PDA

View Full Version : Hot sires for the hunter ring



Pages : [1] 2

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 01:51 PM
This is a spin-off from the Sporthorse Breeding Forum. There is an interesting thread on sires available with fresh semen (ie, in NA) that produce saleable jumper-bred foals.
My question is- who are the NA sires that trainers and clients seek out when making their purchases, firstly, of young two year olds, then, secondly, for made hunters? I am thinking of the A circuit.

Go Fish
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:43 PM
Lots of threads on this issue...do a search.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:50 PM
Lots of threads on this issue...do a search.


WOW! :eek:

hunteryperson
Jan. 15, 2010, 02:58 PM
I think Popeye K, Redwine, Cunningham are marketable. They seem to sell for good money and fast.

Treasmare2
Jan. 15, 2010, 03:29 PM
I have to give a vote to Popeye K....I love what he produced for me. Major power but quiet and comfortable. My Oxford filly is also going to be a lovely super moving hunter with a big hindend motor ... a real powerhouse.

avadog
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:04 PM
While I like Oxford, I wouldn't call him a hot sire. I like Cunningham and Redwine.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:14 PM
Additionally, I like Apiro's foals. I imagine if he shows well this winter that will give his popularity a "boost" as well.

sansibar
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:19 PM
Im not so much for popeye k, a lot of the babies I have seen are less than stellar, don't get me wrong they are nice babies but I think the horse has 25-50% price increase because it is a popeye k baby, quite frankly sometimes I just don't see it.

I don't have opinions on sires right now, first I look at the horse and then the sire comes secondary. JMO.

IrishWillow
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:23 PM
Popeye K, Balta Czar, Red Wine, A Fine Romance, Romantic Star.

I have a horse crush on Romantic Star. :D

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:26 PM
For the riders, trainers and shoppers, do you have certain stallions or bloodlines that you look for in performance Hunter prospects, vs. foals that 'may' grow up to be a hunter or a baby to show on the line?
I think the 'other threads' on this topic contain many stallions that are suggested to breed to for a hunter, what I would like to know is which ones are really producing them?

The USEF hunter sire feature is a nice tool, but I am sure there are many more horses out there then what those numbers tally.

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:28 PM
Relatively few trainers and clients looking for A circuit hunters are interested in two year olds. Most are looking for horses of riding age, because most do not have facilities/programs suitable for babies.

You might want to look at the IHF website for info on stallions which participate in the young horse stuff - they focus on producing nice young hunter stock. Personally of the stallions participating in that program I am partial to Jones Hall ;). That said, I buy individuals - not bloodlines.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:32 PM
A lot of these "hot sires" (Cunningham, Redwine, Apiro, etc) don't have old enough foal crops to be touting them as incredible hunter sires. Sure, their babies are adorable, and certainly, many of them look the part. But until they begin showing in the regular rings, I'm not going to be convinced that they're producing super hunters. Not to suggest people shouldn't breed to them ;c). I wouldn't include Popeye K in this list, as many of his older offspring have been showing for several years at this point with varied success (in large part, due to the varied quality of mares that went to him for a period of time).

I would check the USEF Leading Hunter Sires List to learn about stallions who have produced TODAY's winners if you're looking for a more reliable indicator.

If I'm not mistaken, Voltaire (Popeye K's sire) has lead this list for several years.

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:38 PM
SHF - there are not enough or OLD enough babies to determine with any certainty - for NA standing FRESH semen stallions.
I haven't been overly impressed with PK babies (for hunters) I have seen - some as old as 6 - but he covered a LOT of mares in Canada and hard to know what the mare base was like.
The horses that PERFORMED or ARE performing at the A circuit level at a USEF recognized level (3'6" or up) have been listed on that SHB thread:
Cunningham
Apiro
Sir Caletto
St Nick
Carbadino
(sure there might be some others - Scott Stewart had one but may be gelded?)
I think you will see that all these stallions have strong jumper bloodlines. Whether they will pass on their talents to their offspring, and whether the right mares have been matched to them?? I am waiting to find out myself!!!! And it may be that MARES with strong jumper lines can match up with stallions that are not so strong in that department. But there are simply not that many offspring in the ring of most of these stallions (and other stallions being marketed as HUNTER stallions to know!
Have you scrolled down the USEF list of top hunter stallions? You may find some on there not listed above who can be gotten fresh.

risingstarfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 04:55 PM
Popeye K, Balta Czar, Red Wine, A Fine Romance, Romantic Star.

I have a horse crush on Romantic Star. :D

Ditto!

IrishWillow
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:08 PM
Ditto!

Isnt he PRETTY? I love him. :)

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:11 PM
Lots of threads on this issue...do a search.

You clicked on this thread just to be snarky and not add anything???:rolleyes:. I like Cunningham,Iroman,and Red Wine. Have to agree about Pk...have not seen too many that I like. I also like Amazing but he does not have any babies on the ground and has not done much himself. I guess he will be showing this year though.

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:19 PM
My question is who are the NA sires that trainers and clients seek out when making their purchases, firstly, of young two year olds,

We are getting a ton of interest from trainers for Apiro babies and breedings. I have been surprised by it having been unaware as to how many professionals were interested in buying and/or producing young horses. It is two-fold, I think. With the prices to import going up and the Europeans beginning to understand the hunter market a bit better, it is tougher to find the special ones much less at a reasonable price. They also have hunter mares in retirement that become broodmares.


then, secondly, for made hunters? I am thinking of the A circuit.

Based on the feedback from the professionals who I have spoken with, Alla' Czar still has a following. Cassini I and Voltaire are always interesting for them. Rio Grande has produced well and Balou du Rouet is on their watch list.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
We are getting a ton of interest from trainers for Apiro babies and breedings. I have been surprised by it having been unaware as to how many professionals were interested in buying and/or producing young horses. It is two-fold, I think. With the prices to import going up and the Europeans beginning to understand the hunter market a bit better, it is tougher to find the special ones much less at a reasonable price. They also have hunter mares in retirement that become broodmares.



Based on the feedback from the professionals who I have spoken with, Alla' Czar still has a following. Cassini I and Voltaire are always interesting for them. Rio Grande has produced well and Balou du Rouet is on their watch list.

Thank you, Barbara! :) This is spot on the kind of reply that I have been searching for---information on what the pros have on their radar! The names may vary between the coasts and among the circuits---I wonder?

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:35 PM
Those who show those Rio babies will tell you they are very difficult. Talented, yes! But there are stories. Balou is also hot, so again, those of us who travel show to show hear things that may not be politically correct for this board, but it is what it is and if you ask a question, then a response with candor should be appreciated.
Apiro is terrific. None of his babes are in the ring.
The other stallions I mentioned are starting to have babes in the ring.
You asked only about FRESH semen and I thought NA based stallions - Barb mentioned several non NA based stallions.
Voltaire is inconsistent with producing hunters.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:39 PM
You asked only about FRESH semen and I thought NA based stallions - Barb mentioned several non NA based stallions.
I did, yes. I just sorted the European-based frozen out. I really am trying to find the NA-based stallions. Rio is dead so frozen only, but I am including him as I would Alla'Czar. That part of my question requires this further refinement.

MagicRoseFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:40 PM
I cannot tell you what sires are currently "HOT", but I can tell you what blood supercedes all others as being present in more top 3'6" and 4'0 ( non TB) horses in the last 20 years than ALL others.... Absatz...

The young stock that we are linebreeding with this blood have both incredible movement ( all three gaits) and incredible form

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:42 PM
SHF - there are not enough or OLD enough babies to determine with any certainty - for NA standing FRESH semen stallions.
I haven't been overly impressed with PK babies (for hunters) I have seen - some as old as 6 - but he covered a LOT of mares in Canada and hard to know what the mare base was like.
The horses that PERFORMED or ARE performing at the A circuit level at a USEF recognized level (3'6" or up) have been listed on that SHB thread:
Cunningham
Apiro
Sir Caletto
St Nick
Carbadino
(sure there might be some others - Scott Stewart had one but may be gelded?)
I think you will see that all these stallions have strong jumper bloodlines. Whether they will pass on their talents to their offspring, and whether the right mares have been matched to them?? I am waiting to find out myself!!!! And it may be that MARES with strong jumper lines can match up with stallions that are not so strong in that department. But there are simply not that many offspring in the ring of most of these stallions (and other stallions being marketed as HUNTER stallions to know!
Have you scrolled down the USEF list of top hunter stallions? You may find some on there not listed above who can be gotten fresh.
I in no way wish to fail to show appreciation for this information as well.
Thank you.

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 05:45 PM
Idid, yes. I just sorted the European-based frozen out. I really am trying to find the NA-based stallions. Rio is dead so frozen only, but I am including him as I would Alla'Czar. That part of my question requires this further refinement.


If I may, I would appreciate knowing them all, not just he fresh options. Perhaps we will pick up on some trends know commonly known.

And I agree that the other half of the equation (the mares) should not be ignored.

Thanks!

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:01 PM
The difficult part of this is that Voltaire, Balou, and Cassini I have put HUGE numbers of foals on the ground in Europe, more than we could ever fathom for a stallion based in North America, which greatly increases the opportunity for there to be hunter prospects in the mix especially when a stallion stamps specific qualities. I don't think we will ever find a stallion who is truely a consistent hunter producer while also producing scope for the 4' hunters as many of the qualities desired in the modern show ring hunter do not go hand in hand with scope.


Those who show those Rio babies will tell you they are very difficult. Talented, yes! But there are stories. Balou is also hot, so again, those of us who travel show to show hear things that may not be politically correct for this board, but it is what it is and if you ask a question, then a response with candor should be appreciated.
Apiro is terrific. None of his babes are in the ring.
The other stallions I mentioned are starting to have babes in the ring.
You asked only about FRESH semen and I thought NA based stallions - Barb mentioned several non NA based stallions.
Voltaire is inconsistent with producing hunters.

CBoylen
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:15 PM
Frankly, once the horse is at an age where someone is buying it for the show ring, very few people care who it is by. It is what it is at that point. Not many people buy two year olds, a few will buy three year olds, but most want them at late four where you can see what you actually have. The sire is a curiosity point or a tiebreaker, but it's not making sales.

Now, whether a certain sire is producing the sort of horse that sells, I don't think we have good independent data on that. I know three people that have recently purchased young Popeyes, but I'm in a position where I tend to know well the people who are exposed to Popeye young stock. And, they certainly didn't buy them just on the basis of their sire. A friend also bought a Balou, but she wasn't aware of that until after the purchase.
That said, if I personally were going out looking for a young horse, I'd take time to look at whatever Popeyes were available, as I love mine and love the ones I've ridden. I would also go out of my way to look at some Magicals, for the same reason. But when it comes to putting up some cash, I'm going to buy the best horse I can find, even if it's out of Texas by Truck.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:25 PM
Yes, but I think the OP is asking *what* appeals to the people who *do* buy and start two year olds. Some one is taking those horses from the field and getting them to the ring as 4 year old. OP isn't asking how to market to the AA in the 3 foot ring. You are correct, no one cares about sires at that point, but when you are taking a gamble on a young horse, sometimes bloodlines are the only thing you have.

To the PP who posted on Rio babies. I have a gelding out of a Rio mare, by Charlotte Farm's stallion Viva Voltaire. His temperment is A+ in my book, tho he might be a bit hot or hard to get to the ring for the hunters. Can you expand on your comment. I am thinking of buying the full sister to this gelding. She would be a sport horse first, but might eventually get bred.

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:31 PM
Ahh, well my experience is different than C. Boylen's. The Magical offspring I knew were difficult and rather nutso. That aside, that folks buy without knowing bloodlines is rather discouraging to any breeder trying to create a home grown great hunter, with consistency, and with that pesky data issue we have in this country, it seems almost impossible to know who to breed to.

Again we get to mares. It would be terrific if we knew the mare lines that match up to these terrific jumping stallions to produce the super hunters - unless they really ARE accidents so to speak. I know that many of these stallions COULD produce good jumpers as well as hunters. Again might depend on the mare. And the reverse - are their great jumping mares who matched with a stallion from a different background might make a perfect matchup??????

Time will tell. Without knowing exactly how many mares covered, how many offspring make it to the ring, whether the breeders were interested in producing "top" level versus a good, but 3'6" challenged hunter - it really is hard to know! We seem much more focused here on the hunter breeding ring, which so far isn't a sure bet to result in a good "hunter".

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:33 PM
Hopefully, the new HDIF program will help with some of that especially since they offer classes through 6 years of age.

GGStables
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:43 PM
See, this is where things get interesting. I have Rio Grande daughter o/o a Golden Miller (Gotthard) mare. She’s wide awake, but a sweetheart. I also boarded a Viva Voltaire colt o/o a Trak mare who was so wired, it was really difficult at times. Who is/was to "blame"?

Voltaire’s owner Dr Jan Grieve is a vet and renowned breeder. He sold Authentic to Beezie Madden & is the kind of guy that seems to hate fads and the “me too” lemmings approach, which I love about him. In any event, regarding breeding he’s on record saying words to this effect: “Better to have a so-so (mare) of excellent pedigree than an excellent one with an average pedigree.” Well, he said “sh*t” actually, not “average”.

It makes sense to me. Perhaps one should apply that to stallions, too?

I’ve read through all of this and other threads about stallions (Doolittle) being pulled and so forth, and the more I read, the more the fact that it’s all such a crapshoot, is underscored.

Go Fish
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:47 PM
You clicked on this thread just to be snarky and not add anything???:rolleyes:.

What????

There have been umpteen threads on hunter sires. I was merely giving the OP other places to look. What side of the bed did you get up on this morning?

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:49 PM
SJ - that is EXCELLENT news re HDIF - I had heard it was cut off at 4 years old, making it an IHF wannabee. If there will be classes for up to 6 year olds, well, that makes me go YIPPEE!

lauriep
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:57 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned All the Gold. He HAS produced many hunter offspring that were successful. Since he is retired, I'm not sure what the availability will be, but we have an intact son in our barn, who, if he continues as he has started, will definitely be scopey enough for a Derby horse, and has a good mind.

I think the mare issue is huge. With the abundance of cheap TB mares in this country that are scarfed up by many breeders, the stallions are given a HUGE job of producing performance horses out of unknown-quality mares. I know of a couple of breeding programs that really try to purchase mares of any breed that have a solid performance background. One has proven its success by producing performance horses (Robin Stewart in VA) and the other is just starting out (Gray Fox Farm in CA). We recently got 3 Redwine babies in, but it will be a couple of years before we know if they perform. They seem to have very good minds and lovely movement. Will report more as we continue to evaluate.

If you are buying very young stock, I think you only have the breeding to go on. We love Alla Czars. We've had several, and ALL were nice horses and could move and jump. We had a lovely Paparazzo filly who won under saddle and we jumped her enough to know she has "it" for that, too. Our Escapade colt, bred by Robin, was, IMO, that stallion's nicest offspring, and he looked like he had the whole package, too. They are now living with their owner, so hopefully, they will continue to progress as they grow up.

No matter what you buy, you want to buy as correct and balanced an individual as possible. If the stallion has either performed himself, or shown that he could produce performance, then I think that you are ahead of the game. Certainly a better gamble than we used to have buying TBs off the track!

lauriep
Jan. 15, 2010, 06:59 PM
SJ - that is EXCELLENT news re HDIF - I had heard it was cut off at 4 years old, making it an IHF wannabee. If there will be classes for up to 6 year olds, well, that makes me go YIPPEE!

This first year is only open to up to 4 y.o. and then they will add a year each year until they include 6 y.o.

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:08 PM
Yes, they are going to offer the below classes over a 2 day period. They are pushing for 50 events with 10 events held in each of 5 regions.

Yearling Hunter Breeding
2-year old Hunter Breeding
3-year old Hunter Breeding
3-year old Hunter Under Saddle
3-year old Hunter Hack (two fences 2'6" to 2'9" on a trot in canter out line)
4-year old Hunter Under Saddle
4-year old Baby Hunter (four fences 2'9" to 3' with simple changes and trot allowed)
4-year old Young Hunter (six fences 2'9" to 3' trot allowed, flying changes opotional)
5-year old Division (under saddle & 3 classes over fences 3' to 3'3")
6-year old Division (under saddle & 3 classes over fences 3'3")


SJ - that is EXCELLENT news re HDIF - I had heard it was cut off at 4 years old, making it an IHF wannabee. If there will be classes for up to 6 year olds, well, that makes me go YIPPEE!

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:11 PM
Yes, but I think the OP is asking *what* appeals to the people who *do* buy and start two year olds. Some one is taking those horses from the field and getting them to the ring as 4 year old.



But that's the point. Very few buy young horses unless they want to do HB. Some will buy for IHF and that operates with a list of recorded stallions. So if you are doing IHF ( or IJF) you need offspring by a stallion in those programs. The new Incentive Fund will be the same. You need offspring of a recorded stallion.

So for those futurities pedigree matters. For a mature showing horse who cares? If just needs to do it's job.

Interesting that most of the replies are from sporthorse breeders, not so much from exhibitors.

grayfox
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:11 PM
Relatively few trainers and clients looking for A circuit hunters are interested in two year olds. Most are looking for horses of riding age, because most do not have facilities/programs suitable for babies.

You might want to look at the IHF website for info on stallions which participate in the young horse stuff - they focus on producing nice young hunter stock. Personally of the stallions participating in that program I am partial to Jones Hall ;). That said, I buy individuals - not bloodlines.

I love Jones Hall also, he is a beautiful stallion. I just got in a Jones Hall mare Sands of Time that I'm in love with.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:18 PM
Interesting that most of the replies are from sporthorse breeders, not so much from exhibitors.

With sincere acknowledgement to my fellow breeders, I was trying to pitch my questions to the trainers and exhibitors of hunters; hence, its posting in the Hunter/Jumper Forum. I expect that they are all too busy training or competing on the circuits--with those lovely hunters whose origins I am trying to plot!

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:26 PM
So for those futurities pedigree matters. For a mature showing horse who cares? If just needs to do it's job.



We are asking how to maximize through breeding the chances that our foals can do just that, thereby appealing to the seasoned trainer and exhibitor.

Tegan
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:29 PM
I have a Magical baby. She's gorgeous but can be difficult, particularly on the ground. She's usually pretty good u/s, she learns very quickly and has an amazing even, smooth canter that is going be perfect for the hunter ring. She's more nervous/sensitive than ideal though.

There is definitely an attitude on there though. I have heard that the Magical offspring tend to calm down around 5 or 6 though (but don't they all?).

So FWIW, I don't have much experience with other sires, but Magical wouldn't be my first choice. Is he even breeding anymore? I'm not sure what is going on with ownership now.

lauriep
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:31 PM
With sincere acknowledgement to my fellow breeders, I was trying to pitch my questions to the trainers and exhibitors of hunters; hence, its posting in the Hunter/Jumper Forum. I expect that they are all too busy training or competing on the circuits--with those lovely hunters whose origins I am trying to plot!

Hate to say it, but I don't know that many trainers who are computer literate! Maybe email, but certainly not surfing COTH!

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:42 PM
Hate to say it, but I don't know that many trainers who are computer literate! Maybe email, but certainly not surfing COTH!


I know! :(:sadsmile::cry:

CBoylen
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:47 PM
Hate to say it, but I don't know that many trainers who are computer literate! Maybe email, but certainly not surfing COTH!
Agreed. This is also why most of the sires, that breeders and computer freaks (myself included) think are household names, will be met with a blank stare unless the sire showed with a colleague or the trainer personally has had experience with related offspring and either liked or hated them enough to remember the sire.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:50 PM
We are asking how to maximize through breeding the chances that our foals can do just that, thereby appealing to the seasoned trainer and exhibitor.

Breeding isn't the problem.
It's sales competition with Europe that is the issue.

If you shop in Europe you have a large selection of ready to go horses. In some cases the Hunter prospects have already shown in Europe. And sometimes they aren't competitive as Jumpers so they get sold to the US as Hunter prospects.

Most exhibitors want a 'ready to go' horse. They find those in Europe ( or their trainer does).

The expense of getting the horse to the point where it is saleable as a performance horse is built into the plan of the breeders in Europe. And they have several ways to do that.

Here, not so much.

lauriep
Jan. 15, 2010, 07:53 PM
Agreed. This is also why most of the sires, that breeders and computer freaks (myself included) think are household names, will be met with a blank stare unless the sire showed with a colleague or the trainer personally has had experience with related offspring and either liked or hated them enough to remember the sire.

Bingo! The trainers I know look for/buy the individual they like, with no regard to pedigree UNLESS they have had experience with one they like/hate and try to repeat/avoid that horse's relatives. Then they might look specifically for a certain stallion. When they go to Europe, and look at 100 3-6 year olds in a day, they are not remembering who is by who. They are remembering the jump and the mind.

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:01 PM
There ARE breeders who are also exhibitors and trainers. We were in Wellington where Apiro is staying for the season and had spoken at great length with trainers on exactly this topic. Both Cathalido and Vallado are also out competing. In fact, Vallado has competed in almost 50 horse shows and he is coming 8 this year. The majority of our young horse sales are to trainers rather than individuals, so I feel that I do have something to offer to this topic. The tide is changing. More and more trainers are interested in how their horses are bred.



Interesting that most of the replies are from sporthorse breeders, not so much from exhibitors.

Lord Helpus
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:01 PM
I am glad that Laurie P added All The Gold -- after 2 pages of many stallions who do not even have horses old enough to be under saddle yet his omission was glaring.:eek:

Several other stallions I like enough to immediately go see their offspring, if any were available near me, are Tish Quirks 2 boys, but especially Just The Best for hunters. Also Don Alfredo. I have seen a number of Don Alfredo's in the hunter ring and have like every one. He seems to stamp his get and their temperaments are all very amateur friendly.

I got my [mandatory:winkgrin:] Popeye K 5 years ago. He is a wonderful horse, but grew so big that he bypassed the hunter ring and ended up in the jumper ring. With his huge jump, it is where he (and his huge body) belong.:yes:

And, even though he is more of an event sire, A Fine Romance, when crossed with the right mare, has produced some very fancy hunters. So I would not hesitate to look at an AFR for the hunter ring, having seen 2 - 3 beautiful ones with exquisite hunter movement.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:08 PM
Bingo! The trainers I know look for/buy the individual they like, with no regard to pedigree UNLESS they have had experience with one they like/hate and try to repeat/avoid that horse's relatives. Then they might look specifically for a certain stallion. When they go to Europe, and look at 100 3-6 year olds in a day, they are not remembering who is by who. They are remembering the jump and the mind.

I expect that breeders such as Gray Fox and Robin Stewart, and newly, the program that showjumper66 is involved with, will change that, especially with the changing value of the dollar. They, together with those of us who breed on a smaller scale, may change the habits of trainers.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:16 PM
There ARE breeders who are also exhibitors and trainers.

Yes, the Chapots, Newsprint Farm, Tatra etc are breeders and exhibitors. They produce and show horses in IJF among other divisions.

But most H/J exhibitors go to a trainer to locate their next performance horse, not to buy a young horse who will sit around for a while before starting it's career.
Those exhibitors are A/O riders or A/A riders or Junior riders. Most of the time they simply don't have the time to make up a young horse themselves or even the inclination to do that.

Hunter Trainers generally buy for their clients not for themselves. Being an agent can pay well. LOL

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:23 PM
I expect that breeders such as Gray Fox and Robin Stewart, and newly, the program that showjumper66 is involved with, will change that, especially with the changing value of the dollar. They, together with those of us who breed on a smaller scale, may change the habits of trainers.

That would be nice but how are you going to get 100 or more ready to go horses in a small geographic area for trainers to look at.
And I don't mean perpetual 2'6" horses either. By ready to go I mean 3'6 " horses ready to show or almost ready to show.
You can never compete with Europe on a equal footing as the Euro horses may have already shown at 3'6" or better. Here that won't happen.

Kovy
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:25 PM
Don Alfredo. I have seen a number of Don Alfredo's in the hunter ring and have like every one. He seems to stamp his get and their temperaments are all very amateur friendly.


Agreed! :) I Really like the Don Alfredo's that I've seen in the ring.

Also agree about PopeyeK, Just the Best, and Alla Czar. I'll add Escudo I to the mix as well.

Definitely think Apiro and Redwine offspring are worth watching to see what they'll do when they're old enough to get in the ring.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:33 PM
You can never compete with Europe on a equal footing as the Euro horses may have already shown at 3'6" or better. Here that won't happen.

Oh,My! Such negativity!

Do not underestimate what breeders in North America can do!

TSWJB
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:45 PM
Im not so much for popeye k, a lot of the babies I have seen are less than stellar, don't get me wrong they are nice babies but I think the horse has 25-50% price increase because it is a popeye k baby, quite frankly sometimes I just don't see it.

.
i agree with you here in that you are from canada and i heard from several people that before popeye k moved to the states and became famous, he bred to everything and anything! there were popeye k horses crossed with standardbred mares etc etc. so there have been alot of not so nice horses as the mares do contribute alot to the total package.
i agree with you because i tried 3 popeye k babies and didnt like any of them. one i thought was going to be fabulous. and oh boy was she hot hot hot to the jumps. just a little to hot for my liking. but she had fabulous pictures on a sale sight. but just too quick and flat to be a nice hunter or even a jumper.
the other one was really short stepped and didnt feel like it had much scope. but it did jump up quite well over the few fences i jumped it.
another one was fairly cute. she jumped very well like daddy. but her conformation was not good. she had two different front pasterns. one was very upright and one was more sloping. i had never seen that before and i didnt really think that was good for soundness.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 15, 2010, 08:51 PM
The expense of getting the horse to the point where it is saleable as a performance horse is built into the plan of the breeders in Europe. And they have several ways to do that.

Here, not so much.

I really think you are missing the point. There ARE hunter riders/trainers out there who take the 2 year olds from the field to the ring. Maybe not a lot. And maybe most of them are not buying the young horses but are riding them for the breeder, that doesn't negate the OP's question.

I have purchased two youngsters for the hunter ring. One was by a son of Escudo I (El Bundy). Went to Devon in the 1st year conf this year. Does great by his AA. Stunning to look at, uphill in every respect. The other is out of a Rio daughter by V Voltaire. Workmanlike looks, heavier than the El Bundy. IMHO, although he has a BEAUTIFUL jump, his mind is not right for the hunter ring. He can go all day just like my OTTB's.

Both horses can do the working hunters scopewise. The V Voltaire is probably scopier and has a bigger more adjustable step. He is probably quicker with his front end and I just see him galloping across the ground and jerking up his knees and crackng his back over a big oxer for time. The other would rather lope than gallop. Slow off the ground is his first, second and last name.

ETA: They are both also wonderful dressage horses. V Voltaire excels at it. Too much work for the El Bundy (in my opinion). Neither is a hack winner. El Bundy is better than V Volaire.

I know I am a small sample size, but that is what I can tell you. Hope it helps.

risingstarfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:02 PM
There ARE breeders who are also exhibitors and trainers. We were in Wellington where Apiro is staying for the season and had spoken at great length with trainers on exactly this topic. Both Cathalido and Vallado are also out competing. In fact, Vallado has competed in almost 50 horse shows and he is coming 8 this year. The majority of our young horse sales are to trainers rather than individuals, so I feel that I do have something to offer to this topic. The tide is changing. More and more trainers are interested in how their horses are bred.

I agree with SJ66. It's been my experience and the experience of several other breeders on this board, that the trainers who campaign our stallions are selectively breeding to our boys and buying our youngsters because they DO appreciate the bloodlines, the ability, and the fact that the youngsters are being brought along appropriately.

Reading that we can't compete with Europe is frustrating. There are breeders based in the US who have horses that are just as well bred/ready to show/amateur friendly as those in Europe. The real struggle is the expense and travel associated with showing in North America.

As far as what can be viewed as hot hunter sires in North America....here's my take: Any stallions that are actually out competing successfully in North America - and are able to to maintain a show career with breeding and last more than a couple of seasons, should be viewed as hot!

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:05 PM
Let's talk stats -

Apiro - showing in the 4 foot ring
Carbardino - shows in the 4 foot ring
Sir Caletto - showed in the 4 foot ring
Cunningham - shows in the 4 foot ring
Fine Romance - showed in the 4 foot ring
Just Best - showed in the 4 foot ring
PK- showed in the 4 foot ring

now where and how do we suggest stallions that do not come from jumper lines, have showed at the 3 foot level at most and are claimed to be hunter stallions? Seems a bit perplexing to have four foot proven stallions mixed with newbie stallions with no produce record and no significant show record and not a jumping pedigree. This is why I think NA breeding for hunters will never be a sucess - a lack of information due to our pitiful recording system and an unclear goal and a love of the "colorful".
The Europeans are producing a lot of horses from very good pedigrees. Then they have a wonderful training program. And the fall out of horses not destined to be great dressage or jumper prospects land on our shores. The failed dressage prospects I suspect end up as great 3 foot horses. The failed jumpers - of many I know - end up great 3'6" horses and up. Given that bloodlines are a ? for hunters - what IS it that you use to value the stallion?

If we want to fill the ranks of the 2'6" and 3" hunter world, then that is what we should aspire to and have at it.

If however, we want to breed the 4 foot hunter or hunter derby winner, then that may take a whole lot more expertise.

We look like rank amateurs in the breeding world - and here we have the opportunity to prove ourselves at least in the one particular sport that is unique to NA - hunters - and we are - sadly - just a pimple on the European express.

lauriep
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:13 PM
Oh,My! Such negativity!

Do not underestimate what breeders in North America can do!

Unfortunately, PineTree is correct on the numbers game. The Europeans treat this completely as a business. Every little farm in Germany, Holland, Belgium, breeds horses. And there are HUGE factory-type farms. It is no effort at all to see 50-100 horses, either at one farm, or in a very small area. I can think of nowhere in this country where you can do that, or breeding farms on the scale of, say, the Schockemöhle's. And they just have a different mindset than we do here. Horses aren't pets to them, they are livestock, and treated accordingly. Culling is part of the game.

The biggest hurdle that the NA breeders need to jump, however, is changing the notion of our trainers that they must go across the pond to get the best horses. It is important for breeders to hang on to a good one and make SURE it gets out there and gets shown, at an early enough age to make it feasible. You don't have to wait until they are 4 to start them, if you do it judiciously. Do you think that is what the Euros are doing? Hell no! Those 5-6 year olds that we are importing have already had some kiind of career, usually a failed jumper career, so they had to have been started at 2.

Breeders here are going to have to get more businesslike if they expect to make a dent in the European competition. Wishing and hoping isn't going to make it so.

ktm2007
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:15 PM
Frankly, once the horse is at an age where someone is buying it for the show ring, very few people care who it is by. It is what it is at that point. Not many people buy two year olds, a few will buy three year olds, but most want them at late four where you can see what you actually have. The sire is a curiosity point or a tiebreaker, but it's not making sales.

Now, whether a certain sire is producing the sort of horse that sells, I don't think we have good independent data on that. I know three people that have recently purchased young Popeyes, but I'm in a position where I tend to know well the people who are exposed to Popeye young stock. And, they certainly didn't buy them just on the basis of their sire. A friend also bought a Balou, but she wasn't aware of that until after the purchase.
That said, if I personally were going out looking for a young horse, I'd take time to look at whatever Popeyes were available, as I love mine and love the ones I've ridden. I would also go out of my way to look at some Magicals, for the same reason. But when it comes to putting up some cash, I'm going to buy the best horse I can find, even if it's out of Texas by Truck.

Agree 110%. I recently was in the market for a going AO hunter, and a green one. Who they were by, especially for the made one, was of no concern to me really. It's an interesting conversation point and nice to know if the information is there. But a nice horse is a nice horse IMO.

I did try a horse in Wellington who was by Magical. I have never sat on such a quality animal in my life. That horse was/is special, and I am sometimes a tad sad that I passed him up. I would put a lot of money on the fact that that horse will be a top hunter in the coming years.

risingstarfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:19 PM
Unfortunately, PineTree is correct on the numbers game. The Europeans treat this completely as a business. Every little farm in Germany, Holland, Belgium, breeds horses. And there are HUGE factory-type farms. It is no effort at all to see 50-100 horses, either at one farm, or in a very small area. I can think of nowhere in this country where you can do that, or breeding farms on the scale of, say, the Schockemöhle's. And they just have a different mindset than we do here. Horses aren't pets to them, they are livestock, and treated accordingly. Culling is part of the game.

The biggest hurdle that the NA breeders need to jump, however, is changing the notion of our trainers that they must go across the pond to get the best horses. It is important for breeders to hang on to a good one and make SURE it gets out there and gets shown, at an early enough age to make it feasible. You don't have to wait until they are 4 to start them, if you do it judiciously. Do you think that is what the Euros are doing? Hell no! Those 5-6 year olds that we are importing have already had some kiind of career, usually a failed jumper career, so they had to have been started at 2.

Breeders here are going to have to get more businesslike if they expect to make a dent in the European competition. Wishing and hoping isn't going to make it so.

Yes!
And, I think you will find that there are some breeders who do get this. In spite of raised eyebrows, my boys were started at 2.5 and jumping 3'9 courses at 4. That's reality.

Regarding offering lots of young horses to the consumer - this is achieved by breeding cooperatives. The Central Texas Sporthorse Breeders was one of the first groups formed to meet this need. Others have evolved as well.

We're out there - I guess we need more advertising?

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:21 PM
Those who show those Rio babies will tell you they are very difficult. Talented, yes! But there are stories. Balou is also hot, so again, those of us who travel show to show hear things that may not be politically correct for this board, but it is what it is and if you ask a question, then a response with candor should be appreciated.
Apiro is terrific. None of his babes are in the ring.
The other stallions I mentioned are starting to have babes in the ring.
You asked only about FRESH semen and I thought NA based stallions - Barb mentioned several non NA based stallions.
Voltaire is inconsistent with producing hunters.


Ummm word has it that Apiro was not so terrific this week...jumped very badly. Came in last in the 2 over fences classes but won the hack...not my definition of terrific.

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:26 PM
(snip)

Reading that we can't compete with Europe is frustrating. There are breeders based in the US who have horses that are just as well bred/ready to show/amateur friendly as those in Europe. The real struggle is the expense and travel associated with showing in North America.

I can well imagine it must be very frustrating.

But the reality is ... at least IME, Europe is a lot more buyer-friendly to people like me (a typical adult amateur wanting a nice horse to show at the A shows.)

I can go to Europe and see as many nice young horses as I have the energy to look at. And they will be priced considerably lower than a horse with comparable experience in the US, even when factoring in the plane ride to get them home.

I've attached a pic of my young horse, who will be six in March. I bought him as a coming four year old in Germany. To find one like this from a US breeder, I'd have to spend my entire annual number of vacation days trekking from farm to farm - and I'd expect to pay double what this one cost.

It's an uphill battle for American breeders, no doubt.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:36 PM
I disagree Lucass...there are several farms just in my vicinity who have lovely well bred(Golan,Rio Grande etc) young horses for less than what it probably cost you to buy and import and they are out of mares with winning records in the hunters and the gp's.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:38 PM
To find one like this from a US breeder, I'd have to spend my entire annual number of vacation days trekking from farm to farm - and I'd expect to pay double what this one cost.

It's an uphill battle for American breeders, no doubt.

I am so happy that you have found the horse of your dreams!

However, the same horse is available in this country, and can be found relatively easily. Breeders are setting up cooperatives, advertising broadly, competing at the major shows. I think that there is a great deal of misunderstanding and misinformation regarding the outstanding horses available in this country, the painstakingly established breeding programs, the huge efforts made by even the European-based registries to promote and market NA- bred horses.

I honestly am surprised by the turn that this thread has taken, but actually very happy that some cross -fertilization is ocurring between two forums.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:39 PM
I disagree Lucass...there are several farms just in my vicinity who have lovely well bred(Golan,Rio Grande etc) young horses for less than what it probably cost you to buy and import and they are out of mares with winning records in the hunters and the gp's.

Are they ready to show hunters at 3'6"?
Like now. Not in 6 mos and not at 2'6"
Have they already had a show career?

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:49 PM
Flight to Europe,hotel,,meals,and import costs. Sad to think that ppl. actually believe the propaganda the Europeans put out there, that there are not nice horses in America and they market their culls to us for the most part. We wring our hands over the killer market while the Euros have a great system...breed a zillion horses, cull the herd, keep the really good ones for the motherland and pocket great gobs of money. It takes $1.50 for one euro now I think and the Americans fall for it.

risingstarfarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:49 PM
Are they ready to show hunters at 3'6"?
Like now. Not in 6 mos and not at 2'6"
Have they already had a show career?

We are out there. Just in my small part of the world (TX, OK, LA), there are lots of nice horses ready to go out and show. Yes, I can provide references, lol.

I do have to question the requirement for 3'6 though. A lot of amateurs are quite comfortable at 3', 3'3. And, that is the North American market.

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that the thing I love the most about one of my stallions is that despite his proficiency at 4'6 and over, he's lovely enough to pack my very out of shape self at 3'3.

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:53 PM
I am so happy that you have found the horse of your dreams!

However, the same horse is available in this country, and can be found relatively easily. Breeders are setting up cooperatives, advertising broadly, competing at the major shows. I think that there is a great deal of misunderstanding and misinformation regarding the outstanding horses available in this country, the painstakingly established breeding programs, the huge efforts made by even the European-based registries to promote and market NA- bred horses.

I honestly am surprised by the turn that this thread has taken, but actually very happy that some cross -fertilization is ocurring between two forums.

Thank you. He's coming along nicely :)

But ... I really disagree with your statement about finding a similar horse here "easily."

I have no doubt there are horses of that quality being bred here. And yes, I see the advertisements.

BUT... if I want to go SEE them, you have to understand how hard it is. I can take a long weekend and go to Europe on a cheap fare and look at 100 of these horses. They will all be at least going WTC and able to jump enough for me to get an idea of what their native ability is.

By contrast, trying to see half that number here in the US would require more like 10-20 weekends (and plane fares.) Very few of these horses are at the major shows in any numbers until they are ready to hit at least the Pre Green ring. And by that time, they have $50-60k price tags on them (or more).

Don't get me wrong, I am rooting for the American breeders and I'd love to buy one here, but for an amateur like me it's incredibly difficult. The 3 year olds here tend to have much, much less education on them than comparable young horses in Europe, and are harder to assess. Even if they were easy to find in any numbers, the price tags make them much less attractive... especially when you consider how much it costs me to keep one for six months to a year while we put some education on them and get them ready to go play in the bigger sandboxes. (Unfortunately, six months board here = close to twenty grand, so that's a big deal.)

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:55 PM
I said young horses...NOT ones that have a show record already...they are 2-3 yr olds..pushing them too ffast makes for soundness issues but then that insures a future market I guess. Buy the veteran campaigner at 3 and get a new horse at FIVE when that one is broken. Brilliant!

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 09:58 PM
I disagree Lucass...there are several farms just in my vicinity who have lovely well bred(Golan,Rio Grande etc) young horses for less than what it probably cost you to buy and import and they are out of mares with winning records in the hunters and the gp's.

Well, it's a free country :D

I am sure that there might be some very nice young horses in your neighborhood but I very much doubt they cost less than the ones I looked at (and bought) in Europe. And I also would be willing to bet that they have a lot less education.

Like a lot of amateurs, I buy individuals based on performance and conformation. I really don't care what its mommy or daddy did and to be honest - I get really turned off when someone shows me a $50k three year old that is not even saddle broke yet "but we know he's the next world beater because his sire/dam is ..."

Just my $.02 but there are a lot of amateur customers out there and that is what the American breeders are up against.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:00 PM
Well I guess the culls in Europe would be suitable for ammies here...but you are fooling yourself if you think the Europeans are showing you their best horses.

showjumpers66
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:02 PM
:) Apiro showed on Wednesday ... he did two over fences classes in which he was 6th & 8th out of 9. He NEVER jumps badly, but he can have green moments such as needing to be a bit more even in his pace. We scratched on Thursday as he was a little sore, so he did not do the hack or the other two over fences classes. He is coming back from a fractured hock and has not really shown since March of 2008. He is going to be very green in comparison and does not have anywhere near the miles of the other horses in his division. Give him a chance to get his wheels under himself and he will be fine. Better yet, go see him in person. :yes:


Ummm word has it that Apiro was not so terrific this week...jumped very badly. Came in last in the 2 over fences classes but won the hack...not my definition of terrific.

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:04 PM
I said young horses...NOT ones that have a show record already...they are 2-3 yr olds..pushing them too ffast makes for soundness issues but then that insures a future market I guess. Buy the veteran campaigner at 3 and get a new horse at FIVE when that one is broken. Brilliant!

This is a common statement from US breeders... not picking on you, Kaleigh, but this stance is one thing that drives buyers like me away.

My oldest horse is 23 this year and I can count on the fingers of one hand the days he has been off during his career, including from things like pulled shoes, etc. I showed him in all three rings (hunters, jumpers and eq) and he's still going strong teaching young riders the ropes.

My "main" horse will be 12 this year and came from the same program as the young horse I just posted a photo of. He's quite sound and quite fit and I have no reason to believe he won't stay that way since he's been in a good professional program since I bought him as a coming four year old - already going WTC and jumping around with no issues.

You can get as high and mighty as you like but the Europeans understand how to market their young stock to buyers like me and that includes putting some education on them. I've been doing this a long time now and have found that approach very successful... YMMV.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:10 PM
Save it for the breeders...of which I'm not one:) Still stand by what I said about the Euros selling their culls and keeping the good ones.

Lucassb
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:11 PM
Well I guess the culls in Europe would be suitable for ammies here...but you are fooling yourself if you think the Europeans are showing you their best horses.

I am perfectly happy to buy a European horse that isn't going to be able to succeed at the World Cup level. The horse you make derogatory statements about and call a "cull" is often exactly the kind of horse a buyer like me DOES want. I want a nice, pretty, athletic jumper with a good mind to jump at *most* 4' or maybe 4'6" (Derby horse.) And lots and lots of them are only asked to jump 3' or 3'6"... which is where most amateurs ride and show.

Again, the attitude above is one of the things that really turns buyers like me off. Europeans have made a huge investment in developing a PRODUCT that sells in the US market. Go ahead and call them culls if you like, but there is a reason that so many are sold to this market, and the reason is because they are extremely *suitable* for the task at hand.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:14 PM
:) Apiro showed on Wednesday ... he did two over fences classes in which he was 6th & 8th out of 9. He NEVER jumps badly, but he can have green moments such as needing to be a bit more even in his pace. We scratched on Thursday as he was a little sore, so he did not do the hack or the other two over fences classes. He is coming back from a fractured hock and has not really shown since March of 2008. He is going to be very green in comparison and does not have anywhere near the miles of the other horses in his division. Give him a chance to get his wheels under himself and he will be fine. Better yet, go see him in person. :yes:

Ok..just relaying what was told to me by a pro showing there.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:18 PM
I said young horses...NOT ones that have a show record already...they are 2-3 yr olds..pushing them too ffast makes for soundness issues but then that insures a future market I guess. Buy the veteran campaigner at 3 and get a new horse at FIVE when that one is broken. Brilliant!

Ok, Then you can't provide what the market is looking for. That would be a 5-7 year old ready or almost ready to show green hunter.
No harm in that.
But it shows why you can't compete with the European breeders.

This is a common refrain from many of the US beeders. It's an excuse why they don't have competitive horses for sale.
I don't mean to pick on you in particular but i hear this constantly. If you go look at their horses they may have some lovely looking horses but on the other hand they may be 4 years old and not even broken to lead yet. LOL

Faircourt
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:19 PM
Great post, Lucasb. I think sharing your experience as a buyer, coupled with what several other posters have shared about their experiences buying in Europe is simply reality and how for the most part buying is done - and it must be working and be pretty cost effective or people wouldn't still be doing it. As a breeder, it's obviously important to know what people like about the experience - many horses well started in one location - it's basically one stop shopping and as you said, less expensiveand more time effective in the long run than sorting through endless videos and making repeatedly trips all over NA to find the same animal. I can certainly see your point.

That said, I think NA breeders are really stepping up to the plate to produce quality animals - on another thread, greyfox indicates that she is breeding 26 mares this year - not quite 100 head but certainly a good start towards a more one stop shopping approach, and from what I have read she does a good job getting her stallions in the ring with top professionals to be competitive.

I love threads like this that really educate me as a (super) small time breeder in what people are looking for as buyers. Also love the variety of responses in terms of experiences with various bloodlines, it's really interesting!

Kaleigh007
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:20 PM
AND it explains why we will get beat on a continuous basis by the Europeans:no:. Now back to the original topic...I really like the Ironman babies. It seems like he crosses well with many different types of mares and can produce a horse for the plethora of ppl who want to just jump 2' or for the rider that wants to do the grand prix's. Nice horse!

3Dogs
Jan. 15, 2010, 10:52 PM
There are breeders in this country with quality stallions breeding many more than 26 mares. That said, if you have a good stallion in Europe, let's take the Blue Hors now "retired" stallion Dr. Doolittle, well he bred 130 mares his first year. That was because he performed very well in testing. Then they retired him due to poor produce.
Here, we breed to stallions marketed as hunter stallions because of ? what? What is it that we are evaluating and who does it? What standard to we go by?

Do we even know how many mares are bred by stallion x, how many are bred to quality mares, how many offspring go to or are in show homes, how many have good starters, how many get to their 4-5 year old levels ready, as Lucassb points out, to enter a ring? Nope. No clue.
In Europe, we can count on research as to breeding potential, bloodlines, and given that they don't breed as a hobby, or just because they "have a mare", or breed to a so so stallion, chances are they have decent bloodlines and they do have a great starter program. We are going to compete how? Doesn't matter that WE don't care about the bloodlines, they do!

That said, I forgot to mention a wonderful stallion Crown Affair, who shows in the 4 foot AND in the A/O's and has a temperment of a puppy dog!

hntrjmprpro45
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:10 AM
Here are my thoughts as a trainer... I like buying young horses around the ages of 1-3ish and start them myself. I sometimes buy horses for clients or as prospective sales horses. Generally what I am looking for is a horse with at least some decent bloodlines, good brains, and great movers. For the hunters, bloodlines aren't quite as important to me so long as they are well built and can move- mainly because a good majority of horses can jump 3'-3'6". With jumpers I am more interested in bloodlines since they must jump much higher and have more athletic abilities than most hunters. All of the hunter stallions listed so far would be on my list- personally I really like Apiro and Popeye K. Also, I wouldn't turn my nose up at lesser known stallions as long as the young horse was a quality horse.

I guess a lot of what trainers want depend on the expected outcome of the young horse. If I am looking for an ammy horse that needs to be safe and somewhat fancy, I am not going to be so picky about its pedigree. However, if I am looking for something that is going to win a bunch of national titles then I would be very choosey when it came to bloodlines and would expect to pay a premium price for that horse.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:28 AM
FWIW, I bought each of my prospects on one-day trips. Saw 5-10 young horses. 2-4 yo. Everything 3 and over was backed. Watched them free jump. Rode them. If they were broke we jumped them under saddle. Paid well less than $50K. Took them home in my trailer. The older is 7 this year. He was in the 3 foot ring with his AA at 6. The younger is 5 this year. He was in the 2'6" ring with his AA at 4. The older went to Devon as I said previously. The younger will probably be a jumper or an event horse, but will do hunters until he is 6 to put some nice mileage on him.

My point being...it can be done in this country. Lots of leg work and word of mouth upfront.

lauriep
Jan. 16, 2010, 08:35 AM
Kaleigh, you really should know what you are talking about before you shoot your mouth off. The culls you dismiss so avidly are the ones who miss the upper levels as JUMPERS. They are about as far away from being junk as our horses are. Since we are speaking of HUNTERS here, buying culled JUMPERS from Europe means that you are getting a well-bred, started horse who was just not good enough to compete internationally/nationally as a JUMPER. The Euros are MASTERS at making these decisions early and quickly.

Do we get their top, top stock for the jumpers? Sometimes. But since they don't HAVE hunters over there, they are delighted to have another market for the ones who don't cut it. And, they can afford to let them go cheaply, although not as cheap as they once were. They are catching on to what makes a great hunter and are starting to charge for them. I agree w/Lucassb on her pricing, but wonder how long that advantage will be there.

And I would like to know what these HUNTER breeding farms are that have more than 26 mares. Cuz I'm not aware of them. And that is certainly the way this country needs to move to compete. And keep the emotions out of pricing. Price them for what their level of training/worth is, not because you have X$ invested or because they are your pet. When selling weanlings and yearlings, your profit line will be very small, if any. These horses aren't worth a lot until they start under saddle, period. Then, and only then, can you ask the kind of price that might actually make you some money. Price isn't based on how old they are or how long you have fed them. They are live animals, feeding/farrier/vet are givens that are largely unrecoverable early on. Pricing should be based on talent and experience first and foremost.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:41 AM
I hope that Jill will not mind me copying her list of broodmares and her planned breedings for 2010- I am doing so in response to the above poster's admission that she is unaware of hunter breeding farms with any volume. I think that this list should demonstrate if need be the depth and breadth of quality being bred in this country.

Mares:
The Rose Line Trak by Hennessey to Federalist
Mienta DWB by Best of Luck to Federalist
Sequel OLD by Sir Caletto to Redwine
Sands of Time TB by Jones Hall to Redwine
Corlandia OLD by Corlando to Redwine
2 new Voltaire mares, one to Redwine and one to Aloha
Resist Me Not TB by Prince Stanley to Redwine
Tahitian Moon TB by Garanteed Gold to Redwine
Rio Elegante HANN by Rio Grande to Redwine
Grand Affair Oldenburg by Grande Saber to Redwine
Grande Desire Oldenburg by Grande Saber to Redwine
Debutante Hanoverian/TB by Don Alfredo to Redwine
Paisley OLD by Paparazzo to Aloha
Portia OLD by Paparazzo to Romantic Stare
Mistletoe HOLS by Acadius to Federalist
Oiselle HOLS by Quinar to Redwine
Metsonized TB by Mehmet to Redwine
All of the Above OLD to Aloha
Phantasia OLD by Phantast to Romantic Star
Laws of Nature DWB by Esop's Fable to Federalist
Aminty TB to Federalist
Raintime TrakX by Tempelritter to Romantic Star
Radieschen OLD by Rubinstein to Redwine
Cash Lake TB to Federalist
Record Performance TB to Romantic Star

This is the line-up at Gray Fox Farm in California. There are others, elsewhere. Breeders everywhere are organizing cooperatives precisely to meet the need of trainers and buyers to see more horses in a more concentrated location. Watch and see what happens in the coming years!

Kaleigh007
Jan. 16, 2010, 10:43 AM
Thank you Sakura Hills. You keep drinking that kool aid Laurie. You must be a trust fund baby and have never run a business because a business that runs at a loss are not in business very long. Lucky for the Euros that they found a market for their culls in the USA. First and foremost it should be on temperment and conformation ESPECIALLY for you amateurs. As long as there are Americans like you to snatch their culls, they will be turning a profit cause the rest will be on a speed boat to France. We don't have that luxury here cause our culls have to be cared for from foal to grave. What flavor is that kool aid???

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:32 AM
Thank you Sakura Hills. You keep drinking that kool aid Laurie. You must be a trust fund baby and have never run a business because a business that runs at a loss are not in business very long. Lucky for the Euros that they found a market for their culls in the USA. First and foremost it should be on temperment and conformation ESPECIALLY for you amateurs. As long as there are Americans like you to snatch their culls, they will be turning a profit cause the rest will be on a speed boat to France. We don't have that luxury here cause our culls have to be cared for from foal to grave. What flavor is that kool aid???

I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance regarding LaurieP. She is hardly an Amateur and she runs a successful barn. LMAO

For an Amateur horse yes, temperament is important, conformation less so. What's important is can the horse do it's intended job.
If the job is jumping around a hunter course in good form with good movement then that's the job description. There are no bonus points for how it's bred. The Euro 'culls' meet that job description.

And until American breeders can produce the same finished product then Shopping in Europe is the way to go.
The difference is not in how well bred the horses are. It's in the business management, training and marketing skills. ( and maybe avoiding stallions du jour without a performance or produce record).
If it's a business conduct it that way. if it's a hobby then don't complain about what it's costing you. Don't complain that you have xx $ in a young horse and get that much in a sale. Find out why you can't get good prices for young stock and adjust your business plan. If you think you are goint to make money on foals that isn't going to happen. On made up horses, yes.

Sing Mia Song
Jan. 16, 2010, 11:38 AM
You keep drinking that kool aid Laurie. You must be a trust fund baby and have never run a business because a business that runs at a loss are not in business very long.

Um, Laurie is a professional. A consummate professional. You might want to click on that little link in her signature before you take another bite of that foot that's in your mouth.

Many posters have already explained why they prefer to go to Europe--it makes sense to them from both fiscal and time-management investment. That's valuable information for the American breeder, who is looking to compete. The Europeans obviously have the market--how can American breeders adapt?

This has been a fascinating discussion, except for your posts, Kaleigh. You seem to want to argue instead of discuss, or to post falsehoods about stallions based on information you received second or third-hand. Is that really the way that you want to promote the American-bred sporthorse?

Kaleigh007
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:31 PM
Anyone can hang a shingle out professing to be a professional(:rolleyes:)...I have no idea about the professionalism of LaurieP...I just happen to disagree with her not being able to find quality horses right here at home. What falsehoods about stallions are you talking about??? Aprio?? Info came from a pro that watched him show. Conformation not important??? How long do you think a badly conformed horse is going to stay sound jumping and showing????

hunteryperson
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:35 PM
Anyone can hang a shingle out professing to be a professional(:rolleyes:)...I have no idea about the professionalism of LaurieP...I just happen to disagree with her not being able to find quality horses right here at home. What falsehoods about stallions are you talking about??? Aprio?? Info came from a pro that watched him show. Conformation not important??? How long do you think a badly conformed horse is going to stay sound jumping and showing????

I'm not saying she is right or wrong and I think LaurieP is a consumate professional. I did hear the same think about the stallion from people who were at WEG. Maybe it was first week jitters but he's certainly not green.

TSWJB
Jan. 16, 2010, 12:51 PM
so approximately how much are these horses being bought for in europe that are so much more attractive to the american buyers? i am very curious. because the horses that i have seen coming from europe have been pretty expensive. like in the 50k plus range. an occassional 30k horse but you still have to ship 7.5+ in shipping and quarantine.
i do admit that they are nice horses. and you know they will do the job. and they step into the pre green, first year green rings coming from europe with lots of jumper experience. it doesnt really seem fair. the american breeder has to compete with the european horse that has tons of mileage but gets a brand new card when it steps on american soil. green!
and i do agree with one of the problems with the american breeders. they dont want to keep the horses until they are jumping 3.6ft. and that is what the average show customers seem to want. a 3.6ft horse that can step back in the pre green ring. i think that it is soooo expensive to train and show here that the breeders do not want to invest the money. i read somewhere that in europe they have tons of smaller shows where the horses can get good mileage at a cheap cost. and i bet there are alot of really good riders that do not charge an arm and a leg to ride these animals in the shows. its astronomical what the pros over here want to take a horse around a 2.6ft course! but other riders do not have the experience to do it. it takes a good rider to give confident miles to a young horse. and over here when you are that good rider you can charge alot for it.
from reading and hearing from different people, the europeans have training centers where everyone can get good training. so they probably have alot better riders and more of them. we do not have that. it costs alot of money to get good training. and if you are not a top $$$ customer, many trainers do not want to invest the time into you.
so my personal thoughts are, that we have good horses. but they are horses that may walk trot canter and free jump and thats it. or are barely broke. and that is not want the market wants. until we find a system of training these horses, people are going to want to go to europe.
i bought a young horse and i am bringing it along slowly. i enjoy the process. but my friend just bought a horse one year older and its down at WEF showing in the pre greens and its really fancy and nice! it just seems much more exciting! and think of the time frame. i have had mine 2 years, she has had hers less than one month. and it did come from europe.
this is something i think the american breeders are really going to have to deal with. maybe starting training centers for these young horses would be the key. and bring on working students and teach them how to ride these horses. and make it so they do not have to pay $100 bucks an hour to learn the tricks of the trade.

Faircourt
Jan. 16, 2010, 01:52 PM
Sakura, I think Laurie's post was actually in response by this quote from 3Dogs on Page 4 "There are breeders in this country with quality stallions breeding many more than 26 mares. " I'd be interested in learning who and where these hunter breeding farms are as well. I just don't see it done here in North America as it is in Europe.

Kayleigh, I suggest you go to Laurie's website and read a little bit about her and her partner, Junior, before suggesting that she is merely "hanging out a shingle". That couldn't be further from the truth. It's just plain stupid NOT to listen to what REAL professionals in the business have to say, because frankly, they are the market all us breeders are trying to accommodate. You can accuse them of being wrong and drinking kool aid all you like, but that sure isn't going to get their business back. It's certainly not going to be feasible for a small breeder like myself to breed 100 mares a season, but I certainly can't complain when people don't make a 100 mile trip to come look at my foal crop of two. I think that is part of the reason that auctions such as the Select Pony Breeders Auction and others like it became so popular - they were a great place for people to see more than one well bred pony at a time. And I think referring to the absolutely stunning horse Lucasb shared a picture of in her post as "European Junk" is just plain ignorant.

Since you have already indicated that you are not a breeder, it's a little silly for you to lecture anyone - in my opinion this thread is really an education for breeders in NA as to ways to compete with the market in Europe. It's just a fact that right now, a high number of buyers import horses. It would seem to me that instead of arguing about it and accusing them of accepting Europe's junk, we would be a lot more open to why people are traveling overseas and what we could do to compete for that business.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 16, 2010, 02:07 PM
[quote=Faircourt;4622381

...what we could do to compete for that business.[/quote]

This is what underlies my original post. I was asking if there were any particular stallions available in NA that appeal to the professional and the exhibitor with a view to producing with them in mind. Breeders are exploring ideas such as cooperatives, "sales days", organizing regional buying trips for trainers and buyers, etc.

We, too, remain small and do so for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that we seek to develop and compete our products---which is why we chose the Ocala area to establish our farm. The cost of getting show mileage on horses in NA is prohibitive unless the venues, both recognized and unrecognized, are readily accessible.

We have learned a great deal from this thread and hope that the dialogue continues.

grayfox
Jan. 16, 2010, 02:34 PM
I think it's so great to have this conversation. I'm breeding 30 mares this year because it's been pretty easy to sell them and I've added a lot of quality mares. A lot of my sales are to trainers so I think that the climate is changing for buying young horses. I buy in Europe also and I think that some of the things that people mention are wonderful about Europe, the horses are close together, they breed a lot more horses then we do. You can go to a region that has the bloodlines that you like and find multiples by stallions that your interested in. I think the problems with Germany is that the exchange rate sucks right now and no end in sight. There are a lot of less then honest agents so you should know someone. Almost without a doubt your horse will be marked up through agents before you buy. Not that the US is much different but we know most of the players here.

I don't think we are getting culls but horses that don't suit their needs. Horses that are more hunter like are not appreciated. The stallions breed many more mares over there, a popular stallion will breed like 500 or more mares a season. They aren't breeding for hunters so out of a huge crop just by sheer numbers there will be some that are better suited for the American market. Nothing wrong with that. I think it is harder for US breeders to get the babies to a point where they are going around and a lot don't even attempt it. The babies have to leave and go to good trainers and show a little. I think there are lots of quality prospects in the US but it's up to the breeders to try a little harder to get the product out and the trainers to consider looking in the US. I don't think without effort on both sides it's going to work, but I think it will be financially beneficial to everyone.

lauriep
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:13 PM
I hope that Jill will not mind me copying her list of broodmares and her planned breedings for 2010- I am doing so in response to the above poster's admission that she is unaware of hunter breeding farms with any volume. I think that this list should demonstrate if need be the depth and breadth of quality being bred in this country.

Mares:
The Rose Line Trak by Hennessey to Federalist
Mienta DWB by Best of Luck to Federalist
Sequel OLD by Sir Caletto to Redwine
Sands of Time TB by Jones Hall to Redwine
Corlandia OLD by Corlando to Redwine
2 new Voltaire mares, one to Redwine and one to Aloha
Resist Me Not TB by Prince Stanley to Redwine
Tahitian Moon TB by Garanteed Gold to Redwine
Rio Elegante HANN by Rio Grande to Redwine
Grand Affair Oldenburg by Grande Saber to Redwine
Grande Desire Oldenburg by Grande Saber to Redwine
Debutante Hanoverian/TB by Don Alfredo to Redwine
Paisley OLD by Paparazzo to Aloha
Portia OLD by Paparazzo to Romantic Stare
Mistletoe HOLS by Acadius to Federalist
Oiselle HOLS by Quinar to Redwine
Metsonized TB by Mehmet to Redwine
All of the Above OLD to Aloha
Phantasia OLD by Phantast to Romantic Star
Laws of Nature DWB by Esop's Fable to Federalist
Aminty TB to Federalist
Raintime TrakX by Tempelritter to Romantic Star
Radieschen OLD by Rubinstein to Redwine
Cash Lake TB to Federalist
Record Performance TB to Romantic Star

This is the line-up at Gray Fox Farm in California. There are others, elsewhere. Breeders everywhere are organizing cooperatives precisely to meet the need of trainers and buyers to see more horses in a more concentrated location. Watch and see what happens in the coming years!

If you had noticed, I specifically mentioned Gray Fox Farm as having a large breeding program and buying really GOOD broodmares. I meant in addition to her operation, what other HUNTER breeders do so on a large scale?

lauriep
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:17 PM
Anyone can hang a shingle out professing to be a professional(:rolleyes:)...I have no idea about the professionalism of LaurieP...I just happen to disagree with her not being able to find quality horses right here at home. What falsehoods about stallions are you talking about??? Aprio?? Info came from a pro that watched him show. Conformation not important??? How long do you think a badly conformed horse is going to stay sound jumping and showing????

Where the hell did you get the idea that I didn't think you could find quality horses in the US????? We have 10 QUALITY horses in our barn alone. If you read for comprehension, I was talking about the obstacles that NA breeders have to overcome to out-market the Europeans. No one is more behind the American/Canadian breeding programs than I, but I am also a realist on our "system" vs their SYSTEM.

Thanks for the props, all, but Kaleigh would rather be "right" than correct. Her posts aren't well thought out or well informed. I could give a hoot if she bothers to read my bio. Although I am one of the few out here who has it ALL out there to be seen...

lauriep
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:20 PM
Thank you Sakura Hills. You keep drinking that kool aid Laurie. You must be a trust fund baby and have never run a business because a business that runs at a loss are not in business very long. Lucky for the Euros that they found a market for their culls in the USA. First and foremost it should be on temperment and conformation ESPECIALLY for you amateurs. As long as there are Americans like you to snatch their culls, they will be turning a profit cause the rest will be on a speed boat to France. We don't have that luxury here cause our culls have to be cared for from foal to grave. What flavor is that kool aid???

WTFruitbat are you talking about? Put down the cocktail and try some rational thinking.

Trust fund baby!! Oh. My. God. That is perhaps the funniest thing I have read this, um, lifetime! You CAN read, can't you??? Try it, you will find out a whole WORLD of facts!

lauriep
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:35 PM
This is what underlies my original post. I was asking if there were any particular stallions available in NA that appeal to the professional and the exhibitor with a view to producing with them in mind. Breeders are exploring ideas such as cooperatives, "sales days", organizing regional buying trips for trainers and buyers, etc.

We, too, remain small and do so for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that we seek to develop and compete our products---which is why we chose the Ocala area to establish our farm. The cost of getting show mileage on horses in NA is prohibitive unless the venues, both recognized and unrecognized, are readily accessible.

We have learned a great deal from this thread and hope that the dialogue continues.

Sakura, IMO, I wouldn't OVER worry about the stallion's name recognition. I think if you have a vision of what you want to produce, and that vision can do the job and you stick with it, your youngsters will get found. I think there are many stallions out there who have competed, or have competing offspring, that aren't necessarily unknown, but also aren't the fad du jour. It is much more important that you know your mares' strengths and weaknesses inside and out, and breed to improve or maintain those. If you do this and have a clear goal, your babies will get found.

Showing in hand is just a good way of getting name recognition before they are old enough to jump. If you can also produce some "pretty," you will attract those buyers who want to play in that pool, and are willing to buy young. These buyers don't necessarily look for a specific stallion's get. They are looking for properly conformed, beautiful movers who SHOULD be able to perform. The only stallions I have a preference for are those whose kids I've actually had hands on experience with. As far as all the others, I'm completely open to a nice horse regardless of the bloodlines. If it looks and moves like what MY view of a hunter is, then I would be interested in it.

Right now, there are several stallions mentioned on this thread who have GREAT name recognition (here) but no kids out there performing yet. So we continue to breed the dream. HOWEVER, if when those kids hit the rings, and they can't get out of their own way, or take 2 hours of prep, the sires will be distant memories in a nanosecond.

hAlterHorse
Jan. 16, 2010, 05:46 PM
Does Redwine have a show record?

I see him recommended as a hunter sire on this board a lot, for a wide variety of mares. Obviously his offspring are not yet old enough to be in the ring. Are his bloodlines known to produce hunters? He certainly seems like a lovely horse and I'm not trying to knock him in any way, just trying to understand what makes him the "hot" stallion right now, without a major show career or offspring in the ring.

Thanks!

CBoylen
Jan. 16, 2010, 06:19 PM
Many posters have already explained why they prefer to go to Europe--it makes sense to them from both fiscal and time-management investment. That's valuable information for the American breeder, who is looking to compete. The Europeans obviously have the market--how can American breeders adapt?

I guess I should take the other side of this discussion. I don't shop in Europe, never have, probably never will. Of the horses we've had in the past 20 years, 12 have been homebreds, 7 American-bred purchases, and 3 US purchases of imports (all jumpers, and one a TB).
However, shopping for a hunter prospect in this country is hard. If you don't want to pay premium price on something already going in the pregreens (I don't), then there is a lot of the so-called combing of the fields. There is a lot of just plain junk out there. There are a lot of overpriced horses whose breeders want to tell you about their inspection scores and their terrific bloodlines, while the horse stands there with an ugly head that killed any hunter career from day one. People do not start their horses early enough or train them enough to make them cost-effective purchases. If the horse isn't backed yet, that's a whole 'nother year in board and training and bills and more bills until you can even tell if it was worth what you paid for it in the first place, let alone decide what you can re-sell it for.

And, since we started this discussion with regard to bloodlines, there is a lack of performance-bred horses in this country. I know I said most people don't pay attention to the lines as long as the horse is good, and most don't. But if you want to ensure the horse has half a chance at making it to the ring, it needs to come from lines that have made it to the ring. Most of the "hunter" offspring I see advertised are out of mares that I remember from the IHF that never made it to the actual show ring because they didn't jump well enough. They're by stallions that haven't produced anything that has gone beyond the IHF, or that haven't shown themselves, or that weren't any good when they did show. None of that makes me want to buy a horse, and it certainly doesn't give the horse an above average chance of being a show horse. If it's a good horse, people will buy it, no matter where it comes from or how it's bred. But the product has to be produced, packaged, and marketed, and American breeders are not doing any of those things up to par.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 16, 2010, 06:31 PM
so approximately how much are these horses being bought for in europe that are so much more attractive to the american buyers? i am very curious. because the horses that i have seen coming from europe have been pretty expensive. like in the 50k plus range. an occassional 30k horse but you still have to ship 7.5+ in shipping and quarantine.
i do admit that they are nice horses. and you know they will do the job. and they step into the pre green, first year green rings coming from europe with lots of jumper experience. it doesnt really seem fair. the american breeder has to compete with the european horse that has tons of mileage but gets a brand new card when it steps on american soil. green!
and i do agree with one of the problems with the american breeders. they dont want to keep the horses until they are jumping 3.6ft. and that is what the average show customers seem to want. a 3.6ft horse that can step back in the pre green ring. i think that it is soooo expensive to train and show here that the breeders do not want to invest the money. i read somewhere that in europe they have tons of smaller shows where the horses can get good mileage at a cheap cost. and i bet there are alot of really good riders that do not charge an arm and a leg to ride these animals in the shows. its astronomical what the pros over here want to take a horse around a 2.6ft course! but other riders do not have the experience to do it. it takes a good rider to give confident miles to a young horse. and over here when you are that good rider you can charge alot for it.
from reading and hearing from different people, the europeans have training centers where everyone can get good training. so they probably have alot better riders and more of them. we do not have that. it costs alot of money to get good training. and if you are not a top $$$ customer, many trainers do not want to invest the time into you.
so my personal thoughts are, that we have good horses. but they are horses that may walk trot canter and free jump and thats it. or are barely broke. and that is not want the market wants. until we find a system of training these horses, people are going to want to go to europe.
i bought a young horse and i am bringing it along slowly. i enjoy the process. but my friend just bought a horse one year older and its down at WEF showing in the pre greens and its really fancy and nice! it just seems much more exciting! and think of the time frame. i have had mine 2 years, she has had hers less than one month. and it did come from europe.
this is something i think the american breeders are really going to have to deal with. maybe starting training centers for these young horses would be the key. and bring on working students and teach them how to ride these horses. and make it so they do not have to pay $100 bucks an hour to learn the tricks of the trade.

Great post. Lots of good points.

3Dogs
Jan. 16, 2010, 07:25 PM
Sorry to start a dogfight. I meant 26 mares total, not just on one farm. There are a number of stallions in the US who breed more than 26 mares a year and HAVE bred more than 26 mares and have for years and years - only where is the data? Nowhere. Is it breeders fault? I don't think so. So we rely on word of mouth. Or "I had ONE xx by yy I think is fabulous". Or someone comments about pretty babies with bling.
How many know of Triad Farm Hanoverians and the success of Toltec, one of their get? Nice stallions too and a black one with more hunter show experience and data than some mentioned here. Sure I own one from TFH , but headed to jumpers. But then, might make an upper level hunter too or derby horse. Sure has great bloodlines for jumping. One can only hope! :yes:

Hard to know what the future holds. One breeder may choose a great mare base, one breeder a great stallion AND a good mare base, one a stallion and NO mare base, but until they get to the ring to show, won't know what combinations really work. And since we don't have ANY data to work on, we go back to opinion, anecdote and a few folks who know what they are talking about :lol: Hopefully, with HBIF/more effort by USEF, god, even the Chronicle (could they please more routinely post breeding for the hunters - and don't say they can't - for many it IS available) - data will start to emerge.

If you want to see a lot of babies on one farm that are older than what's promised from Gray Fox, drop on by Silverhorne or Edgar's. Both the last two (I believe) have starter programs built into their breeding operations. Without that, I will say it is very expensive to get horses started and then into the ring here- I know, I am trying it. Bred, kept, backed, now in training - in retrospect, had I been more clear headed, I would have concluded I could have found a (more than one) well started 4 year old, most likely in Europe (only because of the "starter" programs) for less dollars and known a lot more about the horse to boot. Sad but true in my case. I am not discouraged just more realistic. But I don't own a farm, which makes a big difference.

Allyn M
Jan. 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
Great Thread !!! Hope I can contribute some additional information and perhaps ask a few questions of the main posters.

From the viewpoint of the horse I believe that although you may be breeding to a certain criteria that when the horse is born he may not be suited to that criteria so that since we are breeding for horses that will be able to jump well over 4 ft. some won't make it. By the same token hunters buyers are looking for a special conformation look which includes a low set neck and a more reserved movement . When our babies are yearlings we begin to bring them into the arena and look for those qualities . Perhaps after they begin to mature we will free jump them to see which ones will be great jumpers and which will jump with a hunter technique . That pretty much gives us an idea about where they are headed . I am sure I will get flamed for this but our horses are saddled and ridden in a round pen the summer of their two year old year. They are usually turned out again and brought in the following spring to be ridden WTC maybe lead changes . If at that time we have a horse or horses I feel are suitable only for a pro rider I tell everyone this fact so that amateur riders do not get involved with a horse that is too much for them. Our stallion , Simsalabim, throws a wonderful temperament so his foals mostly are being ridden by amateurs.

Now for the money and the business aspect . I honestly do not mind how much money someone makes on our horses after they are sold . This is a tough business requiring lots of work and I hope everyone makes something. The differences I believe will be local because prices discussed on the East and
West coasts are higher then in the Mid-West. I have honored the trainers we deal with by not putting our prices on our web site and I was slammed for that so I am now going to put a range of prices for age groups.

East Coast Hunter buyers must have high asking prices for their finished product if they can afford to purchase a horse in Europe for 25,000 and then ship it here and show it to sell. How much does a good pre green horse go for on the East Coast/ West Coast ??

CBoylen
Jan. 16, 2010, 08:26 PM
East Coast Hunter buyers must have high asking prices for their finished product if they can afford to purchase a horse in Europe for 25,000 and then ship it here and show it to sell. How much does a good pre green horse go for on the East Coast/ West Coast ??
Presuming nothing goes wrong (ha), the buyer that purchases in that range should make a profit if they bought the right horse (ha, again). One ready to go win in the pregreens is a high five to low six figure horse, whereas one that is winning in the pregreens already, that looks to be a future winning 3'6" horse, could be anywhere in the low to mid six figures depending on how good it actually is. But if the horse is average in the pregreen ring, or bottoms out at 3', it's back in the five figure range and the owner has probably lost money on it getting it to that point.

grayfox
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:26 PM
Does Redwine have a show record?

I see him recommended as a hunter sire on this board a lot, for a wide variety of mares. Obviously his offspring are not yet old enough to be in the ring. Are his bloodlines known to produce hunters? He certainly seems like a lovely horse and I'm not trying to knock him in any way, just trying to understand what makes him the "hot" stallion right now, without a major show career or offspring in the ring.

Thanks!
Redwine does have a show career, he came out last year with John French at Thermal and did well. He didn't show all breeding season because he's busy. He just got to Wellington today where he'll be ridden by Peter Pletcher for the next few weeks. He has a few horses in Germany that are old enough to start jumping. Here is one that's probably headed for the US for a career in the hunters. It's Redwine first being shown by John French and then one of his 4 years that is still in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSMVbY_DpgQ&feature=player_embedded

3Dogs
Jan. 16, 2010, 09:45 PM
Since you brought it up, he showed for some weeks at Thermal. I was at Thermal for the second week of his showing. As a horse of some age from Europe, what level did he show to there? And what division will he be going into with Peter - first year green?

Here are the results from USEF:

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

4502 2009 DESERT CIRCUIT IV
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 2/17/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
19 Training Hunter 15 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
24 Baby Green Hunter 8 7 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
25 Baby Green Hunter 8 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
26 Baby Green Hunter 8 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
27 Baby Green Hunter 8 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
28 Baby Green Hunter Under Saddle 8 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
DDDD Baby Green Hunter Championship 8 1 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4503 2009 DESERT CIRCUIT V
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 2/24/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
5 Low Hunter 66 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
6 Low Hunter 62 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
7 Low Hunter 59 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
8 Low Hunter 59 2 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
9 Low Hunter Under Saddle 16 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Division: 3-FOOT PRE-GREEN HUNTER Rating: C
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
29 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 20 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
30 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 21 3 0.00 0.00 15.00 0.00 37.50 FRENCH, JOHN
31 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 19 4 0.00 0.00 10.00 0.00 30.00 FRENCH, JOHN
32 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 20 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
33 Pre-Green Hunter Under Saddle 18 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 25.00 0.00 67.50

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4617 2009 DESERT CIRCUIT VI
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 3/3/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
5.1 Low Hunter 44 4 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
6 Low Hunter 45 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
7 Low Hunter 41 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
8 Low Hunter 41 5 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
9 Low Hunter Under Saddle 16 5 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Division: PRE-GREEN HUNTER Rating: C
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
29 $250 Pre-Green Hunter-FP 19 7 0.00 0.00 3.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
30 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 18 3 0.00 0.00 15.00 0.00 37.50 FRENCH, JOHN
31 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 18 1 0.00 0.00 25.00 0.00 75.00 FRENCH, JOHN
32 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 18 2 0.00 0.00 20.00 0.00 62.50 FRENCH, JOHN
33 Pre-Green Hunter Under Saddle 18 7 0.00 0.00 3.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 66.00 0.00 175.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
317379 2009 DESERT CIRCUIT VII
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 3/10/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
5 Low Hunter 20 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
6 Low Hunter 17 4 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
7 Low Hunter 18 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
8 Low Hunter 16 3 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
9 Low Hunter Under Saddle 7 7 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Division: PRE-GREEN HUNTER Rating: C
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
29 $250 Pre-Green Hunter FP 11 4 0.00 0.00 5.00 0.00 30.00 FRENCH, JOHN
30 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 11 5 0.00 0.00 4.00 0.00 25.00 FRENCH, JOHN
31 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 10 3 0.00 0.00 10.00 0.00 37.50 FRENCH, JOHN
32 $250 Pre-Green Hunter 10 2 0.00 0.00 15.00 0.00 62.50 FRENCH, JOHN
33 Pre-Green Hunter Under Saddle 8 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 FRENCH, JOHN
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 34.00 0.00 155.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
315423 2009 DRESSAGE DERBY
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 9/4/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: Training Level Open, Test 3 & 4 Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Dressage Percentage Rider Name
203 Training Level, Test 3 Open 2 1 4.00 0.00 4.00 0.00 70.00 SAVAGE, SANDY
204 Training Level, Test 4 Open 3 2 3.00 0.00 3.00 0.00 69.60 SAVAGE, SANDY
TOTALS: 7.00 0.00 7.00 0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
315300 2009 SACRAMENTO INTERNATIONAL HORSE SHOW WELCOME WEEK
(Owner at the Competition: JILL BURNELL) Start Date of Comp: 10/27/2009 State: CA, Zone: 10
Division: MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) Rating: N
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
41 Low Hunters 47 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
42 Low Hunters 41 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
43 Low Hunters 44 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
44 Low Hunters 36 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
45 Low Hunters Under Saddle 13 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
Division: 3-FOOT PRE-GREEN HUNTER Rating: C
Class # Class Description # Entries Placing Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Rider Name
46 Pre Green Hunters FP 10 8 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
47 Pre Green Hunters 10 7 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
48 Pre Green Hunters 10 6 0.00 0.00 3.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
49 Pre Green Hunters 10 6 0.00 0.00 3.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
50 Pre Green Hunters Under Saddle 10 DNP 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 HERMAN, MEREDITH
TOTALS: 0.00 0.00 6.00 0.00 0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REPORT TOTALS Nat Pnt Good Nat Pnt Bad ZRD Pnt Good ZRD Pnt Bad Hunter Money Jumper Money
MISC. HUNTER (No points earned) 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
3-FOOT PRE-GREEN HUNTER 0.00 0.00 31.00 0.00 67.50 0.00
PRE-GREEN HUNTER 0.00 0.00 100.00 0.00 330.00 0.00
Training Level Open, Test 3 & 4 7.00 0.00 7.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Print out on 1/16/2010 10:11:25 PM
* - Hunter Classic, ZRD - Zone/Region/District
** - USHJA Foundation Award Bad Point Reason Only
Please direct any questions or inquiries to U.S. Equestrian, Attention Sport Data Department, corrections@usef.org. While we make every effort to ensure the accuracy of the information displayed, U.S. Equestrian assumes no liability to anyone for errors or omissions. Any errors called to our attention which result in a verified correction

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:32 AM
Since you brought it up, he showed for some weeks at Thermal. I was at Thermal for the second week of his showing. As a horse of some age from Europe, what level did he show to there? And what division will he be going into with Peter - first year green?


USEF rules are pretty clear that imported horses may or may not be eligible for Green Hunter ( either 1st or 2nd year).
But it's pretty hard to enforce or dispute unless you can find the competition record abroad.

Here's the current rule:
HU103 Green Status - Hunter.
1. A Green Hunter is a horse of any age in its first or second year of showing in any classes in which the national specifications require horses to jump 3’6” or higher, regardless of whether or not the fences are actually set at 3'6" or higher at Regular Competitions or Eventing Competitions of the Federation or Equine Canada or any national or international competition.

There are quite a few proposals this year that may change the structure of Green and Regular Hunters.

Here is one proposal and it eliminates all reference to national or International competition.

"1. A First Year Green Hunter is a horse of any age which has not competed at a USEF licensed competition where the fence height is 3’6” or higher."

This does seem a little unfair to the US breeder as they can't legally get miles on their young stock and still have them come out as Pre Green or Green Hunters while the Euro horses will now legally be able to show abroad and then start over with a fresh slate here.
And this situation encourages getting a new identity for a domestic horse that wouldn't be eligible for Pre Green or Green.

But I guess it's very difficult to enforce. But modifying the rule now means no worries about someone finding your imports past show record.

Lucassb
Jan. 17, 2010, 11:15 AM
(snip)
Here's the current rule:
HU103 Green Status - Hunter.
1. A Green Hunter is a horse of any age in its first or second year of showing in any classes in which the national specifications require horses to jump 3’6” or higher, regardless of whether or not the fences are actually set at 3'6" or higher at Regular Competitions or Eventing Competitions of the Federation or Equine Canada or any national or international competition.
(snip)

This does seem a little unfair to the US breeder as they can't legally get miles on their young stock and still have them come out as Pre Green or Green Hunters while the Euro horses will now legally be able to show abroad and then start over with a fresh slate here.
(snip.)

Actually, the way the rule is currently written, horses can be shown as much as the owner likes at *unrecognized* competitions - this is true for US as well as European breeders.

Many, many, many people use that approach to put (less expensive) miles on their horses before presenting them as first (or second) year horses at a recognized show.

TSWJB
Jan. 17, 2010, 11:25 AM
This does seem a little unfair to the US breeder as they can't legally get miles on their young stock and still have them come out as Pre Green or Green Hunters while the Euro horses will now legally be able to show abroad and then start over with a fresh slate here.
And this situation encourages getting a new identity for a domestic horse that wouldn't be eligible for Pre Green or Green.

But I guess it's very difficult to enforce. But modifying the rule now means no worries about someone finding your imports past show record.
its very unfair! the american breeder has to compete with a more experienced european horse that is so called green! a horse with more miles most of the time looks better and will put in a better round and win.
european and canadian horses have passports. they could check the passport to see the show record if they really wanted to have an even playing field. i really think this is the great advantage of buying a european horse. you get mileage and start back green.
i did see in the latest USEF book that someone took a medium pony and changed the name and got it recarded as a small and was showing under a different name. they got caught and suspended for a month and 4k in fines i am pretty sure i remember. i wonder how they got caught?

grayfox
Jan. 17, 2010, 11:36 AM
USEF rules are pretty clear that imported horses may or may not be eligible for Green Hunter ( either 1st or 2nd year).
But it's pretty hard to enforce or dispute unless you can find the competition record abroad.

Here's the current rule:
HU103 Green Status - Hunter.
1. A Green Hunter is a horse of any age in its first or second year of showing in any classes in which the national specifications require horses to jump 3’6” or higher, regardless of whether or not the fences are actually set at 3'6" or higher at Regular Competitions or Eventing Competitions of the Federation or Equine Canada or any national or international competition.

There are quite a few proposals this year that may change the structure of Green and Regular Hunters.

Here is one proposal and it eliminates all reference to national or International competition.

"1. A First Year Green Hunter is a horse of any age which has not competed at a USEF licensed competition where the fence height is 3’6” or higher."

This does seem a little unfair to the US breeder as they can't legally get miles on their young stock and still have them come out as Pre Green or Green Hunters while the Euro horses will now legally be able to show abroad and then start over with a fresh slate here.
And this situation encourages getting a new identity for a domestic horse that wouldn't be eligible for Pre Green or Green.

But I guess it's very difficult to enforce. But modifying the rule now means no worries about someone finding your imports past show record.
It's not that hard to look up a horse's record in Germany. We did it on Redwine and he didn't show. He was a breeding stallion. There are stallions that had a jumper career before coming here and showing in the hunters. It's only hard if you don't know the registered name.

EllenAspen
Jan. 17, 2010, 11:37 AM
Very interesting thread...

LaurieP

I'm surprised no one has mentioned All the Gold. He HAS produced many hunter offspring that were successful. Since he is retired, I'm not sure what the availability will be, but we have an intact son in our barn, who, if he continues as he has started, will definitely be scopey enough for a Derby horse, and has a good mind.

All the Gold has been the "MAN" regarding producing NA hunters. We have two...one coming three and one coming two. The three year old is intact and we have showed him in hand...he has been started under saddle...we are very excited about him.


Grayfox

It's Redwine first being shown by John French and then one of his 4 years that is still in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSMVb...layer_embedded


He is adorable...thanks for showing that...nice to see what Redwine is producing...

Another stallion that has not been mentioned is Shine...that horse is a trooper...his young ones are getting to be show age...

lauriep
Jan. 17, 2010, 12:03 PM
I love Shine. He is exactly my type, and I will be interested to see how his kids turn out.

showjumpers66
Jan. 17, 2010, 04:42 PM
Competitions are very different in Europe, so it is not as unfair as you think. In fact, it is just the oppposite. For example, Apiro showed in approximately 10 shows in Germany, BUT it was only 1 or 2 classes at each show so it was only 16 classes total. Here, if a young horse does 10 shows as a hunter, they will have done 5 to 12 classes per show depending on how many divisions they are doing and if their are doing any extra classes such as a derby, classic, equitation, etc. That's 50 to 120 classes versus the 16 classes of the German horse. Huge difference in the number of miles. Plus, the German horse has not seen solid jumps, flower boxes, and needs to learn to go at the same pace, in a straight line without swapping leads, and from a gappier distance while "making it alone".

In Europe, the young horses (4 years old) are expected to step right up and be jumping 3'6", so they are very green at this height. If you don't have a sporthorse that can do that, then you really have nothing to build from. The difference is that the horses typically has a stronger foundation in the basics, but they "don't know how to make it alone". The horses rely heavily on the rider to actually ride them.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 17, 2010, 10:58 PM
"The difference is that the horses typically has a stronger foundation in the basics, but they "don't know how to make it alone". The horses rely heavily on the rider to actually ride them."

THAT could be a major problem here.

Wanderluster
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:07 AM
I ride a Popeye K colt bred off a Jupiter mare. He is a consummate hunter type albeit less flat kneed than ideal. I think he inherited the jump of his dam and the stride of his sire.
This one will make up as a genuine horse, he is interested in his job and is a people pleaser.
I've seen the foals from two Jupiter mares crossed to Paparazzo and so far they have the "look" and qualities to ascend to greatness.That friend also bred her mare twice to Schoenfeld and those horses are developing nicely as they mature. It is always a roll of the dice when breeding for the perfect hunter, performance first bloodlines come in as incidental, they are individuals aren't they?

HF
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:25 AM
In looking at consistency in breeding for hunters; Jones Hall should not be overlooked. Although TB and not the popular warmblood at the moment; his sire Joe's Lin not only produced him but many others including Sly Step. Jones Hall has had smaller #'s bred to him but more of them have made it to the show ring with success. (both Joe's Lin and Jones Hall have been top money earners for the IHF) They are the AA & A/O types that the American market want. So if you are looking for bloodlines that can and do produce year after year for the hunter market America does produce. There is also Fleetwood's Bolero who sire produce many top hunters and Bolero himself has offspring performing at the A show level.
Those of us with small #'s of horses to look at are happy to band together to make it easier for clients to come and look at many horses at one time.

YoungJumper
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:32 AM
Thank you Sakura Hills. You keep drinking that kool aid Laurie. You must be a trust fund baby and have never run a business because a business that runs at a loss are not in business very long. Lucky for the Euros that they found a market for their culls in the USA. First and foremost it should be on temperment and conformation ESPECIALLY for you amateurs. As long as there are Americans like you to snatch their culls, they will be turning a profit cause the rest will be on a speed boat to France. We don't have that luxury here cause our culls have to be cared for from foal to grave. What flavor is that kool aid???

Speaking of Kool-Aide, someone must have left the sugar out of yours. You may have some valid points, but you certainly aren't expressing them in a way that would lend itself to being heard.

Carol Ames
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:41 AM
Jupiter. A;lla czar, All the Gold;depends on the mare:yes:

Carol Ames
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:43 AM
Calimero, Cardinal

ktm2007
Jan. 18, 2010, 01:25 AM
Jupiter. A;lla czar,;depends on the mare:yes:

these two are my favorites. Jupiter I absolutely adore

Samotis
Jan. 18, 2010, 01:33 AM
A few people have mentioned it already, it is much less expensive to have a horse trained in Europe then it is here.

Not only do the Europeans breed a lot more horses, they have the "training centers" with tons of eager adequate riders to take on young horses.

I don't have a lot of money and couldn't afford to buy a horse after my junior hunter retired. I decided to breed my little hunter mare and now have a coming 2 year old that I do plan on keeping and showing in the hunters.

I live in AZ and it has been rough for me to make sure he is getting everything he needs. I can't afford to keep him in a show barn, but he can't be in a backyard because he needs to be handled properly. It is very hard to find a decent place that is affordable and be sure that your young horse is getting proper care!

I know many people that breed horses in Europe and keep them there to train until they are old enough and then bring them here. They do that because of the cost and the fact that they are getting great training and experience without getting overworked in a short period of time.

I won't be going over to Europe any time soon to buy a horse, but I can see why some people do.

I also think that the hunter breeding has become much more popular recently and I am sure we will see more and more hunters showing that were bred here. I look forward to it!

(I also look forward to showing my US homebred soon!);)

VirginiaBred
Jan. 18, 2010, 08:08 AM
I love Jones Hall.

Just The Best has proven get showing and are lovely. I have a nine month old that is an old soul. :)

No one has mentioned Westporte. I LOVE this guy!!!
http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm

Kaleigh007
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:43 AM
They may still be going to Europe and even possibly keeping them over there but with the way the U.S. dollar is going I don't think it will be beneficial financially to keep doing that much longer!

Lucassb
Jan. 18, 2010, 10:54 AM
As I said earlier, I LOVE Jones Hall. Would take one of his babies in a heartbeat. Lovely horse!!!

As to the costs in Europe - yes, it is very true that you can keep a baby there for much, much less. And there are definitely more affordable training centers that can put a GOOD foundation of proper flatwork on a horse for much less than a good trainer would cost here. It's just a totally different market.

The exchange rate may impact the prices buyers face but doesn't really do much to the producers, who are spending their native Euros.

Dee1964
Jan. 18, 2010, 11:37 AM
Just read this whole thread and both sides have legit points. That being said, I have to join in on a point that was made about the level of riders and trainers in the USA. Yes, there are legit pros out there that really know how to bring a horse along and are true horsemen/women but after being involved in almost all aspects of the horse business for a long time I have to agree that the level of riding in this country has taken a downward slide and that the consumate horsemen (think Jack Le Goff) is becoming a thing of the past. This alone makes it difficult for breeders here to bring along their young horses AND if they do sell a foal they have to hope it goes to someone knowledgeable so that it has a chance to be successful in the ring. Due to injuries, I no longer ride and I can attest first hand how difficult it is to find competent trainers/riders here.

Galileo1998
Jan. 18, 2010, 12:35 PM
There are breeders in this country with quality stallions breeding many more than 26 mares. That said, if you have a good stallion in Europe, let's take the Blue Hors now "retired" stallion Dr. Doolittle, well he bred 130 mares his first year. That was because he performed very well in testing. Then they retired him due to poor produce.


Holy hell, if you're going to make statements like that on a bulletin board make sure you have the RIGHT HORSE! :eek: It wasn't Dr. Doolittle that was retired at all, rather a totally different horse, by the name of Doolittle was.

hunteryperson
Jan. 18, 2010, 01:34 PM
That is just horrid on a public forum to bad mouth someone's stallion and not even be correct about the stallion. I would be livid if I owned Dr. Doolittle. Thanks for pointing that out Galileo1998.

fish
Jan. 18, 2010, 03:56 PM
Skimmed this thread and was surprised not to see As Always mentioned for his achievements as a Hunter/Conformation/ 4' horse-- and a sometimes amateur/junior ride, too? (e.g., like Popeye and Cunningham, USEF Grand Ch Conformation Hunter)

knowthatifly
Jan. 18, 2010, 05:07 PM
We are Jupiter fans as well, and we produce hunters AND jumpers out of our Jupiter mare. Our mare has produced two fillies from Quinar (Quidam de Revel/Aloube Z), but with gorgeous conformation and flat knee movement, added height from Quinar, and more jump AND more desire to jump than we have ever seen. The yearling is more a jumper type, but the weanling could go either way equally competitive. Keep in mind Quinar is a jumper type.

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 18, 2010, 05:36 PM
Would love to see photos of your Quinar/Jupiters!

3Dogs
Jan. 18, 2010, 05:43 PM
Holy hell, if you're going to make statements like that on a bulletin board make sure you have the RIGHT HORSE! :eek: It wasn't Dr. Doolittle that was retired at all, rather a totally different horse, by the name of Doolittle was.

Error made by many, of which I join as one of the "led astray" -Mea Culpa, mea culpa! I don't do dressage but was trying to make a point - alas, with the wrong name that was used G by the author of the original thread and then for 20 more posts. I fall on my proverbial sword. Doubt the dressage folks, however much you worry G, are reading this thread.
I meant that young stallions who have been through the best of "trials" with good bloodlines perhaps cannot produce. Don't know however, what Blue Hors saw. Point me to where we can tell how many mares bred by ANY of the horses offered up here is reported - reliably? And tracking their offspring, such as it is?
I am complaining about data.

On this one thread are thrown out names of stallions with hunter show records and coming of age offspring AS WELL as new stallions, with limited show records and new babies on the ground. So either you take a chance with a "new" or "newish" stallion - and god forbid we mention bloodlines since other than the USEF data base, there IS no good way to determine what lines mixed with what lines produce top level hunters (more than once or twice) - or a stallion that actually has shown and won at upper level hunters and do that mix. And some of the latter group have been around long enough to have progeny that HAVE fought the odds in this country and made it into the hunter ring with some longevity. It boils down to individual mare owner choices - sadly, with a dearth of good reliable information and many obstacles from "here to there".

toomanyponies
Jan. 18, 2010, 08:46 PM
Skimmed this thread and was surprised not to see As Always mentioned for his achievements as a Hunter/Conformation/ 4' horse-- and a sometimes amateur/junior ride, too? (e.g., like Popeye and Cunningham, USEF Grand Ch Conformation Hunter)


As Always is a GREAT horse. Is he available for breeding? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

europa
Jan. 19, 2010, 09:39 AM
Did anyone mention Westporte or Silvio?

I love Don Alfredo and Escudo II also for hunters.

ktm2007
Jan. 19, 2010, 10:24 AM
Would love to see photos of your Quinar/Jupiters!

Me too! Whats the other side of the mare?

Whitehedge Farm
Jan. 19, 2010, 11:04 AM
Cabalito did show successfully in the 3'6-4' Hunters- thenheaded the jumper ring (showed up to level 7) for a while and is now headed back into the hunter ring! :) (And is also now available again with cooled semen)

His babies are now old enough to be starting to show in the pre-greens and some 3'6. There are not a ton of them out there which is why they do sell easily. The market is not flooded with them like it is with some other "hot" stallions- The trainers and owners that have them in their barn always want more of them and snatch them up when they are available. - He is definitely not a stallion to pass over. They have been very easy to sell for me- if I happen to hang on to one till they are 3- then they are sold VERY quickly after being started undersaddle.

Those of us with Cabalito offspring have compiled a Facebook page for him which has TONS of offspring pictures all together in one place. Pretty exciting to see so many of them together as it is never easy to keep track of offspring with people not registering, registering with no breeding info, names changing, etc. No easy task to track them all.

Includes lots of new offspring show pics that have not been put up anywhere else yet. I would highly recommend checking it out :)

http://www.facebook.com/help/#/group.php?gid=361635360017&ref=ts

VirginiaBred
Jan. 19, 2010, 11:24 AM
Did anyone mention Westporte


I did back on post 119. He's a proven stallion that has lovely children.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jan. 19, 2010, 11:46 AM
How old are the Escapade babies now?

hunteryperson
Jan. 19, 2010, 11:59 AM
Did anyone mention Westporte or Silvio?

I love Don Alfredo and Escudo II also for hunters.

I will be very interested to see how the Westporte's jump. I think it's an unknown. I love Don Alfredo. There are a few Escudo II's listed as Small Junior's which isn't surprising, he's pretty small. I think the Escudo I's are nicer. Are the Silvio's in the ring yet? They are pretty movers.

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 19, 2010, 12:15 PM
How old are the Escapade babies now?

I can't quote on the foals, or him as a 'hunter sire', but I saw Escapade in OK at the stallion test, and really thought he looked like a fun horse (for an amateur like me) to ride.

Here are some photos I took:
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/311
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/312
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/313
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/314
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/316
http://6lbphoto.shutterfly.com/320

MsRidiculous
Jan. 19, 2010, 12:50 PM
I will be very interested to see how the Westporte's jump. I think it's an unknown.

I have only freejumped mine a couple times but so far it looks like she jumps at least decently cute. I can't get her to do much more than trot/very slow pathetic lope over the little jump, she is kind of a lazy turd. ;) I will know more by fall, she is just coming 3 this year. I have seen a pic of one of Westporte's showing in the BG and it looked nice.

I've seen a few Cabalito's in person and like them a lot.

I LOVE As Always but I noticed a few weeks ago that according to USEF he's no longer owned by Becky Gochman, now his owner is Elizabeth Knight Morgan. Would love to know the scoop on where he went and what the plans are for him (hoping he's still intact).

fish
Jan. 19, 2010, 12:55 PM
As Always is a GREAT horse. Is he available for breeding? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I know he has some babies on the ground, although he's not been advertised much and may not have gone through a WB approvals process. Seems to me the best way to find out about availability in such situations is to track down the owner and ask (that's how I got my mare to Cunningham back in 2002).

Also wanted to say how glad I am to see this topic show up in this forum, thinking that it could only benefit our sport and our breeding for it to start making more connections between breeding and h/j performance -- not to mention breeders and riders.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 19, 2010, 12:58 PM
Also wanted to say how glad I am to see this topic show up in this forum, thinking that it could only benefit our sport and our breeding for it to start making more connections between breeding and h/j performance -- not to mention breeders and riders.

Our thoughts entirely! Cross-fertilization can only help all.

Amigo
Jan. 19, 2010, 07:06 PM
Redwine for sure, and I also love Ragtime. Such a cool horse with great form over fences! :yes:

Also love Apiro Nikko Ritter has been showing him at WEF I think.

Equino
Jan. 19, 2010, 07:29 PM
I do adore Apiro, I hope someday I have a suitable mare for him!

If I were to breed my current mare to an up and coming stud, I think I would pick Chaleon. He has a lovely neck/head and a beautiful canter not to mention great jump. I've only seen video clips of some of his offspring, never in person, and I've been very impressed. I'd love to hear what those in the know think of him.

http://www.crookedwillowfarms.com/horseDetail.do?keyName=Chaleon

Kaleigh007
Jan. 19, 2010, 10:39 PM
I also like the "Richard" horse but I can't for the life of me remember his show name.

Wanderluster
Jan. 20, 2010, 12:19 AM
Also wanted to say how glad I am to see this topic show up in this forum, thinking that it could only benefit our sport and our breeding for it to start making more connections between breeding and h/j performance -- not to mention breeders and riders.

Agreed, it is cool to see the second and now third generation foals bred for the hunter ring. As can be predicted there are lesser individuals of all sires.

Terry Brown did not let Waterway Drive stand to outside mares and bred some good TB hunters including one that won the IHF.

One of the nicest foals I saw this year was from a mare of great blood, but a beyotch from hell. They tried to sell her in foal with no takers. Her colt is both sweet and personable and a great hunter prospect. :D

alliekat
Jan. 20, 2010, 09:15 AM
I also like the "Richard" horse but I can't for the life of me remember his show name.

http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/bwp_Richard.html
http://theequineathlete.net/

AGRHJRider
Jan. 20, 2010, 07:31 PM
Before i start on self promotion I have to say that my absolute favorite hunter producing stallion other than my own right now is Redwine! Absolutely stunning.
I think American breeders are doing great things. This is my second year of being involved in the "breeding" side of things.
I think our market is changing, i have noticed our breeding operation become very selective on mares that we are breeding.
It has always been a dream of mine to produce offspring comparable if not better to European Standards. The europeans have been great about record keeping and selective breeding which gives them an advantage. No big deal, if my clients wanted to hop on a jet and fly to Holland to shop for horses i'd have my bags packed and ready to go.
Don't overlook what we have in our backyard though. We have very nice stallions in the United States.
And unlike some other people in this forum I am not concerned specifically with the hunter performance record of a stallion, rather the quality of his offspring.
I also would think that conformation should be taken into consideration as well as movement.
I work at Broad Hill Run Farm, we stand the Trak. Stallion Hennessey. And although his USEF record does not show numerous wins in the hunter divisions. He is a consistent producer of top quality conformation and hunter offspring.
I am one of the aforementioned "few trainers" that take horses from 2 year old up the ranks through the hunters. I wouldn't have it any other way. When you buy a horse from me, its the product, i guarantee it will be a great mover, jump well and be capable of taking an amateur through the ranks. As a trainer I like this type becuase its trustworthy.
The HDIF is an excellent program and I think we should all applaud Sterling Berry for her directorship of this program.

Henessey was the first stallion to back nominate and we hope to be competitive this year in the HDIF shows.

Overall not "hot" on the show circuit but Hennessey is very much worth looking in to for producing a top notch hunter. Hennessey has sired some of the nations top hunters. He has sired "Zarr", "Zealous", "Kentucky Limo", "Plain as Bay" and "Decorum" just to name a few. "Zarr" stands at Stoneledge Stables in Front Royal, VA and was the International leading sire of 2005 & 2006. "Zealous", was the winner of the 2004 International Hunter Futurity 4 year olds and is beginning his breeding career as well.

Good luck to everyone breeding this year!

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 20, 2010, 09:04 PM
I really loved the Hennessey gelding I had, o/o a good producing TB mare. He was sweet, loving, kick along quiet , usually a top hack contender and a perfect ammy type horse. He finished pretty big around 17hh, chestnut w/ very little chrome, but just a big puppy dog. His registered name was Decorum, but he's now shown as 'Finders Keepers' and did the Pregreens and AA's last season.

3Dogs
Jan. 20, 2010, 09:24 PM
Why? he has a limited show record and one foal crop on the ground. Maybe there are more foals from is stand in Europe, but I am really curious.
Why would you say he is the best producing stallion out there? What is it in any data base that leads you to such conlcusions? He is very new to the "hunter" breeding world as he was a dressage stallion in Europe. While he may produce top level hunters, time will tell, and there is no data YET , and I say YET, to say he will. He is dressage bred and thus, it may depend on the mare base.

There are US/NA based stallions with super show records AND with showing offspring. I don't get it.




Before i start on self promotion I have to say that my absolute favorite hunter producing stallion other than my own right now is Redwine! Absolutely stunning.
I think American breeders are doing great things. This is my second year of being involved in the "breeding" side of things.
I think our market is changing, i have noticed our breeding operation become very selective on mares that we are breeding.
It has always been a dream of mine to produce offspring comparable if not better to European Standards. The europeans have been great about record keeping and selective breeding which gives them an advantage. No big deal, if my clients wanted to hop on a jet and fly to Holland to shop for horses i'd have my bags packed and ready to go.
Don't overlook what we have in our backyard though. We have very nice stallions in the United States.
And unlike some other people in this forum I am not concerned specifically with the hunter performance record of a stallion, rather the quality of his offspring.
I also would think that conformation should be taken into consideration as well as movement.
I work at Broad Hill Run Farm, we stand the Trak. Stallion Hennessey. And although his USEF record does not show numerous wins in the hunter divisions. He is a consistent producer of top quality conformation and hunter offspring.
I am one of the aforementioned "few trainers" that take horses from 2 year old up the ranks through the hunters. I wouldn't have it any other way. When you buy a horse from me, its the product, i guarantee it will be a great mover, jump well and be capable of taking an amateur through the ranks. As a trainer I like this type becuase its trustworthy.
The HDIF is an excellent program and I think we should all applaud Sterling Berry for her directorship of this program.

Henessey was the first stallion to back nominate and we hope to be competitive this year in the HDIF shows.

Overall not "hot" on the show circuit but Hennessey is very much worth looking in to for producing a top notch hunter. Hennessey has sired some of the nations top hunters. He has sired "Zarr", "Zealous", "Kentucky Limo", "Plain as Bay" and "Decorum" just to name a few. "Zarr" stands at Stoneledge Stables in Front Royal, VA and was the International leading sire of 2005 & 2006. "Zealous", was the winner of the 2004 International Hunter Futurity 4 year olds and is beginning his breeding career as well.

Good luck to everyone breeding this year!

GAF
Jan. 20, 2010, 09:54 PM
I think it's unfair to dismiss Redwine when his career is only getting started. I truly believe, as do many, that he will prove himself through not only his offspring, but his own career. He just needs more time. He's only been here a little over 2 years, has only shown 1 season & has 2 crops on the ground. There is a huge buzz at the show about him right now & there is every good reason for that. Based on your past PMs & posts, it is clear, 3Dogs, that you don't like him. That's ok, not all stallions are for everyone. It's also clear that this is more than just not liking the stallion, but some sort of personal vendetta or agenda. Give it a rest. Your word is not gospel.



Cunningham
Apiro
Sir Caletto
St Nick
Carbadino


From your list, most of these stallions don't have offspring old enough to be in the ring. Except Sir Caletto. His oldest should be right around 6. Where are they? A few have had success in the IHF, but nothing noteable in the rated divisions. I don't see how you can tout him when they aren't out doing anything. Based on the ones I've met & worked with, I am in no way surprised.

From what I saw of Apiro last week & today, he's not anything to get excited about either. He's jumping poorly & I don't think the excuse that he's been out of work is good enough. He should have been ready to show. He's more seasoned than some of the horses that are pinning above him. I also agree with what was said about his conformation earlier on in this thread. The front end also isn't as correct as it should be. If you told me he was an Irish Draught Horse, I'd believe you. He's heavy & I'd never put him to anything other than a TB mare.

I do think that Cabardino, Cunningham & St Nick offspring are ones to watch for. I think they will make their mark as well.

hunteryperson
Jan. 20, 2010, 11:05 PM
I think it's unfair to dismiss Redwine when his career is only getting started. I truly believe, as do many, that he will prove himself through not only his offspring, but his own career. He just needs more time. He's only been here a little over 2 years, has only shown 1 season & has 2 crops on the ground. There is a huge buzz at the show about him right now & there is every good reason for that. Based on your past PMs & posts, it is clear, 3Dogs, that you don't like him. That's ok, not all stallions are for everyone. It's also clear that this is more than just not liking the stallion, but some sort of personal vendetta or agenda. Give it a rest. Your word is not gospel.



From your list, most of these stallions don't have offspring old enough to be in the ring. Except Sir Caletto. His oldest should be right around 6. Where are they? A few have had success in the IHF, but nothing noteable in the rated divisions. I don't see how you can tout him when they aren't out doing anything. Based on the ones I've met & worked with, I am in no way surprised.

From what I saw of Apiro last week & today, he's not anything to get excited about either. He's jumping poorly & I don't think the excuse that he's been out of work is good enough. He should have been ready to show. He's more seasoned than some of the horses that are pinning above him. I also agree with what was said about his conformation earlier on in this thread. The front end also isn't as correct as it should be. If you told me he was an Irish Draught Horse, I'd believe you. He's heavy & I'd never put him to anything other than a TB mare.

I do think that Cabardino, Cunningham & St Nick offspring are ones to watch for. I think they will make their mark as well.

Good post GAF, I love Redwine as well as Cunningham, Carbardino and St Nick. I also am a Hennessey fan, he's produced some wonderful hunters.

showjumpers66
Jan. 21, 2010, 01:42 AM
You are certainly welcome to your opinion and we don't expect everyone to like Apiro, but this is very simple to verify as being untrue. Based on this alone, readers please take what you read here with a grain of salt. I pride myself on my honesty, so if anyone has questions I would be happy to answer them. Thanks!


He's more seasoned than some of the horses that are pinning above him.

In regards to the green-ness, I pulled USEF records for the horses in his class. I think it speaks clearly for itself.

Apiro - 12 shows

Rock Star - 69 shows
Avalon - 56 shows
Summer Place - 1 show? (I found results for additional shows that have maybe not been posted)
Gianni - 84 shows
Caligo - 34 shows
Corvino - 25 shows
Landius - 48 shows
Mashallah - 37 shows

BirdM
Jan. 21, 2010, 07:15 AM
I might add that I think Apiro just won a class out of 29, if I am reading the results correctly...can't be jumping all that badly...

MsRidiculous
Jan. 21, 2010, 09:45 AM
Does St Nick stand to the public? I don't know that I've seen any offspring besides Sainted... who are the others?

Looks like Pasolongo is entered in the 3'3" A/O's today. Lots of stallions showing, this is fun to follow. :)

Kaleigh007
Jan. 21, 2010, 10:49 AM
I have heard from more then one person the same things about Apiro but like his owner says he's not for everyone. I guess if you are going to breed a mare and it is possible to go see the stallion show, then by all means you should do so.

LiveToFly
Jan. 21, 2010, 11:39 AM
I never would've expected Alla Czars name being mentioned multiple times in this thread.
My old barn is right next to where he used to live. Didnt realize he was that famous.

DMK
Jan. 21, 2010, 11:51 AM
Didnt realize he was that famous.

LOL he was the sire of Oszcar, first hunter to score a 100 (or the first hunter that anyone remembers scoring a 100). That'll give you a bump out of the gate in being remembered. ;)

alliekat
Jan. 21, 2010, 12:49 PM
LOL he was the sire of Oszcar, first hunter to score a 100 (or the first hunter that anyone remembers scoring a 100). That'll give you a bump out of the gate in being remembered. ;)

Not to mention:
Alla'Czar's offspring have given him many awards including USEF's Hunter Breeding stallion of the year for 5 consecutive years, 2002-2006.

sixpoundfarm
Jan. 21, 2010, 01:43 PM
I also agree with what was said about his conformation earlier on in this thread. The front end also isn't as correct as it should be. If you told me he was an Irish Draught Horse, I'd believe you. He's heavy & I'd never put him to anything other than a TB mare.

I do think that Cabardino, Cunningham & St Nick offspring are ones to watch for. I think they will make their mark as well.

I think Apiro is very typical of his breeding in type, size and ability, so not much of a surprise there. :confused:
Argentinus is a pretty sought after name in the pedigree, because of his prepotency to sire top performance horses.
http://www.horse-gate.com/argentinus/index_content_en.htm

I have not seen the other stallions you mention personally, and unlike folks on here that like to spread things they've heard, I'll refrain.

No horse is perfection on 4 legs, its up to the people using those horses in their breeding programs to educate themselves of any faults or issues with mare or stallion, and make educated decisions on crossing them at that point. I have worked with Silver Creek on several occasions, and have found them to be very upfront and honest about their horses and breeding suggestions/recommendations. I think its great they are getting their boys out there in the competition arenas, letting them prove their abilities rather then deciding that passing a stallion test is enough to head to the breeding shed for the rest of their days. Winning is nice, but its not everything.

LiveToFly
Jan. 21, 2010, 01:44 PM
LOL he was the sire of Oszcar, first hunter to score a 100 (or the first hunter that anyone remembers scoring a 100). That'll give you a bump out of the gate in being remembered. ;)

Yup I saw that via her website LOL.
Excuse my ignorance...:lol: Its just cause he's always been so local to me, weird to beleive a horse who was just next door not long ago was that well known and accomplished, especially in AZ's somewhat small community.
I dont mean to offend Alla Czar at all BTW, It was just a cool coincidence.

CBoylen
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:05 PM
Does St Nick stand to the public? I don't know that I've seen any offspring besides Sainted... who are the others?

There's one called Madeline that showed a little in the pregreens last year.
I haven't seen Sainted, although I see on USEF that he's out of Showboat, which is exciting. He should have an opportunity to do big things. Actually, I see there appear to be two Sainteds by St. Nick. The one that was at Warioto isn't the one out of Showboat.
I have seen a couple others, but I don't know where they ended up. I have to say, the ones I've seen have all been HUGE.
I'd like to see some more by him though, in my opinion he was a much better horse, at least in the show ring, than Cabardino or Cunningham, neither of which are very appealing to me as show horses, although who knows what will happen with them as sires.

MsRidiculous
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:12 PM
This is the Sainted from Warioto http://www.wariotofarminc.com/sainted.html

grayfox
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:37 PM
There's one called Madeline that showed a little in the pregreens last year.
I haven't seen Sainted, although I see on USEF that he's out of Showboat, which is exciting. He should have an opportunity to do big things. Actually, I see there appear to be two Sainteds by St. Nick. The one that was at Warioto isn't the one out of Showboat.
I have seen a couple others, but I don't know where they ended up. I have to say, the ones I've seen have all been HUGE.
I'd like to see some more by him though, in my opinion he was a much better horse, at least in the show ring, than Cabardino or Cunningham, neither of which are very appealing to me as show horses, although who knows what will happen with them as sires.
Is Showboat still around? Wouldn't she be pretty old? I always wonder about famous mares and who has them. I didn't think St.Nick stood much to the public he was always showing but he seems like a wonderful stallion. I think Robin Stewart had one last year that should be exciting.

CBoylen
Jan. 21, 2010, 02:45 PM
USEF says the Lindners still have her and she is 18 this year. She stopped showing young. I wasn't aware they'd bred her, so I was interested to stumble across that one. I hope to get to see it in person at some point.

arizonard
Jan. 21, 2010, 04:53 PM
There is a St. Nick mare that shows in the Adults in Ontario. She qualified for the Royal this year and I think she is only about 6. On the smaller side, but seemed attractive and jumped well.

joyful
Jan. 21, 2010, 08:26 PM
Speaking as a "backyard" breeder, (breeding for myself, not for sale) I first searched for a hunter stallion that would produce a safe, athletic hunter that had a stay at home attitude (as opposed to living with a professional). My mare was a great mover and jumper with tons of scope and size... but a difficult attitude. Despite being offered a free breeding to All the Gold, I chose to pay for a breeding to Just the Best. While I loved watching the Gold babies show, they were all in big deal trainers barns and the ones I knew personally were not amateur friendly.

I loved Just the Best, and saw that they were owned and shown by amateurs. I called professionals who started lots of horses, and they all raved about Just the Best babies.

Consequently, I bred one Just the Best colt, bought a Just the best 6 yr old, and my mare is in foal again to Just the Best. The are lovely horses... easy to train... nice athletes... delightful to live with. If I wanted to sell any of them, I don't think it would be too difficult.

I think the problem with Just the Best, is that the owners like them too much to end up selling them. Because they are so easy to train they don't often end up in the hands of the professioanls who can get the most out of them.

As a breeding stallion, he has a high conception rate (my mare caught every time on the first try). Tish is easy to work with, and believes in her horses. She helped me find the 6 yr old - I NEVER would have found him without her!

Both of my horses are a nice size, the 6 yr old is 15.3 and the 3yr old out of my mare is 16.2. The are both great looking horses, and sweet to handle (non-horsey husband has handled the 3 yr old since day 1!).

My second choice stallion was A Fine Romance. When you don't breed a lot of horses, you have to go with tried and true stallions. I'm happy to see up and comers like Apiro and Redwine, but let's give them a chance to prove themselves first. Also, breeding with frozen semen is VERY difficult and expersive... my vet helped narrow down the search when she explained that whole process!

I'm having a lot of fun doing this, but it must be near impossible to be profitable as a business unless you own the stallion and have mares that cross well!

TWF
Jan. 23, 2010, 10:23 AM
If you had noticed, I specifically mentioned Gray Fox Farm as having a large breeding program and buying really GOOD broodmares. I meant in addition to her operation, what other HUNTER breeders do so on a large scale?


CORRECTION:
Grande Desire by Grande Saber has never been sold or leased..



Gray Fox may gave been posting her "mare line up" with an error..I think she meant to post her new mare Grande Divina...by Grande Saber o/o Al's Valentine..the full sibling to Grand Affair and Grande Desire.
In 2009 I bred full sisters to Grand Affair - Grande Divina and Grande Desire - to GF stallions ALL three Grande Saber mares are in foal to GF stallions.
Divina was sold to GF this past fall. I hope the infusion of these full sibling mares will produce good foals for the all of our programs.
Grande Desire's first filly, Coture d' Jour will be showing in 2010.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 23, 2010, 12:00 PM
"I'd like to see some more by him though, in my opinion he was a much better horse, at least in the show ring, than Cabardino or Cunningham, neither of which are very appealing to me as show horses, although who knows what will happen with them as sires." What do you not find appealing in Cunningham????

CBoylen
Jan. 23, 2010, 12:15 PM
I'm not willing to go into a critique of someone else's horse publically, so I'm just going to leave it at he doesn't appeal to me as a hunter. That may be because of the particular shows that I've seen him at, or not, but that is the opinion with which I walked away. He may turn out to appeal to me as a sire later; it all remains to be seen.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
I bred and own a beautiful Popeye K filly and plan on breeding her in time. And I am breeding her mom to Apiro this year.

Having said that. I imported 2 horses from Germany and Belgium in 2007 and paid less than $50K each and love them both, if I were to purchase another horse it would be imported, I like the way the Germans bring them up, in herds and I like the way they start them.

I breed because I love it, and I'll start my young ones myself. But I'm not as interested in buying started horses in this country as I am in Europe.

Don't forget the Europeans have many more years on us in sport horse breeding.
Also we have the same type of farms here they just are Thoroughbred, Quarter horse and Arabians farm.

fish
Jan. 23, 2010, 01:30 PM
I'm not willing to go into a critique of someone else's horse publically, so I'm just going to leave it at he doesn't appeal to me as a hunter. That may be because of the particular shows that I've seen him at, or not, but that is the opinion with which I walked away. He may turn out to appeal to me as a sire later; it all remains to be seen.


Actually, if you do a search on Cunningham going back over the last few years, I think you will find ample discussions of him, both pro and con, which include CB's observations as well as mine and several others'.

Personally, I have enormous respect for this stallion, to whom I've bred 3 times (and would again if I had a younger mare and were younger (and richer) myself!!) Not only does he manage successful show and breeding careers simultaneously, offering fresh (or frozen) semen even while showing, but (like Just the Best), he does so while living not with his professional show rider/trainer, but, at his owner's home, where he is ridden/schooled handled not only by his owner (who shows him in the amateur divisions), but her family, friends and visitors, including children.

wrightwoodfarms
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:16 PM
I have been fortunate to be able to see Cunningham in person at a few shows, and he is absolutely beautiful, and very mannerly, but I don't know that living at home with his "amateur" owner, Mary, is the same as most of us other amateur's. ;) Mary is a very savy horse woman who really knows her stuff.

Many of the sires that keep coming up in these discussions are the same, over and over. No one stallion is perfect for every mare, and many of them are unproven as performance horses and/or sires as of yet so it seems pretty much a guessing game at this point.

I have two mares. I bred one (a 16-2 Thoroughbred very typy mare) to Popeye K several years ago and got a stunning filly. My other mare (also a Thoroughbred but much more compact and round) is in foal to Redwine due in a couple of months. I did not consider Popeye K for her since I have seen Popeye K youngsters that are coarse and heavy, and this mare is very different in body type than my other mare. The stallions I am most interested in for her are very different than those I would look at for the first mare. I'll throw out some previously unmentioned names that I like for one or the other of my mares for the hunter ring -- Landkoenig, Federalist, Nob Hill, Rosenthal. Would love to see some hunters by some of them out of the right mare!

Stallion owners are somewhat at the mercy of the mare owners to breed the right mares to their stallions to get great babies on the ground. And my hat is totally off to those stallion owners that put their boys out there in the show ring. Very few horses have stellar outings every time they put a foot in the ring, and just like we need to see more youngsters out of these stallions before we anoint any of them the next greatest thing, let's give the ones that ARE out there showing some time to settle in and show what they've got to offer.

Foxtrot's
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:24 PM
SHOWBOAT: which one is she? What is her pedigree? Thanks.

CBoylen
Jan. 23, 2010, 02:58 PM
SHOWBOAT: which one is she? What is her pedigree? Thanks.

She was a fantastic mare that Havens showed for the Lindners in the late 90's. Usef search says WB cross, Final Pool x Silver Lining.

lauriep
Jan. 23, 2010, 05:21 PM
I bred and own a beautiful Popeye K filly and plan on breeding her in time. And I am breeding her mom to Apiro this year.

Having said that. I imported 2 horses from Germany and Belgium in 2007 and paid less than $50K each and love them both, if I were to purchase another horse it would be imported, I like the way the Germans bring them up, in herds and I like the way they start them.

I breed because I love it, and I'll start my young ones myself. But I'm not as interested in buying started horses in this country as I am in Europe.

Don't forget the Europeans have many more years on us in sport horse breeding.
Also we have the same type of farms here they just are Thoroughbred, Quarter horse and Arabians farm.

Not for hunters, they don't. They breed for jumpers and dressage, period. The hunter types are the undesireables, not what they breed for. We own the American Hunter, and horses imported from Europe have to be "Americanized" before they are ready to show.

So glad that you want to support this country's lovely horses.:( I'll be sure to point out when our US bred youngsters kick your import's ass in a couple of years.

lauriep
Jan. 23, 2010, 05:25 PM
I have been fortunate to be able to see Cunningham in person at a few shows, and he is absolutely beautiful, and very mannerly, but I don't know that living at home with his "amateur" owner, Mary, is the same as most of us other amateur's. ;) Mary is a very savy horse woman who really knows her stuff.

Many of the sires that keep coming up in these discussions are the same, over and over. No one stallion is perfect for every mare, and many of them are unproven as performance horses and/or sires as of yet so it seems pretty much a guessing game at this point.

I have two mares. I bred one (a 16-2 Thoroughbred very typy mare) to Popeye K several years ago and got a stunning filly. My other mare (also a Thoroughbred but much more compact and round) is in foal to Redwine due in a couple of months. I did not consider Popeye K for her since I have seen Popeye K youngsters that are coarse and heavy, and this mare is very different in body type than my other mare. The stallions I am most interested in for her are very different than those I would look at for the first mare. I'll throw out some previously unmentioned names that I like for one or the other of my mares for the hunter ring -- Landkoenig, Federalist, Nob Hill, Rosenthal. Would love to see some hunters by some of them out of the right mare!

Stallion owners are somewhat at the mercy of the mare owners to breed the right mares to their stallions to get great babies on the ground. And my hat is totally off to those stallion owners that put their boys out there in the show ring. Very few horses have stellar outings every time they put a foot in the ring, and just like we need to see more youngsters out of these stallions before we anoint any of them the next greatest thing, let's give the ones that ARE out there showing some time to settle in and show what they've got to offer.

We have a 3 y.o. Nob Hill colt in our barn who has won consistently on the line, has been started. Watch for him in the next couple of years!

imagdrider
Jan. 23, 2010, 06:54 PM
Cunningham is definately the man!

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 23, 2010, 08:10 PM
Not for hunters, they don't. They breed for jumpers and dressage, period. The hunter types are the undesireables, not what they breed for. We own the American Hunter, and horses imported from Europe have to be "Americanized" before they are ready to show.

So glad that you want to support this country's lovely horses.:( I'll be sure to point out when our US bred youngsters kick your import's ass in a couple of years.

What ever Lauriep. You've kicked my American bred filly already, so gear up to kick my imports too, have at it sweetie.

Let's not forget that Popeye and Apiro were imports as well.

By the way, I know you are no where near a trust fund baby, you work very hard for what you have.:winkgrin:

I said sporthorse, which includes jumpers and dressage. My horses didn't have to be Americanized, whatever that is, as they were started beautifully. Maybe a picture will show better, here is Fairfax and me.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2086232940100093741JHvYjT And here with A Propos and me http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2602392770100093741kDqZFh

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 23, 2010, 08:22 PM
Nevada had the unfortunate luck to have me as an owner, so his Hunter showing was extremely casual. He is however, beginning to develop a name as a sire of Hunters. His babies are usually super junior & ammy friendly though, so they may not ever get to the 4' division.

One of his babies was the 2008 VHSA Associate Working Hunter (3') Year End High Point Champion (Res in 2009). At the VHSA Associates Championship show, a Nevada baby was 1st (5 year old) and 2nd (7 year old), in a class of 34. The winner also won the Stakes class at that show. He has now been sold to a lady that has been Champion A/O at the Washington International, so we will see where his career takes him. She needed to put a kid on him last minuite at his first show after purchasing him, and said he was SO good. He may just be needed to pack kids at 3'.

Others have been purchased to event, as again, they are Junior friendly, but even eventing, they are still showing their jump form.

The last 2 photos are Junior riders. #4 is being shown just a few days past her 4th birthday at 3'3".

His babies are also winning in Hunter Breeding, and Sidesaddle too.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:44 AM
Many of the sires that keep coming up in these discussions are the same, over and over. No one stallion is perfect for every mare, and many of them are unproven as performance horses and/or sires as of yet so it seems pretty much a guessing game at this point.

[Edited]...The stallions I am most interested in for her are very different than those I would look at for the first mare. I'll throw out some previously unmentioned names that I like for one or the other of my mares for the hunter ring -- Landkoenig, Federalist, Nob Hill, Rosenthal. Would love to see some hunters by some of them out of the right mare!


I hear you, but I think the reason the same studs come up, is the OP asked for the "hot" stallions. I, personally, for my own foal, bred my mare to Landfriese II and have a sincere hope that the baby will be suitable to ride in the hunter divisions (or even possibly the hunter derby division). If the jump isn't right for the hunters, then I think I have a pretty legitimate hope for a good jumper and also a horse I can play around at lower level dressage shows on.

However, I don't know/think that Landfriese II is considered a "hot" hunter stallion (although he did sire Quality Time/2006 USEF champ), so I didn't mention him. He is newer to the US, so the foal crops aren't there. I imagine that is the case for a lot of people not posting, since the quesiton was who is hot--which I think has been answered.

Kaleigh007
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:55 AM
Cunningham is definately the man!

Agreed. Have no clue what someone could dislike about him. All stallions don't cross well with all mares. I have seen some pretty horrid Popeye K's (look like draft crosses) but then also have seen some pretty nice ones.

Silk
Jan. 24, 2010, 02:03 PM
By the way, I know you are no where near a trust fund baby, you work very hard for what you have.:winkgrin:

nice...what the hell is that supposed to mean?



http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2086232940100093741JHvYjT [/url]
If you actually let go of that poor horse's face, he might jump cute.

hunteryperson
Jan. 24, 2010, 02:13 PM
What ever Lauriep. You've kicked my American bred filly already, so gear up to kick my imports too, have at it sweetie.

Let's not forget that Popeye and Apiro were imports as well.

By the way, I know you are no where near a trust fund baby, you work very hard for what you have.:winkgrin:

I said sporthorse, which includes jumpers and dressage. My horses didn't have to be Americanized, whatever that is, as they were started beautifully. Maybe a picture will show better, here is Fairfax and me.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2086232940100093741JHvYjT And here with A Propos and me http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2602392770100093741kDqZFh
Popeye K was not an import. He was born in Canada. I hardly think Apiro is in the same class as Popeye K.

Treasmare2
Jan. 24, 2010, 03:05 PM
I believe that Popeye was concieved in Europe and came across the pond in a cozy mare container. He was "birthed" in Ontario, Canada. Was sold when he was five (I think) and became an American boy.

Kinsella
Jan. 24, 2010, 04:09 PM
If you actually let go of that poor horse's face, he might jump cute.

OK, that was uncalled for and extremely rude. While I don't think a pelham = great training from Europe, I would never presume to critique a RIDER that did not ask for it.

Lauriep knows what the trust fund comment was about (as do I since I read the thread it was on) and if she felt the need to respond here I am sure she would have.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 04:10 PM
Popeye K was not an import. He was born in Canada. I hardly think Apiro is in the same class as Popeye K.

I couldn't remember if he was born in Canada or Europe but either way he is an import from another country.
Why don't you think Apiro is in the same class? His breeding seems to be comparable to Popeye, maybe not his horse show record, but his approval and his score are comparbble don't you think?

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 04:20 PM
OK, that was uncalled for and extremely rude. While I don't think a pelham = great training from Europe, I would never presume to critique a RIDER that did not ask for it.


Lauriep knows what the trust fund comment was about (as do I since I read the thread it was on) and if she felt the need to respond here I am sure she would have.

Thx Kinsella!

Actually he was started beautifully and went through a stage where he was bolting after the jump, so we tried the Pelham to give me alittle leverage if that happened. It was more for me than him, I really am not holding his head, just not giving lots of loop in the rein over the jump so I can maintain my contact with his mouth for the landing side.

Here's another picture where there is lots of loop in the rein, that should make you happier ;) http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2846022690100093741jqgcTj

As far as the trust fund thing, I just know she works very hard and in not trust fund baby and is well respected in barn management.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 04:44 PM
FWIW I texted Nikko and asked him what he thought of Apiro and he texted me back saying very easy and laid back with ton of scope, kinda sounds like Popeye K.:)

showjumpers66
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:10 PM
:lol: Thanks for that, Summitt Springs, but it is pretty obvious that there are alters posting who have a personal agenda.

Zlotych
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:16 PM
Popeye K was not an import. He was born in Canada. I hardly think Apiro is in the same class as Popeye K.

And your credentials to make such an observation are where and what? You certainly seem to have a bone to pick with certain stallions, yet rave on about others. Whats up with that???

I cant believe all the "experts" that appear on these boards and just post away hoping to trash someone's horse or reputation. How very sad that people dont have better things to do.

Sakura Hill Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:23 PM
We would like to thank all of those who have truly furthered our knowledge of the hunter sires out there. Some names are new to us, many are familiar... Our thanks to all who have made constructive contributions. And sincere good wishes to those who make the effort to get their stallions out at the major circuits competing. It is no easy feat from many standpoints!

enjoytheride
Jan. 24, 2010, 05:43 PM
Canada is still a whole nother country right? That would make anything that came from there an "import."

I also got a kick out of texting someone to ask them about their horse.

GAF
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:16 PM
FWIW I texted Nikko and asked him what he thought of Apiro and he texted me back saying very easy and laid back with ton of scope, kinda sounds like Popeye K.:)

Understandable that the trainer would only say good things to keep his clients happy.

Popeye K is an import given that he was born in Canada.

CBoylen
Jan. 24, 2010, 06:43 PM
Agreed. Have no clue what someone could dislike about him. All stallions don't cross well with all mares. I have seen some pretty horrid Popeye K's (look like draft crosses) but then also have seen some pretty nice ones.
Given past encounters, I would be more surprised if we agreed on this one!
And a number of those Popeye K's from Canada actually are draft crosses. You have to really look at the mare lines because there are just a lot of offspring out there of varying quality.
I am glad Apiro is going to get a chance to show at the top level. I know it's risky for stallion owners, but I have so much more respect for the ones that give their horses the chance to compete and be seen.

avadog
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:26 PM
Of course people like certain stallions over other stallions. I for one am a big Popeye K fan. I don't think it's weird if someone doesn't agree with me.

enjoytheride
Jan. 24, 2010, 07:56 PM
I LOLd at the part about someone texting Nikko.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:48 PM
I LOLd at the part about someone texting Nikko.

Ok why do you think its LOL? I happen to know Nikko and he texted me about Apiro, maybe you do not believe him, that's fine, but I do believe people I know. If he had something less to say I would not have posted it.
Some people can crawl back under the rock they came from.:(

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 24, 2010, 08:51 PM
:lol: Thanks for that, Summitt Springs, but it is pretty obvious that there are alters posting who have a personal agenda.

Hey I need to get with you next week to work out the details, Are you still at WEF? Anyway, I'll be in touch, Thx SSF

enjoytheride
Jan. 24, 2010, 09:20 PM
Summit Springs, no need to be so touchy. I found it amusing that texting is so popular you can simply test the rider of a horse and ask if the horse is good or not.

toomanyponies
Jan. 24, 2010, 11:57 PM
Nevada had the unfortunate luck to have me as an owner, so his Hunter showing was extremely casual. He is however, beginning to develop a name as a sire of Hunters. His babies are usually super junior & ammy friendly though, so they may not ever get to the 4' division.

One of his babies was the 2008 VHSA Associate Working Hunter (3') Year End High Point Champion (Res in 2009). At the VHSA Associates Championship show, a Nevada baby was 1st (5 year old) and 2nd (7 year old), in a class of 34. The winner also won the Stakes class at that show. He has now been sold to a lady that has been Champion A/O at the Washington International, so we will see where his career takes him. She needed to put a kid on him last minuite at his first show after purchasing him, and said he was SO good. He may just be needed to pack kids at 3'.

Others have been purchased to event, as again, they are Junior friendly, but even eventing, they are still showing their jump form.

The last 2 photos are Junior riders. #4 is being shown just a few days past her 4th birthday at 3'3".

His babies are also winning in Hunter Breeding, and Sidesaddle too.

Please name some names - in particular which one was champion A/O at WIHS? That's a fabulous accomplishment.

Also which are the first and third horses in the photos? They are lovely jumpers.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 12:39 AM
Denny & Unbridled Time are the 1st & 3rd horses in my photos. They are two of the ones being shown in the Hunters. Denny was recently purchased by Ann Garnett, so we will see how he does this year.

Silk
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:34 AM
Who is riding Apiro now? I recently saw an Apiro baby out of a nice TB mare. The mare is a good mover and well built, albeit a bit mare-ish. The colt seemed nice. He is/was a west coast stallion, right?

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:30 AM
I didn't read the past 6 pages or so of this thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. But I think it's a really, really important consideration.

The term "hunter ring" has become so relative in the past decade (hell, it's been this way for the past 30 years). If we all recall the "2'6 Hunter" thread, it becomes pretty cut and dry that there's a market for all kinds of horses of all kinds of ability level. And the ammy market is HUGE.

So in consideration of this, I think we're going to see a pretty big range of stallions known for producing ammy-friendly mounts. As Fairview pointed out, her stallion is not likely to produce horses for the regular ring. That being said, he's clearly produced a few super sane, super rideable 3 foot horses. No one can argue there's not a market for that kind of horse.

There's obviously a divide between the type of foals being produced by some of the "hot" stallions. Some of them are producing well for the hunter breeding rings. But that can be a hit or miss indicator of future talent in the regular rings. It seems a few have old enough foal crops that there are a few showing in the baby greens. But again, that's not an indicator of being a solid producer of regular horses.

So what does "hot sire for the hunter ring" mean? Does it mean horses that are competing successfully IN GENERAL? Or horses that are demonstrating consistent success in the regular rings? I think there's a pretty big dichotomy on this thread concerning the criteria by which a "successful" stallion is judged.

europa
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:10 AM
WOW whoever said that Apiro didn't belong in the category with Popeye K doesn't know Jack Sprat Crap about bloodlines. Apiro comes from quite possibly the MOST sought after European lines out there. Might want to study up a bit before you make such an incredibly foolish stamping statement.

showjumpers66
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:58 AM
Apiro is stationed out of Oklahoma and is currently being ridden by Nikko Ritter.


Who is riding Apiro now? I recently saw an Apiro baby out of a nice TB mare. The mare is a good mover and well built, albeit a bit mare-ish. The colt seemed nice. He is/was a west coast stallion, right?

wrightwoodfarms
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:49 PM
Point well made, FrenchFrytheEqHorse. I took "Hot sires .." to mean not necessarily which ones get talked about the most on here, but which ones might (I say might since many are as yet unproven) produce horses that top trainers aspire to have in their programs.

CBoylen once said on a previous thread that we should aspire to breed for the 4 foot hunter ring and since not every foal would grow up to be able to succeed in that ring, we would get lots of 3 foot and 3' 6" horses. (very paraphrased, but I really thought her comments made a lot of sense.)

Quinn
Jan. 25, 2010, 01:51 PM
Purchased a lovely Apiro baby and can tell you he is sensible, curious without being flighty, straight legged, bold and conformationally exceptional. Very very pleased with him.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 04:17 PM
that we should aspire to breed for the 4 foot hunter ring and since not every foal would grow up to be able to succeed in that ring, we would get lots of 3 foot and 3' 6" horses.

I do agree with this, but without the finances to prove a stallion showing at that level, we just have to wait for the babies to see whose hands they end up in.

We have placed a few now in homes that the intention is to compete in the 3'6" classes, but many people showing have no intention of ever competing at 4', so the odds of one showing at that level, and of us being able to find that out are slim to none.

There is such demand though for the horse that can be ridden by a junior, or timid amateur rider, that will probably be where the demand keeps most of them.

Nevada has many youngsters growing up now, but really, I hear from a few dozen owners, and many may think to update me once every 5 years or so.

Their names have changed, owners change, they are gone. Just this week I found and reported to Ken Ball a horse I bred that was lifetime recorded as a foal, with a different name for his new number, and life recording. The new owners actually almost kept the same name, but changed one letter in the spelling from a "c" to a 'k", and listed his sire as Navada, not Nevada, and of course, no breeder. :rolleyes: Sorry, but the new owners do know better, as they used to board with me, and were there at the horse's birth.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 25, 2010, 05:32 PM
The new owners actually almost kept the same name, but changed one letter in the spelling from a "c" to a 'k", and listed his sire as Navada, not Nevada, and of course, no breeder. :rolleyes: Sorry, but the new owners do know better, as they used to board with me, and were there at the horse's birth.

Go easy on the new owners. I know better but, I am enough of a space cadet that I would have spelled Nevada incorrectly. I always enter the breeder on my life registration, however.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 06:51 PM
Go easy on the new owners. I know better but, I am enough of a space cadet that I would have spelled Nevada incorrectly. I always enter the breeder on my life registration, however.

Due to circumstances, I am pretty sure this was not a mistake. Plus, the horse was already lifetime recorded.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:04 PM
Ok. Hear ya.

ktm2007
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:22 PM
Due to circumstances, I am pretty sure this was not a mistake. Plus, the horse was already lifetime recorded.

If the horse was lifetime recorded by you, the information (sire, dame, and breeder) that you entered would not change, and the horses USEF number stays the same. They can change the name, but I see no point in changing (or taking out in this case) the breeders info??? Actually, I didn't even know you [I]could[I] change that info on a life recorded horse

RugBug
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:22 PM
Due to circumstances, I am pretty sure this was not a mistake. Plus, the horse was already lifetime recorded.

Does that mean they didn't want to be associated with you or your stallion?

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:35 PM
Well, I don't think they wanted me to know they had purchased him the day after I contacted her, and took her to see him as an agent for the previous owner. ;)

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:36 PM
If the horse was lifetime recorded by you, the information (sire, dame, and breeder) that you entered would not change, and the horses USEF number stays the same. They can change the name, but I see no point in changing (or taking out in this case) the breeders info??? Actually, I didn't even know you [i]could[i] change that info on a life recorded horse

What usually happens is the horse is issued a new recording number. The information on the old number isn't changed and there is no link between the two numbers.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:38 PM
If the horse was lifetime recorded by you, the information (sire, dame, and breeder) that you entered would not change, and the horses USEF number stays the same. They can change the name, but I see no point in changing (or taking out in this case) the breeders info??? Actually, I didn't even know you [I]could[I] change that info on a life recorded horse

They just pretended he did not already have a lifetime number. Now he has two. :( We will see what the USEF does about it.

Kinsella
Jan. 25, 2010, 07:55 PM
And that is the issue... We will have to wait and see. Please let us know if they correct the record!

ktm2007
Jan. 25, 2010, 08:53 PM
They just pretended he did not already have a lifetime number. Now he has two. :( We will see what the USEF does about it.

oh ok I see. I was confused because all the horses I have transfered ownership on have kept everything already on file for them. Except of course the new ownership info!

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:06 PM
Yes, but people do want to lose the history on a horse, so they re-record like the horse has never been in the system. Horse goes poof, never to be seen or heard from again.

Does anyone know what happened to the points lists? It used to be you could click on a name, and find the horses and their points that had been attributed to that total. Now, no link? The page still SAYS to click on the link. :confused:

I always thought it was crazy that some of the top sires only had a handful of offspring competing to make up the sire points. I bet those were not the only ones competing of stallions that have had hundreds of offspring. I bet the rest had their names and numbers changed. :(

avadog
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:20 PM
Yes, but people do want to lose the history on a horse, so they re-record like the horse has never been in the system. Horse goes poof, never to be seen or heard from again.

Does anyone know what happened to the points lists? It used to be you could click on a name, and find the horses and their points that had been attributed to that total. Now, no link? The page still SAYS to click on the link. :confused:

I always thought it was crazy that some of the top sires only had a handful of offspring competing to make up the sire points. I bet those were not the only ones competing of stallions that have had hundreds of offspring. I bet the rest had their names and numbers changed. :(

Exactly. I always think it's funny when people say to check the USEF top sires list. Its not even a little bit accurate. The only way it will ever be accurate is if we go to some sort of a passport system like Europe.

TWF
Jan. 25, 2010, 09:34 PM
Because preserving the non-TB bloodlines of the US has never been competently addressed...

Stallions will sire good horses and lose their progeny to poor reporting, name changes and other means. Same goes for the Breeder who is not always required on entries..in Europe the breeder is listed on the program before the Owner!

I can't put much stake in the ranks and ratings since the data only goes back to 2002 or later AND ALL horses are not included in the reporting. What about the sires of previous decades? No Data...that certainly doesn't mean they didn't exist!
I'm willing to take a chance on a young stallion but I usually have a tried and true mareline to rely upon.

The US is plain stupid for the hottest stallions/registries of Europe while we lose the majority of our US-Bred legacies...there is no reliable data for our breeding in the US. Period.

One horse - One LIFETIME Number. Keep our breeding legacy intact. Change the name if you must; the number follows the horse.

ktm2007
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:08 PM
Yes, but people do want to lose the history on a horse, so they re-record like the horse has never been in the system. Horse goes poof, never to be seen or heard from again.

. :(

Maybe this should be on a different thread, but i wonder how the USEF could regulate this more effectively so the same horse does not have multiple USEF numbers.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:22 PM
Maybe this should be on a different thread, but i wonder how the USEF could regulate this more effectively so the same horse does not have multiple USEF numbers.

They can require a copy of the bill of sale & copy of the Coggins test at purchase, OR breeding certificate showing sire and dam, OR registration papers - the SAME as they have required for foals to get the discount since 2003?.

These things will show previous ownership. If none of the above are available, add on an extra fee, and require DNA so if in the future, it is challenged, there can be a large penalty for fraud.

There will always be a way around it, but at least these things will make honest people take the extra few minutes to get the paperwork, and it will make dishonest people at least think there could be consequences.

Faircourt
Jan. 25, 2010, 10:35 PM
Agreed Fairview, it would be so disappointing as a breeder not to be able to follow the success of your stallion's offspring.

Sure would mess up some honeys who reappear and measure as ponies too....

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 25, 2010, 11:24 PM
They can require a copy of the bill of sale & copy of the Coggins test at purchase, OR breeding certificate showing sire and dam, OR registration papers - the SAME as they have required for foals to get the discount since 2003?.

These things will show previous ownership. If none of the above are available, add on an extra fee, and require DNA so if in the future, it is challenged, there can be a large penalty for fraud.

There will always be a way around it, but at least these things will make honest people take the extra few minutes to get the paperwork, and it will make dishonest people at least think there could be consequences.

USEF already requires a copy of the bill of sale to transfer a horse recording.
But this sometimes backfires if the sale was done through an agent. Agent signatures are not accepted so the only other chpice is b) get a new recording ID.

Registration papers are not a practical solution. Some OTTB's do not have papers.
Same goes for breeding certificates. These are hunter and jumper divisions, not breed restricted.
Many successful horses were home bred and not recorded with any registry or their pedigree was unknown.

DNA as you know, is useless unless both parents ID's are known and on file with a lab.
Your implication that 'papers' being missing may equal fraud is a little over the top.

Going through all the hoops isn't going to deter anyone, just make it more annoying and probably force USEF to raise it's recording fees.

Just because you've had a problem with a client don't make it sound like everyone is out to cheat the breeder. Simply not true.

I'm sure for every horse by a particular stallion that gets a show record with USEF there are at least 10 that never make it to the rated show ring. Some horses are going to have careers as pleasure horses or field hunters or whatever. Doesn't mean they are bad horses, it just may mean they aren't show quality or the owner doesn't want the expense of showing.

It's not a conspiracy.

About coggins test as proof of ID.
You were kidding about that right?

TWF
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
[quote=PineTreeFarm;
Just because you've had a problem with a client don't make it sound like everyone is out to cheat the breeder. Simply not true.
[/quote]


Not Fair! FHC is not the only SO or breeder with a horse tracking problem. That's not the only problem with the lack of record keeping here in the US. Fraud is rampant since the ID of a horse can easily change and that really has not been addressed. If the TB can be tracked can't the rest of the industry enter the 21st Century? I'm sorry if you have a few homebreds w/o papers..the majority or horses have some sort of breeding ID ; if not why does the rest of this business have to stay in the Dark Ages? The loss of $$$ from the lack of credible records is huge..it is an industry embarrassment.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:19 AM
We have been around this circle many times before - actually for years I have been saying this on these forums, long before the current horse in question was born.

The USEF needs to require a bill of sale before a NEW recording. The bill of sale AND a copy of the coggins test will tie the horse to the vet and previous owner, and is a legal document that would help to verify color, markings, etc - traceable history.

The list of papers needed was OR, OR, OR, not all.
Bill of Sale OR Registration papers OR Breeding certificate

If they can't prodce ANY paperwork to tie the horse to a previous owner , then require an extra fee and DNA.

DNA was not to prove who the sire and dam was, but who THAT horse may be IF in the future it is challenged. 3 years down the line, if DNA is on file, and someone recognises the horse. It may be possible to prove who the horse is, and trace it back to who ever fraudulently tried to hide the identity.

Where in the world did I ever say missing registration papers had anything to do with fruad?!?!

I don't see the USEF backing off on proof of who the foals are for the discount, just because that is annoying. In fact, the proof is the reason that breeders can't register online. Now that is annoying, but we do it. Why are riders/owners/trainers so much more special than breeders to not have to go thru the hassle of sending proof? Want to save money/penalty fee? Send the proof.

I don't think hardly anyone is trying to cheat the breeder, that is just the result. People want to lose poor show records, lameness history, behavior problems, selling price, qualification history, or size/measuring, etc.

Here is a link to Denny Emmerson's thread several years ago. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum//showthread.php?t=84519&referrerid=97843

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:50 AM
Some OTTB's do not have papers.
Same goes for breeding certificates.

So lots of people buy an OTTB and don't get ANY bill of sale? No proof that they purcased the horse? Even meat auctions give receipts for purchaed horses. Really, who would put thousands of dollars of care, training, and show expenses on a horse without proof that they purchased it? Risk much? :eek:

showjumpers66
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:00 AM
Actually, a microchip would fix this problem. Require that horses applying for a new number to be scanned first to check for an existing chip. Lost papers could be resolved with a scan. Have TDs be responsible for the scanning. Shows could "rent" scanners from USEF for the TDs. It could be done with minimal hoopla. This could also eliminate some of the other fraud such as for drug tests and measurement cards.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:02 AM
I'm sure for every horse by a particular stallion that gets a show record with USEF there are at least 10 that never make it to the rated show ring.

Absolutely, but I bet there may be another 10 that DO have a USEF show record, but they are not traceable to that stallion or breeder.

Again, anyone know what happened to the ability to see the individual horse and their points that added up to a sire's total?

Seems like after several of these discussions about a few sires that were #1 by haiving 3 - 5 offspring competing, the links got zapped. ;)

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 01:09 AM
Shows could "rent" scanners from USEF for the TDs.

Dog scanners only run about $300. Less the cost for a single horse to be braided and stabled for a week long show - so maybe 25 cents per class entry to buy? I bet most local shows could afford to do that even.

Kinsella
Jan. 26, 2010, 10:35 AM
Incorrect information has been a huge problem at USEF for a long time. I can't begin to tell you the number of horses I had to fix - and that was data entered before I even got there. And it is not necessarily the fault of USEF. If you were to get 2 applications for a bay gelding with a star and lh sock, one with a pedigree and one without, how in the world could you know they are the same horse? Or how about the horse by Calypso I or Calypso II? If the owner sent it in a CI, but it's really CII, what can they do? Oh, that's right, require PHOTOS of the horses (a la APHA) and copies of registration papers or passport. Anything with a brand will have one of those available. For those that do not have it available, well, an extra fee and DNA isn't a bad idea at all. I think the chip idea is a tough one... There is no feasible way to make that work - the shows can't scan every horse, not should it be their responsibility. And who is to say that the trainers/owners that are already cheating the system by re-recording horses wouldn't have an old chip removed and a new one put in?

goodmorning
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:11 AM
And who is to say that the trainers/owners that are already cheating the system by re-recording horses wouldn't have an old chip removed and a new one put in?

Yes, those who wanted could easily have the chip removed and replaced (or not :winkgrin: )

CBoylen
Jan. 26, 2010, 11:38 AM
Again, anyone know what happened to the ability to see the individual horse and their points that added up to a sire's total?

Seems like after several of these discussions about a few sires that were #1 by haiving 3 - 5 offspring competing, the links got zapped. ;)
Every year when the current year starts the past year's standings have been converted to PDF with no links for offspring.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:16 PM
How nice. I know a few years ago I was able to search all of the years.

showjumpers66
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:53 PM
Every horse wouldn't need to be scanned ... only horses that were having something done such as being measured, drug tested, or receiving a new USEF number. Yes, the chips could be removed, but they aren't going to be able to remove it for the drug testing or measurement card.



I think the chip idea is a tough one... There is no feasible way to make that work - the shows can't scan every horse, not should it be their responsibility. And who is to say that the trainers/owners that are already cheating the system by re-recording horses wouldn't have an old chip removed and a new one put in?

fish
Jan. 26, 2010, 12:59 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why having every horse scanned would be such a big deal. How much harder would it be than scanning items going out of a store or tattoos on horses entering a race?

Kinsella
Jan. 26, 2010, 04:38 PM
Who is going to pay for the scanner and manpower for the time it would take to scan the horses at a show such as WEF? And before the idea of doing it like they do racehorses is tossed out again let me ask how many rings there are going at WEF? You'd have to have a scanner and human at every gate in order to follow the race track example. Having every horse at a show scanned is a logistical nightmare. Scanning the ones getting measured or tested is feasible, but not practical. The shows are not the governing body and it should not be their responsibility to police horse recordings.

Everyone complains that fees are too high as it is, yet everyone wants to add work for management....

Peggy
Jan. 26, 2010, 04:52 PM
Drug testing is already done by USEF so it doesn't seem that adding a scan to that process would be a big deal.

Likewise, seems that adding a scan to a measurement process would add a negligible amount of time, tho it would be a bit more work for the vet and/or show steward.

Checking every horse that was either recorded at the show or was showing for the first time after being recorded would definitely be more of a problem. You'd need to figure out which ones needed to be done which is a bookkeeping issue, but doable. Ones that have the chip installed but need it to be scanned takes time, but not that much. It's getting them installed that might be the biggest issue. There's the time involved tho it's not that much. Also, I think that some horses need to be sedated, and people would certainly use that as an excuse not to have it done, even if the horse would actually be OK. But, in the end I think it would be worth it and, yes I would pay.

It seems that USEF could do something about seeking out the multiple records. Let's face it--two horses with the same name and same basic ownership should be obvious as should two horses with the same year of birth and same dam. But maybe I am asking too much of the system.

I would love to have a permanent scanner installed at say, the pre-green and green rings, to verify the status as they go in the gate.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 05:03 PM
Random scans just like random drug tests.

Still, just requiring what they do for foals to get the discount would go a LONG way.

fish
Jan. 26, 2010, 05:52 PM
I thought there already was a "gatekeeper at every gate": the person/s taking and checking numbers for jump order. Still fail to see the big deal of having them hold a scanner, too.

And, yes, random checks are another possibility.

CBoylen
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:02 PM
Still fail to see the big deal of having him hold a scanner, too.
That would be a HUGE deal. The ingate guy already holds a microphone, a laptop, and at least two radios. He has to call the order over the speaker as each horse goes in the ring, call the judge and announcer with each horse's number, call every other ring at the show to find out where each trainer is and adjust his order correctly, answer the calls from every other ring asking him where each trainer is, answer the question "when does my class go?" or "how many until I go?" every 30 seconds, update the live scoring on the computer after each round, call for the water truck and drag as needed, keep an eye on his schooling area to see who is getting ready and who is missing so he can either put them in the order or find them, make barn calls to give updates on his ring status, and deal with all the add and scratch forms, as well as a million other things that I've forgotten to mention. Make him hold a scanner too and either he'll quit or the show will run past the almost-dark that they all seem to run anyway.

showjumpers66
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:26 PM
But, the show officials are supposed to checking coggins with the horses when they arrive and that is almost never done. If that is ever required, this would be the perfect time to scan the horse.

Personally, I think the scans should be done with drug tests, measure cards, or the first show when a new number is issued. This should be very doable.

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 26, 2010, 06:49 PM
But, the show officials are supposed to checking coggins with the horses when they arrive and that is almost never done. If that is ever required, this would be the perfect time to scan the horse.

Personally, I think the scans should be done with drug tests, measure cards, or the first show when a new number is issued. This should be very doable.

Scanning the horse when they check in opens the door to a different horse being the one to be at the show ring.
Also, the stable guy usually has a bunch of horses arrive at the same time. You'd need to clone him to do this.

And there are some ( like me ) that aren't absolutely sure they want a chip in their horse. Not even sure how foolproof that is. Out with one chip in with another. Poof, new horse.

Not every show is WEF. In fact there are many one day C and B shows that aren't going to go along with the scanner thing because of expense and even more limited manpower than an AA show.

The JC does a pretty good job of ID'ing race horses but they have lots of starters and asst starters for each race. Anybody know if the JC does ID in the barn, on the track or at various points/times on the track.

If a reliable method to ID a horse can be found then yes, do it as part of a drug test or a measurement.

Show management isnt going to know that any one particular horse is at it's first show after getting a number.

showjumpers66
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:05 PM
:lol: You are definately one of those glass half empty kind of people, aren't you? :winkgrin: I think you need chocolate.

Not suggesting that horses be checked upon arrival at all ... just stating that coggins are supposed to be checked against the actual horse and this is almost never done, so I can see the concern in having all horses scanned.

It is super easy to check for a microchip at the horse's first show and it wouldn't be difficult at all to get a system in place to know which ones are going to their first show. Shoot ... bet half of them sign up for a USEF number AT their first show. I don't think it is as necessary to screen the horses at the B & C show level.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:30 PM
That would be a HUGE deal. The ingate guy already holds a microphone, a laptop, and at least two radios.

Where does he find the extra hand to open and close the gate for each horse? :eek:

Kinsella
Jan. 26, 2010, 07:58 PM
Dead on Chanda... But can't you just see asking Pat to scan all the horses too? :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, seriously, there are issues with tracking horses and I agree that it really wouldn't be that difficult to clean up the USEF database if someone cared enough to do it. But it would be a time-consuming task and would have to be done by someone that has at least a little bit of a clue about pedigrees. ( "No, my horse is by G Ramiro Z, not Ramiro!" Yes, that argument was made to me when I worked there. ) I do not forsee chips being the way it goes in the future though, no matter how great of an idea it sounds. There are those that don't want it, and I don't think chipping a horse at a show is a good idea.....

This has gone way off track... I couldn't begin to pick the "hot" sires for the hunter ring. I have ones I like that I am sure others do not like, and I know there are some I don't like that are revered by others. We are a long way from knowing how some of the younger stallions will actually pan out, and the ones that come closest to being "proven" as sires are either deceased or older and long past their own show career. Find what stallion improves your mare and has offspring you like and go from there. Someone on here said that a nice horse is a nice horse is a nice horse, and nice sells no matter the pedigree (well, close enough :cool: ) and that is what you need to remember.

Kinsella
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:01 PM
Where does he find the extra hand to open and close the gate for each horse? :eek:
I haven't seen an actual closed gate on anything other than a big Prix or the Hunter Derby in YEARS. (well, except when the rings themselves are closed of course!) The term "gate guy" is such a misnomer. Shows do not run without a great gate crew and they really do work their asses off. Love those guys! (and not in a gate bunny kind of way ;) )

Samotis
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:06 PM
I have a question. Maybe someone can answer it...

When looking up last years top hunter stallions (their offspring), a new window pops up and you can't click on it. So you can't look up the horses that are actually by any of these stallions. It just shows you points the the offspring of each stallion made. That could be won by 1 horse, or many!

It makes it difficult to see how many horses these stallions actually have showing.

Also, when looking up a horses show history, wouldn't it be nice to have the stallion in the search database. So say I was looking for horses showing by the stallion Cassini I. I could plug in his name and all the horses that are by Cassini would pop up so you can look at their shows records?

Couldn't that be a possible thing? Shoot, I am bored, if they want to give me a job, I will do it! ;)

I just find it really difficult to find out any good info on the USEF website. Some people don't even put the breeding of their horse. I know it is starting to get better, but it would help those of us who actually look at bloodlines to help us narrow our stallion search!

Food for thought. ;)

CBoylen
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:07 PM
I was also trying to remember the last time I saw an actual gate. I think the only ones left are at indoors, and Seaweed opens and closes them. When we lose him they'll probably have to take those off the hinges too.

Fairview Horse Center
Jan. 26, 2010, 08:46 PM
I thought I remembered gates being opened at both Upperville and Warrenton. No gates even for the pony rings?

Samotis
Jan. 26, 2010, 09:04 PM
I have seen many a pony keep cantering out of the gate back to the barn. :lol: