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View Full Version : Spin Off- Help me plan a shopping trip for young hunter prospects in the US



Jsalem
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:26 AM
Hope this is allowed here:

I just sold my second lovely imported hunter that was bought through a great agent via video tape. I got really lucky twice and the horses were great youngsters. We put them in our program, "hunterized" them, showed them and sold them.

Next time, I was thinking of flying over to Germany to select a prospect. So you all say that it can be done here? Help me plan that trip. I would want to see young prospects 3-4-5 year olds- nicely started under saddle, at least free jumping. They would need to be priced according to quality and training to allow me to put time, training and showing into them and still make a profit (if all the stars line up, of course). Where in the US could you see a large bunch of started youngsters all together- not driving all over creation to see one or two?

Hunterlover
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:32 AM
And other warmblood societies as well like Holsteiner, RPSI etc... I attend the AHS inspection at Mo Swanson's and have met many nice breeders with excellent hunter prospects(of course they are young). I have several nice prospects as well and specifically breed for the hunter ring. Good luck. www.huntervalefarm.com

hellerkm
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:35 AM
Hope this is allowed here:

I just sold my second lovely imported hunter that was bought through a great agent via video tape. I got really lucky twice and the horses were great youngsters. We put them in our program, "hunterized" them, showed them and sold them.

Next time, I was thinking of flying over to Germany to select a prospect. So you all say that it can be done here? Help me plan that trip. I would want to see young prospects 3-4-5 year olds- nicely started under saddle, at least free jumping. They would need to be priced according to quality and training to allow me to put time, training and showing into them and still make a profit (if all the stars line up, of course). Where in the US could you see a large bunch of started youngsters all together- not driving all over creation to see one or two?

How about asking for videos and then setting up a time for people to bring the prospects that you like on video to YOU? I would think in this economy there are MANY sellers on the East Coast who would be willing to do this. Then maybe set up the same type of situation out on the west coast( do you know anyone who would allow you to use their farm as a point of gathering?) In this economy people are willing to do almost anything to get a nice horse sold for good money. Might be worth a try. I have NO expertise in this area but always thought this would be a good way to see a bunch of horses without having to travel far and wide!

lisa
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:37 AM
You can PM me if you want. :) I did A Lot of looking/phoning all over the country before I found Carhartt.

M. O'Connor
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:43 AM
Just wondering, assuming the answer will be yes, but must they be WB, JS?

And, have you posted this thread on the SHB forum as well?

Kaleigh007
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:02 AM
So the breeders don't need to make a profit but the middlemen do????? Seems like the breeders have the lionshare of the time and money invested in these youngsters and they don't get to make any money but you get to handsomely get compensated for your months of lunging,lunging, and yet more lunging???? Let's see...say you breed to Hennessey $1500 stud fee, shipping of semen, booking,veterinary, foaling,handling foal, keeping foal for 2-3 yrs at least..what do you think that adds up to??? That is not worth making a profit on but what you do is????:mad: I feel for the breeders having to deal with this mindset..I really do. No longer wonder why our country is going down the path it is! OP your agent must loveeeeeeeeeeeee you..a video shopper??? $$$$$$$$...

Vandy
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:13 AM
Are you comfortable with buying from an auction? A lot of nice young warmbloods go through the New Mexico Sport Horse Auction http://www.nmsporthorseauction.com/ (though it's held in the fall - I assume it will happen again in fall 2010) and I imagine there are tons of other events like this across the country...

ImJumpin
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:34 AM
Hope this is allowed here:

I just sold my second lovely imported hunter that was bought through a great agent via video tape. I got really lucky twice and the horses were great youngsters. We put them in our program, "hunterized" them, showed them and sold them.

Next time, I was thinking of flying over to Germany to select a prospect. So you all say that it can be done here? Help me plan that trip. I would want to see young prospects 3-4-5 year olds- nicely started under saddle, at least free jumping. They would need to be priced according to quality and training to allow me to put time, training and showing into them and still make a profit (if all the stars line up, of course). Where in the US could you see a large bunch of started youngsters all together- not driving all over creation to see one or two?

Where can you see something like that? I personally have bought my last two WBs from a place exactly like that in the US. Mid sized breeding farm with excellent quality mares (I think a lof of US breeders forget that side of the equation) and always enough horses going to make it worthwhile. I just bought my mare from this farm in November. I rode four, passed on riding two others (knew from watching them with the farm's rider they would not be what I was looking for), and if one of those four didn't work out, she had two and three year olds that had just been started (I was hoping to find a 4-5 year old, and I did).

I know this farm isn't the only one out there like that. If you take the time to look into the US registeries and identify the breeding farms that are running in the US based on who is presenting to the registeries, you'll find them. I know of five off the top of my head, not including where I "shop."

Ray
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:45 AM
trainers often bring nice young prospects to WEF :)

RyuEquestrian
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:51 AM
I'd say the same for Ocala, especially since there are so many breeders right in the area.

ktm2007
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:05 AM
So the breeders don't need to make a profit but the middlemen do????? Seems like the breeders have the lionshare of the time and money invested in these youngsters and they don't get to make any money but you get to handsomely get compensated for your months of lunging,lunging, and yet more lunging???? Let's see...say you breed to Hennessey $1500 stud fee, shipping of semen, booking,veterinary, foaling,handling foal, keeping foal for 2-3 yrs at least..what do you think that adds up to??? That is not worth making a profit on but what you do is????:mad: I feel for the breeders having to deal with this mindset..I really do. No longer wonder why our country is going down the path it is! OP your agent must loveeeeeeeeeeeee you..a video shopper??? $$$$$$$$...

Why the chip on your shoulder? I have been following the other thread that this one was the spin off from, and I don't understand your attitude. And you are unrealistic to think that the only thing that the OP did to make a profit on her last two was lunge them in to the ground. Give me a break! OP is honestly asking where she can go look at US bred stock and have a similar experience if she were to go look overseas again.

Hillside H Ranch
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:36 AM
A lot of areas have regional breeder's groups; I know we do here in the Kansas City area. If you contact someone from the group they can often get the word out on what you are looking for, and some people will even help coordinate a way to visit all the applicable farms in the area (I know I do this, no charge). So you could either visit 6-10 farms within driving distance from one another in a single day, or you could probably have sellers bring prospects to a centrally located farm in that area. I have done this for buyers who have contacted me; I usually only have 1 or 2 horses that meet a given description, but I'm more than happy to take them around to see other horses in the area. Gives me a chance to visit my horsey friends, and perhaps have a very happy buyer who will come back later/send others my way.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:37 AM
Op was on other thread professing that she can't find quality stock here in America. She also thinks that the breeders should not expect to make much if any profit on their foals! I guess the breeders should just breed and give them away????

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:40 AM
And, have you posted this thread on the SHB forum as well?


Please do. I expect that you will receive replies.

Jsalem
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:06 PM
Uh, Kayleigh, I didn't respond to the other thread.

I almost never lunge.

The horses I'm buying are in the 25k range. All I said was that they need to be nicely started and at least able to free lunge.

I never said that the breeders shouldn't make a profit.

CHIP ON THE SHOULDER....

lisa
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:20 PM
I've been reading both threads -- Kayleigh should read for comprehension... she's clearly confused. :rolleyes:

Gry2Yng
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:27 PM
Check out W Charlot Farm

http://www.charlotfarm.com/


They have video of a lot of their horses right on the site. No stupid music of slow mo. ;) There 2007 foals are being started under saddle, I believe.

showjumpers66
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:34 PM
My suggestion would be to prescreen with videos, find the ones of interest, and then see if you can clump them together a bit before scheduling your trip. Often times, breeders will bring young horses to us so that buyers can see a selection when they come rather than just one or two.

risingstarfarm
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:35 PM
Ditto Hillside H Ranch. We have a breeder's cooperative in Central Texas (www.sporthorsebreeders.com (http://www.sporthorsebreeders.com)). Another resource is the local h/j association - there are usually farm/trainer contacts listed. Try http://www.thja.org/Trainers/Trainers.aspx for example. There's 30 trainers listed in the Houston area alone - and many of them have young horses for sale.

Overtime, perhaps trainers could be convinced that the market was sufficient at home. In a perfect world, more would form relationships with breeders to keep a steady supple of quality youngsters available.

YankeeLawyer
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:37 PM
Uh, Kayleigh, I didn't respond to the other thread.

I almost never lunge.

The horses I'm buying are in the 25k range. All I said was that they need to be nicely started and at least able to free lunge.

I never said that the breeders shouldn't make a profit.

CHIP ON THE SHOULDER....

Contact Pat Limage or any of the other members of the Mid-Atlantic Horse Breeders group (MAHB) and they will circulate an email to the member farms with your specifications. Off the top of my head I can think of a few members who have prospects that would meet your criteria, all within a couple of hours' drive of each other (note in Germany you would have to do some driving, too, plus the transatlantic flight and whatever hassles associated with *that*). Some farms are just a few miles from each other (there are probably a dozen WB breeders within a 10 mile radius of my farm).

http://mahb.homestead.com/

Also, you could coordinate a one-stop shopping day with local breeders who could bring their horses to one of the farms in the area with very good facilities. We do that from time to time for clients.

CBoylen
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:37 PM
Since Gry2Yng posted the Charlot site, I will add that I rode a lovely horse by Futurist this year, so it may be interesting to you even if you are not a Rio or Cabardino fan.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:47 PM
Also try Copper Top FArm in Ohio. She put together a lot of nice horses for me to look at. Some homebred plus others. FAcilities are good. Looks like she has a nice Escudo I son, probably younger than you want. Under "Sold Horses" is Ernie Banks. He is the Escudo I grandson that I purchased as a 3 year old and sold as a 5 year old. I get emails from his AA owner and she says he has a home for life. He was circuit champ at Vermont in 2009. Site says he is German bred, but only to the extent that they had the semen shipped from Germany. He was foaled in Canada.

Now that I think of it, they have quite a few horses under saddle as well. At one point they had a full sister to Ernie Banks (changed that by the way).



http://www.coppertopfarm.com/members/coppertopfarm/home.nsf/Pages/About%20The%20Farm

http://www.grandefarms.com/

ImJumpin
Jan. 16, 2010, 07:27 PM
I've had a couple messages asking what farm I was refering to in my first post on this thread. Bannockburn Farm in southern IN. Website is www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

Allyn always has a nice selection of prospects going. She has an excellent big eq/junior hunter prospect right now-- he was amazing to ride, plus many more.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:28 PM
I've had a couple messages asking what farm I was refering to in my first post on this thread. Bannockburn Farm in southern IN. Website is www.bannockburnfarmllc.com (http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com)

Allyn always has a nice selection of prospects going. She has an excellent big eq/junior hunter prospect right now-- he was amazing to ride, plus many more.

Yes, they have nice horses.
But in looking at the sales horses on the web site ( and there are a lot of them) the only horse with a jumping pic is the very first horse, it's free jumping and it's noted as sold.
I don't think any of them have a riding pic and there are a few that are old enough to have been started.

And that was the criteria, right?
It should be well started under saddle and at least free jumping.

Allyn M
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:45 PM
Sorry Pine Tree Farm,
We have had illness in our family since last August so I have not taken many pictures. I am going to try to fix that this spring when everyone has lost their winter coat and we can bring them up to the arena.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:57 PM
Sorry Pine Tree Farm,
We have had illness in our family since last August so I have not taken many pictures. I am going to try to fix that this spring when everyone has lost their winter coat and we can bring them up to the arena.

Well you aren't alone in not having much in the way of pics of young riding horses.

Hunter Vale only has one horse with a jumping pic ( and it's a pony ). Several horses for sale. None appear to be started under saddle, at least no riding pictures.

Central Texas Sporthorse Breeders
5 year olds: 4 horses with under saddle pics out of 19 . Two of them are clearly dressage oriented. One is an AQHA BN eventer and one just might possibly be a hunter type. no jumping pics.

five horses of 2004
1 horse has a riding pic. Not jumping.

ten horses of 2005
Not one riding pic. Two appear to have foal pics, not recent.

Mid Atlantic Hanoverian Breeders
1 broodmare with riding pic.
1 with riding pic. Ad says horse did show as jumper.Can't fund a USEF recorded horse with this name.
4 dressage types with riding pics

Looked at 17 ads starting with 2000 birthyear.

Coopertop has one 2 year old for sale.

So where are all these US breeders with horses that meet the criteria?

I would have asked for 5-7 year olds what are ready to do 1st year green or at least doing PreGreen at present.
Based on what I'm looking at I'm not sure I'd find much.

So prove me wrong and find some websites that advertise US bred horses ready to go as Hunters.

can't re-
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:18 PM
One reason you aren't finding them on breeder's websites is because they have been sold. Many breeders do not want to bring them long and prefer to sell them before they are started. While I do have one that fits the criteria, though despite being the quietest, easiest horse, he is *gasp* a TB.

Also, not everyone has a website. I know quite a few people in my area with nice youngsters under saddle that are not advertised online.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:30 PM
One reason you aren't finding them on breeder's websites is because they have been sold. Many breeders do not want to bring them long and prefer to sell them before they are started. While I do have one that fits the criteria, though despite being the quietest, easiest horse, he is *gasp* a TB.

Also, not everyone has a website. I know quite a few people in my area with nice youngsters under saddle that are not advertised online.

Then provide the OP with a list of farms where she can find horses that meet her criteria.

can't re-
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:41 PM
Then provide the OP with a list of farms where she can find horses that meet her criteria.

The OP is more than welcome to contact me. :)

ImJumpin
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:46 PM
So where are all these US breeders with horses that meet the criteria?

I would have asked for 5-7 year olds what are ready to do 1st year green or at least doing PreGreen at present.
Based on what I'm looking at I'm not sure I'd find much.

So prove me wrong and find some websites that advertise US bred horses ready to go as Hunters.

Just because they don't have pictures of the horses, doesn't mean they don't have horses that fit the criteria. As you mentioned, Allyn only has the one jumping photo, but she has more horses that are jumping. I don't get some people. You want everything and want to pay nothing for it. You want the breeder to produce quality foals, get them started and ready to take in the greens, spend $$$ promoting them, but then you want to pay low dollar amounts for the horses. How does that equation add up?

The horses in Europe going at the same level are not any cheaper, especially once you add in the shipping costs. The breeders over there don't have a gazillion pictures of the horses going under tack either on their websites. The ones you see on video have brokers that have added in a significant cut, and that raises the price for the quality, and thus makes them more expensive than the US bred ones.

The horse I bought from Allyn in November fits your criteria. She was four, ready to go in the ring as a hunter this year in the baby greens. Heck, she could probably go in the pregreens at the rate she is excelling in training, but I'm not going to push her. No, there isn't a picture of her under tack or jumping on Allyn's website. Doesn't mean she wasn't doing so-- a simple email could have told me that.

Find me a horse in Europe that cost the same amount as I just paid for my mare, of the same quality and training stage. Don't forget to add in the cost of a plane ticket for me-- I want to be able to sit on the horse before I buy it. Oh I am sure it can be done, but not that easily.

Backstage
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:47 PM
Also try Copper Top FArm in Ohio. She put together a lot of nice horses for me to look at. Some homebred plus others. FAcilities are good. Looks like she has a nice Escudo I son, probably younger than you want. Under "Sold Horses" is Ernie Banks. He is the Escudo I grandson that I purchased as a 3 year old and sold as a 5 year old. I get emails from his AA owner and she says he has a home for life. He was circuit champ at Vermont in 2009. Site says he is German bred, but only to the extent that they had the semen shipped from Germany. He was foaled in Canada.

Now that I think of it, they have quite a few horses under saddle as well. At one point they had a full sister to Ernie Banks (changed that by the way).



http://www.coppertopfarm.com/members/coppertopfarm/home.nsf/Pages/About%20The%20Farm

http://www.grandefarms.com/

Did you purchase him (Ernie Banks) at the Canadian Warmblood Auction in London, Ontario? I can only assume we are talking about the same horse, since I seem to recall Grande Farms being the breeder of the Ernie Banks that went through that auction. A neat horse, and a super bargain at the time. Glad to hear he ended up with someone who adores him.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 17, 2010, 12:32 AM
I have the sense that some posts here have been posited in a somewhat derogatory manner towards American breeders, both individually as well as a group. Perhaps a more constructive tone would elicit more forthcoming responses from breeders. No one wittingly places themselves or their fellow breeders in a position in which they and their endeavors are bashed.

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 17, 2010, 08:31 AM
SHF put it diplomatically, but my observation is that Pine Tree has some kind of odd agenda to constantly berate American breeding efforts, from searching for a horse to purchase, stallion suggestions, to talking about results and the recording system. I don't get it, personally.
I am sure some of this persons points are valid, but frankly, the nasty, negative tone and delivery are enough for me to really have no interest in their contributions, valid or not. I think its time for me to add them to my ignore list.

As a small breeder that (works my butt off!!) strives to produce quality foals, I have acquired what I find to be a nice group of mares that I hope are and will be good producers. If they fail to produce well, I will make some tough choices, but I do not intend to cast them by the wayside because one person on the COTH does their darnedest to be all doom and gloom about everything sporthorse breeding.

Carry on.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 17, 2010, 09:33 AM
That was my whole point. There are some on here who bashed the American breeders implying that you can't get a quality young horse here for what they can spend on one in Europe . The European market can and do breed large numbers. Some countries are subsidized by the Gov't and they all can ship their unwanted horses to France! There is a woman from Germany whose cousin is a breeder of dressage horses. She said the one comment from him that stands out is "stupid Americans".

Another problem in the USA is the lack of up and coming HORSEMEN/WOMEN. We just discussed this at the GP last night.
Our good riders are getting old and riders to replace them are few and far between and the knowledge of how to properly care for a horse is being lost. I'm sure that will twist up some panties but it is the sad truth. There are not very many kids anymore that live and breath horses. Some don't want to take the time to learn the proper way to ride and are content to let their groom take care of the horse. Flame away...just reiterating what was discussed last night between more than a few old time professionals.

lisa
Jan. 17, 2010, 09:37 AM
The OP is more than welcome to contact me. :)

For crissakes, the OP is saying she *wants* to stay here to buy! You all should be reaching out to her, or at least trying to provide her some incentive to contact you. Even Microsoft has to advertise… :)

She’s not saying she’s looking for the Deal of the Day. She’s saying she wants to see a comparable product. For all of the whining and complaining breeders do about buyers going across the pond, here’s your chance to prove (on a tiny scale) that you can provide the comparable buying scenario you say we have here.

Justice
Jan. 17, 2010, 09:38 AM
As someone who buys youngsters, I'll add my two cents. I think it's great that JSalem wants to shop in the US. The price range she stated, for a young horse started under saddle, not necessarily over jumps, seems very reasonable to me. And yes, for that price, you can import a nice youngster with those same qualities. But personally, I applaud her for wanting to "buy American." Maybe that's because I drive a Jeep.

It will be interesting to see which farms come up. I think that if American breeders had more of a market for horses like that, they could adjust their programs. What I have noticed is that many breeders just do the breeding, and have to send them out to get started. Or, as another poster mentioned, they sell them before they are started (this is how I have bought all of mine). It seems that they either don't have the opportunity to make much of a profit if they sell as babies, because the horse is a total gamble, or they have to pay so much to get the horse started that they don't end up making much of a profit anyway.

As for my shopping recommendation, try silvercreeksporthorses.com. That is where I bought the 2YO I have now, and they are fabulous to work with. I saw that Showjumpers66 posted here that she can have others trailer in youngsters to look at as well. They have a lot of connections, due to their popular breeding program and the fact that they recently hosted the stallion testing.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 17, 2010, 09:46 AM
SHF put it diplomatically, but my observation is that Pine Tree has some kind of odd agenda to constantly berate American breeding efforts, from searching for a horse to purchase, stallion suggestions, to talking about results and the recording system. I don't get it, personally.

.

You really don't read well, do you?
In this thread and the other one I've mentioned that there are certainly quality horses being bred here.

And you don't like what's been said about buying abroad or about American Breeders running their business in a professional manner.

The problem isn't what you breed, it's pricing young horses by what you have in them, not what they are worth, not investing in training to produce winning horses that present your program in a good light, breeding to the stallion du jour regardless if he brings anything to the table besides being 'pretty' or an unusual color, and no unified system or cooperative that operates outside a registry to make sure your performance stock is out there for the public to see.

And my comments about results are about those who do not honestly report their stallions perfomance record or his offspring. If you think that sort of marketing is OK that may also be part of the problem.

Lucassb
Jan. 17, 2010, 09:47 AM
I think the point that some are trying to make is that while American breeders without question DO produce some really nice young hunter prospects now, they are hard(er) to find than comparable prospects in Europe.

Comparable means similar quality, education, & price.

Lisa, who posted above, is a great example of a buyer who "went American" and got a lovely, lovely young hunter - not her first, by the way.

However, I know how much time and effort she invested in the search and as she says, it was A LOT. And she has the time, energy and talent to bring one along that is not ready to step right into the PG ring if she chooses. Not everyone has those resources to devote to that kind of search when they are buying.

So to all the folks who have lovely started young horses but no current photos, or even a website... you are putting yourself at a HUGE disadvantage!!

The reason that brokers can add $$$ to a sale is because they provide something of value - information, exposure, and convenience for the buyer.

Asking buyers to do that work instead ie, coordinate a bunch of breeders to show you the horses in the area, or seek out all these breeders who haven't put up a website (we would know about and find you how?) is largely unrealistic if you hope to compete against a product that is better (marketed) and more easily presented by the european breeders.

I am NOT bashing US breeders; I am a fan and root for them in a big way. But you guys make it sooooo hard for someone like me to buy from you!!!

There are market forces at work in selling horses just in any other market. If you have one source of goods that is easy to find, convenient to work with, and offering LOTS of suitable choices, and one that is difficult to find, harder to access and offering either fewer choices or a product that is "not as far along,".... well, most people (like me) are going to take the path of least resistance (and buy from the Europeans, or someone with good connections to Europeans.)

3Dogs
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:12 AM
you can try contacting Silverhorne Sporthorse - unfortunately, the new website is under construction but I think if you contact them, they can send DVDs on a number of started 3 and four year olds. I mentioned Edgar before too - these are all CA based -
In PA, there is Triad Farm Hanoverians and Mo Swanson's operation.

It is challenging to find the breeders who keep their youngsters and start them in some fashion -

M. O'Connor
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:21 AM
Maybe what's missing here is a middleman, and a fair way to compensate such a person?

As someone with experience in evaluating horses, logistics, geography, marketing, and contract negotiation, maybe I am stumbling onto a business plan here?

Would buyers AND breeders subscribe to such a one-stop service?

crackerjack
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:29 AM
http://www.southlanefarm.com/

Maybe an hour or so over the Can/US border. A couple of friends have purchased young horses from this place. They are absolutely lovely. Superb movers and jumpers. If I was in the market I'd be looking here:yes:

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:33 AM
Maybe what's missing here is a middleman, and a fair way to compensate such a person?

As someone with experience in evaluating horses, logistics, geography, marketing, and contract negotiation, maybe I am stumbling onto a business plan here?

Would buyers AND breeders subscribe to such a one-stop service?

A constructive contribution! Please explore this possibility further.

Our own hunter prospects are still young or, indeed, in the planning stage. However, come and see us in 3-4 years!

Perhaps M.O'Connor will have established her middleman function by then!

Lucassb
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:35 AM
Maybe what's missing here is a middleman, and a fair way to compensate such a person?

As someone with experience in evaluating horses, logistics, geography, marketing, and contract negotiation, maybe I am stumbling onto a business plan here?

Would buyers AND breeders subscribe to such a one-stop service?

I think there are folks who do that here already, in a sense. I know two that I've dealt with are considered "dealers" here (buyers purchase from the middleman directly) but they function in essentially the same way.

The guys I know bring over maybe a dozen horses a year, from their contacts in Europe. They pay the expenses to get the horses to the US and they put a bit of time into "americanizing" them, for lack of a better term. (They also feed, shoe, and promote those horses at shows, which costs $$$.) Generally they pay for the horse *after* it has been sold to the american buyer, though, so they don't lay out the whole $$$ upfront.

If US breeders produced similar stock and were open to a similar arrangment, I imagine it might be very attractive to these guys, since it would lower their upfront costs (shipping by air is pricey.)

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 17, 2010, 11:04 AM
You really don't read well, do you?


I read well enough to see you continue with unnecessary nasty commentary and personal attacks.


And you don't like what's been said about buying abroad or about American Breeders running their business in a professional manner.

Really? :lol: I think its up to the individual breeder to run their business how they see fit. Good or bad, the choices they make are theirs to work with.
I dont agree with all the decisions, but they are not mine to make. I believe in live and let live, and the market will dictate which programs will be successful, and which ones may not last.

Same said for buyers. People will buy what appeals to them. If its on my sale page, great. If its not, well I hope they find the horse of their dreams, preferably from an American operation, but that's not always realistic.

So, no you really don't know me, or the horses I have bred, but thanks for reinforcing my decision to put you on mute. :rolleyes:

headsup
Jan. 17, 2010, 12:40 PM
There are a lot of nice prospects here in ocala....I've shown some very nice ones this week around that range. Many of the barns here bring youngstock down and start them with the thought of selling by the end of circuit.

can't re-
Jan. 17, 2010, 01:02 PM
I agree, there are dozens to see in the Ocala area.



For crissakes, the OP is saying she *wants* to stay here to buy! You all should be reaching out to her, or at least trying to provide her some incentive to contact you. Even Microsoft has to advertise… :)

She’s not saying she’s looking for the Deal of the Day. She’s saying she wants to see a comparable product. For all of the whining and complaining breeders do about buyers going across the pond, here’s your chance to prove (on a tiny scale) that you can provide the comparable buying scenario you say we have here.

I have one suitable horse. Since there is a no advertising rule here, I was trying not to cross the line.

The other breeders I know of in my area are professionals and most do not advertise online. It is not my place to change that for them. I am more than happy to speak privately with anyone interested in the names of the farms that I know of in the Ocala area.

omare
Jan. 17, 2010, 01:42 PM
"So where are all these US breeders with horses that meet the criteria?

I would have asked for 5-7 year olds what are ready to do 1st year green or at least doing PreGreen at present.
Based on what I'm looking at I'm not sure I'd find much."


In all fairness, the business model most breeders follow (or can afford) would mean you are not often going to find a horse ready to do the 1st years still with the breeder --(or for that matter 5-7 years old- many breeders nightmare I would think to still have one that age unless intentionally kept. How many horses can you keep to that age and still breed and get foals on the ground-before you have way tooo many horses?)

But this would also be true in europe -yes? Producing a horse for the show ring and ready to jump around a 3'6" hunter course (or even a pregreen course at Wellington) is a speciality on either continent I would think and the horse has been moved on and ownership transferred by that age to the specialist/sales barns. Are the made 5-7 year olds being purchased from the breeders -if is, does the often alluded to cheaper costs of making show horses in Eu allow for the breeder to get them to that stage? Just curious as to the EU breeder "business model'-thanks :-)

M. O'Connor
Jan. 17, 2010, 01:48 PM
Omare raises a valid point.

The up and running horses that suit the American hunter market are not useful in Europe, and therefore are not so valuable to them--this keeps their price down to an extent that it offsets the costs of importing them.

3Dogs
Jan. 17, 2010, 02:18 PM
Omare and M'Conner - glad you brought this up, since while thinking about my horse shopping trips to Europe, the horses I tried, mostly in the 4-5 year old range, were not with breeders.
What I think is different as someone said earlier is a very distinct "middle layer" - a group who take foals and then market them at the 3-5 year old range after putting in the prep work - whether they actually buy the foals I do not know. However, it seems their market is not for the totally finished product, nor are they big in the show world per se. I do know a breeder her who has used a system of letting a BNT take a horse and payment is only upon sale. But it is difficult, I find, to locate any trainer who has the time or will to put in the work for that "baby to 3-4 year old" or even the backed 3 year old!

YankeeLawyer
Jan. 17, 2010, 03:31 PM
So prove me wrong and find some websites that advertise US bred horses ready to go as Hunters.

I thought the OP was shopping for a horse, not a website. I don't even have a website for my farm and do not plan on having one in the near future and do fine with word of mouth and select advertising. Youngsters change all the time and many breeders do not update their websites constantly. I personally know of several horses owned by Mid-Atlantic Hano breeders that fit the OPs criteria.

Jsalem
Jan. 17, 2010, 03:57 PM
Just got in from a client shopping trip in Ocala. I'll be slogging through all these suggestions and will try to give some feedback to what I think is out there as opposed to what I've gotten from Europe. Stay tuned....

lauriep
Jan. 17, 2010, 05:11 PM
Omare and M'Conner - glad you brought this up, since while thinking about my horse shopping trips to Europe, the horses I tried, mostly in the 4-5 year old range, were not with breeders.
What I think is different as someone said earlier is a very distinct "middle layer" - a group who take foals and then market them at the 3-5 year old range after putting in the prep work - whether they actually buy the foals I do not know. However, it seems their market is not for the totally finished product, nor are they big in the show world per se. I do know a breeder her who has used a system of letting a BNT take a horse and payment is only upon sale. But it is difficult, I find, to locate any trainer who has the time or will to put in the work for that "baby to 3-4 year old" or even the backed 3 year old!

Taking horses "on the cuff" used to be VERY common, at any age, but it is so damned expensive to show now that most trainers can't afford to put so much upfront against a sale that may or may not ever happen. And I can't blame them.

lauriep
Jan. 17, 2010, 05:14 PM
I thought the OP was shopping for a horse, not a website. I don't even have a website for my farm and do not plan on having one in the near future and do fine with word of mouth and select advertising. Youngsters change all the time and many breeders do not update their websites constantly. I personally know of several horses owned by Mid-Atlantic Hano breeders that fit the OPs criteria.

So, short of coming on COTH and finding a thread such as this, how would the OP find a group of breeders, in a certain area, with horses to sell? Wouldn't it behoove at least the umbrella operation to have a website with interesting horses, contact info and a description of how long it would take to organize a viewing of the available animals?

3Dogs
Jan. 17, 2010, 05:31 PM
Lauriep - agree with both your last posts.

YankeeLawyer
Jan. 17, 2010, 07:05 PM
So, short of coming on COTH and finding a thread such as this, how would the OP find a group of breeders, in a certain area, with horses to sell? Wouldn't it behoove at least the umbrella operation to have a website with interesting horses, contact info and a description of how long it would take to organize a viewing of the available animals?

A group of us has been in the process of putting together something along those lines for the last month. Otherwise, I would suggest contacting one or a few breeders in a particular area and ask them to assist in putting a list of possibles together. I shop here and in Germany and never have any problem finding exactly what I want / need, and frequently assist others in doing the same thing. I am more than happy to do it and not once have ever asked for anything in return. I also frequently go to see youngsters so that I will be able to recommend the good ones based on my own impressions of them first hand.

And as I said, if anyone contacts MAHB, they send an email with desired specs to all members, who then in turn put lists of possibles together.

Jsalem
Jan. 18, 2010, 09:33 AM
I've spent an hour or so with some of these suggestions. As a public service, here are my findings so far.

No cigar yet... I've seen some nice individuals, but they are either too young, too expensive (45k and up) or not nice enough. Many of the ones that catch my eye are imported!

Maybe what I'd like to find is that "middleman" concept I've seen suggested here. Someone who buys the nice foals, yearlings from the breeders and grows them up, starts them undersaddle, free jumps them. I don't care if they're clipped and shiny, I'd just like to see a group of prospects- 4 or 5 in each place- yes/no, yes/no.

lisa
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:50 PM
Lisa, who posted above, is a great example of a buyer who "went American" and got a lovely, lovely young hunter - not her first, by the way.

However, I know how much time and effort she invested in the search and as she says, it was A LOT. And she has the time, energy and talent to bring one along that is not ready to step right into the PG ring if she chooses. Not everyone has those resources to devote to that kind of search when they are buying.


Thanks, Lucassb... :) I just want to add, though, I had fairly specific criteria when I was looking... I *preferred* to have one unstarted, though not too young, with specific bloodlines because I wanted to put the odds in my favor as far as temperament and talent... So I can personally attest to 1) breeders don't want to keep their youngsters until started/ready to start and 2) once they're sold they go who knows where, and *then* how do you find them?

So that being said, I have often thought of the "middleman" business plan. I need seed money, though... :lol:

Also -- Jsalem -- I know of someone who did just that when she took a break from breeding her own: bought nice yearlings, showed them on the line, and then sold them (and may have started one or two). She now has a yearling and two-year-old by Chaleon out of her mare by Galoubet, and she is now in foal to Cabardino.

The catch? She doesn't advertise and (AFAIK) isn't a member of any breeder's group.