? For all you Jumper Breeders out there.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I understand that jumping is one trait that the "experts" (who ARE they, anyway?) have decided can be/is passed on genetically.

Hmmm.

First, any comments on that statement.

Secondly, I am considering a colt with an *extraordinary* pedigree (four-generations of toptoptop jumpers.)

Please don't laugh if this is the dumbest question in the world, but for something like jumping, do you buy on pedigree alone? I mean, with dressage, it's *somewhat* easier: you look for/at movement. But yearlings shouldnt' be freejumped, so...

Anyone get my conundrum here? What's your take on it? BTW, don't want to mention specifics. Can we keep this discussion hypothetical?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

I understand that jumping is one trait that the "experts" (who ARE they, anyway?) have decided can be/is passed on genetically.

Hmmm.

First, any comments on that statement.

Secondly, I am considering a colt with an *extraordinary* pedigree (four-generations of toptoptop jumpers.)

Please don't laugh if this is the dumbest question in the world, but for something like jumping, do you buy on pedigree alone? I mean, with dressage, it's *somewhat* easier: you look for/at movement. But yearlings shouldnt' be freejumped, so...

Anyone get my conundrum here? What's your take on it? BTW, don't want to mention specifics. Can we keep this discussion hypothetical?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Whitehedge Farm]

Jumping ability is highly heritable!
If the colt has correct conformation and good movement I would not hesitate at buying a jumper prospect as a foal/yearling. Has the dam produced any other foals? That is helpful also.
BTW, you can free jump yearlings over little cavalettis if you do it only a FEW times and are careful. Zangersheide Stud routinely chases groups of foals and yearlings over LITTLE jumps to get an idea of their aptitude.

Anne

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hi Whitehedge ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jumping ability is highly heritable!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And thanks! This is very good to know. I also thank you for the correct useage of the word "heritable." (And here I thought I was so erudite ... HAHAHA)

As far as jumping, well, I'm one of those people who believe in taking it sloooooooow, so I can wait until next year when he is two.

Let me ask you, would you buy on bloodlines alone (providing no serious conformation faults)?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[ThirdCharm]

Unfortunately, there really isn't anything else you can judge a yearling by! So provided there are no noticeable conformational or temperamental flaws, one would have to base the purchase of a yearling jumper prospect on bloodlines.

JenniferS

[lyrical]

what a great question!http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Yes, I think you can have a good idea if you have the ability to see a young horse's natural athleticism. That might not tell you what sport he will be best at, but if the athleticism is there, and he is bred for the jumpers, I would feel very good about purchasing him. You won't know about his mind until it's time to ride him, but knowing what the mare and stallion dispositions were like, certainly will give you some idea of what to expect.
I wish I could give you a clear list of characteristics to look for, but all I can say is it is a lot more that good conformation. In fact, the standard "well conformed" horse may or may not be an athlete at all. The true athlete naturally engages his hind end, has an easy, balanced movement that is both agile and light and yet powerful at the same time. Perhaps most importantly, he has a certain air of self confidence about him that is evident when he moves,and sets him a little apart, even if he is low in the social order of the herd.
I think other breeders can find better words to describe what I am saying, but every successful breeder or buyer of young horses has an eye for the good ones at a young age. Maybe some of the other breeders will comment?

[Twinkletozzz]

Lyrical, I think you've done a "lyrical" job at explaining the inexplicable. Anyway, Oldenburg Mom, I look at pedigree first. I don't even get as far as the barn to look at them until I've scrutinized it pretty well. But what I look for in the jumpers is a confident youngster with an inordinately powerful engine, well coupled, who uses at a young age his neck in such a way as to enhance his effectiveness in motion, one who is extremely comfortable with a lightened forehand, who is catlike in his movement, loaded like a spring. I want a very forward thinking and moving individual who I hope will hit the ground on the far side running and not look back. I'm looking also for extraordinary bravery and a certain amount of charisma. I don't think I'm doing a very good job trying to explain this ... please, somebody else hop in here.

[Tiki]

As you say, you CAN see it in a foal. I have a filly who is as graceful as a cat in her walk. She exudes confidence. She'll almost slink up to a fence (2 1/2 - 3 feet - what used to be a very large pen to keep my dogs and horses separate) and just flow over the fence and slink away. My same age colt would try to emulate her and walk up after her, hit he knees on the fence, stumble over it, half fall down and then skulk away looking around to see if anyone had seen his very poor attempt to imitate her. I can't wait until she's old enough to put in training. For now, I'm not TEACHING her to jump anything. I won't be able to keep her in a paddock or pasture if she finds out just how easy it is to jump out! BTW, she's bred to death for jumping. The colt was bred for dressage.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

oo Tiki your filly sounds LOVELY!

I would buy on bloodlines alone, BUT...I do know of one horse who's mother was a top hunter (TB), and his daddy was a jumping fool (holsteiner)...and that horse doesn't jump. Now, I have heard he's going to be a lovely dressage horse!

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

[nsm]

I think there is no doubt jumping ability is hereitary, interestingly, our stallion if turned loose in our indoor will jump whatever is in the arena, and so do the majority off his offspring, I was sent a tape of a filly of his who at a few days old when put in the outdoor proceeded to jump some poles on the ground with no prompting, over and over, they had to stop her. One of mine jumped over his mother when she was laying down, at 2 hours old, at 24 hours jumped 2 hay bales,and later when he was alittle older, put out in my indoor and first thing decided to go through a gymnastic that was set up, [fortunately low]and had us scrambling to set the poles down,he still kept jumping through it, over and over, both of my foals bred to be jumpers jump anything that is up in the arena, just like their dad and I hear from so many of the mare owners that theirs are the same way.
As to what to look for, I think everyone , paricularly Lyrical and Twinkletozzz did such a great job of expaining I can only add alittle bit, to me -yes the pedigree is a huge factor,the conformation, as well the athleticism, I watch them run and play, stride length, even at that age, the other thing I look for is the attitude, jumpers have to be tryers, they have to have the will to want to be good at their jobs, the will to suceed,and a competitive spirit, so I watch how they carry themselves, how they deal with things, I try to asess wether they have the necessary boldness and determination in them,
Good Luck---Nancy

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[Spot]

I think that jumping ability is heritable, the same way "cow sense" is in certain cutting horse lines and speed is in certain racing lines.

Of course environment plays a role, as do training methods, but if you are specifically looking at weanlings and yearlings for this purpose, thats about all you have to go on! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree - great question!

"Spot"

[Oldenburg Mom]

Well gee, folks. Thanks for all the input.

nsm & Tiki--- I'm amazed at these types of stories ... babies jumping everything in sight just because they loff it. And I've heard the "jumping Mama" type of story before. Any info on how this has translated into performance? I am even less experienced in jumping than I am in dressage (if that is possible) so anything you can pass on my way is helpful.

ALSO, and very important. WITHOUT TRYING TO CRITICIZE ANY ORGANIZATION, what's your take on some of the young futurity setups? They've got, apparently, quite demanding courses for 5 and 6 year olds. Again, this is not meant as any criticism of any organization, I just thought "older" is better when it comes to stressing their bodies.

As far as this baby goes, I've seen him romping in the pasture. And while I haven't seen him being a "jumping fool" (&lt;--meant affectionately) he does have ... hmmm ... a confidence I like. He has been turned out with another yearling, a visitor, who is larger than he is. And he (the one I'm looking to buy) has no problem standing up ...and taking the dominant position ... to the bigger guy ... in fact, I was surprise the bigger guy was such a wuss!!

Along those same lines his personality seems, well, rather "I am who I am and I don't care if you don't like me." Does that make sense? Or is KT just making stuff up?

He did clear-from pretty much a standstill-the dutch door in his stall, however. What's that? Three feet? That's good? Right?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In fact, the standard "well conformed" horse may or may not be an athlete at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lyrical ... you're right of course. Anyone ever hear of a horse called Seabiscuit?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Portia]

I can only go by my meager experience, but I did buy a long yearling jumper prospect based largely on pedigree (daddy Pikadero an international GP horse, grand-daddy Prinz Gaylord the same and known for producing willing jumpers), plus an excellent shoulder and compact frame. She did a little bit of free jumping for the video just so we could see what her attitude towards the fences was, and that was all.

And now, 6 1/2 years later: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
COTH Forums, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Left and Right of Horses.

[Oldenburg Mom]

OMGiH.

To quote that scholar, hoopoe, "Well, I am just gobstopped."

Portia. Izzat YOU? OMGiH ... I am sooo IMPRESSED.

The adventure has begun...
KT

[clint]

I completely agree about jumping traits being heritable. A few years ago I had a yearling by Kalypso that I was chasing around a large area with a quarter horse. Both of them had very recently been gelded and they needed to exercise. After a couple of laps of this area, I could see the Kalypso gelding looking at the open back above a 4' wall in a run-in shed. I knew what he was going to do; he picked up a lovely organized canter and headed straight for the shed, clearing that opening in fine style. However, the little quarter horse behind him went right through it; it never occured to him to jump it. And last year a Graf Top II filly, out of a Kalypso mare, jumped out of her 4' paddock and strolled around until captured, and a week later left her mother and jumped in a pasture to join a herd of horses. We had to change her accomodations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Janice]

I had a Riverman filly a few years ago,her favorite pastime was jumping the stream in her paddock. She'd just canter a circle that included jumping the stream. Also had a Reno filly that jumped out of the field..look around then jumped back in with her mom.

[Oldenburg Mom]

(Hi Janice! How the heck are ya?)

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Oldenburg Mom]

Any comments about jumping at 5 and or 6?

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Portia]

No, KT, that's the REAL Portia and Trainer Jo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But as long as we're showing off, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif here's the other new photo I have of them:

~~~~~~~~~~~~
COTH Forums, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Left and Right of Horses.

[Portia]

KT, do you mean is 5 or 6 old enough to be jumping, or what levels should they be doing at that age?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
COTH Forums, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Left and Right of Horses.

[Tiki]

Hey, nsm, another foal I had out of the same dam as the filly I described jumped his mum when she lay down for a roll. He had an injury that precluded him from being a top jumper or event horse. (I think the stupid *#$%@ trainer I had him with ran his hip into a stall door or gate and never told me it happened - gggrrrrrr) Even so, he loved to jump and I never ever saw him refuse a jump. He was taken to Fair Hill after an event to try him cross country and he jumped every single jump there, including ditches, water and coffins. I was told that his legs were a teeny bit rubbery when he jumped the ditch the first time, but he did jump it. He went right back and jumped it a couple of more times with no hesitation. I've seen him jump 3'-3'6" and that's with a dropped hip! This is a TB mare with Bold Bidder to Bold Ruler on the top, Native Dancer on the bottom and Princequillo (gallop and jump all day Princequillo babies). The filly is by O'Leary's Irish Diamond out of this dam. The OLID foals are very hard to keep in pastures and paddocks. King of Diamonds was one of the greatest jumping sires ever. This filly is sweet and friendly as they come, but bold and curious and completely unflappable. You just about can't scare her. Plastic bags on whips? Ha! Rattling grocery bags coming up the driveway? What's in them? Any carrots for me???? Let's have a look.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
KT, do you mean is 5 or 6 old enough to be jumping, or what levels should they be doing at that age?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, didn't think of it! How about answering both.

The adventure has begun...
KT

[Tiki]

Actually, the Young Jumper Championships start at 4. The goal is to reward the horse with the highest number of clean rounds and NOT go for speed. The jumps are not that high at that age and the idea is to build the young horse's confidence, not scare it to death. It's finally going the way of the Europeans - to school and expose the young horses and build their confidence, rather than seeing how high and how fast they can go at the youngest age possible.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[nsm]

Tiki-what a shame, so so sorry about the colts injury, particularly one with such a strong desire to jump.[needed more expletives for person who did this,#$%&*)@#@&^%+_)%$#, there.] King of Diamonds is fabulous. I don't know alot about OLID, but now I'm going to look him up.
Oldenburg Mom,--As to 5+6 year olds, the jumper futurity as Tiki said starts with 4 year olds, they jump 3"6", the 5 year olds jump level 4-5, but the finals are level 5 which is 3'9"-4". The 6 year olds jump level 5-6, finals at level 6 which is 4"-4'3".
I think the concept is great, and we need a program to develope young jumpers, however for me, and this is just my own personal opinion, I am sqeamish about jumping young horses too much or too high.Their joints don't close until 4 or so, and to get them ready to do 3'6" well at age 4,that's alot of training and prep time. Likewise jumping them 4' at age 5 is not comfortable for me. Our stallion won the Mid-West Int. Jumper Futurity, and was top 4 at the finals, but this was prior to us owning him, I don't forsee us participating in the 4 or 5 year old classes with any of his offspring, as I just feel I would rather start them slower and make sure they stay sound and have long careers.As well when you think about it, the 5 year olds jump 4', the same as a working hunter, how many 5 yr. olds do you see in the working, hopefully none. But then the maturity level of each horse is different,as well as the physical developement, and again I say--this is merely my personal opinion.

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[Sporthorse South]

Although jumping ability is known to be highly heritable, I'd be very careful about purchasing a jumper prospect foal - esp. a stallion prospect colt - based strictly on bloodlines. Lots of German and Dutch horses with solid jumper pedigrees get sold to Americans every year as hunters because they lack the scope and/or courage needed for high level jumping competitions. Pedigree can certainly be one indicator of POTENTIAL, but it doesn't guarantee ABILITY so I guess the best bet would be to test the youngster over a few low crossrails or something. If they have the courage and desire to jump, they tend to show it while pretty young. They also usually have great self-carriage and balance, a forward and springy canter, and a bit of a cocky attitude about jumping in particular and life in general.

Here's an interesting example: We have two 2-year olds at the barn, both of whom have some very good jumping and dressage blood behind them. One is mostly Holsteiner by blood and although both of her parents were upper level DRESSAGE HORSES, this filly just LOVES to jump and finds it SO easy to spring over ditches in the pastures, poles in the arena, etc. The other one is mostly Hanoverian by blood, and she doesn't have much of a clue about jumping, even though she has some very good jumping blood in her pedigree also - a ground pole in the arena makes her stop dead and "think" about how to get around it! So pedigree alone isn't a particularly reliable indicator of aptitude - a lot depends on the individual horse.

[Oldenburg Mom]

First, thank you all for responding. I have learned a LOT.

Second, and I know I'm being a bit defensive here as I'm really hoping this guy has what it takes... BUT. I'm going to spend some time watching him in the pasture as I have not heard of any anecdotal info on "jumping for fun" kinda stuff that you've spoken about.

Personality wise, he does have guts. That I can say as I have seen it. What really interests me at this point, however, are his bloodlines, which really ARE exceptional. I'm talking about Olympic sire, immaculate (but young so no performance record) Mom (is it correct to say Dam?) and a Dam sire that also went to the Olympics. And on both sides going back there are stars galore, every generation.

Of course that doesn't mean squat, I know. I keep thinking of the movie Twins with Danny Devito and Ahhhhnold. Which is he going to be: the runty guy or the hunky genius?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They also usually have great self-carriage and balance, a forward and springy canter, and a bit of a cocky attitude about jumping in particular and life in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am going to be watching for these traits when I see him next, Sporthorse South.

Anyone else have anything, specific I should keep an eye out for?

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Likewise jumping them 4' at age 5 is not comfortable for me. Our stallion won the Mid-West Int. Jumper Futurity, and was top 4 at the finals, but this was prior to us owning him, I don't forsee us participating in the 4 or 5 year old classes with any of his offspring, as I just feel I would rather start them slower and make sure they stay sound and have long careers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I felt as well ... which is why I asked the question.

I am puzzled, however, knowing this why would an "organization" ask these guys to do this kind of work at this early age. Again, not to single out anyone organization/person/whatever. I am merely curious.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Tiki]

More anecdotes about jumping for fun. When my Oldenburg/Hanoverian colt would gallop through the field as all the horses were tearing around he would step/tromp on any small branches in the way, or go around them. When my Irish Sport Horse filly came up to them, if they were big enough to see she would jump them. She would jump downed branches, she would jump sticks, she would jump tall wildflowers. She has a very, very nice trot, but an incredible, effortless, graceful, flowing canter and flows over anything in her path whether on the ground or (hopefully for her) above the ground.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[nsm]

I have to add one too, that happened yesterday. Our 9 week old orphan foal, Will goes out in a pasture that runs the width of 5 others that run right up to it, he goes out with a goat and a pony. Anyway, I had to run home quick to get something and they were fine, all grazing together, I was driving back, and in this pasture noticed a goat and a pony but no Will. I hit the brakes as I now am having heart failure, then I notice a small chestnut in a different paddock, and the only way to get there is over a 4'6" fence that has electric wire across the top, so now I am having horrible visions of him injured, bleeding ect ect., a wrecked section of fence. But upon a closer look the fence is intact, and the electric wire is still on and running, and Will is peacefully grazing in a different paddock , actually, one with better grass, with out a mark on him, we checked and checked evey inch of that fence, and as I said the only way he could have gotten to the other paddock was to jump. Apparently it was one of those -grass is greener things, but the fence is heavy box wire, the top board is 4"6" at the low spots, 4'9" at the high and the electric wire makes it 3" higher yet, and there is NO WAY to get through it,or under it, and yet there he was in a different area, so we have to conclude, he jumped it.

Home of the Oldenburg Stallion Ironman

[Oldenburg Mom]

nsm ...

I don't believe for a moment he went OVER the fence. Silly girl. He went UNDER it ... you know, like a worm? (LOL)

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Oldenburg Mom]

BTW, I WAS kidding.

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Tiki]

Well, my girlfriend bred ponies for a while and she had a TERRIBLE time weaning one of the foals. Every time she separated the mare and foal, the foal went over 2 fences to get back with the mare in non-adjoining pastures. She finally had to lock the little devin in a stall to wean it! As I said, I'm scared to death to try even small jumps in a chute with my filly until she's safely in the hands of a trainer as I'll never, ever again be able to keep her in a pasture if I 'show' her how to get out.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[Portia]

OM, I've never seen Portia jump "just for fun," but she definitely loffs jumping. She's got a very competitive streak in her that makes her treat the jumps like a challenge to be conquered. ("Ha! Take that, evil looking oxer with cowboy and cactus painted on the wings!") http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~
COTH Forums, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Left and Right of Horses.

[CathyKb]

I hope the jumping trait is highly inheritable. I bred my Belgian Grand Prix Jumper to Contendro this year. Has anyone heard how Contendro's foals are doing?

[bassy]

OK, an even more detailed jumping heritibility question. What about the "style" of a jump. What I mean is, just because your horse was bred to jump doesn't mean he will have any bascule or good knees (can you tell I am a hunter rider? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), does it? I have seen plenty of hunter babies that jump nice, but not as nice as daddy. Is this something that just is the roll of the dice?

[Tiki]

Well, who was the mare and what does she have for a background/pedigree?

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[bassy]

Good point! No one stallion or mare in particular.

[Twinkletozzz]

As someone's post suggests, the jumping trait is very often exhibited extremely early. My Don Alfredo stood absolutely immediately, got his bearings, boinked around a little and went over to paw at his dam to rouse her for breakfast, and on the second day was cantering in his stall on those wobbly legs, body slamming his mother for lack of brakes, then standing up on his hindlegs trying to get his forelegs over his mum's back and/or neck (which he did successfully), licking her face and mouth. Needless to say, my eyes were like rolling up in my head and I was thinking "why me?" He rarely has all fours on terra firma at the same time and I've noticed too that as a very young baby he used his neck well for balancing and turning and dancing and doing all his silly coltish stunts. Personality wise he is loaded with it and quite a brave little guy. All my jumpers have been like that. My premium membership is in the works so that I can soon post a pic or two.

[can't re-]

Hmmmmmmm......
I want to say that a good jumper wont necessarily be out in your field jumping stuff but the more I think about my horses and foals.....which are bred to jump.....
My horses have all shown me at one time or another that they can/will jump on there own. I have one foal this year who jumped a 3' coop at 2 weeks of age. My other foal this year did everything possible to go around the poles on the ground.....but one day, out of nowhere he cantered straight at the 3' coop and sailed over it and kept on going, ever so proud of himself. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
My jumper mare spun me off (OK, I bailed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) as a three year old and galloped for the barn, a friend ran to shut the gate of the field we were in just as the filly got to the gate, without missing a beat, the filly took a step to the side and cleared a 5'+ fence........eek, I hadn't yet bought her and thought for sure she was on a suicide mission.
And finally, I planned on free jumping a 2 year old last year over a 2' vertical, as soon as I let him loose, he went around and over the jump 5 times without any encouragement. I had seen him jump the water trough a few times when he was a weanling.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Ok.

Well, first, I loff everyone's stories. They're just great! I also loff everyone's good writing! Twinkletozzz, "boinked" seems particularly appropriate!

So let's see if we can translate some of these antics.

Whose got a pasture-nut that's older and actually competing. What have you found? Anyone have someone who was NOT a pasture grand-prix-er that's doing well?

Help me out here, folks ...

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[can't re-]

My mare who jumped the 5' fence has been Champion 3'6" jumper and definitely could go higher if her owner wasn't such a weanie.

The mare's dam was National Junior Jumper Champion and her sire was a stakes winner.

Here she is with Billy Worthington in the irons.

[Oldenburg Mom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by can't re-:
My mare who jumped the 5' fence has been Champion 3'6" jumper and definitely could go higher if her owner wasn't such a weanie.

Here she is with Billy Worthington in the irons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wheeeeeee! OMG Look at her! She IS overjumping the fence, right (&lt;---honest question, not being a S.A.)

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Twinkletozzz]

Woohoo!!!

[Twinkletozzz]

If I can get this to work, he's my hopeful jumper at 4 months!

[can't re-]

Nice foal twinkletozzz, that sure is uphill!

Here's my now 4 month old showing the caveletti who's the man. (He isn't missing part of his head... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
This foal jumped a 3' coop at 3 months.....boy do I wish I got that on film.
He had better form over the coop. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[can't re-]

See he does have a whole head and seems to have a liking for the long spot!

[Twinkletozzz]

Can't re- Thanks! Your boy is very nice, and you're right....he's great with the OMG spot!

[Twinkletozzz]

... and my "hopeful jumper" can be seen boinking uphill at http://community.webshots.com/user/twinkletozzz


//http://community.webshots.com/user/twinkletozzz

[*SERAPH*]

Oldenburg Mom--

Jumping is inheritable but every horse is an individual with certain likes/dislikes and mental capability. Also, it's important whose bringing the colt/foal along as the wrong trainer could completely ruin a horse with a natural desire to jump. (Of course, you shouldn't have anything to worry about there! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

That being said, as you know, the breed of horse I purchased doesn't have superstar jumpers in his pedigree because that is not what they are used for generally speaking. However, I do know that his great uncle (at 15.1) easily cleared 7 feet and quite frequently jumped out of his pasture.

What I looked for first was at the conformation. Then I looked at mentality/personality. There is a certain type conformation that is quite suitable for high level jumpers; which the "horse" you're interested in, if it's the one you told me about, certainly has. I look for the "look of eagles" in the eye. A personality that has a bold confidence, a proud and somewhat arrogant (without ugliness) demeanor, a horse that is somewhat willfull. I then look at movement and want to see that the horse pushes off his hind-end well, and moves very uphill. I especially like a well-balanced self-carriage (at the canter the most) with some knee and hock action. I want to see speed, ability to change direction on a dime, and a certain cattiness. I like to see a horse launch himself into a canter or gallop with a leap (when out playing) and good bucks and balanced rearing and moving agilely and athletically between the two are good signs as well.

Conformation, Personality, Movement--those three things in that order for me, personally. And all almost equally important.

I was lucky enough to see my guy jump over a log from a canter and he sailed over it stag like from a canter, completely balanced--unfortunately, no camera! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Lianne]

Hey, SERAPH - read my post on the "what do you breed for" thread, a few pages back (I'm the last one who posted). I think it would interest you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jumping ability and, to a certain extent, form, is inherited, but a horse has to have that extra spark, that desire to eat up the ground and the course. That's what will make a champion. Just because a horse physically CAN doesn't mean it WILL. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[*SERAPH*]

Lianne--

Of course that would interest me! I think the ASB is underrated as an excellent cross with anything as well as being a powerhouse in its own right! But more and more people are catching on...can't wait to see your foal. When is it due?

And I whole-heartedly agree with you about having that "spark" to do jumpers. A horse can be the most perfectly conformed, athletic animal in the world and still lack the necessary personality to do well in jumpers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

Seraph, I just looked at the pictures of your stallion in the album linked in your profile. How come he wasn't posted as a model on the conformation critique thread? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is intended only in the spirit of helpfulness. When you have a "stallion prospect", you usually take great pains to protect the horse's image and reputation. Posting photos of the horse in a backyard setting, with a scraggly, unpulled mane, wearing a bit (which looks far too low in his mouth, by the way) AND a chain over his nose, will do nothing to make people ever want to breed to him. Horse people have long memories, and even if you don't ever plan to stand him to outside mares, you never know what might happen in the future. I am not saying that every picture should be a professional shot, but don't shoot yourself in the foot before you even begin marketing the horse!

I also noticed on the other thread that your GSD bitch just whelped ten crossbred puppies. Best of luck finding homes for them. Obviously I do not know the details of the situation, but if your bitch is not a show or schutzund dog, would you please please have her spayed? This is my own personal soapboz so please indulge me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[*SERAPH*]

CuriousGeorge--

Thanks (AGAIN) for the heartfelt concern. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And (AGAIN), this thread has nothing to do with your comment. Don't know what your personal beef is with me, but if you really need to say something to me, feel free to private topic me.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Lianne]

SERAPH - Why isn't your boy on the asb sporthorse site?

My mare is due end of June/beginning of July. I'm so excited! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[nhwr]

I am a dressage rider and sometimes breeder. I bred for a dressage foal (dam- TB; sire KWPN dressage horse w/ some jumping lines). I had to sell the little brat because as a yearling he kept jumping out of his pasture (The fence was 5ft http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) I had just had a complicated C section and I couldn't manage him. That was 7 years ago. He is cleaning up up jumpers, no I understand. They are talking about doing some Grand Prix with him next year.

[MdLib]

Seraph, I have tried to access your website, but the connection is refused. I'd love to see your Saddlebred Sporthorse stallion, sounds like he is very correct.

[*SERAPH*]

Lianne and Mdlib--

Check your private topics! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[MdLib]

No disrespect, but this Saddlebred sporthorse stallion is not what I expected, nor what I would look for if trying to predict jumping ability from conformation.

Joy of jumping I suppose has a heritable component, but I often wonder if we give them more opportunity to be jumpers than anything else - they are bred with the expectation, are turned out in rings with jumps, see other horses jumping, etc. However, I know an off-the-track Standardbred who jumps her 5' paddock fence on a whim. I've also seen 14hh coon-jumping mules pop 5' from a standstill; the mules are bred for it, obviously the standardbred isn't.

I would pay for jumping ability in a pedigree if the goal is to emulate ancestors. Temperament and conformation are definitely heritable, so why not the ability to snap up the knees, for instance.

[*SERAPH*]

MdLib--

Well, opinions are opinions, and we shall have to agree to disagree. Time will tell...

Oldenburg Mom--

As I said beforehand, conformation is correct for a jumper. Watch for athleticism in the form of bucking and leaping and how agile he is between the two. And watch for mentality; he should be sensitive but very solid.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Oldenburg Mom]

Hmmm.

Just got back from some shows, and am relaxing by reading coth ... and this thread.

Seraph ...

You know, I need to look at this colt in the pasture. Unfortunately (well, actually it's fortunately!) he was getting a little studdy... so was put in with a b!tchy alpha mare, which straightened his act up ... But now he's not playing much.

I'll see more... but I'm keeping my eyes open for that "look of eagles!"

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[milk warts]

I think the physical ability to jump is very heritable. I'm not so sure about the "love" of jumping, nor do I think "the look of eagles" is any kind of tip-off. I do believe that some horses are naturally more brave about things and more athletically inclined, making jumping easier (and more interesting) for them mentally and physically.

I have a youngster now who is fairly confident and easy-going, but a little looky... once she gets a good look at something, she is perfectly happy to jump it. The "look" she needed used to be a "walk-up and sniff", now she just needs to trot the colorful or flowery ones a single time. Does she love jumping? Nope, don't think so. But because we have very carefully started her, I think she finds it interesting, maybe kind of fun, and certainly more interesting than flatting. And it means she gets to canter, her favorite thing in the entire world. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That said, her siblings are known for being laid-back and easy just like her, and they all seem to show an aptitude for jumping.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MdLib:
No disrespect, but this Saddlebred sporthorse stallion is not what I expected, nor what I would look for if trying to predict jumping ability from conformation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Conformationally, I would look for something with a much more substantive and muscular hind-end, a shorter back and quite a bit more depth through the heart-girth, a less upright shoulder and not nearly such an upright set to the neck. When *SERAPH* said he "jumped like a stag", it didn't surprise me. He's built like a stag. While he may have some spring, he doesn't strike me as a horse that will have much scope and bascule. But that's just my opinion. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[*SERAPH*]

Oldenburg Mom--

Also wanted to say that you shouldn't necessarily be looking for spectacular movement. It should definitely be good and forward and long-strided; however, many times jumpers aren't the best movers. You want to see balance at the trot and especially the canter, and balance in transitions between the gaits. You should also watch him at play and look for how well he can go from collection to extension and back again. The canter should be long-strided and rhythmic but you need to see how adjustable he can be between collection and extension.

"Look of Eagles" translates to a bold and confident demeanor; and if, for some reason, we were looking at a possible stallion prospect for high-level jumpers we would definitely want to see this air about him.

Milk Warts--

I'm sorry, are you and CuriousGeorge into wrestling? 'Cause you've got a great tag team going! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

As far as your comments about my stallion, when you are judging a horse conformationally you have to set aside what your notions of what a jumper, or dressage horse, or event horse "look" like. What you judge is the skeletal structure beneath the physical body, which accounts for 90% of conformation. Not all great jumpers are heavy-boned, heavily muscled, with massive hind-quarters. The hind-end should be relative to the individual. He is very balanced all the way around while he is not enormous behind he is not light either.

That being said, I believe he has enough muscling in his hind-end to perform well. He's not perfect and I've never claimed so.
Now, I would love to do a conformational analysis on my stallion for you but I do not want to change the subject of this thread. However, you couldn't be more incorrect in saying that my stallion's back should be shorter; it is already almost too short. His shoulder is slightly upright but ties into withers that lie behind the elbow--this means he will have scope; his humerus is also quite vertical from point of shoulder to point of elbow and it is long, which means he will be able to pick his legs up good and high and tight over fences. He neck ties in correctly to his withers and also underneath and he is built upright like most modern competition animals are--especially those doing dressage and jumpers. He has an ideal loin. It is short and very broad and his last rib ties in extremely well; he has an excellent connection there and because of this he should have no problem producing an excellent bascule. When I said he jumped like a "stag" I knew one of my "adoring COTH fans" would be all over it in a NY minute. I was obviously correct. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif However, when I said he jumped like a "stag", I was not referring to the pose most of us imagine when a stag leaps with an inverted back. Imagine if you will a charging stag, with head lowered, front legs raised high and tight, and hind legs pushing fully extended from behind. The effect is one of a horse standing in a half rear then leaping forward and flying over the ground (which is what he was doing in essence.) I believe the haute ecole movements are called the levade preceeding into the courbette. Perhaps my choice of a stag was improper imagery; I should have said "he leaped into the air like a Lipizzaner horse."

Okay sorry, Oldenburg Mom, I'm done. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[starboard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as your comments about my stallion, when you are judging a horse conformationally you have to set aside what your notions of what a jumper, or dressage horse, or event horse "look" like. What you judge is the skeletal structure beneath the physical body, which accounts for 90% of conformation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shouldnt it count for 100% of conformation?? Or am I confused here.
And shouldnt the front end of a horse match the rear end of the horse? To take Lord Helpus' pet peeve and borrow it for a moment, there looks to be two different horses attached at the girth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now, I would love to do a conformational analysis on my stallion for you but <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a wonderful conformation thread going on in "horse care"
why not post him there?

[*SERAPH*]

starboard QUOTE:

"Shouldnt it count for 100% of conformation?? Or am I confused here.
And shouldnt the front end of a horse match the rear end of the horse? To take Lord Helpus' pet peeve and borrow it for a moment, there looks to be two different horses attached at the girth."


"90% of conformation is the result of bone structure. The lay-out of the horse's bones, their lengths and the angles which they create with each other, plus their muscular and ligamentous attachments, is what we call 'conformation'. They control how the horse stands and moves in all gaits, and also how he jumps." This was taken from 'Sport Horse Conformation and the Breeder' by Dr. Robert Baird.

The other 10% of conformation are physical aspects about the animal on the outside.

If you go back to the link where I have pics of him up, look on the second page at pics 024 and 026. He is standing more normally (though not in perfect 'sporthorse' poses) and not trying to crane his head up and around to check out mares going by.

I will say that he is not a Thoroughbred or a Warmblood. He looks like what he is, which is an ASB, albeit 'sporthorse type'. Just as the Akhal Teke, the Shagya, the Andalusian have more 'exotic' breed traits, so too has the ASB. However this, as long as they are structurally correct, does not keep them from being or becoming high level performance horses.

starboard QUOTE:
"There is a wonderful conformation thread going on in "horse care"
why not post him there?"

Yes, I am well aware of the conformation thread going on in "horse care". It's now on the second page of that board as I had to take a couple of weeks off of doing critiques and tend to some things. Perhaps you haven't read it in awhile. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Please understand I am not trying to be rude. People do not have to agree with me. And just because we may disagree with one another doesn't necessarily mean we can't at times both be correct. Certain conformational aspects are acceptable to one and not acceptable to another and vice-versa. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[starboard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, I am well aware of the conformation thread going on in "horse care". It's now on the second page of that board as I had to take a couple of weeks off of doing critiques and tend to some things. Perhaps you haven't read it in awhile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i've yet to see him posted there however

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

I think that is becuase Seraph is the one doing most of the critiquing. She doesn't need her own input on her own horse...

I just took a look at him and he's lovely Seraph. We have a half saddlebred in our barn...and in his day, he won everything up to the AO jumper level. He was quite an athlete.

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

[*SERAPH*]

LEPEnterprises--

Thank you for your compliments on Seraph a.k.a.
Copper Chief! As anyone can obviously tell I am not trying to promote him at this time as people have access to VERY non-professional pics. However, a well-conformed horse is a well-conformed horse and people who have an eye for it will know what they are looking at when they view him.

I think what throws those who do know conformation, at times, is his rather "exotic" look.

I have studied sporthorse conformation indepthly for the last several years and I am quite confident in my judgement. However, I've also learned and am still learning that different disciplines desire subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences in conformational structure and I try to apply this when critiqueing horses within a specific discipline. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Harmony Farm]

I also agree that jumper traits are heritable. There is too much history out there to deny that.

As for conformation; although I would much rather have a horse with an ideal conformation, that doesn't count for much if they don't have the scope, carefulness, heart and desire of a jumper. And, unfortunately, you can't see that until you actually start jumping them.

My first horse was an OTTTB mare that I wanted to event and possibly do jumpers with. This is before I knew much about horses! Well, after I had purchased her, my vet told me that he didn't think she would make a good jumper because of her conformation; I.E. smallish hindquarters and hocks a little too straight. I was heartbroken, but I perservered. A few years later, people were coming up to me at shows and horse trials wanting to buy her because of her fantastic jump and scope! Makes you think, doesn't it. I mean, look at her jump! Click on the album "Rock N' Rhoda". Rock N' Rhoda (http://community.webshots.com/user/harmonyfarm)

Now, as far as breeding: We have a Dutch WB breeding farm specilizing mainly in dressage. I have not yet ventured into breeding Jumpers because I am afraid they won't sell until I have them under saddle jumping at age 4-5. I have one Dutch mare with mainly jumper bloodlines, but I must admit I am scared to breed to a horse known only for it's jumping abilities. She has great movement, so she is bred to a dressage sire. I have a friend with a wonderful colt by Indoctro (Dutch) that is coming 3 and still hasn't sold. And, he is VERY well bred. I have another friend with 2 coming 2 yr. olds by the Dutch jumper sire, Iroko. They are both beautiful, well bred, etc. Still not sold. It makes you think . . .

So, should I breed that wonderful mare above to a Jumper sire with her conformation faults? (She is Oldenburg approved) Good question! She has had 2 foals, but I was thinking about retiring her unless someone wanted to lease her as a broodmare.

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle." - Sir Winston Churchill

Harmony Farm

[This message was edited by Harmony Farm on Sep. 05, 2003 at 12:28 PM.]

[This message was edited by Harmony Farm on Sep. 05, 2003 at 12:30 PM.]

[Pocket Pony]

Seraph, how old is your stallion? Do you have pictures of him jumping? I'm sure we'd like to see that, given your description of his abilities.

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

[*SERAPH*]

Harmony Farm--

Yowsers! What a jumper! I would love to see a standing conformation photo of her and these "faults". As far as straight hind legs go, some people deliberately look for that in a jumper as they are mechanically very efficient. They make some of the best steeplechasers andjumpers.

You're right about heart and mentality. The whole package can be there but without those two success will not be likely!

I would definitely breed the mare and more for jumpers. However, I'd probably go for a jumper sire that had excellent movement with both excellent jumper and dressage lines. And if she truly is weak in the hind-end (again I'd like to see this), I'd also make sure the sire I chose had an excellent rear as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

batgirl QUOTE--

"Seraph, how old is your stallion? Do you have pictures of him jumping? I'm sure we'd like to see that, given your description of his abilities."

He is 4 and unfortunately I've never had a camera when he's done his "airs above the ground" routines! LOL! His athleticism was spectacular to behold and a little frightening as I was sure he was going to kill himself! He's only been working on the lunge for a few weeks so it might be awhile before I'll have pics of him freejumping. I'd really like to do it as soon as possible as I'm dying to see how he uses himself over them. (There aren't any jumps where we're at right now.) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

Seraph, I"m confused. Are you trying to tell us that a saddlebred is going to be the next best thing in jumping? I have to disagree. We had saddlebreds for many years. None of them were what I would consider to be a 'good' jumper. Yes some could jump 3' but the form was horrible. Some saddlebreds make adequate dressage horses, but the breed is not bred to do either jumping or dressage. Of course in every breed some individuals there are exceptions, but they are far and few between.

Of course I don't feel that a 3' jumper is anything to jump up and down about and claim success. Any horse that is over 15.2h should be able to jump at least 3'. It's when you hike the fences well up over 4' that the true scope of a horse begins to be challenged.

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to take such a monetary risk when the cards are stacked against them.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Krabby Patty anyone?

[milk warts]

Harmony Farm- some very interesting points. First, your mare is lovely, so extravagent with her front end. She looks like she is having a blast! In regards to the confo vs. heart comment... since, like you said, you can't tell about a horse's desire for it until they are started, it only makes sense to buy a youngster with conformation to suit the job.

I very firmly believe a horse's desire to jump (or lack thereof) under saddle is formed when the animal is started over fences. If it is a fun, low-key experience and the horse isn't overfaced, 99.5% of the time you'll end up with a horse who is happy to jump. The only stoppers we've ever had have been ones that we didn't start ourselves. Of course, there are bound to be some that just don't like it, but I really think most jumping problems are rider/trainer-made.

I recently schooled a horse that I hadn't ridden in a year. The last time I had been on him, no matter how well or badly I presented him to a fence, he would happily jump. Needless to say, after 6 months with an ammy who liked to chase him down to the fence then hang on his mouth at the base and over the fence, he's become a bit of a stopper. Has nothing to do with breeding, heart or lack thereof, just plain ol' bad riding.

*Seraph*- my bad, you are right. His back is too short. And we both agree that he is light behind. So that constitutes the "exceptional conformation" you continually brag about him having? And as far as him being "balanced"... well, I have a different opinion on that one, too.

And as far as overlooking external appearances for skeletal structure... ummmm, are you for real? Isn't one a function of the other? Or have I just been misled all these years? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[*SERAPH*]

SpongeBobSquarepants QUOTE--

"Seraph, I"m confused. Are you trying to tell us that a saddlebred is going to be the next best thing in jumping? I have to disagree. We had saddlebreds for many years. None of them were what I would consider to be a 'good' jumper. Yes some could jump 3' but the form was horrible. Some saddlebreds make adequate dressage horses, but the breed is not bred to do either jumping or dressage. Of course in every breed some individuals there are exceptions, but they are far and few between."

Originally, ASB's were bred to be all-around horses that could do a number of things very well. I'm not necessarily saying that they will be the next big thing in jumping. It is quite difficult to find an ASB that is built conformationally suitable these days for high level jumpers or dressage. People have generally been breeding for extremes (which is anthesis for sporthorse excellence). Many ASB's are fine-boned, with unbelievably long backs, low backs, necks that are too long and swan-like, cannons and pasterns that are too long, table-top croups, et. Rather like what happened to the Arabian in this country. (Nowadays, many Arab breeders are now breeding horses with excellent sporthorse conformation and excellent performance--they stand in marked contrast to the Arabs that are bred for the gaited and halter shows!)

Same can be said for the ASB. If one looks for the much older (and far less fadish) bloodlines one can find a number of ASB's appropriate for the higher levels of sporthorse competition. They are growing in popularity in a smaller segment of the sporthorse scene but growing nevertheless.

I feel that the ASB is vastly underrated as a competition animal and feel that over time, knowledgeable breeding for proper sporthorse conformation will result in fabulous sporthorses. They also cross extremely well with warmbloods and with the baroque breeds.

And I agree; even a horse with not the best conformation should be able to clear 3 feet no problem.

"I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to take such a monetary risk when the cards are stacked against them."

I am not alone in my beliefs; and for some strange reason revel in ramming my head into brick walls, I suppose. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The ASB took me (a die-hard Thoroughbred lover) and won me completely over. What can I say? I love the ASB (sporthorse type). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And I really think all horses can be considered a monetary risk!

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Harmony Farm]

MilkWarts - Thank you for the nice comments. This mare surprised everyone!

Good points also - I totally agree with the bad riding thing. My gelding, PJ, has never stopped at a jump because jumping has been a positive experience for him with an experienced professional. He truly loves it! He will go over or through anything because of his love of jumping and trust for his rider. A bad rider can surely take the fun out of jumping for any horse!

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle." - Sir Winston Churchill

Harmony Farm

[This message was edited by Harmony Farm on Sep. 05, 2003 at 01:21 PM.]

[*SERAPH*]

milkwarts--

Okay, first you said his back was too long, now you say it's too short! Which is it?

And I said that I felt he was NOT light behind. Nor did he have an enormous hind-end. So we are not in agreement there.

I also said he was not perfect.

I honestly do not see how acknowledging his good conformational points, especially when he is being negatively critiqued (a critique I did not ask for BTW), makes me 'a continuous braggart' of him. Actually, I did not bring him or his conformation up in the first place--YOU did. And without rhyme or reason began to disect his conformation in a very negative fashion. Has it not occurred to you how utterly rude that is?

My stallion wasn't the topic of this thread nor did I try to make him the topic of this thread. But if questions are asked, I answer them. Quite frankly, I really do not care what you think of my stallion. I think I've made that obvious.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[milk warts]

*Seraph*,

Why are you calling *me* utterly rude? I would think that curiousgeorge's post was far more rude and certainly more off-topic. I was simply piggy-backing off another poster's comments regarding your horse, and pointing out why *I* didn't think ASB's were exceptional jumper prospects. I apologize if using your horse as an example was offensive, but I thought it would be an interesting comparison since you are touting him as a top jumper prospect. It was meant to be educational, and was certainly not off-topic.

[Lianne]

SpongeBobSquarePants - I'm sorry, this is slightly off topic, but I have to say this. I have been following SERAPH's posts, and nowhere did she even HINT at Saddlebreds being the next big thing in the jumper ring. Not even CLOSE.
But you know what? Stonewall's Little General, a registered ASB, was a champion Puissance horse in his day, clearing over 6 feet in competition. If you look at older pics of Saddlebreds, they were taller, bigger boned and bred for versatility, just like SERAPH said. In recent years, however, the trend has been to breed peacocks for the show ring, hence the breed's nickname. So, unfortunately, their athletic talent and more substantial build was bred out of them in favour of long, upright necks, high knee action, flat croups, etc...

But a few people are trying to bring back the Saddlebreds of old, the versatile, intelligent, athletic breed that we know they can be, underneath all the fancy shoeing and tailsets.

You owned Saddlebreds for many years, you say? Were they show stock, or did you breed them and train them to jump? If you occasionally popped them over small fences as adults "just to see", well DUH of course they would have ugly form. Most horses have to LEARN to use themselves over fences and to have nice form. I've seen KWPN warmbloods in their first free-jumping sessions. Their "form" was enough to make you gag. But that's normal, it was their first time!

Just because most people don't think of Saddlebreds as the natural choice for the jumpers, doesn't mean a lot of them couldn't do it. But we need to start breeding them selectively if we want to develop a more "sporthorse" type, that is what SERAPH is saying.

[Tiki]

If you want a sporthorse, then buy or breed a sporthorse! And Seraph DID say something to the effect on about 8 pages worth of another forum that she WAS going to set the world on fire with this horse in the jumping arena. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[MdLib]

I have a feeling I shouldn't belabor this, oh, well...

An athletic Saddlebred is beautiful, here's a link with some of the greats, SkyWatch is almost on the bottom (take a look at Belle Beach while scrolling down.) http://www.asha.net/History/History%201900.html

Anyway, these are animals with substance, and I can see the attraction of trying to use their progeny in developing sporthorse lines. The Saddlebred stallion being discussed here is not of this conformational quality. Whether he has talent to jump and pass whatever inspections remains to be seen.

Sorry this topic has degenerated.

[*SERAPH*]

This really grows wearisome.

Milk Warts--

You're right; CuriousGeorge was rude and deliberately snide--just as you have been.
I've never touted him as a top jumper prospect. I said my goal with him was to do upper level jumping.

Tiki--

I never said I was going to 'set the world on fire' in the jumpers with him. I said my goal with him was to do upper level jumping.

MdLib--

It always seems to degenerate whenever someone (not your fault) gets on the topic of my stallion or ASB's in general. People like different physical types in horses. If my guy isn't your type, no big deal. We don't have to like and appreciate the same things.

I do appreciate the fact that you know something about ASB's! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lianne--

Thanks for trying to clarify. Sometimes it doesn't matter how many times I repeat myself! It seems that some people remember what they want to remember or completely take another thing said out of context.

For the last time, I do not care if my stallion is not someone's cup 'o tea. He is what I like, and I am not the only one who feels that way.

Now, can we move on to something else?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Tiki]

I said before and I'll say it again. You have a very, very nice stallion FOR WHAT HE IS BRED FOR. You are incredible defensive about him when very knowledgeable people comment on him. He will probably be much happier in the discipline for which he was bred - then you can listen to compliments galore instead of having to defend yourself every time you turn around. Just think about it! He's a nice horse - this isn't his 'bag'.

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[FairWeather]

out of curiosity, why breed something that doesnt "set the world on fire"?

Too many nice horses getting killed for that line of thought IMHO.

[Lianne]

Warning - you're starting a whole new thread. Why not post that specific topic as a new discussion, FairWeather?

You know, there are a lot of us responsible people out there who would never toss a horse into an auction pen or sell it for meat if it didn't sell. Don't blame us for the thoughtless breeding adventures of others. Just because some of us can't afford to buy 4000$ semen doses, doesn't mean we don't breed for quality.

[*SERAPH*]

Tiki--

I'm glad you think he's a nice horse. ASB's can do and are doing much more than gaited disciplines. Gaiting within the ASB is not necessarily inherited. Some will naturally pick their knees and hocks up higher than other breeds of horses but traveling in the gaiting style is mostly influenced by training in extensive equipement and inhanced by the wearing of built up shoes. My stallion does not generally move with a great deal of knee and hock action. When I can provide better pictures of his general movement you can be sure I will post them.

And though people have not seen near as many examples, saying ASB's are only capable of Saddleseat showing is like saying Thoroughbreds are only cut out to race or Quarter Horses are only bred to cut cows and Arabians are only capable of endurance racing.

Since my stallion is a forward moving horse and who has sporthorse movement, he is far more likely to be happy doing what he naturally does.

If only you could see ASB's untrained and free in the pasture to move as most of them naturally do! I think you would be quite suprised. I look at 130 ASB horses on a daily basis as that is the number of them on the farm.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

Fairweather--

Why did the Dutch start crossing Gelderlanders with Thoroughbreds and other Warmbloods?

Why did the French start crossing the French Trotter with Thoroughbreds, Anglo-Arabs, Anglo-Normans, and Arabs?

Thing is, American breeders did exactly that in producing the American Saddlebred. Though certainly most breeders have left behind breeding the kinds of ASB's we had 50 years ago, the old style is still around and retrievable. And there is rising interest and breeding of the old types for sporthorses and crossing them with warmbloods within a growing segment of sporthorse enthusiastes. You may not see it now, but they are becoming more and more popular with people.

My stallion does set my world on fire as well as like-minded people. And he might even do it for you if you got the chance to meet him in person! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In time, we will see whether or not he will set other people's worlds on fire because of performance.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[FairWeather]

I'm simply pointing out that you stated that you bought the horse for a high-level jumper, then stated above:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I never said I was going to 'set the world on fire' in the jumpers with him. I said my goal with him was to do upper level jumping <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question still goes unanswered--if you have no plans of "setting the world on fire" why breed?

[*SERAPH*]

Fairweather--

Well, just like anyone who owns a stallion they want to promote in a certain discipline(s)--be it Dutch Warmblood, Andalusian, Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse,et--I certainly HOPE to set the world on fire. But there are no guarantees.

So, to answer your question, I fully intend to try.

But just so you know, I am not breeding him right now. I am focused on bringing him along performance wise. (He would, however, be worth breeding simply because he has very rare old lines that certain people care to keep around.)

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

http://community.webshots.com/user/copperchief

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

Seraph, I know you already consider me snide and rude. I was going to leave this alone, but you have stated too many inaccuracies for me to do that.

"Look of Eagles" translates to a bold and confident demeanor; and if, for some reason, we were looking at a possible stallion prospect for high-level jumpers we would definitely want to see this air about him."

Speaking in the "we" case tends to annoy people who don't agree with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How a young horse addresses problems on the ground has little to no relevance to how he will react when presented with a fence. In fact, the ones that have a little spook in them under saddle are often more careful jumpers. I have never seen ground manners or lack thereof correlate positively or negatively with talent over fences.

"However, a well-conformed horse is a well-conformed horse and people who have an eye for it will know what they are looking at when they view him. I think what throws those who do know conformation, at times, is his rather "exotic" look. I have studied sporthorse conformation indepthly for the last several years and I am quite confident in my judgement."

Seraph, I have an eye for what I consider a well-conformed horse. Since I have already asked for your qualifications and you were not willing to share them, I don't feel the need to post a resume. Suffice it to say, however, that I am confident in my eye and what it perceives about your "stallion". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I also have more than a passing familiarity with saddlebreds, so the so-called exotic look is not a problem for me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Obviously you are confident in your opinions about your own horse; you purchased him! I remain curious about the sources of your conformation education, since you have one oft-relied on source and don't seem to ever consult others.

"Nowadays, many Arab breeders are now breeding horses with excellent sporthorse conformation and excellent performance--they stand in marked contrast to the Arabs that are bred for the gaited and halter shows!"

The Arabian is not a gaited breed. At breed shows they may be shown in saddleseat tack; however they do not perform gaits other than the walk, trot, and canter.

Lianne said: "Most horses have to LEARN to use themselves over fences and to have nice form."

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am reminded of the history of one KWPN mare who went on to become THE hunter of the 90s. Her trainer saw her jump one of her first crossrails ever in the style that made her famous: back round, knees to eyeballs, and he bought her on the spot for his client. The good ones don't have to be taught to jump in good form. Quite frankly, I'd rather buy one that jumps in good form on its own and does not require gymnastic drill after gymnastic drill.

Seraph, you would impress me TONS if you pulled the horse's mane.

[*SERAPH*]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[fleur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

did you even read CG's post? sounds like most of it was right on the mark... by the way I agree that if you ever plan to promote your stallion, you should get some better pictures.

personally, i'd geld him http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[*SERAPH*]

CuriousGeorge--

you would probably be more at home if you were to join Milk Warts on THE TACK ROOM board. For anyone whose interested, here is the site address:

http://pub179.ezboard.com/bthetackroom17816

Exhibitor's Party is the heading to click on, and TOB is the insightful topic to look under. If you scroll down to the 17th posting, that is where the barrel of laughs really starts.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

Thank you, Fleur. We don't always agree http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but I appreciate your comment.

[fleur]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oldenburg Mom]

(ahem)

Hey guys. Do I have to start talking about chocolate, hmmmm?

You folks are trying to help me decide about the jumper baby I'm thinking about, not whether Seraph has a nice stallion or not or if her views are cr@p or not ... or just whatever.

The breeding on this boy really is extraordinary. I just don't see the "loff" of jumping that many have described. But, as milk warts said:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But because we have very carefully started her, I think she finds it interesting, maybe kind of fun, and certainly more interesting than flatting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MW, how old is your girl? When did you first free jump her?

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Oldenburg Mom]

BTW, the descriptions you all give of heart and character seem to fit Duc to a T!

I am surprised by this as his breeding is dressage.

Go figgure. Maybe there's a jumper lurking inside ...

The adventure has begun...
KT

P.S. In case you were wondering, the more people I get to know, the more I loff my horsie.

[Tiki]

Seraph, where on earth was it that you think I said all ASB's are gaited? I spent time around them when I was a kid and am very familiar with the breed. I think they are very nice horses - for their own discipline. They were bred for comfort and comfortable gaits (that does not mean gaited) for plantation work, pleasure and park horses. They also make excellent carriage horses.

Your horse does NOT have sporthorse movement, period! If you want to bring him along performance wise, try combined driving. He may be good at that.

You also said, and have said before, that he has wonderful, old, rare bloodlines. Usually those bloodlines are rare for a reason - they weren't very good or people didn't like them. If they were good bloodlines they would have been perpetuated. You can trace TB and WB and Arab bloodlines back a loooooonnnnggggg way. You do occassionally see new lines or combinations that people try. When they don't work out, they don't use those lines again. That's because THEY DON'T WORK! If they do, you don't lose the line and see it become rare!!

You asked some very, very, very basic questions on an older thread about training and stallion handling, and you seem very young. This leads me to believe you are a rank beginner. I second Curious George - where did you get all this wonderful education that you refuse to disclose? You don't seem to know anything about jumping from your comments, but keep pushing it down everybody's throat that this horse is going to be a world class jumper. When people who DO have world class jumpers try to give you advise you get defensive. Try listening to what people are telling you and stop trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole.

Now let's talk about some cappuccino mocha supreme. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!! My favorite desert is mocha cakes - you know, those little jelly roll slices with the mocha frosting with a cherry on top? I don't like Starbuck's coffee, but I LOVE their Latte Grandes (or whatever their supersize is).

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[*SERAPH*]

Tiki--

Your opinion has been duly noted.

Oldenburg Mom--

Please let me know how it goes with your possible prospect! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
SpongeBobSquarePants - I'm sorry, this is slightly off topic, but I have to say this. I have been following SERAPH's posts, and nowhere did she even HINT at Saddlebreds being the next big thing in the jumper ring. Not even CLOSE.
But you know what? Stonewall's Little General, a registered ASB, was a champion Puissance horse in his day, clearing over 6 feet in competition. If you look at older pics of Saddlebreds, they were taller, bigger boned and bred for versatility, just like SERAPH said. In recent years, however, the trend has been to breed peacocks for the show ring, hence the breed's nickname. So, unfortunately, their athletic talent and more substantial build was bred out of them in favour of long, upright necks, high knee action, flat croups, etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then my dear you haven't exactly been following Seraph's threads about her horse, have you?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You owned Saddlebreds for many years, you say? Were they show stock, or did you breed them and train them to jump? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Egads no. Saddlebreds to not make jumpers. My opinion. Of course, as I said, some freak of the breed might be good at it, but the majority are not. Our's were show and pleasure stock.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If you occasionally popped them over small fences as adults "just to see", well DUH of course they would have ugly form. Most horses have to LEARN to use themselves over fences and to have nice form. I've seen KWPN warmbloods in their first free-jumping sessions. Their "form" was enough to make you gag. But that's normal, it was their first time! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I disagree. having been to MANY stallion approvals, I can tell you, if a horse has talent for jumping, they learn very quickly how to do things correctly, each time they go through the chute. I've seen mares that have only freejumped twice at home at 3 feet jump up to 4'6" in mare performance tests, because they are talented for it and their natural ability takes over.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Just because most people don't think of Saddlebreds as the natural choice for the jumpers, doesn't mean a lot of them couldn't do it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, but I wouldnt put any money into it. 1 in a 1000 that might be able to jump over 3' just doesn't stack the deck in my favor.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But we need to start breeding them selectively if we want to develop a more "sporthorse" type, that is what SERAPH is saying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Years. And you'll never get a jump up on the warmbloods. They have a hundred years of selective breeding, through culling the not-so-good horses. As for ASB's, any idiot can breed one and get papers, just like any other breed in North America that isn't related to the WB breeds.

Krabby Patty anyone?

I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, just like anyone who owns a stallion they want to promote in a certain discipline(s)--be it Dutch Warmblood, Andalusian, Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse,et--I certainly HOPE to set the world on fire. But there are no guarantees.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I happen to know a well respected Andalusian breeder who has very high standards and expectations from her colts. In the last 10 years, not a single colt has remained intact. She has standards and doesn't resort to "HOPE" that her colts will excell and improve the breed.

No, there certianly are no guarantees. You breed the best to the best, hope for the best and GELD the rest!

Seraph, I am sure you love your horse. We don't have to go gaga or head over heels in the same manner. You brought him to our attention, brought him to us as a jumper prospect, dressage, prospect, sport horse, etc. There are many very knowledgable people on these forums who have been extremely polite in their responses to you about this young saddlebred you own.

Do you understand what it means for a warmblood to pass his 100 day testing as a stallion to be approved? Do you realize that a jumper with excellent conformation and a seriously respectable record of performance at the upper levels of show jumping is more than likely 12 - 14 years old before being considered as a horse to breed to?

Go love on your horse and stop trying to convince people with much better options to breed to your 4 year old ASB. Better yet, convince other Saddlebred breeders that he is the second coming.

He looks like he could become a nice horse. Give him a chance and stop trying to promote him like a used car salesman.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[*SERAPH*]

everythingbutwings--

You know what I find remarkable? If you look on the conformation thread on Horse Care the majority if not all of the horses that I have critiqued has been above and beyond accurate. Now, either their owners are completely ignorant, or I am correct as they have overwhelmingly agreed with my assessments.

Assuming that the owners and I are correct, it truly would make NO sense for me to go and choose a horse for myself that did not measure up (conformation wise) to my intentions for him.

I am not trying to promote him at this time no matter how many times people want to repeat this assertion. However, I know what I have and will continue forward.

Thank you for your opinion.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

"Now, either their owners are completely ignorant, or I am correct as they have overwhelmingly agreed with my assessments."

The owners haven't all agreed with you. However, when someone offers their opinion about your horse, even if you disagree, it would be rude IMO to express this disagreement after the person took the time to offer their opinion. I'm sure this is what some of those owners felt. The thread was not "Seraph, please critique my horse!"; it was a general critique thread with other participants. I'm sure some of those owners posted to get feedback other than yours and took yours with a grain of salt. I'm sorry but I find it hilariously, riotously funny that you are using the conformation critique thread as evidence for your superior knowledge of conformation. On that thread, you have only demonstrated that you can regurgitate information from your one favored source. That's called biased research.

Now, you're going to say this is my snide side coming out again, but if you get really lucky, a country vet in South Carolina might take pity on your situation and give you a discount on two surgical procedures you apparently have a market for... the ovariohysterectomy of your GSD bitch, and the gelding of your horse. I am indepthly familiar with both procedures and highly recommend them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[*SERAPH*]

CuriousGeorge--

Well be brave, my dear, and post your opinion on the conformation thread. Let the people there decide.

BTW, I'd be more than happy to critique your horse. Please feel free to post it on the conformation forum. Unlike you, I will be fair.

Or perhaps it's now time to scurry back to the man in the big yellow hat.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

Did it ever occur to you, Seraph, that for someone who has made 41 posts, CuriousGeorge knows a lot about this bb, the key players, and how things work around here? I'll let you think about that for awhile. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I do not currently own a horse. Again, since YOU don't feel the need to share your educational background, I don't feel the need to post a CV for you or detail my prior experiences.

I do not understand the big yellow hat reference. I am curious though; what is a "Valkryie"? I think maybe you mean valkyrie but I'm not sure.

I find it amusing that you think I am "unfair" because I point out your areas of weakness. No one likes that, I suppose, but them's the breaks when you pose as an expert.

[*SERAPH*]

CuriousGeorge--

I think I've made it fairly apparent that I could care less what you or MOST other people think regardless of any connections you may or may not have. You wouldn't be trying to intimidate me, would you?

You're obviously a younger individual if you don't understand the 'man in the big yellow hat' reference.

Dictionaries are useful.

"Valkyrie"--any of the maidens of Odin who conduct the souls of heroes slain in battle to Vahalla and wait on them there.

That is found in Webster's New World Dictionary. And yes, I mean't "Valkryie".

Do you have anything of ANY relevance to say?

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

I'm sorry, you're in your 40's. Don't have a clue why you don't understand 'the man in the yellow hat'.

I'm impressed by real people; not by people who hide. I don't hide. Any mistake I make is there for all to see. I expect no less from anyone else.

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkryie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

Thanks; corrected the spelling of "valkyrie".

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[Everythingbutwings]

From Google.com <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did you mean: Valkyrie
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seraph, give it a rest. I have learned more from watching the well respected Sport Horse breeders here for the past several years, on line and in person, than you will convince me of your knowledge by pontificating on one topic on the Horse Care forum.

You are really running this into the ground. Go make your horse's life happier by being in it. Participate. School him, take him to competitions, prove your point in the only way that will eventually matter. Train him to jump (or do upper level dressage, whatever) and find the right job for him.

I hope you will keep in your mind that his perfect job might not be what you are dreaming of. That won't make him a less desirable horse for a true horse lover to own.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[*SERAPH*]

I'm running this into the ground !................ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[cheeky_appy]

Not being the most confident person in jumping, I just require a horse who is honest and happy to do the job at hand. I still need him to help me learn distances and striding, and help me to learn to help him at different types of obstacles. I love to event and do dressage and to show jump. I don't look at pedigree or breed or anything. I just look at the horse as an individual and thats that. Who can honestly tell me that Milton was one of the greatest jumpers in the world based just on his pedigree, or his looks, or conformation? Who remembers him mostly for his awesome personality and the way he approached those jumps honestly and happily with spunk and style? Same goes for Big Ben, and Japeloup and Gem Twist.
Coming from New Zealand, we are always striving to improve our sporthorse breeding programmes etc, but some horses go through the sales rings with the most impressive pedigrees and conformation, but either they are dirty in their nature, not honest or will just never make it as a jumper.
Another thing that feeds into this which I feel very strongly about is the way that the horse is trained. It could have had the worst background through human fault. Yet even the less "promising horse" pedigree and conformationally wise could have had a great training background and show more promise than that which is "perfect."
Hope you can see where I am going here.
And as for the snarkiness going on here, I do get concerned as it doesnt really seem necessary to the thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aim 2003/2004: National High points for appaloosa show jumping!

[*SERAPH*]

cheeky_appy--

I am the owner of the ASB stallion discussed on this thread; and I feel as if I have been through the gamut, myself.

I'm sorry if this distresses you.

You are correct on your observations. If only everyone else felt this way! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

everythingbutwings--

This conversation begins to really bore me.

everythingbutwings QUOTE:

"Seraph, give it a rest. I have learned more from watching the well respected Sport Horse breeders here for the past several years, on line and in person, than you will convince me of your knowledge by pontificating on one topic on the Horse Care forum."

Well, ain't that grand. As of this moment 11,343 people have viewed that particular thread. Perhaps it's a little more accurate than you want to give it credit for???

Goodnight, Buh Bye, and you guys have fun clawing your eyeballs out! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[cheeky_appy]

I am not distressed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
I do like to hear people's opinions on matters, as I gave mine, and if someone doesnt agree with someone, then they should be entitled to say so, but when there is a lot of sarcasm behind the comments then it isnt quite the same.
And pulling things apart to find any excuse to jump on people bugs me too.
Sorry if I am acting like a boring old kiwi fart (teehee sorry I make myself laugh) but I am not on anyones side here, only on my own http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aim 2003/2004: National High points for appaloosa show jumping!

[starboard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
CuriousGeorge--

You're obviously a younger individual if you don't understand the 'man in the big yellow hat' reference.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont get it either--how does one look this up in a dictionary, cuz i wanna know http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif?

[fleur]

come on guys, man in the big yellow hat, curious george's caretaker? hmm? beuler? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*Seraph*, this is an honest question--do you understand the crisis of extra animals in this world? it is one thing to have your own very very nice mare and breed her to make your next horse (although there are thousands out there in need of homes, of all ages) but it is entirely different to keep a stallion for your own purposes, if that's what you are planning. backyard breeders (and I don't hesitate to call you one, until you provide more experience than an internet bulletin board thread, regardless of how many people have seen it or agreed with you http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif ) produce so many horses every year that eventually find their end in a pasture without food or water, or in the chute at the slaughterhouse. what makes you think you are qualified to produce babies that will be worth something to someone and won't just add to the mess of homeless horses in this country? honestly. and don't say "because people agree with my conformation analyses of their horses".

[HFSH]

So I like milk chocolate the best. I'm just not that into dark chocolate.

I do like double chocolate brownies, right out of the oven. Yummy. Chocolate milk too. Yummier.

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

[*SERAPH*]

Cheesecake...yum! My very favorite!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[*SERAPH*]

fleur--

Though the question you posed is a valid question, I am not breeding him right now. Have no desire too. Mainly because I am focused on performance; not on taking pics of him in hand and looking like a million bucks so that I can promote him.

So actually, I'm not any kind of breeder, backyard or otherwise. He's just an intact male.

Now, can we finally leave it at that as I've fully explained myself only, oh, a million times or so.

(And I guess some of you "clever" little monkeys out there realize that I know a few of you are trolls?) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

Valkyrie Warrior Woman-- Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

I am not a troll.

I am an alter. There's a difference. Trolls ask things like what do you think about approved helmets, tack nosebands, or Colin, or martingales, or Musical_Jumper. Trolls post only to stir things up, and then disappear.

I am a regular poster on this board. I use the alter name only to communicate things that I do not wish to be associated with my regular posting persona. Quite frankly, this is a common practice here and it is generally understood and accepted.

Fleur asked a very valid question. If you aren't breeding the horse now, and you are wishy-washy about your plans to do so in the future, why don't you geld him? Oh, right, the rare old bloodlines that probably should be allowed to die a natural death. In all honesty, Seraph, I continue to badger you because I am genuinely concerned for the animals that are under your care. That's all. I am not being snide. If I make you think, then I'm satisfied. If I in some small way make you think about invoking change in how you perceive and treat animals, then that's even better.

Oh yeah, how can you "focus on performance" when the horse is barely halter broken, and you cannot afford a trainer to help you with his performance career? You were asking some very rudimentary questions about lunging - please consider your own safety if and when you attempt to back this horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

[nhwr]

Two observations here:

Every thread Seraph posts on become all about her and her horse.

Intact male horses have a difficult life in the modern world. Their horomonal makeup drives them towards behaviour that creates anxiety for themselves and those around them. If breeding doesn't interest you, you should give serious consideration to gelding your horse.

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As of this moment 11,343 people have viewed that particular thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People just LOVE a soap opera. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[The Great Gazoo]

Seraph, you are handling these very unpleasant comments extremely well. You have every right to defend your pride and joy! I also have not read a single comment from you that leads me to think that you are promoting him or trying to encourage mare owners on this bb to breed to him.

However I question why you insist on keeping him a stallon. Take a look at the stallions out there. I can breed to nearly any stallion in the world today. Thousands of extremely well bred stallions of outstanding, proven performance bloodlines are out there competing at the highest levels. If your stallion turns out to be a great jumper, I still would never breed to him.

Also I do recall you seeking advice a few weeks ago. You do not seem qualified to train or stand a stallion. You could have a lot of fun with him but keeping him a stallion simply because you want to is just not right.

Good Luck
P.S Seriously think about WHY this horse NEEDS to be a stallion.

[Tiki]

Weeeelllllll, she calls herself a 'Proud Member of the Thread Killers Clique' and that's about the only really true statement I've ever heard from her!

Now, how about some mocha cakes and coffee!!!

Tranquility Farm (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com)
We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

[MdLib]

Seraph, you have received lots of honest advice, and your disregard for the opinions you sought when asking on the Dressage Forum if your stallion was a "dressage prospect" leave me unsympathetic. He is not sporthorse stallion material, not even if he makes it to "upper level jumpers." You say several times that you plan on breeding him. The moment you decided this, his promotion as a future sire starts. The publicity here has not been good for stallion or owner, and folks have long memories.

I strongly disagree with your conformation advice, but have not the time to argue; I beat my head against the wall plenty in real life. I feel this is a common sentiment; it's just not worth it to argue as you selectively ignore anyone who questions or disagrees, or folks would jump on your Conformation critique thread. How do you know your critiques are "above and beyond accurate?" You need to hear that from someone who has more experience than you do.

All I can do is wish you luck, hope you find the sense to not breed him, and the wisdom to consider the opinions you asked from those with actual sporthorse competition/breeding/approval experience.

Off to ride. Over and out.

[chronic]

I am sorry, but I HAVE to comment here. I hadn't read these threads and browsed through them and looked at that copper stallion. THIS she says looks like Baloubet????? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Where can I find the kind of glasses she has to make my arthritic welsh pony look like Royal Kaliber????

[Lianne]

Knock it off, people.

SERAPH, if there's one thing I agree with in terms of what your critiquers have said, it's that you SHOULD go out and free-jump your stallion. Find someone to trailer you to a barn with an arena and jumps, and jump him. I am as confident as you are that he will soar over the fences.
I am still kicking myslf for not having pictures of my last free-jumping session with my mare. A registered Saddlebred, she stands a hair under 15.2 hh. She soared over a WIDE oxer that I measured (not guesstimated) at 4'2 inches. With room to spare. With her knees tucked under her chin and her tail flagged (there had to be SOME indication of her breed there.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gee, somehow I guess I ended up with that 1 in a 1000 Saddlebreds that can clear over 3 feet! Golly gee whiz, what are the odds? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

I do believe that the post about any horse jumping 3' was meant to be more than one jump in a row http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Everyone SHOULD love their horse. I loved my Chincoteague pony from the moment I saw her at the Pony Auction to the day I had her put down at age 31. That love did not make me blind as a bat to her faults and limits. I certianly never held her up as the next best thing to Rox Dene, Touch of Class or Bally Cor.

Not even as an April Fool's joke or a Halloween prank.

Seraph's horse if fortunate to have an owner who adores him.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[wanderlust]

Mr. MT was kind enough to bring me home a full-sized Scharffen Berger semi-sweet mocha bar last weekend. It was $4.50 worth of complete bliss.

[carosello]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:


People just LOVE a soap opera. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

_Friendship is Love without his wings_
-Lord Byron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Chocolate chip cookies anyone? sorry OM, another fine thread gone astray. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Calling a Spade a Spade]

This thread (below) is an embarrassment. Milk Warts and Co, shame on you.

http://pub179.ezboard.com/fthetackroom17816frm13.showMessageRange?topicID=96 0.topic&start=1&stop=20

[cheeky_appy]

Totally different board there, and not for under 18's so it doesnt need general airing over here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aim 2003/2004: National High points for appaloosa show jumping!

[Cartier]

Hey Calling A Spade A Spade,

I read a bit of the linked thread, http://pub179.ezboard.com/fthetackroom17816frm13.showMessageRange?topicID=96 0.topic&start=1&stop=20 I have a few questions: who is the host of the board… and why did you call it to our attention? I only read the first page or so... but it goes on for 8 pages... it's not that interesting... could you just tell us what's up?

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 08, 2003 at 07:18 AM.]

[Everythingbutwings]

That topic, like this one, veered from the original question.

This thread started out with a wide range of responses and additional questions from knowledgable people. Here are a couple of links to research/data that support the heritability of jumping, at least through the sire side.

Part of Birdsall's article (http://www3.sympatico.ca/pete.birdsall/nearco.htm)

More from Birdsall (Blenheim) (http://www3.sympatico.ca/pete.birdsall/blen.htm)

Thoroughbred Sires of Horses that Jump (http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/Jumpsiresindex.html)

8th in the series, French Dollar Line (http://www3.sympatico.ca/pete.birdsall/dollar.htm)

Thoroughbred Influence on the Competition Horse (http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/TB_Influence/body_tb_influence.htm)



I don't know if such data has been collected on other specific breeds but am still investigating. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hopefully, this information will be available soon through the efforts of the PHR and USAEq. Got to love the internet.

The ASB is a beautiful and versital breed that has been developed over the years towards a particular goal. That is what the warmblood registries are doing, selective breeding with emphasis on performance towards a certian goal. ASB History (http://www.zyworld.com/americansaddlebred/arthistory.htm)

From the link above:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Despite many notable exceptions, the trend for this remarkable animal became the show ring. He was dubbed “peacock of the show ring”, which he undoubtedly is, but this is used by detractors of the American Saddle Horse to indicate he is good for little else.
People who knew and loved Saddlebreds knew this was wrong, but little was done about it until 1957, when Miss Irene Zane, formerly manager of Sunnyslope Farm, Scott City, Kans., one of the great show stables of the nation, founded the American Saddlebred Pleasure Horse Association.
While most admirers of the Saddlebred love the beautiful show horses, they are now seeking to re-establish his worth as a pleasure and using animal. After all, that is how the breed was developed.

Other breeds, notably the Tennessee Walking Horse, which evolved essentially from Saddlebreds and Standardbreds, Morgans, and Arabians try to emulate them in the show ring, but none can compare.
On the other hand, American Saddlebreds have been successful jumpers, cow horses, and if conditioned and trained properly, they are capable of almost any task they are asked to perform.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Sep. 08, 2003 at 07:29 AM.]

[Twinkletozzz]

I'm disappointed this thread (interesting to me because I focus on jumpers) that started out so well has degenerated to the trite and mundane. Can we get back to it or will somebody please put this thread out of its misery?

Daedalus, Able George, Flirting Cove http://community.webshots.com/user/twinkletozzz

[jrmasm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I do believe that the post about any horse jumping 3' was meant to be more than one jump in a row
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Thanks Wings, you made my week!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As Miss Maam says "Mommy isn't always a pain in the a**"

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Top Eventing Sires of International Horses 1990-1995 - By Paul Van Oers, Dirk Zagers and Chris Van Dam of B.C.M., The Netherlands

(Taken from - "Stallions - The Leading Competition Sires of Great Britain and Ireland" by Hugh McMahon)

Breeding horses specifically for eventing has less tradition than breeding jumping or dressage horses. In the past the most important aspect was the horse's ability to jump over fences, walls, hedges and other such natural obstacles. With a few exceptions, nobody was interested in the sires or breeding history of their horses. Therefore, it was always a difficult job to identify the heredity of event horses. However, in the last few years event riders have become more interested in genetics and information concerning the origin of their horses.

In total 2183 horses have accumulated points over the last years. Of these horses, 72.2% of the first 1000, 72.7% of the first 500 horses and 82.8% of the first 250 horses have been identified.



Breeders
The most well-known and successful breeder of event horses is undoubtedly Sam Barr from Hartpury, Gloucestershire (Great Britain). Dozens of eventing horses with the prefix Welton have competed and still compete at international level. And not even all horses bred by Sam Barr bear the prefix Welton. At the 1995 European Champions in Pratoni del Vivaro, Italy, three horses bred by Sam Barr competed. Among them, the European Champion Welton Romance.
Welton Louis (in third place in the series ranking) and Welton Crakerjack (in sixth place) are both sired by Welton Gameful (v. Game Prince) and bred by Sam Barr. Welton Gameful is also the sire of Sam Barr's ride at the 1984 Burghley Horse Trials, where he made his debut at the age of 64.
Welton Louis has eight offspring in the rankings and his place, in large part, is due to the 1995 European Champion Welton Romance, Welton Fairgame and Welton Chit Chat. The latter won Bramham in 1991 with Ginny Leng and with Santiago Centenera placed at the 1993 European Champions in Achselschwang, Germany. More than 20 event horses sired by the bav Welton Louis compete or have competeo in international three-day events.
Welton Crackerjack with seven progeny in the rankings takes sixth place with such well known offspring as Welton Houdini, Just A Cracker and Welton Comedian. The most successful descendants are Welton Houdini (winner of the 1993 Badminton Horse Trials with Ginny Leng) and Welton Greylog (winner of the 1991 Burghley Horse Trials with Mark Todd).
Welton Gazelle, the dam of Marie Christine Duroy's ride Summersono. Brittany Ferries, who took 14th place at the 1994 World Equestrian Games (and Badminto ighth at n in 1995), is sired b Welton Gameful too.

Countries
Great Britain and Ireland provide more than 40% of the sires in the top 100. English sires Nickel King xx (first place), sire of King William, Welton Louis (third), Garnered xx (fifth), sire of Get Smart xx, Welton Crackerjack (sixth), Just A Monarch xx (seventh), sire of Just An Ace, and Grey Ghost xx (tenth) dominate the top ten of eventing sires.
Of the top ten four non-British sires, the Polish Thoroughbred Polonez, sire of Piia Pantsu's ride Cyna, takes second place. New Zealand's Mr Leigh (fourth) is sire of World Champion Vaughn Jefferis' Bounce, while Domherr owes his eighth place to Olympic champion Matt Ryan's 18-year-old Kibah Tic Toe, runner-up at Badminton in 1995. In ninth place we find a rarely seen country of origin - South Africa. Hawaii xx, sire of Dorothy Trapp's silver medallist at the Hague, Molokai, who was exproted to the USA later.
Ireland is not represented in the top 10 but with sires like Beau Charmeur xx, Carnival Night xx, Sky Boy xx, Gipfel xx, Pennistone xx, Ozymandias xx, Ideal Water xx, Soudno xx and Bassompierre xx in the top of the rankings, Ireland can be considered the second best producer of event horses.



Country of Origin of the Sires in the Top One Hundred

Great Britain
25

Ireland
17

France
13

USA
12

New Zealand
11

Germany
9

Australia
3

Poland
1

Netherlands
1

South Africa
1

Unknown
7




Influence
In the top one hundred there is one sire with seven offspring in the rankings (Welton Crackerjack), three sires with eight (Welton Louis, Sky Boy xx and Babamist xx) and two sires with ten (Master Spiritus xx and Carnival Night xx).
Due to the results of Elektra Spiritus xx and Master Craftsman xx, Master Spiritus takes 1 Ith place. Master Craftsman is surely Master Spiritus' most successful descendant. With Ginny Leng he was placed first (1989), second (1992) and third (1988) at the Badminton Horse Trials. In 1988 he won an individual bronze medal for Ginny Leng and a silver team medal for Great Britain at the Olympic Games. A year later he becameEuropean Champion at the 1989Championships at Burghley and took second place with the British team.The Irish Thoroughbreds Carnival Night and Sky Boy are ranked 15th and 16th respectively while best American sire is Babamist xx in 25th place.
Despite the fact that the Thoroughbred Ben Faerie only takes place 129 in the sire rankings, he is one of the most influential sires in the British breeding industry. The 28 year old Ben Faeric is still alive and through his children and grandchildren is represented through all levels of intema- tional three-day eventing. Ben Faerie has eight offspring in the rankings, among them, Cornish Fear xx, Fairy Diadem and Benbury). But his best direct descendants have been retired. The most famous are Priceless and Night Cap 11, both ridden by Ginny Leng.
Priceless won in total eight medals at international championships: four gold team medals (1981 and 1985 European Champions and the 1982 and 1986 World Championships), one silver team medal (1984 Olympic Games), two individual gold medals (1985 European Championships and 1986 World Championships) and one individual bronze medal (1984 Olympic Games). Night Cap 11 won two gold medals, an individual at the 1986 Alternative World Championships in Bialy Bor (Poland) and a team gold at the 1987 European Championships in Luhmühien (Germany).



Number of Progeny of the Hundred Sires in the Top One Hundred

Amount of Progeny
Number of Sires

1
56

2
14

3
15

4
9

5
-

6
-

7
1

8
3

9
-

10
2




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Top Ten Jumping Sires of International Horses 1990-95

(Taken from - "Stallions - The Leading Competition Sires of Great Britain and Ireland" by Hugh McMahon)

1. RAMIRO Z
The life story of the recently deceased Holstein progenitor was covered by almost every magazine. Bred by Baron von Nagel, this grandson of Ramzes x encountered problems at first with stallion selection committees which did not like his looks. But as his magnificent sport career under Fritz Ligges unrolled, he was quickly rehabilitated in the eyes of the breeders, specifically when Ramiro's first products such as Fatinitza under Thomas Frühmann easily soared to the top of the sport.
Ramiro's hereditary powers seem to be directly derived from his dam, the Cottage Son xx daughter Valine, as his sire Raimond did not seem to cause any ripples in the genetic pond of sport horse breeding. Female influence plays a large role in Ramiro's breeding, for not only was his dam Valine an excellent showjumping horse, but also his better products are often mares, and that's where his sire Raimond proves his value after all, for he produced several of Holstein's most useful dams such as that of Lugana 11 (Stephan Lauber, Paul Estermann) and Operette La Silla (Jan Tops). The best Ramiro offspring are combinations with Almé, Gotthard, Ramzes x and Thoroughbred lineages.



2. JALISCO B
This Almé son is generated by one of the best performance lineages in France. The Furioso xx daughter Tanagra produced, besides Jalisco B, also Danoso (v. Night & Day xx) who was one of the best horses in the French team in the seventies under Daniel Constant. Night & Day xx also sired Geisha N, who jumped in the international sport with Erie Navet, and continued her career as Janou Tissot Levebre's broodmare, generating, amongst others, the licensed stallion Kissovo.
The breeding career of Jalisco B was placed in the able hands of Fernand Leredde and it is due to his efforts that the breeders brought suitable matches to this stallion right from the beginning. Jalisco B was a rather heavy horse with a lot of power but no fast reflexes, which made him an ideal partner for for high-blooded mares which could make split-second decisions.
If Ramiro's daughters proved more successful in the sport then so did Jalisco B's sons. That does not mean that Jalisco B's daughters were not fine broodmares. Kobalt ridden by Jan Vinckler and Valeska Forever are products of Jalisco B daughters. The number of his licensed sons featuring in the sport is remarkable: Quito de Baussy, Quidam de Revel, Olisco, Papillon Rouge, Quel Type d'Elle, Surcouf de Revel, Sisal de Jalesnes, Vert et Rouge, Qualisco III, Reve d'Elle and Sherif d'Elle are all rearing to go, and follow in their sire's wake.

3. LANDGRAF I
Landgraf I is probably the most proliferous sport horse generator in post-war history, with 113 products jumping at S-level and 26 in the WBCSH rankings. And his list is growing every year.
Landgraf 1 daughters have also proved their value, and guarantee the future of Landgraf I from their side. They produced horses like Classic Touch, Come On, Big Time and Athletico. Landgraf I sons present a different picture. Although many of them have been licensed, they did not manage to distinguish themselves in breeding, with the notable exceptions of Libero H, Landadel and Lotus II.
Interesting fact is that the above mentioned three stallions, as it happens, are not offering their services in Holstein, but in other parts of Germany and Europe. Maybe this is significant, for one often sees stallions more comfortably matched with "foreign" blood outside their breeding area than at "home".

4. GRANNUS
Best Hanoverian jumping upgrader of the past era was, no doubt, the Graphit son Grannus. Licensed by the Oldenburg studbook, he started his simultaneous career in sport and breeding at the Klatte family Stud.
Grannus performed satisfactorily in the sport at S-level, but he was to display some fairly unpopular characteristics in competitions, not unlike other products of his sire Graphit. Graphit is famous for his hereditary jumping potential, but also for offspring with rather complicated characters, and Grannus has been no exception. Grannus' breeding career was not strewn with roses right from the start, as he was definitely not a conformation sire and his children displayed a rather particular style of jumping. The inclination of his products to jump hollow-backed instead of with rounded backs has remained constant, but thanks to their exceptional jumping power, they tackled the highest fences and hardly ever touched a pole. This did not go unnoticed.
When, in a relatively short period of time, Top Gun, still with rider Nick Skelton at the time, Grand Plaisir under Ludger Beerbaum and Impérial with Nelson Pessoa jumped from one success into another, the hunt on Grannus products began in good earnest.
So far his offspring perform at S-level, 13 of them have reached the WBCSH ranking, and Grannus daughters are doing well in breeding. For example, Autogramm, Grace Argentina, For Pleasure and Weihaiwej, are all top-class jumpers from Grannus daughters. We will still have to wait and see about his sons, but Hanover recently licensed a few fine products of Graf Grannus, amongst which was the section champion, which is quite promising.

5. LUGANO VAN LA ROCHE
What initially started as a disappointing competitive sport career, eventually developed into a splendid breeding record. Lugano was purchased by the Deuss brothers in Verden in 1966, who also owned Flugel, another phenomenon in BWP breeding history. Flugel daughters crossed with Lugano proved the match of the era, generating world eminences such as Porche, Pluco, Pico and Egano which won Olympic medals, heavy Grand Prix and championships.
After his "Flugel period", Lugano enthusiastically devoted himself to partners from the lineage of Holstein Cottage Son xx son Codex. Codex was a top-class sport horse producer himself, and it can be no surprise that this combination produced phenomena such as Darco, or the super-fast Isaura vd Helle Also in his female offspring Lugano has done well, as demonstrated by his daughters producing, for example. Forester, Fidelgo, Goliath and Joli Fleur de Lys, Also in his female offspring Lugano has done well, as demonstrated by his daughters producing, for example, Forester, Fidelgo, Goliath and Joli Fleur de Lys, all with good international sport reputations.

6/8. POLYDOR / PILOT
These are two Pilatus sons that have easily proved themselves masters in the sport, yet nevertheless are totally different horses. Polydor descends from the modest Frühlicht, Pilot from the reputable Graphit. The former was well-matched with Aladin daughters, as demonstrated by Sonora La Silla, Padua and Poor Boy, whereas the latter bred well from Direx daughters, who produced horses such as PS Priamos Pierrot, Parodie and Epilot. The first passes on a more temperate character than the hot-headed products of the second.
Polydor's children scored slightly better in the sport than Pilot's, but in breeding Pilot clearly has better results than Polydor who has so far not been able to generate noteworthy sons. The Lukewarm appreciation shown for Polydor sons can first of all be attributed to their rather common appearance and little sensational movements.

7. KING OF DIAMONDS
What Landgraf I is to Holstein, is what Lugano is to the BWP, or Grannus to Hanover. It is also what King of Diamonds means to Ireland. This Irish Draught (in other words an Irish work horse) is Ireland's best representative in the WBCSH ranking with 17 products. Horses such as Special Envoy, Aachen Grand Prix winner with Rodrigo Pessoa, Mill Pearl and Jack of Diamonds, are but a few of this sire's famous products, 25 of which are international sport horses.
Besides an impressive string of licensed stallions such as Diamond Lad, sire of Robert Splaine's Heather Blaze, he also produced very useful daughters such as the dam of Master Maddox, Grand Prix winner for Swiss rider Hansueli Sprunger.

9. NURZEUS
This Anglo-Normand, three-quarters Anglo-Arabain, offers his services as SF in Germany under three different names. The story starts at a KWPN stallion selection, where the famous French stallion producer Alfred Levebre presented the Selle Francais Gordios, for that is what this horse is really called.
Gordios was not approved and was sold there and then to the equally well-known Oldenburg stallion-owner George Vorwerk, who renamed the stallion Zeus. Why was Vorwerk so interested in this Arlequin x son?
Arlequin x descends on the male side from ton progenitor Matador x and in the female line from the Thoroughbred Le Pot Aux Roses xx, who in turn sired the super performer Quo Vadis, medal winning Olympic ride of Marcel Rozier in Mexico, later multiple French Champion with Marc Houssin.
Zeus' full brother and sister, Figaro and Diablesse, were sparkling in the French jumping sport at that time, and last but not least, the SF Talisman is sire of Zeus' grand dam and can also be found in the female lineage of Furioso 11, another star of the Vorwerk studfarm.
Zeus produced some striking individuals with potential in his first seasons, of which Zampano, Play Back and Zigeuner are some successful examples.Therefore it did not take the KWPN long to retrieve Gordios and license him as Nurzeus. In spite of carrying a fair dash of Thoroughbred blood, he can be successfully combined with more, as demonstrated by Playback (dam's sire More Magic xx), Czar (dam's sire Lucius xx), Lonesome (dam's sire Furioso II) or Sapphira (dam's sire Solaris xx).

10. LORD
Lord is not only interesting because of his Ladykiller xx background, but also because his Cottage Son xx ancestry. That we find also these two Thoroughbreds elsewhere in the top-ten of the five-year WBCSH ranking, in Landgraf 1 (by Ladykiller xx) and Ramiro (dam's sire Cottage Son xx), can be no coincidence.
Lord started his career one year after Landgraf I was licensed by Holstein. Lord, himself a skillful jumper, gained stardom overnight, when a young product called Livius made such fantastic leaps in the Berlin Grand Prix that his rider Peter Luther could hardly stay in the saddle. A star was born in the Deutschlandhalle, but also in the stallion station of the Holsteiner Verband. Later, more products found their way into the WBCSH ranking, such as Lugana II, helping the Swiss team to their title of European Champions at Gijon and their team medal at the World Equestrian Games in The Hague.
Some other super sport horses produced by Lord are Top Speed, Lusius and Tovia. Lord supplied a total of 14 offspring to this five-year WBCSH ranking. His better products come from Ramzes x, Cor de la Bryere and Wahnfried lineages, but he is also well matched with Thoroughbred blood. As producer of dams of licensed stallions, Lord earned his reputation with Amadeus, Classic Dream, and specifically, Freestyle, winner of the 1995 Aachen Grand Prix.



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Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Cartier]

Just out of curiosity, any of you out there have Ladykiller up close in your pedigrees. If so, could you share a little about them… And is JALISCO B available by frozen... has anyone used him?

[This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 08, 2003 at 09:21 AM.]

[nhwr]

I ride dressage. I bought my mare because of her temprament and her movement. When I got her mare test results, I was surprised to see she got 9's for jumping. Upon researching her bloodlines abit I found her sire consistantly produce horses who loff to jump. She is by Dynamo. If she is really good, I let her jump alittle http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lianne]

Calling a Spade a Spade,

Thanks for posting that link. Certainly put a lot in perspective.
Cartier, it was posted because a couple of people were discussing this thread in the LAST few pages. Being extremely mean, rude, immature and distasteful about it, too.

Getting back to the original subject (sort of), does anyone know if CoolCorron Cool Diamonds is related to King of Diamonds? And if yes, does he have any offspring on the ground?

[MdLib]

Lianne, CoolCorron Cool Diamonds' sire is Glidawn Diamond, son of Kind of Diamonds.

He's nice!

His first crop should be 4-5 years old now.

[This message was edited by MdLib on Sep. 08, 2003 at 10:17 AM.]

[Everythingbutwings]

Calling a spade...

This topic was not the focus of the discussion, information posted on several topics and the validity of a bber's line of thought and experience on those topics was the discussion in the last few pages. That topic, like this one became diverted.

Now, back to Jumper breeding, a much more interesting discussion.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Everythingbutwings]

From Riding for Sport - Jumping (http://www.riding-for-sport-jumping.com/html/horse.html)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Horse

What type of horse is best suited to jumping?

If you’re shopping for a horse that you plan to ride in a jumping sport, you should look to the Warmbloods. You’ll need a horse that is able to maintain a steady and rhythmic pace. Jumping horses must be daring enough to jump, yet mellow enough to have a good temperament. Consider these breeds: Dutch Warmbloods, Belgian Warmbloods, Holsteiners, and Oldenburgs.


What features should I look for in a jumping horse?

In competition, your horse will be expected to jump obstacles as high as six feet. You need a calm horse. Horses who panic or are fearful when approaching an obstacle will balk and refuse to jump. The rider will work to develop the horse’s confidence; having a horse with a good temperament is a good start.


More about Jumping


Tack & Grooming
What products and equipment will I need to prepare my horse for jumping competitions?

The Horse
What’s expected of my horse? Is my horse suited to jumping sports?

Main Competitions
Where can I find information about local competitions and national events?

Related Links
What other choices do I have among riding sports? And where do I find more information about horses?






The horse should also have potential for developing good rhythm. Speed and strength are not as important as suppleness and balance. Of course, much of the balance requirement is developed through practice with a well-balanced rider. Many horses love to jump; the task is to bring out the best in your horse.

Looking for more sites on horses? Visit All-About-Horses for some of the best on the web.


What are the requirements for competition?
Horses of any breed, age, or sex can compete in jumping sports. A good balance of speed, agility, and power, combined with excellent training will result in a horse that is both athletic and able to handle the technical requirements of competition courses.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[MdLib]

Reading about Grannus stirred a memory, but i can't remember who the mare is...

'84 Olympics, Heidi ???? for Switzerland had a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail that jumped very hollow-like, but had legs that retracted like landing gear. Amazing jump. Can anyone indulge me?

[Cartier]

Lianne, please check your Private Topics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lianne]

Cartier, please do the same. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Lianne]

I was asking about CoolCorron because I was considering him as a stallion for my mare this year (but decided his stud fee was too pricey for me at this point). But I still have him in mind for her next foal, if this first one turns out to be the little showstopper I expect it to be. *lol* And for everyone's benefit, I am not ashamed to say, my mare is a Saddlebred. *gasp* *faint* * oh my god* *ewwww, have her spayed!* LOL....

Does anyone know of someone who has a CoolCorron baby?

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And for everyone's benefit, I am not ashamed to say, my mare is a Saddlebred. *gasp* *faint* * oh my god* *ewwww, have her spayed!* LOL.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not necessary to say anything like that. NObody here was EVER breed bashing.

[Lianne]

Relax, it was a joke. Just chuckle and move on.
It was in reference to those who seem to question crossbreeding (she's bred to a Dutch Warmblood). But nevermind, let's drop it right now, because I don't want to start something here... I was just taking a teasing little jab, that's all. No harm done.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[MdLib]

I think the answer just popped into my Random access memory - the horse was Jessica and I believe it was the '88 olympics. Excuse me while I talk to myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lianne]

*lol* MdLib... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif