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View Full Version : REQUIRED PHOTOGRAPHS AT ZONE FINALS-Updated with USAE response!!!!



Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 19, 2003, 10:51 AM
Okay, here is the delima. My horse hates flash photography. My sister goes in for her second round and says no photos please and was told by the photographer that they have to take pictures. Of course, the horse spooks everytime the flash goes off and sticks over the jump making a ribbon impossible. We spoke to management and was told that USAEq requires pictures taken of all participants at Zone Finals. I think it's a bunch of bull!!!! How is that fair to the horses that do not like flashes going off as they jump a jump??? All that hard work and money going down the drain all because USAEq wants a picture which isn't going to be any good because the horse is spooking!!!! I'm so fired up, this was my horse's last time jumping 3' and to have her career end on that just plain SUCKS!!!

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

[This message was edited by Ethan's Mom on Oct. 21, 2003 at 08:34 PM.]

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 19, 2003, 10:51 AM
Okay, here is the delima. My horse hates flash photography. My sister goes in for her second round and says no photos please and was told by the photographer that they have to take pictures. Of course, the horse spooks everytime the flash goes off and sticks over the jump making a ribbon impossible. We spoke to management and was told that USAEq requires pictures taken of all participants at Zone Finals. I think it's a bunch of bull!!!! How is that fair to the horses that do not like flashes going off as they jump a jump??? All that hard work and money going down the drain all because USAEq wants a picture which isn't going to be any good because the horse is spooking!!!! I'm so fired up, this was my horse's last time jumping 3' and to have her career end on that just plain SUCKS!!!

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

[This message was edited by Ethan's Mom on Oct. 21, 2003 at 08:34 PM.]

BenRidin
Oct. 19, 2003, 10:56 AM
That's stupid http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif at Maclay regionals people weren't allowed to take pics.. and usually at big grand prixs they tell the audience no pics allowed.. that reallly doesn't make sense. Sorry that it caused your sis to have a bad round http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~BenRidin

Future Breeder
Oct. 19, 2003, 11:02 AM
Best advice - ask for no flash. :\

Fiction
Oct. 19, 2003, 12:09 PM
My friend was forced to circle during a gorgeous trip at Zone 2 Maclay Regionals, because her horse spooked at the flash. At M&S Finals you could tell the photographer as you went in that you didn't want a flash, which I thought was a great idea.

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Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 19, 2003, 01:44 PM
I guess that could have been an option but honestly, we didn't even think of it. We didn't know this was going to happen until she asked them no photos when she walked into the ring for her second trip. I think that the photographer could have at least done that automatically if someone asks for no pics. I think my horse would have spooked anyway. I swear, even with her ears stuffed, she still spooks at the sound of a camera.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

Fiction
Oct. 19, 2003, 02:05 PM
Speaking of Zones, do you have any results?

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Melzy
Oct. 19, 2003, 04:06 PM
I'm sorry that this happened. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I don't believe photographs are required by USAE. Maybe the photographer was told by the show management's contract to take everybody. They certainly should have respected your sister's request, regardless. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Let it go now that you have vented. Life is too short. Best wishes.

C'est La Vie
Oct. 19, 2003, 04:15 PM
The same thing happened to the horse that I was grooming at zone finals. They talked to the photographer and the photographer said that he had to take pictures so that everyone's horse has an equal opportunity to be spooked. He said it was unfair to not take pictures of one horse.

clearound
Oct. 19, 2003, 05:21 PM
Can I ask the name of this photographer. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. What if someone's horse freaked so badly that the rider or horse was injured. Wonder how he would feel about his "equal opportunity" then.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:20 PM
In fact, asking the audience not to take pics usually means there IS a pro taking pics--if the audience can't do it, then there is more hope they will buy from the pro. That is the usual motivation there.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

Fiction
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:24 PM
Last year at Zone Finals, in one of the AA groups, a horse spooked badley at a flash, and I believe the rider also missed a distance, causing a nasty crash, and the rider ended up w/t a bloody nose. I'm not 100% sure on what exactly happened, as it was a year ago, but I know it had something to do w/t the flash

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Molly99
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:36 PM
Actually, it is not uncommon for shows to require the photographer to take pictures of all exhibitors. That is what they are hired to do, afterall.

It is more important at the bigger shows as they use those photographers for promotional purposes and of course you don't know the winner beforehand, so all riders have to be photographed. And that is part of the agreement you sign with the entry blank. For your likeness (picture) to be used in regards to promotion of the show.

PA National was that way, if pictures were taken in a class, ALL riders were treated the same and I would doubt that they would turn off the flash, as indoors, especially in the Farm Show, you would have no picture without the flash. It is simply to dark of an arena to not use the flash, and that does add to the "treating exhibitors to different conditions".

One reason the majority of finals are held indoors is the control factor. All exhibitors are treated to the same conditions.

I can understand having a horse that dislikes the flash, but it is only fair for all to be treated the same.

War Admiral
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:36 PM
I don't think this is a USAE requirement.

I'm sorry it happened, nobody likes to see stuff like that, and I'm sorry you are disappointed.

But I do think the ultimate solution is to TRAIN the horse not to spook at flashes. If the rider and trainer knew that the horse had this issue prior to the show, and failed to do anything about it, then the rider & trainer should bear the responsibility for the loss.

JM2C.

______________
"No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course..."
--Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

TQ
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:37 PM
I don't know who the photographer was but I do know it shouldn't have happened. As a professional photographer it is important to always remember that no photo is more important than the actual event. For several years I was the official photographer at The Garden. There were several very famous horses who did not like the flash. No matter how bad anyone wanted the photo I would not shoot those horses with a flash. Use faster film, use a wide open aperture, use a slower shutter speed, live with a grainey photo if you have to but NEVER flash at a horse that has requested no photo or no flash.
At FEI approved indoor events no flash is allowed. Any professional photographer who used a flash during the competition would lose their credentials immediatly.
There are even a few photographers who spook horses just by where they position themselves in relation to the jumps. It is never acceptable.
I hope it never happens to you again. You should certainly report it to management and ask them to make it clear to the photographers that they are not to interfere with any performance. Good, experience photographers know that.

Molly99
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clearound:
Can I ask the name of this photographer. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. What if someone's horse freaked so badly that the rider or horse was injured. Wonder how he would feel about his "equal opportunity" then.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the photographers fault, if he is following the instructions of management or the judge to take pictures of all the riders. I doubt that any photographer wants to take pictures if they know it will cause problems, but taking pictures for management is what the photographer is paid to do.

clearound
Oct. 19, 2003, 06:48 PM
Sorry, but the "only following orders" excuse doesn't work for me. Especially if it could have resulted in an injury to horse or rider. Photographer could have informed management that he would not take pic of anyone who requested otherwise. I know of other photographers who have done the same thing.

I also doubt highly that the judge instructed the photographer to take the pics.

No Chrome
Oct. 19, 2003, 07:08 PM
A friend of mine had a fabulous first trip today and a really great ribbon, but her horse spooked at the photographer in the second, and of course, no ribbon. It was a let down, but she wasn't going to let it ruin her day completely. It would be nice if we were able to ask for no pictures, but fair is fair. Everyone has to deal with it. Some of these horses are at shows all year long with photographers, and the rider/trainer learns whether or not the horse will be bothered by it. But some of these horses go to smaller shows and never see a photographer, so how would anyone know if the flash will bother him? I think this is probably how this rule came about. Or maybe there have been complaints in the past that a rider didn't know she could request no pictures, and her horse spooked, while someone with more experience with these types of things asked for no pictures and won the class.

As far as injuries go, these are animals. Photographer or not, you are likely to get hurt someday, and being in a place like Harrisburg makes those chances greater. If this rule doesn't change, and you know your horse won't deal with a camera, it looks like you might end up scratching rather than risking an injury.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if the rules weren't the same for everyone it just wouldn't be a fair competition. The hunter ring is a tough enough place to be as it is. I am very sorry to hear that having a photographer in the ring cost your horse a ribbon, especially because this was her last shot at it. I'm sure if it were my own horse I'd be pretty upset, too!

Darden
Oct. 20, 2003, 04:54 AM
I think this is absolutely ridiculous to subject every horse to flash because some other rider wants a photograph of his or her horse.

First- Molly99- why in the world would a judge tell a photographer to take photos of the horses? Why would the judge have anything to do with a photographer unless the photographer got in the way and the judge wanted to throw him or her out of the ring?

Second- I would love to know of a show manager who would tell you that you MUST be photographed with a flash. What if you or your horse were hurt AFTER you told management that you didnt want to be photographed? Think they want that liability?

Third- show me the USAE rule that states that every rider must be photographed. A USAE steward told you that? Seriously, I am curious where in the rule book that it states this- have I missed it? Anytime that "show management" tells you that there is a rule that you've never heard of, ask them to show it to you in the rule book.

Photographers take photos to sell to riders and owners and maybe trainers. They make their money from the people who buy photos- not management.

As long as there is no USAE rule--If you don't want your horse photographed you should tell the photographer that you will not buy photos so do not take any pictures. And if the photographer takes your photo anyway, tell them after you are done riding that not only will you not buy that photo, they will not have you as a customer after that. And that you will write a quick note to management stating that you asked for no flash and were ignored.

Let us know who the photographer is who ignored your request and who spooked your horse. We'll know to request "no flash" with this "professional" in the future.

Darden
Oct. 20, 2003, 04:57 AM
Curious- was this in Zone 2?

buryinghill1
Oct. 20, 2003, 06:42 AM
READ the paragraph on every USAE entry blank.

You agreed to be photographed. You agree the show may use those photographs. It is very clear.

Period.

If you don't like it, propose a rule change. Get a better attorney than USAE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ExtremeChaos
Oct. 20, 2003, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:
Okay, here is the delima. My horse hates flash photography. My sister goes in for her second round and says no photos please and was told by the photographer that they have to take pictures. Of course, the horse spooks everytime the flash goes off and sticks over the jump making a ribbon impossible. We spoke to management and was told that USAEq requires pictures taken of all participants at Zone Finals. I think it's a bunch of bull!!!! How is that fair to the horses that do not like flashes going off as they jump a jump??? All that hard work and money going down the drain all because USAEq wants a picture which isn't going to be any good because the horse is spooking!!!! I'm so fired up, this was my horse's last time jumping 3' and to have her career end on that just plain SUCKS!!!


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Same thing happened to me, I asked not to have pics taken and they said "they had to"!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif
Last year there was a photographer kneeling down by a jump, neither my horse or I saw him until we took off an *poof* the flash went off.
At least this year they were visible and I could make my adjustments! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 20, 2003, 07:00 AM
I understand what the entry blank says, but does it say the same thing for the entries at PA National Horse Show? They respect the wishes of those riders that walk in and ask that no pictures be taken.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

ExtremeChaos
Oct. 20, 2003, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C'est La Vie:
The same thing happened to the horse that I was grooming at zone finals. They talked to the photographer and the photographer said that he had to take pictures so that everyone's horse has an equal opportunity to be spooked. He said it was unfair to not take pictures of one horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's insane, there's an order form to fill out if you want pics taken.
I feel you should be able to "just say no" to pictures......... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

wadino
Oct. 20, 2003, 08:15 AM
For those who asked, the photographer was James Leslie Parker. I felt bad for the girl who works for him because she was right by the ingate and everyone asked her not to take them, and she had to tell them that she had to.

Charis
Oct. 20, 2003, 08:28 AM
This is NOT a "fair is fair" issue!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This is a brain dead situation.
Granted I haven't attended indoors for several years...but there is NO way either on the entry blanks or by USAeq rules they can "require" flash photos.
If someone were hurt as a result of flash...the liability exposure is HUGE! Forget the horse...what if the rider were temporarily blinded? I work on the claims side of the Nations largest insurer...and I can assure you that if the show's liability carrier knew ....the practice would halt IMMEDIATELY due to a small fact known as RISK MANAGEMENT

2003...the year to bloom!!

buryinghill1
Oct. 20, 2003, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charis: ...the liability exposure is HUGE! !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You signed off that protection too, as you walk into the ring. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you plan to sue USAE, remember you have to do so in the State of New York. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I suggest you wait for the new regime to kick in, though.

As for the show's liability carrier... many get coverage from [USAE sponsor] http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif A few flashbulbs are the least of their worries.

Merry
Oct. 20, 2003, 08:55 AM
Lord knows I've been tons of major events right alongside some of the best pro photographers... TQ included. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The USAEq statement about allowing yourself to be photographed is PRIMARILY to let everyone who participates be aware that there are photographers on site working both as official show photographers and for various publications and therefore your photo just might end up being used editorially. For example, the local newspaper wants to promote the big horse show. The paper happens to run a photo of you, probably anonymously, jumping a fence. Or you and your horse end up in a magazine as an example of a well-turned out English pair. It's a public event. You may be photographed.


Theoretically, USAEq may have stated they wanted a photo of every Zone finalist. That way they were certain to have a photo of the eventual winner. Therefore, if I knew I had a horse that spooked at flashes, I'd contact management ahead of an indoor show, confirm the rule, and then desensitize my horse. It can be done. For several years I rode my sister's medal horse that was blind in one eye. At our Zone Finals the flash went off in his good eye!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My state's governor can beat up your state's governor.

nelson
Oct. 20, 2003, 10:07 AM
I don't understand the "fairness" argument. Everyone has a chance to ask that no photos be taken, so why can't this request be honored for those that make it??

Incidentally, I have another comment about the photography at Zone 2's finals. I haven't shown there since 1999. But, I do remember that the last time I did show there, the photographer was charging $50.00 just to send you your proofs. I found this to be completely outrageous, so I said no thanks to proofs. But, I know a lot of other people who really wanted pictures, so they ponied up the $50.00 even though they felt like they were being ripped off. Does the photographer still do this at Zone 2 Finals? If so, did you guys who were there pay the fee?

Saddith
Oct. 20, 2003, 10:22 AM
As a photographer myself, I always do as requested by the rider - if that means leaving the ring during your round, or not being near the rail then that is what happens. I do not want to be the cause of any spook related incident. I do not take pictures with a flash anyway - unless it is a win photo. But, we do want pictures for the magazine, so it is a delicate balance!

I do however stand in the same exact place for every horse, because I don't feel it is fair to be near the ring for one horse, and not the next. So if for some reason I am not taking pics of a particular rider, I still stand in that location. In my head it seems like that keeps the playing field fair. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would say work on desentizing your horse is in order. I have suggestions on how to do that if you are near the Los Angeles area, just PT me.

wadino
Oct. 20, 2003, 10:40 AM
nelson-They sent out a form to everyone with your aceeptance letter saying that you can pay 100 dollars and you are guaranteed atleast 3 pictures that are not proofs, but can be ordered bigger for more money. They did the same for the Medal Finals and NAL Finals.

tyedyecommando
Oct. 20, 2003, 11:01 AM
He had to take pictures of everyone to make it "fair"? Give me a break. It would be "fair" if the photographer stood in the exact same position during the entire class. Otherwise he is shooting from different places with his flash going off at different angles. He also must take every picture at the EXACT same time, which would be nearly impossible even for the best photographers. To me it seems VERY rude of the photographer to say this or stupid of the management to allow this to happen. I don't think people who didn't want to to take their picture in the first place would be excited to buy a picture from you EVER again after your flash spooked their horse. I thought that would be common sense.

Merry, I thought the same thing reading the photo bit on the release.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Cause I'm hella cool, that's why."
- Eric Cartman

horsephoto
Oct. 20, 2003, 11:26 AM
That sounds very odd. I HATE taking photos indoors so I don't do it. I would complain to the show management and the photographer.
Onawa

Darden
Oct. 20, 2003, 11:28 AM
Buryinghill1-thanks for the clarification.

You sign a release saying that they May take your picture so that you can't object to finding your mug on the sports page of the local paper. How do we get from there to a manager saying the USAE requires all riders to be photographed?

I really like that photographer's work. He does a fantastic job. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[This message was edited by Darden on Oct. 20, 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

No Chrome
Oct. 20, 2003, 05:58 PM
buryinghill has it right. Read your entry blanks. Read your release forms. As far as risk management, if you are getting as far as zone finals, the management knows the horses and riders are seasoned competitors. They should know to be prepared for anything. Be informed, then work on your horse. I really don't think it would fly if you said, my horse doesn't like the pumpkins in the corner, so I request that they be removed before I enter the ring! Ride your horse, train your horse. That is what this is all about isn't it? I've seen worse things happen. How about a dog that ran into the jumper ring at a show a few years ago. The horse jumped out of the ring!!! Sorry, Charlie. Better learn to control your mount...

If it is a huge issue, write to management. Find out exactly where it says that a photograph will be taken of every horse. If it doesn't specifically say that, you can sue management for not properly informing the photographer (who by the way, is innocent here, he's just doing the job he was hired for). But, good luck proving that your horse would have been in the ribbons...this is, after all, not a cut and dry sport. What you could do is petition this rule. Have a voice. If they get enough complaints, maybe this won't be an issue in the future.

As far as Pa National rules, it is a different show, different management, different rules. Don't get them confused because they are held at the same grounds in the same few days.

Again, I do sympathize. It is an awful feeling to know you spent all that time and money to get there, and it was ruined by a flash bulb.

BumbleBee
Oct. 20, 2003, 06:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
I don't think this is a USAE requirement.

I'm sorry it happened, nobody likes to see stuff like that, and I'm sorry you are disappointed.

But I do think the ultimate solution is to TRAIN the horse not to spook at flashes. If the rider and trainer knew that the horse had this issue prior to the show, and failed to do anything about it, then the rider & trainer should bear the responsibility for the loss.

JM2C.

______________
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly all it would take is a few rolls of film over the off season to cure the horse of this habit. Better yet buy a $10 dollar strobe light (you can set them to a very slow rate) and ride with it plugged in.

The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order.
-- Brian Pickrell

tyedyecommando
Oct. 20, 2003, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it is a huge issue, write to management. Find out exactly where it says that a photograph will be taken of every horse. If it doesn't specifically say that, you can sue management for not properly informing the photographer (who by the way, is innocent here, he's just doing the job he was hired for). But, good luck proving that your horse would have been in the ribbons...this is, after all, not a cut and dry sport. What you could do is petition this rule. Have a voice. If they get enough complaints, maybe this won't be an issue in the future. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know of VERY few shows that the photograper is "hired" (as in paid) by the management to take pictures. They usually call and ask for the PRIVELEDGE to take a picture. I am sure they have an arrangement for the larger shows but most shows do not hire photograpers.

As far as conditioning your horse to a flash, there is a difference between spooking at the flash and being blinded by a flash. Think of yourself having a picture taken. Some of them hurt after they go off. If as many horses were spooking as it sounded like, the photographer might should have looked at where he was and if it might be him that was causing a problem or if the horses were just spooking.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Cause I'm hella cool, that's why."
- Eric Cartman

Snowbird
Oct. 20, 2003, 07:29 PM
The waiver of the USAE simply says that it is a release to use pictures that may be taken, it does not make taking the pictures mandatory. That's so if the show gets pictures they can use them or the USAE may use then in some magazine or newspaper stories and not get sued because the exhibitor had not signed a release. It is not a demand that you must be photographed during your trip.

Second: The Zones run their own horse show finals and it's not the USAE that runs the show. So, it is up to the Zone not the USAE to say whether a photographer is mandated to get a picture of every trip.

There is no rule that says everyone must be willing to be photographed in order to make the class fair, that is absolute nonsense.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 21, 2003, 05:27 AM
This is not a training issue here. But, we tried everything to get the horse used to having her pictures taken and nothing worked. Of course we would love to have pictures of her jumping at indoors, but if it's going to cause a problem then forget it. Horses go to Harrisburg and WAshington that are more seasoned competitors then my horse ever will be and they don't have their pictures taken because they know it will distract the horse from having a nice round. While a photographer has become standard at shows, it's not part of a hunt course.

My whole point of this post is maybe it's time for things at Zone Finals to change. I understand it's an entirely different horse show then Harrisburg, but, I wanted to know if the entry blanks said the same thing regarding photos. We walked into the ring at NAL and no photos were taken. I don't care if they take a picture of us coming into the ring, leaving the ring, standing around or what but not as she is going over a jump. I can't prove that the horse would have pinned had pictures not been taken. But, can you imagine, walking in the ring and the nerves are already there, then you ask the photographer please not pictures and they say, sorry, we have to. I'm sure that didn't help my sister's nerves knowing the horse was going to stick and jump bad 3 times and there was nothing she could do but ride through it and hope for the best. This is something normally respected at any other show, so why can't Zones be the same?

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

KMZ
Oct. 21, 2003, 07:19 AM
hmmm, if the horse stuck off the ground, that was not the photographers fault, it was most likely due to a faulty distance, not slamming your sister or your horse, I didn't see the round. Also during the middle section, the photographer didn't shoot pictures until the second round, so the horse's were already around the ring once, or at least I didn't notice a photographer in the first round.

nelson
Oct. 21, 2003, 07:54 AM
RzB - thanks for the update about the charge for photos. So, now it's $100.00?? Yikes. The problem I have with that is this: the 3 pictures that you are guaranteed to get could all be terrible!!! You have to pay a large sum for pictures you may not even want once you get them. I'd be curious to know how many people just said no to this??

buryinghill1
Oct. 21, 2003, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom: I wanted to know if the entry blanks said the same thing regarding photos.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All USAE entry blanks and prize lists are supposed to contain the same liability and release statements. When you enter (or your trainer - as your "agent" - enters for you) you agree that the show may use photographs of you. BlahBlah... Nowhere does it allow us to refuse to be photographed.
"Required" photos sound like a bunch o' crap to me. Videos in the jumpers are definitely appreciated by the judges in that arena http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but there ain't no hunter judges (or management) "requiring" photos (to the best of my knowledge). And what the hell good is a photo to a hunter judge - long after the class is pinned? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Unless of course, the judge wants to buy the critter for a customer. Now THAT makes sense.
What I DO know - that management often tells their "official" photographer to ignore the no-photos requests. So you see trainers stuff a few bucks in the photographers pocket ("hey when my horse goes in for the first years, please don't shoot her..."). That works - so long as the photographer knows you (and the horse).

Now, be aware hunter folks.. that some judges in your ring REALLY don't like hearing "no photos please" when a horse comes in the ring. I can't speak for all judges, but the subject has come up over dinner many times. No photos. What's next.. no videos? The video camera turning always spooks my horse? Please ask the jump crew guys not to move? Please ask the judges not to chatter as my horse goes by? Ask them not to move their clipboards? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"Why can't zones be the same?" Ethan's Mom... if every time we went in the ring it was "the same" don't ya think that would get old? Sometimes you gotta come around the corner with a little more spur http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I agree a photographer shouldn't be part of the "test." But I (meaning me) wouldn't accept a spook from a horse. I would go jump in every indoor ring in the county, have folks walk around the jumps, and shake cameras at me. I'd send the critter off to John Lyons for a little roping and riding - and then off to Buck Brannaman for some flag waving. (just kidding)
No flash bulb is gonna stop me.

On a related topic: You're gonna die when you see the next "suspended" list http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif No wonder none of THOSE horses spook! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The COTH boards are gonna LIGHT UP! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

KMZ
Oct. 21, 2003, 08:03 AM
Oh Yeah, I've heard about the fund raising campaign going on it was the talk of the town last weekend...The shame of it is, that some who are repeat offenders just get to do it again after a year or so. But at least this time, they are getting more than slaps on the wrists.

Ash
Oct. 21, 2003, 08:27 AM
They talking about suspensions as long as a year! You guys are right…this is going to be so good!

This topic brings up a new question. If a trainer is suspended for forbidden substances in their horses can they judge?

************************************************** **********
"I'm not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
-- Hilary Clinton

buryinghill1
Oct. 21, 2003, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash: If a trainer is suspended for forbidden substances in their horses can they judge? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> no. A suspended person can't show his/her face on the grounds of a USAE show (during competition hours). Unless you're Barney and wear dresses.
He/she could go to unrecognized shows (but some local groups won't allow suspended folks to show either).

(sorry to get your thread so off topic, Ethans Mom!!)

Snowbird
Oct. 21, 2003, 08:43 AM
A blatant rule of law is that if the law doesn't say you can't then you can. The waiver does not say that you cannot refuse to have photos taken there can be many reasons not to want to be photographed and identified.

Especially in this sport who knows how many are the people on the America's most Wanted List?
No one can force you to have a picture but if you happened to be included in the background or sidelines of a photo the release allows them to use the picture without you suing anyone.

I think it is a very rude suggestion when you don't know how well some one does or doesn't ride to conclude that it was not the faults of a flash bulb going off in a horse's eye that caused a distraction.

This will be a minor discussion until someone whose horse is light sensitive crashes a fence and the rider or the horse is killed.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 21, 2003, 09:36 AM
Thanks Snowbird. The distance was there and she rode the line very well, the horse jumped to the right (the photographer was standing to the left) and the horse got very stiff and jumped it flat. The horse's entire attitude changed. She normally goes around with a nice pace and you could see in her face she was now nervous (and she was fine in the first round).

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

RAM
Oct. 21, 2003, 09:55 AM
It's very difficult to read threads when you or a family member is the topic of discussion. In many of the replies we were supported in our request and I try to ignore others.

I was the one who approached the steward and the show manager to get an answer. I never said that she would have won the class or even pinned if the flash hadn't gone off. I made it clear to both of them that we just wanted a good showing in the finals.

We had never made a request for no photos in the past and had a photographer tell us they were required. I still feel that I raised a legitimate question and am waiting for a response from the USAE.

Rent-A-Mom for those without HSM's. Real mom of "Ethan's Mom", "Hope" and "Huntersrule"

Snowbird
Oct. 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
If it ever happens again Ram just tell the photographer he can take the picture but he'd better be willing to be sued if there is any flaw in your course for any and all damages resulting in the reduced value of your horse and interference on course.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 21, 2003, 11:21 AM
If judges don't like to hear "no photos please", that's fine, they choose not to pin me because of that, fine. It's their opinion, that is what we are paying for right?

My whole point is, when we approached the steward and management we were told that USA Eq "requires" all participants to be photographed. I want to see the rule that states this. Zone Finals is a USA Eq sanctioned show and I know they are entitled to add rules/specifications other then USA Eq rules/specifications. I want to see where/what it says.

I didn't ask to be flamed with my comments when I started this thread. I take the flames personally and I'm glad that my sister is out of town and hasn't been able to read this.

This has nothing to do with jump decorations, my sister's riding or training with the horse. Asking for no photos does not fall in the same area as please take away the brush from that jump or the flowers from that jump. I'm not walking into a Grand Prix class and asking that they remove the liverpool, or the Medal Finals and asking if I can be excused from jumping the skinny gate. I'm not crying boo-hoo I didn't get a ribbon and the fact that my picture was tkane is the reason why. Of course I'm upset that my horse's last trip at the 3' was not what I would have liked, but, I will repeat, I want to know if this is a "rule" or a tradition. Is there something that we as exhibitors can do to change this if it is a rule.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

[This message was edited by Ethan's Mom on Oct. 21, 2003 at 02:56 PM.]

tuffenuff
Oct. 21, 2003, 12:29 PM
I was sitting very close to the out of the two stride and watched and heard two or three riders ask the photographer not to take pics.I also heard her say she HAd to!I find this all very interesting in the past I have seen the photgrapher just not take pics if asked not to.But I did find it oddd that after sveeral riders asked the photographer to stop it seemd like the photographer vanished but maybe I am wrong??
Oh I have heard a lot about a huge suspension list whats that about?

HSM
Oct. 21, 2003, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tuffenuff:
.But I did find it oddd that after sveeral riders asked the photographer to stop it seemd like the photographer vanished but maybe I am wrong??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not watch all day, but when I did watch in the afternoon, they were only taking photos of round 2 for each division. Maybe the "vanishing" you saw was for round 1?

From this same show last year, we have one shot of my daughter looking directly at the camera with a "huh?" look on her face, because the photographer seemed to appear out of nowhere as she and her horse came over the jump. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Her horse was startled too. It did seem to me this year that they were trying to "set up" the shot far enough ahead so this wouldn't happen.

But it is still hard if your horse has not been to a lot of indoor shows with a photographer before.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

[This message was edited by HSM on Oct. 21, 2003 at 09:43 PM.]

Saddith
Oct. 21, 2003, 03:36 PM
I find this a very interesting read - and am happy to see extremes from oneside to the other! Some people think that your horse should be reasonably seasoned to most anything if you have made it to this level. Others think you should sue if your horse glances at the photographer... I like these types of discussions! Very healthy!

And it is a legitimate question that Ethan's Mom has brought up - is this written somewhere in the USAE rule book? Or the management rule book? I would like to hear the response you get Ethan's mom from the USAE on this particular subject.

And, don't take any of this personally Ethan's mom - although it is hard not to. I think most people are talking about horses in general...not just or specifically yours. I am thinking that what they mean is if you are at that level of competition, then your horse *should* be as seasoned as you and not have outside influences affect it overly much.

Again being a photographer I can understand the need for flash in the indoor. I shot the world cup and even though that seemed fairly bright to our eyes in that arena, through the camera lense it was AWFUL. It was so dark, that I had to use really awful quality film just to get pictures, and they didn't come out all that well. And shooting for a magazine, I can understand the want for a photo of the winner, especially a jumping one.

That being said, I am a rider too, and I can understand why I wouldn't want a flash going off in your face. So I understand your dilema from a different standpoint. I can see both sides and it is not a easy outcome either way.

sbp
Oct. 21, 2003, 03:57 PM
I think Ethan's Mom brings up VERY valid points in her last post...she certainly is not whining, just asking where the rule is stated.
It seems to me that this is a safety issue, and you would think that the request would have been granted on that reason alone.
Training issue--I doubt it seriously in this case--- I think this is a case of a rider knowing her horse and trying to keep it a safe round for her mount and herself.

Adonai Equestrian Services, LLC
www.adonaiequestrian.com (http://www.adonaiequestrian.com)

RAM
Oct. 21, 2003, 05:23 PM
Here is my e-mail to the USAE (names removed) along with their response.

"Hi Susan. I had e-mailed xxxxxxxx with this
question and she suggested I contact you to start with and if you weren't the right person there, you would steer me in the right direction.

We were at zone finals yesterday. My daughter's horse does not like flash or photographers. xxxxx xxxxxx and his asst were in the ring during the 2nd round. She spoke to the starter and requested no photos and was told to ride up to the photographer and
tell them. She went to the asst and requested no
photos and was told that they are required to take them. The horse reacted as we expected - spooky and ran.

After the class I went to the steward and asked her about it. She said she had never heard that they were required and said we need to talk
to the show manager –XXX XXXXX. I went over the
situation with him and he said that the USAE
"requires" them to take photos of everyone that enters the ring at finals. I said that doesn't make sense, what if my daughter had fallen off and gotten hurt, that opens you up to a law suit. I then said I guess I should talk to the USAE about this and XXX replied that all they would tell me is that if we didn't like
having pictures taken in the ring then we just
shouldn't show.

I'm rather irritated about this. It's not that she would have won the class if the horse hadn't spooked, I just wanted her to have a better experience than she had. This is the only time that we have ever requested no photos and our request was not honored.

If this is in fact a "requirement" of the USAE, then I feel it should be changed and would appreciate any suggestions as to how this can be done. Not all horses accept the flash and I feel the safety of all riders should be more important than having a picture.

If this is not a requirement, how do we get the zone committee to honor our requests.

Thanks"

Reply:

"Hi XXXXX,
Thank you for your email. I am very sorry your daughter's experience was not as good as it could have been. I know she worked very hard and much time and money was put into her getting to the Zone finals.

USA Equestrian does not require that pictures be taken of horses.

I have copied Lori Nelson a member of our Rules Compliance department so that she can explain your options at this point.

Again sorry for the bad experience and let me know if you have other questions.
Sincerely,


Susan Simcoe Dotson
Director of Hunter/Jumper Activities
USA Equestrian
sdotson@equestrian.org
859-225-6942"

I certainly appreciate the quick response and understanding expressed by the USAE.

Rent-A-Mom for those without HSM's. Real mom of "Ethan's Mom", "Hope" and "Huntersrule"

HSM
Oct. 21, 2003, 06:25 PM
RAM, I agree it was a thoughtful and quick response - good so far, hope it continues.

For those who have commented that the horses "at this level" should be "seasoned" and accustomed to distractions like photographers and flash, a reminder: this was Zone finals. Not a national finals. With the exception of A/O and Jr. Hunter, all the other divisions are C-rated divisions. It is entirely possible (in fact likely) that the competitors could have qualified without ever having been to an indoor venue of any type before. I mean, Zone Finals is THE only "indoors" for these divisions, for the most part. Hence, their horse would never have any reason to be exposed to a flash photographer before. All the more reason that if someone says "No photos please", it should be honored. JMHO. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

No Chrome
Oct. 21, 2003, 07:28 PM
Saddith-good point. Extremes from both sides do make for a good debate. No hard feelings should come out of it. As a matter of fact, it is a good way to build a defense if Ethansmom or someone else should decide to pursue this with USAE. One must have an idea of the oppositions intentions in order to come out on top. Preparation is the key.

Kudos to RAM for getting to the bottom of the original question. I am a guilty party in the debate topic. I can't help myself. My best grades in college came out of argument and debate classes...

Ethansmom-I don't think you are whiny or otherwise for starting this thread. I do sympathize with you. It was a disappointing experience.

HSM-I agree with you. As I stated earlier, some of these people don't know if their horses would spook at a flash. They could show for three beautiful summer months and qualify for zones, never having set foot in an indoor.

Good luck to those of you who pursue this!

Snowbird
Oct. 21, 2003, 07:39 PM
I have just gone through the Rules and the only reference to photos having to do with the exhibitor is this: "I agree to waive the right to the use of my photos at the competition..."

This says to the USE of the photos. The Zone Finals had no right to force you to have pictures taken while you were on course. It is definitely not a USAE Rule but an improper use by the Zone Committee.

Personally I think it was an interference while you were on course equal to or greater than if a member of jump crew jumped out and spooked your horse.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Soul Kitchen
Oct. 22, 2003, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:
the horse got very stiff and jumped it flat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with KMZ on this one, I don't think the photographer caused this. I have seen this horse go and she always jumps like this.

Ragdoll
Oct. 22, 2003, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soul Kitchen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:
the horse got very stiff and jumped it flat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with KMZ on this one, I don't think the photographer caused this. I have seen this horse go and she always jumps like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Soul Kitchen, what an incredibly vindictive thing to say.

Ethan's Mom's issue is not with how the horse jumped the jump, from what I read it could have jumped it backwards for all she cares. Her ISSUE is with the fact that they requested that photographs NOT be taken and they were told by the photographers assistant that photographs are REQUIRED by the USAE. According the response they received from USAE, the USAE does NOT require that photographs be taken. So, the photographer and show manager, whether intentionally or not, lied to them. This is the issue.

RAM
Oct. 22, 2003, 06:20 AM
Soul Kitchen - you are correct, the photographer did not cause the horse to jump flat. She is not the best jumper but does go around and gets the job done.

Point being raised is telling us that this is required by USAE.

Rent-A-Mom for those without HSM's. Real mom of "Ethan's Mom", "Hope" and "Huntersrule"

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 22, 2003, 06:30 AM
Soul Kitchen-There is no need to critize my horse's jumping ability in this thread and I would appreciate it if you would delete your message as this is not the issue here. I know she is not the most athletic jumper, but, her other jumps were fine where there were no pictures being taken. Our trainer even made the comment about how she jumped the oxer coming out of the line and she too felt it was a result of the photographer and I believe she knows what she is talking about. Again, the horse is not the issue here so please do not critize my horse.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

FairWeather
Oct. 22, 2003, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soul Kitchen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:
the horse got very stiff and jumped it flat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with KMZ on this one, I don't think the photographer caused this. I have seen this horse go and she always jumps like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if that was true, does it matter? It should be someones right to say "no photo's please!"

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 22, 2003, 06:57 AM
Thank you FairWeather. My horse is not the issue here and the more I think about it the more upset I get. Holly was a $3500 rescue horse who has given us her all for the last 4 years. I know she is not the most competitive horse in the A/A's and she is probably the least athletic jumper in our barn. But, my sister works her butt off and that horse has come a long way during the 2 years that she has competed on her. I am this close to locking this thread as I have asked not to be flamed or attacked and that was a direct personal attack on my beloved horse who is not the issue here. That is just down right rude and I would like to know who you are Soul Kitchen since you so obivously know who we are.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

frisbee32
Oct. 22, 2003, 07:20 AM
People should be praising this horse and rider for her accomplishments and not attacking her jumping style. Holly did qualify didn't she??? That was a lot of horse shows and judges liking the way she goes. Kudos to both horse and rider! It is just a shame that the photographer could not respect someones wishes.

Everybody, leave the horse out of this!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

KMZ
Oct. 22, 2003, 07:53 AM
UGH, I did not and repeat SLAM the horse or rider, I mearly responded to Ethansmom's comment on the horse sticking off the ground...HOWEVER had I been able to read her reply a further down the page, I would have NEVER commented on the jump, because she defined why/how the horse jumped directly related to the photographer.

Ethansmom, and RAM sorry if my comments started a critism of your mare, that was not my intent.

When reading and trying to comment on a public BB you are going to get all kinds of responses, when you put your sister and your horse out there you are going to get commented on whether you want it that way or not, you have the right to get upset BUT if you didn't want to get a comment on them, you never should have listed them in your post. You very easily could have started this thread without bringing in the personal realationship IF people figured it out FINE, but by offering it, your going to get comments on it, sorry but that just seems to be the way this board flows...

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 22, 2003, 08:08 AM
KMZ-Thank you for your post. We know you did not intend to slam my horse or my sister. Your reply was valid in response to what I had originally said. I clarified my post to explain what did happen stating that I did not use the correct terms. I did not state who I was in my post or my horse's name. Obviously people know who I am. My problem is that I specifically asked to not be attacked personally, that it was not an issue of how the horse is trained, the way she "normally" goes or that I felt she would have pinned if this did not happen. I stated I was upset by the what we were told, I questioned the "rule" and I wanted any clarification that could be provided. Your are correct in your observation as to the things people say on the boards and yes I guess I did open myself up. Sometimes it gets pretty nasty here and I don't like that. I have never gone after anyone, or publically posted negative comments about any person or any horse and I guess I feel I'm due the same respect. Wishful thinking I suppose.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

Snowbird
Oct. 22, 2003, 09:31 AM
There are negatives as well as postives in everything and the Internet is no exception.

A lot of people scan the mesages and just pick up on minor points. I think you should file an Official Protest about the photographer because it is not fair to exhibitors who have worked all year to get to the Finals and then not be permitted to put down the best trip they can. The photographer was an interference on the course aaand the show should be penalized for not being honest with you.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Lord Helpus
Oct. 22, 2003, 10:16 AM
Ethan's Mom (and others to whom this has happened):

When your first post is misleading or poorly worded and gives people the wrong impression, thereby leaving open the possiblity that readers will get the wrong impression, posting a revision or clarification of your intended message on P.3 is not (as you are finding out) the way to correct the problem. Editing the original post IS the way to clarify misunderstandings.

I have seen this happen on a number of threads --- a maligned poster comes back with a "that's not what I meant" post on P 3 or P 5 or where ever.

The problem is, many BB'ers will read P.1, to understand the topic, and then skip to the last page to see what the tenor of the discussion is before adding their own thoughts. So clarifying your original post and asking that you not be attacked on P3 of a 5 - 6 page thread does no good. People are not choosing to misunderstand you or say things in direct contrast to your intended meaning because THEY NEVER READ THE POST ON PAGE 3.

I, also, immediately thought that a horse does not spook at a jump due to a flash, because he is already in the air when a flash goes off. It was not something I felt the need to share, but it was a reasonable interpretation of your post. And you are the one who chooses the words.

So, please do not berate posters who are only responding to your chosen words. Instead, go back and edit the post so that your true intention comes across more clearly.

*** This post is not intended as a criticism, but as a constructive suggestion, to avoid further misunderstanding.***

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 22, 2003, 10:26 AM
Lord Helpus
You are right with what you had to say about my original post. However, it was done out of pure emotion. I'm not going to change it though. I have clarified myself in other posts and if people choose not to read them that's fine. But, this person obviously read the other posts when they responded negatively regarding my horse's jumping ability even after I asked to be attacked personally, that it was not the original point of the thread.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

nelson
Oct. 22, 2003, 11:32 AM
Wow, Soul Kitchen! Are you having a bad day? Or are you just nasty all the time?

Ethan's Mom - I have seen your horse at several shows (including at Zones), and I think she's very cute! Try not to take the negative comments of a nasty poster to heart . . . .

Ridin' Fool
Oct. 22, 2003, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think you should file an Official Protest about the photographer because it is not fair to exhibitors who have worked all year to get to the Finals and then not be permitted to put down the best trip they can.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we should be able to protest on HOW MUCH the required photographs cost!! Yes, it was $100 for "at least 3" photos - none of your choosing either. I chose NOT to buy any photos, instead bought my round on DVD, which is very cool and much cheaper! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

huntersrule
Oct. 23, 2003, 04:55 AM
Come on now......something happens and we dont think its fair and we bring it up to see others opinions and guess what???? People start bashing.....I agree that the photographers should out of COMMON Courtesey respect the riders request. Just as any other request made in the appropriate manner be respected. We knew before hand the horse didnt like the flash. I know my sister asked politely and was responded with a "we have too." Sorry to get worked up but they dont "Have to" do anything! Whats going to happen huh? Had I been my sister and on that horse, I would have charged both photographers. Seeing as once the first flash went off, she knew her chances were changing. Instead she took the upper hand and rode as well as I have ever seen her ride! I apologize now but I am worked up....I do see red easily and knowing how hard my sister works to get where she is I am more than willing to step up to plate and get defensive. I do agree that bashing the horse as Soul Kitchen has done was absolutely downright rude and uncalled for. She wants to take it up with me privately then thats on her but to bash a horse like that is mean. Holly jumps her heart out. My sister works her tail off and the bottom line is that there is nothing we can do now but perhaps prevent someone else from going through the same situation. Before we got this horse I didnt even KNOW we could ask them not to take the pictures! I guess it will take a pretty big accident (and I am sure there have already been a few) before everyone will agree on this matter.

"I am not deaf! I'm ignoring you!"
"God took a hand of southerly wind, blew his breath upon it and created the horse"

mymutombo
Oct. 23, 2003, 10:05 AM
We competed at Zones last year and many people asked for "no photos". The photographer[same as this year] seamed ticked, but did listen. We had photos taken because we wanted one from "Zones". Our pony did spook slighly[still was second ...who knows what could have been]. Wish any of my students could AFFORD a seasoned competetor who would't spook! But... even the seasoned ones can spook at anything on any given day. I can't imagine he was required to photo everyone.

Jumphigh83
Oct. 23, 2003, 10:19 AM
I dont care if the horse jumped like apiece of sh*t or not..she asked for NO PHOTOS and that's what should have happened..NO PHOTOS..it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know you can't "train" inate behavior out of animals (the spook) just ask Sigfried and Roy...The horse show was WRONG and I hope you get your entrys back with damages..I cant stand it when the managment lies to cover their own rumps..USAE "requires" pictures ..OH PULEEEZZEE! Come up with something better than that!

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com (http://www.threewindsfarmny.com)

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

KJoy
Oct. 23, 2003, 10:47 AM
This thread has gotten so contentious. EthansMom, I do hope that you can completely ignore the insensitive, rude posters whose opinions mean nothing. In any case, I completely agree that the photographer HAS to respect the wishes of the rider - after all, the rider is the one who keeps the photographer in business by buying pictures!

Second, it is not always possible to train a particular fear out of a horse. They are not robots after all, they are horses! Try as we might, they won't ever become automatons.

To those posters who feel the need to say rude, hurtful things: Just imagine how you would feel if YOUR horse was criticized and bashed on a public forum. There is no need to be mean and hurtful - play nice, or go away - those kind of posts (and their posters) won't be missed.

Snowbird
Oct. 23, 2003, 11:26 AM
Let's not kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

The issue is photos aand whether a flash bulb in the face can spook a horse. There was nothing I read suggested the horse was perfection as a competitor and the rider an expert. Zones Finals are for those who are not expert and on their way up the ladder there are plenty of AA Shows for all the hot shots on made old competitors and broke to death.

The point was they were told that the photo was mandatory and it shouldn't be. Whatever the result if told NO! the photographer interfered on the course. The show was not intended to separate horses who didn't care if a flash went off in their face from those who did. It was a performance class. Obstacles which represent those found in a hunting field.

I don't think there are many photgraphers hiding in the bushes on the hunt field.

Battle Scarred Veteran

nelson
Oct. 23, 2003, 12:55 PM
Good point Snowbird! I didn't even think of it that way, but it is totally true. There are also no "indoor" hunt fields, are there? Hmmmmmmmm?????

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 23, 2003, 01:56 PM
Snowbird-you were able to put one of my arguments into better words then I could. I tried but it never came out right.

Anyways, we heard back again from USAE last night (our original message was passed on to another department). We were pretty much told to file a compliant. That is not what we wanted to do and we have no intention of doing so. We want to know that this will not happen again next year to anyone else. I will continue to update as this is hopefully resolved.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

wadino
Oct. 23, 2003, 03:30 PM
Does anyone know if you will still receieve proofs if you didn't fill out the form? It didn't say either way on the paper, but if they take pictures of everyone, then why not?

HSM
Oct. 23, 2003, 03:51 PM
I don't think you get anything automatically unless you filled out the form, but I could be wrong.

I suppose you could call the phtographer's office to double-check.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Snowbird
Oct. 23, 2003, 05:24 PM
Frequently the photographer gets the list of exhibitors with the numbers and mailing address from management.

I disagree with you Ethan's Mom, to make sure that it doesn't happen the only way is to file a complaint against the show so they are put on notice. The fact is that it is unlikely that the management of the Zone Horse Show has participated in this dialog.

One show manager gets the call and they will all know they just can't do that.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Portia
Oct. 24, 2003, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Snowbird:
I disagree with you Ethan's Mom, to make sure that it doesn't happen the only way is to file a complaint against the show so they are put on notice. The fact is that it is unlikely that the management of the Zone Horse Show has participated in this dialog.

One show manager gets the call and they will all know they just can't do that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that's advice coming from a show manager. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We've sold your children to pay for the new furniture. I think you'll find it's a better investment in the long run." Carson Kressley, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Lucille
Oct. 24, 2003, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KMZ:
hmmm, if the horse stuck off the ground, that was not the photographers fault, it was most likely due to a faulty distance, not slamming your sister or your horse, I didn't see the round. Also during the middle section, the photographer didn't shoot pictures until the second round, so the horse's were already around the ring once, or at least I didn't notice a photographer in the first round.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you didn't see the round how can you comment on it.......... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Lucille
Oct. 24, 2003, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soul Kitchen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:
the horse got very stiff and jumped it flat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with KMZ on this one, I don't think the photographer caused this. I have seen this horse go and she always jumps like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Well I guess the horse couldn't jump that poorly, it did qualify for the Zones.
BTW, were you riding in the zones, or just a spectator??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

JumpinRealHigh
Oct. 24, 2003, 03:24 PM
Does it REALLY matter whether or not the photographer caused the horse to spook??

What matters here is the photographer was asked not to take pictures and the request was not honored.

Horses don't need reasons to spook. God only knows what they see sometimes.

The issue is "NO PHOTO"S means just that. FILE A GREIVANCE so in the future this won't/should not happen again.

Jumpers Rule!!!

tyedyecommando
Oct. 24, 2003, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JumpinRealHigh:
Does it _REALLY_ matter whether or not the photographer caused the horse to spook??

What matters here is the photographer was asked not to take pictures and the request was not honored.

Horses don't need reasons to spook. God only knows what they see sometimes.

The issue is _"NO PHOTO"S _ means just that. FILE A GREIVANCE so in the future this won't/should not happen again.

Jumpers Rule!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Cause I'm hella cool, that's why."
- Eric Cartman

Snowbird
Oct. 24, 2003, 07:37 PM
Well good! You young'uns are catching on. If you don't stand up for your own rights why should anyone respect you enough to give you a gift?

That's the way the system works. You have to be willing to put up or shut up.

I'm getting weary and hoping that you will all stand up for yourselves. NO ONE but No ONE is going to protect your rights but you.

Battle Scarred Veteran

RAM
Oct. 25, 2003, 03:07 PM
This has certainly been an "interesting" and controversal topic. I have been out of town and just read the last few days of comments. I have also had several people PT me with other comments and suggestions.
Show managers have told me that if they want photos and we say no, they will not allow us to show!! Other managers have said it doesn't bother them and if they need an action photo, they'd ask us to submit one.
I have heard from trainers (big and small) who says they always request no photos, especially for amateurs.
Other exhibitors have warned me to not protest because judges will remember and not pin our horses.
I have sent another message to USAE asking if a show manager has the right to require pictures and refuse our entry if we don't want them. I will update when I get that answer.

Thank you to everyone who has supported our concern and made us feel better when some comments and posters have gotten us down.

Rent-A-Mom for those without HSM's. Real mom of "Ethan's Mom", "Hope" and "Huntersrule"

findeight
Oct. 25, 2003, 06:21 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ethan's Mom:


Anyways, we heard back again from USAE last night (our original message was passed on to another department). We were pretty much told to file a compliant. That is not what we wanted to do and we have no intention of doing so. We want to know that this will not happen again next year to anyone else. /QUOTE]

But if you don't file the complaint, nothing will happen and it may well occur again next year.

There may well be a waiver allowing USAEQ to use your pic but there is NOTHING that says you cannot decline a flash during your round. I have seen numerous riders request no flash in several disciplines at numerous major AHSA/USAEQ shows over the years and I, at least, am comfortable there is no requirement to shoot a flash photo of every competitor.

But unless you are willing to persue the matter with proper authorities all this angst on the BB will do no good to prevent the same thing from happening.

PLEASE file the complaint or you are part of the problem and not a solution.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Snowbird
Oct. 26, 2003, 05:29 AM
Ram that means they don't have the right! And they certainly don't have the right to refuse your entries and jeopardize a whole year of competition because they want a picture of you over your fences.

I do not believe that a judge would take it out on you if you refuse but they certainly would if you horse misbehaves over a fence because the photographer popped out with a flash bulb in it's eyes. If they want a picture they can stage it in the schooling area when you are paying the price.

YES! you have to file a complaint because if you don't it will happen next year. Most likely the problem is the show has a contract and the photographer wants the most number of people to send proofs to get orders.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Soul Kitchen
Oct. 26, 2003, 06:14 AM
Wow! This whole thread is just... I don't even know?? At what point do you just accept it for what it is, part of the game? I have owned many nice hunters (some of which went on to be AHSA HOTY). I have had many trips spoiled by horses spooking at photographers. In fact I had a nice working horse that stood up on its hind legs and would not go near the jump where the photographer was standing (at the Garden none the less!) I had a second year horse spook, scoot and drop a rail at Devon shying away from the photographer. You know what I did? SUCKED IT UP! I figured, they better get used to it at some point as it is ALL PART OF THE GAME!

The reason I pointed out the way this particular horse jumped is because I was there that day (Zone finals) and didn't see that horse spook at the photographer (yes I watched both her rounds). Maybe if you own her and know her like the back of your hand you would notice her getting tense etc. But it was in NO WAY noticeable to me. I have seen this horse go before and I wanted to point out that to casual observer it didn't really look all that different.

Oh and Snowbird, what part of the hunters today has ANYTHING to do with the hunt field? Riding in a ring? Strided lines? Jumps with flower boxes?I am sorry but your point is NOT a valid point at all!

This whole thread just stinks of SOUR GRAPES and gives hunter people a bad name. No wonder the eventing people come over here and bash us as a bunch of cry baby princesses!

MdLib
Oct. 26, 2003, 06:58 AM
Barney Ward in drag? When, where, and is there a photograph?

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 26, 2003, 09:34 AM
Soul Kitchen-

If you were at Zones and know horses the way you make it sound like you do then you would notice a huge difference in the way the horse went between both rounds. Her first trip was actually pretty decent except for being a little swiggly to the first jump. She had an even pace and the jumps were there. Everything about that horse changed the minute they took the picture over that oxer. She sucked back to the brush jump at the very next line (which she didn't even bat an eye at before). My sister had her heels into her that entire line because the horse saw the other photographer at the end of the line. Believe me, that horse is one that normally does not need much of a leg. She never relaxed or got a steady comfortable pace the remainder of the course. I'm sorry she is not of the caliber of some of the horses you state you have owned in the past but she is competitive enough to make it to Zones and we are very proud to own her. We do not have the kind of money that is spent on some of those horses at Finals. We have always dealt with what was handed to us and done the best we can with it. I take offense when anyone says anything negative about my horse when they don't know what we have gone through to get her to the point where she is now.

How is this about being a bunch of Sour Grapes? I am in no way saying that my horse did not win because her picture was taken. I'm saying that there is NO WHERE in print that states they have a right to TAKE my picture when I ask them not to. I understand it says they may USE my picture. I also don't appreciate being told that if I don't like it, don't show. What gives management the right to say that to me?

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

Snowbird
Oct. 26, 2003, 02:20 PM
Well Soul Kitchen maybe from your lofty location in the world compared to the rest of us peons your opinion seems logical. But, that was the most patronizing and insulting post I've read in a long time. Where do I get my definition from? Read the rules and in every Prize List "obstacles which are likely to be found in a hunter field". You may choose to redefine the division if you wish but until the rules are changed I stand by the definition as published.

As far as sucking it up goes there is no reason to suck it up if there is interference on a course. If the jump crew happened to show up behind a fence and scared your horse and it cost you a good ribbon with lots of points I don't think you'd suck it up.

There is no reason to evaluate anybody's horse, trip, sister or anything else because we're not talking a beauty contest. And since you weren't the judge, your op1nion is worth what you got paid for the job "nothing".

Battle Scarred Veteran

stopher
Oct. 26, 2003, 02:44 PM
At a show this past week in Calgary (at Spruce Meadows) the photographer was not at all like the one at the show you attended.

In the first class on the first day, 4 or 5 people fell off after the last jump due to their horses spooking at the flash over the jump and doing weird stuff on the landing. Our smart photographer figured out his mistake, found better places to take pictures, and didn't take pictures when people asked him not to.

I think that respecting the requests for no pictures is a common courtesy and that your photographer should have.

Stopher

JumpinRealHigh
Oct. 26, 2003, 03:43 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
Snowbird, HATS OFF TO YOU. I COULDN'T OF SAID IT BETTER...... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Jumpers Rule!!!

huntersrule
Oct. 27, 2003, 04:51 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yeah Snowbird!!!!! Very well said...... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I am not deaf! I'm ignoring you!"
"God took a hand of southerly wind, blew his breath upon it and created the horse"

Lucille
Oct. 27, 2003, 05:24 AM
TOUCHE Snowbird................ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

spina
Oct. 27, 2003, 05:27 AM
Well said, Snowbird.
Ethan's Mom, please, don't feel the need to defend yourself. You asked a legitimate question, got a lot of people thinking about something that affects most of us, and sparked a great debate, as witnessed by five pages of discussion. If an occasional post gets pissy or self righteous, it's THEIR insecutity.

Ethan & Ella's Mom
Oct. 27, 2003, 05:52 AM
I want to lock this thread but I don't know how. If someone (a moderator) could do it for me or someone tell me how to do I would appreciate it.

"We all take different paths in life, but no matter where we go, we take a little of each other everywhere."
- Tim McGraw

http://home.mindspring.com/~bcstill/

BAB
Oct. 27, 2003, 06:03 AM
Just in case the moderators don't check this thread often, click on their names at the top of the Hunter Jumper page. Their profiles should come up and there should be an email address for them. Send them a private email and it will be taken care of. I did that some months ago with a post that got very personal - emailed a moderator and it did get locked. Good luck.

Bev

Erin
Oct. 27, 2003, 07:00 AM
Locked at the request of the original poster...