Disappointment @ inspection ISR/OLD.... MUST READ [Archive]

GW Ranch

Sep. 27, 2003, 09:29 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

That is it.. I have had it..... Although I have time after time educated my breeders about the different registries but this is the FINAL straw. This is why I have filed a complaint with the government about the ISR/OLD misleading the public..... It is not Cheryl's fault.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This is the email I just got
"My name is Cheryl Stokes. I bred my Le Champion mare to your late Budweiser Stallion. At the inspection at Riverland Fames in Livermore Sept. 21st, I was denied grading and branding of my beautiful filly I named Bionic, because of a problem (the judge told me) with your stallion Budweiser.
How can everyone else seemingly, get inspected and branded - but not me? I argued with the judge - but he would not budge! He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S.
My mare however, got Premium Mare with 106 points! But my baby got NOTHING! The audience sure thought she was special.
Have you had this problem with other mare owners? I noticed on the web sites that Budweiser has an extensive number of first premium babies on the ground...then comes Bionic and they won't even grade her!
Please, please email me with a solution to this problem (if you can) I am very disappointed and frustrated with this problem. I tryed to breed a top quality animal and have a big ZERO!
Thank-you for you time, Cheryl Stokes " pcstokes@microz.net

Hmmmmm>>>>>> Now that I have PROVE that the is misleading the public, I will go to the next step. Would love to hear your thoughts...

Heike

Sincerely
Heike Albert
http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch

GW Ranch

Sep. 27, 2003, 09:29 AM

elizabeth Callahan

Sep. 27, 2003, 09:42 AM

Heike,
From what I understand, ISR will not approve a foal if the sire is not presented to them to them. IF you want to beed a mare to a stallion that is not currently approved, tyou must submit an application as well as a additional fee to get a single permit to breed to that stallion. This must be done in the year of breeding (ie, BEFORE breeding) , not aat the time the foal is presented. If the breeding director does not approve that stallion, your permit will be denied, and the foal will not be approved. It is spelled out in the rules and regulations of the organization and I have bred several mares to permit stallions by submitting an application ahead of time. I think the owner should have had a clearer understanding of the rules before she presented or should have picked a different organization where her foal was eligible for registration
Another case of the breeder not clearly understanding the regulations

Tiki

Sep. 27, 2003, 10:08 AM

Heike, I also thought that you made it ABUNDANTLY clear that you WILL NOT allow any of the foals by your stallions to be presented to the ISR/OLNA, so why are you whining that the owner presented the horse to the 'wrong' registry????? You are SO anti ISR that I can't believe that YOU didn't educate your client. Why is this the ISR's fault???

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

aurum

Sep. 27, 2003, 10:19 AM

Heike, you know that I support GOV, but here I have to take side of the ISR/Old NA. It is not their fault if one of your clients takes the foal to the ISR/Old NA for presentation. It is rather the fault of correct education. I thought you are making it all clear to your clients that your stallions are not approved with ISR/Old NA and that the foals must therefore be presented to GOV. Budweiser is not approved for ISR/Old NA so how is that their fault if they do not brand his foals? I thought your breeding contract states that the foals cannot be presented to ISR/Old NA, so why did that client do so? Honestly I think it is HER fault if you have educated her upfront!

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Sep. 27, 2003, 11:58 AM

Heike,

You know we love you to pieces but the terms of your contract are well known and they clearly prohibit taking a foal from one of your stallions to the International Sporthorse Registry or the Oldenburg Registry North America (a.k.a. ISR / Old NA) In fact, that well known clause is the reason we will not do business with you... for example, we purchased Lord Sinclair’s semen from another vendor rather than accept the terms of your contract (or be forced to violate said terms).

Now it appears one of your clients didn’t bother to read the terms of your contract very carefully.

IF by "filing a complaint" you mean to imply that you're filing suit... well, we live in a country where anyone who pays a filing fee can file a lawsuit… but I really don’t see where you have a legal cause of action against Oldenburg North America based upon the facts you’ve set forth in your post above, and I would be curious to know what other government agency you could have reported the ISR/Old NA to. That all sounds just plain silly!

You seem to be implying that your above scenario constitutes proof that the ISR/Old NA is misleading the public. Sorry, but I don’t see it. And if you read the court’s July of 200O Final Order in you know that our courts have already determined that the GOV has mislead American breeders… not the ISR/Old NA.

Btw, ISR/Oldenburg NA was not a party to your contract with Ms Stokes and they are not bound by its terms. However, if the Oldenburg Registry North America had gone ahead and accepted your foal, you might have had a cause of action against Ms. Stokes for her breach of contract.

This year we presented a Feinbrand filly to ISR/Old NA. Before doing so we took the time to read the rules… we paid the extra fee, our filly was inspected and throughout the process we were treated with the utmost courtesy and respect by the Inspectors for Oldenburg Registry North American.

You’re a lovely woman Heike with a lot of integrity… I think you owe ISR /Old NA an apology here.

Elaine

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 27, 2003 at 04:34 PM.]

carosello

Sep. 27, 2003, 12:24 PM

Well Im glad to hear that the ISR held up their part of the bargain and did not accept a non-ISR approved stallion. Cudos to them because I know this has not always been the case.

Unfortunately there is no way you can dummy down a contract enough to make sure everyone gets it. Heike-your beef is with the mare owner who cant figure it out. Although, I would double check with her again on if the ISR told her "He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S. " IF the ISR used that language then shame on them that is misleading. But there are two sides to every story and Im sure you will get this all ironed out.

STF

Sep. 27, 2003, 12:26 PM

My thoughts are the same too Heike....I thought your contract forbid anyone to present their foals to the ISR/OLD if they were bred to your stallions??! Im confused? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

As everyone knows I am a GOV supporter and it is well known that the GOV and ISR do not see themself as a combined group. So being different breeding/registry groups all together. So if the ISR is a seperate organization all together and Bud was not presented for Stallion approval, then it was not even an option for the foal to get rated?! We all know that to prsent a foal to a registry that the stallion has to be approved by THAT registry?!?

Im sorry, I am just really confused with the whole deal and the breeders motives?!?! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"So many people believe that they can teach themselves and educate their horses without having to pay for compentent tuition, especially those who mostly need it"......Alfred Knopfhart

Dressagedirttaster
www.spindletopfarms.com (http://www.spindletopfarms.com)
Swedish Warmblood Breeding

Sonesta

Sep. 27, 2003, 12:30 PM

Heike, you know I like you a lot, too. I have used and will continue to use your fine stallions. But you are off base here. This was NOT the ISR's fault. They well know that you will not allow any foal by one of your stallions to be registered with them and Bud is not approved by them for that reason. They did the right thing by turning down the foal.

It seems to me that you are mad that the client thought the ISR/ONA was the same as the GOV. And I know you are mad that ISR even uses the name "Oldenburg". We all know there is a lot of confusion with this, but I think you need to be more mad at yourself for not making sure this mare owner understood what she was supposed to do.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

Nikki^

Sep. 27, 2003, 02:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:
I tryed to breed a top quality animal and have a big ZERO!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is SO rude! I'll take that filly off her hands if she thinks she has a zero. Some people....

http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
Look up your TB's bloodlines

Oakleigh

Sep. 27, 2003, 04:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

It is not Cheryl's fault.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heike, you know I respect you and your stallions. But, in fact, this IS Cheryl's fault. Your contract is perfectly clear. We can't continue to excuse people's gross errors because of their claim of ignorance. SHE has to be accountable for HER mistake. She didn't read the contract, obviously.

I would think you should be happy that the ISR/ONA would not register this foal because that would have been against your wishes. I think the ISR/ONA did everything right here.

I don't think you have anything to complain about, except frustrations with breeders who don't read or listen.

The breeder's comment about her foal being a zero seems very loutish to me. I'm quite certain that this foal, being by Budweiser, is VERY nice. She lost a year, but can get the foal inspected with the appropriate registry next year.

My sympathies are extended to you for having to work with some breeders who can't/won't read and try to put the responsibility back on you.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

HFSH

Sep. 27, 2003, 05:00 PM

I don't think it's the ISR's fault. It's the mare owner's responsibility to access what registries the stallion they breed to is approved for.

It's your client's fault for not doing her homework. If she READ your contract, she would have known the stallion was not approved ISR. Obviously she didn't read her contract. She also never bothered to check the stallion's approval with the ISR.

The ISR did not mislead her. They told her that your stallion was not approved with them, therefore the foal wasn't eligible for their Oldenburg papers. I'm sure they could have issued her a Certificate of Pedigree - but then your contract states you will sue the mare owner, so in all appearances, in fact, the ISR did your client a favor (she won't get sued by you).

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

Firefly

Sep. 27, 2003, 05:11 PM

Heike, with all due respect, I seem to remember that you wanted to sue ISR a few years ago because they were issuing registration papers to Feiner Stern foals against your wishes. Now you are upset because they won't issue registration papers to a Budweiser foal. Your contract is clear that you do not want foals sired by your stallions registered with ISR. ISR's rules are clear also - they will not issue registration papers to foals of stallions that have not been presented to them, unless the stallion has an "international" show record and reputation (which Budweiser does not). ISR stood by its own rules, but your mare owner did not abide by your contract. Your beef should be with the mare owner, not with ISR. You and she have two choices - you can sue the mare owner for breach of your breeding contract, or you and she can settle this amicably between the two of you and she can present the mare and foal next year to GOV. I'm sure GOV will inspect this foal as a yearling given the unfortunate set of circumstances. I do agree though that it is terribly confusing to novice breeders to have two separate organizations operating in the U.S. that use the Oldenburg name - it would be so much simpler if ISR would just stick to the ISR name for its horses.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 27, 2003, 05:37 PM

Why doesn't the owner just present the baby to AWR or AWS? I mean...so what if ISR or whoever doesn't want her because the sire is unapproved? You can't ride the papers! All these registries are unbelievably confusing to the uninitiated folks and new breeders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Why can't we all just support American WB registries and keep it simple?

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

pintofoal

Sep. 27, 2003, 06:00 PM

Heike, this has happened to us a lest once or twice a year with our stallion Spectrum. The mare owners assume since he is registered ISR/OLD NA that he is approved with them--HE IS NOT also since most of our other stallions are approved by both mare owners often assume, we try to make it very clear in our information that Spectrum is approved by Oldenburg Verband only not ISR/OLD NA and that he is also approved RPSI and AWS The few times the owners have taken the foals to the ISR/OLD NA inspections the inspectors have said the stallion IS NOT APPROVED by them, which is correct he is NOT, but the mare owners always get upset (classic example you gave of the reaction of mare owner). It is NOT the job of ISR/OLD NA to say where he is approved or that he is approved by Old Verband/Oldenburg Breeders Society, though that would make it easier on me/you and lessen the anger of the mare owner until I have a chance to explain it to them again. As I said IT IS NOT their job to tell the mare owner who your stallion is or isn't approved with, only that he is NOT with them so ISR/OLD NA is 100% correct in how they dealt with your confused client. You make it so abundantly clear that you do not deal with ISR/OLD NA in your contract that I agree with everyone else here this is your clients fault and ISR/OLD NA handled it with complete professionalism and are not at fault. Sorry it is never fun to deal with an angry/confused client, but really they have nothing to be angry about, you are clear in your contract.

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Dune

Sep. 27, 2003, 11:05 PM

"Late Budweiser stallion"??? Did something happen to him?...or was this just a typo? (holding breath) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Cartier

Sep. 28, 2003, 12:45 AM

Budweiser is now in Germany, being ridden by Gilbert Boeckmann. According to Heike’s website he did very well at his first jumping competition in Germany.

dray

Sep. 28, 2003, 05:17 AM

A perspective:
I am just presenting a prespective from other European Verbands. Several Verbands have a caveat in their regulations stating that is a stallion has been approved and rated in a certain percentage, etc., or achieved certian performance goals/requirements, they will accept foals from that stallion without the stallion being a "card-carryng meber" of their organzation, particularly with very nice foals.

For example, I had presented my Latvian mare to the Westfalen in 2001 after doing a embryo transfer to Freestyle. After that time, I imported several Danish horses and had the team of four Danish inspectors here to brand the Danish filly. They had seen the mare and the colt and requested that they see the pedigree of hte mare and breeding certificate of hte colt. The mare was graded Elite in Latvia, by the Westfalen. They graded the colt a 9 overall, said that he was a stallion candidate, etc. The DV had worked very hard to get Freestyle to Denmark, but he ended up at Nijoff instead. They wanted the Florestan and Poloma mare blood brought into their program. No the donw-side is that to date, the DV has no provision for licensing a stallion in hte USA. It has to go to Denmark for testing, etc.

Another example of a caveat being exercised occurred this year when the RPSI came to Texas. I had the DNA for my Cabalito filly out of an A-line mare. The mare was presented for inspection by my friend, who owns here. They inspected and branded the filly. Her grand-dam had not been presented to the AHS, so she could not get branded with them, even though her dam had been inspected. GEEZ.

As such, because we are in America and spread to the four winds, we can't drive around a short distance for an inspection. In terms of breeding Warmbloods, our country is still young, relatively speaking. It makes sense to work with the verbands that will work best with what you have.

My one experience with the ISR was when I attended the 2002 approvals at Star Gate in 2002. I asked about registering my three DIamond foals, due in 2003. He has a trackable production record with excellent interior and exterior scores. The inspector told me that they did not approve Diamond. Well, that told me something about that group, so I knew that in the future, I wouldn't have anything of interest to them.

So Cheryl, I recommend that you present your foal as a yearling to another verband. Do your home work in the interim. Feel free to contact me.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.sportequine.com (http://www.sportequine.com) for the Daily Journal

Sorry this happened.

ise@ssl

Sep. 28, 2003, 07:53 AM

The rules/regulations for the ISR/OLDNA are published and I'm not sure how anyone can make the statement the breeder was mislead in anyway. The list of APPROVED stallions is published on the website and in the breeders guide. The foal with the mare was eligible for a Certificat of Pedigree but it would appear the mare owner didn't want that option.

Using frozen semen of stallions NOT approved in the US is considered on a case by case basis and is to be done PRIOR to breeding. The stallion in question was in the US and never presented for approval. So consequently foals by him even out of approved mares - are NOT eligible for papers/branding by either the ISR or the OLDNA.

Tiki

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:06 AM

The issue of a stallion being approved by one registry and not approved by another usually does not have much of anything to do with the quality of the stallion, but rather the goals of the particular registry. I think it is in very poor taste to publicly trash a registry that turned down a stallion with a wonderful record when the reason may have been that he didn't meet the TYPE they were looking for. If all stallions (and mares) were of the same type we would only need one registry. All the European registries were originally regional, and they were all looking for good sport horses, but they all had different types in mind that they were looking for. Many of them now accept other registries stallions and mares, but I don't know of ANY that automatically accept all other registries' animals. In fact, maybe Gwen or Alexandra can chip in here, but now that they have new regulations in Europe and have to take other registries' stallion's offspring if they are out of their mares, I think there are some hard feelings there if the stallions are not 'their type'.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

grayfox

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:27 AM

Please forgive my ignorance if I am totally offbase. But don't you have to send money and an application to go to an approval(I've only been to one). Why didn't ISR call or write her to say that they would be happy to inspect the mare but the babies father is not approved through ISR. They don't have to tell her where to approve her baby just that they can't. I'm confused as to why she wasn't informed until the day of the inspection. Obviously the owner made a mistake but it is confusing when you are first learning. I think in this one instance that someone dropped the ball at the ISR when they accepted money for a inspection that they had no intention of doing. I am assuming that is was an unfortunate slipup on their part.

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:32 AM

Grayfox- you do not prepay for an inspection. Although I will say at our inspection we asked for sire information and told the owner of an ISR approved sire that he was turned down by GOV and hence could not get full papers.

there are maybe parts to this we dont know..there are two sides to every story.

Although I see it is unfortunate that they did go ahead and inspect the mare..for now she has to do that again next year with another group to get the foal registered.

Layne Farm

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:42 AM

Well here is my 2 centshttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Since I have a feinbrand Filly and like Elaine I will pay the Extra $300.00 for my filly to get approved with the Isr/oldna. Since this stallion is not on there list. I did how ever call the isr who was so nice and explained everything to me. I dont know why this woman did not pay the extra money for the stallion who is not on there list or maybe beacuse the stallion owner has made it very clear that you can not take her stallion babies to there inspection.

Can you pay the extra 300.00 for any stallion that is not on there list?

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

talloaks

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:42 AM

grayfox

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I think in this one instance that someone dropped the ball at the ISR when they accepted money for a inspection that they had no intention of doing. I am assuming that is was an unfortunate slipup on their part. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am about to host my sixth inspection for the ISR/OLDNA and money is not accepted with any mail in registrations. Money is not paid until the inspector looks at the paperwork and it is filled out just prior to starting the inspection for the day. It would not be up to me, the host, who receives the paperwork to determine who should come to the inspection and who should go somewhere else.

Obviously if the foal was not registered no monies were taken for her (think it was a filly?)

The ISR/OLDNA didn't do anything wrong. I believe that Heike is the only stallion owner who has the clause in her contract about not permitting any offspring of her stallions to be registered with the ISR/OLDNA. That is Heike's own personal preference and it is really up to HER to make sure that the breeders understand what she means, and particularily if they are first time breeders they may need additional explanations and clarifications.

Shame on you Heike!!! Go look in the mirror!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

grayfox

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:48 AM

Oh, that makes more sense then. Thanks)

graystonefarm

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:57 AM

I feel it is the responsibility of the hosts to double check to make sure that the foal and mare are eligible for acceptance or registration with that particular registry. That is one of the reasons that why we require all of the paperwork prior to the inspection. Sounds like someone at the inspection site did not do their job.

Some people are one-time breeders with the intention of keeping the foal as a future riding partner and are not educated about the various warmblood registries. They have a mare that they love and find the "perfect" stallion to breed their mare to, to produce their future "dream horse."

I think the point Heike was trying to make is that having 2 Oldenburgs here in the USA is still confusing for many people, especially when the ISR refuses to make any effort to let people know that they are in no way affiliated with the Oldenburg registry in Germany. What's even more interesting is that some people choose to support the "American" Oldenburg when in fact their "American" Oldenburg registry is run by German businessmen who chose not to follow the rules and regulations of the German Oldenburg Verband. [flame suit on!]

The owner of the foal should have read Heike's contract. Heike has WAY too many customers breeding to her stallions for her to make sure that they are educated about Oldenburgs and that they the ISR is not affiliated with the German registry.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

elizabeth Callahan

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:06 AM

Sherry,
As a mare owner and breeder , I would hope that a stallion owner would never be too busy to explain my registration options. I might be one of many customers, but if a stallion owner does not have the time to explain things, they are way too busy for my taste. Not saying that happened here, this mare owner is responsible for asking, but if it is important to the mare owner, the stallion owner should have time to explain all the options.- Myybe a little flyer or addendum that says, that foals are eligible for the following registries

talloaks

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:14 AM

graystonefarm said

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I feel it is the responsibility of the hosts to double check to make sure that the foal and mare are eligible for acceptance or registration with that particular registry. That is one of the reasons that why we require all of the paperwork prior to the inspection. Sounds like someone at the inspection site did not do their job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now how many hosts are familiar with each stallion owners contracts?? I have heard of Heike's contract forbidding the registration of foals by her stallion when a personal friend of mine was trying to breed her mare (it didn't work out--no foal but won't go into deals of why) and the fact that she would be sued by Heike if she registered the foal with the ISR/OLDNA. I have no idea if other stallion owners have such language in their stallion service contracts.

So it isn't up to the ISR/OLDNA inspection host to determine which registrants should come and which shouldn't, just like they wouldn't have any idea whether a person was a current member and had paid their membership dues for the current year. The inspector has all of that information in his books when he first sits down at the registration desk, the mornign of the inspection day, to take the paperwork and receive payment. The last year or two we started taking the payments at the time of registration, on inspection day, so people wouldn't have to line up again before branding---hoping to save time since our inspections have been very large, well for us between 40 and 50 horses.

I still believe, deeply, that if a stallion owner has a particular "thing in her contract about not registering her stallions offspring with the ISR/OLDNA" it is up to her to make sure HER CLIENTS know what it means BEFORE signing the stallion service contract.

It is HEIKI'S BUSINESS, HEIKI'S THREAT, not anyone else's and therefore the ISR/OLDNA was ABSOLUTELY correct in disallowing registration of her stallion's foal.

I do feel very sorry for the poor person who has the foal and really didn't have all the correct information due her.

Consider it a lesson learned. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

graystonefarm

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:19 AM

Elizebeth, I agree with you 100%. You must not have ever seen Heike's breeding contract or bred a mare to any of Heike's stallions because her contract is very clear and it also requires that the mare owner indicate which registry she/he will be registering the foal with. Heike then forwards the appropriate foal certicate to the mare owner. I am assuming that this particular mare owner chose the Oldenburg Verband since there is no choice for ISR on her form. I am also assuming that Heike sent her German Oldenburg foal certificate which the mare owner probably presented at the inspection, and unaware that the two are not affiliated. If this person would have asked Heike if they were the same registry, I guarantee you that Heike would have given her a detailed explanation. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

aurum

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:27 AM

Well in Germany a stallion has to be presented to another registry to get this registry's full approval and to avoid the "special allowance" fee. But we CAN ask for special allowances which are given from case to case if the stallion meets the approval standard and the stallion test requirements of the Verband the allowance is asked from. This allowance has to be asked BEFORE the mare is bred otherwise it is a NO afterwards. The Hessen and RPSI have another thing they do in addition: when a mare has not yet been approved with them and she has a foal at her side by an approved stallion of another Verband, then they fully accept that foal into their books as mare and foal are coming totally new into their books.

Here in this case, it is the fault of the breeder. Heike's contract is clear and the stallion is not approved ISR/Old NA so the breeder made a mistake, not Heike and not ISR, that is my opinion.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

graystonefarm

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:33 AM

Wow! Talloaks, I'm sorry I angered you.

At no time did Heike state that the ISR was not correct in disallowing the foal's registration. Her point is only that there are still some people confused and unaware that there are two separate Oldenburg registries.

I'm sure EVERY ISR host has heard of Heike and her contracts in connection with her forbidding their offspring to be registered with the ISR, unless they are also uneducated about there being two separate registries.

I stand by my statement that it is the responsibility of the host to check and make sure that the mares are eligible for acceptance and that the foals are eligible for registration. If it means that they check every stallion, then so be it! I did, and will do so again next year. I would feel terrible if something like that happened at my inspection and I didn't catch it while doing the necessary paperwork.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

[This message was edited by graystonefarm on Sep. 28, 2003 at 02:32 PM.]

aurum

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:47 AM

Sherry, I am sorry, but totally disagree with you. It is the responsibility of the stallion owner to tell the breeder to which registry the mare and foal can be presented and it is the breeder's responsibility to ask if he/she doesn't know! It is not the responsibility of anyone else other than these two. It would be very unfair to hold a host responsible for such since already a host has tons to do for such an event. What still is not clear to me is why Heike said that the ISR was misleading the breeder, so perhaps there is more to that story... Heike were are you, tell us more and why the ISR has mislead the breeder and with what. Did they accept mare and foal for registration before and did not do so after, that would be a reason to say the breeder was mislead, but other than that I cannot think of anything else.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

talloaks

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:06 AM

graystonefarm stated:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Wow! Talloaks, I'm sorry I angered you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

graystonefarm, you did not anger me!! Why would you say that? I was only trying to SIMPLIFY so everyone could understand the problem, which comes directly from Heiki's personal stallion service contract and nothing else, not the hosts of the inspection, not the ISR/OLDNA, only her responsibility to explain to HER CLIENTS so that they understand that she, HEIKI, has a personal preference and if not followed she, HEIKI, threatens a lawsuit against HER CLIENT.

I guess Heiki is the only one who has this type of a clause in their stallion service contract.

And as a host, I am not passing judgement on any of the horses/foals that will be inspected as to whether they are eligible or not. That is up to the inspector and I am not doing his job, only trying to gather up all the paperwork to make things as easy as possible for him to do his job and for the participants to have their horses/foals inspected/branded in pleasant and well run inspection.

Don't shoot the messenger!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

graystonefarm

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
graystonefarm, you did not anger me!! Why would you say that? http://www.talloaksfarm.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Talloaks. I guess my flamesuit was on too tight! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

Dinah-do

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:23 AM

WOW In my entire life I have never heard of anything so strange as this thread. If anybody still thinks that there is not the tiniest bit of politics with this WB breeding stuff let me know- I have a big old bridge to sell you. IMO Heike s/b pleased the foals are alive healthy and going somewhere not where she thinks they should go!!!

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
Now how many hosts are familiar with each stallion owners contracts?? http://www.talloaksfarm.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talloaks- I would agree that a host, most would not know everyone stallion owners contract. But I would say that hosts do have easy access to their stallion list (I think all of them are online at the least) and could easily tell if a foal by a non-approved stallion was to be presented.

But yes, Heike, which registry did this mare owner indicate that she was seeking to have the foal registered with?

ise@ssl

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:45 AM

Well grayfox you assumed incorrectly. Breeders/Owners presenting mares/foals are NOT required to pay before attending an ISR/OLDNA inspection. (I believe some registries do require this - NAWPN is one).

People are required to contact the host at each site to inform them what they will be presenting at the inspection. I wouldn't be surprised if the person just told them it was a mare & foal. Hosts aren't supposed to be doing research on whether or not the stallions are approved. Breeders should be asking these questions BEFORE they sign the breeding contract - not after the foal is on the ground. It's my understanding this stallion owner specifically stipulates in her breeding contracts that the foals CANNOT BE PRESENTED to the ISR/OLDNA registry - so I'm totally confused as to why the person went to this inspection.

talloaks

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:46 AM

carosello replied:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> But I would say that hosts do have easy access to their stallion list (I think all of them are online at the least) and could easily tell if a foal by a non-approved stallion was to be presented. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the stallion directory is available but one never knows if someone paid a permit for a stallion that is not on the list. Heiki's situation is unique, definitely a ONE AND ONLY contract. I still believe it is the inspector's business and not that of the host to determine who should bring which horse/foal and who shouldn't bring which horse/foal. We are only hosting for an organization, NOT making judgement calls.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Daydream Believer

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dinah-do:
WOW In my entire life I have never heard of anything so strange as this thread. If anybody still thinks that there is not the tiniest bit of politics with this WB breeding stuff let me know- I have a big old bridge to sell you. IMO Heike s/b pleased the foals are alive healthy and going somewhere not where she thinks they should go!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You said that better than I tried to! It's all about politics isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

talloaks

Sep. 28, 2003, 10:54 AM

Dinah-do and Daytime Believer, I think you've got the big technicolor picture alright!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

ise@ssl

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:02 AM

What Politics??

A breeder signed a contract that had specified terms - they are BOUND by their signature. It's not the responsbility of a HOST of an ISR/OLDNA inspection to take this breeder by the hand and sit them down and ask them to read what they signed and agreed to!!

I've hosted 9 inspections. I spend a tremendous amount of time helping first time breeders but I CANNOT ask to see the contract they signed with the stallion owner and if it has some restrictions, etc.

I don't think this is about any registries or politics - it's about people taking responsibility. READ BEFORE YOU SIGN. Not understanding what you signed is not legal excuse.

Can I tell you how many people are given misinformation from people selling young horses that were NEVER registered and then told oh....they can get papers from the ISR/OLDNA. I had to spend in excess of 10 hours helping some poor woman in this situation this year. I don't feel this was something I HAD to do as a host - it was something I did because the BREEDER didn't read her contract and NEVER read the rules/regulations for our registry - she wasn't even a member. Wouldn't return the woman's phone calls, etc.

If a stallion owner has specific prohibitions regarding registries - they should perhaps have the other party to the contract specifically initial that clause. If people don't read whay they sign it should not fall on the back of a person voluntarily hosting an inspection. THIS GOES FOR ANY REGISTRY.

Tom King

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:16 AM

Oh, good grief!!

It looks like the most important thing here is to decide who is to blame.

In dog showing there is a coveted title called Winners Bitch. Who wins the T-shirt?

Daydream Believer

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Farmdad:
Oh, good grief!!

It looks like the most important thing here is to decide who is to blame.

In dog showing there is a coveted title called Winners Bitch. Who wins the T-shirt?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely laughing so hard that I'm in tears. Thank You Farmdad!

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

breezymeadow

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:27 AM

I have pretty much had my fill of the registries. It's expensive, political, and proves NOTHING. I have seen some absolutely FABULOUS horses that went to inspections & didn't go "premium", etc.

Who cares. As I stated in a different thread - do a lineup of examples of the different warmblood types - can any of you HONESTLY say that you can pick out the Oldenburg from the Holsteiner? The Swedish Warmblood from the Dutch? Please. A good horse is a good horse. Period.

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

Kinsella

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:57 AM

Maybe I am wierd, but I see exactly where Heike is coming from... When I read the letter from Cheryl THIS is what jumps out at me...<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:
He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, to be fair, yes, Cheryl is in the wrong for not doing homework, but the ISR is claiming to be something they are not... That is what Heike's problem is. It's not about the fact that Cheryl presented the horse to the wrong registry or that it was not approved, but about the ISR's claim that they are the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S.. They aren't.

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

pintofoal

Sep. 28, 2003, 12:09 PM

Kinsella, I highly doubt "they" (any official from ISR/OLD NA) used the term "Oldenburg Verband in the US" that is how Cheryl relayed what she thought she "heard" I have NEVER heard anyone from ISR/OLD NA refer to themselves or the registry as the Oldenburg Verband in USA or any other sort of way other then Oldenburg North America or ISR. Remember Cheryl probably stewed about this for many, many hours before reporting what happened to Heike at her inspection. She had to finish the inspection, trailer home, etc. What exactly was said by then was Cheryl's interpretation of what she remembered being said

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

GW Ranch

Sep. 28, 2003, 12:12 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I just had to get the original post of my chest. Sorry I did not mean to step on peoples feet……

Please..... Let me explain some things.... I am not angry by the fact that the ISR did not give Cheryl papers, but the fact they lied to her.

First of all, there are several reasons of why I put that statement, regarding the ISR and the foals, in my contract.
First: I wanted people to “WAKE UP” so to speak about the registry and ask questions. Do you know of how many people think the ISR is the GOV?? Trust me many…. I wanted people to ask questions and make their OWN decision of which registry they wanted papers from. If it is ISR, which is fine, then they need to choose another stallion since none of mine are approved by them.
Second: I do not want to support a registry which I feel has ethical “challenges”. I do not think it is right what they have done in the past (IT IS IN THE PAST), but now I do not think it is right for them not to say one word anywhere (on the web site, or any newsletter or correspondence) about that they are not the GOV….. Yes a lot of people SHOULD know, but they don’t and here is a good example…. It is a shame… Here is a lady that has spend over 1 year in breeding and raising her DREAM foal… and now this.. It is sad…..

That brings me to the next point…. BUD is no longer in the USA. I believe (but I might be wrong) that they accept foals from stallions that stand in Europe (like DeNiro, Sandro Hit, etc.)… OK he is in Europe…

ALSO, she should have gotten something.. if not ISR papers???

Also… telling somebody that I did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S.. the word here is OLDENBURG VERBAND…. When did they become the Oldenburg Verband . that is CLEAR deception … They are NOT the Oldenburg Verband….. they are the ISR/OLD NA…… This is why more people are getting confused and are getting frustrated…. I do not think it is right to lie to your breeders…. That is clearly a lie….

Heike (sorry.. just frustrated)

Sincerely
Heike Albert
http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch

Kinsella

Sep. 28, 2003, 12:14 PM

Liz - you are right, I didn't think about how Cheryl may have interpreted what was actually said...

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

GW Ranch

Sep. 28, 2003, 12:25 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I think Cheryl worte exactly what she has heard... I can hear it now....

Do you think they would say.. I did not present him to the ISR in the U.S?? NO

Do you think they would say I did not present him to the Oldenburg North American division.. I don't think so....

I reason I think the wording is right (just my opinion)
Heike

[This message was edited by GW Ranch on Sep. 28, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:06 PM

Heike, It still remains that this is hear-say. You didn't hear this conversation yourself. Cheryl might have heard wrong since she obviously was not familiar with either registry. When she wrote the email she was angry and probably exhausted.

I have never heard anyone associated with the ISR refer to themselves as the Oldenburg Verband. I have serious doubts that anyone did.

You can't babysit all your breeders. They need to be accountable for their own registrations and inspections. It was an unfortunate error on Cheryl's part, but one that can be rectified next year.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:

I have never heard anyone associated with the ISR refer to themselves as the Oldenburg Verband. I have serious doubts that anyone did.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, well does that count for members too? Before we had our first inspection we were looking for an appropriate site which could handle stallions. I met with a woman who was breeding Oldenburgs. When I went to the farm and took a tour she showed me her stock. They were ISR/OLDNA but she did not admit that..she kept telling me that they were Verband. I tried to explain the difference but then seeing I was making no headway just decided to seek another site.
Not but 2 months ago I received a phone call from a local FEI dressage rider asking me about the scores the Verband used. She gave me points for 2 years worth of foals. Low and behold she was looking at sales babies from this farm all being advertised as Oldenburg Verband.

Equine Reproduction

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:32 PM

Chocolate anyone? Personally I LOVE nice, dark, rich chocolate!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Seminars
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:34 PM

Kathy- your right. Its cold and rainy today. Im thinking Hot chocolate with whipped cream.

~~~yummy~~~

Equine Reproduction

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by carosello:
Kathy- your right. Its cold and rainy today. Im thinking Hot chocolate with whipped cream.

~~~yummy~~~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh..oh!!! How's about adding some peppermint schnapps to that mix??? It's WAYYyyyyy too hot here (Reno, Nevada today <sigh&gthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif to be thinking hot chocolate - maybe a nice, cold, blended Margarita <big happy smile>...Perhaps after today's seminar.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Seminars
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by carosello:
OK, well does that count for members too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carosello, no that doesn't. The ISR/ONA cannot be held responsible for ignorance of some members. Nor can the GOV be held responsible for ignorance among their member ranks. There are people lacking in knowledge or education all over this world. The Oldenburg registries cannot claim this as their exclusive domain.

I'm talking about employees and advisors of the registry. I've never heard any officer, employee or advisor of the ISR/ONA represent themselves in any way as being associated with the GOV.

The bottom line is when someone is discussing their Oldenburg, don't "assume" you know with whom they are registered. ASSUME (ASS-U-ME) is an anachronism for making an A$$ out of U and ME. Just ASK them. It's that simple.

BTW, I like a grande Latte with a hint of hazelnut... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

ahf

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:56 PM

I'm not going to wade into the politics of this discussion, but I did want to address one point. I cannot even CONCEIVE of the decision on whether or not your mare and/or foal is eligible to be presented - being left up to the site inspection hosts. The hosts are just that...hosts. They are kind enough to donate their facility, and put countless hours into making the stabling/grounds presentable and comfortable for their guests. No one who offers to do this should be asked to perform in any kind of official capacity for the registry. I am amazed at the idea. One of the sites for my registry (which is neither of the ones mentioned above) is owned by folks that are not even residents here in the US. It is their farm staff who pulls everything together. As a member, I do not expect, not do I WANT someone who is not employed and intimately familiar with the rules of the registry to determine the eligibility of my mare/foal. That's what the office is for.

Though I know a lot of registries try to be inclusive, situations like the one described above could be avoided altogether by having the papers presented to the office ahead of time, with no last minute entries accepted.

Edgar

Sep. 28, 2003, 01:59 PM

Well guess what, I went to the store and got some great Dutch Chocolate, I asked for it and they pointed it out so I bought it like I did many times before. When I got home I noticed on the label it was no longer Dutch, they had sold the license to an American Company. Boohoo they lied to me - I just may have to file a complaint. OOh wait a minute it is still made in the same factory and still tastes the same......
Have great day everybody!

Edgar

www.rainbowequus.com (http://www.rainbowequus.com) Home of Fuerst Gotthard "The Titleist" Pablito, Grandom & Landkönig

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:03 PM

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:04 PM

Here Edgar maybe this will help you
http://www.hollandbymail.com

but Im still trying to figure out what chocolate "letters" are???

Oakstable

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:13 PM

There's a lot of would-a, should-a, could-a in these postings. There are plenty of people in this thread who have heard the O NA at many, many inspections and they do NOT say they are the Oldenburg Verband. Unless you have something on audio tape, this is secondhand hearsay. Let it go. There are some mare owners who stick within one registry and others, like me, who use a variety of registeries for various reasons. And we like to get along. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Edgar

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:17 PM

Carosello, that is so cute you took that serious, but since you did I will seriously answer your letter mystery:

Every year in Holland on the 5th of December St. Nicolaus is celebrated. It is tradition as part of the presents given (like here during Christmas)that a chocolate letter, about the size of your hand a pound or so be given. It is the first letter of your name, in my case I received and ate many E's. The Dutch companies Droste and Verkade and several others make the whole alphabet. See no more mystery!

Edgar

www.rainbowequus.com (http://www.rainbowequus.com) Home of Fuerst Gotthard "The Titleist" Pablito, Grandom & Landkönig

ise@ssl

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:27 PM

Funny - at Dressage at Devon for the awards ceremony for the 5 & 6 yo North American Young Horse Championships the announcer kept saying it was sponsored by the "Oldenburg Registry". I kept hoping someone would point out it was the ISR/OLDNA. After all the ISR/OLDNA Registry, HIlltop Farm, Stargate Farm and Smartstart were the sponsors - to the tune of $20,000!! I was worried people would be confused and thing the Oldenburg Verband shelled out the dough!!! Maybe I should sue! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Any chocolate is fine with me - JUST LEAVE OUT THE NUTS!!!

Sporthorse South

Sep. 28, 2003, 02:29 PM

I have organized the Georgia GOV inspections for 4 years now, and I learned very early that mare owners are often VERY confused about the difference between GOV and ISR/ONA. I have a pretty good entry form that asks for sire/dam/damsire of each horse being inspected, and is also broken down by class - mares only, mares w/foals (both to be inspected), and foals only (dam previously inspected and approved by GOV). I pay close attention to the sires of the foals, and cross-check them against the GOV stallion roster for the year the foal was sired. If I see a sire that is not on that list, I contact the mare owner and let them know that there may be a problem, and explain the options (sire may be granted a breeding allowance by GOV, extra fee to register the foal, or sire may NOT be acceptable to GOV and the foal gets either a CoP or nothing at all). If necessary, I contact the registry for clarification beforehand.

I also require that people presenting a mare send a photocopy of the mare's registration papers to me with their entry, so I can give them a head's up about the mare's eligibility for the various mare books. The same with foals whose dams are supposedly already in the GOV mare books - I require that the foal owner send me a photocopy of the dam's registration papers showing the GOV stamp and her mare book status so there won't be any surprises at the inspection. You won't believe how many times I have had a mare owner tell me that "the mare is in the Oldenburg Main Mare Book", but when I get a copy of her papers, I see that the stamp is for ISR/ONA, which means that she must be inspected for entry into the GOV mare books, so I contact the mare owner and explain the situation to her. Yes, it is a huge amount of extra work on my part, but my inspections usually run like clockwork, the breeders know what to expect when they get to the inspection, and the inspectors aren't put in the position of explaining things over and over and over again to one breeder after another.

Given all the confusion in North America about Oldenburg, ISR, etc., I feel like it is my responsibility as a site host to try to make things a little less stressful for my inspection participants and for the inspectors, and I can't imagine doing things any other way.

Sporthorse South

Sep. 28, 2003, 03:30 PM

Oh, yeah, one other thing. Regarding the fact that some site hosts either don't understand the difference between the two registries or deliberately gloss over the differences - we had an ISR site host here in our area for several years who repeatedly told people that ISR was the official Oldenburg registry because it owned the brand. I've known these folks for quite a few years, and they aren't exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but I never could figure out if they really understood the whole situation themselves, or if they were just being deliberately ambiguous because they stand several ISR-approved stallions (and are now actually high "muckety-mucks" with ISR). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ise@ssl

Sep. 28, 2003, 03:37 PM

Gee Chris - I'm sure the people you refer to will enjoy your analysis of their intelligence on this BB! Can we keep it to the issue and not get personal?

Castlegate

Sep. 28, 2003, 03:51 PM

Ok, I have only been exposed to the whole Oldenburg thing for 3 years BUT, I don't get the confusion....people need to just consider the two registries as different registries until such time something canges, IF it ever does! Personally, I don't care if it does...people can keep their preferences as far as which one is better....When I bought my GOV baby three years ago, I made it my problem to understand....this in my opinion just isn't any different from trying to take your foal to the AHS when one or neither parent is approved there....they just aren't eligible....EVery registry has it rules, its stallions and its mares....some obvioulsy cross over....each owner just needs to know what they have and deal with it....present mares and foals to the RIGHT registry! I guess my point is that if a rookie like me could figure it out why is this so difficult for people?

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:00 PM

EXACTLY Castlegate!!!

Thank you. I was starting to wonder if I was the only person who is NOT confused by this whole thing.

Two separate registries. Period. No confusion.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

FionaJ

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:10 PM

Understanding the anger and heated feelings generated between the two organizations especially since they have generated specific contractual statments in Heike's stallion agreements to the point of sueing potential clients, I have to point out that when one prepares for an inspection, you don't just "show up" and as part of that, participants have to fill out forms and send to the host. If Cheryl did so, and filled out the correct form as listed on the ISR web site it clearly listed in no uncertain terms that it was an ISR inspection, and if Heike was clear about her contract, then the only problem and one to blame her is the breeder.

From the form on the web site

"International Sporthorse Registry/Oldenburg Registry N.A.
E N R O L L M E N T - F O R M
For ISR - OLDENBURG N.A. Mare & Foal Inspection
( Print this form, complete it and mail it to the relevant host/site. )"

You just can't miss that.

As to who the correct Oldenburg registry is and the fact that the ISR is lying--it is a matter of perspective that has been hashed and rehashed and it looks like your client's mistake is just another attempt to do just that. Bottom line, she was wrong. And technically, in a court of law, what she reported to you is hearsay, so while I understand your being angry, the only one you really have to be angry at is your client because the rest is just the same old argument.

Policy of Truth

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:21 PM

This thread makes me wonder just how this particular warmblood has survived in North America http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

With all the other warmblood registries and breeds, WHY would anyone want to bother with this insanity? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

narcissus

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:
ALSO, she should have gotten something.. if not ISR papers???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heike, I'm still confused. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Your contract clearly states that the resulting offspring cannot be registered ISR/OldNA. You even write that you will go so far as to sue if they are. So then why are you upset/frustrated that Cheryl's filly was denied ISR papers?

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
This thread makes me wonder just how this particular warmblood has survived in North America http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pacificsolo, It's all about business. Think of Coke vs Pepsi, McDonalds vs BurgerKing, Sears vs JC Penney, Disney World vs Sea World. Each pair offers similar products. Customers usually choose between them based on quality of service and other benefits.

There are enough customers and potential customers to keep both of them financially viable for years. There is no reason why they can't co-exist.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

breezymeadow

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:47 PM

is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

stillpointfarm

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:50 PM

Castlegate.... I can't agree with you more.... but, there are some people on this board who are nothing more than rabble rousers who do nothing but try to create more controversy for their own self gratification and personal vendettas. I've read Heike's contract and I'm not an attorney nor do I pretend to be one and had no problem totally understanding it's wording relating to what registries were acceptable. It's the responsibility of the mare owner to make sure their mare is acceptabile to the registry that they plan on presenting her to, and that the stallion is also acceptable. I find it difficult to believe that some one would spend that kind of money (breeding fee), and time without researching all the necessary facts. Having said this, we understand Heike's frustration having been in a somewhat similar situation with standing a stallion and dealing with mare owners. Standing a stallion or stallions is a difficult business and people like Angela, Liz, Heike, and others are one man bands and spend countless hours on the the phone, answering questions year after year to mare owners. They deserve our support because of their tireless devotion and endless commitment to improving the availability of bloodline options to our improving breeding stock in this country.

Oakstable

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:51 PM

Anyone who enjoys stirring the pot, but is a fan of one or the other registry really does a disservice to both. Most people really don't want to be dragged into political infighting. I think RPSI stands to benefit as they accept all WB stallions who have been approved overseas, at least that's my understanding. The two O registeries have a tremendous overlap in bloodlines. Edgar's joke about the chocolate is a perfect little allegory. Change the name but the chocolate is the same.

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 04:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breezymeadow, is that all you could contribute? And you had to post the exact same thing on three threads?

This is a legitimate discussion and so far relatively civil. I see nothing ridiculous about the discussion.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

flshgordon

Sep. 28, 2003, 06:26 PM

OK I have read enough that I just HAVE to step in here and say my peace and be done with it....

I have a mare approved with Old NA...not because it is the only place I could get her approved, but because it offered me the most versatility IMO as far as stallion choices (since I had her approved before I made my stallion choice). Secondly...I have a BEAUTIFUL filly that I will be taking to Old NA inspection in 3 weeks out of a wonderful Hanoverian stallion (Edgar's Landkonig) and I do not for one minute regret the fact that she will be registered there. Perhaps the next foal will be registered there, perhaps it will be somewhere else, each horse is an individual to me. I own 3 horses of 3 different breeds/registries and I feel each has his/her own redeeming qualities and merits. There is a different fit for everyone and if there's something you don't like about one registry, there is always somewhere else you can go, but honestly I am sick of the constant unnecessary bickering between the Old NA and Verband supporters. I have been a spectator at several Old NA inspections and never ONCE have I heard anyone there use the term Verband (spectators, hosts or inspectors). In fact, I imagine they have been severely cautioned not to say such a thing after all the litigation and I seriously doubt anyone there would be foolish enough to say such a thing. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding by Heike's client...in fact if she didn't know there was a difference in the two registries in the first place, how could it be possible to know exactly what she interpreted. I think Heike has some wonderful stallions and it is a shame that this happened the way it did, but I haven't even bred to one of her stallions and I certainly read over the contract when I was stallion shopping. Yet another reason to make sure you read everything you sign!

I guess I am just irritated that I never hear anyone defending anyone besides the GOV around here....maybe this BB just always swings to their side, but I am sure I am not the only one who has a foal/foals that will be inspected by/registered with them and I think it's time this stopped being so darned one sided.

And by saying this, it is not an invitation for people to step in and say X registry stole this or Z registry said this, I just think it's stupid for anyone to go around here trying to make others feel like their horses aren't worth crap because they chose one registry over the other.

Flame suit zipped tight!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

pintofoal

Sep. 28, 2003, 06:49 PM

flash no disrespect intended but my interpretation + my input was defending ISR/OLD NA in this matter and others who are staunch supporters of GOV also supported ISR/OLD in this issue--I think maybe you are not seeing this in the previous posts, unless I misunderstood your quote <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I guess I am just irritated that I never hear anyone defending anyone besides the GOV around here....maybe this BB just always swings to their side, but I am sure I am not the only one who has a foal/foals that will be inspected by/registered with them and I think it's time this stopped being so darned one sided <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

fullmoon fever

Sep. 28, 2003, 07:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The Dutch companies Droste and Verkade and several others make the whole alphabet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so far this is the ONLY thing I've understood! I can't find my beloved Droste coacoa here (Toronto) anymore; and only Droste is good enough for my chocolate cakes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

carosello

Sep. 28, 2003, 07:12 PM

http://www.hollandbymail.com/item_list/specialties/cacao_vanhouten.html

http://www.hollandbymail.com/item_list/specialties/droste_cocoa_tin.html

Is this what you are looking for?

Oh Edgar, yes I did follow you before http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

fullmoon fever

Sep. 28, 2003, 07:32 PM

carosello - YES! That is it. The one with the nun on the box. It used to be readily available in my local grocery store, but not anymore...did Canada have a problem with the Netherlands that no one told me about? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I sure hope not since I will be expecting a foal by a KWPN sire next spring! (Although I must say this thread has me very concerned...I haven't done the "warmblood thang" before.)

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

flshgordon

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pintofoal:
flash no disrespect intended but my interpretation + my input was defending ISR/OLD NA in this matter and others who are staunch supporters of GOV also supported ISR/OLD in this issue--I think maybe you are not seeing this in the previous posts, unless I misunderstood your quote <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I guess I am just irritated that I never hear anyone defending anyone besides the GOV around here....maybe this BB just always swings to their side, but I am sure I am not the only one who has a foal/foals that will be inspected by/registered with them and I think it's time this stopped being so darned one sided <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Liz Hall http://silverwoodfarm.com
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Pintofoal, I didn't get through every one of the responses and you're right, it did seem that many that I read were supporting the Old NA in not registering the foal, it was more just a general *vent* I guess that people generally seem to try to make one or the other feel like a lesser registry and I think that is just flat out silly (for everyone not just me!).

No disrespect taken whatsoever http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I have much thicker skin that that http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Oakleigh

Sep. 28, 2003, 08:44 PM

Flshgordon,

I'll support the ISR/ONA. I have several mares and foals registered with them. They provide superior customer service.

But, I also have some registered with the GOV... It fit their bloodlines and the stallion I wanted to breed them to.

My point is that I support both of them. Both have a place in my breeding program. I was just trying to point out earlier that Heike has no legitimate gripe with ISR/ONA. It should be with the breeder who cannot/does't read.

It doesn't serve any purpose to polarize in this discussion. Either way....the breeder, Cheryl is at fault.

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

Daventry

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:01 PM

Holy! Take a pill GW. You have "proof that the ISR/Oldenburg is misleading the public"? Sorry, I don't see it.

You say that you "want people...make their OWN decision of which registry they wanted papers from". Your not really providing your clients with ANY choice on a registry with your [restrictive] contract. For what it's worth, it's your stallion and your contract and you can do anything you like with it but don't sit there and say your giving the public a choice and a right to choose. You're NOT! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I do not think it is right for them not to say one word anywhere (on the web site, or any newsletter or correspondence) about that they are not the GOV <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, they are the ISR/Oldenburg NA which IS stated right on their website. Last time I checked, the Canadian Hanoverian and American Hanoverian Society DON'T say on their website...WE are NOT the German Verband. The American Warmblood Society does NOT say "We are NOT the American Warmblood Registry. Come on! You're really grasping at straws here. If your statement had any validity to it, then maybe the GOV website should have "We are not the ISR/Oldeburg" on their front page! And if I'm not mistaken, the ISR/Oldenburg has been around in the US for a lot longer than the GOV so I would think that would give the ISR/Oldenburg seniority over having to place a statement on their website.

As with any foal presented at an ISR/Oldenburg inspection, by an unapproved stallion, the filly would have been eligible for a birth certificate. Yourself, as a breeder and stallion owner, rather than bitching about it, maybe put some thought into helping out your client by suggesting she take the filly to a GOV inspection or similar and also encourage her to get her foal out to any breed shows in the area, etc. There are many babies out there that have missed their keurings, for one reason or another, and have amounted to something on this earth! And like everyone else, what Cheryl told you the ISR said about your stallion not being presented is hearsay and unless you heard it directly, who knows what the exact wording was.

I have to say that I have seen photos of the stallion Budweiser but after reading this whole thread, I'll always remember to steer clear of you. Whether you believe in any registry, etc. or not, you do our industry no good with your higher than thou attitude.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Daventry Farms
www.daventryfarms.com (http://www.daventryfarms.com)
Quality sport horses and ponies!

[This message was edited by Erin on Sep. 29, 2003 at 10:05 AM.]

flshgordon

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:

My point is that I support both of them. Both have a place in my breeding program.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Wish everyone would adopt the attitude that both serve their specific market/purpose!

aurum

Sep. 28, 2003, 09:31 PM

Daventry, sorry but I think the Nazi comment was not okay and appropriate!

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Palomino Leopard WB

Sep. 28, 2003, 11:18 PM

The point is and what is misleading to the public is that ISR says Oldenburg NA. A breeder who might not be familiar with the registries would see that and automatically assume that they were the Oldenburg registry for North America. It has nothing to do with them not saying that they are not the Oldenburg Verband on their website or in public. I cannot think of another registry where this comfusion is a problem.
Point being that I was once confused and actually had a horse approved ISR/Old so maybe I am ignorant as well. So, it can and does happen. If the registry is not associated with the Oldenburg Verband in Germany which it no longer is then they should have continued to use the name ISR only. I personally have always believed that the name was kept to intentially mislead people into thinking the horses were Oldenburgs.
You will however find people with ISR/Old horses that insist their horses are Oldenburgs so why wouldn't a breeder be confused.

Maren

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:15 AM

I'm confused...just trying to understand, what exactly is the difference between the two Oldenburg registries and what's the historic side (when did they separate? did they ever separate? were they made up at the same time by different groups?). I'm just trying to learn, so if anybody has the time/interest in educating me, I'm here. Use PM if you wish.

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

Maren

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:19 AM

Oh, forget last post, found it elsewhere...

www.trakehners-international.com (http://www.trakehners-international.com)

graystonefarm

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daventry:
I do not think ... Hello, they are the ISR/Oldenburg NA which IS stated right on their website. Last time I checked, the Canadian Hanoverian and American Hanoverian Society DON'T say on their website...WE are NOT the German Verband. The American Warmblood Society does NOT say "We are NOT the American Warmblood Registry.
Daventry Farms
http://www.daventryfarms.com
Quality sport horses and ponies!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daventry, considering your examples above, everything would be much clearer if the ISR had chosen to include "American" as part of their name, i.e., "American Oldenburg". There would be much less confusion.

Jumpin Jack, can you see where this is leading? This is mild, so far, but this topic has shut down entire websites more than once.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

Twinkletozzz

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:29 AM

I do not understand Heike's complaint and post. Heike's contract is (was, at least) really specific. If you want to take your foals by her stallions to ISR/OldNA, forget it. And if you do take them, there could be legal consequences from her against you. Abundantly clear to me.

Heike, where are you now in this thread? I don't understand why you are thinking anything beyond the fact that a client of yours, Cheryl, made a mistake and presented her foal at the wrong inspection, in itself an astonishing accomplishment given all the paperwork involved.

Why can't these two registries exist well side by side? They do! They have been! It's only here on these and other forums that it gets ugly. Let's move on.

Daedalus, Able George, Flirting Cove http://community.webshots.com/user/twinkletozzz

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:33 AM

Palomino Leopard quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>If the registry is not associated with the Oldenburg Verband in Germany which it no longer is then they should have continued to use the name ISR only. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not a viable possibility as ISR (International Sporthorse Registry) is for the offspring of mares who are in the PREMARE BOOK or the MARE BOOK. These foals will be registered ISR and branded ISR.

OldenburgNA is for the offspring of mares who are in the MAIN MARE BOOK or the PREMIUM MARE BOOK. These foals are branded OldenburgNA.

This is how it has been since the organization was formed so it is down right silly to ask them to drop the OldenburgNA.

I hope this helps clarify some facts or misconseptions.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:55 AM

Thanks Bernie,

I think there are a few other misconceptions…

It gets stated repeatedly that the International Sporthorse registry / Oldenburg Registry North America won the right to continue to use the brand here in North America through some legal slight-of- hand or because our courts favored Americans over Germans… that is simply NOT true. All the principles involved on both sides, were German. The court decided in favor of ISR/Old NA because of the facts and the applicable law. That is evident in the court’s decision (which is available free on line).

Here’s another observation. For about a decade the GOV was more than happy to have a Brysch run organization approving and branding on their behalf in this country. Brysch was assisted by Dr. Rolland Ramsauer who was the both the GOV’s breeding Director in Germany and the North American Breeding Director (here in the U.S.) Dr Ramsauer was even on the ISR/Old NA Board until 1998. It is hard to argue that Dr. Ramsauer didn’t have good credentials to inspect and brand Oldenburgs. Most all of the Oldenburg in this county who were inspected and branded before 1998 were approved by Ramsauer and/or Brysch. So, the GOV had a direct hand in the approval of thousand of Oldenburgs in this country. These horse are in the books of BOTH organizations

Then, in 1996 there is some infighting (which had nothing directly to do with the interests of American breeders) and the GOV say effectively, “we’re going to pull the rug out from under Mr. Brysch and what he’s built in the United States for a decade." For a time the GOV sided with Ramsauer, later they fired him (or let him go).

The GOV wants to now claim some fantasy “high ground” by saying that they are THE Oldenburg registry… sorry I don’t buy it… What we’re speaking of here are breeding animals and a registry which identifies breeding animals… that means we’re speaking of more and more horses with each generation.. the GOV can’t simply say in 1998, “Well, we’ve decided to start something new… again... so forget all that we did before, forget the legal agreements we signed… now only the OHBS is any good… all the rest of what we did since 1988 doesn’t count. ”

IF you read what the GOV supporter say, their one claim is that the GOV follows the German rules… never once have I heard a GOV spokes persons say, “The GOV apologizes for the confusion and mess we’ve made of the American Oldenburg breeders market place.” Rather, I read mangled versions of the truth from avid GOV supporters about their self-serving interpretation of events (even garbage / gossip about my husband and myself) which polarize everyone and inflame the situation.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 08:23 AM.]

dray

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:13 AM

Ilona,

Thank you for pointing out that the case by csae provision exists with ISR provided the approval is granted prior to breeding. That is good clarification for me.

Oakleigh

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by graystonefarm:
... everything would be much clearer if the ISR had chosen to include "American" as part of their name, i.e., "American Oldenburg".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greystonefarm,

The offspring of mares produced by both the ISR/ONA and the GOV, born here, are ALL American Oldenburgs. Just go ask anyone who lives in the Oldenburg area of Germany. The only "real" Oldenburgs are born in Germany. You cannot even have an Oldenburg born in Schleswig-Holstein area of Germany. They are Oldenburgs because of the geographical area where they are born, in Germany. Oldenburg is a registry, not a breed.

This is like a discussion as to whether Coke or Pepsi is the REAL cola...

The ISR/ONA calls themselves Oldenburg North America, identifying their location. Germans laugh at us over the immaturity we show in arguing over these two registries.

My recommendation: Join both registries. Support both financially and with volunteer work. Don't polarize. Support a merger between them, quietly. Enjoy your horses no matter what registration papers they have. Your horse doesn't know what his/her registration papers say!

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:37 AM

Pat,
Re your quote<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The offspring of mares produced by both the ISR/ONA and the GOV, born here, are ALL American Oldenburgs. Just go ask anyone who lives in the Oldenburg area of Germany. The only "real" Oldenburgs are born in Germany. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is an excellent point! And I think you make many other excellent points.

Btw, yesterday afternoon when I locked my thread “We need one Oldenburg Registry in the America” http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=3206053911&m=66160748 I meant no offense to you. I hope you did not take it that way. I had read Carosello’s post and anticipated a flurry of chocolate posts. No offense to anyone who participates in that type of thing, but by choice I simply do not wish to be involved in a discussion of chocolate on a Sporthorse Breeding forum… so I closed the thread.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 08:48 AM.]

Dinah-do

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:40 AM

Hmmmm: Me thinks Heike should put in her breeding contract that foals by her stallions are not allowed in the big money ($20,000.00) class at DAD. After all it is sponsered by ISR/OLD as well as others. OR the ISR/OLD could stipulate that only ISR/OLD horses are eligible. Remove tounge from cheek. Truly incredible what breeders will put up with.

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:42 AM

God ... you've got that right!!!

ise@ssl

Sep. 29, 2003, 05:04 AM

Graystone - The ISR/OLDNA - does say Oldenburg Registry NORTH AMERICA. We do have many members from Canada and most people assume "America" is just the US. I don't see anywhere were we state any association with the German Verband in printed matter or on our website.

Good gracious! If people are adult enough to own and breed horses - then they should READ the contracts they sign and READ the RULES/REGULATIONS for associations they join and make their own decisions. If they don't do this and end up breeding to stallions that isn't approved by a certain registry - it isn't the registry's fault or the inspection host's fault .........it's their fault.

I'm still COMPLETELY CONFUSED by the mean faces posted for this TOPIC!! Heike stipulates in her contract that the foals CANNOT be papered/branded by the ISR/OLDNA or she will sue for big bucks $$. This breeder takes her mare and foal to an ISR/OLDNA inspection - I'll bet good money she DID NOT HAVE an ISR/OLDNA Breeding Certificate. Is told the mare can be inspected but not the foal and is apparantely furious about this. Heike posts that the ISR/OLDNA is misleading breeders and with the graphic faces implies anger at what happened.

Shouldn't she have a zillion happy faces that the ISR/OLDNA did not paper/brand or inspect the foal??? Can someone tell me if I'm missing something here?

Spot

Sep. 29, 2003, 05:43 AM

I think I am VERY happy that I breed colored Thoroughbreds ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif ... I thought that WE had problems in our little group, but it cant hold a candle to this controversy ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif ...

Is there not a win/win solution for all concerned so that everyone comes out happy?

I dont even to begin to profess to know what the whole situation is all about - who is more right than the other, and who was shafted and who is right.

All I know is that whenever these little "ISR" initials come up in a new thread, wow - let the fireworks begin!

Will it ever die down and then completely go away forever? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Spot"

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 05:55 AM

Here's a solution...

It is well known that two years ago the IRS/Old NA was close to coming to terms with the GOV to reunite…

In August of this year my husband and I had a discussion with the ISR/Old NA Inspector (after our Inspection). The issue of reuniting the registries came up in the discussion, as did the terms that the ISR /Old NA had offered. I would agree with the terms the ISR /Old NA had offered the GOV. i.e., that the ISR/Old NA continue to run the registry and Inspections in the United States (as they have done since 1988) and the GOV have a sale agent present to act as sales agent /sell German horses here.

If you look at the two Oldenburg registries, it is clear the ISR/Old NA has more interests in promoting American breeders… with more incentives and programs (like the 2003 North American Breeders Futurity Championship and $20,000 in prize money that they offered at Devon this year.) And, it is clear that the GOV basically wants to market their horses in this country… so why not go back to the original Oldenburg registry this country , the one started in 1988, (i.e., The International Sporthorse Registry - Oldenburg Registry North American, a.k.a. the ISR/Old NA) and let each group do what they both want to do? Everyone could benefit... especially American Oldenburg breeders.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 10:21 AM.]

Rainbow Farm Unltd.

Sep. 29, 2003, 06:32 AM

ise@ssl wrote:

"Good gracious! If people are adult enough to own and breed horses - then they should READ the contracts they sign and READ the RULES/REGULATIONS for associations they join and make their own decisions. If they don't do this and end up breeding to stallions that isn't approved by a certain registry - it isn't the registry's fault or the inspection host's fault .........it's their fault."

AMEN!!

I always love how people dive into these discussions with ways to "fix" other peoples' registries and organizations. You all who know so much better than the existing registry, go and start your own. Then you'll have it the way you want it.

No question this was the mare owner's fault for not reading her contract OR OldNA rules and licensed stallion listings, and -jmho- the mare owner's private business shouldn't even be posted here, never mind her contact information (unless with her permission).

As for you, Heike, you just can't have it both ways. You can't contract that Budweiser foals cannot be presented to OldNA and then make a stink that OldNA won't register them without an approved sire and a breeding certificate.

Barb Young
http://www.RainbowFarm.com
Premium Oldenburg sport horses and
First Premium American Sportponies

Layne Farm

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Rainbow Farm Unltd.No question this was the mare owner's fault for not reading her contract OR OldNA rules and licensed stallion listings, and -jmho- the mare owner's private business shouldn't even be posted here, never mind her contact information (unless with her permission).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you very much very well saidhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This whole situation should of been kept between gw and the mare owner.

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:27 AM

Cartier wrote:
Most all of the Oldenburg in this county who were inspected and branded before 1998 were approved by Ramsauer and/or Brysch. So, the GOV had a direct hand in the approval of thousand of Oldenburgs in this country. These horse are in the books of BOTH organizations
**************************************************

And here is the problem, the German Oldenburg Verband took believe in the people over there in the USA branding and registering the mares and foals for them in their name. They trusted and they believed that the people over there followed the RULES of the German Oldenburg Verband, BUT it was NOT done so. There have been entered QH, Paints and whatever American bred mares into the Oldenburg studbook or even main mare book (!!!) which is totally against the German Oldenburg and any rules of any German WB breeding association! And when the Verband got aware of this finally, they were shocked and they split and did not renew the contract. In this time the ISR did trademark the Oldenburg brand for their use which is the most unethical thing I can imagine and which very much hurts us German Oldenburg breeders. The Oldenburg Verband is not here to please the American wishes to influence QH or other American breeds, the Oldenburg Verband is here to have breeders follow their rules to breed fine and TRUE Oldenburg horses if here in Europe or over the pond in the USA and not some crosses that now are stamped Oldenburg just because some people did enter them into the Oldenburg books against the rules of the Oldenburg Verband and it is not correct to now slam the Oldenburg Verband for not having renewed their contract with the ISR/Oldenburg NA when they got aware of what is truly going on over there in America in their good name. We Oldenburg breeders where shocked when we read in our biggest national horse magazine RR that there are now "Oldenquarters and Quarterburgers" in the USA.

In fact the true Oldenburg horse is bred in Germany but there can be bred true Oldenburgs also in the USA if the rules of the true Oldenburg Verband are followed! The GOV cannot come to a union with the ISR as long as they do not have their brand back and as long as the GOV is not there to supervise if the rules are really followed. How could they trust anyone else again, that they do not again put QH or Paint or whatever into their main books. These mares can be entered into the pre-studbook and there nobody would say anything, but making them main mare book or studbook is a kick in the face of German Oldenburg breeders. The breeders of Germany have to follow the rules, why shouldn't the American breeders not do the same? If someone wants really to breed Oldenburg horses then it can only be done under the flag of the German Oldenburg Verband.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:35 AM

Y&AFARMS wrote

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> quote: Rainbow Farm Unltd.No question this was the mare owner's fault for not reading her contract OR OldNA rules and licensed stallion listings, and -jmho- the mare owner's private business shouldn't even be posted here, never mind her contact information (unless with her permission).

Thank you very much very well said This whole situation should of been kept between gw and the mare owner.

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ashley and Rainbow Farm Unltd, if you look who started this thread you will see that it is Heike of GWRANCH and she was asking for opinions. Go take a look at the first post.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Sonesta

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:38 AM

aurum, I must correct something you just posted. And I know this from first hand experience. I was THERE AND SAW IT.

The ISR/ONA NEVER put QH or paints in the main mare book. They were always put into the mare book which was the ISR book and NOT the ONA books. After the split between ISR and GOV, it was RAMSAUER himself who put a QH mare into the main mare book of the GOV's newly formed US affiliate (I don't remember what the first one was called. It was the one run by Judy Yancy.)

Gwen, I was THERE and the QH mare belonged to a friend of mine. This friend told me I should take my Appendix QH mare (that had been entered the year before into the ISR mare book) to the next year's inspection and have her entered into the GOV's main mare books (she had scored VERY highly with ISR/ONA and the inspector had made a point of telling the crowd that, while she was a top quality mare in her own right, her 1/8 QH blood meant she could NOT go into the ONA books).

And yes, I remember well the outrage in the German magazines about the QH mare being entered. I also remember how terribly unfair it was that these magazines (and the GOV) tried to make it sound like the ISR was the culprit. It was immediately after this that the GOV fired Ramsauer.

I am a member of both organizations and have foals registered with both. I wish to keep the record straight on facts. If you desire proof positive, I am certain I can obtain a copy of the QH mare's papers stamped by the GOV's US affilliate and NOT the ISR/ONA.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:43 AM

Thanks for posting Sonesta!! I had an appendix quarter horse mare accepted into the ISR mare book by Dr.Ramsauer in 1995, before the split, and the super colt, by the way, that she had by her side, went premium BUT was BRANDED and REGISTERED ISR!!! The mare had mostly racing TB blood the AQHA had used in their racing program. This mare is still one of the best horses I have ever owned. And her guy is out there knocking them over and has NEVER LOST A HACK CLASS, people come to the rail just to watch this guy float around the ring!!! He has earned numerous championships and the owners are THRILLED with him. Their trainer would like more like him, but because the mare has the AQHA blood, we have never rebred her.

The point is THE FOAL OUT OF THE APPENDIX QUARTER HORSE MARE IS REGISTERED AND BRANDED ISR (INTERNATIONAL SPORTHORSE REGISTRY) NOT OLDENBURGNA!!
"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

GW Ranch

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:43 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I am happy that the foal did not get any papers..... But I am upset that there are other people out there, like Cheryl, that do not know anything between the two registries and are confused.... I wish the ISR would do something to lessen the confusion... I am trying to educate the breeders to make up there OWN mind...... If you want Holst papers, choose a HOLST approved stallion.. If you want ISR/OLD NA papers.. choose an ISR/OLD NA approved stallion... etc... I guess the word OLDENBURG is what people have a problem with and which causes confusion.... Like Sea World.. and Sea World NA... one is actually Sea World and the other has only retiles (for example).....

Heike

Love the chocolate fudge cake at the "OUTBACK" with Ice cream...

Sincerely
Heike Albert
http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 07:59 AM

Rebecca,

please re-read what I have posted. I did not say the ISR/Old NA did, I did say that "these people" have done that in the name of the GOV, I have not said it was the ISR. The Oldenburg Verband trusted "these people" and so it was done, but one day the GOV got aware of it and then it was a big bummer.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Layne Farm

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> talloaks Ashley and Rainbow Farm Unltd, if you look who started this thread you will see that it is Heike of GWRANCH and she was asking for opinions. Go take a look at the first post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TallOaks, What i was saying is this stallion owner is very well known and we all know of her contract. For her to bring a private email on this forum is unprofessional to me even if she wanted opinions. She should do that in private. Not on a public fourm with peoples names involved unless the woman gave her permission!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>GW RANCH I am happy that the foal did not get any papers..... But I am upset that there are other people out there, like Cheryl, that do not know anything between the two registries and are confused.... I wish the ISR would do something to lessen the confusion...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why is the ISR responablity to fix this. You as a stallion owner should educate your breaders since you will not allow them to take there babies to the ISR/OLDNA in the 1st place. IMHO it is up to a breader to understand and get there facts straight or u7p to the stallion owner to make them understand your contracthttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif NOT THE ISR/OLDNA!!!

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

Twinkletozzz

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:05 AM

Thanks, Barb. My points....exactly!

Oakstable

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:07 AM

Oldenburg NA is not doing anything wrong. They clearly state who they are. They are very supportive of American breeders. I've been in that registry in years past but not presently. Not that I wouldn't again but my mares are Dutch and Trakehner and I am getting Dutch papers on my foals except for one TB who is Main Mare Book OV and that's where she will stay now for reasons of practicality.

Heike, you probably put more foals on the ground than any other breeder from the stallions in your operation. And ONE breeder shows up at the wrong inspection and now we have a thread that is going into six pages? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Tis is becoming inane. Why don't we discuss Dressage at Devon? It just took place and this is the biggest breed show in the states. Most entries are from the East Coast given the size of the country, but this is NEWS.

flshgordon

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:08 AM

WHOA Aurum....hasn't it always been the policy of Old NA NOT to accept QH mares into their main and premium mare books??? I'm not sure what exactly is the story behind this, but this is the kind of thing I was talking about last night that REALLY ticks me off!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The Germans claim we are making a mockery of their breed with the Old NA and that all those horses must be everyone else's breeding rejects or something....give me a break. The Old NA has some wonderful quality horses as does the GOV over here. I really take offense to the idea that we are in a sense trying to pollute your breed by adding quarter horses to it. I don't think that really is an idea in anyone's mind so don't blow it out of proportion over one incident. QH breeders don't want to cross with WBs and WBs don't want to cross with QHs. Sure maybe there was one stellar individual but it's NOT a raging trend.

BTW how can the GOV come back to supervise the Old NA (because I guess they are unable to breed quality horses on their own right?) when they are the ones that ran off and started their own new registry here in the first place....in effect saying that all the horses inspected/registered by them prior to that time were crap. Could they possibly be any more snotty about the whole situation???

**edited after I read several posts after yours....and have a better understanding since Rebecca's post. So Aurum, now I am to understand that you also have a problem with the GOV registry here as well since THEY entered the QH mare into the main book?? Seems as though you have it in for all US Oldenburg breeders?

Sonesta

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:11 AM

Gwen, since you were replying to a question as to why the ISR/ONA and GOV could not get back together, them implication was that the ISR/ONA was not following the GOV rules and then you gave your example of the QH mares. I just wanted to make it clear that it was NOT and never was the ISR/ONA putting those mares into the main mare book. It was the GOV, through Ramsauer. And the GOV rightly fired his ass for it.

Sonesta

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:19 AM

no flshgordon. Aurum does NOT have it in for anyone. She is a wonderful woman with wonderful horses. She was just presenting what she read and heard. I corrected her, that's all. Gwen is one of the nicest folks you would ever want to know.

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. 
"Find something you love & call it work."

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:19 AM

Gwen /Aurum you wrote<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> In fact the true Oldenburg horse is bred in Germany but there can be bred true Oldenburgs also in the USA if the rules of the true Oldenburg Verband are followed! The GOV cannot come to a union with the ISR as long as they do not have their brand back and as long as the GOV is not there to supervise if the rules are really followed. How could they trust anyone else again, that they do not again put QH or Paint or whatever into their main books. These mares can be entered into the pre-studbook and there nobody would say anything, but making them main mare book or studbook is a kick in the face of German Oldenburg breeders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About the Quarter Horse blood in the Oldenburg registries, you are totally wrong about the GOV. We saw Tommy Rhinnow of the GOV put an Appendix Quarter Horse mare in the GOV’s Mare Book at the High Point Hanoverian GOV inspection in 2000. WE have video of the event. So the GOV, by and through Dr. Ramsauer in 1995 (before the split) and again in 2000 by Mr Rhinnow has allowed Quarter Horse blood in their registry.

We have a mare who has an appendix QH in the fourth generation... the rest is all JC xx.. In 1995 this mare was put in the GOV's Main Mare book (with a 6.8) by Dr. Roland Ramsauer. We have video of this event and we now own the friggin mare and have all her paperwork. As you well know, in 1995 Dr Ramsauer was the GOV’s North American Breeding director. And when the split came (in 1997) the GOV sided with Ramsauer. So stop already with this nonsense about the GOV’s stance on Quarter Horses

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 01:02 PM.]

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:19 AM

flshgordon and cartier,

you too should please re-read my post. I was writing "these people" one of them being named by Cartier on the "Cartier wrote". Since I do not all know by name that have wrongly entered QH or Paints or such into the books. So please do not turn what I wrote. I clearly wrote "these people" that have done it in the name of GOV....bla bla ....did wrong!!! Never did I say that the ISR/Old NA did so! And sorry to say so but I think the Original Association of a Breed/Registry should be allowed to be present when horses are entered into their studbooks. It was done wrong times ago and that should not happen again, so when there should be a re-union of the both, then minimum ONE credible person of the GOV should be present. After all the Oldenburg Verband is a German Verband and sometimes Americans should admit that the rules to breed the Oldenburg horse have been set up by the GOV and nobody other.

Elaine, I guess that appendix QH mare was appendix because she had a lot of TB blood and if this was on top then the mare can be entered into the stud book without a problem since the TB is allowed. In this case the QH blood must have been in the third generation only. I would need to see the pedigree to know if it was okay or not. When I am talking about QH or Paint, then I mean if they do not fit into the books because they have a lot of TB or almost TB. What I have said is no nonsense at all.

And Elaine the GOV did not side with Dr. Ramsauer in fact they closed the doors behind him and he was out of the Verband. Also if your mare has the QH in the fourth generation and all the rest is TB then she should be able to be entered into the studbook, not main book, but stud book.

And flshgordon, we are not talking about ISR/Old NA not having quality horses, I was writing about the RULES and the respecting of THE RULES, not the quality of horses.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

[This message was edited by aurum on Sep. 29, 2003 at 12:33 PM.]

[This message was edited by aurum on Sep. 29, 2003 at 12:40 PM.]

Kinsella

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:24 AM

This statement is the exact reason why I don't care if my foals are registered or not. A nice horse is a nice horse is a nice horse no matter what is or is not burned onto his butt.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
This mare is still one of the best horses I have ever owned. And her guy is out there knocking them over and has NEVER LOST A HACK CLASS, people come to the rail just to watch this guy float around the ring!!! He has earned numerous championships and the owners are THRILLED with him. Their trainer would like more like him, but because the mare has the AQHA blood, we have never rebred her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I have her?? Seriously Talloaks, if you still have the mare and are not breeding her I'll take her off your hands via a lease or outright purchase so I can breed her! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS - nothing beats Hershey's kisses for a quick pick-me-up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heros ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And Elaine the GOV did not side with Dr. Ramsauer in fact they closed the doors behind him and he was out of the Verband. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me Gwen.

But the GOV absolutely DID side with Dr. Ramsauer… they even started two new registries with him in 1996, Oldenburger of American and Oldenburg Studbook North America which our courts in July of 2000 ruled were “unlawful.” Please please get your facts straight… I have too much respect for you to read you say such incorrect things.

IF the split was really about who put Quarter Horse blood in the registry, the GOV would have sided with Mr. Ekkehard Brysch, they didn’t… the GOV sided with Dr Ramsauer

And do you even know what an Appendix Quarter Horse is?

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 01:42 PM.]

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:43 AM

Elaine,

I was told that an appendix QH is a QH that has a lot of TB in his pedigree. If that is wrong then please explain what it truly is.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:45 AM

Gwen,

Here’s part of the problem.. you live in Germany where you and your countrymen would never allow such a cluster f_ck as the GOV has created here… and so you get dates wrong and facts scrambled, because a year or two here and there (or Quarter Horse – Appendix Quarter Horse) doesn’t really mean that much to you… This all doesn’t directly impact you or your business interests. IN fact, the chaos in our market place benefits German breeders because they can claim that they have the ONE TRUE Oldenburg and we poor American saps have something of lesser quality. Well, if indeed that is true, it’s because of how the GOV has mangled our market place.

Appendix is Quarter Horse is horse who has one parent who is a registered QH. Here’s a link to the AQHA website to check their rules http://www.aqha.com/association/registration/handbook.html

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 01:00 PM.]

ise@ssl

Sep. 29, 2003, 08:47 AM

Gwen -
You made the following statement above

"It was done wrong times ago and that should not happen again, "

but you keep implying that this happened at ISR/OLDNA inspections and the mares are in our mare books.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

The mares you speak of were approved by Roland under his Oldenburger whatever after he left the ISR/OLDNA. He represented he was representing the OLDENBURG VERBAND. How can you hold the ISR/OLDNA responsible for this?? He was not our employee at the time? And he had people from the Verband with him!

To this date the rules stand about QH and even Appendix QH mares (even fabulous mares) - they can only be in the Mare Book. Their foals get ISR PAPERS & BRAND.

HOw can the ISR/OLDNA make this any clearer.

And BTW - the article in the German magazine WAS CORRECT - and it did say that QH cross mares are in the OLDENBURG VERBAND system!!!! I have the article! Please stop confusing people. The ISR/OLDNA did not lower the standards for the Main Mare Book or Premium Marebook, not the pedigree and parentage verification requirements.

O>K> - as soon as I finish my barn work I'm heading to Clemon's market for a BOX of Mocha filled RING DINGS!! OK - were are talking trash chocolate here now - but I need a fix - BIG TIME!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:04 AM

Y&AFARMS said in quote

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>TallOaks, What i was saying is this stallion owner is very well known and we all know of her contract. For her to bring a private email on this forum is unprofessional to me even if she wanted opinions. She should do that in private. Not on a public fourm with peoples names involved unless the woman gave her permission!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ashley, I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying. I'm sorry!!

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

fullmoon fever

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kinsella:
This statement is the exact reason why I don't care if my foals are registered or not. A nice horse is a nice horse is a nice horse no matter what is or is not burned onto his butt.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
This mare is still one of the best horses I have ever owned. And her guy is out there knocking them over and has NEVER LOST A HACK CLASS, people come to the rail just to watch this guy float around the ring!!! He has earned numerous championships and the owners are THRILLED with him. Their trainer would like more like him, but because the mare has the AQHA blood, we have never rebred her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. This is the reason I quit forking over $$ to a breed registry which did absolutely squat for me. Unfortunately, I now have a few exceptional horses that will be considered in a "sporthorse" registry and I have to back register them in the breed registry to prove they are who I say they are. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

Tiki

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:29 AM

Actually Gwen the ISR/OLNA has 4 mare books. Two of them are for ISR and 2 for OLNA. The ISR mare books are Pre-Mare Book and Mare Book.

The Pre-Mare Book is for mares who have no documentation of pedigree, or have 50% or less of approved sport horse pedigree. ALL of these mares must STILL meet the criteria for sport horse conformation and type, and for movement and overall impression.

The ISR Pre-Mare Book also includes any Warmblood mare - who may even be branded - whose papers have been lost and therefore have no proof of pedigree. This could include ANY mare of almost any breed IF she meets the criteria for sport horse type. They DO NOT take them just because they have a uterus.

The ISR Mare Book takes mares with proof of pedigree and with either 75% or less of approved sport horse pedigree, or scores insufficient for Main Mare Book. It is also for mares WITH proper pedigree who score from 90 - 93 points on inspection.

The OLNA Main Mare Book requires mares to have proof of pedigree and MORE THAN 75% approved sport horse pedigree, PLUS they must score at least 94 points on inspection with no score less than 5 and be of sport horse type, conformation and movement.

The OLNA Premium Mare Book requires proof of pedigree, more than 75% approved sport horse pedigree and a score of 105 or more with no score less than 6.

I believe this is similar to the GOV in the level of the books, but I also believe the GOV calls ALL approved mares Oldenburg, but Book I or Book II, etc. while the ISR/OLNA NEVER calls the Pre-Mare or Mare Book mares Oldenburgs - they are ISR mares.

ISR Pre-Mare Book and Mare Book mares can qualify for a Premium Award Plaque if they score 105 or more, but they can NEVER be called Oldenburg mares. There is a big difference in getting a Premium Award and making Premium Mare Book.

Hope that helps clarify the mare book classifications.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:52 AM

Please do not think that we do not hate the chaos over there but we German breeders would like to see the brand back in the hands it belongs to since centuries not since just a decade. That is the main problem and WE (here in Germany) cannot accept and understand why there must be a second Oldenburg Registry if there is the REAL one. Why don't people in your country understand that WE over here will never consider an ISR/Oldenburg NA a real Oldenburg horse since it has nothing to do with the GOV, which in fact is the true and only Oldenburg Verband, so only an Oldenburg horse, branded and registered with the GOV can be a true Oldenburg and the ISR is taking that privilege away from the Oldenburg breeders that breed Oldenburg horses under the rules of the GOV in America, but are not able to get the brand because it is in the hands of others. I would hate that other registry if I were in the USA and would breed Oldenburgs with GOV and could not get the brand because another registry has trademarked it to pretend to be the Oldenburg Registry. I am German and I am a member of the Oldenburg Verband so I can say that with the deepest of my heart! You might hate me for that but that is the truth and all Oldenburg breeders that breed with GOV will know the feeling! This is a kick in our face and how could we be able to love who is doing this to us??? It's a joke to believe that its an Oldenburg horse because there is the Oldenburg brand on the butt - because the brand is not in the hands of the owners. It is about the same if Little Joe of Bonanza got their brands into the hands of let's say Shilo Ranch and the Shilo Ranch is now branding their horses with the Bonanza brand, sorry but that doesn't make them Bonanza horses. They are still Shilo horses with the Bonanza brand.

I know that will make some people jump to the ceiling, but before you start killing me, then please do understand that this does NOT mean that there are not nice and wonderful horses bred, but they are in no way Oldenburg horses.

And there is something that you might not know: The Oldenburg Verband did only establish the papers of the horses branded and registered until 1993 after that the ISR/Old NA did it, since the Oldenburg Verband had already refrained from doing so. So now think about that again... In fact I know a lot behind the scenes that you all do not know and why the brand got in the hands of the ISR and why the Oldenburg Verband had waited so long (too long) and has given the ISR time enough to establish a NEW brand as that was what they pretended to want to do. The Oldenburg Verband was asked to wait until they had created a new brand, but they then preferred to trademark the one of the Oldenburg Verband for some reason, but these are not things for an open forum. I know why and what was going on, so please don't take me as an idiot.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

phone sneakers

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:

Appendix is Quarter Horse is horse who has one parent who is a registered QH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you forgot to add that the other parent must be a tb. you cannot cross a qh and an oldenburg and get an appendix qh. the aqha wouldn't want to muddy their genetic pool like that.

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:28 AM

Gwen,

You make this claim about what the brand means (and I understand what you're referring to because when we first heard the GOV tell this sad tale of the “evil ISR /Old NA stealing the GOV’s brand because of the “biased American court” system we bought the story hook-line-and sinker. I even earned the lasting hatred of some American Oldenburg breeders because I believed what GOV groupies and GOV representatives had told me about the brand issue and I then asked publicly why American Oldenburg breeders felt justified keeping the brand.

Well, fast forward a few years, I now understand why Mr. Brysch’s organization here has the right to use the brand. The GOV signed two agreements giving him that right! And then the GOV decided to renege on the agreements.

I’ve read the Court decisions, I’ve watched videos of the principles involved, I’ve learned about the GOV registry personal and what they’ve done to our market place. Like you, I’m aware of behind-the-scenes shenanigans. The GOV is famous for behind-the-scenes shenanigans. I would not brag about that... that kind of conduct has proven toxic to American breeders and our market place.

You have said in the past that the GOV didn’t monitor what the ISR/ Old NA was doing and so they were shocked about the Quarter Horse situation. I have some simple questions:

1. IF the GOV cared so much about this brand that they’ve been using on Oldenburg Sporthorses since the mid 1960s why did they legally allow Mr. Brysch’s organization to use it in the first place?
2. Why didn’t the GOV monitor closely how it was being used in this country. Why did the GOV wait almost a decade to check up on how the brand was being used and on what was being done in the GOV’s name?
3. When the split came why didn’t the GOV side with Mr. Brysch? Dr Ramsauer put the QH blood in the GOV’s registry not Mr. Brysch, yet the GOV sided with Dr. Ramsauer (they fired Ramsauer after the litigation over the brand).
4. The brand is a trademark signifying a horse’s inclusion in a breeding fraternity. Breeding animals produce more breeding animals.. over generations the numbers grow… can the GOV count? The problems they created in our market place from 1988 through 1997 have only multiplied.
5. When is the GOV going to apologize to American Breeders?

AS for this stuff about the GOV’s rules… let’s talk about their rule which says they can change their rules after the fact. That’s a great rule! Gives me a lot of confidence in the GOV knowing that they can change their minds anytime they feel like it and disavow their brand on a horse and their Certificate of Registration.

I really don’t care how the GOV settles this mess, but they have a long way to go to make up to all American Oldenburg breeders for the years of confusion they’ve caused. Our court, in July of 2000 said that the GOV had caused confusion for American breeders, the GOV should be working their butts off to correct this confusion... but they don’t… instead the GOV representatives spread gossip and misinformation. So, I ask, when is the GOV going to apologize to American Breeders?

And Phone sneakers,

Of course you are right.. and you could not breed a QH to a giraffe or a snow bunny and get an Appendix Quarter Horse. I just didn’t want to drag the discussion off further in that direction… which is why I posted the link to the AQHA website for accurate information about their rules. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 02:40 PM.]

WIndward_1998

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I do agree though that it is terribly confusing to novice breeders to have two separate organizations operating in the U.S. that use the Oldenburg name - it would be so much simpler if ISR would just stick to the ISR name for its horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The real problem is with the GOV that wanted to stick it to the Americans again. I have a wonderful mare that is OLDENBURG NA approved and was rated premium as a foal. She is out of a great Oldenburg stallion that was German Oldenburg approved. All of this took place before GOV lost in their attempt to control the American market place for Oldenburg Stallions. The courts ruled and GOV lost. Suck it up!!!!!!!! I get tired of the GOV and their backers crying about a battle that they rightly lost.

Two minutes to Glory, hoping the judge isn't blind.

Tiki

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:36 AM

Aw geez Gwen. If somebody here buys a 'real' Oldenburg filly at an auction or a farm in Oldenburg, Germany, and someone else buys a 'real' Oldenburg colt at a farm or an auction in Oldenburg, Germany and imports them, raises them, and brings them to the ISR/OLNA inspection and/or stallion test and they are approved ISR/OLNA they're not 'real' Oldenburgs anymore, nor their offspring?? If they import the same foals and have them inspected by the American Hanoverian Society do they suddenly become American Hanoverians??? Well, their offspring will be - and if presented and approved for breeding by RPSI, their offspring WILL be registered RPSI - and they're an all German registry - they have no representative group here. C'mon, they're just registries.

And why the harangue specifically about Oldenburgs?? What about American Holsteiner, American Hanoverian, American Dutch, American Trakehner registries? They all did the same thing and opened American offices which are now much more loosely affiliated with the European offices. Many of the bloodlines overlap sooooooo much anyway that they are now only minimally differentiated by type - and sometimes that is hard to figure out just by looking at them. Many Oldenburgs moved to the Hannover region of Germany. Their offspring are now Hanoverian, but they are still Oldenburgs even though they live in Hannover. If their Hanoverian offspring move back to Oldenburg, they are still Hanoverian, but now the 2nd generation offspring are again Oldenburgs, so your horses are all mixed up too.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

Oakstable

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:39 AM

Tranquility Farm helped to clear some of the smoke by explaining the four books in the O NA registry. It is very important to know that horses in those two ISR books are not called Oldenburgs, they are ISR. I know, I had one sired by Walk on Top out of a Pre-mare book, (who I quit using as I upgraded my breeding stock.) This registry is more than clear in disclosing how the horses are registered.

However, if you take a mare to OV, and she is accepted in the PreMare Book. What is she called? At the recent inspection in Ramona, there was a mare presented by the name of Blue Eyed Fancy Girl with unknown parents. She was stalled across from us. I didn't hear how she was graded, but if she was accepted, it would be Premare Book. She was a QH type, not bull dog type, but not appendix either. So these mares will be bred to Oldenburg stallions? What kind of papers does a foal get out of this kind of mare sired by a nice Oldenburg stallion. Certificate of Pedigree? Granted, if the mother is not Main Mare Book, the foal is not eligible for a Premium award, and it can be a lovely foal. I've seen them at the inspections.

I think the real issue here is the emotion about the historic brand. The registeries have a great deal in common in the use of various books. I for one would have no problem with the Oldenburg NA further revising their logo so that the OV can use the O with the crown. But then I am not invested in either registry like many farms in this country are. Maybe I have a voice of common sense since I am not invested.

Oldenburg NA is very well established. It makes perfect sense in a country this huge because of multiple inspection locations. It is a partner in the 100-day testing in this country. It is not going away. They have an excellent stallion directory with more information about the stallions and offspring than any other registry, IMHO.

Is it time to move on yet?

Sally
www.oakhollowstable.com (http://www.oakhollowstable.com)

Equine Reproduction

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:40 AM

What is really and truly tragic about this whole mess is that it has NOT benefitted anyone - American or German and has actually done much damage to the Oldenburg horse's reputation. It has created polarization of good people and good breeders and has been exacerbated by the "better than thou" mentality that some of you choose to tout. As has been pointed out, many of the breeders choose to work with both registeries, many work with only one. However, the end result is the same. We breed Oldenburg horses that are of good quality, regardless of what registry is approving them. Period. If everyone steps back and takes a look at this whole mess objectively, there is one and only one man to blame for this mess...Roland Ramsauer. I find it sad that anyone allows him to have the impact and hold the power that he does. He's probably out there chuckling away at the real mess he managed to create.

Move on people! There are better and more important things to discuss.

Kathy St.Martin
Mannuscript Farm
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
http://www.mannuscriptfarm.com

ise@ssl

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:45 AM

Well here's our challenge as breeders....Let's get a few Oldenburg NA horses competing Internationally and then we will see if they are shunned as being "counterfeit" - even though their pedigree might match or surpass an Oldenburg in Europe!!

Come on folks - the proof is in the performance. If an OLDNA horse wins a Gold Medal at the Olympics - can we expect the Germans will stand up and say - this is an imposter??? Something tells me they will step up and say - but it has Oldenburg bloodlines.

Look at Rusty - HE WAS BRED IN LATVIA!! He's one of the top horses being ridden for GERMANY - and they are always quick to point out.......but he has Hanoverian breeding!!! I find this entire argument to be ludicrous.

My Welsh ponies aren't registered in Wales. They are registered here in North America. Does that make them any less Welsh ponies?? And Welsh ponies are pure-breds.........WARMBLOODS ARE MUTTS!!!

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:48 AM

I agree Ilona... but I 'd still like to see American Oldenburg breeders uinted under one registry working towards a single goal.

Btw, about Dr. Ramsauer, actually, we did speak with him a few months back…He is bright, articulate and fully engaged… (by the various descriptions we’ve heard about him we expected a drooling drunken boob). He is not any of those things… not remotely. Now there’s a man with a story worth listening to.

Layne Farm

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:56 AM

Thank you TallOAKShttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

flshgordon

Sep. 29, 2003, 10:57 AM

Aurum-you said "In this time the ISR did trademark the Oldenburg brand for their use which is the most unethical thing I can imagine and which very much hurts us German Oldenburg breeders."

I fail to see in this instance HOW IN THE WORLD this hurts the German Oldenburg breeders?? These horses (before the split) WERE being inspected under direction of the German Verband. Why should American breeders be punished because one or more of the German Verband's people decided to do something that caused dissent in the ranks? Personally I would think German Oldenburg breeders would be shouting a big "Hoorah" that they put us in this mess by forcing the creation of a second registry and now, when they don't like either one of them, they can say it is all the Americans' fault because we don't follow their rules. As a side note.....I DO NOT agree with them copywriting the brand, BUT I can see exactly why they did it. The horses already entered into their books earned that brand whether you like it or not, so taking it away from them years after they had been entered because of a disagreement with one person is also the wrong thing to do. I don't know if there is a good solution in there anywhere but I can sure see their reasoning.

"The Oldenburg Verband is not here to please the American wishes to influence QH or other American breeds, the Oldenburg Verband is here to have breeders follow their rules to breed fine and TRUE Oldenburg horses if here in Europe or over the pond in the USA and not some crosses that now are stamped Oldenburg just because some people did enter them into the Oldenburg books against the rules of the Oldenburg Verband"

Once again, and I am really trying to see your side of it without my feathers being ruffled but....where do you get the idea that American QH breeders want the German Oldenberger breed to influence or better their breed?? That is one of the most far fetched things I have heard yet. I'm not going to really harp on that but I think for sure this is grasping at straws and making an issue of something that has never been an issue before. If there are any QH sporthorse breeders here I bet they can help me out here. I know several QH breeders in my area though and I am pretty sure that is not something any of them would ever be interested in. As far as influencing other American breeds, I think TB would be the main one you are thinking of, but there again....no one in the jockey club is looking for any warmblood breed to better their breed, in fact, haven't Europeans in the past looked to the TB to lighten up their horses?

I know that you are a nice person, you have beautiful horses and I am sure on most days you are a fine person to deal with just like Rebecca says, but honestly you really need to stop insulting American breeders the way you are and saying "it's OURS OURS OURS and we're the only ones who know how to do it right". I think that there aren't NEARLY as many people as we think that are confused about all these registries....I certainly haven't been doing the warmblood thing as long as a lot of you, but it hasn't been that hard to figure most of it out. So maybe people are making the decision which registry is best for them. Sure it would be great all the way around if they could find common ground again but if they don't, it doesn't mean it's hurting the German market any.

"Why don't people in your country understand that WE over here will never consider an ISR/Oldenburg NA a real Oldenburg horse since it has nothing to do with the GOV" ....it may not now but it sure as heck did at one point in time. I don't claim to know what exactly it is that you are so insistent that German Oldenburgers have that Old NA horses don't...in fact, actually I think it would be great if you started a new post and gave us a list of what makes a horse an Oldenburg if as you said, Germany WOULD recognize a US bred horse as a German Oldenburger if someone from there could have a hand in the process. What would be different the second time they tried this from the first? I for one think I could learn a lot more about your breed and ours by knowing what are the exact differences that make these two so significantly different registries.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure no one thinks you're an idiot, nor has anyone insinuated that, but I'm not sure that works both ways. I for one would like a little more info about what it is you're after. The German Verband has the GOV registry in America now correct...and they are the same ones who allowed the aforementioned QH into their main books, so why doesn't it get you steamed that the GOV who claims to be the one and only non-copycat registry here is the one who allowed the offending horse in?? Again, I am curious if you support neither of the registries, a new one, merging the two, etc etc.

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:02 AM

Cartier/Elaine,

you are not right there. NOBODY other than the Oldenburg Verband has the right (the ethical right) to own the brand of the Oldenburg horse! No matter what any court says. And you do absolutely NOT know WHAT is the truth of the whole history and how and why the brand was trademarked. Once you hated the ISR/Old NA and defended vehemently the GOV and now I see you have changed sides. But in fact you do NOT know the truth, nor does Ilona or Kathy. It is a sad truth and I can tell you that you do not know it at all. The court does not interest me. Courts do rarely come to a real justice, they rather speak a judement....

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

WIndward_1998

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>you are not right there. NOBODY other than the Oldenburg Verband has the right (the ethical right) to own the brand of the Oldenburg horse! No matter what any court says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had 3 Oldenburg NAs 1, presplit and 2 post. I am going to breed my mare again and I will present the foal to the OLDENBURG NA for inspection. Each time I pay a fee to the ISR/Oldenburg NA I think of what might have been if the Germans truely had the breed in mind and not their pocket books. The real purpose of the split was to prevent American Stallions from being approved. Also if the American courts are so wrong why does the whole world try to get the case heard hear. And before you start with the thoughts about the ugly Americans. I am a pure blood german. So quit whining and get on with your life.

Two minutes to Glory, hoping the judge isn't blind.

Layne Farm

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> aurum <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> The court does not interest me. Courts do rarely come to a real justice, they rather speak a judement....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
lmao the court dose not intrest you beacuse they sided against youhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The court system in AMERICA is a good system that is why we have it and we are freehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dont think you should be realy fighting with the american breaders here. It will cause nothing but non sence.

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

poltroon

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ahf:
I'm not going to wade into the politics of this discussion, but I did want to address one point. I cannot even CONCEIVE of the decision on whether or not your mare and/or foal is eligible to be presented - being left up to the site inspection hosts. The hosts are just that...hosts. They are kind enough to donate their facility, and put countless hours into making the stabling/grounds presentable and comfortable for their guests. No one who offers to do this should be asked to perform in any kind of official capacity for the registry. I am amazed at the idea. One of the sites for my registry (which is neither of the ones mentioned above) is owned by folks that are not even residents here in the US. It is their farm staff who pulls everything together. As a member, I do not expect, not do I WANT someone who is not employed and intimately familiar with the rules of the registry to determine the eligibility of my mare/foal. That's what the office is for.

Though I know a lot of registries try to be inclusive, situations like the one described above could be avoided altogether by having the papers presented to the office ahead of time, with no last minute entries accepted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never been to an inspection. I am a veteran competitor in several disciplines who now owns a lovely mare.

Regardless of what is traditional or who's duty is what, I cannot understand why, if a horse can be rejected for *paperwork reasons alone* why that paperwork is not submitted in advance to whatever party is responsible for approving it.

Why waste everyone's time - the inspector's, the breeders, and even the facility's time - with a horse that will not be accepted no matter what it does?

If I enter a dressage show, or an event, I stipulate my qualifications (if any are required) and the show secretary at that point accepts them and gives me entry. Even if the person who needs to do this is based in Europe, with fax machines and international delivery, there is no reason this work cannot be done in advance.

If the paperwork is insufficient or indicates that the horse is not eligible, the owner should be informed in time to stay at home. This is just an efficient use of resources and good sense.

If byzantine arrangements for inspections confuse someone like me - an intelligent, curious sort who has a favorite Court of Appeals Justice and who has been known to read court opinions for FUN - how y'all expect an ordinary person with one mare to figure this all out escapes me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:20 AM

Gwen,

I must respectfully tell you that you’re full of cr_p! IF I have changed my point of view it’s because I have learned a great deal about the issue in the time we’ve been involved. My knowledge of the facts has grown, my poit of view has change accordingly. I now see tremendous merit in the ISR/Old NA and what that registry is doing for American Oldenburg breeders.

You know for a fact that I don’t hate you… you know for a fact that in the past I have turned myself inside out to help you. SO please don’t say such things!

And, I don’t hate the GOV breeders, nor to I blindly love the ISR/Old NA. However, I am sick and tired of the fertilizer that gets spread around, that no one can ever back up. IF you have insider knowledge of GOV shenanigans, then by all means have the integrity to tell use what we should know. But, be prepared to back up what you say with some independently verifiable facts. (Which, btw is why I refer to the court documents, they are as close to factual as we’ll ever get.)

And I can understand why you refuse to read the court documents…they contain an objective unemotional account of what actually happened and they paint a very poor picture of the GOV’s conduct in this country. They also expose all of this hyperbole about the brand for the emotional hype that it is.

Gwen, this is ultimately about business, not emotions… and the GOV business plan (from 1988 through 2003 ) has proven disastrous for our market place. German breeders selling Oldenburgs to Americans are the only group who have benefited from this mess.

SportArab

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:23 AM

OK.. as a person who has been familiar with the two organizations for just a few years, I, for one, don't understand why ISR/OldNA needs to have the GOV brand.

I'm not saying ISR/OldNA should go away.. just develop your own brand, guys. You're not connected with the German Oldenburg organization, so why use their brand? My guess is that the reason it was trademarked was so that ISR/OldNA had a bargaining chip - which clearly hasn't gotten anyone anywhere.

While it might be less confusing if there were one registry - that's pretty unlikely. And, certainly, ISR/OldNA using the same brand as GOV only adds to people's confusion.

I am not, by the way, a minion of the GOV. I have GOV registered horses, but that is simply a result of my choosing GOV approved stallions (and now several of my mares are also in the GOV books).

Fiery Run Farm
www.fieryrunfarm.com (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:28 AM

SportArab.

I respect your opinion… I just have to wonder… Do you understand that the ISR/Old NA was the GOV’s agent in this country for a decade… i.e. the ISR/Old NA is a creation of the GOV and operated as the GOV’s only licensed agent in this country for almost a decade? SO it was the GOV that originally said the ISR/Old NA should have the brand in this country ... and they continued to say so for a decade.

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:28 AM

flshgordon, I am tired with all this and feeling misunderstood. What makes you think I said that the QH should be bettered by Oldenburgs? I haven't said that.

I see that you cannot understand why we find it unethical that our brand is no longer in our hands. We have strong believings and the brand is part of our centuries of horse breeding. It belongs to US and not to someone else and because it have been "taken" away from us we are like someone has stolen something very close and valuable for us. I do not understand why that is so difficult to believe.

I also have nothing against the ISR and have not said that they do not breeding fine horses, but they are not Oldenburgs anymore since the split. And when you say we say ours our ours, yes the BRAND is ours and that's what we want back and as long as we do not get it back there is anger and hate and animosity.

As for your other question, I support the GOV, but if that would help any I would support a re-union but see a problem in that because there is that brand issue and that is a huge problem considering that we are proud breeders that do live with their brands and hold them high it is something of our history and wouldn't you hate someone would take off some of the stars on your American flag? For us the brand has much more value in time, ethics, beliefs and history for you it is just a brand on the butt of a horse.

Ilona meant that I said that the ISR took the horses into the books, I haven't said that and I did not mean to say that, it was clear that they had been taken into the GOV books but without their knowledge. The papers have been established after 1993 by the ISR themselves so GOV didn't even see these papers. The horses were entered by a GOV man into the GOV books - I am sorry if I did not make that totally clear, I thought I was clear enough on that. The papers though were established by ISR so the GOV got very late aware what was going on over there. And when they took the brake on it, they lost the brand and everybody thinks that they are the BooBoo men now. I am also very aware that the RR did write that they were entered into the GOV books, I have never meant to state something other, if it came across wrong then I am sorry. It is difficult to express some things in English.

After all I did not write all this to offend anyone or to knock anyones horses down, I only did it to try to make you understand OUR feelings about that matter.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

graystonefarm

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:33 AM

Americans will NEVER understand until they have traveled to Germany and visited with the German breeders and witnessed the pride and joy they have in their horses, homes and Oldenburg heritage.

Here is a photo taken during my first trip. The woman on the far left was crying at one point when someone mentioned the Oldenburg brand hanging on her brick home, fearful of what was going to happen if they were forced to change the brand that has been in her family and on their farms for hundreds of years. THAT was when it truly hit home for me. Oldenburg is not just a name, but it is WHO THEY ARE. This is very personal for them.

http://www.graystonefarm.com/oldenburgtour.htm

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

WIndward_1998

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Gwen, this is ultimately about business, not emotions… and the GOV business plan (from 1988 through 2003 ) has proven disastrous for our market place. German breeders selling Oldenburgs to Americans are the only group who have benefited from this mess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was always the purpose of the GOV trying to get the brand removed from American Stallions. Their only goal is to make it so that if you want an Oldenburg you have to get it from Germany or from a German Stallion. As I stated before this is about profits and nothing else. I like keeping my money at home. They can keep all of their concern for the breed for their press releases.

Two minutes to Glory, hoping the judge isn't blind.

flshgordon

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by aurum:

The Oldenburg Verband is not here to please the American wishes to influence QH or other American breeds<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how it could get much clearer than this, that is EXACTLY what you said back on pg 6. But in fact, we didn't want the Oldenburg here to better our breeds, but instead to breed our own with the help of the German verband. That is where I got it, directly from what you said unless there was something messed up in the translation??

I don't have any problem seeing how you find the brand situation unethical....it stinks, I'll agree!!! I guess I still don't see that this actually hurts German breeders unless these are low quality animals. In fact if they are high quality animals and some who don't know the story behind all this then I would think it would help the Germans seeing all these magnificent "Oldenburg" horses.

I don't wish to fight, I just can't stand to sit by and be hit with under the table insults....i.e. sure we have nice horses but those "nice horses" are hurting the German Verband. See what I mean?

ise@ssl

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:45 AM

Gwen I sense your strong nationalism but those of us who invested in our NORTH AMERICAN bred horses have nationalism here.

As a business person and U.S. Breeder, I want to know that ALL the money generated by registration of foals, mares, stallions, etc. on this continent goes into a bank HERE. I want to know that all the expenses paid out of the registry I belong to are done so by check from that same account. I want to know the registry is a legal 50l(c)(3) not for profit corporation as approved by the U.S. INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE. I want to know a Certified Public Accountant handles the books and files the tax returns - so that down the road I as a member and investor in this registry and my horses papered by this registry I don't find out there are any outstanding tax liabilities. I want the money in this registry to go toward programs and awards to go to the US & CANADIAN BRED HORSES registered by this registry. I want standards equal or perhaps even higher than those set by European registries but I want a registry that clearly undestands the UNITED STATES & CANADIAN horse industry and sporthorse industry is not the same as Europe. I want to build my own mare base in this country and I want high quality stallions in this country approved for breeding. I want to be able to use bloodlines from Europe if I want to but not be forced to do so. And I want every single PENNY of money that's available for marketing directed toward selling horses BRED HERE!! I'm not an importer - I'm a domestic breeder. The whole point of German or Dutch or whatever registries beginning here was for the breeders in the US & Canada to be able to produce horses of those breeds HERE. Yes we had to build from imported breeding stock and that infusion of bloodlines will continue to occur - but I cannot imagine this entire warmlbood sporthorse industry didn't see that eventually the breeders here would need stock and expertise from Europe less and less as time went on. We aren't idiots here - we've breed world class horses of other breeders for centuries now.

I have to laud Heike - she must have some quarterly tickler on her calendar to get on the COTH BB and mix it up about these two registries. What a mess this always ends up being. I have to wonder if it wasn't because the ISR/OLDNA and several large member breeders stepped up to the plate with $20,000 in prize money for the North American Bred Young Horse Futurities at DAD - this was, by the way, the LARGEST PRIZE MONEY EVER FOR A BREED DIVISION AT THAT SHOW!!

I'm thrilled - OUR MONEY BEING AWARDED TO THE OWNERS AND BREEDERS OF NORTH AMERICAN BRED HORSES. That's our Nationalism and what we really need to have in our breeding programs to set the goal of breeding world class horses.

I have no doubt this person Heike posted about had the option of leaving that inspection. Her mare did make Premium Mare Book and I congratulate her on that. But she obviously paid the fees and accepted the award. Why she didn't read the contract clause about the foals and the threatened litigation if she took the foal there astounds me. Good gracious - any clause in any contract about being sued for a large some of money should catch anyone's eye.

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:47 AM

Elaine, my post was not only adressed to you, I meant everybody when I was talking about hating me for what I am saying.

I do have first hand knowlege of some things but that is not something for an open forum as it could ruin some person's reputation and that is not what I am up to. The brand is part of OUR centuries of horse breeding history and tradition and I find it very sad that Americans do not understand that and do not push the ISR to give back the brand into the hands it belongs to. As long as that brand is not back in the hands of its true owners, there cannot be a "come together" again.

If they would merge again, then as many GOV members as ISR members should be present at any event for registering horses or foals to avoid such misery happen again.

What if someone took your flag and had it trademarked, how would you look at that? For us the brands of our horses have about the same value as the American Flag or Eagle sign for you. Perhaps that does give you a better understanding why that is so terrible for us to have lost the brand. The ISR remains just that without the GOV, the ISR. They should have done what they promised to the GOV and have created a new brand but they knew that they would not make as much money without the precious Oldenburg sign.

Now everybody can go ahead and throw again stones on me just for saying the very truth, I am off to meet my bed now....Good night... I am out of this fight for some hours.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:55 AM

Gwen,

Thank you and please know I care very deeply for you. I am touched when you and others write about the pride you have in the brand, and you say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>... there is that brand issue and that is a huge problem considering that we are proud breeders that do live with their brands and hold them high it is something of our history and wouldn't you hate someone would take off some of the stars on your American flag? For us the brand has much more value in time, ethics, beliefs and history for you it is just a brand on the butt of a horse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a huge difference here... we would not go to Germany and sign an agreement allowing a German organization to use the American Flag. And, we also would not completely ignore how that organization was using the American flag for almost a decade and then bitch and moan because we didn’t like how it was being used, years after the fact.

Oakstable

Sep. 29, 2003, 11:58 AM

We are talking about registeries here, folks, not horse breeds. I bred an imported Dutch mare to B. Rolando a number of years ago. He was accepted by the Dutch as an outside approved stallion so my two daughters are registered Dutch. Rolando was a full brother to Armstrong, who won the jumping portion of the stallion testing in HOlland. The owners sent Rolando to Oldenburg for stallion approval because they thought the Dutch didn't need two full brothers. So Rolando was Vice Champion of the approval. (I have this is on video). So now one of my Dutch mares is in foal to Routinier since he was approved as an outside stallion this year. The upcoming foal will be registered Dutch. All the European breeding registeries stir bloodlines together except for the Trakehner. That's a breed with strict limitations on outside bloodlines. Okay, so I have two imported Trakehner mares who are accepted for breeding to appproved Dutch mares. Hopefully, one of them is in foal to Iroko. (I'll find out tomorrow. And this foal will be registered Dutch as there is no way it could be registered a Trakehner.

I have a lovely premium filly by Coromino, whose bloodlines are obviously Holsteiner, but he is approved by the OV and not approved by the AHHA. There is a big difference between a breed of horse and a sporthorse, which can fall into any one of many registeries.

The Oldenburg was its own type a long time ago, but it changed when the need changed for a sporthorse, not a work horse. Oldenburg has a rich history, and a lot of passion goes along with this, but you can no longer tell the difference between the European sport models (except for Trakehner).

I think people confuse their love for their horses into a love for their registry. Come on, folks. Lighten up and let's move on.

SportArab

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:14 PM

Cartier,
I understand that ISR/OldNA WAS at one time the GOV reprentative in the US... but it isn't now - no matter what the reason may be.

So, why keep the brand? There is no longer any affiliation and MOST people see the O and the Crown and think GOV.

It's perfectly fine, in my mind, for ISR/OldNA to keep running - the issue is the GOV brand. Why, I ask again, can't ISR/OldNA come up with their own North American Oldenburg brand and have done with it?

The current path seems guaranteed to produce confusion, especially with new breeders.

Fiery Run Farm
www.fieryrunfarm.com (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:27 PM

SportArab,
Maybe I can answer your question this way… We have horses with the O and Crown brand put there by Dr. Ramsauer, Mr. Brysch and Dr. Kuhl (sp?)… who each had legal authority to use the brand. Which of my horses would you like me to take the brand off of? And how exactly should I go about doing that?

We’re speaking here of a mark permanently seared into a horses flesh. When the GOV authorized the ISR/Old NA to use the brand they fully understood what branding an animal means. It has significance for the life of the animal… a span of 20 years or more. The brand is a permanent symbol for all the world to see linking an animal with a given breeding fraternity. (btw, no one is stopping the GOV from using the brand in Germany, and they freely chose to allow it to be used here).

IF my husband were here he would ask, “How can you be certain that the GOV won’t change their mind yet again and decide that their current inspectors are bad guys and disavow what is being done now?”

I don’t entirely buy the emotional argument that the brand is lost to German breeders… heck they can still brand their horses… what is at issue here is who can brand in the US. Do you realize that Karsten Kuhl (sp?) was an employee of the GOV and a classmate of Vollstedt’s… why is he so unacceptable to brand, but Mr. Rhinnow is somehow acceptable.

American Oldenburg breeders are being sucked into an emotion laden argument which is largely irrelevant to the real issues…

btw, how is your Amiral colt doing?

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
O>K> - as soon as I finish my barn work I'm heading to Clemon's market for a BOX of Mocha filled RING DINGS!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously? Such a thing exists? Or is this wishful thinking on your part? Oh please tell me they exist!

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:32 PM

Sport Arab, in case you aren't familiar with the brands used by the ISR/OLDNA, prior to 1996 or so, not really sure of the year, the brand used was the O and the Crown. I know in 1997 it is the O and the Crown with a N on the left of the crown and an A on the right of the crown. This brand has been used by a corporation and they shouldn't have to change it just because someone cries foul.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

graystonefarm

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:33 PM

For you coffee lovers out there, have you ever tried chocolate covered mocha beans? They are to die for!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:35 PM

Oakstable

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Okay, so I have two imported Trakehner mares who are accepted for breeding to appproved Dutch mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, Oakstable, who are you trying to fool!!?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 12:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> posted Sep. 29, 2003 04:35 PM
Oakstable

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so I have two imported Trakehner mares who are accepted for breeding to appproved Dutch mares.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, Oakstable, who are you trying to fool!!??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bernie,
I missed that… it’s time for a little levity… unless Oakstable has made some enormous scientific breakthrough, something akin finding the equine version of those Sea Cucumbers who are sequential hermaphrodites. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oakstable

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:15 PM

Ooops, what a typo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif I didn't see that. Thanks.

If branding becomes illegal here like it is in Holland, will this issue go away? The brand is a copyrighted logo, a corporate identity, like the Dutch lion or the Trakehner antlers. Personally, I'd give it back if that alone would let the air of the tires. Oldenburg NA doesn't need the crown. This registry is established and has a lot of bloodlines in its registery, including Hanoverians and Trakehners, and many of the stallions are in three registeries now which has to be hard financially on the owners. It is more like a North American Sporthorse Registry, i.e. stallions standing in the USA or Canada.

No one would have to have plastic surgery to remove a brand from the horse, but what about a beautifully designed logo for the 21st century of North American Sporthorse breeding. Maybe it is time for an evolutionary step. And let's not brand anymore, they fade anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:50 PM

Oakstable, I still think branding is important even if just for the fact that if a horse was stolen, it might NOT end up in an Alpo can.

My dog Sens has his tatoo for similiar reasons.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

SportArab

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:55 PM

Cartier,
I'm not suggesting anyone remove brands.. I'm suggesting that the ISR/OldNA stop using the brand and get another for future use. Not sure how you read this as need for brand removal.

To tell you the truth, however, I'm perfectly happy to have my guys microchipped rather than branded... contrary to most, I don't think a brand improves a horse's appearance.

Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

GW Ranch

Sep. 29, 2003, 01:57 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TALLOAKS... one HICK-Up

You state I know in 1997 it is the O and the Crown with a N on the left of the crown and an A on the right of the crown. This brand has been used by a corporation and they shouldn't have to change it just because someone cries foul.

That is all fine and dandy.. Why then trademarked teh ISR the O with the crown on it WITHOUT the NA????

Heike

Sincerely
Heike Albert
http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch

ise@ssl

Sep. 29, 2003, 02:06 PM

I rest my case that this was NOT about the mare owner with the Budweiser foal! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 02:18 PM

Heike,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> That is all fine and dandy.. Why then trademarked teh ISR the O with the crown on it WITHOUT the NA???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is NO trademarked brand with the ISR and an O and a Crown, with or without a NA. What are you talking about??? The ISR brand is entirely different.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Cartier

Sep. 29, 2003, 02:22 PM

Actually SportArab,

I was trying to be nice… but I will answer your questions:

Why keep the brand?:

The ISR/Old NA should continue to use the brand in this country because they are the original (and longest running) Oldenburg Registry in this country. The GOV put the brand in the ISR/Old NA’s hands. For almost a decade the GOV considered the ISR/Old NA well qualified to inspect and brand.

Mr. Brysch has busted his ass for almost 20 years to support and nurture Sporthorse breeding in this country. And, for the past 15 years he’s been out there encouraging the breeding of Oldenburgs in this country. The fact that you are even aware of Oldenburgs at all is largely due to the work Mr. Brysch and the ISR/ Old NA have done in this country. At the very least, it is extremely ungrateful to ignore what Mr Brysch and the ISR/Old NA have done for American breeders. The ISR/Old NA works for American breeders. In sharp contrast, the GOV works to undermine the value of what American Oldenburg breeders are producing. Read again and again on this forum how GOV spokespeople lead people on buying trips to Europe, where the real “quality” Oldenburgs are. Read what Gwen writes about what we breed. Acccording to Gwen, regardless of the pedigree, what we breed aren’t real Oldenburgs to her. Wake up and smell the coffee honey. The GOV is really only interested in selling their German bred Oldenburgs in our market place. The ISR/Old NA has worked to build something worthwhile for American breeders; the GOV has (by our court’s description) caused confusion in our market place and undermined the value of what we breed domestically.

It is outrageous that the GOV decided to pull the rug out from under the ISR/Old NA when it was clear that doing so would cause confusion in this market place for generations. The GOV has a history of changing its mind. For example: they hire and back Dr. Ramsauer for years and years...then he becomes "the bad guy" and he's out. They hire and back Dr. Karsten Kuhl (sp?), then he’s out. Why should American breeders be constantly at the whim of a small group of individuals in Germany who fight among themselves, change their minds continually (with total disregard for the chaos they cause American Oldenburg breeders). The GOV has demonstrated that they care nothing for our market place or the value of what we produce?

IF Coke or Mc Donald’s signed a deal to sell their products in Germany, they would stand by the deal… the GOV should do the honorable thing here and stand by the deal[s] they signed.
And this is not remotely like the American flag baloney because we Americans would never sign a deal licensing a German entity to use our American flag for commercial purposes.

As others have mentioned, if the GOV wants to approve the inspectors that come here, that would be easy enough to arrange, but they need to immediately stop running down Mr. Brysch and other ISR/Old NA personal. It‘s destructive and petty. And, if the GOV wants a presence here so they can continue to market the German bred horses to us here in the US…that’s fine too.

But the GOV needs to cut the crappola about them having taken some “high ground” in all of this… Bluntly, they haven’t.

ANd of course the O and Crown brand signifies Oldenburg horses… but that was true in 1988 when the GOV signed the first deal to create the ISR/Old NA and it was true in 1993 when the GOV resigned the deal.

And, btw, the ISR/Old NA is a German organization (though it has a business office here, files with our IRS and does the most for American Oldenburg breeders), it is run by Germans. Mr. Ekkehard Brysch and Karsten Kuhl are both German, they both reside in Germany and they are every bit as experienced and qualified as Vollstedt or Rhinnow to inspect Oldenburg horses. And they are every bit as attached to the O and Crown brand as Gwen or any German.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 29, 2003 at 08:08 PM.]

Oakleigh

Sep. 29, 2003, 02:27 PM

I still strongly believe this whole discussion is all about business.

Think of Coke vs Pepsi, McDonalds vs BurgerKing, Sears vs JC Penney, Disney World vs Sea World. Each pair offers similar products. Customers usually choose between them based on quality of service and other benefits.

There are enough customers and potential customers to keep both of them financially viable for years. There is no reason why they (ONA and GOV) can't co-exist. This country is plenty big for both of them!

I can respect the passion that the ONA and GOV members exhibit. I can respect the passion that Gwen has. I hope we can all respect eachother, even if we agree to disagree...

I'd love to see this much passion transferred to other things like our economy and elections! Or, to make it horsy: transferring this passion toward developing a young horse training program in the US! LOL

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

Spring

Sep. 29, 2003, 02:42 PM

Well said Cartier, thank you for that explanation. We have to remember that the major interest the Germans and, therefore the verband, have in any of this is in maintaining a constant source of buyers for German horses.

The disruption this split caused for people like me [ a small breeder] was enormous. I was told I had to make a choice and pay a small fee to have my horses re-inspected by Dr Ramseur if I decided to go with the GOV. Even if the small fee were not an issue the matter of fairness bothered me as did the stress on my mares to have to go through a trip and an overnight in a strange place. The stress of the inspection did cause my older mare to lose her foal in one case and I couldn't justify risking her pregnancy again just to stisfy some petty fight that was going on. I felt[in error] that it would surely be rectified before my mare had another foal to be approved. When it wasn't I just stayed with the group I knew and as time went on and I saw and read all of the negative comments made by the GOV supporters,I was happy that I had made that choice. I just decided I was breeding for the Sporthorse riding market and the politics of Registries would be secondary to my buyers. So far I have been right! I still hope that the rift will one day be closed but I will probably be retired from breeding by then.

FionaJ

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:04 PM

I, too, think this was just to stir things up because if the contract that Heike writes is so stringent, then I had several thoughts:

1. Why is it not the breeder's fault? After all she clearly filled out the paperwork and tried to get her foal approved ISR which should have resulted in her being sued if the reports of the contract are correct.

2. Why is it a big deal anyhow and wouldn't Heike be relieved that the ISR/OLD not inspect the foal because obviously this is not something she would want as it would result in her having to follow through with her threat to sue?

3. Why is it such a big deal to just re-present the foal as a yearling next year--I mean really, why the big deal? What would have happened had the foal been hurt or something?

4. Since when it it the ISR/OLD's fault that the breeder cannot follow Heike's contract? Bottom line, it is not, but an attempt to make it look like it is their fault at being misleading. I don't know the client and I don't know the contract; however, if I fill out a form that is titled at the top in large bold letters ISR/Oldenburg North America after having signed a contract in which I have been told I will be sued if I present my foal to the wrong registry, you bet I am going to go and check to make sure I am not screwing that up. The breeder here is not a victim, and I'm sorry, but Heike you seem to just be stirring up trouble.

Equine Reproduction

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
Oakstable

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Okay, so I have two imported Trakehner mares who are accepted for breeding to appproved Dutch mares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, Oakstable, who are you trying to fool!!?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://www.talloaksfarm.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrmph!! You guys OBVIOUSLY haven't been reading the news. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So, Oakstable??? When are your clones due? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Seminars
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

talloaks

Sep. 29, 2003, 03:29 PM

Kathy!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Hrmph!! You guys OBVIOUSLY haven't been reading the news. So, Oakstable??? When are your clones due? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YOU ARE SOOOO FUNNY!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

poltroon

Sep. 29, 2003, 04:44 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stirring the pot.

At the end of the day, as far as I can tell all the warmbloods are more alike than different. If you have to look at the brand to know which one it is, then there is no difference in type.

So why bother with having a registry with a German (or European) name? Why can't we build an American warmblood registry that has strong and valuable standards, give it a catchy name, and be done with it all? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Suggestions: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Platinumbred
Diamondbred
Ritzybred
The Washington Horse

Or, if you want the German cachet:
Wunderpony
UberHorse

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Mariesonny

Sep. 29, 2003, 05:49 PM

Oh come on Sportarab! Can't you see that the 'brand' is a bargaining chip. It is the one thing that will someday (hopefully) bring these two organizations back together.

Very good explaination Cartier!

(From the owner of a GOV Oldenburg branded mare who's baby is only allowed to have the ISR brand because she is not allowed into the ISR/Old NA main mare book due to her 1/4 Percheron heritage. sigh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

www.angelfire.com/mac/evergreenfarm (http://www.angelfire.com/mac/evergreenfarm)

Twinkletozzz

Sep. 29, 2003, 06:34 PM

GW - the answer to your question is that there is too much similarity between the trademark with the NA and the trademark without the NA. In the minds of the casual observers, they might easily mistake the one for the other. To be redundant, the NA added does not distinguish the mark sufficiently from the other Crown and O without the NA. This is basic trademark law in this country, like or not. The Patent & Trademark Office in Washington makes these decisions.

Daedalus, Able George, Flirting Cove http://community.webshots.com/user/twinkletozzz

Beezer

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
So, why keep the brand? There is no longer any affiliation and MOST people see the O and the Crown and think GOV.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, MOST people in this country just want to know what "breed" the horse is; Oldenburg is the answer, even though it's a registry, not a breed. The average dressage/eventing/hunter-jumper enthusiast doesn't know -- and doesn't care -- whether it's a GOV, ISR/OldNA or a Dutch chocolate bar. And if you try to explain, their eyes just glaze over.

Frankly, half the time I don't even bother to explain how our Anglo-Trakehner mare (who went premium pre-split) produced a premium Oldenburg when crossed with an approved Dutch Warmblood! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Face it, folks, the entrenched camps on both sides are the only ones who care about this. Your average rider is just looking for a good horse, and the only thing the Oldenburg Wars do is turn them away from our horses, no matter where they were born. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

aurum

Sep. 29, 2003, 09:35 PM

Cartier/Elaine,

your post tells me that you are totally one sided and you have not understood anything of what I wrote and how we feel about the brand. You also do apparently absolutely not know the base of the split and why the brand was trademarked. It was basically not trademarked to help the American breeders, that much I can tell you for sure.

The final fact still remains that a horse with the O and the Crown has to be branded by the true Oldenburg Verband otherwise it is not a real Oldenburg horse. And I find it very sad that Germans have done the whole thing to Germans. The ISR is not a German organization just because the head director is a German.

It is truly funny why so many of you hang on the O and Crown and the word Oldenburg, when they breed WBs that are born in America and are not inspected by the GOV. I repeat it again, an Oldenburg horse can only be a horse accepted, branded and registered with the Oldenburg Verband under their rules, with their standard and branded with their brand. That's it.

Why do you all need the Oldenburg brand and the naming of the horse Oldenburg, because it is precious and valuable, other than that it could wear any brand and it would be correct to finally do what the director had once promised to the GOV, to create a new brand for your own registry. I insist that they are not Oldenburg horses since they have only one of the things they need to be accepted by the world as Oldenburg. It is like throwing sand in the eyes of breeders and possible buyers. If you think the Oldenburg Verband want to keep the brand because for money business, then why don't you think the opposite for the ISR, do you think they have trademarked the brand to please American breeders? Might be but in fact they did it to keep the business going on and to make money and to not loose money when suddenly the brand that so many Americans want, would miss.

That is my last post on that matter. I have read a lot here and I have understood that a lot of you are only interested what is good for them and do not want to see what is a tradition since centuries! and more for others. The American breeders that are breeding "Oldenburgs" WITH the brand but without the GOV seem not to care or understand that their horses can never be Oldenburgs since they miss one of the two things that are necessary to have one. I think it is the problem that they do not understand that it needs more than the brand to have an Oldenburg horse - it needs the Verband that is behind the brand.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Whisper

Sep. 30, 2003, 01:16 AM

It may be common knowledge that Heike has the requirement that foals from her stallions not be presented to the ISR/NA registry, but her website doesn't seem to say a word about it. It does say that the foals she's offering are registered GOV, but not that they are ineligible for ISR/NA, nor that she plans to sue any customers who disagree with her. I think that in the interests of making things more clear for her clients, avoiding wasting time for everyone, and to avoid the "misleading" issue for her stallions get, that she should mention it prominently in a link from either her home page, or from each of her stallions' pages.

The problem seems to me to be entirely one of miscommunication between Heike and the owner of the mare, and has nothing to do with either registry.

Stay me with coffee, comfort me with chocolate, for I am sick of love.

Massive Impressive

Sep. 30, 2003, 01:37 AM

What a bull, if a horse is good, you use it, you don't sign in for a tree, that is how you mess a horse up.

-------------------
Never take the advice of a horseman personal.
----

Oakleigh

Sep. 30, 2003, 03:22 AM

Whisper,

Go read her breeding contract. THAT's where the information we are discussing is contained. It's not just "common knowledge". You can link to it from her site.

Gwen,

I understand and respect your thoughts and feelings. Of course, none of us simple people on this board can do anything to rectify the situation. What I do find good is that we were able to discuss this with a civil tone, this time. What WOULD be best, would be for the two groups to find some common ground and merge here in the US. They were at one time, and it COULD happen again. I seriously doubt that the dues/fees alone gathered from American GOV members are enough to support their effort here in the US. I think the German members should be concerned that a hefty portion of your membership fees are going to support their branch in the US. Joining forces again with the ISR/ONA would make the financial aspect of maintaining a presence here more feasible. Just a thought...

Gwen, just FYI, I manage details for a different registry's inspection tours (neither of the Oldenburgs). The logistics of arranging the tour would blow your mind. The expense of flying Germans over here, organizing transportation as a series of one way air tickets to circle the US, hotels, meals, rental cars and a small amount of entertainment are absolutely phenomenal. It certainly is NOT a money-making endeavor. It is a service that we provide to the membership. The German GOV members should find out what is being spent for the same effort to service their US members. It's your fees that are paying for this tour. After you find out what this costs, you would probably vote to merge the registries in the US again...It just makes sense to share the cost. We US breeders certainly do appreciate that the Germans are subsidizing this membership benefit and service!

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

Oakleigh

Sep. 30, 2003, 03:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Massive Impressive:
... you don't sign in for a tree, that is how you mess a horse up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get it? Could you explain what this means???

Oakleigh

~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~~~~
Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
Oakleigh Sporthorses (http://hometown.aol.com/psulli1002/page1.html)

aurum

Sep. 30, 2003, 03:49 AM

Oakleigh, I do not deny that it would be good that the two merge, my point was only the taking away of the brand from the original registry, which I find totally unethical and which does still not make a horse an Oldenburg just because of the brand. I would have nothing against them re-uniting again, just the GOV must send minimum one or two members over there and not just wait over here again blind and blue eyed that everything would be done as they want and the rules request. Humans are just that, humans and there are many things involved that might lead someone to do what is not allowed to do according to rules. That has been done in normal lives, in some other Verbands and in high political lives.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Massive Impressive

Sep. 30, 2003, 04:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Massive Impressive:
... you don't sign in for a tree, that is how you mess a horse up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get it? Could you explain what this means???

Oakleigh

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll try, but it'll be hard if you dont understand THAT.

A horse
that looks good
got all the characteristics of A breed
you do not
turn down

I know it happens and bookrules say maybe the parents should be registered I dunno, but if the horse is from completely unknown background, or maybe the parents ARE known but bad and not registered or for whatever reason just not registered/ not able to enter the book, to keep the breed healthy you can't keep breeding with the same blood.

It's a law of nature, eventually you have a beautiful book but the animals are worth not even 5 cents.

And that you are a breeder is no excuse, YOU are the one here that needs to make a change, I wouldn't buy a horse of yours if that's your policy.

Hope you understand it this time,

A rider (I would like you to keep me that way)

-------------------
Never take the advice of a horseman personal.
----

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:08 AM

Mariesonny

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> (From the owner of a GOV Oldenburg branded mare who's baby is only allowed to have the ISR brand because she is not allowed into the ISR/Old NA main mare book due to her 1/4 Percheron heritage. sigh ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mariesonny, does this mean that you have a GOV Oldenburg registered and branded mare with 1/4 Percheron in her pedigree? Please explain.

Thanks a bunch!!!!

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:08 AM

Gwen,

I want to respond to a few points you made in your post above.

I have not said (nor would I ever argue), that the brand litigation was good for American breeders. Quite the contrary, the litigation was a disaster for American Oldenburg breeders! And, FYI, the interests of American Oldenburg breeders were not represented in court. (That is why I have repeatedly asked you to read the court decision.. the facts are rather obvious!)

I am strongly critical of the GOV for creating a situation where Mr. Brysch felt the need to go to court to protect what he’d built here in this country (for a decade). He (and the ISR/Old NA) had a legal agreement to inspect and brand breeding animals. By the time of the spilt, there were thousand of horses and American breeders with both a personal and financial stake in the survival of the Oldenburg Registry North American. After a decade of work, the GOV had a hissy-fit and tried to pull the rug out from under the Oldenburg Registry North American and all American Oldenburg breeders at the time.

Here’s a question that no one ever asks… what the heck did the GOV think breeders in this country would do after they pulled the rug out from under Mr. Brysch’s organization? Back then the GOV tried to start two other registries. Did the GOV expect that breeders then would all just pay again to have everything re-inspected? What about the thousands of horses already inspected and branded by the Oldenburg Registry North Ameirca? Where was any real concern for what the litigation would do to the American breeder or the American market place? The confusion and derision in our market place which exists today was clearly foreseeable and preventable.

If you look at the track record of these organizations in this country, the ISR/Old NA has been steadily pushing the ball forward, each and every year taking steps to build something a little bigger, and a little better for American breeders. The 2003 North American Breeders Futurity Championship at Devon is a recent example. In contrast, the GOV has been pushing “the ball” all over the place, forward, backward, over to Germany, they’ve started different registries, maligned other registry officials, created confusion…created dissension, undermined the value of what we breed here... arguably the GOV has pushed the ball in every direction but forward.

GOV supporters have repeated stated that the GOV is about higher quality and higher standards, yet we now know that such an argument is grossly inaccurate. Both registries can claim some excellent animals (and both may have a few not-so-excellent).

And, many times we’ve heard that the split was about the ISR/Old NA putting Quarter Horse blood the registry, but we now know that it was the GOV (and not the ISR/OLD NA) that put the Quarter Horse blood in the registry, so that isn’t the reason for the split. In fact, we now know that the GOV has put Quarter Horse blood in the registry as recently as August of 2000.

GOV breeders have advanced the argument that their inspectors are better than the Oldenburg Registry North American inspectors... again I say baloney. Vollstedt and Kuhl were class mates… Kuhl worked for the GOV… and the bottom line is that most anyone with some minimum level of intelligence, who has studied structure and movement would be equal to either of these individuals, should they chose to spend a few months boning up on German bloodlines and attend some classes. Inspecting horses for a living isn’t rocket science; it's something many many people could master if they chose to devote the hours. So there is no need to try to elevate one set of inspectors over the other.

AS for this argument that what we breed here can never be an Oldenburg… baloney! OF course we can breed an Oldenburg here. Make no mistake, when the bloodlines are right, when the phenotype it right… it IS an Oldenburg... a “true” Oldenburg! If an Oldenburg breeder in Germany breeds their Zeus mare to a Furioso stallion son, they call the friggin foal an Oldenburg. And, if I breed my Feinbrand filly to DeNiro, I’m calling the friggin thing an Oldenburg too! This brand is just a symbol of a phenotype on the horse representing a breeding fraternity, no more and no less. And the only reason German breeder’s object is that, if I can breed it here, I don’t need to purchase the foal from a German… so you’ve all lost one sale. Get over it!

After reading what you’ve been writing Gwen, I have come to believe what everyone has always said... this is all about money! I think the GOV will advance any argument, however inaccurate, however polarizing or emotional to protect their market share. The GOV breeders in Germany are pissed because we can breed something here and call it an Oldenburg and our doing so marginally impacts their ability to sell us more horses.

It is absolutely true that I once bought the emotion laden story about the brand... I was persuaded by the way you phrased the issue... as though your alleged love of the symbol were somehow relevant to this type of discussion. Well, after hearing this sob story for years, I am now sickened by such an obvious attempt to further confuse and polarize American Oldenburg breeders. The fact that you love the O and Crown symbol is completely irrelevant to ANY discussion of Oldenburg breeding in this country.

I now completely reject the emotional argument that we Americans (and / or the ISR/ Old NA) have taken something which we have no right to. The GOV signed legally binding agreements giving us the right to use the brand on breeding animals. Doing so, in and of itself, means the GOV made a serious permanent commitment to American Oldenburg breeders and the registry they created, i.e.the ISR/Old NA. It is utter BS for the GOV to later say, “Hey, we didn’t bother to monitor how you all were using our “precious” brand for ten years, now we object.”

The ISR/OLD NA hasn’t taken anything from any German. It does not impact you in any way if we are using the O and Crown brand in this county to identify the animals we are breeding. Germans are still free to use the brand in Germany, free to hang the symbol on their fences, embed the symbol in their driveways, brand the symbol on their horse's ass... they can stick the brand anywhere they like. Our using the brand in this country does not directly impact you in any way… except one… it hits you in your pocket book! This is all about money.

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:17 AM

Cartier!!

RIGHT ON!!!!

IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!!

(doesn't the Big Book say that money is the root of all evil??)

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

Spot

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:18 AM

now I am curious - I had one filly by Rio Grande out of my Shirleygirl mare inspected and branded at - I think??? - the ISR/Oldenburg inspection here in Ontario several years back. I *think* it was Dr Ramsauer that did the inspection ???

Here is a picture of her - what registry is she registered with (according to the brand on her)?

"Spot"

Layne Farm

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:21 AM

wow spot i dont know but she is a cutiehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ashley
http://www.yandafarms.com

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:27 AM

Spot,

Your filly is lovely! It's hard to see the brand in the picture... and the exact year is critical to the correct answer because in 1995 Dr. Ramsauer was branding for the Oldenburg Registry North America and in 1996 Dr Ramsauer was branding for Oldenburger of American and/or Oldenburg Studbook North America.

Mariesonny,
Are you the dear lady who saved my life at Deiter's Inspection? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I can't get the link to your farm to work.

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:32 AM

Spot, it looks like Oldenburg NA, with the NA at a distance the whole brand is rather triangular looking, well at first glance.

Cute filly!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

SportArab

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:32 AM

OK Cartier,

To use your analogy.. CocaCola sets up a distributorship in Russia. There is a falling out with the distributor (may be they're unhappy with the product..maybe it's just a personality clash). They terminate the agreement..

In your mind, who in Russia owns the Coca Cola logo: the distributor or Coca Cola???

Also, as per Gwen's comments, please define for me what you think makes an Oldenburg, considering the fact that an Oldenburg can have a Dutch dam and a Hannovarian sire?

I'm really not trying to be obnoxious. I just fail to see the logic in your arguments.

Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryurnfarm.com)

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:34 AM

SportArab,

The Coca Cola analogy is not very good since Coca Cola has been produced and sold in various countries all over the world. It is produced in many countries and sold in those countries, it is not exported from the US to Canada, etc, the Coca Cola sold in Canada would be made in Canada.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

SportArab

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:38 AM

BTW, very nice baby, Spot.
Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 05:45 AM

SportArab,

A can of Coca Cola does not produce babies.

But to answer your question, when Coca Cola signs a licensing agreement they abide by the terms of what they signed and strictly monitor how things are going… Coke does not wait ten year and then say, “we object to how you're using our product.”

AS for your question about ownership, it would entirely depend on the specific terms of the contract.

In this specific instance, we should all remember that the GOV freely chose to take the Oldenburg horse out of Oldenburg Germany and allow other breeders in other parts of the world to breed Oldenburg horses and use the O and Crown brand.

And, please know that I don’t in any way feel that you or your questions are “obnoxious”. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ise@ssl

Sep. 30, 2003, 06:09 AM

The filly's papers will tell you who she is registered with.

Cartier's points are critical to consider. Stability and consistency does affect the investment you or anyone has in their breeding stock. Services that focus on the market place YOU as a breeder exist in are critical to financial solvency.

As I stated above my dollars must trickle down to the marketing of horses bred HERE on this continent - NOT on horses bred in Europe. Those breeders have their own infrastructure to market their own. It's a world market and to believe that US breeders and European breeders can somehow be "partners" in selling horses just doesn't float. I daresay when you consider the fact that warmblood breeders in Europe DID NOT adjust their breeding numbers even when they saw that breeders in North American were significantly increasing their breeding programs makes for poor business planning. Eastern Europe is now back in the market place with sporthorses and they have a SIGNIFICANTLY lower overhead cost for maintaining horses and they are on the same continent as Germany, Holland, etal. In fact, ask they people in Europe what the impact has been. The Eastern block countries have provided even cheaper horses for middle to lower level horse demands. So the sales of horses by the "big players" is getting even tougher. LOOK at the auction results - comparatively and also for mean average pricing in Germany & HOlland. We always read about the "big sales" but those will always exist. Look at the balance.

People lament our current economic situation and the affect on our horse market (a discretionary spending item) BUT it's much, much worse in Europe folks!!

IT IS ....ULTIMATELY ...ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.

And I am proud to say the ISR/OLDNA does not underwrite or promote BUYING TRIPS TO EUROPE!!! The trips we sponsor are to see the breeding programs, farms, state studs and competitions only.

Sporthorse South

Sep. 30, 2003, 06:41 AM

A couple of thoughts -

If the Oldenburg Verband is so damned horrible, why in God's name do ISR/ONA breeders so ruthlessly try to defend their claim on the Oldenburg name and brand? Why are they not running in the opposite direction and DEMANDING that their registry of choice call itself something else? What ISR/ONA breeder in her right mind would want to be associated by name with such a "diabolical" organization as Oldenburg? Instead, ISR/ONA clings to the Oldenburg name and brand like Titanic victims clinging to a life raft. If ISR/ONA was as wonderful an organization, and its horses as wonderful as its supporters claim, it could very easily stand on its own merits as THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTHORSE REGISTRY. There would be no need to continually ride the coat tails of one of Europe's largest and most successful sporthorse registries. Its members would proudly stand up and shout "I am an ISR breeder", and buyers would flock to them because of the services it offers, and the quality of its horses. Yep, it's "all about money" all right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2003, 06:52 AM

Sporthorse South, it has been pointed out that the name INTERNATIONAL SPORTHORSE REGSITRY refers to the 2 lower mare books, PREMARE and MARE BOOK,, and OLDENBURGNA are the two higher books, MAIN MARE BOOK and PREMIUM MARE BOOK.

"There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

www.talloaksfarm.net (http://www.talloaksfarm.net)

ise@ssl

Sep. 30, 2003, 06:52 AM

We aren't riding coat tails Chris - we MADE THE COAT HERE!! It's "made in the USA" on the label. And when the coat was a coat that could sell competitively it became an issue.

AND we do put ISR before OLDNA on each and everything that's printed from our FARM. we are as proud of our ISR horses and ponies as we are of our OLDNA horses. The REGISTRY publishes EVERYTHING with the ISR above the OLDNA. And the registry EXISTS HERE, IS A LEGAL ENTITY HERE AND FILES TAX RETURNS HERE, AND HAS BOARD MEETINGS HERE, AND PROMOTES HORSES BRED HERE AND ONLY HERE!!! The registry is also constantly looking for ways to promote and acknowledge the accomplishments of HORSES BRED HERE.

People have the right to choose between these two registries and a host of others. It's sad that under the title of some mare/foal at an ISR inspection this never ending debate has to be resurrected yet again and again and again.

SportArab

Sep. 30, 2003, 06:55 AM

So... why not just have an ISR for all the books. And WHY have an Oldenburg NA that is not affiliated with the GOV but IS run by Germans????? I really don't get that..

I would certainly support an American Sporthorse registery run by Americans with the same standards Europeans use and true Warmblood stallions and mares.

Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

flshgordon

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sporthorse South:
A couple of thoughts -

If the Oldenburg Verband is so damned horrible, why in God's name do ISR/ONA breeders so ruthlessly try to defend their claim on the Oldenburg name and brand? Why are they not running in the opposite direction and DEMANDING that their registry of choice call itself something else? What ISR/ONA breeder in her right mind would want to be associated by name with such a "diabolical" organization as Oldenburg? Instead, ISR/ONA clings to the Oldenburg name and brand like Titanic victims clinging to a life raft. If ISR/ONA was as wonderful an organization, and its horses as wonderful as its supporters claim, it could very easily stand on its own merits as THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTHORSE REGISTRY. There would be no need to continually ride the coat tails of one of Europe's largest and most successful sporthorse registries. Its members would proudly stand up and shout "I am an ISR breeder", and buyers would flock to them because of the services it offers, and the quality of its horses. Yep, it's "all about money" all right. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't seen anyone here ruthlessly defending the Old NA's right to that brand....and I don't see the Old NA organization themselves ruthlessly defending their right to that brand....THEY DON'T HAVE TO!!!! The courts sided with them right or wrong so that part of it is a moot point for now. Besides....with the GOV taking pot shots at them constantly like this what would make them stand up and say oh never mind we give it back. Where did this "melodrama" from you come from all of a sudden? Titanic victims on a life raft.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Personally I am still waiting for Aurum or anyone to tell me exactly what characteristics make an Oldenburg horse. She already said that it is possible for an Oldenburg horse to be bred in America so I would like to know what it would take to do that. That's all I am after. The argument that just because one person from Germany wasn't holding the branding iron in his hand doesn't mean the horse isn't an Oldenburg.

aurum

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:01 AM

I can only see ignorance and arrogance in the belief to have done correct by keeping the brand.... our brand. And everything that is written to explain WHY that was done and why that would be correct is all nonsense. It was done to make money for the ISR and the ISR breeders hang on that symbol to be able to sell their horses, otherwise ISR would agree to make a new brand and to sell their horses with this brand...Oldenburgs they are no longer since the split. You can turn it as you like, but the Oldenburgs are bred only with the blessing of the GOV. And YES it is a money thing, but not for the GOV who spends a lot of time and money to travel to America to register and brand foals and not for us GOV breeders in Germany who support that with our pocket book - it is only a money thing for the ISR to keep the brand as they seem to need our brand on their horses to be able to sell them, otherwise they would have made up their own brand.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:01 AM

Chris ,

NO one said that the GOV is “horrible.” Nothing is being done “ruthlessly” and no one has called anyone “’diabolical” You’re inflaming and distorting again… at the very least, get a dictionary and use it.

There is no credible reason why the International Sport Horse Registry / Oldenburg Registry North American should change its name after 20 years. Their product and breeding goals haven’t changed… Rather, ISR/Old NA has moved forward to refine and solidify breeding goals and registry ideals established years ago.

You have made a specious argument… The ISR/OLD NA has had the name and the right to use the brand for 15 friggin years. There are tens of thousands of horses inspected and branded in the name of Oldenburg Registry North American (a.k.a. Old NA)

And, as you should know, the International Sporthorse Registry (a.k.a. ISR) is a separate branch with distinct breeding goals and requirements. Oldenburg Registry North American Horses (a.k.a. Old NA) are not the same as International Sporthorse Registry horses.

Chris, you continually present yourself as the GOV spokesperson and sale-agent in this county... Please, stop spreading misinformation and gossip (like your malicious 8-21-03 post about my husband and I). Either speak to the real issues (without clouding the picture with your hyperbole, gossip and self-serving baloney) or move along.

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>You can turn it as you like, but the Oldenburgs are bred only with the blessing of the GOV. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gwen,

When you speak of Oldenburg horses being only those being bred with the blessing of the GOV, which “blessing” are you referring to? The “blessing” the GOV gave the ISR/Old NA in 1988? Or the “blessing” the GOV gave the ISR /Old NA in 1993? Or the “blessing” the GOV gave Oldenburg Studbook North America in 1996? Or the “blessing” the GOV gave Oldenburger of American in 1996? Or the “blessing” the GOV gave the OHBS in 1998? You’ve got to admit, the GOV has been pretty free with their “blessings.” http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SportArab

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:13 AM

So.. correct me if I'm wrong.

An Oldenburg horse, by def'n, is a horse bred in Oldenburg, Germany, and approved by the Oldenburg Verband. By extension, in the U.S., a horse can be registered Oldenburg if it is approved by the Oldenburg Verband.

These are regional registries.. not breeds. That is why you can breed a Hannovarian to a Dutch and get an Oldenburg... at least that's how I understand it.

Fiery Run Farm (http://www.fieryrunfarm.com)

HFSH

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Spot,

Your filly is lovely! It's hard to see the brand in the picture... and the exact year is critical to the correct answer because in 1995 Dr. Ramsauer was branding for the Oldenburg Registry North America and in 1996 Dr Ramsauer was branding for Oldenburger of American and/or Oldenburg Studbook North America.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think you are about 1 year off. I have a mare that was born/branded in 1996, and her papers have Verband d. Zuchter des Oldenburg Pferdes on them, but the mare I own that was born 1 year later (1997) - says Oldenburg Registry NA. So I think 1996 was the last year of cooperation.

(If anyone really cares at this point)

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

flshgordon

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
International Sporthorse Registry horses.

Chris, you continually present yourself as the GOV spokesperson and sale-agent in this county.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The penny drops.....now I get where all the nastiness came from!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

aurum

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:17 AM

SportArab, you all got it, a horse that is bred and approved with the Oldenburg Verband is an Oldenburg even when it is born in the USA. I am in another region in Germany than the Oldenburg region and I am yet breeding Oldenburg horses because I respect the rules and follow through with them and then I present the mare and foals either to an inspection held in my region or I travel to another inspection held in another region, mostly North Germany.

Here I do the travelling, in the USA the GOV does the travelling.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

carosello

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:27 AM

OH I cant take it anymore

HOT CHOCOLATE ANYONE?

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Actually I think you are about 1 year off. I have a mare that was born/branded in 1996, and her papers have Verband d. Zuchter des Oldenburg Pferdes on them, but the mare I own that was born 1 year later (1997) - says Oldenburg Registry NA. So I think 1996 was the last year of cooperation.

(If anyone really cares at this point)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually HSFH,
You are correct about 1996 being the last year of cooperation... and I care a great deal about this point. The dates are extremely important and are clearly spelled out in litigation filed in this country. I urge people to simply check the court records.

Btw, we too have 1996 Registration papers from the Verband d. Zuchter des Oldenburg Pferdes which operated at that time in conjunction with Oldenburg North America. In fact, In July of 2000, our courts ruled that this was the only legal Oldenburg registry operating in North America in that time period. Btw, check the signature on your papers.

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 30, 2003 at 11:39 AM.]

Sporthorse South

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:30 AM

Elaine, I have NEVER claimed to be an official spokesperson for GOV, nor their sales agent. I have in fact repeatedly stated that I am NOT an official spokesperson - YOU are the person who repeatedly says that I am.

Regarding being a GOV "sales agent" - hah! We have some clients that we find horses for. We have looked at MANY horses, both here and in Germany, Quite a few of these are registered with organizations other than GOV, and in fact some clients recently purchased several horses belonging to a different registry. So claiming that I am a "sales agent" for GOV is a ridiculous statement also.

Sporthorse South

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:33 AM

flshgordon, don't believe everything you read. Just because Cartier / Elaine says something is so, doesn't MAKE it so. She hasn't been elevated to the status of God yet.

And I'm outa here for now - unlike some people on these forums, I have other things to do with my life (like show some horses - NOT Oldenburgs - to some clients). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Spot

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>OH I cant take it anymore

HOT CHOCOLATE ANYONE? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah - and I was going to recommend that the knives, sharp sticks and axes were locked away - quick! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

So - what do you all think about the debacle of the AI situation with the palomino TB's a few years back? Sorry state of affairs THAT was!

Honestly and truly as a total outsider to all of this, I think you all need to agree to disagree and go on with your lives. There are such stong, passionate feelings on both sides, I dont think it will EVER be resolved to the satisfaction of all. Never.

I even try and be good now whenever the topic of the JC palomino TB's comes up and a certain breeder is mentioned that was front and centre of THAT fiasco ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If I can be good (sort of http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) surely it should be possible for you all as well?! Maybe?

"Spot"

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:36 AM

Hot chocolate ... hmmmmmm.

Funnel cakes. Sorry, no comment. STILL haven't tasted one.

Brandy in hot chocolate YUM YUM YUM!

Deep fried Twinkies. GAG.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

Cartier

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:37 AM

Chris,
After all your gossip about my husband and I (which I will forward privately to anyone upon request), we finally have something we can agree on … it would be ridiculous for you to ever be considered a credible “spokesperson or sales agent” for the GOV.

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:41 AM

Hmmmmm.

Chocolate.

Laced with cyanide.

Hmmmmmm. Yum yum.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

PaulaM

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
[QUOTE]The dates are extremely important and are clearly spelled out in litigation filed in this country. I urge people to simply check the court records.

Btw, we too have 1996 Registration papers from the Verband d. Zuchter des Oldenburg Pferdes which operated at that time in conjunction with Oldenburg North America. In fact, In July of 2000, our courts ruled that this was the only legal Oldenburg registry operating in North America in that time period.
[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 30, 2003 at 11:39 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are completely right, the brand issue was decided by an American Court. I am sure if it was judged by an International Tribunal the outcome would have been a lot different.

Jasmine

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:44 AM

My boss brought us Itallian chocolates today. Yummmy beyond belief! Hazlenut and almond, covered in either dark or milk chocolate. Yummmm......I can feel my hips spreading. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

graystonefarm

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Brandy in hot chocolate YUM YUM YUM!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to try that one!

Dark chocolate covered espresso beans. Yum! Yes, I'm a coffee addict.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:47 AM

Jasmine ...

Oh, do I know what you're talking about.

LOVE the almond stuff.

And what about those chocolate covered cherries. Whooo hooo.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

Spot

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:47 AM

I am REAL curious now ... what would happen if all of you were locked in a room together? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Do you honestly hate each other THAT much overall or is it just this damned ISR/Oldenburg vs GOV discussion that makes you all go off the deep end?

just curious, I guess ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Spot"

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:48 AM

Sherry.

Espresso beans. Great stuff ... you also get the added benefit of a coffee buzz.

Yippee.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

CindyGen

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:50 AM

Spot you are perfectly right in your post above. There are so many Oldenburg breeders that do not get involved in these fights anymore (either registry, take your pick) because it is only detrimental to our breed. There are many of us that are much more concerned with breeding quality horses and many of us who actually get along quite well even thou some of us go with GOV and some with ISR. I have some pretty good friends that go with ISR and we have NEVER gotten into fights about this issue. I would just like to let the public know that we are out there concentrating on breeding good horses and that is our one and only priority. I would ask on behalf of those breeders, that people really think before they post on these threads. It's long since past time to move on.

graystonefarm

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
Chris,
… it would be ridiculous for you to ever be considered a credible “spokesperson or sales agent” for the GOV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elaine, that was an EVIL thing to say. You are getting WAY too personal. Shame on you.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

HFSH

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:55 AM

Oh I made the HUGE mistake of going to GODIVA last Friday! It was my mother's birthday and being the lovely daughter that I am, I bought her a ton of chocolate!!

Mmmm, do you know how good a big, fat strawberry dipped in dark chocolate is?

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

CindyGen

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:55 AM

Sigh - all I have here is day old donuts http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

Lisamarie8

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
I am _REAL_ curious now ... what would happen if all of you were locked in a room together? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Do you honestly hate each other THAT much overall or is it just this damned ISR/Oldenburg vs GOV discussion that makes you all go off the deep end?

just curious, I guess ... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a good Pay-Per-View Special to me. ALthough me thinks it would involve one party biting and spitting and punching and TYPING and the other party trying to drink some hot chocolate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--- "We're putting you on what we call sudden death academic probation."

Mariesonny

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:57 AM

Yes Talloaks. This is a rare case created at the initial split.

The mare is by an Oldenburg approved Hanoverian (approved by both organizations) and out of a TB/Percheron mare who was inspected by the ISR/Old NA prior to the split and was placed into their premare book due to her breeding. The TB/Percheron mare was also put into the premare book for the Gov.

So the mare was branded Oldenburg as a baby when the Gov was still allowed to brand. She has the Oldenburg brand on her hip. For my own reasons (the denial of the premium award to foals that are not out of main mare book mares, I've got one of those too) I chose to take her and her foals to the ISR/Old NA. Because she does not have over 75% sport horse bloodlines she is only allowed to be in the mare book not the main mare book and thus her babies are only allowed to have the ISR brand and not the Oldenburg brand.

So is she an Oldenburg and her babies are not? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Just another example of the mess created by all this nonsense.

www.angelfire.com/mac/evergreenfarm (http://www.angelfire.com/mac/evergreenfarm)

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HFSH:
Oh I made the HUGE mistake of going to GODIVA last Friday! It was my mother's birthday and being the lovely daughter that I am, I bought her a ton of chocolate!!

Mmmm, do you know how good a big, fat strawberry dipped in dark chocolate is?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With Champagne as a chaser? Oh please, I'm dying here.

Especially since my trousers are getting tighter... and tighter and tighter.

Can you gain weight from chocolate fumes?

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

HFSH

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HFSH:
Oh I made the HUGE mistake of going to GODIVA last Friday! It was my mother's birthday and being the lovely daughter that I am, I bought her a ton of chocolate!!

Mmmm, do you know how good a big, fat strawberry dipped in dark chocolate is?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With Champagne as a chaser? Oh please, I'm dying here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh gosh YES, champagne for all!!

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

graystonefarm

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:58 AM

Well, after all this talk about chocolate and espresso beans, that's what I have to have for lunch.

I wish I could try the brandy and hot chocolate for lunch. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

graystonefarm

Sep. 30, 2003, 07:59 AM

Champaigne! Count me in!!

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

Portia

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cartier:
In fact, In July of 2000, our courts ruled that this was the only legal Oldenburg registry operating in North America in that time period. Btw, check the signature on your papers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I really don't want to get into this, but you are wrong. That is not what the court ruled at all. What the court ruled is that the ISR/Old N.A. is the only registry that has the right to the use of the O and Crown trademark in the United States.

The court's ruling was not on the merits of the dispute. Instead, it was a procedural ruling based on theories of agency and waiver.

Shortly before or shortly after the Verband notified the ISR/Old N.A. that the verband was going to terminate the contract between them, the ISR/Old N.A. registered the O and Crown trademark with the USPTO. The verband had never registered the mark. A woman then worked with the verband to form a new Oldenburg registry that was associated with the Verband (and sorry I can't remember her name). The ISR/Old N.A. sued her and the new org for trademark infringement, and to avoid litigation the woman signed an agreed judgment stating to the effect that the ISR/Old N.A. had the mark and she wouldn't challenge it. The Verband did subsequently challenge the ISR/Old N.A.'s right to the mark; however, the court eventually ruled that the previous agreed judgment was binding on the Verband under a theory that the woman was acting as the Verband's agent in this country.

Now, please please return to the discussion of champagne and chocolates. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put simply, the necessary ammunition wasn't there - and no balls means no awards."
Robert Hamilton, president of the Clydesdale Horse Society of Scotland, quoted in Ananova, Sept. 29, 2003

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by graystonefarm:
I wish I could try the brandy and hot chocolate for lunch. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
http://www.graystonefarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well after this thread, why don't you just throw out the hot chocolate and have the brandy?

But ya gotta share! We all could use it ...

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

Oakstable

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:01 AM

Anyone remember the Pac Man game? This thread reminds me of that. I think 99% of breeders just want to enjoy their horses and not get dragged into the political mud. Somehow the 1% who finds this exhilerating can create and fuel a thread that is now up to 12 pages.

Amazing.

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:03 AM

Oakstable,

Do you like chocolate? How about brandy? Funnel cakes? You must like strawberries and champagne, n'est ce pas?

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

HFSH

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:03 AM

I've moved my program in a new direction because of the cat-fighting and confusion.

I can't see why we can't have our chocolate AND our brandy/champagne!

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CindyGen:
Sigh - all I have here is day old donuts http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awwwwww. Poor lambchop.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

graystonefarm

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom:
Well after this thread, why don't you just throw out the hot chocolate and have the brandy?

But ya gotta share! We all could use it ...

__The adventure has begun...__
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The champaigne sounds even better! After a glass (or 2) of champaigne, nothing gets to me.

I like dry champaigne the best with my chocolate.

Sherry White
Graystone Farm Sporthorses
www.graystonefarm.com (http://www.graystonefarm.com)

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HFSH:
I've moved my program in a new direction because of the cat-fighting and confusion.

I can't see why we can't have our chocolate AND our brandy/champagne!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are TWO separate entities! Can't you see that, HFSH? *Sheesh* Do I have to explain everything to you?

Brandy,

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

carosello

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:09 AM

And dont forget the favorite of Oldenburgs..

http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/muffins/chocolate-horse1.html

HFSH

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:10 AM

Are you suggesting brandy vs champagne? as separate entities?

I say they should join and become one - voila, mixed drink

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

carosello

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:11 AM

Who had day old donuts? Here this one is for you.

http://www.carrieschocolates.com/GenNov/Horse_Head.htm

hansiska

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I've moved my program in a new direction because of the cat-fighting and confusion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm with you, HFSH. Because of threads like this, I wouldn't consider acquiring or breeding an ISR/OLD NA or GOV horse. Too bad, because there are obviously some nice ones.

ise@ssl

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:11 AM

Aurum - I'd love for you to go on the ISR/OLDNA website (www.isroldenburg.org)and (http://www.isroldenburg.org)and) LOOK at the rules/regulations - then show me where I can see the GOV rules/regs and where our standards are in any way lower than those of the GOV. I'm happy to even fax the rules/regs from our Breeders guide. Thanks.

BTW - I also have friends who use other registries and the ISR/OLDNA or other registries completely. I know and correspond with people who work with the GOV exclusively. They have made a choice for their business - their decisions are fine with me. If someone calls me as a host that clearly wants the GOV site - I tell them to contact them. I DO NOT make a sales pitch for the ISR/OLDNA. If someone calls to ask about our registry - I provide information, links, etc.

I must again repeat - Heike started this thread using the leading words "Disappointment @inspection ISR/OLDNA." IT WAS NOT HER EXPERIENCE. It was heresay and the person she quoted hasn't posted here at all. But unfortunately the title stands - this is the unfortunate part of this entire thread. It's like dropping a "stink bomb" and driving in the other direction as fast as possible.
IT JUST PLAIN STINKS. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by carosello:
And dont forget the favorite of Oldenburgs..

http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/muffins/chocolate-horse1.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG! I'm dying here. CHOCOLATE HORSE MUFFINS.

Waaaahaaaahaaaa.

See Erin, this IS horse related.

Good one, Carosello. I'm still laughing.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 30, 2003, 08:20 AM

My personal viewpoint is that originally, the GOV made a huge mistake in not registering the O and crown as a trademark. If they had, the Oldenburg fight would have been quite different. Breeders would have simply had the option of staying with a Registry (ISR) that has done a lot for them, or supporting the "name brand" that had not really done much to promote/help USA breeders. The ISR did move to capitalize on this mistake, and was successful in defending their claim - largely due to GOV ignorance of US law.

Two Wrongs don't make a Right. The ISR was wrong in taking legal posession of a symbol that rightfully belongs to the German breeders/people, but the GOV was wrong in not looking out for the interests of the American breeders that have invested much of their lives and futures to promote Oldenburgs on this side of the pond.

The leaders of each registry need to get past the issues of what is right for them personally, and do what is right for the Oldenburg Breeders in both the USA and Germany. This registry needs to be put back together for the good of all.

It is unfortunate that the "wrong" of "stealing" the brand is ending up the only thing with the potential to force both Registeries into negotiation to do the "right" thing for the breeders, but that is the way it is.

Do the right thing for the Oldenburg Breed, and put pressure on BOTH registries to negotiate an agreement. Quit stabbing at each other over the shortcomings of your leaders.

JMHO

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

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