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View Full Version : Critique needed, pretty please



msrobin
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:28 PM
I am looking at this horse and want to get your thoughts about him. I see a few things at the canter that seem odd.
He is an 18h TB 10 yrs old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_9YyS4SfSg


Thank you.

CoolMeadows
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:44 PM
His canter's funny to the left especially. When I've had ones that come in with a canter like this, they've always had an issue with one limb moving too slowly and causing that almost out of sync movement. A couple have been stone bruises up front, one was pedal osteitis and a few have been either SI or hock issues.

Something isn't moving at the right time though to cause that look... I'd check out his left hock, it looks like there may be slightly less movement in it than his right. It could be a front end issue with some hind end compensation too. If you vet him, I'd be interested in what his hocks and feet look like. Or he could just move that way and rebalancing him up off his front end could make a world of difference. He's a good boy to the jumps, isn't he?

goldponies
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:46 PM
OK I'll bite. Looks like a 4 beat canter, then it's a three, then it's a 4 etc. Hate when I lilke the horse but don't like the rider. Plz say it's not you! This horse looks fun but not getting the best ride/training. Might be totally different with sometime out of the frame, off his forehand, mouth quieter, poll/neck different. Allowed to move forward. Not a bad jump.

In_
Jan. 15, 2010, 03:01 PM
Good lord - something is not right with that horse's front left. Very stabby.

Bless his temperment, but some vet will have a challenge (and his/her child's college tuition paid) with this horse.

dmj
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:03 PM
agree w goldponies and goodness, that horse is looong and strung out. Rider doing him no favors. Really sweet horse who appears to be willing/able to put up with anything...I like him :)

Trees4U
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
He looks a little backsore/hocksore to me. On left lead canter, rider is in seat and pumping-right lead he is in 2 pt. O/f- horse starts quiet but by the video end, rider is riding him like a jumper. Is he being sold as a hunter or jumper?

msrobin
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:11 PM
Thanks to everyone that responded. The rider is definitely not me! I was shocked that they even let him ride for the video. Just watching it worried me to death. lol

I have not seen him in person as his movement was bothering me. They are asking 8500 for him, which I feel is over priced. His jump is quite nice ,but it is the rest that scares me. Such a shame and the rider seems as though there is nothing wrong. ????

RugBug
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
Thanks to everyone that responded. The rider is definitely not me! I was shocked that they even let him ride for the video. Just watching it worried me to death. lol

I have not seen him in person as his movement was bothering me. They are asking 8500 for him, which I feel is over priced. His jump is quite nice ,but it is the rest that scares me. Such a shame and the rider seems as though there is nothing wrong. ????

I don't like:

1) his trot...looked stabby the moment he picked up the trot
2) the canter: he's either sore or being ridden in a 4 beat canter
3) his jump...it's m'eh
4) canter didn't improve with the more forward for jumping
5) his size...it's just begging for problems, IMO
6) his feet look tiny in comparison to his size
7) his price

I'd pass without a second thought.

Mamy
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:47 PM
I just saw this horse on another board(He was listed for $7500 there). I was not thrilled with his canter at all. I could not quite put my finger on it... I'd like to see him with a different rider, but I'm not sure that would be any better.

enjoytheride
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:45 PM
That rider is enormously tall, if that horse is 18 hands the guy has to be 10 feet tall at least.

tidy rabbit
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:03 PM
I bet it would be a totally different horse under a different rider. If that is the the horse's regular rider, no wonder the horse looks stiff and jacked up. I couldn't even stand to watch it. The horse is a complete saint to be so quiet under such a tremendous jockey.

Calvincrowe
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:38 PM
Conformationally, I don't care for him--long, long back. His rider is, um, not helpful to the overall presentation of the horse. I would like to see him better presented. I didn't see soreness so much as long, strung out and being ridden far to "long and low". But, I'm no expert. He is pretty darn saint-like!

enjoytheride
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:58 PM
In addition I think he's ugly. All long parts strung together and an odd canter.

FlashGordon
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:05 PM
Who knows if he is just bridle lame, given the busy nature of the rider.... or if he's got something going on... Would love to see him with a very quiet rider who really gets him going forward.

Though he looks awfully kind and tolerant.

Beethoven
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:13 PM
I bet it would be a totally different horse under a different rider. If that is the the horse's regular rider, no wonder the horse looks stiff and jacked up. I couldn't even stand to watch it. The horse is a complete saint to be so quiet under such a tremendous jockey.

Ditto this. The horse is stuck so far behind the leg it is hard to even get a sense of his true self. I am betting the horse has some soundness issues, but I think the rider is not helping it look sound.

Umm yea...that hurt my eyes...

greyshowjumper
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:35 PM
What's his front legs look like up close? Is he over at the knee? Somethings funny about his front legs. YUcK! Rider needs to find another job. He is riding that large horse as though it is a 15 hand QH in a AQHA show. The animal doesn't look right cantering that slow. When he asked for more, he actually got to use his body better. Plus, he needs to lay off his mouth, let him figure out to use himself. Too long of a back for me too. Pass on this guy unfortunately. If you are bent struck on him, have a PPE done and ask for another rider to see if he moves better. Good luck

sp56
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:39 PM
He looks sweet - but sweet only gets so far. I'm gonna guess this rider is in a very light half seat because he has a sore back and a really uncomfortable canter. He's a big, long horse, with a low set neck and a bit high and straight behind which isn't a great combo. It looks like he has some conformation issues on his front feet as well.

He's a good soul but I'd pass...unless you're willing to do some maintenance stuff when you get him and give him a little time off to help his back end.

Best of luck to you.

naturalequus
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:40 PM
Yikes. It is hard to say about the horse itself, though he looks decent enough (a confo pic would really help). He looks like a real honest sweetheart too, he is trying so hard!! For a 10yo though I am not impressed with his training level and he is definitely over-priced, particularly in this economy. I have found much nicer TB's in the states, many straight off the track with as much (or in this case, little) training as this poor guy, in the $2500 range, even. Do not pay even $7500.

He looks very uncomfortable and/or sore. He also looks like he is being forced into the frame he is in (note how his head keeps popping up and his tail is switching - is that a standing martingale? I cannot seem to quite make it out clearly). The rider keeps correcting his mouth like he is trying to keep reminding the horse where his head should be, rather than focusing on creating the frame through teaching the horse how to better carry himself (through exercises and such) - it looks artificial. He is very on the forehand and is not tracking up really whatsoever. His canter is definitely 4-beat much of the time (freeze frame his movement and note how his inside hind and outside fore are always landing at slightly different times).

I think over the jump he should be tighter and rounder up front, however it is difficult to say how much is him and how much is his rider and his tack (ie. the martingale). He is rushing the fences because he's unbalanced, does not have the power in his hind end, and is tense throughout - you would have some re-training on your hands (I would start with some dressage). I think he could possibly be a cute jumper (he does have nicer form at times, which is why I think his form has a lot to do with his rider), with some re-training though...I definitely would have expected more/better from a 10yo. If you are looking for a project - he is it. However not for that price.

doublesstable
Jan. 15, 2010, 11:52 PM
This horse is not comfortable in the heels. Expecially the left front. I agree with others here and didn't continue watching beyond the first canter direction.

If you look closely; this horse lands TOE FIRST. it's either his trim or something beyond that.

This will create the appearance of a sore back as well.....

I agree about the rider :eek: and the horse is not 18 hands. Sweet horse however....

Petstorejunkie
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:08 AM
is it just me or does this horse have flippers for front hooves?
there is so much wrong going on, he doesnt look safe or comfortable!

doublesstable
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:11 AM
is it just me or does this horse have flippers for front hooves?

:lol::lol::lol: "flippers" that made me laugh... I think the hooves are a mess. The left front is high on the inside..

If no real damage done and you could get a better price it may be worth a vet check and a bit of rehab time???

ArthurGuinness
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:56 AM
The rider is really throwing this horse on his front end which would make him look a little funny. In effect the horse is getting really strung out. I would go and try him myself to see if riden correctly he goes a little better.
The horse is a little long for my liking however there is something I like about him. Assuming he is sound with a little work I think he could be cute.

Catomine
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:06 AM
Not quite sure about the horse, his canter looks comfortable but has no implusion.

and i HATEEE when people ride like that! Omg, SIT UP! And stopping visibly wrenching his mouth back and forth like that!

I see a lot of men who ride like this, hunched over, shoulders forward, eyes and head pointed down, with their hands way out sideways pulling back and forth on their mount's mouths! WHY do they do that?!

Catomine
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:12 AM
I dont know, just watched it again, maybe he's just a sloppy mover. Maybe he's just bored. I'd personally be afraid to jump him, he has such a lack of effort I'd worry he'd pull a rail with a front leg and flip over. (One of my fears about jumping!) I'd probably not be interested. I think he's too big and awkwardly put together. And I really hate that rider!

feetofclay1678
Jan. 16, 2010, 01:01 PM
horse i dont see too much thats bad, besides a horrible rider that is! As I see it, the horse is just cantering with a complete lack of impulsion, no forwardness what so ever. And that is never good,but its the way he is being asked to go. Hunters are not Western pleasure horses. A 4-beat canter is not natural and is not correct in any way! Horse seems like a quiet good soul being forced to move in an unnatural way. Hunters are supposed to be forward!!! That doesnt mean fast, just going with impulsion, a little power behind their step.

findeight
Jan. 16, 2010, 04:35 PM
I didn't see lamness as much as a horse that just is not a good mover. At all. Fact, if he were allowed to carry his head and neck as he is built????? He has one upside down neck going on there. Got the huge dip on the top in front of the wither and you can see it curves the wrong way out of the chest very clearly. This one cannot reach out and down even if it had any rein to allow it to do so.

On top of that, frankly, giraffe neck, he appears to be long backed and has his hocks set too far back to step under and carry himself. With his nose cranked to his chest to try to hide the shape and set of that neck, even if he could move well he'd be unable.

Not so sure the rider is innocently "bad" either. Trying to hide something by cranking nose to chest and not getting off his back. Making him look like something he is not and hiding that neck. Makes you wonder what would happen if he let go...what does he know we don't?

On top of that, this one needs more weight and, as somebody else mentioned, that rider is 8' tall if that one sticks at 18 hands. He's big alright, just not that big.

Sale presentations either video or live should present the horse the best he can be. If that's the best on this one?I'd pass at any price.

tidy rabbit
Jan. 16, 2010, 06:18 PM
I dont know, just watched it again, maybe he's just a sloppy mover. Maybe he's just bored. I'd personally be afraid to jump him, he has such a lack of effort I'd worry he'd pull a rail with a front leg and flip over. (One of my fears about jumping!) I'd probably not be interested. I think he's too big and awkwardly put together. And I really hate that rider!


Watched the entire video and honestly I think the horse is pretty careful especially since he's jumping out of such a terrible canter.

Too bad he's 10 already.

Czar
Jan. 16, 2010, 06:45 PM
I didn't see lamness as much as a horse that just is not a good mover. At all. Fact, if he were allowed to carry his head and neck as he is built????? He has one upside down neck going on there. Got the huge dip on the top in front of the wither and you can see it curves the wrong way out of the chest very clearly. This one cannot reach out and down even if it had any rein to allow it to do so.

On top of that, frankly, giraffe neck, he appears to be long backed and has his hocks set too far back to step under and carry himself. With his nose cranked to his chest to try to hide the shape and set of that neck, even if he could move well he'd be unable.

Not so sure the rider is innocently "bad" either. Trying to hide something by cranking nose to chest and not getting off his back. Making him look like something he is not and hiding that neck. Makes you wonder what would happen if he let go...what does he know we don't?

On top of that, this one needs more weight and, as somebody else mentioned, that rider is 8' tall if that one sticks at 18 hands. He's big alright, just not that big.

Sale presentations either video or live should present the horse the best he can be. If that's the best on this one?I'd pass at any price.

Almost exactly what I was going to say though I don't necessarily think the horse is a bad mover...he's not built to go naturally round like a WB I agree but his leg stays straight and if he were allowed to move out a bit; it might be a different story.

However, the rider definitely looks like he is hiding something. Way too protective with his seat and upper body even though his leg is super tight. He allows the horse to pull down after the jumps instead of sitting up and down into his seat to make him engage his hind end - makes one think the horse might be reactive and this guy is just trying not to tick him off. Could be totally wrong though - hard to tell anything truly definite from a 3 minute video...I'd want to see the horse in person and maybe even sit on him before I made a concrete decision about why he goes like he does.

I will say that as much as I don't think the horse is terrible (I agree with tidy rabbit - the jump doesn't deter me one bit) - I steer VERY clear of these types. Big and angular with a long back do not translate well in the hunter/jumper ring - sure, with enough flatwork and a GREAT attitude, they can work out but you can't change their natural conformation and it's definitely harder on the horse to learn to go contrary to how they would carry themselves naturally. A horse like this has to be very willing b/c you have to train on them a little harder. Even for a jumper that doesn't have to be so stylized, you have those short turns and lots of adjustments which can be hard on an angular horse.

We've had 2 TB's who were built like this in our barn - both had lovely, lovely temperaments and did ok in the hunter ring but they were hard to ride well b/c of their size + long backs/necks. Neither looked as reactive as this horse.

Come Shine
Jan. 16, 2010, 07:02 PM
... makes one think the horse might be reactive and this guy is just trying not to tick him off.

That's what I saw, too. A tight martingale and a wringy tail when asked for a change.

HunterJumperLuv
Jan. 16, 2010, 08:16 PM
It would be interesting if someone else were to go try this horse and hear how he actually feels. And to see/hear a pre purchase results. God only knows whats actually going on there.

That being said, I wouldnt bother with it myself. In this economy especially, do you really want to be stuck with something that potentially (due to bad conformation/bad movement/already not quite right etc) will be lame in the future? (Yes, you're risking lameness in any horse, but why start out with a handicap?)

ETA: Rewatched video, and, when he finally gets "going" even a little bit, he stops four beating the canter, but he gets sooooooo lateral in his canter. I think this one is definatly a "family horse" with that looooooooooooooong back.

Scoped out the website, and I BELIEVE... that the rider is the farms trainer.

RugBug
Jan. 16, 2010, 08:47 PM
makes one think the horse might be reactive and this guy is just trying not to tick him off.
.

I thought the same thing, too...from the start of the video when the rider is doing the whole "you're all right" withers scritches. They weren't 'good boy' pats/rubs...they look like settling scritches to me. Rider does it again later. I would guess the horse is not as laid back and people here seem to think. That coupled with all the other stuff I don't like about him (especially that the jump was m'eh and that the canter didn't improve much when he was going a little more forward...sure, there were't four beats any longer, but it was still blech) would mean I wouldn't give the horse a second thought.

Fharoah
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:16 PM
The first few steps of trot look funny to me but may just be the rider. The canter looks very week forbeat not forward, could be an issue or just not being ridden correctly. He would not be my type although looks like a real tryer and kind guy. If you like him, ride him and if you really like him get a very thorough vet check.

Best wishes!

LaraNSpeedy
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:24 PM
He definitely looks like a sweet horse. He is too big for what I like. The more forward he was ridden the better he went and I was happy to see he made the turns pretty handy for his size when he did that. He certainly is not something to spazz out about. I think if he gained some weight and muscle - he would improve in looks and looking more balanced.... he is long - but he is long everywhere at least. That said - a horse like that should have a big rider too because he looks like he needs some TLC to pull together. I hate riding a horse that is big and makes me work that hard. Again, some good muscling and strength building would help that....

However, two things I see is - I do not like the line from back to croup. He doesnt have strength there.... he also has something odd with his front legs like they are not both straight or something. I see it every time I see him turn left in the canter - I thought his hind simply looked weak but then - he was cantering in a 4 beat and was really stuck - and he did improve quite a bit when ridden forward. That rider was somewhat charging into the fence.

I dunno. The horse could be decent though - I mean, if you need a horse that tall - and you rate the disposition up high - I think he probably would be a nice horse but he needs muscle and strength and asked to canter openly.... DO some dressage base flat work and help he have some tools to collect his big ole body.

$8500 in this economic climate is not terribly high but is a little - what has he done - he does have changes. That says a little more positive about his ability. Again, his front end looked nice when the rider wasnt on top of his withers, behind the leg - and let him jump.

I guess I would give him a 6.5 out of 10. But I think he could be improved upon.

ALL that said - some of these issues can be typical in a horse so tall. I have had two 17.3-18 hand horses. Both had some of these issues.

aWp
Jan. 18, 2010, 01:13 AM
As someone who rides a long-necked, long-backed horse, I wouldn't dismiss the conformation out of hand if you want a horse that will have a light, elastic feel when worked properly. What I see here from this rider is a DISASTER! He is sawing at this poor horse's mouth right from the get-go, and never gets him to work properly through the back, which completely prevents him from engaging well at either the trot or the canter. You cannot ride a horse like this with the seat so far forward; that encourages the natural tendency to be on the forehand. I also can't believe the horse is 18h from the size of the rider.

If you do end up with a horse like this, make sure you know that you're in for a lot more initial strengthening through the back than you'd do with a shorter-backed horse. Once you get it, though, you'll never want to stop riding it. A long-backed horse is VERY comfortable when you can manage the long stride, which it looks like the rider here can't do confidently. I think he's reassuring himself more than the horse, as the horse is putting up with an awful lot from him, and isn't reacting horribly at all. If you want a ride that feels light and athletic, then this horse would be worth checking out, but only if you're comfortable working through the strengthening it would take for a horse like this to be in his top form. If you want something you can package up right away, a horse like this wouldn't be for you at all.

Personally, when I get to cantering my horse and he's on the aids and light and working correctly, I NEVER want to get off. His movement is like a drug! It's like riding a butterfly.

judybigredpony
Jan. 18, 2010, 08:13 AM
Take everyones advice go find something a bit smaller, sounder and more together......

JustJump
Jan. 18, 2010, 09:18 AM
Lots of 'experts' here.

It's a TB, it's 18 hands high. I'd want to see it without a saddle, when TB's get that big it's often hard to fit them in a saddle as there is usually quite a wither there to deal with.

That makes them uncomfortable in their back.

This one was trying to say he wants his head higher than he's being allowed to carry it--looks like he's had a fair amount of draw rein use. The canter is that his head is too low, so he's just pulling himself around.

He's big, honest, and for $8500, and 10 yo, I'm not sure how sound you are expecting him to be to begin with.

But looks to me like another TB who is nice enough to do the job he's advertised for, at a reasonable price. Don't love the ride he's getting is an understatement, but based on the video, I don't see anything to rule him out, if I were looking.

findeight
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:15 AM
In the basic language of ad copy for sale horses...they are 2 inches shorter and at least 2 years older then stated. At best.

Far as I can tell here, we all agree it is not really 18 hands (and we rarely agree). No reason to assume it's not 12+ years old-and the reality is they probably have no idea other then what they were told when they bought it and who knows what that seller knocked off the age.

This is not a young horse that can be molded. It's high mileage older horse pretty much been going the way it is here for years.

8500 is way high on this one.

cajunbelle
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:22 AM
This horse looks like he hurts all over...ouchhhhhhh!:eek:

RugBug
Jan. 18, 2010, 03:22 PM
Far as I can tell here, we all agree it is not really 18 hands (and we rarely agree).

I actually think the horse could be 18h or close enough that makes it silly to call it anything but. (Like I worry about calling my 16.1 3/4 horse 16.2). This rider is VERY long in the upper body, (which is probably why he is so bad with his back) but his legs aren't exactly short.

Still not a horse I like at all.

KristiKGC
Jan. 18, 2010, 05:22 PM
I'm another that thinks the horse could definitely be 18h. I have an 18h horse who is built like a TB and I make him look average size. I'm 6'1" with long legs.

That said, unfortunately for me, the bigger the horse, the more common DODs and the like are common. It is VERY VERY VERY difficult to find a tall horse who vets 100%. The big horses are going to be much more prone to problems; if you don't need something that big, I would highly recommend getting something smaller.
(Maybe I just try to discourage people who don't need tall horses from buying them so they're not so difficult for me to find!)

No matter what, that horse looks like there is something very wrong, whether it is rider error, lameness/soreness, or a combination. I would keep looking, even if they're giving that horse away for free, it doesn't seem to be worth the likely vet bills.

msrobin
Jan. 18, 2010, 05:43 PM
I just checked out the other videos and the guy is riding the same way on most of the videos! He is all over that saddle! I also looked at the website, boy oh boy.
I was actually asked about this horse from a client of mine. She found him on Craigslist and asked me to watch the video. Frankly it shocked me, I feel horrible for that poor horse. I have worked with many long backed horses and while it takes lots of extra time with training I haven't had too much of an issue. I also don't see how this horse is 18 hands, I would be amazed to see him sticked at that. Thank you for all your critiques, it allows me to see things that I may have missed, even if I have been doing this forever it seems :)

Help is always appreciated from my fellow cothers.

spotted mustang
Jan. 18, 2010, 06:46 PM
Maybe he's just bored.

that was my impression. Saint of a horse, but not being challenged. He's being ridden strung-out, on the forehand, with no impulsion. I feel the irregularities in the canter are because he's not really moving forward; in fact, if he was cantered with any less impulsion than that he'd probably just fall over ;)

same with the jumps. He just canters over them; they don't really challenge him enough to show his ability.

horse's build is a challenge: very long, with a deer neck. Could muscle up a bit under good riding, maybe...

Might look much better under a better rider. I'm surprised they posted this as a sales video...

...and is the horse really that long or is the video posted at the wrong screen ratio? :D

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 18, 2010, 07:59 PM
:no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

BigDreams07
Jan. 18, 2010, 08:24 PM
If I was a horse and thats how i was ridden i'd be pretty darn uncomfortable too

HealingHeart
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:00 PM
I think he has been worked so much and hard at the 12 foot stride for so long that he has slowed down, like a western lope, and is close to or is trotting from in the hind. He is not forward and prob. has a bigger stride

Nice guy, beautiful and kind