What else to try to stop diarrhea?

[Equus_girl]

My horse has had consistent issue with diarrhea since September and I am at my wits end, because I do not know what else to try.
It’s going to be a long story, but I want to make sure not to miss any important information.

Jax is 10yo gelding. Since Dec 08 he was rehabbing on grassy pasture (we are in California so it’s grassy all year around) and spent nights at his stall, where he was getting breakfast of bran, beet pulp and around 2 flakes of hay, plus one flake for dinner.
Fast forward to July 09, and he moved to equine hospital for tendon surgery (pasture rehab did not help.) I kept him for another 2.5 months under hospital’s care, where he obviously was on stall rest, with once a day hand walking. Due to being 300lbs overweight, they put him on a diet of two flakes a day.
Come September and welcome diarrhea. They did another de-worming treatment (he was and is on 4x a year rotation schedule) and did full blood work. Nothing pointed to any problems, so we figured it was due to stress, different living conditions, and should be gone at some point. They recommended using Forco to stabilize his GI tract.
I brought him home in October and we tried everything we could think of without much success.

First, he was getting two flakes of timothy hay a day, with bran and some senior formula for lunch. Then, we tried different timothy, and then we tried switching one flake to alfalfa. There was no improvement for any of these combinations. He was and still is getting Forco. About a month ago, we switched to full senior formula and there was a lot of improvement but last week, his manure was literally like water. I have not seen it being that bad. He drinks a lot, so I am not that worried about dehydration at this point. And I recently noticed him eating his shavings :(

His tendon issues and recent surgery prevent me from allowing any turnout, so he is locked in the stall. He is getting handwalked every morning, and gets ridden daily for about 45 mins sessions. We are at 20 minutes of trot at this moment.
Vet is puzzled, there are no ulcer symptoms, he is not losing any weight, is not girthy and generally does not display any signs of discomfort besides being constantly hungry. Vet recommended doing scoping for colon ulcers as a last resort, but I am hoping that still have some other things to try before going for scoping.

Part of me thinks its stress related, but his daily routine has been very consistent for the last 4 months, and he settled down very quickly at the new place. I am a believer in horses leading more “natural life” and spending as much time as possible outside, but as I said, it’s simply impossible. This is our last chance at soundness, even if temporarily, and I do not want to blow it with turnout.
The way I see it there are several things we could try:
- Nibble Net and keeping hay there all day long, in case his issues are due to empty stomach. His stomach is definitely empty most of the day. I do feel bad for him as he inhales his senior formula in the time it takes me to pick his feet and put his blanket on :O We are following recommendations of feed manufacturers and it was supposed to be a temporary thing to see if he improves, and he did, but only for two weeks.
- Putting him on Ulcerguard, but it’s mostly for stomach ulcers, and we are all pretty positive he does not have any. Our vet is researching whether it will help with colon ulcers, in case that’s our problem.
- I have heard about benefits of beet pulp for diarrhea, should we try it?

What do you, guys, think? Probiotics? Bio sponge? The vet said she did not really believe that any supplement could help him with recovery, but willing to try anything for an odd chance of success.
And what the heck do I do about shavings? Its a faber, so it should have helped with his diarrhea, could it be something that made it even worse? Our barn does not use straw bedding, so I am not sure if we can switch, but I am will be begging BO to let me use straw if eating shavings is self destructive.

[MassageLady]

Check the thread on the vet section-about the muscle testing-it's great and manyhave had a lot of success with it.

[tarynls]

A horse that boarded at an old barn had constant diarrhea. They never did figure out what caused it, but the horse was put on the powdered Biosponge daily and the horse didn't have a problem after that.

Perhaps you could try a tube or two of Biosponge to see if it helps your particular case?

[fivehorses]

I am kind of surprised the horse has not been on probiotics. I don't know bio sponge, but have read successful uses by others on this board.

I would also try the nibble net, if for no other reason but to keep this horse occupied.
One of the worse things about stall rest is boredom. Never mind what it does physically to them. I hope you have considered a magnetic blanket(the kind you rent) to stimulate muscle...he will lose a lot of muscle being in a stall. I understand its necessary, but as pt people will tell you, its not the injury its the rehab that is important. I would also be doing massages, etc, carrot stretches,etc.

I know you didn't ask for all that, but I wonder how much is stress, and he needs stimulation.

another thing my horse was tested for when he developed diarhhea at the equine clinic was salmonella. Has he been tested for that? He should be, in fact, kind of surprised your vet hasn't done that, didn't recommend probiotics, and also any time antibiotics are uses, a prophylactic dose of ulcergard is certainly a benefit.
also, you can call merial to find out about ulcergard/gastrogard helping the colon.

I would get him his hay at all times. As far as feeding any concentrates(grain) during stall rest, again I was told no. They don't need it. If you have to give him something, give him hay pellets, alfalfa pellets, etc.

Oh, I just tried stomach soother, a papaya juice. Too hard for me up here in the frozen tundra to manage, so I just switched to papaya tablets. Just started, but look up papaya. But, really, that is the least of your worries.

I'd start with salmonella test.
nibble net of a consistant hay
remove the grain and sub hay or alfalfa pellet
stimulate his mind with games, stretches
ensure he always has a buddy in the barn in sight, close by
probiotics, biosponge, something along that line.
prophalactic ulcergard/gastrogard when he is on antibiotics as well as a probiotic too when on antibiotics.
good luck.

[Grataan]

I've had a few clients report good luck switching their horses over to no hay diets-strictly timothy and/or orchard grass pellets.

One would think the longer fiber in hay would be best in this situation but apparently the pelleted fiber length is acceptable. YMMV but they said once they had switched over completely the diarrhea was gone within days.

[Elfe]

This worked for my horses:
http://www.arenus.com/p-16-assure-plus.aspx#assure=tab1
I also started feeding them a low carb hay (orchard grass), which they have available all the time.
Good luck !

[goeslikestink]

stop the bran its also a laxative feedstuffs ie can give them the runs
if the horse gut isnt going well then you feed that to help it through the system

to much of it will make the horse have the runs

so many people feed feeds without knowing what they do or what they are i surgest you take him of all grain as hes overweight anyways bring him in off the pasture for a couple of hours so his tomach can rest and do as the vets say and only feed him a couple sections of hay in small quanities

and then learn about feeds and supplements and read the back of all feed packets as it tell you the ingrediants and all supplements

and dont feed pelleted foodstuffs as they are a complete feedstuffs so can contain high energy feeds

so learn about cool mixes low calories feeds and then high and low energy feedstuffs

[headsupheelsdown]

Steady, regular diet and probiotics. I suggest FasTrack, as it is apparently so yummy they will even eat it right out of your hand, or eat it out of their bucket even if not getting any grain. I am sure they other brands are fine, too... I use Probios paste in a pinch. Never heard of BioSponge... will have to check into that in case I ever have a case that probiotics don't clear up pretty quick.

And here we don't wait for the horses to actually have loose stools to use pro-biotics.. we give a short course after any time we worm them, or if they are on antibiotics or are showing, stressed or trailering. Any time we are looking at the possibility of their gut going into an uproar. A little scoopie of FasTrack in their feed for a couple of days, and no problems.

[fivehorses]

I want to ditto goeslikestink said about no bran...forget to mention that. Bran is a laxative! Your vet makes me nervous.
my own local vets are not necessarily the best but I have a hospital clinic I can go to or consult.
When you don't have good vets, you need to do lots of internet research about things. Not your fault, but as I say, you must be your horses' own advocate, especially if you have a backyard vet who is just use to giving shots, and not doing too much above that, for whatever reason.

[aspenlucas]

I just had great success with Probiale. Comes in a tube or a tub for maintenance. Has pre and probiotics.

[dwblover]

It does sound like the horse is a good candidate for colonic ulcers. One cup of powdered psyllium husk per day can greatly help the symptoms. I would also stop the bran and add probios as well as Bio-Sponge. Best of luck!

[Dalemma]

I would also suggest stopping the bran.........if he is overweight then I would put him on a low sugar hay only, no pellets or extras except supplements....high sugar hay can cause diarrhea.

I would also suspect ulcers.

Dalemma

[SLW]

I have used this product personally with my horses (and seen it used at the equine clinic when I worked there) and had great success. It smells like an Italian kitchen!! http://www.petnutritionproducts.com/DiaGelVBGDiarrheaControlforHorses30ml-p-1490.html

I have no ideas on what is causing your horses problem but it might be worthwhile giving it a try to see if your horse responds to it until you can isolate the cause. Good luck.

[Meadow36]

Check out this link:

http://www.zoologix.com/horse/Datasheets/EquineDiarrheaPanel.htm

There's some really good information there on things to test for if you haven't done so already.

In the meantime - pre/probiotics, little to no grain, and all day hay in the nibble net. You may want to provide electrolytes in his water since he is losing so much in the diarrhea. I've never used the Bio-Sponge but I've heard good things about it - worth the try, especially if Clostridium is the problem.

[marta]

i second, third, recommendation to stop the bran. i'd add some probiotics and either biosponge or activated charcoal for at least a little while.

i'm honestly surprised that the vet didn't object to the horse not eating all day. we are constantly reminded that these are animals whose digestive system is set up to work constantly. it seems logical that when to keep a digestive track healthy you need to ensure that the horse has access to hay nearly around the clock.

sounds like the nibblenet may provide you with a way to make his hay last longer. if you need more ideas on how to feed an easy keeper, check out the yahoo group dedicated to cushings horses or to the metabolic horse. it's amazing what people come up with ;)

[hey101]

My mare has had off-and-on bouts of diarrhea since I've owned her, coming up on 4 years now. It was much much worse and more often when I first got her, but after several years of tinkering, I've managed to have it crop up only occaisonally. You'd never know it to look at her- perfect weight, super-shiny coat, laid-back, very athletic. I've asked several vets about it and none of them are that concerned since she's so obviously in great health otherwise.

Anyhoo... here's what worked for me/ suggestions:
-Agree ditch the bran.
-Move to a mostly beet pulp based diet.
-Eliminate as much or all grain, esp if he's not doing much at the moment.
-Definitely get him on a probiotic... but if the first one you try doesn't seem to work, try a different one. It took me awhile to figure this one out...there are only two brands that work for my mare, and the other ones don't do a thing. I keep her on a probiotic at all times.
-I don't know your location in CA, but I'm in sandy SoCal so I worry about sand accumulation in her gut. Maybe try adding a psyllium supplement (ie Sand Clear or something similar) but probably it's a waste of money... I've since read some papers that feeding a lot of beet pulp will do as much or more to remove any build-up. I tried the Sand Clear for awhile but then stopped it.
-Try to keep as consistent a hay supply as possible. Now that I've addressed most of the other "issues", I've noticed that her bouts of diarrhea seem to correspond to changes in the hay at the barn. I'm in a boarding situation, so not much I can do about this one other than clean her butt up and double up on the probiotics for a few days.

Good luck!

[Equus_girl]

Thank you all for replies and suggestions! I really appreciate all the help and advice I get on this forum!

At home, Jax has been getting bran only once a week, but I will make sure to remove even Sunday lunch from his diet, as we are definitely not needing any more laxatives.
My vet did a Succeed test for blood in feces, to confirm or rule out ulcers and it was negative.

We are starting him on BioSponge today and I am ordering two nibblenets for hay. Senior Formula pellets have to stop.

I was driving this morning and it hit me that horse was getting progressively worse since he got switched to pellets a month ago. He was amazingly well behaved for a rehab project when he came. When we switched to senior formula he was rather lame (one of things we have to deal with on and off. he has adhesions between DDFT and navicular bursa, so every time they break we have lameness period) and obviously and did not act up, so I did not think much of the feed. But about two weeks ago, farrier put full pads on him, and it relieved sole pressure, so he has gotten to about 99% soundness. That's about when he became pretty crazy under the saddle, which is not his usual self and even demonstated 1ft high leap in the air, something I have NEVER seen him do. So, the feed is deninitely to blame.

goeslikestink, unfortunately, you are right about my lack of knowledge in equine nutrition. I am a green horse owner and used to rely on BOs and vets to determine feed regime for my horse. This is a good time to start learning :( I have located a local equine nutritionist and will have her come over to the barn to analyze our feed and help me to determine what type of feed he needs to be getting.

hey101, he is not getting any turnout, so sand is out. Consumption of shavings is worrying me a lot, though.

marta, I am totally with you. I brought it up yesterday, that I do not understand how it would help his digestive tract not to be eating and she replied that even though she also thinks that its the best for the horse to be munching on hay all day long, it wont help our specific scenario. I did not want to start stirring things up badly, because I have never had any issues with her in the past and trusted her opinion. She was always welcome to suggestions and trying new things, so I think we need to sit down and discuss it again as she is running out of things to try.

Meadow36, thanks for the link! I am going to order the test and see whether anything will come up on Equine GI / diarrhea PCR.

fivehorses, thank you for rehab suggestions! We are doing monthly acupuncture and chiropracter checkups, but I have not tried massage and stretching. I will try to find someone to show me how its done.

So, here is what my plan is going to be:
- Get him off pellets and start daily biosponge supplementing
- Keep constant low carb hay supply via nibble net
- Order electrolytes
- Order Equine GI / diarrhea PCR panel to check for bacteria

[CatOnLap]

you know, the simpler you can make his diet, the better and think also- the horses has had a lot of changes in 8 months. Any dietary change can take weeks and months to adjust to, as the gut flora adjust their populations. Plus the horse had tendon surgery not long ago and the problem started shortly after, while on a weight reduction diet. One wonders if he got some powerful antibiotics for the surgery and this may have led to a colitis for a time, which being on a weight reducing plan, he might not have had the immunity to fight off well!

So maybe its time to stop making a lot of changes, keep things as simple and close to nature as possible- the nibble net makes sense too.

I owned a horse with chronic diarhea once too- the horse was an easy keeper, totally wonderful to ride and happy- but always had loose stools. I figure better that than constipation,( especially for a horse on stall rest!) and just kept his tail wrapped to keep it clean, and rinsed his dock off frequently if the manure had a lot of liquid. Later when he went onto pasture instead of hay, the problem cleared up for him- after a couple of months.

[goeslikestink]

you know, the simpler you can make his diet, the better and think also- the horses has had a lot of changes in 8 months. Any dietary change can take weeks and months to adjust to, as the gut flora adjust their populations. Plus the horse had tendon surgery not long ago and the problem started shortly after, while on a weight reduction diet. One wonders if he got some powerful antibiotics for the surgery and this may have led to a colitis for a time, which being on a weight reducing plan, he might not have had the immunity to fight off well!

So maybe its time to stop making a lot of changes, keep things as simple and close to nature as possible- the nibble net makes sense too.

I owned a horse with chronic diarhea once too- the horse was an easy keeper, totally wonderful to ride and happy- but always had loose stools. I figure better that than constipation,( especially for a horse on stall rest!) and just kept his tail wrapped to keep it clean, and rinsed his dock off frequently if the manure had a lot of liquid. Later when he went onto pasture instead of hay, the problem cleared up for him- after a couple of months.

agree

[woops]

google red rasberry leaf! also known as mare magic
but do the specs on red rasberry leaf.
We always used it for pups with the runs.

[SunnysideJate]

I had a gelding that was diagnosed with Inflammatory bowel disease and we treated him with prednisolone and Biosponge. We never figured out what caused it. He received .5# of Biosponge powder in his meals 2x a day. I purchased the 21# bucket from Platinum Performance and had them ship it to the farm. I think now you can buy it in a paste form.

My vet ultrasounded my gelding and he had a thickened bowel and his white blood cell count was high. She performed other tests and ruled out lymphosarcoma. The prednisolone and Biosponge did help but he never did get 100% better and in the summer of 2008 he had a really bad relapse and I made the painful descision to euthanize him because he really was dehydrated, lethargic and weak.

Good luck with your boy I hope he gets well soon.

Elaine

[KrazyTBMare]

My girlfriend has a pony that is always bloated and has projectile watery manure if he is fed anything that has soy in it. Since taking him off all soy, he has had maybe 2-3 bouts of diarreah in the last year.

Also, have you ever given him psyllium to purge any sand?

I would also agree that pro and pre biotics might help.

Hope you get it figured out.

[Eeq]

I heard Succeed works good. I think you can get it from your vet its worth a try!

[SunnysideJate]

I've heard good things about Suceed also. It is available by me at my local tack store. If you decide on Biosponge buy it from the mfr. A 4# jar from my vet was $85.00 and the 21# bucket with shipping from Platinum Performance was about $100.00.

[purplnurpl]

stop the grain/bran

100% free choice hay

my horse has really smooshy poo unless he is on slippery elm. great stuff. Helps with ulcers also.
http://www.vitaminwarehouse.com/shop/detail.cfm/sku/34241

feed it with a bit of soaked beet pulp and maybe add a vitamin supplement if you feel the need

add probiotics (you can get it in a little tub or syringe called probios at any local feedstore. blue label)

the worst thing for a horse on stall rest is for it to have nothing to eat.

[feetofclay1678]

I would get him on a probiotic supplement Yesterday! There is alot to choose from in the probiotic field, but the one I like the best, and that has worked for me the best, and for others that i know, Is Equerry's Probiotic. Has always worked like a charm. Relatively cheap, for a good month or two's worth, and can't hurt to try it! Good luck with your fellow...hope you find out whats up with him soon.:sadsmile:

[fivehorses]

ok, a follow up, why electrolytes?
Does he need them, is he sweating a lot? I would not add electrolytes unless needed, and I would also check out those without sugar. Quench is a good one, but again, why?

I suggested a salomonella test, as well as nibble net and a few other things.

I did not suggest chiro or accupuncture, not that I am not a fan of those practices. Thats all fine, but I would start with the elimination of the bran, probiotics, nibble net for diarhhea.

for stall bound issues, yes, chiro, accu, mag blanket to stimulate muscle, stretches and all sorts of mind stimulating games. also a buddy in the barn at all times too.

I just want to underscore, do small changes.
probiotics,
no bran, etc.

Don't go overboard crazy. I think most of the suggestions are really similar.

[trafalgar]

I did nothave time to read all the posts but I just thought of a friend who was a very good horseman using yogurt....someone may have said this or you may have a reason not to use it but you might ask your vet

[feetofclay1678]

I did nothave time to read all the posts but I just thought of a friend who was a very good horseman using yogurt....someone may have said this or you may have a reason not to use it but you might ask your vet

yogurt has the same beneficial properties as pre/probiotics. that is why people eat yogurt to help make them "regular" :lol:

[Equus_girl]

ok, a follow up, why electrolytes?
Does he need them, is he sweating a lot? I would not add electrolytes unless needed, and I would also check out those without sugar. Quench is a good one, but again, why?

I suggested a salomonella test, as well as nibble net and a few other things.

I did not suggest chiro or accupuncture, not that I am not a fan of those practices. Thats all fine, but I would start with the elimination of the bran, probiotics, nibble net for diarhhea.

for stall bound issues, yes, chiro, accu, mag blanket to stimulate muscle, stretches and all sorts of mind stimulating games. also a buddy in the barn at all times too.

I just want to underscore, do small changes.
probiotics,
no bran, etc.

Don't go overboard crazy. I think most of the suggestions are really similar.

Thank you for following up!
I was thinking about electrolytes because his manure literally consisted of water and shavings :( But the idea is out as we ran another blood panel and everything is normal, except for sodium which is a bit higher, but thats probably because he was entertaining himself with mineral salt block.

[Equus_girl]

Thank you all for for valuable help and suggestions!
I have a good update :)

Jax is on grass hay and Bio Sponge 2x a day, and manure has gotten much better. It has only been 4 days since the feed change and there is still some water coming out, but at least now it has some shape and color to it :) (sorry for colorful details, but it was definitely a reason for a little celebration.)

Manure tested negative to Salmonella, Ehrlichia risticii, Clostridium difficile and Lawsonia intracellularis. He also tested negative to Succeed ulcers test, so its probably safe to rule ulcers out and stick to theory that his digestive problems have to do with stall rest and boredom.

The nibblenet is on the way as well as probiotics, so I am hoping probiotics will take care of good bacterias in his gut and nibblenet will somewhat help with boredom. I am going to load his stall with toys.

[sublimequine]

Glad to hear the good update! :D

[fivehorses]

Great news, and thanks for following up.

Can you tell me about the Succeed Ulcer test?

[AJHorsey]

Succeed has an ulcer test that uses manure, a container, water, and their mix to determine if ulcers are a possibility with your horse. I got mine through the vet, though I think you can get a "test kit" through places like SmartPak.

Does it work? I dunno- all I know is that since I've had it available, my horse hasn't coliced, so it's been a great preventative for us, LOL! ;)

[Equus_girl]

Great news, and thanks for following up.

Can you tell me about the Succeed Ulcer test?

It basically checks for blood in manure. Even if there is blood,
its not necessarily ulcers, but its a good possibility. Still, blood in manure definitely needs future investigation

http://www.succeedfbt.com/index.asp

[fivehorses]

thanks for the link, and continued good luck with your horse.

[in_the_zone]

http://www.smartpakequine.com/landingpgs/succeed_info.aspx

SUCCEED

My vet uses this on her mare that has loose stools. I'm the one who scoops the poop. It works. :)

[lintesia]

FWIW -- my horse had chronic diarrhea for several months. We took him off all supplements, so his diet was simply grass hay. Over the course of many weeks, we tried Psyllium, Succeed, Restore, ProBios, and yoghurt. He had a workup at the vet clinic -- tested negative to salmonella, etc. and showed no indications of ulcers. At that point, my vet put him on a course of metronidazole (sp?). In two days, the diarrhea was completely gone (he stayed on the antibiotic for the full course, though).

After that, he would get a periodic flare-up when a new batch of hay came in but I started giving him a cup of Aloe Vera Juice every day which has made a huge difference.

[FancyASB]

My ASB mare was having a horrible problem with diarrhea, my Vet ran every kind of test on her stool sample NOTHING showed up. He suggested to take her off hay and put her on oat & grass hay pellets and cut back grain she gets Safechoice. Within two days diarrhea was gone. I've kept her on the diet and no more diarrehea in over a month. I had tried bio sponge with no success. No more dirty stinky butt cleaning and she seems much happier; she loves her pellets.

[SonnyandLacy]

Have you actually gotten a fecal test done??

I would take him off shavings and have him in straw if you're worried about him eating the shavings. Plus he always has something to eat if he gets bored.