds...in other words say from a draft to an Arab?""


I never said there wasn't....that is not what we were talking about. However, you will usually find that most horses, when properly trimmed, have about the same amount of total concavity(say, a measurement from wall height to the deepest concavity). In an upright Arab foot it will look deeper than in a flatter, WB foot, as the concavity is more gradual.

""How do you "ask" for concavity?""


I should have said, just add a slight bit of concavity by taking a minimal amount of sole, in order to encourage mechanism. If you really have doubts though, you shouldn't touch anything without rads.

""This dirt line is the juction between the solar corium and the frog (do I understand that correctly?). So, if you are saying that this is the baseline for detecting the depth of the sole, that is fine, but are you saying that it is the baseline for determining how much sole should be removed? Do you remove it down to that line or just slightly above it? Are there other landmarks in determining how thick/thin the sole should be (without rads)?""

The dirt line is the junction of the frog and the sole. Many trim all the way to the dirtline. I see no reason to take sole just for the sake of taking sole, although it can be very helpful, provided the horse has ample sole. I usually leave a bit more and don't go completely to the line, but still maintain good concavity.

A good guideline for concavity to to take the sole around the frog tapered to close to the dirtline, then blend your way up the sole, to the wall, so you have a gradual slope. Take just a slight bit at the tip of the frog, and nothing at the toe,over the tip coffin bone. Without concavity you cannot get the blood pumping mechanism, almost suction cup effect, as the foot draws flatter as the horse moves at speed, then contracts as it comes non-weightbearing. Without good circulation through the foot you cannot have a healthgy foot. Instead of the coffin bone almost sitting over a sling that can rise and fall as the horse moves, a horse with excess sole that is flat at the ground, the bone slams into the corium.

""How was this determined? What research indicates this?""
When the bars are long and weigh bearing they exert pressure in the rear of the foot above them as the horse moves. Over time in a captive horse who doesn't wear down his feet natually and does not have his bars trimmed, they can grow down no more, so then they start to be pushed up into the foot, pinching the caudal portion of the foot.
""Excuse me...the "breakover" should be brought back? Aren't you refering to the toe, not the point of breakover?""


Does not the lengtn of the horses toe, in part, determine breakover? Why would we not want to have a horse with a long toe.....his breakbover is stretched forward. We shorten the toe to shorten the point of breakover. Same song.

Im will finsh this later. I have to go to work.
To be continued.......



""

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[CrowneDragon]

""How so. It is my understanding that bars curve as a result of excess forces applied to the rear of the bar as the heels come forward (as in contracted or underrun heels). Long bars that fold over are simply getting excessive force from too much contact with the ground. In ultimate natural wearing conditions, these would simply errode away as the sole would. Excess bar material in this manner can also be a result of an insult to the the foot and a way for the foot to protect itself. This has been seen on horses living on hot desert sand as well as some long time founder cases. It has been found that when the foot no longer needs this excess, that it sloughs it in a manner similar to natural sole exfoliation. However, as we both agree, this is not always possible in domestic conditions.


Bars cannot be folded over and straight at the same time. A bar that is straight is a little column, which can take force vertically. One which is folded over is taking presure horizontally(on its side), and is pressing into the sole, which can become quite painful. Sometimes it will just fold over and can be cut off, sometimes it will fold over and grow into the sole, especially in horses who have been in pads for a length of time, in which case the frog and sold melt together and the bar has to be dug out.

""Hmmm....that is not my understanding...actually, this is first time that I have heard this perspective. I thought that skid brakes were the application of cutting a slight "scoop" in the quarters that emulates those found on mustand hooves? Guess I missed the boat on that one.""

Skid brakes are a traction device that are etched in front of the bars, sometimes the bars themselves. Scooping out the quarters so that they are non-weightbearing at rest is something else entirely. This is also a method that allows for better mechanism, as the foot draws flat at speed.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[CrowneDragon]

CD, could you post a couple of names of traditional farriers that advocate ground parallel P3? Thanks.


One name that comes to mind is Michael Savoldi at CA Poly Pomona. He has very interesting ideas on Uniform Sole Thickness that follow the ground parallel coffin bone theory.

I must add that I do stray somewhat from traditional Strasser guidelines in this area. I believe that some(not all) of what is called a ground parallel coffin bone is actually a bone with a slight angle sometimes, pushed up in rear *slightly* by the digital cushion.
*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[This message was edited by CrowneDragon on Oct. 27, 2003 at 12:14 AM.]

[Character]

Grrrr. I hate this. Sorry, this is going to get long.
Let's please just answer the questions, without tyring to condemn anything. It's obvious from the posts who follows who's guidelines, when really LMH just wanted to hear observations and experiences. It is important that people be able to come to their own conclusions about things. All I can give is my observations and experiences, I am not an expert by any means.
LMH at this point we're starting over with jumping, not because of lameness, but because of some bad habits that he appears to have from his previous owners. All we're doing is poles right now, and will not progress further until we get it worked out. I know he's fine at BN heights, but we'll have to see with anything higher.
MMCV - I dont know why the horse moved better once the studs were in, but dont necessarily think it's a barefoot vs. shoe issue. All any one can do is guess. If I had to come to a logical conclusion for my horse, and based only on what information I have about your friend, which is very little, I would say that the ligaments that go down that back of the leg were a little weaker. This would explain how the studs provided support. Weaker meaning, that a healthy functioning leg would have equal flexion and relaxation phases. In order to dissipate force of any kind, the force must be absorbed and then sent back OUT into the earth, via a fully functioning contraction and relaxation. I would think that this horse without shoes would show an occasional "rocking" back onto the hindquarters with a very subtle sinking of the pasterns which would not be noticeable except to someone really watching. Take a bite of hay on the ground, rock back on the fronts, rock to the back, then straighten up again. Almost imperceptable. The force doesnt just HIT a certain spot in the body, it goes throughout the body, and then goes back down into the earth again. This is why a drunk survives a crash, and the sober people dont. Their whole body absorbs the impact, and then sends it back out - the sober person goes "oh sh%t," and tenses, and the crash finds a resistent point and then focuses it's pressure there. The reason why I think rear ligaments, is because IF they cannot absorb the shock and dissipate it throughout the body and then send it back down through the leg into the foot and into the earth, the shock stops at the point of the foot. The foot therefore, and all the bones within and immediately above it, take all the pressure. "yoor horse shows pain according to the testers" Makes you think about the information on dirt in the feet. Studs would keep those ligaments from over flexing, as well as providing a dissapation point - DIRECTLY into the earth, by the very nature of their construction. Also by the very nature of their construction, the forces would not be good for a twisting movement for the internal structures, but would be beneficial for the rest of the leg. The pressure will still not travel throughout the body, but it will keep it from being concentrated in the bottom of the foot. It would scatter. Physics.
The other thing that seems to NEVER be addressed is a coffin bone that tips backwards, which is what I think was the major problem with my guy's LF - it seems to me that standing straight and taking a radiograph is one thing...but what about when the horse moves?
I would bet that the "coffin joint" moves a lot more than a stable radiograph would imply. Whether it is weightbearing or not. It's called a joint for a reason. Ever really watch your horse move over rocks? Shoed or not? Downhill? Uphill? Watch and observe and come to your own conclusions. With pracice you will be able to see where the force is exerted on any horse. You'll also be able to see where it stops. That will be the area most prone to injury, although it will not neccesarily be the first place a horse has problems. In fact, it's been my observation that the strongest areas show the most problems first. This explains why lameness issues come and go. The horse hurts the neck, to compensate, his SI joint takes more pressure, because all of us back a horse before their spine is ready so that goes, and his hocks take all of it, so he transfers it back to the shoulders, which cant handle the strain so they send it back down the front legs, and then the owner says. "My horse is showing heel pain"

Okay, so...my own observations.
Soles: My horse had horribly ridged and cracked and crinkled soles. I still didnt trim them, mainly because I wanted to see what would happen if I didnt. So far, his feet are looking great. I have seen many other people trim soles, their horses are sore when mine is not. In both cases, they seem to straighten out which brings me to...
Flat soles: As they straightened out, his soles really flattened. His rears look great, but his fronts still appear slightly flat, although they are starting to draw up. However, he is walking soundly, even over gravel.
Cleaning feet: I rarely clean his feet. Occasionally I do, just to get a look at what's going on. Otherwise I leave them. I'll look for rocks, but that's it, and will leave small pebbles. He does better when his feet are packed with dirt.
Snubbed toes: My horse snubbs his toes naturally - he's due for a trim, because the last few days he's been dragging his toes over any hard surface. I have a feeling that when this horse is done, he'll have virtually no hoof. That's just him.
Flares: When I got him, the hock on his RR was very odd looking, and about 1/2 the size of his LR hock. This foot, after 8 months, is starting to flare, but not chipping. I'll wait to see what happens naturally before I decide to do anything with it. When I got him he couldnt canter, he hopped. The rr doesnt go as far underneath him as the LR...but this is improving. There is one slight chip along the quarter on the right side of this rr hoof. That's it. I wont do anything until I see how he begins to balance it out.
Trims: I dont trim until I notice a definite reason to. I believe that if I rasped or trimmed more often I would have better results. I'm too inconsistent, and want to ride rather than rasp, and honestly, enjoy seeing what happens naturally, because I'm still experimenting and trying to figure this all out.
Bars: I used to believe that I should take the bars down...determined by what he was in - soft or hard ground. Then I read a study where they were talking about the bars folding over and providing sole support. Hmmmmm. Dont know what I think about this, but I havent touched his bars since, because I wanted to see. At the point where I did this, they were already growing straight, but I noticed something interesting. The bars are growing straight, but now are suddenly folding over like a paper airplane into the sole along the quarters. When this happened he went sound on gravel. At the same time we got less of a space between the frog and the rest of the sole.
Uhmmmm...heels: Had a "mad trimmer" take his heels down right away. shoot. Still paying for it, as it doesnt make sense for shock absorption. I figure that this has really set me back, especially for a horse that will jump.
Overtretch anything, and you'll run into problems. Experience has showed me that you make changes very, very gradually - my own horse as well as others.
8 months after having his heels suddenly dropped (didnt want it, just happened), my horse still hasnt overcome it. Now I have to deal with the that, and it was totally avoidable.
I have many, many more experiences to share, but this is way too long.
Anyway, this is my take on it for the moment.

[LMH]

Wow Character-great observations...thanks for writing all that.

To me the interesting observation is the bars. Did anything else change when he went sound on gravel other than the bars folding over?

I will be curious to hear what others have to say about it.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[Hopeful Hunter]

OK....how does, or can it, the barefoot trim concept apply to horses with diagnosed thin soles and/or hoof walls?

I'm talking about the ones that you can bruise with a hoofpick, or whose feet chip up so badly they cannot walk. Usually I've seen the horses go better shod, rarely after a year or more the chipping may lessen.

Are they simply genetically disposed to needing "help" with their feet beyond barefoot? I'm curious but I'm not one of those willing to have a horse spend a month or more hobbling around "getting used" to something which some people have mentioned.

[CrowneDragon]

Hopeful Hunter
This is why there is a transition period, where your horse may go sore. To get beter quality hooves, your horse must have the right environment, and a good trim that maximized circulation. Without a good trim, adequate moisture, and exercise on proper surfaces, you cannot get hoof mechanism. Without mechanism, you cannot get good circulation. Without circulation, you cannot get good quality feet, which may take a year to grow down. On all of my horses I noticed that when a full new hoof grew down after switching to the Strasser trimming, their walls were about 50% thicker, if not more.
Transitionig is different from horse to horse, may be long or short, dramatically painful, or just mildly ouchy over sharp gravel. It is just one of thoise things that must be worked through, and can be made easier by removeable hoof boots.

*CrowneDragon*
As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

[slb]

From jy experience, why not "transition" in shoes? A correct trim with the application of a shoe will help to get better growth on the hoof wall and more thickness in the sole. Then, when the horse is sound enough, it can go barefoot and a painful transition is not necessary. IMO, some feet need support until they get enough strong growth to provide the support the foot needs. While I believe that genetics plays a role, it has been my experience that many of the thin walled TBs that we see are more of a result of poor trimming/shoeing than of genetics.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[SBT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrowneDragon:
Hopeful Hunter
This is why there is a transition period, where your horse may go sore. To get beter quality hooves, your horse must have the right environment, and a good trim that maximized circulation. Without a good trim, adequate moisture, and exercise on proper surfaces, you cannot get hoof mechanism. Without mechanism, you cannot get good circulation. Without circulation, you cannot get good quality feet, which may take a year to grow down. On all of my horses I noticed that when a full new hoof grew down after switching to the Strasser trimming, their walls were about 50% thicker, if not more.
Transitionig is different from horse to horse, may be long or short, dramatically painful, or just mildly ouchy over sharp gravel. It is just one of thoise things that must be worked through, and can be made easier by removeable hoof boots.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, to me that is TOTALLY unacceptable. No trim is a good trim if it causes pain. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Would we tolerate this if a "mainstream" farrier put special shoes on a horse and said, "This will hurt your horse until he gets used to it?" Do we EVER tolerate "hot" nails? After all, once the hoof grows some more it will eventually stop hurting...

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the logic in putting a horse through pain for ANY reason. I have perused all the barefoot trim websites, and all have some sort of speech about "owner committment." So, if you try the barefoot trim and hate having your horse in pain, you are NOT a committed, caring owner??? BIG RED FLAG as far as I'm concerned. My "mainstream" farrier has never asked me to commit to anything other than a regular trimming/shoeing schedule, AND he has never lamed my horse.

Laming a horse on purpose with the idea that he'll be better off after months of pain is, IMO, sadistic and inhumane. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT to say I am against barefoot horses, or even some of the special trims out there. I AM against trimming a horse's feet down to nubs and watching him hobble along for months on end while he "gets used to" this lifestyle. I AM against farriers who feel a five-day seminar is all a horse owner needs to learn a highly specialized trim.

And what really burns me is that ALL of them not only want to sell you their trim, but all of the gear you "need," including special boots and sole tougheners (WHY should this EVER be necessary if the trim is any good), videos, tools, and other overpriced merchandise. They take a good concept...the natrual trim...and turn it into a money machine. They encourage a cult-like following...shoes are evil, horse owners who utilize "mainstream" farriery are cruel and uncaring, and converts who later change their minds are simply not committed to their horse's health and well-being...and, in the two cases I've seen, have been violently accosted for it. After all, it's the natrual-trimmer's MISSION to intervene for these poor innocent animals with cruel, clueless owners! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm sorry. This is one "old new age" realm I will NOT touch with a 10-foot pole. My horses will go barefoot if I so choose, but I will NOT get sucked into thinking it is necessary for the process to be painful, and that I must attend clinics a and b, and buy products x,y, and z to make it all work.

My "mainstream" farrier has never asked me to put $1,000's of dollars in his pockets UP FRONT, nor has he asked me to watch my horse endure crippling pain with the idea that someday, maybe, he'll be better off...and if he's not, I'm SOL.

IMO, many of the "barefoot trims" out there are nothing but a good idea butchered and turned into a gimmick. Not something I condone. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Zipping up my ultra flame-retardant suit and grabbing the fire extinguisher... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif



"It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got." -Sheryl Crow

[LMH]

sbt-I can agree with alot of what you said-but again I hate seeing all trimmers committed to barefoot lifestyle lumped in the same group. The trimmer working with my horses does NOT feel there should be a painful transition, does NOT try to sell all kinds of hoof hardeners and boots-quite to the contrary.

Now ALL the barefoot sites refer to these things. And of course the ones that do should be avoided.

"I don't mind where people make 'whoopie', so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. --Mrs. Patrick Campbell (quote modified for young eyes)

[mcmIV]

I've watched 4 horses go through the "cult" trim.

They were all 4-legged lame for over a year. Sometimes they couldn't leave their stall because walking down the concrete aisle was too hard. You had to DRAG them, push them, pull them, give them frequent breaks in order to get them into the arena to hand walk.

The owners were VERY dedicated, tried really hard to stick to this method, went to seminars, spent countless hours working on this thing. I felt bad for them and worse for their horses.

I have no idea how it turned out. But it was hard to witness.

I agree with SBT, you can't expect an average horse person to attend a seminar and suddenly be a shoer. And these horses are cut to nubs.

They were constantly abcessing. This was "normal" according to their cult.

My own farrier felt like there was some merit to the shoeing theory, but he objectd to 1) the extremely short trim and 2) the fact that amatuer owners are attempting to do agressive trims with almost no training or practice.

I think there are multiple schools of barefoot thought. Like anything, staying away from the extreme is sometimes wise.

I think this subject is one which every horse owner has to decide for herself what the best approach is for her horse that she can live with.

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

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[Lookout]

I don't know which one is the cult trim, but if the horses were kept in stalls, obviously it's not the Strasser trim.

[mcmIV]

Well they were out 12 hours at night, fed in their stalls and on all day turnout between feeding.

Unfortunately the barn management had a real problem getting them to turn out due to the extreme pain and time it took to get each one out of his stall and back to turn out. Once out, they wouldn't move.

Something that should be kept in mind is that the world is not ideal. Part of the reason some here are not advocating barefeet for EVERY HORSE is because there are circumstances that require us as a smart owners to adapt to reality in order to make the best decisions for our horses.

If you own horses in an area where land is in limited supply, turn out is not 24 hours and stalls are a way of life, than the shoeing/trimming plan needs to be adapted to handle that reality.

martha

make something idiot-proof and they will just make better idiots.
Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

Custom Colored Stuff For your Horse Habit.
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My Album for your viewing entertainment.
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[katarine]

We all just have to do what suits us, and when.

Tried going barefoot on Mr. Crooked Legs a few years back, and our softest rockhard pasture was so hard he wouldn't walk to water. Shoes had to go back on- this after he had mult. abcesses in both fores. FUN!

This summer, same horse, still having hoof issues- but had access to knee deep bermuda pasture- pulled his shoes, crossed our hooves- and he was FINE- happily slogging along barefoot on that deep 'litter' - he's been barefoot now for four months, roughly,and he's doing great- I'll never go back to shoeing him, ever. He'll wear Old Macs.

I've now pulled my other QH's shoes- yeah he's tenderfooted but he'll live. He can get around on gravel, he's sound on pavement, and he's sound on dirt/grass.

"Shoot me now! Shoot me now!"
Bugs Bunny

[cassie01]

I just wanted to add my experience. My 2 year old filly has a club foot. From the time I bought her as a weanling until this April, she was trimmed by a "traditional" farrier. This guy did fantastic work on every other horse in the barn (upper level dressage horses, 1 navicular horse and several pasture pets) but my horse completely deteriorated in his hands. Her hoof went from being slightly upright when I bought her to a full-blown severely dished club foot. None of her feet were at all balanced either and they were ALL very contracted.

In April I moved for a new job and began using the "natural trimmer" that does several horses in this barn. It has only been six months, but my filly's feet have improved *dramatically*. Her hooves have all decontracted, her thrush has disappeared, her hind feet and the "normal" front foot are all very well balanced now, and the clubbed foot looks amazing - almost normal. The dish is gone, the heel is still slightly too upright and slightly contracted, but it is still progressing and gets better after every trim.

My horse has never been lame after being trimmed by the "natural trimmer". She has not abcessed. I have not been asked to purchase boots or follow any regimine. My horse is turned out during the day and in a stall at night. I schedule her trims for every 4 weeks due to the excessive growth of the heel on her clubbed foot, but the other horses trimmed by this guy on the farm are done every 6 weeks. (btw, as her feet are improving, that excessive heel growth is slowing and we are considering going to 5 weeks now) This guy also takes into consideration that I am but a poor groom and having my horse trimmed every 4 weeks is expensive and he charges me less.

Is this a permenant answer for my horse? Probably not. For right now it has been a godsend for her though. Is it right for every horse? I don't belive so. There are two horses in this barn trimmed by the same guy who haven't progressed like mine and I think would be better off going back to shoes.

I had taken photos of my horses feet before my move that I posted on the big hoof thread that was going this spring. A few weeks ago I found those photos on my computer and I cried. I could not belive how awful her feet were then and ***how much better*** they look now.

Just my experience.

[Hopeful Hunter]

Thank you for all the info. My OTTB has done well with shoes -- gaining hoof wall and going up a full size -- and having had one that had chronic foot problems, I'm not going to mess with success. Plus, I just can't stand to see a sore horse if it can be avoided/helped in any way, and I can't commit to causing that pain. But it's good to know the options and some of the reasoning out there that is available.

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrowneDragon:
Does not the lengtn of the horses toe, in part, determine breakover? Why would we not want to have a horse with a long toe.....his breakbover is stretched forward. We shorten the toe to shorten the point of breakover. Same song.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly...while I agree that simple shortening/dubbing of the toe will effect breakover...especially if it is realized at the end of the toe....the toe does not determine point of breakover, unless it is too long. Since the point of breakover does not reside at the end of the toe, if it is there and not addressed as it should be, then the horse will not breakover properly, heels take longer or never decontract, heels can and often do become or remain underrun, and the hoof continues to remain imbalanced, wanting to grow forward.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[miss moca]

cassie01,

You are lucky to find a good trimmer. A club footed horse at my barn went through quite a few farriers until one was found that had the right touch at helping this horse. Farrier science is an art, and some farriers or trimmers have a better conceptual eye then others.

You are having your horse trimmed on the same type of schedual that a shod horse should have. Your trimmer is doing a good job.

One of the big problems that I have seen is the "new age" trimmers insisting on trimming the horses once a week, and trimming away the "dead" sole, so the poor horses are walking, or limping is more like it, due to the soles being too thin and sensitive. No wonder so many of these horses are so lame.

In the days before all of this "special trim" nonsense, my pony went barefoot and was trimmed every six or so weeks by a farrier and was sound with no foot problems. My present horse was barefoot when I bought him. He was very ouchy without shoes. He was barefoot for quite a while before I bought him, and never got used to it. A lot of horses are not bred for feet, and my present fancy performance bred Quarter Horse is one of them. I am sure he would be fine barefoot if he lived in an environment of acres of grass fields, but he doesn't. I trail ride almost every day and the trails are full of rocks, coarse footing and paved roads. After five weeks his shoes are paper thin.

[Character]

LMH - Did anything else change when he went sound on gravel? ....not sure. They only folded over in the quarters, which is where we used to pare. There may have been other things, but basically, He went sound on gravel, so I decided to check his feet out. (I dont look at them that much - used to, now I dont) I just went "they're folding over in the quarters...where I used to pare...hmmmm...." There could have been other things, that's the first thing that jumped out at me.
He's overdue for a trim, so we'll be doing that soon. I'll take a good look then.
Another observation is this, which I find SUPREMELY interesting. He went from a fairly firm pasture to a very soft pasture. Within DAYS, it seemed like overnight, his feet "sprouted". The hoof wall grew like crazy, the bars suddenly pushed out. (less abrasiveness? a need for more support? I dont know.) Then the feet held dirt, but before they were pretty much self cleaning. They "grew" quickly, then leveled off, and stopped growing. This one totally gets me. This is overnight stuff. It's utterly fascinating. If it works this way...would it work in reverse? meaning, that if he was in incredibly abrasive terrain...would the foot adapt that quickly also? I think so, but cant find terrain abrasive enough so far to test it. We've ridden in course sand which wears down shoes, but only seems to burnish his feet, as well as cement and rocks and what not. It seems that his feet adapt - but I dont know why his do, and other horses do not. I do know that they adapt more quickly now, then they did in the begining.
Today we rode in the indoor arena, which is like...this weird playbox sand and FULL of rocks. I hate it. However, he never took a wrong step. I'm not sure I want to jump in it. If he wore a shoe, the pressure would be off his sole if he landed on a rock, barefoot, he would put all that pressure on that rock. Ouch. Is his foot adapting to the terrain? What would happen if I put him on a totally different terrain? I dont know.
Miss Moca - I think a lot of people lack common sense. Most people see only what they want to see also. Meaning...that even scientific experiments are under scrutiny, since it was discovered that researchers influence their findings. Hypothesis - prove/disprove. That's the "scientific" formula. (in a nutshell) Was there ever impartial observation? Who decided that this is the way we should all learn to do experiments?
I think this is why some people, even though their horses can't move, think their horses are doing well. They were told that this is okay, and they believe it so much, that they suspended their belief.
Observations are NOT supposed to be emotionally charged. Otherwise it's not an observation.
Guaranteed, those owners do not SEE what you see.

[EqTrainer]

SBT... here's some food for thought.

An unbalanced hoof more often than not is causing joint damage. If the farrier can correct the imbalance today BUT will make the horse sore for a few days after - isn't that better for the horse, in the long run, than taking months to make the same correction?

The pain they may incur today, under those circumstances, is nothing compared to the long term joint damage that is developing when they are unbalanced.

I cringe when I hear about corrections taking months and months... years and years. The real damage is higher up and you won't be seeing it for quite some time, but it is happening.
---
In general...

Something that always comes to mind when I read these threads... about all these horses that are so much sounder barefoot and move better - is that you must have had a really useless farrier. It's not the concept of shoes that is causing all these horses so many problems, but the application of them. Sure, if you put a too small shoe on the horse will suffer... and be better off barefoot. And so on and so on. But it's not the shoe... but the lack of knowledge behind putting it on the horse.

I can honestly say that every horse that comes thru our barn moves better when our farrier is done with them. I have seen him shoe "navicular" horses sound... seen him change conformation by making them comfortable on their feet (amazing how many horses are not really sickle hocked, or crooked legged, or croup high, or straight in the shoulder)... the foot is a *moldable* medium, to a certain degree, and a knowledgable farrier can manipulate it like putty.

He is amazing, yes, and we are blessed beyond belief to have him. But I do wonder... if he isn't so aggressive because he knows we are thinking long term, not just for today. I don't know how he is for clients who would freak out if he made their horse sore. He most likely would take the long route.

Incidentally, one of the worst 4 year old arthritis cases I have encountered was in a mare who was kept barefoot because it was "the natural thing" and "the best thing for her". Well, the farrier who barefoot trimmed her was a butcher and she paid the price in having changes at 4 years old. I do think she would have benefitted more from correctly applied shoes rather than a bad barefoot trim.

Those are my observations.... interesting? Who knows.

[SBT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EqTrainer:
SBT... here's some food for thought.

An unbalanced hoof more often than not is causing joint damage. If the farrier can correct the imbalance today BUT will make the horse sore for a few days after - isn't that better for the horse, in the long run, than taking months to make the same correction?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sore for a few days is one thing...but sore for weeks, or even MONTHS, is what I find so horrendously unacceptable. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Digging into the sole until you hit "live" tissue is akin to trimming your nails too short...except that WE don't have to walk on our nails! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

I also question how "natrual" these trims really are. Mustangs culled by the BLM are knocked out, vaccinated, and hooves TRIMMED. Why, if mustangs wear their feet so perfectly, do they arrive at BLM pens overgrown enough to need a trim? Every horse wears its feet differently, even mustangs. To base a whole trimming theory on observations of ONE unique breed in unique circumstances (and then apply it to all breeds in all circumstances) is, IMO, short-sighted and foolhardy.

Horses require different types of shoes; yet, because it's "natrual," some people seem to think all horses can benefit from ONE type of trim. It's just the same as slapping identical shoes on every horse.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the majority of these "natrual trimmers" are crackpots. It's not to say I wouldn't use one who DIDN'T want to lop off half my horse's foot, destroy his soles, and sell me lots of crap. If I came across a natrual trimmer who wasn't a fanatical extremist, I'd take them seriously. But I haven't met one yet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



"It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got." -Sheryl Crow

[Character]

Sorry, but I've seen no evidence that a newly brought in mustang needs to be trimmed.
None. And I've searched for everything.
However, I have noticed that my own horse suddenly sprouted hoof 48 HOURS after being moved from a large pasture where the horses moved constantly, to a dirt paddock.
His feet used to be fairly self maintaining, now they need trimming.
His toes stayed short, now they're elongating.
This is also supported by all the BLM information I've looked at.

[slb]

Character...that is my understanding also. BLM horses are not trimmed the day they arrive. They generally stay in pens for days or weeks before they are dealt with. In that time, from my understanding, their feet often undergo fast growth. However, IMO, it really shouldn't be assessed as fast growth, but normal growth with little to no wear in the confinment of the pens. In the wild, it is normal for them to travel up to 20 miles/day...oftentimes over harsh terrain, not grassy fields...their feet have to grow rapidly to compensate for this wear.

I for one believe in the study of wild feet to gain a better understanding of what is "natural". IMO, it would seem that we have spent so much energy breeding particular conformations and feet and applying incorrect trims, that we have lost sight of what a horse's feet should look like. Studying wild feet has lead us to better understand how the healthy foot works and why. From my experience, applying this information to trim techniques has proven invaluable if the method accounts for the differences between domestic and wild feet and life styles.

However, there is nothing natural about invading live tissue, leaving toes long to get the horse leveraged back on its heels, or afixing one set of measurements to all horses. While changes in boney column alignment may make a horse sore for a few days, trimming to attain "maximum mechanism" without any concept of what that is is IMO dangerous....especially on a foot that is already compromised and needs support to heal (such as navicular, founder and some underrun/contracted heels). To overlook the aspects of excessive mechanism is just as irresponsible as overlooking contraction and reduced mechanism. I would think that one who studies a method that induces "maximum mechanism" as fast as possible would also want to have a full understanding of what that was and if there were healthy limitations. There are plenty of ways that the foot looses integrity and has too much mechanism...strange, but these things are not taught by some of the new methods, yet they scoff farriers who are taught this?

Some interesting notes on wild vs domestic studies...

A couple of decades ago, a farrier named Duckett noted that there was a central point on the foot that the weight bearing should fall around - today this is a generally accepted (although little applied) theory called Duckett's Dot. Another farrier, Ovineck (www.hopeforsoundness.com), (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com),) noted this same point on wild horses (studied in 3 heards from 3 different terrains).

Ovineck also noted that there was a point of breakover that was not at the end of the toe (as most modern farriers and many barefoot trimmers apply it), but further back toward the tip of the coffin bone (which makes sense if you think about it). X-ray studies of domestic feet also confirmed that this was true of our riding horses. Exterior evidence is in the toe callous on healthy feet. Shoeing totally ignores this aspect of movement unless the application is altered to compensate or unless shoes with a point of breakover are correctly applied.

Many others have done comparison studies and found these things in common between wild and domestic feet: the heel buttresses were generally at the wildest part of the frog. The white line is a thin, tight line that parallels the hoof wall without stretching or seperation. The frog is robust and makes ground contact. The foot lands heel first. The sole does not give under thumb pressure. The front feet are round, not oval.

FWIW...although I understood the concept of standard application of shoes, I had not really thought much about it as most of our horses are barefoot. So, when I questioned my farrier husband about the problems with modern farriery and why so many horses are incorrectly shod, he didn't say much but took out a keg shoe and asked if this is what a front foot should look like? I replied, No, of course not! That shoe would be altered. He asked, Would it?

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

" BLM horses are not trimmed the day they arrive. They generally stay in pens for days or weeks before they are dealt with. In that time, from my understanding, their feet often undergo fast growth. However, IMO, it really shouldn't be assessed as fast growth, but normal growth with little to no wear in the confinment of the pens. In the wild, it is normal for them to travel up to 20 miles/day...oftentimes over harsh terrain, not grassy fields...their feet have to grow rapidly to compensate for this wear."

What do you suppose it is that allows for them to produce this rate of growth? Whatever it is, why wouldn't domestic horses be able to do this too? IOW, why do so many people say their horse can't be barefoot because they wear their feet more than they grow?

"I for one believe in the study of wild feet to gain a better understanding of what is "natural". IMO, it would seem that we have spent so much energy breeding particular conformations and feet and applying incorrect trims, that we have lost sight of what a horse's feet should look like."

So then, what *adjustments* are made by those doing the mustang trim on domestic horses who do not get 20 miles of movement per day?

[pippi]

I've been following this thread with much interest. Last Friday was the appointment with the "Natural Balance" farrier. My STD that hasn't been lame in the 12 years I've known him was lame on Saturday. Coincidence? His feet look nasty. The farrier didn't even rasp after he nipped huge chunks out. The lame foot has a large gap in the center of the toe. What the he** did I just pay for?

I do want to keep my horses barefoot. Several friends invested in boots for trailriding and their horses are doing well. So I will continue to pursue a good barefoot trim, but I won't pay extra for a NB farrier just to wind up with a lame horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

You must be that which you wish to become. ~Ghandi~

[Lookout]

That sounds pretty bad. Has he been barefoot before? What drew you to choose Natural Balance, (did you compare to other trim styles) and did you get information and references on this trimmer. Did s/he follow the NB guidelines or is it a poor trim according to NB? Why should this trim be so expensive?

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
What do you suppose it is that allows for them to produce this rate of growth? Whatever it is, why wouldn't domestic horses be able to do this too? IOW, why do so many people say their horse can't be barefoot because they wear their feet more than they grow? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a good question...I think that it becomes a matter of natural selection/evolution...the animal has adapted to its surroundings and the feet to their use/terrain. In domestic horses many variables come into play...genetics, nutrition, turnout/exercise, hoof care and/or rider/use. In the mustangs' world, natural selection has created feet and adaptation methods that are tailored to their enivronment and use. In domestic horses, breeders have selectively developed the horse...sometimes with little regard to the feet. IMO, we are making great strides in equine nutrition, but we have yet to find the best sources and combinations of food stuff to provide ultimate nutrition for what we have created. Mustangs evolved to stay fit on the diet provided by nature. We ask our horses to do everything from stand around in stalls to heavy work loads. Every horse is asked something different, every horse is used/ridden/driven differently...their feet/conformation may or may not be up to the task. Mustangs do the same amount and type of work (without human intervention) nearly everyday. Then there is the actual hoof management...sometimes correct, sometimes not, sometimes natural, sometimes needing extreme intervention, sometimes asking the horse to do more than the selectively (or not so - depending on your prespective) bred feet can adapt to. This results in some feet too compromised to grow much and others that have "normal" growth. It also results in feet that are of extremely good quality and are fairly self-maintaining and those that are slow growing or wear easily and need protection of some sort.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So then, what *adjustments* are made by those doing the mustang trim on domestic horses who do not get 20 miles of movement per day?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess that depends on the trim philosophy. Some believe that the foot must be trimmed constantly (2-3x/week or more) to emulate natural wear. Others believe in (or have means to accommodate) more natural wear by the horse. Thus allowing for longer times between trims. Then, the genetics/environment/and other human intervention must be considered. For instance, some horses can stand in a stall their whole life and only need to be trimmed 4 times/year, others twice that. Horses turned out may barely wear their feet and need to be trimmed often, others may naturally wear their feet and never need trimming. In short, a trim should be dictated by growth and wear, not by some "ideal". With all of this "natural" trim stuff and trying to emulate natural wear, I think that we should all become keenly aware of the possiblilites and differences between a hoof that grows rapidly as the result of "over" trimming and one that grows as a result of management/genetics.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

Pippi...that is by NB standards a poor trim and from the sounds of it doesn't follow NB guidelines at all. One of the biggest problems with all this "natural" stuff is that there are many who jump on the bandwagon hoping to make a name or money. However, they never study or follow the guidelines or reasoning behind them. This happens in all things and is something that we must all be aware of. It is a problem getting creditials and finding a good farrier/trimmer, but it can be done. If you select an NB trimmer from the list on their website, I would email them and let them know (with pics) that this trimmer doesn't follow their guidelines.

Probably the best thing to do is look for feet that you like and ask who the farrier is. It doesn't matter what the method is, there are good and bad in all circles.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
That's a good question...I think that it becomes a matter of natural selection/evolution...the animal has adapted to its surroundings and the feet to their use/terrain. In domestic horses many variables come into play...genetics, nutrition, turnout/exercise, hoof care and/or rider/use. In the mustangs' world, natural selection has created feet and adaptation methods that are tailored to their enivronment and use. In domestic horses, breeders have selectively developed the horse...sometimes with little regard to the feet. IMO, we are making great strides in equine nutrition, but we have yet to find the best sources and combinations of food stuff to provide ultimate nutrition for what we have created.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mustangs have not been around long enough to have any genetic differences from domestic horses. It takes far more than a few generations of selective breeding to alter DNA. There have been some mustangs whose DNA has been tested (Parelli was involved in this) and they were able to trace this band's lineage to a particular group of horses from the 17th c. brought by Spanish conquerors. There are known cases of horses being let loose on the range and being recognized months or years later with mustang herds, fitting right in.

The science that goes into the nutrition and feeding of domestic horses must be better than the sparse vegetation avaialable to mustangs on the range (right?) so from that perspective domestic feet should be better, not worse.

My point is that it is a mangament issue which includes trimming the feet if required and that most any horse is capable of growing enough foot no matter how much wear it gets not to need shoes.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So then, what *adjustments* are made by those doing the mustang trim on domestic horses who do not get 20 miles of movement per day?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess that depends on the trim philosophy. Some believe that the foot must be trimmed constantly (2-3x/week or more) to emulate natural wear. Others believe in (or have means to accommodate) more natural wear by the horse.
[/QUOTE]
The trim philosophy I am referring to is the Mustang Trim (as done by Jaime Jackson for example). There are not multiple ways of doing this trim, there is one trim to my knowledge. So, as it emulates the mustang foot, how does it account for the changes in environment and work level for the domestic horse, what if any accommodations are made.

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Mustangs have not been around long enough to have any genetic differences from domestic horses. It takes far more than a few generations of selective breeding to alter DNA. There have been some mustangs whose DNA has been tested (Parelli was involved in this) and they were able to trace this band's lineage to a particular group of horses from the 17th c. brought by Spanish conquerors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I guess this is a matter of perspective. From what I understand of genetics and evolution...while gross changes (say dinosaur to bird) takes possibly thousands of years, slight changes and natural selection take place all the time. A few generations?...I hardly think so, that would be 3000-4000 generations in the horses that have been here since the 17th century. There would definately be some changes induced through natural selection. This is not as simple an issue as you make it out to be. Changes are also made through other "selection" processes - natural or otherwise. For example, Kigers have had no alterations (except natural selection) in the past 300-400 years and are very distinctive in their "look" from other mustangs. While the majority of the herds in NV and other places have had a significant amount of input from cross-breeding with domestic horses and are a range of heights, colors and body types. Looking at domestic horses, we know that the TB was bred 300 years ago from "desert" horses. While the majority of desert breeds continue to have good feet, the TB was bred to alter its body (with little thought of its feet) and change it to "the fastest" horse. This has definately created a horse that is entierly different in its needs and genetics from the Kieger mustang (otherwise, DNA testing would have reported Kiegers as related to TBs or another breed, not Spanish horses). It was the hundreds of years of isolation that kept the Kiegers genetically "pure" to be able to parallel them to Spanish horses. Likewise, it is the 300 years of human guided selective breeding that keeps the TB in its own "class" and destinctly identifiable from other breeds (even without science). If you do not believe that horses can be genetically altered in a matter of a few generations, then you have not been in the world of horses long enough. In 40 years, I have seen Morgans, Percherons, QHs, Apps, Paints and other breeds greatly altered in size and shape. Even within the world of show, there are great differences between performance and halter horses...and few can do both equally well because of those differences.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are known cases of horses being let loose on the range and being recognized months or years later with mustang herds, fitting right in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And there was even a "wild" herd of around 50 horses in upstate NY that was produced solely from domestic horses...but that doesn't make them mustangs. I agree, many horses can be turned out with mustangs and fit in with no problem...but consider those horses. Are they OTTBs? Are they Fino show horses whose sole purpose in life is to gait with the slightest possible forward movement? Are they Impressive bred QHs that can only stand for halter classes? Most of those horses are range bred, from stock with roots in the mustang herds. They often already spent much of their time on terrain and feeding conditions similar to those of the mustangs they are running with. They grow dense hairy coats to keep them warm, they have good feet and are atuned to what nature provides in the way of food. Could a TB do this? Some maybe, most not. A TB would most likely freeze or starve in the first winter as its body is not genetically atuned to living on with a lack of food or in harsh conditions. Evidence of the differences that you say are impossible are seen everyday on this board..."hard keeper", "easy keeper", doesn't grow a winter coat (even with 24/7 turnout). IMO, there simply is no denying the genetic differences in horses...from breed to breed or from mustang to domestic. Are there genetic markers that take eons to change...sure..but there are likewise genetics that change everytime there is a new foal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The science that goes into the nutrition and feeding of domestic horses must be better than the sparse vegetation avaialable to mustangs on the range (right?) so from that perspective domestic feet should be better, not worse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From that perspective yes....but from another, we are finding that "one size fits all" doesn't really work for feeding horses. That is why a sudden rise in high fat/low carb feeds, in feeding less grain products and more forage, and in feeds that address work levels and age. These feeds simply didn't exist a decade ago...or were cutting edge if they did. So, we are making great strides, but look how long it took us to figure out that we needed to do this...so does that make this the right approach either...that is questionable. The majority of horse owners feed grain based products to meet nutritional needs...I always did. Then I got horses that couldn't have grain in any form, so I switched all my horses off their high quality feed....I saw changes in feet that I thought were so good that they couldn't get better. The new improved growth was unbelievable. So, from my perspective, there is a ways to go before we really discover what we should provide our horses in the form of nutrition.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My point is that it is a mangament issue which includes trimming the feet if required and that most any horse is capable of growing enough foot no matter how much wear it gets not to need shoes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I agree that a large number of horses improve with a change in management (especially when trimming includes correctly balancing and aligning the feet), it is not the only answer. Not every horse turned out 24/7 with good nutrition and correct trimming will attain good feet or grow dense winter coats. They simply can't.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The trim philosophy I am referring to is the Mustang Trim (as done by Jaime Jackson for example). There are not multiple ways of doing this trim, there is one trim to my knowledge. So, as it emulates the mustang foot, how does it account for the changes in environment and work level for the domestic horse, what if any accommodations are made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not a student of Jackson and only have read his first 3 books and discussed particular information with him through email. I didn't know that we were discussing Jackson in particular. When did we switch to that mode? There are probably others better versed in his method than I am. However, from my limited discussions with him and my interpretations of his writings, he offers (as do most) his wild horse studies as a guide, not as a dictate toward optimal foot form. Although he offers a basic trim guide, there are a great deal of variances in his trim, because it is based on learning to "read" the horse's foot....any method or timmer that does this will not be able to apply a "cookie cutter" approach as they know it will fail. I have never seen anything to indicate that there were particular strict ways to apply the trim. I do believe that he falls short in addressing some issues that he neglected in his studies and therefore, neglects them in his trim method. But, he is superior to some other methods in that he does account for addressing individuality.

Perhaps you would get a more appropriate answer by emailing him personally. I found him to be very accessible and he provided direct answers to my questions.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[pippi]

The area I now live in has very poor horse care options. Finally found a vet, but still searching for a farrier. This will be #4. I found out about him through a barn that I took a clinic at. Their horses looked good, but then again, I can't really tell unless it's awful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Why didn't he rasp the hoof to even it out? Why take so much toe off the first time? Yes, I did ask him these questions and I'm still confused. My STD was barefoot until age 5, I am beating myself up for ever putting shoes on him. His hooves WERE like iron. Now at 12 yo, the past farriers have managed to turn him into a lame, mule-footed, hurting pony. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I am doing what I should have done years ago and that's to learn how to trim myself. There are several women in my dressage club that trim their own horses. Two have a farrier out every several months just to check that they are on the right path. The other woman said she has been trimming her horses by herself for over a year and they are sound. She trail rides all the time too.

I guess you pay for a name. NB=more money http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You must be that which you wish to become. ~Ghandi~

[slb]

OK....it sounds like maybe he dumped the toes and left them that way? IOW, he just cut a lot of excess dead toe off...vertically....to back them up and then left them without putting a finish edge on them? If he backed them up significantly, then sometimes there is no point to making them look good....it will look better the next time. Although this is not my cup o' tea, I have seen Ovnicek do this at a demo, so I assume other NB farriers practice this also.

Perhaps he didn't do anything wrong by NB standards, it would be difficult to know without seeing pics and even then, it would be questionable. I would maybe give him more time if he is doing some major reshaping of the feet. Once the toe is "dumped" there isn't really much you can do to make it look good. Did you ask him about it, or just figure he didn't do right by you because it didn't look good? If he can logically tell you what he is doing and why, then I would not question for at least 2-3 more trims.

I would suggest that you go to www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) and look at their online tutorial. See if he took the steps that they indicate. If you are planning on trimming yourself, then you really should check it out anyway. One of the major things to look for...did he cut the heels back to the widest part of the frog? If not, then he missed the boat.

I am not defending what this guy did, but generally, if you like the way his work looks on other horses and no one else has a problem, then what he did has a reason. Generally, most farriers don't go around making a mess of one person's horse and not others.

When you do lean to trim, you should also learn the theory behind it, not just the action. If you don't, you will not have a clue how to correctly balance and align the foot. If you are are just keeping a correctly balanced, self-trimming foot in good shape with a rasp, that is one thing, but if you have to work on feet that are deformed, you better get a handle on what you are doing. It isn't as easy as it looks on some horses.

just my POV.....

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[miss moca]

The thread on the mustangs is very interesting. What was not brought up is the fact that they don't live to long. A veterinarian visiting my barn, who was shocked to see how lame the horses are that are being trimmed by their "purist natural horsemanship" owners. She said the average age of mustangs in the wild is four years old. If they go lame, they die.

*The Yang to my Yin*

[pippi]

slb, I'm hoping the pics turn out so I can show you. I did ask him why he lopped off the toe (more on the right which is the lame leg) and also why he didn't rasp. He said he was moving the point of break over and that if the hoof is really uneven he will rasp.

From my eyes the hoof IS very uneven and why trim back so far that the horse goes lame? If the photos are viewable I'd like to get your opinion so that I can have a knowledgeable discussion with him. I am currently reading everything on the hopeforsoundness site.

If I can get a farrier to start the hooves going in the right direction, I'm sure I can trim them myself. But you're right, I've got to get them balanced first. What a catch 22. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

You must be that which you wish to become. ~Ghandi~

[Lookout]

Many mustangs live to quite a good long age, much longer than 4 years old. Herds have been tracked where their ages are known, and carcasses have been found that show much more age than that (skulls).

[Hopeful Hunter]

one interesting thing I noticed when my horse was shod last ...

My farrier, who does a lot of work on TBs, keeps the toes nicely short. He rasps very little, just on the bottom edges and never up into the outer hoof. He does not remove sole from TBs -- MAYBE once in a year, but usually never. He hardly ever removes any of the frog. He keeps heels on the horses, but will trim that area if the foot looks unbalanced to him.

Now, from what I read on some of the sites referenced on this thread, a lot of that is "natural barefoot" type of thinking. However, the horses mostly have shoes. He'll keep them barefoot when he can, but for working show horses and race horses, usually not. Still, it was interesting to see some of the underlying prinicples applies with a regular shoe.

[slb]

Hunter...you make a good point...that the trim is the important thing...shod or not shod. Shoes can't really do much of anything if the underlying trim doesn't balance the foot. The shoe is simply an extention of the foot and the foot must be correct for any properties of the shoe to work. Then, of course, there is the application of the shoe...that also must be correct or there will be a chance of bruising, underrun heels, interfenance, or other problems encounter in misapplicaiton of shoes.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
Now, from what I read on some of the sites referenced on this thread, a lot of that is "natural barefoot" type of thinking. However, the horses mostly have shoes. He'll keep them barefoot when he can, but for working show horses and race horses, usually not. Still, it was interesting to see some of the underlying prinicples applies with a regular shoe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The principle of "natural barefoot" is based on the fact that the foot touches the ground, and that it can wear by contacting it. Once you put a shoe on a foot, there's no connection at all between "natural barefoot" and shoeing in any respect. Balancing a foot is not exclusively a principle of barefoot either.

[hb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
For example, Kigers have had no alterations (except natural selection) in the past 300-400 years and are very distinctive in their "look" from other mustangs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are they distinct because of changes due to natural selection, or because they have been isolated from other genetic strains and simple don't have much variation within their small pool due to inbreeding?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you do not believe that horses can be genetically altered in a matter of a few generations, then you have not been in the world of horses long enough. In 40 years, I have seen Morgans, Percherons, QHs, Apps, Paints and other breeds greatly altered in size and shape. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This cannot be compared to what goes on in Mustang herds, and it is not even slightly related to natural selection. This is selective breeding influenced by humans choosing to breed horses with specific traits.

Natural selection can not cause noticible changes in 3-400 years.

Either the original spanish horses which became the mustangs had much different hoof growth rates than other breeds, or, possibly, running many miles/day stimulates hoof growth in horses.

And do they really all run 20 miles/day? That mustang documentary on PBS a couple of weeks back indicated that when the BLM made the mustangs run 18 miles as part of their round up many of the horses were footsore and lame due to the activity.

But none of that matters to my horse. She doesn't have miles of open range to run over. Just 3 acres of soft (quite muddy this time of year) pasture. So it's a good thing her feet don't grow that fast...

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hb:
Are they distinct because of changes due to natural selection, or because they have been isolated from other genetic strains and simple don't have much variation within their small pool due to inbreeding?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was my point, there are *other* means of "selection". Keigers developed in isolation through natural selection and a small gene pool. While other herds of Mustangs have had domestic horses integrated into them. Those horses bring with them alterations from selective breeding as well as the changes in those herds brought by natual selection and an extended, ever changing gene pool.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This cannot be compared to what goes on in Mustang herds, and it is not even slightly related to natural selection. This is selective breeding influenced by humans choosing to breed horses with specific traits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The original comment that this references was that "it takes more than a few generations of *selective* breeding to alter DNA. I think you have lost the context of the comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Natural selection can not cause noticible changes in 3-400 years.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the current accepted studies of genetics - modern synthesis - there are different modes that are utilized to make "natural changes". These include Darwin's theories of a slow, nautral selection; Simpson's demonstrations that new kinds of organisms arise when their ancestors invade a new niche, and evolve rapidly to best exploit the conditions in the new environment; Stebbins reported diverse adaptive responses to environmental pressures and opportunities; Mendel's Laws of Inheritance, and then there is also the fact of rapid change through mutation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Either the original spanish horses which became the mustangs had much different hoof growth rates than other breeds, or, possibly, running many miles/day stimulates hoof growth in horses.

And do they really all run 20 miles/day? That mustang documentary on PBS a couple of weeks back indicated that when the BLM made the mustangs run 18 miles as part of their round up many of the horses were footsore and lame due to the activity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it has been noted by the farrier and hoof research community that movement increases hoof qualtiy and growth and aids in healing. However, I don't think that rate of growth is as different amoung breeds as is quality of hoof. This might equate to more wear on poor quality horn, but not necessaryly slower growth rates.

Who said the mustangs *run* an average of 20 miles/day? The comments that I have seen is that they move/range up to 20 miles/day. That would most likely be a lot of walking as they graze (since that takes up most of their day) rather than running. This cannot be compared to the "forced" run that the BLM roundup imposses. Since they are "running scared" from the pressures of the roundup team, they are most likely not carefully picking their way through rough terrain like they might if they were just grazing or running of their own accord. They most likely bruised their feet running across stones and other rough terrain. If the ground was hard enough, it even seems likely that they could be suffering slight laminitis as a result of mechanical means (generally refered to as "road founder").

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[jrz]

Question about hoof angles. I understand that wild horse's hoof angles clearly vary with terrain. For example, in sand, the heel sinks down and this creates a steeper functional hoof angle. So these wild horses adapt and are less steep. Horses that live on hard ground have steeper angles - their heels don't sink down and so what you measure on concrete is the same as what they experience as they run around.

Question - why don't I see any discussion of this? I would expect a farrier to ask "where are you going to ride this horse" and if I said in soft sand (rings) or mud, then I would expect him to trim less steeply.

I other words, the angle you measure and the angle the horse experiences on soft footing aren't the same. Is this accounted for?

http://www.tfp.uk.com/natural.htm

[Lookout]

Where do you know of wild horses on sand?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrz:
Question about hoof angles. I understand that wild horse's hoof angles clearly vary with terrain. For example, in sand, the heel sinks down and this creates a steeper functional hoof angle. So these wild horses adapt and are less steep. Horses that live on hard ground have steeper angles - their heels don't sink down and so what you measure on concrete is the same as what they experience as they run around.

Question - why don't I see any discussion of this? I would expect a farrier to ask "where are you going to ride this horse" and if I said in soft sand (rings) or mud, then I would expect him to trim less steeply.

I other words, the angle you measure and the angle the horse experiences on soft footing aren't the same. Is this accounted for?

http://www.tfp.uk.com/natural.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[LMH]

Angles-actually Pete Ramey addresses soft footing in his Hoofcare book. He mentions that horses on soft ground are often more comfy with a weeee bit more heel to allow for that sinking.

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrz:
For example, in sand, the heel sinks down and this creates a steeper functional hoof angle. So these wild horses adapt and are less steep. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that backward? If the heels sink (more than the toe), that would have the effect of breaking the alignment of the phalanges back, producing a more shallow angle with respect to the ground surface, as opposed to forward, which would produce a steeper angle with respect to the ground surface.

Ultimately, I would think the sinking in soft ground would stop at the level of the sole, so a horse on harder ground is supported more on the plane defined by its heel/wall height, whereas a horse on soft ground would be supported more on the plane of the sole (with hoof and wall protrusions sinking in).

[Lookout]

Actually TT you are right about that, but the foot as it moves through its phases contacts the ground heel to toe. So the toe is sinking as much as the heel therefore the original question is sort of moot. Further, horses may work on this surface but are not likely to be living on it all the time (or shouldn't be) which is why it's not a point of discussion in trimming technique, nor are there wild horses on this type of footing.

[LMH]

Lookout-question for you.

I am struggling with the leave frog/trim frog debate....many trimmers are finding a leave the sole/frog better for horses (sort of provides a "sock" of cushioning) BUT I have also heard pokey uppy frogs can cause frog pressure and pain as well.

I am wondering if a flat soled horse needs a more trimmed frog-only from apex through where it runs with the quarters...still leaving it level with the heels at the back. This way the frog won't be primarily weight bearing.

Have you found any correlation to flat feet and flatter frogs and comfort?

[Lookout]

well this is really unrelated to the thread but here goes:
the ones with flat feet/soles have a coffin bone that's suspended lower in the foot (which is the reason it appears "flat") due to weak or stretched out laminae. this makes everything lower including the frog, which makes it look lower, or pokey uppy. I never want the frog lower than the wall or weightbearing below the widest 1/3. that hurts to step on. but since the frog is lower (not actually thicker) one must be careful to trim it instead maybe allowing it to squish down till the WL quality improves. The frog has no shock absorption capability. It does not spread out or dissipate any shock, it just gets compressed.

[jrz]

There are certainly wild and domesticated horses that spend their time on soft ground.

Read
http://www.bhfqh.com/articles/Wild%20horse%20hoof%20pattern.htm

There are domesticated horses that work in sand arenas and live in sand pastures. Many more
that live in stalls and only work in sand.

I suppose if someone thinks they are as much of an expert as Gene Ovnicek, they should post
pointers to their studies.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrz:
There are certainly wild horses that spend their time on soft ground.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where?

[LMH]

What about the ones on the east coast--Cumberland Island? The live all around the beaches and sand-

Also aren't there some in Australia that live on or around beaches?

[jrz]

Ask Gene if you really want to know exactly where the wild horses he studied are from.
He has enough credentials that I'm happy to
believe him when he says some of the wild horses he studied (and found different angles on) lived on soft ground.


http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/gene/gene.html

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
...but the foot as it moves through its phases contacts the ground heel to toe. So the toe is sinking as much as the heel therefore the original question is sort of moot. Further, horses may work on this surface but are not likely to be living on it all the time (or shouldn't be).... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, in a heel-first landing, wouldn't it make sense that there would be more downward pressure to influence "sinking" of the foot in the back portion of the hoof just because of the force of impact (which force has dissipated by the time lift-off occurs and breakover occurs near or at the toe)? And in a "static" stance in soft ground that the foot might sink more in the back? I hate saying "sink" with respect to a hoof, because "sinker" carries bad mojo with it, but you know what I mean?

And gee, mine live in sand pretty well 24/7, and also work in sand. Short of importing enough clay to cover 10 acres or so, what do you recommend? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Lookout]

He described two scenarios that were studied: medium (2) and hard (3). Not soft. The third drawing (soft) had no study associated with it, if you read it carefully.

The "desert" of the West (Nevada, Arizona) is hard ground. So is the desert of Arabia where the Arabian horse evolved.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrz:
Ask Gene if you really want to know exactly where the wild horses he studied are from.
He has enough credentials that I'm happy to
believe him when he says some of the wild horses he studied (and found different angles on) lived on soft ground.


http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/gene/gene.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

Nothing. It's your choice, although it does cause contraction. (BTW, sand in Michigan?)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Further, horses may work on this surface but are not likely to be living on it all the time (or shouldn't be).... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, mine live in sand pretty well 24/7, and also work in sand. Short of importing enough clay to cover 10 acres or so, what do you recommend? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Nothing. It's your choice, although it does cause contraction. (BTW, sand in Michigan?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, in my experience keeping horses here, and the experience of my farrier (who does happen to have clay ground, only 3 miles away...), sand does not cause contraction at all. Rather, the tendency is for the hoof to spread out more and flatten, apparently because there is no firm ground for the edge of the hoof to cut into as it does it's minimal expansion on loading. He assures me that feet of horses kept on sand "pull together" readily when shod, but I haven't gone there.

And yes, there is sand in the land of the piney woods of Northern Michigan. Trust me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[slb]

Geez Lookout...you need to lift your head up above the horses' knees and take a look around! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wild horses that live in sand or sandy soils:
Australia - Brumbies
Chincoteague and other islands on the East Coast
Nevada and other Southwest bands of American Mustangs
Mongolian Desert - Mongolian nomads keep herds of horses that they herd with them with little intervention (generally no food, water, hoof or vet care - only milking the mares and occasionally capture and breaking of a riding horse).
Africa - a band of feral horses that cross the desert annually, spending several months on the sand. Additionally, there are groups that still live in the bush that have horses (my friend did some research on now they break them).
Middle East - least we forget that there are still Bedouins that travel across the desert with their Arabs.

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
He described two scenarios that were studied: medium (2) and hard (3). Not soft. The third drawing (soft) had no study associated with it, if you read it carefully. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you read the fully published study, it says (with my emphasis):
"The feral horses examined were assembled for processing by [the BLM]. ...... A total of 65 horses were examined. Three distinctly different groups of horses were studied. Two groups in 1986 and the other group in 1987. The frist group came from an arid, sandy, desert-type environment and the second group came from a praire sod environment. The horses studied in 1987 originated in a high desert environment with terrain consisting of shale, granite and limestone. For reference purposes we will use the terms soft, medium and hard (respectively) to describe the group's environment..."

Later in the study with regard to hoof angle it states:
"Although the length of the heels varied between entironments, the functional hoof angle was very similar. The functional hoof angle is defined as the angle formed between the dorsal hoof wall and the ground surface during weight-bearing.

"The hoof wall had suprising little contact with the imprint boar. Horses from the softer sand environment had the deepest cup with the most hoof wall contact occuring at the heels and the medial and lateral toe. On the other hand, the horses from the rocky environment had virtually little to no hoof wall contact, however, the frog, bars, and toe callus all bore the imprint marks."

Interesting to also note is that the drawings (which to the best of my knowledge are fairly accurate) imply that there is a greater quarter scoop in the horses on soft terrain and very much diminished on horses from hard terrain...yet, we are often told to create that scoop in all horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Any of you with input on experiences as to why/why not to create that scoop?

[jrz]

Thanks for digging out the exact wording and details.

Lest we lose the point - doesn't it make sense to trim the hoof angle differently if a horse is going to be on hard ground vs. medium or soft ground?

[bthatasitmay]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jrz:
Thanks for digging out the exact wording and details.

Lest we lose the point - doesn't it make sense to trim the hoof angle differently if a horse is going to be on hard ground vs. medium or soft ground? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When riding outside cross country how can you tell when and where the soft, hard or medium ground is to occur? Even in arenas and outside rings the footing can change somewhat from day to day. How much angle changing can the hoof take? The footing where my horses live can go from hard dry clay to soft mud in a matter of hours or even minutes and back to dry the next day. Seasonal changes are significant.

[situpandride]

I'm not a hoof expert but my horses have been barefoot for years, granted one does nothing but stand around and eat. The yellowhorse was barefoot for about 16 years, I rode her sometimes 7 days a week, we jumped, did distance, lots of trail miles and worked in sand arenas. I had an excellent farrier for 12 years, I thought she was sound due to her superior foot health but when I moved and had to find a new farrier and the footing changed, she had hoof problems that took a year and 4 farriers later to correct. My horses don't live in stalls, this horse never went in a stall for more than 15 minutes. The last ct ride I did with her was 30 miles of gravel, she vetted just fine and had no problems with the footing, the vet did not believe she was 28 years old. I know many people think their advanced 3 day, jumpers or dressage horses work very hard and their feet take a beating but 30 miles of gravel is I think a real test. She was the hardest working horse I've known and stayed 50 mile fit for years, the more she worked the better she felt.
anyway, my newest horse was shod all the way around, I pulled her shoes when she got here, it didn't take long for her to adjust however she does not have the advantage my old horse had, we don't get out much and I live in a very sandy area, so I don't know how she'd do on clay or gravel, although I ride her in the road alot. She grows a lot of foot, I either have to work her more or trim her more often, my farrier has been doing her every 4 weeks this summer but I usually have to do a little trim in between, I had to really take off some bar this last time as she was extremely sore and as soon as I trimmed that away she was trotting around and thanked me. She had very bad feet when I first got her, long toes, bad angles and contracted heels, but it didn't take long after the shoes were off.
I can feel the difference riding a barefoot horse and prefer it, there is a softer feel to the riding and it's more of a sliding,sinking feel than a hard feel. I hardly ever ride shod horses anymore but on the occasion when i ride a friends horse it feels different. I am not anitshoe but prefer not to shoe, if I have to alter my riding or management to keep them barefoot I'd rather try that than shoe them.

[situpandride]

I also want to add, the yellowhorse had a long surgical scar on her right hind from the middle of her lower leg, going up well past the hook and that foot turned in a little. I have no idea what happend to her as she came that way, it looked pretty significant. My perfect farrier and I had discussed that leg, the previous farrier had wanted to fix it, but he said to leave it be since she was sound and moving well, he felt trying to trim her to fix the rotation of her foot would make her uncomfortable.