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View Full Version : Jumping outside of lessons - spinoff from H/J thread



eventer_mi
Jan. 15, 2010, 03:17 PM
I was just reading that thread on the H/J forum with great interest. It seems (based on the number of posts) that quite a few hunter barns do NOT allow jumping outside of a lesson situation. I have never, ever been to a barn that has these kinds of restrictions, and I've boarded at some pretty darn nice places, too. One of them was even a strictly H/J place (many moons ago) and we were all encouraged to practice jumping outside of our lessons. We all helped each other out, too.

Now, I can see why you wouldn't want to jump without another body available to call 911, but surely if it were a safety issue it wouldn't matter if you were in a lesson or not.

Without hunter bashing (please!), I'm curious - do YOU board at a barn that discourages jumping outside of a lesson situation? Is it really because of an insurance situation (which I'm finding hard to buy since eventers tend to have solid, xc jumps that we practice over on a regular basis - surely that would be more in insurance than just poles in an arena?)?

For the record, I have boarded at numerous barns, all different in quality/atmosphere, all different TYPES of barns (H/J, western, eventing, mix) and I have never been told that I cannot jump outside of a lesson. I will also confess to jumping without anybody else present, but if I limited my riding to only those times someone else was around, i'd never ride.

Wee Dee Trrr
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:00 PM
I ONLY jump when there is someone around to check on me if I fall... but other than that I jump whenever I feel like it. And if I were at a barn that implemented a rule where I could not jump unless in a lesson, I would be prompted to leave. There are a couple reasons for that...

1. I don't have the money to lesson enough to accomplish goals without jumping on my own.
2. flatwork gets boring! and even if I just did dressage for 30 mins sometimes it's irresistible to pop over a few tiny fences in my dressage saddle. :lol:

All that being said... I've been riding for 15 years, am confident about my abilities, and I know my limitations.

Lone
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:17 PM
The barn I'm moving to tomorrow will be the first place I've ever boarded with that restriction.

The only reason I'm moving is because a) my mare is lame and can't jump anyway! and b) they have a field with a shed where she can live outside 24/7 and c) it's going to be a short term, couple month thing until I move.

However, I would be very hard pressed to ever move to a barn with a no jumping out side of lesson rule if I was actually riding.

Edit to Add- it's worth noting that we're moving to a mostly h/j barn, though there are some people there of various disciplines.

Donkey
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:26 PM
I'm at a barn where all the boarders lesson regularly (1 flat and 1 jumping lesson per week). We can jump outside of a lesson and do so when the trainer is away BUT the belief that the trainer (therefor students ;)) adhere to is that there are a limited number of jumps in a horse's career so any jumping effort better be worth it hence there is rarely any jumping outside of lessons.

I used to board at a barn where the norm was one lesson a week rotating between flat and jumping. You were expected to jump school outside of lessons.

I could go either way but I prefer to jump during lessons than on my own (someone to set the fences ;))

nagatha
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:54 PM
I don't know if I would want to board somewhere that tells me how, when and where to ride.

After 8 years of riding just Dressage I now ride at a barn geared to Eventing. I ride a free lease (for which I am very greatful) and I am having a blast. I had not Jumped a horse in almost 25 years and this mare has opened up a whole new world for me.

We are allowed to jump anytime we please. Of course I only do it when there are others around to pick up the pieces (me) if I blow it. The only rule we have to obey is the use of the x-c jumps: never go up there alone and vest and helmet have to be worn.

I can't wait for spring so I can get up into those fields again. I tried a few of the smaller fences last fall and really had a great time. I'm supposed to be old enough to know better but I would love to try a mini horse-trial / event.

deltawave
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:34 PM
That rule exists at the barn where I take lessons. I'm OK with it. The older I get, the less I want to jump by myself anyhow.

yellowbritches
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:47 PM
We do not have any rules or restrictions about jumping outside of lessons and we don't discourage it. We do actually encourage people to play over things. And that's what most of our people do when I see them jumping outside their lessons...playing over Xs and smaller fences to break up the monotony of dressage or to work on their rhythm or just because it's fun. Most serious schooling is done in lessons, though.

We did have a client for awhile who was just NOT smart about jumping and would often jump her horses the very first ride back after not riding for a week or two and would often blast through a full gymnastic without any prep or warm up (no matter how many times we told her neither thing was good for her horses' brains or bodies). Her horses were saints and she was lucky. All of our current clients know better than to do those kind of things. :yes:

teddygirl
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:49 PM
I board at a barn that allows different trainers, and allows jumping outside lessons. I've had a trainer suggest I jump only in lessons, but I feel that I need to jump more often than I can afford to do lessons. Also, if you never jump outside lessons, how will you learn to think your way around a course. That said, I never jump without another person around for safety, and I tend to jump lower and easier stuff outside lessons.

Guyot
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:30 PM
Well I do have jumping rules at my barn. There is NO jumping without someone else on the farm, myself included (barn owner, trainer). Also, there is NO jumping if you are under 18 outside of a lesson, unless your own personal parent is there to supervise. Another kids parent is not acceptable, etc.

I've had some kids do some stupid things... like jumping a 13.2hh pony over 4 foot fence bareback with no bridle... they survived but I was NOT happy! Course, kid did it again with parent setting fences, but at least the parent was taking the responsiblity at that point. :eek::lol:

Point of fact is that the owner is allowed to make choices about their own animal, but at some point I have to have some input because the horse is in my custody and control, therefore ultimately it is my liability, so my rules on my farm.

HeyJealousy
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:42 PM
Well I do have jumping rules at my barn. There is NO jumping without someone else on the farm, myself included (barn owner, trainer). Also, there is NO jumping if you are under 18 outside of a lesson, unless your own personal parent is there to supervise. Another kids parent is not acceptable, etc.

I wish more barns had the rule about under 18. I've boarded at several facilities where the kids were running around on their unschooled horses jumping over fences way beyond their experience level. I think it's a good idea to have some sort of structure in the barn about jumping outside of lessons. However, I've never boarded anywhere that forbade it outside of lessons...and I don't think I would.

Ruperman
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:58 PM
I was raised on several different farms throughout the US (Mom's job made us move) that there was no jumping unless in a lesson if under 18-21. Last barn I was at was all adult amateurs and professionals, I was the only kid. That barn had no jumping rules, just use common sense.

I started teaching pony club lessons at a different barn this summer and found that ANY adult (18 year old nanny driver counted) could stand in to watch a rider jump. I just don't understand this from a parental prospective. (I'm 21, no kids fyi) I'm talking about 8-16 year olds jumping on their own. I taught these 8-16 year olds and in their lessons they would tell me they were afraid to jump, etc, etc, and we would conquer their fears in the lessons. Happy kids. Then, I would walk in to the barn, and their mom/dad/grandparent is setting fences. The next lesson they are terrified again because they've fallen off, the horse stopped, lots of crying, don't want to ride xyz horse etc etc, and the lesson hasn't even started.

Other things are lost as well, like that they used to canter or did a jumping course in a lesson with me, but since they were able to do it on their own with people who don't know ADMITTEDLY don't know anything about jumping, or horses for that matter, these kids didn't go back to square one, they were in negative squares, but no one saw this as a result of being ale to jump whatever/whomever/whenever/where ever they wanted. Am I the only one who remembers these are 1000 pound (or so) animals that have a mind of their own?!

This is my biggest pet peeve. (Hello, obvious danger factor!!) I tried to talk to the barn owners, but "you [me] are taking away all of the fun from the children and riding". Mind you, this is a self-proclaimed PONY CLUB barn.

VicariousRider
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:01 PM
I grew up riding H/J and most barns did not allow jumping outside of lessons. I always assumed that it was because I was under 18. I recall the "adults" being allowed to jump outside of lessons. Also, when I was a h/j rider I was very dependent on my trainer. To my knowledge, very few h/j's would go to a show or even warm up without their trainer. I never would have dreamed of it (and I know how alien that is to most eventers!)

BUT the most restrictive jumping policy I have ever heard of was at a BN EVENTER's barn (multiple international titles & medals) who said that anyone in his program was not allowed to jump outside of lessons because he didn't want them to "undo" the work that they did with him in lessons. A bit controlling, perhaps, but he did get results!

a_quick_one
Jan. 15, 2010, 11:22 PM
I wish more barns had the rule about under 18. I've boarded at several facilities where the kids were running around on their unschooled horses jumping over fences way beyond their experience level.

The barn I rode at in HS had that rule - but there were multiple adults that could barely stay on jumping their unschooled horses. It's not just kids that are an issue! Whereas I, very competent, on the most dead broke horse to ever be dead broke (he was a former open jumper who was laaaazy and the most bombproof thing I've ever sat on), was not allowed to jump a crossrail. Drove me nuts! And then a year after I turned 18, it changed to 21. The rule was because of insurance, but it seemed silly because there were people that shouldn't be jumping period doing it when I was far more capable but couldn't.

My current barn doesn't have any limitations - they prefer you don't go out and jump xc without a groundsperson, but it's not a set rule. We're all pretty well behaved, though.

bip
Jan. 15, 2010, 11:30 PM
The older I get, the less I want to jump by myself anyhow.

Me too. I've been at barns with that rule and barns w/o. The benefit of a barn w/that rule is that kids aren't careening around out of control over endless jumps - though sometimes the result is that there are A LOT of lessons with students careening around out of control anyway, lol.

lstevenson
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:39 AM
A long time ago I boarded at a barn that would only let riders jump on Thursdays. :confused: They were also closed on the 1st and 15th of each month.

What is it with crazy barn owners?

I think it's quite common in the hunter world for riders to not jump unless they are in a lesson. I've not heard of any eventing barns that have that rule.

Viva
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:08 AM
I know of many barns (h/j) in our area that don't allow jumping outside of lessons. I allow and encourage it with my students. My philosophy is, I don't want your first time thinking for yourself to be out on cross country at a competition, so you need to practice. I do set parameters and suggest things to work on between lessons, and my students are very respectful of that.

kt-rose
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:35 AM
That rule exists at the barn where I take lessons. I'm OK with it. The older I get, the less I want to jump by myself anyhow.

Agreed :lol::lol::lol: !! I'm over 50 but really prefer to jump anything sizeable with adult supervision during my lessons -- try hard for once a week. I do like to set some sort of small gymastic type exercise one other day a week so that rule would make me unhappy and bored.

Ajierene
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:45 AM
When I was growing up, the barn I first started riding at was hunter/eq and western pleasure/trail. There were no rules about when you could jump, but the trainer was pretty much there at any time any child would likely be riding. Even if the rider was not in a lesson, she had no problems yelling at someone doing something they were not supposed to be doing.

We also had the philosophy that 'each horse has only so many jumps' and generally did not jump more than twice a week. Once in a lesson, once outside. Sometimes just once in a lesson. This excluded anything under 2ft. Mostly crossrails that were popped over just to have a bit of fun while flatting.

Since I moved, there have also not been any rules about when you were allowed to jump, but I was really the only one jumping. Where I am now, I am the only boarder that rides on a regular basis - the only one at the farm that rides on a regular basis. I would prefer to jump when someone was within site, but if I restricted my work to that, then I would never get anything done.

The jumps where I am now do not go higher than 3ft and that's only two. The other ones do not go higher than 2'6". That was because the owner was afraid her daughter and friends would try to do to much and injure themselves or their horses. That was many years ago when they used to ride all the time.

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:14 AM
I have about 8-9 jumps at home that I set up every spring, and I rarely use them. :lol: Once in a while my farrier comes over and I give him a lesson or something, and I'll do grids by myself, but I just never feel as safe jumping by myself. I don't really need a "trainer" all the time, but I do like to have a ground person, at least.

clivers
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:57 AM
I usually ride alone and have to jump outside of lessons as I can't take as many lessons as I'd like/need to. I usually practice over smaller versions of the exercises we've been doing in lessons, and save the bigger jumps for when I have company.

Interestingly, I've been wondering whether too much time spent on teeny tiny jumps is making the more "normal" sized jumps look huge by comparison whereas if I just focussed on my flat work I might be more out of practice but less impressed by the stuff we jump in lessons!!

cranky
Jan. 16, 2010, 02:42 PM
We're allowed to jump outside of ours as long as you're not alone. However, I don't know if she has different rules for kids. I think there are also people she has asked not to jump outside of lessons too, either because they're riding a green horse or they're not quite ready or whatever. The riders at our barn respect our trainer's opinion, so I don't think anyone has hard feelings about this, or tries to get around what is requested.

I haven't done too much jumping outside of lessons myself. A little bit here and there, mostly to mix up a ride, school over something specific (like the ditch) or work on balance, pace & rhythm between a couple of jumps. I always keep it small and would never attempt something that I haven't already done a number of times with my trainer first. If I'm doing it on my own, I prefer to keep it a level or so below what I'm schooling with the trainer. I haven't been back at this all that long yet, I have a relatively young horse and I don't want to over-jump her. I do think, however, that I need to jump a little more for my own confidence. If I haven't jumped in a little while and am faced with a jumping lesson, I find myself getting a little freaked out. I think if I jumped a little more often I wouldn't build it up in my head so much.

findeight
Jan. 16, 2010, 03:35 PM
Just to be fair here, I once rode at a barn with a very BBBBBNT Eventer next door...and his sudents never jumped outside of a coaching session/lesson. Stadium, gymnastics or CC, never without the coach.

I have most often been in show barns and shown on the National level so cannot see the point of regularly jumping outside of lessons when I have to go against the top level horses in the country when I show-at considerable cost. While it's not unheard of for advanced clients to be allowed to work a few low verticals into their flatwork, nobody jumps anything without the coach/trainer. No serious courses outside of a lesson...and nobody even wants to. Not because they are insecure either-most are pretty good and want to avoid starting bad habits as well as get better.

My trainers even have the other trainer, if available, as a ground person when they school.

I think there is very good reasoning behind top level training barns owned/managed by trainers restricting jumping. Not the least of which are overjumping the horses that do not need it, tearing up elaborate and expensive sets of show style jumps and the risk of idiot clients overfacing themselves or not warming up the horse fully then trying to jump around at 4'.

BOARDING barns, meaning those without a resident trainer and not concentrating on top level show riders can be more lenient. Most of their clients are just out for fun or starting out, not spending a bundle to be perfect.

Thames Pirate
Jan. 16, 2010, 03:56 PM
Our barn restricts jumping for minors, but otherwise there are no restrictions. Most (all?) of us have the sense not to jump alone (actually, all of us), and really the manager lives just beyond the arena (technically not on the property, but she can see the arena better from her house than we can from the barn) and there is frequently a resident in the apartment--and we have a few pros at our barn, so it's hard to be alone.

I can't afford regular lessons, so I do a lot of practice on my own. I alternate exercises I (or others of my level) have been doing in lessons, exercises I have been taught/read, and just jumping courses. I try to alternate jumping up with lower stuff so I don't get out of the habit of jumping up, but usually I only jump up a handful of fences. I never jump more than twice a week. I only get a lesson about every month if I'm lucky.

Anyway, I have seen the rule, and I don't like it. I think there's some sense in being CAUTIOUS about jumping outside of lessons, but rules about that kind of thing annoy me to no end.

Viva
Jan. 16, 2010, 06:16 PM
"I think there is very good reasoning behind top level training barns owned/managed by trainers restricting jumping. Not the least of which are overjumping the horses that do not need it, tearing up elaborate and expensive sets of show style jumps and the risk of idiot clients overfacing themselves or not warming up the horse fully then trying to jump around at 4'.
BOARDING barns, meaning those without a resident trainer and not concentrating on top level show riders can be more lenient. Most of their clients are just out for fun or starting out, not spending a bundle to be perfect.[/QUOTE]

Findeight, I think this is really insulting and disrespectful. I trust my clients not to be "idiots" and they don't act like idiots. Rather than "spending a bundle to be perfect," they practice and practice and make mistakes until they become more perfect. Which makes them less dependent on me. Which makes them riders, not passengers. Which means I'm doing my job as a trainer.

yventer
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:02 PM
I don't have a boarding/lesson barn, so all my clients/students are off-site. I've never entertained the thought of prohibiting them from jumping outside a lesson, but I'm sure I'll meet that client eventually. ;-> I *do* give them homework to do on their own time, stating the exercises and heights involved.

To date, and without exception, I've been blessed with clients/students who have enough sense not to go hog-wild jumping on their own. In my lessons, I teach a lot about correct pace, balance, approach and rider postition. I also talk about popping over the log on the trail, as I encourage everyone to go out and RIDE. I teach (potential) EVENTERS, so we talk about keeping their balance over various obstacles, and making decisions about how to safely handle terrain problems. If I had a bunch of teenagers as clients, instead of "mature" people, I might have a problem!!

I also encourage them to do gymnastic exercises on their own, but at very low heights, as it's not the height of the jump that's important, it's the control and accuracy. I give them various exercises to use, in the lessons.

And if, occasionally, one of my clients goes off on their own jumping "spree", I usually hear about it in the next lesson. Either with guilty countenance, or joy at what they did. Then we have a talk about what they risked vs. achieved. As I said, most of my clients are adults, and I'm only there to educate and guide their choices.

*If* I was running a lesson barn, I *might* enact a "no jumping outside of lessons rule", especially for minors no matter how many parents were there. Insurance is really expensive, but neccesary. In this litigious society, I can see needing that prohibition. That's one of the reasons I *don't* have a lesson barn! :->>>

Toadie's mom
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:36 PM
One of the reasons why I wanted my own place. BUT, having said that I don't jump my green, or new horses unless someone is there on "standby". Even with Bella (who's just now comfortable cantering a course of 2'6" fences) I only jump gymnastic lines or the 2'6" she's comfortable with by myself. If I want to challenge her (either by height, or a new obstacle) I wait until we're in a lesson.

CookiePony
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:44 PM
Interestingly, I've been wondering whether too much time spent on teeny tiny jumps is making the more "normal" sized jumps look huge by comparison whereas if I just focussed on my flat work I might be more out of practice but less impressed by the stuff we jump in lessons!!

I have thought the same thing!

ETA: I board at my trainer's small barn and she encourages me to jump on my own, in moderation, between lessons.

pday09
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:58 PM
My old barn did not allow lesson students on school horses jump unless they were in a lesson (so not during "practice rides" they earned by working at the barn, or paid for schooling) and that I understand because they a) don't want kids to be jumping without an adult present and b) don't want the school horses to get lame because they're being over worked or over jumped. But if you're riding your own horse, I don't get it- once you sign a release, you can't sue the facility if you or the horse get injured. So why does it matter if you release the facility from all liability? (I don't know anything about the legality, so forgive me if theres something dumb I'm not understanding.)

eponacowgirl
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:00 PM
Jumping is allowed outside of lessons at my barn. Sometimes I wish that it weren't but I'm not afraid to tell one of my students that they're being stupid or dangerous OR say "I'm not going to offer you advice because you're not in a lesson at the moment, but I would highly suggest you stop working on that particular thing without my supervision for the moment." I'll coach my kids outside of a lesson, but it irritates my adults when I do that, so I don't do it- just try to keep them from getting killed.

Incidentally, my resolution for this year was to make sure I was jumping 2'6" or higher at home every time I have a jump school. The jumps are usually set at 2' for my students and I tend to be lazy and keep it at those. Both of my horses are showing BN and schooling N and I NEED to make sure I'm jumping height so I don't scare myself at shows.

yventer
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:42 PM
Quote: <But if you're riding your own horse, I don't get it- once you sign a release, you can't sue the facility if you or the horse get injured.>

Yes you CAN, and many DO! Ask any insurance company! Even if the form says you can't (won't) sue, of course you still can. You might lose, but many people are willing to take it on in court. And the riding establishment has to pay to defend itself, even if the judgement ends up in its favor.

If the waiver form was an air-tight guarantee that the establishment couldn't be sued, then we professionals wouldn't need additional insurance!

eventer_mi
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:47 PM
BOARDING barns, meaning those without a resident trainer and not concentrating on top level show riders can be more lenient. Most of their clients are just out for fun or starting out, not spending a bundle to be perfect.

Ahhh, I see - that makes sense. This is the first time I've ever been at a training barn vs. boarding barn. I'm still allowed to do whatever I want outside of a lesson at my current training barn, but I can understand why a trainer might want to limit the jumping.

deltawave
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:11 PM
once you sign a release, you can't sue Oh, SO not true. :)

Viva
Jan. 17, 2010, 08:03 AM
I definitely do think there's a difference between jumping outside of lessons and jumping alone--I don't allow people to jump with no one there, and kids aren't allowed to jump without an adult present (and I get to say whether a particular adult is sufficient, so nobody's clueless Aunt Marge who's visiting for the day can be the chaperone). I don't jump if I'm on the property by myself either, and they know that.
And if there's a student who isn't ready to jump outside of lessons, I say so, and help them understand why. This has worked really well for me. Once again, respect and dialogue go a long way toward creating thinking horsemen, not just passengers.

EventingJ
Jan. 17, 2010, 08:14 AM
It is getting harder and harder to find a barn that does NOT restrict jumping to lessons only in this area. But I would say the majority of the barns around here are also h/j oriented. :) I never jump alone (I don't like riding alone much, but my steeds have all been green) but I could not imagine having my horse somewhere where i NEEDED to be in a lesson to be able to jump... especially with a green horse, where I want the oppurtunity to set up a little crossrail, or something we've been working on (gymnastics, etc) in between dressage and/or flat schooling.

Kairoshorses
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:07 AM
I keep my ponies at home, but I really hated to jump w/o someone there.

I finally decided that, to get comfortable/build "muscle memory", I was going to have to jump more (I can only get a lesson about 1 x month).

So I set up some grids and some jumps of varying sizes--from cross rail to just over 3'. And I try to really concentrate on my position as I do just a few (6-12) about 2-3 x a week.

I just had a lesson, and my trainer commented on how my leg never looked better! She said "whatever you're doing at home, KEEP DOING IT!".

:-)

asterix
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:37 AM
Most of their clients are just out for fun or starting out, not spending a bundle to be perfect.

Well, I think this is a fundamental difference between H/J and eventing.

If you asked 100 eventers at every level what they would spend a bundle on if they won the lottery, not ONE would say "to be perfect."

This is just not a part of the eventing mindset. What is FAR more important than "perfect" is "effective" -- and I do not see how you can be effective on courses which you must ride without any prep, with light and terrain that may vary (try walking your course at the end of the day, the only time you have between when it opens and when you must ride it, in dry weather, only to come back and ride it in the morning, in the mud. It's not the same course. You've GOT to think on your feet!)....if you never have to think for yourself over fences at home.

I am AT a barn with a serious trainer, and while many boarders are not competition-oriented, I most certainly am. Like others, I don't jump alone, and I'm far too much of a wimp to jump anything outside my very comfy comfort zone without a trainer -- I don't want to screw anything up I can't fix on my own, right then and there. But, yes, jumping simple things in the ring? Hacking out with friends and popping over xc fences a level down from competition? Heck, if I waited for my trainer to be available to xc school OFF property I'd go once a year -- friends and I will often buddy up and go play -- again, within our comfort zone.

I would find it both offensive to be told what is "allowed" with a horse I own and care for, and damaging to my ability to make decisions and assess situations out on course, if I never ever jumped outside of a lesson.

But I do think it's very different discipline-to-discipline, and I don't mean to suggest that if you are a hunter program where every competition starts with a trainer ride or a warmup class over the same course you will compete on that you would value this type of independence.

findeight
Jan. 17, 2010, 02:57 PM
Viva, I meant no disrespect and was not referring to anybody in particular, just speaking in a general sense.

I have been in about 20 different boarding and training barns on both coasts and in the middle over 45 years now. 3 different disciplines as well. I feel I have enough experience to generalize a little and in 99% of those barns there was always somebody...Whether some kid hopping on and failing to do even a lap at anything under a gallop or a know it all adult, there is always somebody who will ruin it for everybody else, along with breaking stuff and putting the horse out of commission (then blaming the trainer for bad footing or something).

But it's true Hunters are judged on the trip and being perfect is the goal. Not for everybody. But once you get to 3' and up and the rated shows, very few jump much at home at all, much less outside of a lesson. Different strokes.

Alot of trainers have been sued for simple falls during lessons, no need to add to that by unsupervised jumping. Not to mention the insurance company of the injured decides whether or not to sue whether said injured party wants to or not.

cssutton
Jan. 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
I always snicker when I read these "can you jump without your trainer" threads.

I don't show and I don't event, so I can speak my mind.

Horses were really meant to carry man over the countryside. As a means of transportation, as a cavalry man's conveyance, as an officer's mount.

As a foxhunter's mount.

Today, the foxhunter is the only one left that really rides cross country over obstacles.

How can anyone develop confidence in his own ability unless he rides cross country and occasionally alone?

If the trainer owns the horse, he calls the shots. If the rider owns the horse and pays the bills, he should call the shots.

If the horse is ruined, the rider/owner pays the price; not just in money but in the loss of a good horse, the pain of being made a fool, etc., and if he is worth his salt, learns from it and does not repeat the same mistakes.

Ride cross country by yourself. It is a lot of fun and it gets you back to the basics of horsemanship. You have to pick the right spot to cross that stream. You have to dismount, open gates and mount again with cattle milling all around your horse.

It will be good for both of you.

CSSJR

findeight
Jan. 18, 2010, 09:53 AM
How can anyone develop confidence in his own ability unless he rides cross country and occasionally alone?

Ride cross country by yourself. It is a lot of fun and it gets you back to the basics of horsemanship. You have to pick the right spot to cross that stream. You have to dismount, open gates and mount again with cattle milling all around your horse.

It will be good for both of you.



Bingo. I never said not to do this and I certainly have done it. More as a young adult then now, of course. Even on my show horse whatever discipline I was doing at the time. Used to ride a young WP mare out with a gal on a "Natural Mane and Tail" ASB-like, too hot for 3 gaited. Talk about an odd couple ambling along a hillside.;).

More people need to do it IF they have access. Get away from the barn and out of the dam ring...that pretty much solves the problem. Learn more jumping logs on uneven terrain anyway...and nothing like a brisk gallop up and down hills to get those heels down and tighten the leg.

inquisitive
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:42 AM
I have never been at a barn that PROHIBITS it, but have been at many that DISCOURAGE it (though not expressly).

I currently don't really jump outside of lessons anyway because:
1. My gelding already has soundness issues and the least amount of jumping I can do is the best

2. Even though I would call myself an experienced rider, I ride better when I have someone 'yelling' at me. My lessons are twice as effective as my riding on my own because I get pushed that much more.

Why put in a good school when I can wait for a great one if my boy doesn't need to (and would be better off not doing it) jump more than once a week?

XC schooling is a 50-50. Sometimes I go alone (with a groundsperson but not trainer) and sometimes I go with a trainer, depending on what I need to accomplish.

I don't think this limits my ability to think on my own or feel comfortable by myself. I don't think I am any less confident when I don't have my trainer by my side (he rarely comes to events), but I'd rather have that expert opinion when I am doing just that, training.

ETA, I have lesson with my H/J trainer at least once a week, sometimes a second time in a group (where jumps are just 2' and we practice all the 'in between', not necessarily height because many are lower-level). I could see how someone who can't lesson that often frequently has to jump outside of lessons.

LaraNSpeedy
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:46 AM
Getting sued is a lot more common now than 10-30 years ago and of course before that.... When I was a kid - I jumped double bareback without a helmet and galloped XC with a string around my horse's neck jumping and without a helmet.

I would DIE if my daughter tried to do that.

BUT really, what it is - is - for instance, in Europe, I have read some articles about lawsuits that have closed jumping barns that have been open more then 40 years because of someone falling off and sueing the barn. The barns cant afford the insurance anymore.

I think its just the times we live in..... for us adults we may not be used to it but if you were running a huge barn and letting everyone in who are willing to pay the board etc - and paying the insurance etc - you might go that route to protect yourself. I see a lot of barns that do that.

I run a very small barn and to deal with this - all my riders must belong to the riding club in order to board here. They subscribe to all my philosophies. They can jump when not in a lesson - but only if an adult is there and all adults know what the kids are allowed to do and not do when they jump - so no one is racing around or doing something they shouldnt. Like there is a limit to how high they can raise the fence - they have to trot their corners if I say so - they have to limit the amount of jumps they jump (like 15-20 minutes of jumping and otherwise, I cant be there to see if they are running their horses down - plus this encourages them to put their flatwork first) and by no means, no cantering in the open fields unless I am at least there - like no parents can babysit that. To me, that is where the biggest problems happen.

But if I had experienced adults - whereas most long time horsepeople adults can often BE an assistant trainer if they wanted to put their minds to it - so in some ways - that would be difficult to control. I would still have a set of rules and guidelines to make sure the rider did not do anything dangerous because even if they sign a waiver - I am still in jeopardy possibly if they get hurt.

deltawave
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:53 AM
How can anyone develop confidence in his own ability unless he rides cross country and occasionally alone?


That's what I spent my first 30 years doing. Now that I'm almost halfway done with the next 30 years, adding a little caution/precaution makes sense for me. :)

KBG Eventer
Jan. 18, 2010, 01:57 PM
When I was younger I did not understand why barns would prohibit jumping outside of lessons, but I definitely understand their reasoning now.

I've never been at a barn like that though, and I definitely jump outside of lessons out of necessity. I'm also a minor. I board at dressage barn, and no one else jumps. My dad and I built our own standards, bought and painted PVC poles, and brought them to the barn. However I can't think of a time when at least one person wasn't on the property when I jumped. 98% of the time one of my parents is there.

cssutton
Jan. 18, 2010, 02:24 PM
That's what I spent my first 30 years doing. Now that I'm almost halfway done with the next 30 years, adding a little caution/precaution makes sense for me. :)

I am 81.

I just got an OTTB that I am just beginning to school.

I ride cross country on almost every ride.

That is what a horse is for.

As for lawsuits, I care not what you are told, you are in a lot more jeopardy if someone gets hurt with you standing there telling them what to do than if that person gets hurt out of sight and off your property.

If that person is on your property, it is more of a problem.

But it was not my intention to tell a boarding barn how to run their business. That is up to them.

But I would encourage riders to ride for fun and if they can't do the things they consider fun at their present barn, it is time to move on.

Of course I assume that I am posting to persons 14 or 15 years and older and who have ridden enough that they are knowledgeable.

Riding cross country is fun.

It is hard to ride one full hour in a ring. I can ride 4 hours cross country and enjoy every minute of it.

CSSJR

deltawave
Jan. 18, 2010, 02:30 PM
God bless and may you continue to enjoy your rides. :)

Please don't misunderstand me, though--when I say "a little precaution makes sense to me" that doesn't mean I will only ride in a ring and jump with someone watching. :) But I do a lot less crazy stuff than I did when I was fourteen. Haven't galloped a roach-maned Shetland down the driveway with my books in one hand, minus tack, in thirty years. :D

I sympathize with barn owners who are trying to keep things as safe as possible, and I sympathize with those who want to jump outside of lessons. I don't altogether take either "side"--my feeling is that it makes sense for barn owners to make reasonable restrictions AND it's also good for people to "just ride" and that includes jumping. :yes:

WW_Queen
Jan. 18, 2010, 03:53 PM
I can see both sides of the coin, where there are rules in place to protect those who are uneducated or not experienced enough to make appropriate decisions when it comes to jumping. (Especially in today's litigious society!)

Horsepeople of any experience can make mistakes or can have a horse perform a jump incorrectly that results in an accident. It doesn't matter if you're working on the flat or jumping, the potential for problems is still there.

Moving to a barn is like moving into any new community....there are laws and standards you must abide by or you'll be miserable. If jumping independently is important to you, then make that a priority.

Sure, so many of us rode helmetless/galloped cross-country bareback/etc. when we were younger. However times have changed, and we have knowledge about safety/injury/prevention that we didn't have access to before. Just because "us" on this BB did those things and are here to tell the tale, it doesn't mean there aren't countless others who died/received permanent injury out there. :(