worming vs. fecall counts

[Foxtrot's]

What do you experienced horse owners think?

I have two horse, 7 y.o. and l7 month old. They are on a two-month worming
program (on rotation), recommended by vets in this area where the winters are not particularly cold.

Wormer is about $17.00 each. A fecal count is $40.00 so there is not a lot of difference. But the little guy has had such a time with his ulcers (now scoped as healed) that I hate to put anything into his tummy. We have our horses at home on a very small acreage, and after thirty years there are bound to be some eggs around, especially since we spread the manure and I can't guarantee that it got hot enough to kill the eggs.

I was thinking I could mix both horses manure for one fecal count and if there are any eggs at all, then I could worm each horse. Or do most counts come
back with a worm burden, regardless of regular worming.

[Flipper]

With all of the resistance to dewormers, if you can avoid using them, so much the better. I have been doing fecals on my guys @ every 6 months or so to check their status. If the exam shows any worms, I'll treat them. I only have 2 horses, and I work for a vet, so the cost is minimal for me. One of my guys has been negative for the past 2 years (and he actually boards at another barn over the winter) & the other one shows worms maybe once a year.

[mjmvet]

Though the kicker is that a horse may be "negative" on a fecal float (or have a low fecal egg count by the McMasters method, which is the test most veterinarians recommend) and still have lots of parasites, including encysted stronglyes. Most veterinarians still recommend periodic deworming for bots, tapes and encysted strongyles even if a fecal test is negative. I think there's a lot more to be learned about parasitology!

[JB]

I have never heard of it being proven that the chemicals of the dewormers aggravate ulcers.

However, it's KNOWN that parasites can cause ulcers in various parts.

Don't mix 2 horses manure and deworm, or not, based on the results. If you get a high enough count to warrant deworming you have no idea if it's solely due to 1 horse. Some horses always carry a high load - they just have no/low immunity. Others very rarely need chemical assistance - high immunity.

Yes, in the short term, fecals are more $$ than deworming. But if, over time, you find that you have 1+ horses who consistently come up with very low counts, then all you have to do for them is tapeworms and bots (ie Equimax) twice a year and a yearly fecal. That's cheaper than 6 dewormings every year, year after year.

If a horse routinely comes up with no/low counts of strongyles, even then you know he's got a low/no load of encysted strongyles, since they have to emerge at some time, and would show up on a fecal at that point.

[Gry2Yng]

My vet charges $18 for a fecal. Wonder why there is such a price difference.

[Char0308]

My Vet Group only charges $12-15 for fecal count; plus trip charges. My understanding is its not just a resistance issue, as its certain parasites types have been wiped out and/or aren't as prevalent in certain areas so you need to choose your wormer based on the season and types of parasites throughout the year. Also when your area has a hard freeze effects parasite life cycles. Also finding out if you horse is low or high on fecal counts to determine their natural immunities is important. My vet office wrote an interesting article; go to this website and scroll down to Deworming a New Approach. http://equinemedicalassociates.web.officelive.com/SeptemberNewsletter.aspx

[Dawn&Reno]

$40 seems exceptionally high. Not sure what the conversion rate is right now. But regardless, that seems exceptionally high. Maybe look at pricing with different vets or see if you have a mail order option available?

I agree that mixing wouldn't be a good move. If one horse has a moderate egg count, and the other is very low. Then mixing might still result in a low egg count. So instead of deworming the one that needed it, you wouldn't be deworming either of them.

[Dalemma]

Yes you can mix the manure of several horses and have a fecal count down.......well it won't tell you which horse is the culprit it will give you and idea whether your worming program is working.....best time to do a fecal count is just prior to worming.

I bought the McMaster slides and do my own fecal counts as I have 6 horses..........I am down to worming once in the fall when they come off pasture and then again in the spring when they go back out.......this is on the advice of my vet and the results of my fecal counts. By doing it myself I can run fecals once a week one month prior to worming which should catch some one shedding worms if they in fact have any....doing it this way I have only every come across two large strongyles and that was on my mare that has allergies and had not been wormed in one year.

I have one horse that seems to have an allergy to wormiers she breaks out in hives......so keeping her worming to a min. is important.

Emma

[JB]

Yes you can mix the manure of several horses and have a fecal count down.......well it won't tell you which horse is the culprit it will give you and idea whether your worming program is working.....best time to do a fecal count is just prior to worming.
Sure, you CAN do this, but then you may think you have to deworm all horses in the sample. You will never learn if you have horses who have high immunity and only need to have tapes and bots treated twice a year, and nothing else. The program can work just fine for that horse, but not work well for the other 1+ horses.

I agree that doing fecals yourself isn't hard, becomes pretty cheap once you buy the microscope, and saves a lot of $$ in the long run.

[Foxtrot's]

We have a microscope because my husband does parasitology on fish - can the layman really do effective fecal count tests? I'm all for saving money, but the overall health of my horses is my first priority and I go over and above when it comes to doing things the right way.

We are in Canada, and that is the average cost of a count.

Thanks for the opinions. This youngster had a/b's from birth, has had several episodes where he needed them and developed ulcers at weaning and is now - I hope - on the way to becoming more robust. Just dread putting anything in him that could harm him, but the vet did say the wormer was mild on the stomachs.

[Dalemma]

We have a microscope because my husband does parasitology on fish - can the layman really do effective fecal count tests? I'm all for saving money, but the overall health of my horses is my first priority and I go over and above when it comes to doing things the right way.

We are in Canada, and that is the average cost of a count.

Thanks for the opinions. This youngster had a/b's from birth, has had several episodes where he needed them and developed ulcers at weaning and is now - I hope - on the way to becoming more robust. Just dread putting anything in him that could harm him, but the vet did say the wormer was mild on the stomachs.

My vet actually encouraged me to go ahead and do my own fecal counts.......The McMaster Slide kit even comes with a picture of eggs for horses.

Dalemma

[Dalemma]

Sure, you CAN do this, but then you may think you have to deworm all horses in the sample. You will never learn if you have horses who have high immunity and only need to have tapes and bots treated twice a year, and nothing else. The program can work just fine for that horse, but not work well for the other 1+ horses.

I agree that doing fecals yourself isn't hard, becomes pretty cheap once you buy the microscope, and saves a lot of $$ in the long run.

Well I couldn't afford to run fecals on everyone so doing a herd fecal was the next best thing .....and in my case I had zero count for the group......so your point is mute anyways.....I would suggest it as a starting point only.

Dalemma

[Shiaway]

The other problem with relying on fecals is that you're basically doing clean up duty--that is, once the horse shows a positive fecal, he already has lots of worms doing damage. It's better to prevent worms from getting a strong hold than to try to get rid of them once your horse has such a load.

I'd say if you had pretty good pasture maintenance with just two horses at home and no in/out horses regular fecals and then maybe a more reserved de-worming program might be ok. But you spread your fields with manure and unless you get really dry heat, believe me those worms will survive (you won't believe how robust nematodes are, the baby worms can survive extremly cold temperatures, the eggs can survive bleaching, a non-parasitic form of nematode was the only thing to survive the columbia shuttle explosion...need I say more?). Don't mess around with worms because they sure don't.

[JB]

Well I couldn't afford to run fecals on everyone so doing a herd fecal was the next best thing .....and in my case I had zero count for the group......so your point is mute anyways.....I would suggest it as a starting point only.

Dalemma
My point isn't moot because if you *start* running fecals by mixing, you may never know which horses, if any, are high or low carriers in the long run. Sure, if you've got a known quantity - know which horses are low/no carriers, know which ones often have a high enough load, etc, then if you do a mixed herd fecal that shows low/zero, then you're good. But if the count shows moderately high, you have no idea which horse(s) it was from and have to deworm the whole herd anyway.

It's a tool - not a one-time deal, it's an ongoing tool that is more frequent in the beginning, tapering off to 1-2 times a year after a bit.

The other problem with relying on fecals is that you're basically doing clean up duty--that is, once the horse shows a positive fecal, he already has lots of worms doing damage. It's better to prevent worms from getting a strong hold than to try to get rid of them once your horse has such a load.
If you're doing them smartly, you're never allowing a damaging load to build up. You start with a known entity - properly dewormed horse. If it was ivermectin, than at 9 weeks you check him again. If he's got a high enough count, then he's only 1 week "past due". If he's got a low/no count, then you check again in a few weeks to a month and deworm, or not, based on the results. Done correctly, you're checking the load right about the time you'd just "by the calendar" deworm again - no harm no foul :)

[Black Points]

Dalemma,

Where did you get your McMaster slides? I tried to find some and they seemed to be quite expensive. Also, do you centrifuge your fecal samples before you "read" them?

I've been doing my own fecals with just a microscope slide and coverslip but just bought a centrifuge. I have 7 horses to do and decided that it would be cheaper in the long run to do them myself. Plus I can do them whenever and deworm as needed whenever.

TIA,

Mary in western NY
http://www.BPEquine.com

[Foxtrot's]

If the home job is as accurate as the lab job, this would interest me. My horses are a very closed herd, no in or outs, and I have always wormed religiously.
Centrifuge - how much was that?

Thanks.

[Dalemma]

I got mine out of Washington State........I'm in B.C. cost me about $80.00........so yes a bit expensive.........and no the instructions do not say to use a centrifuge.....it is a kit form which comes with two mixing vials and some syringes. I will see if I can find them on line for you.

I got a second hand microscope for $100.00

http://www.vetslides.com/precisionslides.html

Dalemma

[Dalemma]

Dalemma,

Where did you get your McMaster slides? I tried to find some and they seemed to be quite expensive. Also, do you centrifuge your fecal samples before you "read" them?

I've been doing my own fecals with just a microscope slide and coverslip but just bought a centrifuge. I have 7 horses to do and decided that it would be cheaper in the long run to do them myself. Plus I can do them whenever and deworm as needed whenever.

TIA,

Mary in western NY
http://www.BPEquine.com

If you are not using the McMasters slides then you are only doing a qualitative not a quantative study.

[Daydream Believer]

Cool! I've been looking for something like that fecal kit! I can do fecals at night and see who really needs wormed. My only "hassle" is collecting individual manure as some of my horse live out in herds. I have all the lab equipment already as I'm set up here to collect and ship semen.

[Thomas_1]

I use sampling to help inform of the optimum times for rotational worming.

But horses always have worms to some extent and you'll never eliminate the requirement to use worming products. When I worm, everything on the premises is done though. No point doing just a single horse if you want to control the worm life cycle.

With just 2 horses I'd suggest you're not likely to save a lot of money.

But why are you doing them every 2 months though?

I'd have thought you could knock it back to quarterly quite safely.

[Dawn&Reno]

So what's a general estimate on how much it would cost to get all of the equipment you'd need to do your own fecals?

A centrifuge is fairly necessary, correct?

So a microscope, centrifuge, and McMaster kit?

I am very lucky in that I have access to incredibly cheap fecals. Most people could mail their samples to my vet and have them run cheaper than they could just driving them to their own vet. But it's incredibly out of my way to go to that office now. And I haven't price checked at the more local vets. Plus, I just think it'd be cool to be able to run fecals whenever I wanted to without having to worry about cost, driving, time, etc...

[JB]

No point doing just a single horse if you want to control the worm life cycle.

If a given horse has a low/no count, why deworm him just because you're doing other horses who have a high enough count?

Really, some horses are very good at keeping their parasite population down to a bare minimum all on their own. Treating them for tapeworms and bots is about all you need to do since they aren't reliable when it comes to fecals.

[Black Points]

Dalemma,

Thank you, I just placed an order with Chalex in WA.

I also bought a used microscope on Craig's list. Make sure it has a mechanical stage.

Mary in western NY
http://www.BPEquine.com

[nappingonthejob]

You do NOT need a centrifuge. Here's a good article from The Horse about DIY fecal egg counts.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5193&src=fav

[jaimebaker]

Has anybody used this kit?? This one comes with the solution and everything where the McAlister does not.

http://www.farmsteadhealth.com/microscope.html

I've had a microscope since May and just haven't had the time or money to get the fecal kit. Just wondering which one would be better/easier.

[Foxtrot's]

Thanks, everyone.

Here the recommended worm schedule is every two months on rotation.

I feel equipped to go talk to the vet now. Actually, it is not the cost of the worming vs. fecal count that is my priority. It is because I have had such a devil of a time with this horse and his tummy since he was born very frail, I am reluctant to put anything in there that could mess with his gut. He seems nice and healthy now and I am banking on the fact that as he is getting older he will become more robust. He is seventeen months.

Doing these little things myself gives me a great deal of satisfaction as long as I don't pretent to be a mini-vet and can get reliable results, and we do have a microscope.

[JB]

Has anybody used this kit?? This one comes with the solution and everything where the McAlister does not.

http://www.farmsteadhealth.com/microscope.html

I've had a microscope since May and just haven't had the time or money to get the fecal kit. Just wondering which one would be better/easier.

That's the setup I have :yes: It's very nice.

[rcloisonne]

Spreading manure on a small acreage is just asking for parasite infestation. :eek:

Do your horses a favor and compost it or have it removed.

[JB]

In the Winter, or mild climates, sure. But since (I think) it takes temperatures of just 85*F or so to kill parasites, it's not necessarily a bad idea in July and August, depending of course where you live

[Foxtrot's]

er, excuse me - it does get composted and spread - but with horses on a small pasture for thirty years, I said I could not guarantee no eggs. I attempt to take excellent care of my pasture.

[Dalemma]

er, excuse me - it does get composted and spread - but with horses on a small pasture for thirty years, I said I could not guarantee no eggs. I attempt to take excellent care of my pasture.

I do much the same on my small acreage........I compost and spread in the fall after horses come off pasture. I think it has a lot to do with how you manage your entire farm not just your pastures.

Dalemma

[JB]

It depends on how you compost as well. You have to get it hot enough to actually kill the buggers.

[Dalemma]

Yup I did know that.........we do work ours, turn and flipping it and when doing so we have so much steam that sometimes its hard to see the pile.......so I am pretty sure the composting is doing its job.

Dalemma

[Foxtrot's]

This is true, but it is hard to deal with microscopic eggs - best we can do is minimize.

[mjmvet]

Nappingonthejob - really nice article. Thanks for the reference. I used to get TheHorse magazine...not sure what happened to it...=) I think I'll start doing these 'in house', as our reference lab doesn't do them.

[Samigator]

Sorry if this is hijacking, but I had a couple of questions that are brought up by this thread.

I've been contemplating my worming program in the past few months- for those of you doing your own fecals, do most of the kits come with instructions on how to prepare the samples and assemble the slides? I'm assuming they all come with photos of the common parasites? I have access to a microscope and having taken microbio classes, I would think I'd have a good chance at being successful at doing my own fecals, but really wondering if all of the kits contain sufficient instructions. ?? I also have access to very good human-lab techs who do this type of thing regularly, so I'm sure they could help, but I'd like to be at least mostly self-sufficient.

Also, for those of you doing quarterly worming, what rotation do you use? I had been doing q2mo worming as well, but am dropping back to quarterly or maybe less if I start doing my own fecals. The rotation I have seen is:

Winter: Panacur Power Pack
Spring: Quest or Equimax
Summer: Pyrantel
Fall: Equimax

Is there a way to get around using the Panacur power pack? That's a spendy and very inconvenient worming method for your average boarded-horse owner. Especially for a drug with a lot of resistance, could you substitute a single dose of pyrantel?

Sorry again if this is hijacking, but didn't want to start yet another thread about this. . . lol Thanks!! :D

[JB]

Samigator, yes, if you're buying a starter kit for doing fecals yourself, there is, from what I've seen, including the site listed above, a picture guide to the eggs.

Your rotation - good except for the pyrantel *unless* you know, via fecals, you don't have pyrantel-resistance parasites.

A single dose of pyrantel is not even in the same ballpark as a "power pack". You're talking 1 single dose of one chemical, vs double-dosing another chemical for 5 days in a row. The PP gets encysted strongyles. Your ONLY other option is Quest.

[Samigator]

A single dose of pyrantel is not even in the same ballpark as a "power pack". You're talking 1 single dose of one chemical, vs double-dosing another chemical for 5 days in a row. The PP gets encysted strongyles. Your ONLY other option is Quest.

So what do you recommend as a quarterly rotation? I know that a single dose of Pyrantel isn't as good as the Panacur power pack, but was just looking for an alternative that doesn't require administration 5 days in a row (I have horses at two separate barns and work full time in various schedules- thus is very challenging to get all of them 5 days in a row), and I figure pyrantel might be more effective in a single dose than fenbendazole is in a single dose.

[JB]

Both pyrantel and fenbendazole have roughly the same resistance issues. The key is whether *your* particular horses carry resistance parasites, and you must do a fecal before and after using it to know that.

I can't recommend a quarterly rotation for you because it depends on your environment :) Closed-herd horses who have high immunity don't need deworming nearly as often as those who travel and who have poor parasite immunity. There isn't much wrong with your rotation, really, other than possibly the pyrantel. If the Summer is hot and dry, and manure is taken care of, you might not even need to do anything in the Summer. You do need to do tapeworms twice a year, so 2 Equimax is desirable. It may be that that, along with 1 Power Pack or Quest is fine for you.

[Samigator]

Both pyrantel and fenbendazole have roughly the same resistance issues. The key is whether *your* particular horses carry resistance parasites, and you must do a fecal before and after using it to know that.

I can't recommend a quarterly rotation for you because it depends on your environment :) Closed-herd horses who have high immunity don't need deworming nearly as often as those who travel and who have poor parasite immunity. There isn't much wrong with your rotation, really, other than possibly the pyrantel. If the Summer is hot and dry, and manure is taken care of, you might not even need to do anything in the Summer. You do need to do tapeworms twice a year, so 2 Equimax is desirable. It may be that that, along with 1 Power Pack or Quest is fine for you.


Thanks. :) Yes, I would have to test my specific horses to be sure on the resistance. We have PROLONGED deep freezes with snow cover (probably 4 solid months of the year), and in the summers we have hot (80's-90's) humid, but not excessively rainy weather for 1-2 months. So we probably have some good parasite killing weather those times of the year, leaving the spring and fall to be the most important for good de-worming, hence the ivermectin products at those times of year. The horses are in mostly closed herds- exposed to a new horse usually less than yearly. And manure not spread on the pastures. Unfortunately I don't have control over the entire herd at either location, so I can't control the worming schedule for the others. So, that being said fecals are a good option, hence I want to do my own. Thanks for the recommendations. :)

[JB]

Summer will be your best chance at killing, but Winter isn't - those suckers can take a LOT of cold for a long time. However, snow cover makes it much harder for the horse to pick up parasites, so that's a help.

[Samigator]

Just ordered a McMaster kit and it sounds pretty easy reading the article on The Horse. :D I'm excited to get started!

One question though, for those doing your own fecals, where do you get your solution? Can I buy it at a local farm/fleet store or from my vet's office or do you have to order it online?

Thanks!

[Dalemma]

I buy mine from my vet.

Dalemma

[Samigator]

okay thanks. I called my vet and they're ordering me a gallon for $16. I think that's a pretty good deal based on the online prices I've seen, plus not having to pay shipping. Can't wait to get my kit!

[starkissed]

I agree, don't mix them.

Doing the exam is a good idea- separately on each horse. Then you know where they are. If they are both positive you will have to do some worming and through that you will realize that your pastures are contaminated.

I am surprised the test is so expensive. I think the vet here charges $20/horse. But I have some ties to a vet and they do it at cost for me, which is around $10.

[Samigator]

okay, sorry to hijack again, but I have a question for you self FEC testers. I did my first tests today on 2 of my horses, one of whom had only been wormed 4 weeks ago with ivermectin, so I expected to see nothing, the other was 8 weeks out from ivermectin, so also didn't think I'd find much if anything. Of course I couldn't get the one who is 4 months out from his last worming to poop on command for me. Funny how that works. ;)

Well I didn't find anything that was convincingly an egg, but I'm not sure I really would recognize one if I saw one. Mostly because, while I know what shape they are and basically what they look like, I have no idea how big they would show up in 10x magnification. there were lots of little round things that I think were just debris. Nothing that looked obviously like the pictures, and most of the little round things I saw were tiny on 10x. I am pretty sure I had the gridlines as focused as could be and saw lots of air bubbles, so I think I was focused in the right plane. Also, there was lots of debris, not so clean as it looks in the pictures, lol. I know they say that small strongyle eggs are supposed to be about 90 microns long, but I have no idea how big that is on a 10x field.

So, how much of the field does a small strongyle egg take up on 10X (with 10X occular lens as well)?? Thanks!