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doublete
Feb. 17, 2003, 01:03 PM
Ok, I have been offered a breeding for my mare, which in this current economy, is quite appealing to me.
My mare is a maiden 4 y/o (she raced several times, but raced twice on an injury and therefore didn't do well AT ALL). Her name is Itapuan, she's on Del Mar. The stallion is Full Quiver. He doesn't have much of a race record, and doesn't have any one racing either. The other stallion that I may be able to breed to is Allawinir, who has won more and has racing stock on the track.
So my question is, do you think its a bad idea to give it a try?

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

doublete
Feb. 17, 2003, 01:03 PM
Ok, I have been offered a breeding for my mare, which in this current economy, is quite appealing to me.
My mare is a maiden 4 y/o (she raced several times, but raced twice on an injury and therefore didn't do well AT ALL). Her name is Itapuan, she's on Del Mar. The stallion is Full Quiver. He doesn't have much of a race record, and doesn't have any one racing either. The other stallion that I may be able to breed to is Allawinir, who has won more and has racing stock on the track.
So my question is, do you think its a bad idea to give it a try?

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

LaurieB
Feb. 17, 2003, 02:51 PM
My first question would be what do you intend to do with the foal? If you are breeding hoping to sell it as a racing prospect, I would say, based on the parents' records, it would probably cost you more to raise the foal than you will be able to sell it for.

If you're hoping to breed something to race yourself, again I would try to start with better stock. Racing is an incredibly expensive undertaking, and you would probably want to tilt the odds of success more in your favor. If you're looking for a hunter/jumper/eventing prospect, that's a whole other issue. I'll let someone else tackle that answer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

doublete
Feb. 17, 2003, 03:42 PM
Nope, its for racing purposes.
My own purposes. Up here in MA, the quality isn't really good anyways, but the way I'm looking at it, if the baby isn't going to do anything on the track, it will do the hunter/jumper or eventing. Full Quiver has all of his babies in the show ring, so apparently that won't be a problem.
The Dosage and everything seem pretty good with this cross.
A lot of unraced (or unplaced) broodmares do very well in their babies. My mare has very good breeding, and I saw mares' babies at the FasigTipton sale that were less well bred than mine.
I know its expensive, but I'm wondering if it might be worth it to give it a shot? I mean, what the heck IMO. I was going to breed the mare to a warmblood, but was offered this breeding, so I'd LOVE to save money and see what she throws the first time. If worse comes to worse, I'm thinking it will be a show prospect baby. We have a yearling right now that doesn't have the best race breeding, but is NY bred and we're going to start him for the track, if he doesn't prove himself, he's going to follow in his half sister's footsteps (who also started on the track first) and be a h/j (she is doing VERY WELL in the H/J).

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 17, 2003, 04:06 PM
Sorry, but no.

You shouldn't breed.

All these people who care about horses so much prefer to breed their own horses (sorry but those stallions don't sound like much), when they can be going to sales and getting babies that will be just as good as a not-so-well bred foal. Difference is, when you go to a sale, you are saving the life of a horse that may end up going to slaughter. Why breed?

Don't tell me, "For the thrill of having bred your own horse". That's no excuse.

I realize it's free, but please understand, you aren't contributing much. If you are willing to spend the money to put your horse through training, spend a little extra and go get a baby at a sale. I hate seeing those poor horses go to bad places.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anne
Feb. 17, 2003, 04:17 PM
Forgive me if this is blunt....

Your mare started five times and was unplaced, earning $0. Her dam has three foals to race; none of them are winners although her 3yo has placed. Under your mare's second dam are fairly recent runners by Deputy Minister and Storm Bird, both very highly regarded stallions. Each of these horses won one race in their careers, with earnings of $5000 and $7000 respectively. That's not enough to support themselves. From what I can tell there is no black type in this family at all but I am not looking at a catalog page. Value of a young Thoroughbred is not determined so much on just the names in the pedigree as it is by the quality of the sire's record and the black type in the female family.

Full Quiver has two starters, both foals of 1997. One raced 6 times; the other 16 and neither ever hit the board. He might be a great sporthorse stallion but for a racehorse I'd look elsewhere.

Allawinir had 2 wins himself and has 2 winners from 4 starters. All 4 starters raced at very cheap levels.

Now the blunt part. If you breed this mare to either of these stallions, you will probably end up with an unsuccessful racehorse (which to me is one who doesn't earn enough to pay his bills). What if your own circumstances change and you can't retire the horse as a hunter/jumper? You've only created another mediocre racehorse that will need a home, just like the ones you rescue and rehab. If you're interested in racing, why not claim a horse that's already racing, have fun with it, and then when it's ready to retire, see if it wants to be a hunter or a jumper.

"Breed the best to the best and hope for the best."

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 17, 2003, 04:47 PM
Bravo, Anne.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

joli
Feb. 17, 2003, 05:53 PM
Well, I also don't think that you should take a free breeding to a TB. I also don't think that you should breed the mare for racing purposes because of lack of race record and no production on dams side.
But, I do think that she looks like a lovely mare from the photo and if she moves well, is sound, athletic and has a good tempermant then consider breeding her to a WB for sporthorses.

Anne
Feb. 17, 2003, 06:34 PM
The photo is the stallion Full Quiver. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

Showpony
Feb. 17, 2003, 07:16 PM
I don't see anything wrong with anyones responses.

You asked for opinions. Maybe it wasn't what you wanted to hear, or worded the way you wanted but I thought you got some serious, obviously researched, honest answers.

I don't think anyone meant for you to take it so personally. You asked about breeding this mare to this stallion as a racehorse and were advised against it with good reasons.

doublete
Feb. 17, 2003, 09:49 PM
Like I said, I forgot what kind of response I would get.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 18, 2003, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
but from everyone that has seen her PHOTO, they say she won't even have a nice sporthorse. They all say breed her for race.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What MORON said that and why on EARTH would you think that makes sense??

Racing is the toughest aspect of equine sport you can put your horse in. If a horse isn't good enough to be a sport-horse, what on EARTH makes whoever said "Breed for race" think that it can endure the physical stress of racing?

Sorry, but you ARE adding to the population. Bluntly, it doesn't matter how "nice and sweet" your mare is. She's physically no good for breeding. Just because you want to give her something to do doesn't mean you should breed her.

[QUOTE] If the baby is nicer than expected, at least my mare will have a job and I'll breed her the year after that. [QUOTE]

So you're expecting an ugly baby and that makes this better? Okay, you obviously can't take anyone's opinion but your own thick-headed one, so yes, please, spare us the pain of knowing you are adding something, rather than saving the life of another baby by going to a sale. Do us a favor and don't ask opinions unless you want to hear what people are going to say.

Why don't you go read this topic (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5566064631&m=6466009412&r=2686009412#2686009412) for some other people's ideas.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SkyBeauty
Feb. 18, 2003, 08:22 AM
Well it would seem that the only responses that you were interested in getting were ones that told you what you wanted to hear, and this isn't going to be one of those, so you may not want to bother reading any further. But I'll give common sense a try anyway.

If you don't have the money to pay for a decent stallion, then how are you going to pay to train the resulting foal? Training is expensive, and there is a lot of it to be done before the baby runs even it's first race. Many people make this same mistake. They breed cheap horses, thinking that many unsuccessful mares have good runners. That is actually true, but the odds are against it, and if you can afford to pay the training yourself, feel free to give it a try. But if you can't afford to pay the bills when they come due, don't breed the mare.

Maybe you figured on getting a trainer to train the horse for a percentage? I am a trainer and a bloodstock agent, and I probably get 100 requests every season from people asking me to do this for them. But the problem is, the horse in question is usually only worth about $1000 in a good market. So why should I train the horse for at least 6 months, in exchange for what amounts to $500? It may turn out to be a runner, but let's face it, I could have bought the whole horse for less than a month's training bill, and owned it outright if I wanted to run that kind of risk. It isn't worth my time to make that kind of a gamble, and unless you have money to throw away, it shouldn't be worth yours, either. Some trainers may take the horse on a deal, but only the ones who can't afford to buy the horse in the first place, and if they can't afford to buy it, then they can't afford to train it properly.
Maybe you'll train it yourself? Bad idea. While I have no doubt that you are an excellent show horse trainer, race training is very different. Which is not to say that you couldn't learn, but learning is usually very hard on your first several racehorses. As with anything, learning involves making lots of mistakes, and racing is very unforgiving of mistakes. Janet DelCastillo has made a huge success out of telling people that they can train their own horses without any experience, but the fact is, I've never met a really successful backyard trainer. Janet herself started many hundreds of times last year, and only won two , and something like 2 seconds and a third. By all means, do it for fun, but not if you expect to win races. And before you get all upset about my insultimng backyard racehorse trainers, I'm not. Doing anything well requires years of work and learning specific to that area. I've been training racehorses for 20 years, and I do pretty well, but I'd be pretty lame trying to train a hunter to successfully bring home ribbons without a lot of trial and error. It's just a totally different type of training. I have no doubt that I could learn, but it wouldn't be overnight, by any means.
So after all of my preaching, I guess what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't breed the mare if she were mine. If you want to breed her, and can afford to pay the bills, then go for it. You might wind up with a nice horse, and you might not, it's your choice. Just be aware that you will likely be shelling out a lot of money for absolutely no return.


~ Stephanie

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?

doublete
Feb. 18, 2003, 10:11 AM
PLEASE STOP ANSWERING MY QUESTION... Apparently, as was so eloquently put, I dont want to hear what you have to say.
If it had been said in a nice way, I really want to hear everyone's opinions. I do not want to be trashed for breeding my mare.
I do NOT expect a horrible baby. I expect her to have a baby as nice as she is. I am not a MORON, I can look at my horse and see her conformation. She is built like a hunter, which is why people say breed her to another TB or a hunter sire. I don't want a hunter horse. She has great conformation- vets have said so, so I'm NOT going to take anyone's word for it on a BB where they can't see me or the horse behind it.
In my mind, what I was asking for, was a simple- well here are the good points, here are the bad points. Make your decision from there.
It is NOT your position to 'preach' at me, not even if you think you should. There is no way you should be able to sit there and tell me what I HAVE TO DO OR SHOULD DO WITH MY OWN HORSE. I pay the bills, end of story.
Sky Beauty- Actually, i appreciate part of your post.
What I'm trying to do with my mare, is legitimize breeding her the first time. As with any horse, it is a crapshoot. And if you want to make the argument that you shouldn't breed a horse that doesn't have a race record, then go for it, but I have proof positive in my own barn. My mare's cousin, out of a mare that never raced and by Heff (have you ever heard of him???) won big allowance races, and by the time he was 3 he had already won $45,000. I think that's pretty decent. He'd only raced a total of 9 times.

Soo.. What I am trying to say is: I can afford to breed to a big stallion.. However, I can't see spending $50,000 on a stud fee when I don't know if this mare can produce. She's maiden. As far as I know, it is perfectly logical to want her to prove herself before you stick a lot of money into her. We have a trainer. There is no issue there. I am not new to this.
I was not asking to be trashed or flamed on this one. Thanks anyways though. In the real world (which I live in), when someone asks your advice on something, you sit with them and you give the pros and cons. You don't jump down their throat and say "well how could you EVEN THINK SUCH A THING??".. Because, in the real world you see that person and you see what they do and you see their horses. Perhaps, you shoudl keep that in mind next time you give advice. Try living in the real world.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

[This message was edited by doublete on Feb. 18, 2003 at 01:19 PM.]

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 18, 2003, 10:56 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by doublete:
. Try living in the real world. [\QUOTE]

Huh?

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flash44
Feb. 18, 2003, 11:29 AM
You get what you pay for. Actually, sometimes you get less than what you pay for. You very very very rarely get more.

If you want a race horse, you have a better chance to succeed by going to the sale and buying a horse that you can see it's physical characteristics. What if your baby has the WORST characteristics of the mare and stallion? What will you do with it? It could be ugly and not athletic.

Many of the top stallions breed over 100 mares a year. Yet they really only get a handful of offspring that become better than average race horses. And they are bred to the top mares.

Don't create an unknown factor. Take the money you would spend raising the foal and buy yourself a youngster that you really like. You sound like you could give a horse a good home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SkyBeauty
Feb. 18, 2003, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
What I'm trying to do with my mare, is legitimize breeding her the first time. As with any horse, it is a crapshoot. And if you want to make the argument that you shouldn't breed a horse that doesn't have a race record, then go for it, but I have proof positive in my own barn. My mare's cousin, out of a mare that never raced and by Heff (have you ever heard of him???) won big allowance races, and by the time he was 3 he had already won $45,000. I think that's pretty decent. He'd only raced a total of 9 times.
................As far as I know, it is perfectly logical to want her to prove herself before you stick a lot of money into her. We have a trainer. There is no issue there. I am not new to this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problems with your wanting to breed your mare, as long as you know the odds, and are willing to shell out the cash. You might get lucky. Personally, I'd spend a little money and get a better mare, if I wanted to breed. But if you really like that particular mare, and want to give her a chance to prove herself, then doesn't it make sense to breed to a better stallion, and at least give her a reasonable shot at producing a decent runner? It is going to cost the same to get the foal to the races, so at least maximise your chances of getting a good runner. I'm not talking about a $50,000 stud fee, either, just a decent horse. Frankly you couldn't breed your mare to a $50,000 stallion, because they would never write her a contract. But there are lots of decent stallions out there you whom you could get an inexpensive breeding.

As far as Heff goes, I have not only heard of him, I had him for a while in training, and I'm pretty familiar with most of his foals. I don't remember one who made $45,000 in only 9 starts, though. What was the horse's name? Irregardless, while $45,000 is a nice chunk of change, you also have to deduct the costs of getting the colt to the races. I'm talking from birth, including the year that the mare carried the foal, vet bills and all. They certainly didn't make all that much profit.

I even said in my earlier post that mares who look to be sub-par sometimes produce good runners. But not nearly as often as good mares do. That is just a fact. If you are willing to take the risk to prove your mare, then go for it. But if you really want to prove the mare, then do it the right way, not just because you get a free breeding. Do a little research, and find the best possible stallion for what you are willing to spend. Heck, you wouldn't breed your dog, just because the neighbor had a male that could do the job for you, so why breed your mare that way?
You say that you aren't new to this, and you have a trainer. But you certainly sound new, or you'd already know most of this yourself. What does your trainer say about the breeding? If he's honest, he'll say exectly what I have.


~ Stephanie

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?

doublete
Feb. 18, 2003, 04:00 PM
Skybeauty-
Yeah that makes perfect sense. And essentially the answer I was looking for. I spoke to someone today on the phone who explained how to analyze the breeding (as in look at the crosses and how the crosses do on the track, etc).
The only reason why I brought this up is because I had actually decided to go ahead and sink some money into breeding to a very well proven warmblood sire.Fuerst Gotthard. Dont anyone argue with that choice, it was very hard to come to. And then I get this offer of a TB, which made me think "well what if this is a better idea?".. So now I'm wondering if I should breed her to a TB.
And IMO, good stallion owners will offer free breedings if they are compassionate or caring, doesn't matter if their stallion is the best thing since sliced bread.
Heff's son is The Case is Closed. He raced at Calder. Was shipped up here cuz he was giving people problems with the gate, proceeded to say he will not go in the gate up here and was ruled off the track. OOpps.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But anyways, the only reason why I brought this up is because I had already decided on a warmblood, and then this came up- you know the saying "sometimes things are meant to be"? I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.. So now I'm going to go through and analyze the breeding.
When I said I'm not new to this, I'm young, I'll admit it. I'm 19. I work very hard, and rehab horses off the track. I've run a boarding facility since I was 12 (my parents did the financial end, I was always the horse person). I've bred my QH mare several times. Still have one of the babies. But, I do know most of what I'm doing. However, since I am young, I am not closed minded. I believe there is always something else I can learn.
Which is why I ask questions and try to get everyone's opinions.
Now, I'm going to take my friend's advice and ask some questions of the stallion owner, research the cross, check into a few other stallions that I might like to breed to, and if all else fails, go back to my earlier decision to breed to Fuerst Gotthard.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Showpony
Feb. 18, 2003, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:

And IMO, good stallion owners will offer free breedings if they are compassionate or caring, doesn't matter if their stallion is the best thing since sliced bread.
WHY? Most stallion owners are a business not a charity. They need to make money and breed to good mares to produce nice offspring to promote the stallion, not give out free breedings to any mare

When I said I'm not new to this, I'm young, I'll admit it. I'm 19. I work very hard, and rehab horses off the track.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifSo you don't know what you are doing when it comes to "breeding" and "race" training horses. I'am glad you want to learn. Try not to take everyone trying to help you personally (most of us are just trying to help).

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bold type by showpony http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

doublete
Feb. 18, 2003, 10:48 PM
Showpony..
It doesn't necessarily matter about most of that stuff. It wasn't my original post. But I will answer.
I never said that stallion owners are a charity, what I would like to say is that for some people, it is not the money that matters. Just because a stallion fee is being given away or at a discount or less than you'd expect, does that mean that the horse is a lower quality? In some cases YES absolutely, but in others, nope, not a darn bit. If a stallion owner feels taht someone has a mare that may complement his stallion and perhaps needs some numbers that year, or needs a new market to be established, say in the Hunter market, or whatever, they may help out the mare owner to make it possible or *more* enticing for the mare owner. That's all.
When it comes to race training I don't have a darn clue! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have however been following a lot of the breeding of TB's for the past year, and before that QH's. So I do know the 'normal' good/bad how to decide whether you should breed a mare type thing. But the whole, matching bloodlines to complement each other. THAT was what I needed to find out about. I think I've done fairly well for myself in the past 12 years, I just want to keep learning as much as I can.

I do take things personally, which I forget is stupid because this is done through the computer and no matter what, nothing is as good as face to face contact.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

SkyBeauty
Feb. 19, 2003, 02:34 PM
The Case Is Closed. I remember that horse very well. But he started 13 times, not 9, which threw me off. I should have guessed it though. Shame about him. He did ok first couple of times out, then proceeded to crash and burn. I'm nearly positive that he was ruled off at Calder before he ever even went to Suffolk and got ruled off there.

Anyway, I digress. I don't know how hunter people handle their stallions, but no decent Thoroughbred stallion manager or owner would ever give a season away out of charity. They might offer you one for a really outstanding mare, so as to improve their foal crop, but I'm talking a really nice mare. Black type, or who comes from a black type family, or has produced black type. Thoroughbred breeding is driven by averages, and nobody who owns a really good stallion wants to screw up his averages up by breeding to a bad mare, especially not for free. People who have a backyard stallion often will, just to get numbers, but those stallions will never succeed, because the more bad mares you breed, the more bad foals you get, and the fewer decent mares will be willing to take a chance on your stud.

When choosing a stallion, yes, you want to complement your mare's bloodlines, but far more important is choosing a stallion with potential. How many foals has he had, and how did they do at the races? Is he by a good sire himself, one that has produced good sires? Few good stallions come from mediocre sire lines. What is the dam side like? Is he a half or full to many other superior runners, or was he a fluke from a nothing family? If he's a fluke, likely he'll never make a good stallion. The genes just aren't likely to be there. Have his half/full sisters proven to be producers? The more successful his family is in the shed, the more likely that he will be, too.


~ Stephanie

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?

doublete
Feb. 19, 2003, 05:33 PM
Ahh yes Sky Beauty.. Those are the types of questions I have to ask..
Well, 9 or 13 starts don't matter much to his hunter/jumper career. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif They said he was unmanageable.. I'm not sure where they got that from. I've had him since October and he's been nothing but an absolute doll. Yes, occassionally he gets this impish look his face and he refuses to move- the stubborn mule that he is- which is why I can see him being ruled off the track. I think he was on the starter's list at least, that's why they sent him up our way. I talked to a trainer down there that had heard of him and only had to say one thing "there will always be a reason that they're selling the horse"... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's ok, he loads on the trailer, clips, rides wonderfully, jumps, and is just downright gorgeous so I could care less.
I think it is no matter whether the breeding is being offered at a discount or not. Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ what the reason is. And I do not think my mare is a 'bad' mare, so anyways.
I am going to answer those questions before I make my decision. But yup, those are the answers I need. I dont know what I'll do- but like I said earlier this was not the original plan- a warmblood was. I just figured I'd give it some serious thought first, no sense saying no without investigating a bit. The dumbest decisions are made with a closed mind and closed eyes.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Evalee Hunter
Feb. 19, 2003, 06:56 PM
So good to see you posting--you've been so kind & helpful to me over the last couple of years.

I'll give Doublete an example from my own experience, one Stephanie has heard plenty about.

We bought a pregnant mare in Dec. of 2000. This mare raced 77 times over 4 years. Granted, she was "a claimer" but she definitely showed soundness & heart & sanity (26 starts in 1 year alone). She was in the 1st 3 about 50% of her starts. Her half brother is still racing (& winning) at the age of 9 or 10 (I forget which) & he has raced over 100 times. Her only other JC registered half-sibling (a younger sister) was placed, but not a winner.

This mare was bred to Corporate Report, a son of Private Account. CR won over a million dollars & won The Travers, was 2nd in the Preakness, etc. so he had a respectable record. He has had only modest success in the breeding shed, however. His offspring regularly win $1 million a year, but he has sired only 1 or 2 stakes winners so he doesn't get much respect. (The stud fee is $3,000.)

She foaled a very handsome colt, but we definitely have not gotten any significant interest in him as a race horse. I would think someone would look at his family history & be intrigued by the heart, soundness, sanity but they aren't. What people see is: CR & the mare did not race until 3; CR's offspring do not do well as 2 year olds; there are very few stakes winners.

Now, I don't have a trainer or really much chance of putting together the money to get the colt to the track. You say you have access to a trainer, the money to back the horse & that's all to the good.

All I'm trying to tell you is: a very specific & true & personal story that backs up the generalities everyone has been making. There's not much chance of a foal from your mare having a chance at the track, not much chance the foal would get any interest from anyone who might purchase it, not much chance it would get any interest from anyone who would train it. (Unfortunately, the highest ranking trainers tend to be picky about what horses they take.)

Now, it is not breaking our hearts about this colt not going to the track. He's gorgeous with wonderful movement so we'll work on training him as an event horse, something my daughter knows a little about. (We admit we know nothing about training for the track.) All I'm trying to do is put a specific horsey & human face on what everyone is saying.

I have no plans to breed this mare for racing offspring or potential racing offspring--we'll stick to trying to find stallions that will give us superior eventing offspring.

www.rougelandfarm.com (http://www.rougelandfarm.com) Home of TB stallion Alae Rouge, sire of our filly Rose, ribbon-winner on the line at Dressage at Devon.

doublete
Feb. 19, 2003, 09:23 PM
Evalee Hunter-
Yes I do understand that. As with any breeding, it's all genetics smooshing together and you're taking a huge chance, no matter what. You could breed the two best horses together (and granted you're going to get a nice horse), but it could be slower than cold molasses.
I completely understand that.
Can I just reiterate that I was really looking for ideas on the *cross* of bloodlines that I am talking about? Which is why I put the registered names? I may or may not breed to a TB, what I see with breeding my mare to a nice TB that has foals showing AND racing is 1) a chance of getting a horse that will be able to go on the track 2) a chance of getting a horse to show or 3) a piece of crap, which can happen no matter what.

Also, to clear things up a bit. My father is 55, he's going to retire soon. I'm young, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that either one of us would ever end up in a position that one of our own horses would have to be 'dumped' quickly. I'm talking, HIGHLY unlikely here folks. My father doesn't require having a winner on the track. He could care less, I think. He just wants a horse that isn't going to break down, may be able to hold its own, and serve as entertainment for him, as well as retire to a show career when the horse is done.
Some people may say this is stupid, but you know what? My father has supported my "saving horses" habit for a long time. He walks through the "meat" barn to see what he can buy to save, so I think he knows what the potential is to create.
Everything in horses is risky... Your prize and very valuable horse could go out the barn door and step wrong, fracturing a bone. That's unfortunately the way it is.
I am trying to keep track and take care of my little 'herd' of horses. I do my best by them, I pay my bills for the, I love them. I add a few when I can, I find good homes for others when I can.
My mare is more or less going to definitely be bred this year. I spent hours and days going over videos of sporthorse sires. I finally decided on one that I think gives the best chance of a nice sporthorse baby. I hadn't booked yet, so when I started thinking about possibly breeding to a TB, and what the opportunities would be for the baby, I have to think about bloodlines, cost of breeding, etc. So that when the baby comes out, I can evaluate what it is going to do and know that when I bred for it, I took everything into account.
I'm not doing this stupidly, I am trying to keep my eyes open and listen to everyone's advice. I do believe I am what you would call a 'responsible' breeder. I dont pump babies out for a living either. They are bred for when I know in 2-3 years I need them, or want them specifically for what I'm breeding for.
Whew.. And that might have been rambling, but it is from the heart and hopefully clears a few things up.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

horsepowerco
Feb. 20, 2003, 04:39 AM
Showpony I'm sorry you are wrong. I am a stallion owner and have handled some fo the finest stallins to stand in the state of Ohio (for what ever thats worth) Do you stand a stallion? Have you ever stood a stallion...how about bred to a stallion in KY...I'm talking big stallions. I do and I have and there are alot more FREE breedings going on out there then you know. Yes we produce quality horses from our stallion as well as from other stallions. I as well as a friend of mine (much larger breeder then myself) are offered free breedings or at least breedings for pennies on the dollar. I would hope that as a stallion owner someone would understand that the reasons I may have to offereing a free breeding are my own and none of their business. Needless to say I'm smart enough to not breed a mare whom I would consider not worthy, let alone give away a breeding to the mare! As for offering free breedings JUST FOR NUMBERS...nope we don't do that either. But i have offered free breedings to people with the right intentions with the right mare with the right connections. Is it CHARITY? I don't think so...its a smart business move. Last time I checked, which isn't often, our stallion is no spring chicken, he has stood to a limited number of mares cause for me this is not a major business in the state of Ohio do to the fact our racing program for stallion owners is a joke. nad I have had many offers to move him to another state. Or to sell him. BUT...our stallion has a nice bunch of stakes foals...more then most of the stallions within our state and every year i get about 20-30 calls asking if I will GIVE away a breeding cause they can breed to so & so for free and their buddy bred to so& so for free and the beat goes on. there are deals on consesions, there are foal shares, there are foal swaps...there are all kinds of creative ways to get stallion services. I know of a freind who owns a Cryptoclearnce filly. she broke down before she would break her maiden...need less to say her phone has rang many times with offers of free breedings...from very nice KY, NY and VA stallions. Would breeding this filly make her foals JUNK? Doublete...you do what best fits your situation. I have see my fair share fo JUNK bred horses do well at the track. Not all tracks have the stakes class horses the other side of the racing world can afford. But yes you get out of this what you put into it. I do hold a trainers license and I'm a graduate with a Vet vech License and an extensive background in Equine Sports med. as well as reproduction. I have seen a lot of horses some good, some bad but most middle of the road. you have to produce whats going to fit in at your track. I sure as heck wouldn't go breed to Storm Cat (like I could afford it NOT) if I were racing at Thistledown (not that his horses don't show up there from time to time) its just not a smart move. Now if i were racing at Churchill Maybe...lol its nice to dream isn't it?

To love a Thoroughbred is to truely live and enjoy life.

SkyBeauty
Feb. 20, 2003, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
I think it is no matter whether the breeding is being offered at a discount or not. Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ what the reason is. And I do not think my mare is a 'bad' mare, so anyways.
Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as you said, you're new to breeding racing stock, so you'll eventually learn better, or maybe you won't. But unfortunately what you "think" has no bearing on what actually "is". Once you're a little older and more experienced, you'll find that out. We all do, eventually.
And you needn't take offense at the comment about your mare being a bad mare. The fact is, right now she is a poor breeding prospect. Afer a foal or two, or even if her dam produces a major winner, she may very well be a very hot commodity. That is part of the beauty of the Thoroughbred industry. You are what you can do, with no barriers. Before Silver Charm, you couldn't give a Bonnie's Poker foal away. Afterwards, name your price! Of course she never produced anything else of note, but that's beside the point...........
Good luck, and best wishes. And take good care of The Case Is Closed. I always did have a soft spot for that horse.


~ Stephanie

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?

SkyBeauty
Feb. 20, 2003, 04:56 PM
Hi Evalee!

I don't post often, because I'm usually pretty busy, so I don't get much chance. But I try to be of help when I can.
How's that boy of your doing, anyway? He was such a gorgeous baby. Is he still a knockout? It really is a shame that he can't get a shot at the races. But I have a feeling that with those looks, he'll make a big success in the show ring, so no big loss, I guess. Give him a carrot for me, ok?


~ Stephanie

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't a lot more people happy?

doublete
Feb. 20, 2003, 09:36 PM
I'm not taking offense to my mare being "bad" because I for one know she's not. It's not just me either.. I just think that when you look at pictures of horses it's hard tell real conformation. If they aren't stood up well, etc. And as for breeding, my mare is half decent.
but like you said, you can only tell how she will be as a broodmare AFTER a few foals. So.. I'm trying to pick the best choice I can. And like I also said, if I pick a decent (also because like horsepowerco said, I would be racing up here in the NE, which you can ask any FL trainer or anyone at the 'better' tracks, they'll say our racing is a joke, besides NY racing. So I don't need to breed for the BEST racehorse, I need to breed for a horse that *might* have a chance on the tracks up here and will DEFINITELY have a life as a sporthorse afterwards.
As for "Chili" as I call him, he's very easy to have a soft spot for. Such a cutie pie. He jumped our fence the second day he was here though... Little brat. He's doing wonderfully and he's spoiled of course. He's so sweet, but he tries to do the "I'm a big bad boy" thing once in a while, like during feeding time... I can't take him seriously though cuz he's so immature, he may be 4, but he's just like a baby.

Horsepowerco... Thanks... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Anne
Feb. 21, 2003, 04:20 PM
"So I don't need to breed for the BEST racehorse, I need to breed for a horse that *might* have a chance on the tracks up here and will DEFINITELY have a life as a sporthorse afterwards."

I realize you are probably very frustrated with all of us and probably with me especially, but you still don't understand the point we were trying to make. If something's worth doing, it's worth doing right. If you were breeding for a hunter for yourself to show locally, would you be content with a local backyard sire that was a trashy mover, just because you don't think you'll ever show the resulting foal on the A circuit? I can make the same case for jumpers or eventing or dressage. IMO breeding for mediocrity, no matter what the discipline, is very misguided.

*****************************
Custom Needlepoint Belts (http://www.freewebs.com/belts)

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 21, 2003, 06:43 PM
Thank you, Anne.

You sound like you're breeding your horse for the Charles Town lot: No good broken down horses that are on their last leg. Who wants to be a part of that? Helluva thing to aim for there.

What you don't seem to be taking into consideration, doublete, is that your horse, as a racehorse, will be entering a very physically challenging field.

So you say, "Well if he doesn't do good, I'll pull him and make him a show horse."

What if your horse breaks down? Now, you'll probably either have a dead horse, or a horse that is no longer able to be a competitive horse, if even a rideable horse.

Heck, forget breaking down, odds are against that something will happen to make your horse no longer competitive to it's full potential as a sport horse...since you know enough about racing to breed "racehorses" I'm sure I don't have to go through the list of injuries that are most common.

Not to mention that when you are breeding horses that are, shall we say, a little "lacking" in conformation (most important, bad legs) you are breeding a horse that isn't going to be as sound. One that risks breaking down with a single bad step.

In this instance, you have, therefor, created a horse just like your broodmare you had to begin with: useless. Unless, you want to make said foal, if it turns out to be a filly, a broodmare as well? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Showpony
Feb. 21, 2003, 09:13 PM
To Horsepowerco

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
Skybeauty-

And IMO, good stallion owners will offer free breedings if they are compassionate or caring, doesn't matter if their stallion is the best thing since sliced bread.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to ruffle your feathers!
I just didn't understand what "compassionate and caring" had to do with free breedings, sounded like a charity to me.

I completely understand free breeding to outstanding mares to encourage them to breed to your stallion and hopefully have nice babies to promote your stallion. That is business!That is exactly what I said and the point you made so well for me. I am sorry Horsepowerco but I agree with you 100% and said nothing to the contrary! But it does not sound like Doublete's mare is an outstanding racehorse mare, though she maybe a perfectly nice mare otherwise, I really don't know.

NO I do not stand a stallion. YES I have been offered free breedings to stallions, I like to think because I have nice mares, not because the stallions are inferrior(sp?)...because they aren't! And I have racehorses, my husband has been a licenced trainer for quite a long time and we have bred some quite ligitamate racehorses (atleast in our minds! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Please re-read what I said in my previous post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by showpony on Feb. 22, 2003 at 02:28 PM.]

On the Farm
Feb. 22, 2003, 03:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete: I spent hours and days going over videos of sporthorse sires. I finally decided on one that I think gives the best chance of a nice sporthorse baby. I hadn't booked yet, so when I started thinking about possibly breeding to a TB, and what the opportunities would be for the baby,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've stayed out of this until now, but I think your quote here tells you exactly what you need to do. Go with the sporthorse, even if you have to pay a stud fee. There is just nothing in the TB pedigrees, race records, produce records, etc. that would justify mating your mare to Full Quiver, even if it is free. As you've stated in your quote, give yourself the best chance.

FairWeather
Feb. 24, 2003, 08:58 AM
and the ignorance continues to abound.

Living in the real world? How about the real world of two Punch offspring selling for 3000$ at the winter mixed sales??

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

Two Toofs
Feb. 24, 2003, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:

You sound like you're breeding your horse for the Charles Town lot: No good broken down horses that are on their last leg.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHOA. Cheap track does NOT mean broken down or no good by ANY MEANS. Sometimes, it means just plain SLOW (again, not = to "no good"). I don't know what track you are at, but there are just as many "royal" bloodlines at the bottom as there are at the top, ditto with lameness issues - or "last legs"..... *cough*war_emblem*cough*.... and "royal" or not, there is just as much heart.

Ask those who have taken horses from Chas Town into second careers if they think their mounts are "no good". Maybe not for racing at the higher levels, but lets not get into slamming for rank. Good and bad in all, top and bottom. And those at the lower levels who care just as deeply for their horses and work just as hard to keep them healthy and well might just take a WEE BIT of offense to your blanket statement. Nice way to perpetuate the myth that everything off the track is all crippled up and no good for anything else. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

FairWeather
Feb. 24, 2003, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:
Thank you, Anne.

You sound like you're breeding your horse for the Charles Town lot: No good broken down horses that are on their last leg. Who wants to be a part of that? Helluva thing to aim for there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the H*LL is that supposed to mean?
Sorry hon, but to echo Two Toofs--
There are a LOT of nice horses there. Sorry again, but the price of the claiming tag doesnt indicate racing soundness, conformation or quality of horse!

Where do you think all those precious Maryland bred horses end up? They sure as $hit arent going to play in some nice horsey farm for the rest of their days! Soon as they drop in tags they head to CT--does this make them ANY less valuable as an animal??

So the horse I just pulled out of $2500 claimers who was a KY bred (by OGDEN PHIPPS!) is no-good and broken down, bred for Charles Town?
IT didnt seem that Charles Town was only for broken down nags when that lovely girl XTRA HEAT RAN THERE!!! &lt;03Dec00- 8CT 7f Dirt fst Snow White40k Fillies 2Yr-Olds&gt;

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

FairWeather
Feb. 24, 2003, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:
Thank you, Anne.

You sound like you're breeding your horse for the Charles Town lot: No good broken down horses that are on their last leg. Who wants to be a part of that? Helluva thing to aim for there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the H*LL is that supposed to mean?
Sorry hon, but to echo Two Toofs--
There are a LOT of nice horses there. Sorry again, but the price of the claiming tag doesnt indicate racing soundness, conformation or quality of horse!

Where do you think all those precious Maryland bred horses end up? They sure as $hit arent going to play in some nice horsey farm for the rest of their days! Soon as they drop in tags they head to CT--does this make them ANY less valuable as an animal??

So the horse I just pulled out of $2500 claimers who was a KY bred (by OGDEN PHIPPS!) is no-good and broken down, bred for Charles Town?
IT didnt seem that Charles Town was only for broken down nags when that lovely girl XTRA HEAT RAN THERE!!! &lt;03Dec00- 8CT 7f Dirt fst Snow White40k Fillies 2Yr-Olds&gt;

and yes i DID take personal offense to that statement.
__________________________
_A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men..._
http://www.fairweather-farm.com
http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 24, 2003, 11:10 AM
Not ALL Charles Town horses are bad, we run a few there ourselves.

I guess I should have made it a clearer statement as to the broken-downs here in MD that get sent there to run a few more races and get some last couple of bucks before they are broken down. You can defend that and say your Canter organization saves a lot of horses, and it DOES, however, more breakdowns happen there than anywhere.

Why do you think so many jockeys dread having to go there?

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FairWeather
Feb. 24, 2003, 11:16 AM
And what does that have to do with the tea in China!?
I didnt bring CANTER into this arguement--
It had nothing to do with my point.
backpeddling out of your statement doesnt change the point that you are wrong.

If Jocks dread having to 'go' there, they can stay where they are.
I dont see many people complaining about the High purses there!

Tell me where the stats are for breakdowns again? I must have missed that.

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

Treat Wench
Feb. 24, 2003, 11:31 AM
Grrrrrr! I'm amazed at the ignorant statements I read here sometimes...



Formerly greengrl


"Horse sense is what a horse has that keeps him from betting on people"
W.C. Fields
1880 - 1948<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 24, 2003, 01:35 PM
Sorry that you take the fact that the place SUCKS so personally.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

horsepowerco
Feb. 24, 2003, 04:42 PM
First off...Ct is up and coming...look at Mountaineer Park.You think ole Waterford Park was such a Gem? Ha you have got to be kidding me. Take it from someone who used to ride there. And yes I still hold a trainers lisc there. I don't think any breeder breeds a horse thinking..."Welp its good enough for SO&SO Park if nothing else!" Not every horse is bred and born for greatness. If they were, we would all have Triple Crown winners in our barns...but we all know thats far from the truth. Also not all owners can afford a Stakes quality horse in training with a High Profile trainer. Most owners on an average won't own a Stakes CLASS horse. Most own Claimers, maiden Claimers and allowance runners. In knowing that not every horse is cut out for every track. Yes its true tracks cater to or attract a certain TYPE or class of horse. Mountaineer Like Charles Town was many times the last stop for several horses and their careers. But they all can't run at Churchill Forever. Does that mean that horse is less valuable? NOPE. For me it adds value. I know I can go to CT and look at the same horse today that ran at Belmont last summer. That many times tells me alot about the horse. The fact that he may have ended up at CT or Mountaineer Park (which has changed so much in the past few years!)means someone liked him well enough either in the flesh or on paper to keep him in training and invest MORE $ into him. To make a statement to the effect that a track of this caliper is the last stop...well, I'm glad its there. Or for many the last stop may have been even sooner. Soup...I have read this message board for sometime now and I usual read your posts and see a very thoughtful horseperson. But in this recent topic I see a person who is a spoiled brat, if you can't afford the best then you should have it is a PI$$ Poor way to go through life. To tell someone not to breed a horse because their horse is JUNK is not what she asked...shes asked which should she do...to translate, she doing something...which would better suit her needs and desires? I don't think she asked if you felt her horse was worthy..and I don't she asked anyones opinion of her Mare. The opinion she asked for was..."which should I do?" I understand all too well about people breeding for the sake to be breeding and not even worry about what will be the produce and its worth. As a breeeder I'm not the least bit interested in breeding more junk...but thats me personally. If someone else wants to do it...so be it...have fun....good luck. Life is too short tell people what or what not to do becasue you think your opinion is needed or even wanted. Man I wish I was spoiled!but then maybe in this case MY Opinion wasn't asked for but guess what you got it!

To love a Thoroughbred is to truely live and enjoy life.

Albion
Feb. 24, 2003, 04:56 PM
SFTS, I don't think Fairweather et al. are so much offended that you think CT is a crappy place to be ... it's the way you phrased it about all of the HORSES running there being crappy, which is bullsh*t. Just because a TB isn't going to be a stakes winner (or a winner, period) doesn't mean it's a crappy horse. I've ridden some nicely bred horses (one Gone West filly comes to mind) who couldn't have raced their way out of a paper bag. They were LOVELY horses though, and that particular filly probably would have made a fabulous hunter. Was she a crappy horse because she would probably have had a hard time winning in the lowest of the claiming ranks at CT? HELL NO. She had gorgeous conformation, wonderfully laid back, could go around the track on a loose rein after being under saddle for a week, and was a beautiful mover to boot.

To sit there and make a blanket statement as to the quality of horses at CT is what inflamed people. It was just a stupid remark on your part, honestly - just because a horse winds up as being a bad race horse (which is the larger percentage of all TBs bred for racing in the US), doesn't mean it's a crappy horse. Go watch the rings at Ocala - where do you think some of THOSE TBs came from? Winning in good company at the big A shows is nothing to laugh at.

-Albion

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 24, 2003, 05:18 PM
No no noooo....

My main thing with CT horses isn't the horses themselves...why would I hate the horses?

I just hate the place because so many horses break down there. It's a good place for those not-so-speedy guys to go, which also makes it a popular place for, as I said before, horses on their last leg.

I know a couple of trainers who run there and I think none the lesser of them or the horses.

BUT, no one really WANTS their horse to be a slow horse, my statement was that by breeding to this stallion, that's almost what this person looks like she's out to do.

And my statement about the jockeys? They go there because they HAVE to. Jockeys who don't make it at bigger tracks usually go to the smaller tracks that are similar to CT. The ones that are better jocks (Dunkelburger, Fogelsonger, etc) will only go there to ride a single horse for a certain trainer.

To be honest, I don't know anyone that really cares for CT all that much. Sorry if I offended you, but I just plain hate the place. Every time I go there a horse breaks down.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Albion
Feb. 24, 2003, 05:38 PM
See, THAT'S not an offensive statement, SFTS. My friend who rides for Jonathan Sheppard & Shadwell always says that "there is a dire lack of horseman at CT". She also quantifies that statement by saying that's generally the case just about EVERYWHERE. I think she's just spoiled, riding for the big names. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But even then, some of the stories I've heard from her about some big big big trainers made me go http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

People may not WANT their horses to be slow, but let's face it, there's a great many 'backyard breeders' that keep the smaller trainers going. I don't know who you work for, SFTS, or what kind of operation it is (I gather a relatively nice one), but I galloped at a crappy little training track for a relative bottom of the barrel trainer. A LOT of his horses were bred by what I would term backyard racehorse trainers. They just want SOMETHING to run. Doesn't really matter if it wins or not ... not saying this is right, but it's the way things go. It seems the original poster said the horse had a home for life, regardless of it's success on the track. At least she's not just looking to pass it on down through the claiming ranks.

It never failed to amaze me the way people treated these horses - we had a pair of fillies come in, one was a BIG girl by Waquoit, who basically hadn't been touched for about 2 years. The Waquoit filly had dreadlocks in her mane - complete with pieces of dead leaves & branches. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

-Albion

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

Flash44
Feb. 24, 2003, 05:39 PM
Let's not get into the Maryland snobbery. Horses can occasionally make more money running at the same level at Charles Town or Mountaineer Park than they can a Lau/Pim.

And the horses and the people will follow the money, and thanks to slots, there happens to be quite a bit of money whirling around CT these days. What they don't have is John Passero, who maintains a better dirt racing surface than anyone in the world.

The broke down horses go to the meat man. Thank God for CANTER and other organizations that are able to place ex racers in good homes.

It's hard enough to make money with a well bred horse, and even harder with a mediocre bred horse. So I agree that maybe you should breed for a sport horse, at least you'll have a better shot at a good quiet temperment.

You can't guarantee the offspring will be a good sport horse, but a well mannered well broke horse will always be able to find a good home.

FairWeather
Feb. 24, 2003, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:
No no noooo....

My main thing with CT horses isn't the horses themselves...why would I hate the horses?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

you said this: You sound like you're breeding your horse for the Charles Town lot: No good broken down horses that are on their last leg. Who wants to be a part of that? Helluva thing to aim for there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats funny--because thats pretty much exactly what you said--which is EXACTLY why I took offense.
Before you start slinging sh*t, you best take a look at the disrepair the MD tracks are in.
Dont know if you've looked lately, but Bowie aint a palace.
Once again, backpeddling out of something you said that was HIGHLY insensative, blatantly ignorant and bordering on stupid is the wussies way out and even more insulting http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.


__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

[This message was edited by FairWeather on Feb. 24, 2003 at 09:43 PM.]

free
Feb. 24, 2003, 08:57 PM
There was another thread recently
where the majority of the posters agreed that breeders should be more discerning in what they bred in order that less horses would end up at the killers. We all know that this is what Soup was trying to say and that her heart was in the right place. Wagering now makes it profitable for horses to be run until they are useless for much else. We have been watching one horse in particular because we tried to purchase him for Eventing but the trainer all of a sudden decided to continue racing him (after we had an agreement and we had made arrangements for the shipping company to transport him). This trainer told us that the horse could no longer be competitive even at this level and he hasn't been. I don't see the sense in continuing to push this horse but I don't understand a lot of why people do things anymore.

In fact, on the other thread I was in the minority saying that selective breeding would have eliminated some very beloved horses who left a lot to be desired conformationwise but who gave their owners something far more valuable than big purses or blue ribbons. And I believe that this is what doublete was trying to say. She wanted to breed a horse that she could love and have some fun with. Winning the big purses wouldn't matter to her and she would not run it into the ground. They would just enjoy it for what it was.

Some people view a glass as half full - some view it as half empty ... I spill it!

doublete
Feb. 24, 2003, 09:36 PM
Well I seem to have created such a ruckus... But yes free-- thank you. That is what I am saying. I, like everyone else, do not believe in reproduction only to get another animal, regardless of quality. I simply could not stand to create an animal that I wouldn't want to look at, much less have to find a home for. I am very picky in my horses, but they have homes for life and I love them dearly. So yes, as someone else said, I am providing my mare with a home for life. And I simply asked a question asking for opinions on her specific breeding in relation to the stallions breeding. Because, I believe things always happen for a reason and thought before I made an uneducated decision to NOT breed to a TB, i should perhaps research it a bit more. I don't want my mare to be a baby factory anyways, just a few foals would be nice. SHE IS NOT JUNK. Sorry to say, I am not a moron when looking at conformation, I have been doing this long enough, and I'm smart enough to know. Her breeding is actually quite good. Unless Alydar being her grandfather and one of the top sires isn't good. And yes my mare has a horrible race record, in this case she had some bad luck in her first two or three races, showed speed, then hurt her knee in an accident and her owners proceeded to race her on it!!! She continued to race, showing heart, even though she was not stellar. What I have learned in my small amount of time soaking in the TB world, breeding does matter, conformation matters, the whole package matters. I don't think anyone can dispute this. However, there are many horses out there that are created that are a tad bit less than perfect. Do their owners love them any less??

And as for the comments on each particular race track. That is completely uncalled for and rude. Each track has its own place in the racing world. Rockingham park up here in NH was a small track, and generally attracted the smaller trainers, with probably lower quality horses. BUT they had to have somewhere to go!!!! There are only so many horses that can compete at Belmont, Aqueduct, Churchill, etc. And there are so many people out there that make their living in the racing world, there needs to be more horses than can compete there.
And, yes, you may see many horses breakdown at CT. But, you see horses break down everywhere. If a horse is 'on its last legs', and it is still racing, it is not the track's fault. It is the owner or trainers fault for not paying enough attention to the conditioning and training of the horse to allow it to get to that point. A particular track may draw these owners/trainers there because in general there is a lower standard, but in the end, isn't this better than having nowhere for these horses to go, if they MUST race? Imagine where they'd go instead.. You don't want to.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Tucked_Away
Feb. 25, 2003, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
Her breeding is actually quite good. Unless Alydar being her grandfather and one of the top sires isn't good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably shouldn't poke my nose in at such a late date, but...

This isn't just for you, but I see this kind of comment a lot. Yes, it's nice to have a horse bred in the purple all the way back. But. There are lots and lots and lots of horses out there that are Alydar grandkids. Or Mr. Prospector grandkids. Or Secretariat grandkids. We have one of those last at the barn right now, actually -- lovely big chestnut hunter who I think actually won some small stakes.

It isn't enough to be an Alydar grandkid. What really matters is where the Alydar is coming from. Frex: you're generally much better off with your Secretariat grandson if his dam was a Secretariat mare than if he's out of a Secretariat son. If I was going for an Alydar granddaughter, I'd rather she was by -- I don't know, Saratoga Six, than one of his $500 sons. Honestly, Alydar isn't a top sire of sires.

The question isn't, "Are there top names in her pedigree?" It's, "How are they in there? Via what offspring, and in what position?"

Yeah, there are plenty of flawed horses out there. Yeah, some of them end up doing really, really well. Yeah, the less-prestigious tracks have their place in the world. But it's so easy to be disappointed in breeding and racing -- why go into it without aiming for the most perfect foal you can have? If you're going to put the time and money into breeding a race prospect, why not do it right?

And if what you really want is a show horse, why not breed one of those and get into racing another way? Buying a nice baby, maybe, or how about one of those partnerships things? Some of them have really nice opportunities for people to get a taste of the racing world.

It's grand that you'll keep the baby for life and try to retrain him if his racing career doesn't work out -- but if you're breeding to race, then I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't give yourself the best shot possible to end up with a nice horse -- and that starts with nice breeding stock.

doublete
Feb. 26, 2003, 12:00 AM
OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD...
Read my original post. I DID NOT SAY MY MARE OR THE STALLION IM CONSIDERING IS CRAP!!! I simply asked HOW TO ANALYZE BREEDING FOR A RACE HORSE!!!!! Anotherwards, how to do I find a good cross for my mare... Why did this come up?? Because I was offered a breeding. Did I say "oh well I'm gonna only breed to this stallion, and cross my fingers cuz I don't know enough to know if I'm doing well in it or not".. NO!!!
I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly, and hadn't even considered race breeding, because that's not what I was planning on doing, but NOW I'm considering it. Can I afford high stud fees? Probably not. Can you????????????
Do I have to be able to??? NO.... Everyone starts somewhere, contrary to other's beliefs.

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

Rusty Stirrup
Feb. 26, 2003, 04:04 AM
I get the feeling Soup is fairly young. She wants to save all the racehorses and make sure everyone has a happy ending. A noble cause.

Horses, trainers and owners wind up at some of the lesser tracks for many reasons. Do they love their horses any less? Of course not. Do they not have the talent or experience to be at the big name tracks. Most of the ones I know do. In fact it takes a lot of sweat and tears to keep a "less than perfect" horse comfortable enough to even make it to the post. Where do your horses go when they can't make the grade? Any take a bad step and breakdown yet and break your heart?

It's life that brings people to certain places. Besides, some trainers really prefer a small operation at a small, hometown track. Really.

Keep your ideals but this is the real world.

I think Doublete had her mind already made up when the question was posted. Sounds like she did a lot of homework and isn't going into this blind. I too, think there's too much "less than perfect" breeding that goes on, but let's not condemn someone for asking the questions. JMHO

Ride on! Rusty Stirrup

horsepowerco
Feb. 26, 2003, 05:06 AM
Double you going to be around today? I have a few ideas for you...if you're interested. Also send me a picture of your mare if possible. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To love a Thoroughbred is to truely live and enjoy life.

The Fjord Jockey
Feb. 26, 2003, 11:57 AM
Dude, I don't want to save all the racehorses.

I think a lot of them would be better off dead than being in some of the conditions they are in.

I wrote a whole long post but it messed up and I am just too lazy to retype all of it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know there are plenty of nice trainers who lose horses or have them break down. It's happened to us.

My whole point is just to not breed something that, odds are, will have severe conformation probs and be more likely to have issues when it starts racing. And I'm not even referring to doublete.

And yep, you guessed it: still don't like Charles Town. I don't care about the track condition, I never mentioned it. As many of you have said, it's where a lot of slower horses go. And with that crowd of pokey ponies, you're also going to get a crowd of the less stable ones, and more breakdowns. Apparently some of you think that doesn't make sense, but that's what happens. Just because I say that doesn't mean I have a big ass "Save the horses" written on my forehead. It's true. And I don't recall slamming any trainers. I even said that I know a few who run there, AND SO WHAT? The horses are taken care of so why should it bother me? Sheeezz.

*J*
Formerly "The Fjord Jockey"
**Founder of the Jock Stalk Clique**...and so far, no one has joined... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Soup From the Store on Feb. 26, 2003 at 03:07 PM.]

Two Toofs
Feb. 26, 2003, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soup From the Store:
The horses are taken care of so why should it bother me? Sheeezz.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

doublete
Feb. 26, 2003, 10:49 PM
Horsepowerco- Throw the ideas my way!!!!!!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm still very undecided.
SFTS: There won't be any major conformation faults, sorry dear. I'm not stupid, not going to breed for them!!!!!

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.

DMK
Feb. 27, 2003, 08:19 AM
Doublete, in one of your earlier posts you said you couldn't spend $50K on a stud fee, That's fine, because even if you had $50K, I doubt the mar would get a date anyway. Careful selection of mares is how those horses keep justifying that lovely price.

And careful selection is what you need to consider. There are plenty of proven sires in the northeast for far less than $50K. In fact you have to work pretty hard to spend more than $10K outside of FL, CA, and KY.

For instance, Crimson Guard, a son of Danzig who won $282K stands for $2K. He's a freshman sire so you get more bloodline for your buck. Danzatime is another freshman Danzig sire for $2500. For the extra $500 you get Secrettame on the bottom (Gone West's dam).

In the slightly more proven department, you have Storm of Angels, whose $2500 fee seems to pay for itself with a sale average of around $10K.

And oh yea, for $3500 you can breed to one of the top race horses this planet has ever seen; Champion 2 year old, champion 3 year old, champion older male and HOTY, Spectacular Bid. The Bid obviously isn't 1/1000 the sire that he was as a racehorse, but his babies still get to the track (averages around 70% runners, 50% winners), and the yearlings average out at about $6k at the sales, 2 year olds around $22K. More importantly, the Bid has superior conformation and athletic ability, and sport horse people have wondered what he might be like as a performance sire.

When people say "breed the best to the best, and hope for the best" they don't mean everyone should line up at Storm Cat's stall door. But they do mean that you need to optimize any given horse's bloodlines with who you breed the mare to, and you need to cull mares that do not produce. Given what is available for say, less than $50K, it begs the question why one wouldn't approach it from that perspective.

Which nick is best for your mare, who is not long on pedigree or performance is something I don't know. But I do know that given she isn't long on pedigree or performance, the correct sire is all that much more important, and $3500 or less is a small price to pay for optimizing the foal's chances.


As for someone who wondered what would happen if we didn't have all the bottom feeder tracks to send horses to when they couldn't cut it at the bigger tracks? Maybe we sport horse people would have a chance at getting the "slow" horses off the track before they had been run into the ground. Maybe the competition for slots at the available tracks would be fierce enough to reduce a lot of the "less planned" breedings (I got a mare, you got a stallion, let's make us a racehorse!). But it's a moot point, that barn door is closed now.

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein

Flash44
Feb. 27, 2003, 08:43 AM
Doublete - you can obviously provide a great home for a needy ex racer. Go get one instead of breeding one.


Also, remember Xtra Heat! By nothing out of nothing, yet one of the best over the past couple years. Just goes to show you how illogical this game is.

Cherry
Feb. 27, 2003, 10:08 AM
Yes, I thought of Xtra Heat (and Magic Weisner) while reading this post but I did my homework and found out that although her dam was named "Begin" and I'd never heard of her, she did finish "in the money" in five out of twenty-five starts; Xtra Heat's sire was Dixieland Heat by Dixieland Band--not exactly "junk", and he came in thirteen times out of eighteen starts... But breeding two winning race horses together guarantees nothing, and I don't think it increases one's chances of getting a race horse...

Genes are funny--they often fail to "come together" and then sometimes they surprise us in the most wondrous ways... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have been doing research for several years on breeding with regard to the TB race horse...

If you're breeding for the market, yes, the mare had better have a lot of black type in her pedigree--and yes, you had better breed to a "fashionable" sire... That doesn't mean the resulting foal is going to succeed on the track though... I have seen plenty of six figure foals from the prestigious sales running at Penn National, Charles Town, etc...

There are many variables involved in the success of a race horse--the owner, the trainer, finances, luck and a whole host of other things... You might have a Secretariat living in your backyard, but if you don't have the money to send him to a trainer, or to a track to run no one will ever know and he will die in obscurity...

Every week you can pull up the winners of graded stakes races and find one or more unraced, or unplaced mares in their pedigrees... Although the mare may not have run, or placed that does not mean that she does not have the ability to pass that trait on to her foals--look at LaTroienne... She never won one single race and yet she was able to transmit ability to, and through, her foals (Bimelech and Black Helen)... LaTroienne is considered a "blue hen" mare--please click here (http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/archives/bluehen/bluehens.htm) to see her contributions...

Another horse that springs to mind is John Henry--although his parents (sire, Ole Bob Bowers and dam, Joppy) didn't do much as race horses they did both race and actually came in "in the money" a few times--but JH raced 83 times coming in "in the money" a whopping 63 times... He is referred to frequently as having "obscure" bloodlines, but once you go back to his grandparents and great grandparents you will see a veritable who's who of TBs listed... When people offhandedly say, "Oh well, anything past a couple of generations doesn't count toward what a horse is capable of!!!" I cringe... Where do you think JH got his talent??? Did it fall from out of the sky??? I don't think so!!!!

Mr. Taylor of Taylor Made Bloodstock will breed a mare as long as she has a "strong" pedigree regardless of whether a mare has raced or placed... The great TB breeder Tesio never paid much for his mares and yet he bred some of the best TBs of the era...

It just irritates me when people make offhanded comments that they can not back up with fact and then try to pawn it off as "the truth"... The "truth" is that every foal is an individual and that this is America where people are pretty much free to do what they darn well please, much to the consternation of others... I have seen it too often that people want to be free to breed their stock, but the minute someone else wants to do it their stock is run into the ground by someone who has never even seen the horse, much less knows what they are looking at when viewing the pedigree...

Doublete, if you want to breed your mare and are willing to accept the responsiblity for the foal, then have at it... If I am free to breed my mare, who am I to try and stop you from breeding yours???? I applaud you for researching your options and for wanting to make the best decision you can...

There are far more "losers" being cranked out at the breeding farms than at the backyard level, in my opinion... Finances have a way of limiting what the "average" horseman can do at the backyard level... And Doublete is not breeding with the express intention of foisting the responsiblity off on a third party...

Chestnut Mare
Feb. 27, 2003, 10:49 AM
Cherry - Joppy wasn't JH's dam, she was Carry Back's dam (by Saggy out of Joppy, gotta love that one). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And true, John Henry's sire wasn't much, but his dam Once Double had a history of sending winners to the track. They just didn't win $6M against the best company. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He was a wonderful freak of nature, wasn't he?

"Better dead than red?"

horsepowerco
Feb. 27, 2003, 12:45 PM
Isn't Spectacular Bid now dead? or am I thinking of Slew?

To love a Thoroughbred is to truely live and enjoy life.

FairWeather
Feb. 27, 2003, 12:47 PM
no, Bid isnt dead.

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

LaurieB
Feb. 27, 2003, 02:29 PM
...and Slew is.

Beezer
Feb. 28, 2003, 11:07 PM
I was soooooo going to stay out of this. But, alas, I could not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doublete:
Ok, I have been offered a breeding for my mare, which in this current economy, is quite appealing to me.
My mare is a maiden 4 y/o (she raced several times, but raced twice on an injury and therefore didn't do well AT ALL). Her name is Itapuan, she's on Del Mar. The stallion is Full Quiver. He doesn't have much of a race record, and doesn't have any one racing either. The other stallion that I may be able to breed to is Allawinir, who has won more and has racing stock on the track.
So my question is, do you think its a bad idea to give it a try?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, doublete, but I see nothing in your original post asking about "analyzing breeding for a racehorse," as one of your later posts contends. You asked, point blank, "Do you think it's a bad idea to give it a try?"

I think you have your answer to that. Sure, you're free to do what you want with your mare. But you asked what people thought and then your knickers get twisted when folks don't just fall into line and applaud.

If what you were looking for was in-depth analysis of the bloodlines, you should have asked for that. But even though you didn't, you got some good analysis anyway ... which you still took exception to.

Never ask a question if you aren't prepared to dislike the answer.

Dear Romans: All I really want for the Ides of March is flying LEAD CHANGES!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

doublete
Mar. 1, 2003, 09:33 AM
Oh for crying out loud!!! That's over and done with.
But anyways, why would I have included my mare's name and the stallion's name if I wasn't asking for informed answers???????
It doesn't matter now, but 'my knickers' were in a twist because people said I have crap for a horse- which I very clearly don't. And 'should I try' refers to, what are the bad and good points? Generally, when asked a question like that, that is how I would answer anyways. Informed answers are ALWAYS appreciated. Uninformed, ignorant, "your horse is crap, breeding crap to crap is never good" or the classic "you get what you pay for" quite interesting considering my current situation, that is really none of your business but proof positive that it doesn't take a million bucks to get a very nice, good quality (and not on my judgement alone, which apparently you all think I have none, since my mare is crap) horse... Oh my, for free????
It doesn't matter anyways...

Retraining and rehabbing Off Track TB's.