Going Broke - And running out of feed choices! Update, Bad News, see new thread [Archive]

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 11, 2010, 06:20 PM

I'm practically at my wits end with my picky eater. Here is a list of the feeds that he will not eat (all tried in the last 6 weeks time span:
Blue Seal Sentinel Senior
Blue Seal Trotter
Blue Seal Hay Stretcher
Seminole Senior
Triple Crown Complete
Triple Crown Senior
Blue Seal Vintage Racer

I have not tried yet (because he would not eat them last year)
Purina Senior
Nutrena Senior
Nutrena Safe Choice

Next on the list is:
Seminole Wellness Senior.

I wish I knew WHAT it is that he is objecting to in the feeds. He will eat horse treats like there is no tomorrow, loved the shredded carrots tonight (but not when they were in his feed tub with the feed).

I even let him choose, I go in with 3 small buckets of different feeds, and whichever he takes a bit of and doesn't spit out, goes in the feed tub. Then he eats about 1/2 pound (one pint container) and then quits.

He really needs a complete feed, as he cannot eat hay, and the grass is dead as a doornail due to this arctic weather.

I'm even wondering if it would be bad if I put him on a fresh veggie and fruit diet instead of these commercial feeds?

Any ideas?

Oh, and top dressing the feeds does not work, I've tried.

fivehorses

Jan. 11, 2010, 06:39 PM

what about beet pulp and supplementing his mineral/vits in that?
Or, soaked alfalfa cubes with supplemental vit/mineral.

Seems he doesn't like his grain, which would signal to me ulcers.

I have a picky eater and just went on the ulcergard regime for the month. He is still picky, but better.
He usually eats his grain throughout the night, I am sure much to the chagrin of his stable mates. He also eats his hay all night, while everyone else is cleaned up. The other horses must get so po'd at him to still have food at his disposal.

Anyhow, I'd think ulcers or I'd try beet pulp or alf/timothy cubes soaked or all of them combined with supps added. Can he have access to his food without others coming in and gobbling it up? Some, like my old guy are just not hoovers and like to eat at their leisure.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 11, 2010, 07:31 PM

Thanks, I guess the vet needs a call tomorrow. I really thought it was just the change in formula on the Blue Seal Senior, maybe the timing was just a coincidence, and I have been jumping throught hoops for the wrong reason.

All 3 horses are fed in their stalls so they can eat in peace, but he honestly will just walk away from the feed tub and gaze out the stall door when he is done, whether there is feed in the tub or not. So, I give him at least 30 minutes to eat what he will, and then turn them all back out. They are all fed 4-5 times a day.

He does not like soaked alfalfa cubes either, tried that. Not sure about the beet pulp, I will have to check with the vet, he is on a sort of restricted fiber type of diet, can't risk him eating anything that could cause another impaction.

I'm sitting here doing internet research on fresh veggie diets for horses, not a lot of information out there.

TrueColours

Jan. 11, 2010, 07:41 PM

I know this doesnt help much, but one of my broodmares is identical to what you are going through

As of 3 days ago, she is convinced that everything in her feed tub has been poisoned. She will pick out the carrots, peer down at the rest of it, sigh and go and stand in the corner wondering when it is a) go out time or b) bed time

On bad weather days if everyone is in all day, she *might* ve finished by dinner time - sometimes not. Dinner gets dumped on top of breakfast and *usually* by morning she has picked through and eaten everything in there even though it takes all night to do so

She is also convinced the hay is now poisonous as well, even though I have deliberately set aside 200+ bales of the hay she gobbled up last summer just for her and her alone - she will take one piece, roll it around and spit it out and go and stand in the corner once again. But again - when the lights are turned off, unless the mice are eating it, she will break down and eat 2-3 flakes of it overnight

She does this at this point in her pregnancy every single time and it drives me mad for the next 4 1/2 months

I have tried buying bottles of molasses to mix in with her feed and sometimes that works but not always. I have them on the Buckeye Feeds and will now be going to buy the Unbeetable or the Race N Win which is a very heavy molasses concentration to mix in there to try and entice her to eat, but I have found its hit and miss. It will work for a few days and then she backs off that as well.

AT least in my case I know she will eat it through the night, she doesnt gobble it down - it takes her the full 10-12 hours to go through everything so eventually she is eating everything that is being fed to her

Good luck - other than a heavy molasses based sweet feed mixed in thats about the only suggestion that I do have for you ...

Jan. 11, 2010, 07:42 PM

Start with a handful of alfalfa pellets, or a handful of soaked beet pulp. If one of those works, work up from there.

Add either a vit/min supplement (Dynamite is quite palatable, and among the less $$ supps) or a ration balancer (Progressive Nutrition has fenugreek in it, smells YUMMY, and is an appetite stimulant).

deltawave

Jan. 11, 2010, 07:50 PM

Hay stretcher or alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, plain oats and flax seed might get you somewhere, maybe add rice bran and something like Accel which I've found 100% of horses like. Let him pick at the dead grass--it won't hurt him. Why can't he have hay?

InstigatorKate

Jan. 11, 2010, 07:54 PM

Soaked alfalfa pellets (rabbit food)?
I also have heard picky eaters go crazy for Fenugreek and sprinkling that on their feed can make them relish whatever you are giving them.
Would dengie be an option?

When my guy was on stall rest, I cut out all grain. He got carrots, apples, turnips, sweet potatoes, grapes, and bananas cut up 2x/day. About 2 cups total each time in order to mix in his supplements and meds. I think I found something where you could also feed avocado ($$), lettuce, and a few other things as well.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 11, 2010, 08:19 PM

He cannot eat hay due to ileal hypertrophy, a thickening of the walls of the ileum (where the small intestine empties into the cecum). He had colic surgery for it in October of 2008. No hay of any type or risk another impaction. He can eat all the pasture grass he wants (dead or alive) and is on 24x7 turnout, and grazing fine, even on the brown crunchy grass.

The Triple Crown Senior that I just bought has fenugreek (it was also in the Seminole Senior and TC Complete), that does not seem to entice him to eat.

He didn't like the hay stretcher at all, it actually made him mad that it was in his feed tub, and he started pawing and digging and acting almost colicky, then when I took it out of the tub, he settled back down. That was very strange.

IK, did you taste test each of those fruits and vegetables one by one first?

TC, it is strangely encouraging to me that I am not the only horse owner on the planet that has a horse that just doesn't like his food. I think he is still hungry, as he begs for treats, and snarfs those down (peppermint flavor treats and NickerMakers). I wish they made a feed that smells and tastes like the NickerMakers as he loves those! (and yes, I have crushed them up and tried mixing with various feeds, and he won't eat it because the feed is still in there - but he sure will snarf them up on their own).

Texarkana

Jan. 11, 2010, 09:01 PM

I've been following your horse's feed saga. I feel for you!

I know you've probably heard this a million times, but for peace of mind I'd want the vet going over him with a fine tooth comb-- especially his GI tract-- to be SURE something isn't bothering him.

Otherwise, one product I thought of was alfalfa meal. It shouldn't cause any risk of impaction. It is messy and most animals won't eat it alone, but maybe you can use it as a "starter mash" to create your own concoction to get calories/vitamins/minerals/protein into him. Add a vit/min supplement, carrots, apples, flavorings he likes, oil or rice bran powder, etc.

Your feed stores may need to special order it, but it shouldn't be expensive. Although I'd hate for him to turn up his nose at that, too!

Best of luck. I know if it were me I'd be tearing my hair out.

TrueColours

Jan. 11, 2010, 09:10 PM

Just thought of something else ...

Check with your feed store and see if they have the roasted crushed soybeans or roasted soybean meal

Its around the 30% protein mark and 18-20% fat area and a friend of mine feeds that and all the hay they can eat and they look fabulous. Ive also used the soybean meal with those that need some extra weight put on as well

Might be worth a try if the feed store will give you 5 lbs to try so you dont need to buy a whole 75 lb bag of the stuff to find he doesnt like that either! Since they generally will bag it in house, they should be able to give you a few lbs to see what he thinks of it

Good luck!~

pines4equines

Jan. 11, 2010, 09:15 PM

My old mare was like this and would NOT eat anything. And she hardly ate any hay. But she loved Strategy? Who knew? I did like you did, tried every cotton pickin' feed in the world and then I threw my hands in the air and said then you can eat Strategy. Certainly it was a lot cheaper than the other stuff I was buying and I'd had it. Well, don't you know she plowed through that stuff? Not sure what you can do since you can't feed hay but maybe if you can pique her appetite with Strategy, maybe she'll go after the alfalfa cubes or some sort of Dengi hay or whatever is allowed.

suzyq

Jan. 11, 2010, 10:07 PM

Have you tried mixing in applesauce? I mix in one of those snack size tubs for each feeding, works a charm.

Hampton Bay

Jan. 11, 2010, 10:34 PM

Have you tried peppermint oil or crushed mints? What about leaving everyone in their stalls for a couple hours to give him more time to finish his dinner?

The Seminole Wellness Sr smells just divine. It actually has mint in it, and it smells all minty. If he's prone to choke though, make sure to soak it somewhat. It used to have beet pulp shreds or pellets in it, and I think it still does.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 12:40 AM

The Seminole Wellness Sr smells just divine. It actually has mint in it, and it smells all minty. If he's prone to choke though, make sure to soak it somewhat. It used to have beet pulp shreds or pellets in it, and I think it still does.

He does like peppermints (although not top dressed on any of the other feeds I have tried), so I will call the closest Seminole dealer to me tomorrow and see if he has a bag I can pick up. After calling the vet first of course.

The killer is having to buy an entire 50 pound bag only to discover that he doesn't like it. Or, as has happened, I get a sample, he loves it, I buy a 50 pound bag, and two days later he says "nah - changed my mind again".

Of course the other two are loving the buffet - they will eat ANYTHING, and love that they get something novel mixed in with their regular feed as I try to get rid of whatever he no longer likes.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 12:49 AM

What about leaving everyone in their stalls for a couple hours to give him more time to finish his dinner?

Tried that a couple of times, and he didn't eat another bite. It's like he stops eating (if he even tries to eat it).

Three hours ago I went down to blanket and give them a small meal. I went into his stall with three buckets, each with a different feed, he turned his nose up at all 3 of them. I put in two handfuls of shredded carrots, some NickerMakers, and some peppermint horse treats, and he gobbled them down and licked the feed tub while the other two finished eating (which was a combo of the 3 feeds he would not eat). So, it's not like he doesn't have an appetite, he just doesn't want the feed. Would ulcers cause behavior like that?

InstigatorKate

Jan. 12, 2010, 12:52 AM

IK, did you taste test each of those fruits and vegetables one by one first?

I thought you meant me, and yes, I did taste each of them first, LOL! The turnip and raw sweet potato were surprisingly good. I knew he liked apples and carrots. I tried banana and he wasn't crazy about it, but would eat it if mixed with the other stuff. The sweet potato was a hit right off the bat. It's now a favorite treat. The same with grapes. The turnip I had to convince him to try by mixing it in with the other, but he'll now eat it separately.

GatoGordo

Jan. 12, 2010, 01:56 AM

Can you get Pennfield feeds? Fibregized smells FABULOUS (I'm tempted to try some myself some days!), and I've seen a lot of horses eat it who were turning up their noses at other feeds. I don't know how great it is as a long-term sole source of nutrition, but it's low starch and may get him into the mindset of eating again.

Is he allowed to have denji/dengue/however you spell it or chopped forage?

What about dry alfalfa pellets (they're about the size of cat food)? Some horses don't like wet food.

I like the idea of asking for a small "starter" bag.

TrueColours, I think your mare needs some mint-chocolate chip ice cream! :D

horse-loverz

Jan. 12, 2010, 04:55 AM

Have you tried top dressing in cocosoya oil?? When my guy got a bit finicky when we were between places I tried this and he scarfed his food down. The other horses were jealous and would lick the pan when he was done for the residue.

TrueColours

Jan. 12, 2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hampton Bay
What about leaving everyone in their stalls for a couple hours to give him more time to finish his dinner?

Tried that a couple of times, and he didn't eat another bite. It's like he stops eating (if he even tries to eat it).

Same with my mare. You can leave the entire barn in for 4-5-6 hours and they are ticked off they cant go out and she is standing in her corner staring at the "poison" in her feed bucket ... :rolleyes: ...

Have you tried top dressing in cocosoya oil?? When my guy got a bit finicky when we were between places I tried this and he scarfed his food down.

Tried that on my mare. Convinced her even more we were out to poison her and wouldnt even touch the carrots in there anymore ...

TrueColours, I think your mare needs some mint-chocolate chip ice cream!

HECK of an idea!!! Why didnt *I* think of that?!

For what its worth, my mare has been like this since Day 1. She never finishes breakfast and takes all night to eat dinner. The only time this changes is once she has foaled and then for the next few months after that, she will lick her feed bucket clean. But even before breeding her (for the first 3 years I had her) she wouldnt eat more than a mouthful or two for breakfast and would leave the rest. Not such a big deal now, but in the summer I need to cover up her leftover feed so the flies dont host a convention on whats left in there

Right now she is in "decent" weight but as she is due in mid May, now is the time I would start adding more feed in there but forget it - I cant even get her to eat what is in there now - I cant even think of increasing the volume at all!

And my biggest problem is I want to increase the Growth (16% protein / 8% fat, specially formulated for broodmares and young stock) and decrease the Trifecta (12% protein / 14% fat - molasses based pellet) but she doesnt like the Growth as much as she does the Trifecta, so if I start pulling the Trifecta out of there to increase the Growth, she wont even humor me by eating a mouthful. She just carefully picks out the carrots and leaves all the grain and she isnt an apple eater either, so mixing applesauce in woujld just give me a feed tub full that she wouldnt touch

TKR

Jan. 12, 2010, 09:24 AM

Since you have access to Purina - try some Ultium. I use it half and half on my elderly bunch and everyone loves it. I suggested it to a lady who also had a picky eater and had gone through alot of trial and error and it worked for her. High fat content, not sure about the fiber. I mix it with Senior and use it for anyone needing a bit of weight. Amazing stuff! I would check his GI tract as well, especially for ulcers. Good luck! Maybe the feed store has a broken bag and would let you have a little or sell the bag for less since you have tried so many.

PennyG

NCSue

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:16 AM

I had a geriatric mare sent to me because she wasn't thriving. Previous barn had gone through a list of feeds similiar to yours and kept throwing more and more feed at her. Took me one day to realize she didn't like the taste, texture, or whatever and simply wasn't eating. I switched her to pellets. Started out soaking them at first and that took care of the problem. Strategy is one that is a complete feed. There are others. I have had some very nice feed representatives over the years. Call the company and tell them your saga. They may be willing to send you small amount of samples.

I, too, now have a horse in the barn with the same condition. He has always -- up to this last hospitalization -- been a very easy keeper and willing to eat anything so I'm hopeful he won't be difficult.

I feel for you. It's not easy.

cottagefarm

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:25 AM

x-rab

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:26 AM

I have never had a horse turn it down. We bought it as a treat and supplement for some retirees and they would all chase me down to get to it. I am not sure how wide spread the distribution is for Pennfolds, but it is available here in the Mid-Atlantic area.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:46 AM

Thank you all for your support and suggestions.

The closest Seminole feed distributor does not carry the Buckeye anymore, he said it didn't sell enough for him to justify carrying it. I can check with the other dealers in the county to see if they have it if I need to.

Just wanted to give you an update, last night for the midnight feed, I crushed up about 8 soft peppermints, tossed it in with 1/2 scoop of the Blue Seal Senior (which does smell a bit, um, like fish now) shook it up and tossed it into his feed tub, didn't even do the "what would you like your Highness" routine, and he ate it all. Did the same for breakfast, and once again all the feed was gone before the others finished their breakfast.

I'll keep that up and see if it continues to work. I think perhaps the peppermints (which he picks out the big pieces first) help to coat his tongue with the peppermint flavor, and the smell helps to mask the smell of the feed. I really have been very happy with the Blue Seal, and it would make my life soo much easier if he would just go back to eating it. And if I have to resort to "sugar coating" it with peppermints, that's fine, as long as it works! Not sure why it is working now, when it didn't work a few weeks ago. Silly horse.

So, I'm just crossing my fingers that this works for longer than a day or two.

And now the other two horses get a "treat" as they get to finish up the feed that the little guy didn't want to eat.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:49 AM

If you're nr a Seminole store you should be able to get Buckeye.
They have a new product called EQ8 that has pre and pro biotics. The cereal products are also heat processed for easy digestibility.
I may be able to get you a sample if you would like?

Thanks, if he starts to refuse to eat the feed with peppermints, I'll PM you about how to get a sample. Maybe if I just contact the company they can send me one? I know they used to have sample sizes that they would give away at the trade shows years back.

Where do you pick up your Buckeye feed, the dealer in Lowel doesn't carry it anymore.

ponyjumper4

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:50 AM

Strategy is one that is a complete feed.

Strategy is not a complete feed. It doesn't not have the fiber content to be classified as a complete feed.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:53 AM

Going to add Pennfield to my list, apparently I can get it here at Larsen's.

eqsiu

Jan. 12, 2010, 11:04 AM

Truecolours, we had a mare that did that for the month before foaling, and she always looked awful for a few months while we got her weigh back up. It was like she was too big and pregnant to be comfy with food taking up abdominal space.

Munchkinsmom, my current mare is picky as well-she won't eat sweet feed! But she loves both Ultium and Strategy, and I had good luck with Nutrena XTN. After you rule out ulcers or something medically wrong, those might be things to try.

tabula rashah

Jan. 12, 2010, 12:23 PM

You can get Peppermint (http://www.uckele.com/equine/ezecommerce.cfm?fuseaction=productdetail&productid=450) flavoring made specifically to add to horses' feed.

NCSue

Jan. 12, 2010, 12:26 PM

Strategy is not a complete feed. It doesn't not have the fiber content to be classified as a complete feed.

You're right. My mistake. Thanks for catching it. :)

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 03:55 PM

You can get Peppermint (http://www.uckele.com/equine/ezecommerce.cfm?fuseaction=productdetail&productid=450) flavoring made specifically to add to horses' feed.

Thank you so much for posting that! I'm going to order some and give it a try! Sure sounds easier than crushing up peppermints.

HandsomeBayFarm

Jan. 12, 2010, 04:09 PM

Did I miss it where you tried to treat an ulcer or two?

You have my horse. Well my horse last summer.

Papaya is the best. Switched to Aloe Vera from Wal mart and did ok too.

He does like the Seminole Wellness Senior better than all the others. But if he is off his food then he gets the dose of Papaya and then starts to gobble.

Leather

Jan. 12, 2010, 04:12 PM

Can you get Kent products at all?

Kent has a complete feed called Dynasty Pride, that comes in large extruded nuggets. They're the same size as horse treats, so that's what I use them for. The horses think they're crack!

http://www.kentequine.com/getdoc/c96cb67a-cd7c-4fc5-9c5b-9620962707a0/7658-pdf.aspx

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 05:18 PM

Damnit! Another failed experiment. I just came in from attempting to feed him, and he picked about half of the peppermints around, sucked on a few of the feed nuggets, and then just stood there looking at me. I tossed in a handful of shredded carrots, and he picked at those too - because they were TOUCHING the feed he does not like! Yet, he snarfed down the treats I gave him afterwards - I cannot figure him out.

I'm getting a mental image of me in the truck with 30 bags of different feeds, trying each and every one.

Calling the vet in the AM, which I should have done this AM, except I thought I had a solution to the problem.

No Kent dealers in a 50 mile radius - at least not from the search dealer function on their website.

Bogie

Jan. 12, 2010, 05:24 PM

The picky eater in my barn eats Ultium. At least she eats enough of it to keep her healthy! Its a high calorie feed so you can feed a bit less than other complete feeds.

Since you have access to Purina - try some Ultium. I use it half and half on my elderly bunch and everyone loves it. I suggested it to a lady who also had a picky eater and had gone through alot of trial and error and it worked for her. High fat content, not sure about the fiber. I mix it with Senior and use it for anyone needing a bit of weight. Amazing stuff! I would check his GI tract as well, especially for ulcers. Good luck! Maybe the feed store has a broken bag and would let you have a little or sell the bag for less since you have tried so many.

PennyG

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 05:40 PM

So here is the part I don't get - I check the ingredients on all these different feeds, and aside from the fact that they must get them from different sources, they all seem to have the same basic stuff in them. And the fact that the other two eat anything I toss in their buckets, I just don't get why he won't eat any of it. Sorry, just venting.

Hampton Bay

Jan. 12, 2010, 05:50 PM

Have you tried just stopping with the treats? Maybe he has learned that there is no need to eat his food, because he will just get treats?

Will he eat sweet feed? Maybe try mixing sweet feed in with something else?

Or, what kinds of treats will he eat? Maybe you could use some of the feed to make your own "treats" to put in his bucket.

onthebit

Jan. 12, 2010, 06:41 PM

What works for me every time with a picky eater is to feed with a feedbag. They can't walk away from it to graze, eat hay, look out the window . . . they flat out can't get away from it. I have had to leave a feedbag on one super stubborn horse for a few hours once, but he is the only one that has ever taken more than 30 minutes to give in and eat. On the rare occasion that I have a battle about eating it is often over supplements or medications, not necessarily the food itself, but in the end they eat every last bite. I think the part of the issue is he can simply leave the food and go think about something else, even if it is just standing in his stall looking around.

Just an entirely different line of thought as far as something you could try. You have a very frustrating situation and I feel for you!

KnRponies

Jan. 12, 2010, 08:26 PM

I third the Pennfield Fibregized suggestion. I have an extremely picky older horse who has been through many of the foods on your list (which he eats for a couple months then turns up his nose at) and this is the only feed I have been able to get him to consistently eat. I think it is the "apple nectar" flavoring that they use in all their feeds that smells so good. Years ago, I was able to get a sample bag of one of their feeds, so it may be worth calling them, explaining your issue and seeing if they would help.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 09:18 PM

I'm definitely going to call the vet in the AM and see what she thinks as far as this issue goes. I guess if he checks out medically okay, it might be time for "tough love", either eat or starve, his choice.

I don't know if he would eat a sweet feed, most of the feeds I have tried are all but soaked in molasses (at least that is what they look and smell like) and he won't eat them.

As to treats? He loves the Purina Nicker Makers, the Nutrena apple flavor treats, and the dark pink peppermint treats with the carosel horse on the bag (sorry, can't remember the name of them). And maybe I should stop giving him treats instead of his grain, and he will eat when he is hungry enough, but then again, last year after the surgery when he had not eaten in several days, when he was finally okay'ed to eat and offered food, he still turned his nose up at it, and would not even eat the treats if they were in the same bucket with the feed. Yet he would graze like there was no tomorrow.

And I think I will call a few of these companies and see if free samples are available of some of the feeds that you all suggested that we have not tried yet.

mlranchtx

Jan. 12, 2010, 09:47 PM

After the vet checks him out.....

Why not call all of the feed reps in the area and see if they will make him their "project"?

Maybe try one brand at a time and see if they can get you samples of the feeds the feed store doesn't carry and maybe they have more suggestions?

My local Nutrena guy is awesome and very helpful.

I have also found that my feed stores can get any Purina or Nutrena feed that is made if I request it. They might not stock it but they should be able to get you a bag.

Good luck!

hntrjmprpro45

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:06 PM

We had a horse come in to our barn who was very similar. He would take at least 8-12 hours to eat his grain (if he even finished). He never got "excited" like the other horses at feeding time but we stuck with our feed (Nutrena Safechoice) and over time he simply decided that eating was a good thing. The first 2 weeks it would take 8-12 hours, then the next week only 6, then the next week 4. Probably after a month and a half he was eating his grain like a normal horse in 30 minutes.

I think what really helped him was he put him in a stall next to one of our "greedy" horses. Whenever it was feeding time the excitable horse would start neighing/throwing a comotion, etc. and the picky eater would notice (like "hey whats the big deal?"). Over time it was like he figured out that grain was something to be excited about. Now he neighs like the rest of them when they hear the grain cans rattling!

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:48 PM

This may turn into a "feeding by feeding" blog, as I try to think out loud to you folks.

I just got back in from blanketing/feeding. Once again, I went into his stall with 3 buckets, put them down, said "pick one". He stuck his nose into each bucket, ate nothing, then went and put his head in his empty feed tub. So, I took the buckets out, mixed up the feed for the other two, and tossed a few carrots and peppermint treats into his bucket, so he would not start digging because the other two were eating. Of course he finished first. So, on a whim, I tossed in a handful of the Blue Seal - and he gobbled it up. I'm thinking "cool, he is hungry", so I toss in a bit more. He ate about 5 more mouthfuls, and then stopped.

Sign me "Still Stumped in Florida".

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 12, 2010, 10:50 PM

I like the idea of contacting the feed reps, already sent off an email to the Pennfield rep, and going to do the same with the rest of them. What the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained, obviously my trial and error method is not working.

Cherry

Jan. 13, 2010, 12:45 AM

I would talk to your vet first. It could be your horse is not feeling well and that is killing his appetite.

It seems to me that feeding hay stretcher pellets or alfalfa pellets would be a good first place to start. I know you said he doesn't like the Blue Seal hay stretcher pellets, but there is always alfalfa pellets or Nutrena makes a different formulation of hay stretcher pellets which is also sold under the Agway brand name--they are one in the same pellet. :yes: ;) Perhaps your guy will like that better.

It occurs to me that you tried throwing too many different kinds of feed at him in too short of a time. Whenever you change feeds you need about ten days of mixing old and new feeds together before your horse's digestive system becomes accustomed to the new feed. When you throw too many different kinds of feed at the horse too quickly you run the risk of the horse developing colic.....

You have to get him eating something and in short order otherwise he could develop other health problems. So, I would start with the hay situation, first and foremost!

If I were you I would find the feed brand that is most easily obtained and check with the local rep, that way when you find something he'll eat you don't run the risk of being left without feed at some point. Invariably when feed is a "special order" screw ups occur and one is left without any feed at all for a period of time. It would be great if the rep could supply you with a few pounds of any given feed until you see if your horse will eat it.

If the horse isn't interested in any of the feed I might be tempted to just add rehydrated beet pulp to the mix and a grain balancer pellet to make sure he's getting enough vitamins and minerals. Added to the hay pellets there's no reason he couldn't live on this forever adding rice bran or something similar to help him hold his weight.

KristiKGC

Jan. 13, 2010, 08:08 AM

First, it could definitely be ulcers. When my boy had the worst ulcers the BM told me he hadn't eaten in days (I was mortified I was told days later). I tried the experiment you are trying offering different feeds. He would sometimes eat a little bit if it smelled good enough. But grain hurt his stomach and he would quickly stop.

It also seems like most of the feeds you have tried are textured. Have you tried pellets? Couldn't hurt to see if that makes a difference.

Bogie

Jan. 13, 2010, 09:20 AM

If the horse isn't interested in any of the feed I might be tempted to just add rehydrated beet pulp to the mix and a grain balancer pellet to make sure he's getting enough vitamins and minerals. Added to the hay pellets there's no reason he couldn't live on this forever adding rice bran or something similar to help him hold his weight.

My horse lives on this quite happily and he's a TB that's a bit of a hard keeper and a tendency toward ulcers.

Dawn&Reno

Jan. 13, 2010, 09:48 AM

You really helped me out with my mare and options to try with her. The peppermint leaves and spearmint leaves made into a 'tea' over her feed has been a lifesaver! Very cheap option to try if it doesn't end up working as well.

What I've noticed is that she'll gobble up her feed with the tea over it. Then I can offer her just plain dry alfalfa cubes, and she'll gobble them up too. This is absolutely unheard of for her. When we were out of hay, she actually ate almost 1 lb of pelleted feed and 1.5 lbs of soaked alfalfa cubes (together). Then she went on to eat 5 lbs of alfalfa cubes dry. That's more feed that this horse has eaten in years! (There was pasture for her to eat as well, so it's not like she was just 'starving' and eating for that reason.) Even now that they have free choice hay again, she'll still eat a couple pounds of dry alfalfa cubes if I offer them to her.

I mix her feed up and sit it in the middle of the drive about 75' from her pasture gate. When I bring her out of the field, she's literally pulling me to get to the feed pan. (Bad behavior yes. But this is one bad behavior I'm happy to see!)

I've also been using the slippery elm with her, but unfortunately haven't been able to give it to her every day. I'm wondering too if maybe her throat isn't irritated and the slippery elm is soothing that? I'm not sure what would be causing throat irritation with her. But it's been a thought. That stuff smells nasty, but she absolutely loves it.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 13, 2010, 10:52 AM

I just got off the phone with the vet, and she recommends that I treat him with ranitidine like I did before the colic surgery (when we thought his recurrent colic episodes were ulcer related). I asked about the Gastroguard, she said she sees faster results with the ranitidine and we can consider the gastroguard if this works. She said don't introduce any new feeds, and to dose him 3 times a day to start, to see if this will help. She said what might have happened is when Blue Seal changed the formula, and he stopped eating that he may have triggered ulcers at that point (due to the empty stomach) and it becomes a viscious cycle from there. Luckily I have enough ranitidine on hand to make it to the weekend when I can get to the vet clinic and pick up another bottle or two (believe it or not, their price is actually lower than Wal-Mart).

The Pennfield rep emailed me back last night at midnight, and said that he thought the Fibregized would be a good choice and they can make a sample bag available. I emailed him back and thanked him and told him we were going to treat for suspected ulcers first. I thought that was very nice of him to reply so quickly to my email.

You really helped me out with my mare and options to try with her. The peppermint leaves and spearmint leaves made into a 'tea' over her feed has been a lifesaver! Very cheap option to try if it doesn't end up working as well.

I'll run that past the vet also, I wonder if the mint leaves help ease any sort of stomach pain, or aid in digestion? I'll have to google it and see.

I'll keep you all posted.

onthebit

Jan. 13, 2010, 11:29 AM

MM I really would try the feedbag approach, it might end up saving you a lot of aggravation!

Alagirl

Jan. 13, 2010, 11:35 AM

I'll run that past the vet also, I wonder if the mint leaves help ease any sort of stomach pain, or aid in digestion? I'll have to google it and see.

I'll keep you all posted.

While mint tea is often used with upset stomachs in people, too much can aggravate any stomach conditions that are caused by irritations in the lining.

Add some Chamomille, that is really soothing for the stomach!

flea_bitten

Jan. 13, 2010, 12:37 PM

ok. frequent lurker here. rarely post, but you have my horses twin!

1. ulcers- go strait to gastro/ulcerguard. it will save you so much time and money in the long run. start with a week at a full tube dose/day and then you can start paring it down. the ranitidine and other antacids are short term and only are effective for a couple of hours. the -guards are buffered and keep the tummy happy for 24 hours. full tube/day is a healing dose, 1/2 tube/day is a continuation of healing dose, 1/4 tube/day preventitive dose

2. turnout and feed from a groundpan. start with small portions and dump out/take away anything that your guy doesn't eat. if at all possible feed him with some friends so there is some "competition". as long as your guy is dominant and there is an established pecking order they will be fine

i also found that if i only fed my mare 2x a day for a while she wanted food each time she ate. when i would try to feed multiple times/day, she became bored (?) with eating

i have had this mare for 9 years and for the first time in those years she is fat and happy and eating! she lives out, grazes continuously and eats on a fenceline with another mare in the same paddock that she is dominant over (other mare eats too, just gets less)

M. O'Connor

Jan. 13, 2010, 12:43 PM

Jan. 13, 2010, 02:52 PM

As an aside, if he has been on a complete feed/grain (rather than hay and grain diet), sometimes they will go through spells where they won't eat for a few days...and then they'll go back to eating it normally.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 13, 2010, 02:55 PM

MM, I just noticed this thread...

Have you heard the term "subclinicial acidosis?"

Read this literature on EquiSure:

http://www.kerx.com/products/EquiShure/

If the symptoms sound like your horse, you may want to have your vet contact KERx and discuss whether it might help in your horse's case.

Thanks! I'll run this past the vet for sure. So far no colic symptoms, but I sure don't want it to get to that point either! Very interesting, and it looks like they put some good research behind the product.

In talking with the vet this AM, she said let's give the rantitidine a try, and if it does improve his eating, we can then go with the gastroguard to speed up the process and get him back to normal.

As to his feeding routine, I feed 3-4 times a day, evenly spaced out, all 3 horses are brought in from 24x7 turnout to eat, so there is no competition for feed. If he does not finish, I remove what is left from his tub.

cottagefarm

Jan. 13, 2010, 07:05 PM

Thanks, if he starts to refuse to eat the feed with peppermints, I'll PM you about how to get a sample. Maybe if I just contact the company they can send me one? I know they used to have sample sizes that they would give away at the trade shows years back.

Where do you pick up your Buckeye feed, the dealer in Lowel

doesn't carry it anymore.

Tried to PM you but it won't allow it.
Its hard for the smaller dealers to compete with the seminole main stores as they have to charge more and most people will just go to the downtown or SR 40 Seminole Store instead.
If you pm me your name I can have a sample bag with your name at the 40 store :)

KristiKGC

Jan. 13, 2010, 07:36 PM

As to his feeding routine, I feed 3-4 times a day, evenly spaced out, all 3 horses are brought in from 24x7 turnout to eat, so there is no competition for feed. If he does not finish, I remove what is left from his tub.

I know this is a long stretch, but a friend of mine has a horse who is a 'picky eater' with regard to the situation. He ate better out of the light blue bucket than the black bucket. If we changed where we fed him so that he could see the horse next to him rather than across from him he ate better. He eats MUCH better if he feels there is competition for his food (real or percieved).

Most people would never go to these lengths, but in your case it may be worth a shot. It certainly couldn't hurt.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 13, 2010, 07:50 PM

Tried to PM you but it won't allow it.
Its hard for the smaller dealers to compete with the seminole main stores as they have to charge more and most people will just go to the downtown or SR 40 Seminole Store instead.
If you pm me your name I can have a sample bag with your name at the 40 store :)

Thanks, I'll hold off on that for a bit, and PM you if I need to try a different feed (meaning that after a few days of ranitidine, if he still turns up his nose at his regular feed). Besides, I need to empty out some of the trash cans of all the other feeds he wouldn't eat first ;). I really appreciate the help!

At 4:30 he got his first dose, and it was sort of cute, he remembered all the dosing from a year ago, and as soon as I held up the syringe, he opened his mouth. What a good boy! Then I gave him some of the Blue Seal, and he ate a little bit of it. I went out and picked the pasture so that he would not be distracted by me in the barn (and begging for treats), and after 30 minutes went back in. He had stopped eating, so I turned them all out. He kept following me around hoping I would go get him a treat, but I resisted.

As to the feed bucket, etc, this is the same bucket he has been eating from in over a year, with the same horses in the same spot for the past 4 years. And it is a light blue round corner feeder. I tried putting in in the black round ground feeder that he used to eat out of before last year, and he had no interest in that at all.

Yes, I did try some pelleted feeds, he didn't like those either, both with and without molasses all over them.

cottagefarm

Jan. 13, 2010, 09:03 PM

Sorry if this has been asked already . Has he been scoped already?
The ranitidine, if it is ulcers ,should help but then it is a case of keeping his gut healthy and gut flora balanced

It's so hard when they can't tell you whats going on.

The only other thing I can think of is a friend alongtime ago who's horse got separation anxiety. They would bring him and his buddies into eat and unless you hung his bucket and the haynet out of the stall so he could see everything he wouldn't touch it!

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 13, 2010, 11:46 PM

If the ranitidine does work, I will speak with the vet about scoping and/or a round of gastroguard and other actions to take to keep his gut healthy, so this doesn't happen again. Her theory is that when he first refused the new formula feed, that he may have started the some ulcers due to an empty stomach. If I had half a brain, I would have called the vet much earlier, and for sure won't let this happen again.

Evening update. He just got his second dose of ranitidine, and a half scoop of Blue Seal Senior, and a few baby carrot tossed in. He ate most of it (all but about two handfuls). I kept them all closed in their stalls (as the other two gluttons finished way before he did), and walked around outside the barn again so he would not be looking to me for treats.

I am guardedly optimistic. Let's see what the AM feed brings.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 14, 2010, 11:10 AM

AM update. Third dose of ranitidine, and he ate all of his breakfast in record time! And it was the Blue Seal Senior! Fingers crossed that this continues to work, and that I heal him up from whatever digestive issues he has.

The Pennfield rep emailed me again this morning, and he also suggested Equishure as an option. I will definitely ask the vet about that when I call her with an update.

cottagefarm

Jan. 14, 2010, 11:30 AM

Good news :)
Hope he continues his progress.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 14, 2010, 02:05 PM

Lunchtime update - *happy dance*. He ate it all, didn't even take his head out of the feed tub! And he doesn't get anolther dose of ranitidine until dinner.

Those of you that suggested ulcer treatments get a big pat on the back, and permission to give me the big "I TOLD YOU SO!"

Still keeping my fingers crossed that this was the root cause of the issue.

TrueColours

Jan. 14, 2010, 06:15 PM

What a terrific update!!!

Hopefully all of his progress will be equally as positive!

Does he have to get the Ranitidine for life or after a course of xx days, do you then take him off of it?

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 14, 2010, 07:42 PM

Dinner update. He ate, but a bit slower, and left one handful in the tub, but then again, I had put in a bit extra. He even ate a few hay stretcher pellets that I hand fed him after dinner was done. Maybe he was not as hungry because he had eaten lunch today. He won't be fed again until midnight (along with another dose of ranitidine), hopefully he will continue to make progress.

I have to ask the vet about how long to keep him on the ranitidine, he was on it for over a year before the colic surgery in 2008. Then he was off it after the surgery up until now. I'll let you know what she says.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 15, 2010, 12:01 AM

Happiness is an empty feed tub! He snarfed down his midnight feed, so hopefully this is the last time I have to post about this topic for this horse!

Well, I will give you all an update on what the vet says about continuing the ranitidine, just to that I can share the knowledge. I can't tell you all how relieved I am right now.

mustangtrailrider

Jan. 15, 2010, 10:33 AM

Yeah! Way to go!

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 15, 2010, 11:16 AM

Now that he is eating again, he is still showing signs that he is not loving the Blue Seal, he eats it, but it takes him longer than the other two to eat it, even though he gets half of what they eat (at least for now). This morning I tossed in a handful of the molasses covered feed, and he loved that (same feed he would not eat before the ranitidine). So, when I call the vet I will ask about that also, as to whether I make him tough it out, or try a switch. Just waiting to finish up my staff meeting call that I am listening to right now.

Foxtrot's

Jan. 15, 2010, 12:35 PM

I know you post her often and are not a 'newbie' horseowner, but perhaps keep him on a smaller ration and more hay will keep him happier and be easier on his tummy. Good hay does wonders.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

Foxtrot, he cannot eat hay due to impaction issues - so feeding him is an extra challenge. For "normal" horses, that is of course the best option. Leave it to me to have the horses that keep the vet's scratching their heads saying "Never seen anything like THAT before", or "Oh, I have read about that, this is the first I have actually seen it". Same with my dogs. I seem to have some sort of weird karma going on.

He is grazing 24x7, eating the dormant grass, and the bits of winter rye that is growing in various spots in the pasture.

At any rate, just got off the phone with the vet, she said to keep him on the 3x a day ranitidine over the weekend, then we will go down to 2x a day for at least a month, then maybe down to 1x a day for another month. Of course if he regresses, we go back to 3x a day, or consider Gastroguard.

llsc

Jan. 15, 2010, 01:17 PM

Can you get Triple Crown Senor? My guys really liked it, even my picky TB mare. I'd add some additional alfalfa pellets, since they are high in calcium and some corn oil which is also good for ulcers.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 15, 2010, 04:47 PM

I have a bag of the TC senior (along with a few other feeds). He didn't like it at all last week, so I have been feeding it to my other two horses as a treat in with their regular feed (small quantities).

He ate lunch fairly well, left about two handfuls of feed in his tub. I'll offer him a bit of the TC senior to see if he has changed his mind about it.

eks

Jan. 15, 2010, 11:31 PM

Try Nutrena XTN..I have never seen a horse turn it down. My horses hated Ultium, but love XTN.

Foxtrot's

Jan. 16, 2010, 12:22 AM

Oh, Munchkin - I must have missed a critical part of your post. Good luck anyway.

ladipus

Jan. 16, 2010, 01:06 AM

I have a horse who does exactly what you're describing...if its just purely being picky and not liking what you have offered...you can try any of Purina's Omolene line of feed-even the pickiest of horses seem to LOVE it...and i believe the Omolene 400 complete advantage is beetpulp based,and has hay/fiber built in...you may want to try the Omolene 200 first-i don't know any horse that would turn it down-and i think i have the pickiest mare on the planet...she can't get enough of it....also Strategy is another tasty choice.

Feed aside...i would give a good probiotic orally for awhile such as Fastrack, or Probios-helps aid digestion,and seems to stimulate their appetite- along w/ an ulcer supplement such as Corta Flx Uguard Solution or Finish Lines u7 gastric aid or Absorbine Pro CMC

you mentioned not being able to eat hay? would/could your horse have some chopped alfalfa forage-triple crown makes a chopped alfalfa that's coated in molasses-most horses love it....or perhaps soaked beetpulp? also another good fiber choice.

ladipus

Jan. 16, 2010, 01:10 AM

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 16, 2010, 01:05 PM

Feed aside...i would give a good probiotic orally for awhile such as Fastrack, or Probios-helps aid digestion,and seems to stimulate their appetite- along w/ an ulcer supplement such as Corta Flx Uguard Solution or Finish Lines u7 gastric aid or Absorbine Pro CMC

you mentioned not being able to eat hay? would/could your horse have some chopped alfalfa forage-triple crown makes a chopped alfalfa that's coated in molasses-most horses love it....or perhaps soaked beetpulp? also another good fiber choice.

I tried all the ulcer supplements last year, he hates them all, won't eat them, or he would for about 5 days and then said "nope, not eating this". He did like the Succeed, but that is not specifically for ulcers, and not cheap!

No, he cannot eat chopped hay either. His impaction was due to ileal hypertrophy, which is a thickening of the walls of the ileum (small intestine), so he has less space to pass feed stuff through to the cecum. When he had the colic surgery, the surgeon did not resect it, as that lowers their chances of recovery/survival, what she did was manually move the impaction (picture squeezing a toothpaste tube), and stitch him back up.

So far he is doing pretty well eating a mix of the Blue Seal Senior, and the Vintage Racer, so I will continue with that for a bit, so that I am not adding fuel to the fire by switching feeds so frequently. I'm just happy that he is eating.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 16, 2010, 05:48 PM

One step forward, 10 steps back. He colicked about 45 minutes ago, good thing I have a birds eye view of the horses from the house. Vet was called, banamine given, and he was back to grazing in 30 minutes. ARG! I'm going to end up with ulcers over this horse.

Good gut sounds and manure output, so who knows what this was about. No feed until morning, the other two horses are not going to be happy about that, but they will live.

He was only mildly interested in the 3PM feeding, so 2 hours later he colicked over it????

Oh, I offered him a tiny bit of the TC Senior at "lunch" and he once again turned his nose up at it. Scratch that off the list.
Let's just hope this is not the start of something worse, I will not put him through another surgery.

rcloisonne

Jan. 16, 2010, 07:40 PM

Mr.GMan

Jan. 16, 2010, 08:03 PM

Hi MM. I hope you have had a successful last couple hours with your guy. I have 2 ulcery horses, one who colics with them and yet scarfs every ounce of food down, and the other is your textbook case. I had both my horses on the Equishure for the last couple of months. I will say it has helped my mare's stomach quite a bit. I have switched to Succeed as the gelding apparently had quite a bad case of ulcers before the equishure regimen and didn't seem to help him as much. I am on the 3rd week of ulcerguard for him and so far I see a light at the end of the tunnel. I decided to go ulcerguard as opposed to ranitidine because I know it works. With the ranit. I would have had to give meds 3x day and that wasn't feasible. Sometimes I think it is best just to bite the bullet and do the more expensive meds, esp. if it is a proven thing.

Best of luck, it is very frustrating trying to find their groove again.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 16, 2010, 10:25 PM

Thanks everyone, I will be calling the vet again to talk about GG, at this point it is not the money, it is his health at stake. I just came back up from the barn, he is perky, acting hungry, but didn't get fed (per vets orders). I did feed the other two, and gave him his third dose of ranitidine for today, this is a classic Catch-22 situation, he is probably ulcery because he won't eat/doesn't like the food, and now he won't eat because his stomach hurts, or he still doesn't like the food.

I will also ask about scoping, hopefully that is something that they can do here on the farm, as I also have trailer loading issues with him since the bad loading incident to bring him home from the hospital in 2008, so taking him back to the clinic is not an option.

And right now the weather is absolutely scary out there, hurricane like winds, rain. . . so they are all in the barn (free choice) waiting out the storm.

cottagefarm

Jan. 17, 2010, 10:07 AM

Claddagh

Jan. 17, 2010, 10:26 AM

You should get this horse scoped and on Gastrogard or just go right to GG. Ranitidine may relieve symptoms in some horses IF given 3X per day but it has never been proven to cure ulcers. Cutting back it to twice or once per day would be completely ineffective even for symptom reduction.

This information is *RIGHT ON* and almost an exact quote from my vet (who is fabulous).

When one of my OTTBs had a mild colic (I gave a shot of Banamine and he was okay). It happened two more times (each time very mild, Banamine worked each time). However, something was going on and I suspected ulcers (he had a few other *ulcery* signs). So I put him on Zantac (Ranitadine) and the symptoms disappeared. My vet said that that "confirmed" the ulcer diagnosis because the Zantac would do nothing for a horse who did not have ulcers, but would alleviate the symptoms if ulcers were present. That is exactly what happened with my horse. My vet said now we have to actually "cure" the ulcers, so we did the full Gastrogard treatment. Total success!!! That was 4 years ago and we have never had another colic or ulcer symptom.

Oh, and my vet also recommended daily NeighLox once the Gastrogard treatment was finished. Horse still gets the NeighLox and I also give him 1 cup of aloe vera juice per day. He has been 100% since the Gastrogard treatment and is a totally *happy camper*!

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 12:51 PM

Hey Munchkin

Sorry to hear that your boy is having problems again.
The scope can be done on the farm, no problem.

Another issue that may be the problem as well as ulcers is scar tissue from his surgery. If the passage is severely compromised the feed is probably having a hard time getting through which would cause it to ferment there and also I'm sure the horse associates eating with pain by now so it's a double edge sword. I know when I had an ulcer about 15 mins or so after eating,even a half slice of toast I would be doubled up in pain.

I think the first thing is seeing what the scope reveals and then make sure he is getting essential vitamin, mineral intake with a true mineral block (not mineral salt).or Foal Aide rejuivanaide paste or drench. Then see if he will eat at least some ration balancer which he only needs a few pounds of a day to meet protein and other needs. I understand he needs a complete feed due to his previous colic surgery but he sounds like he needs to work up to being able to digest properly .
I'm sure his gut flora is all messed up with sx, ulcers etc.

Be interested in knowing what the scope reveals.

Pm me if you need anything. I'm not far from you :)

Thanks, I might take you up on help.

I've given up on trying to get him to eat the Blue Seal Senior, this morning he did eat the Blue Seal Racer, and I didn't give him a large serving. I offered the Blue Seal in a seperate bucket, he said "no thanks!".

Why do these things always happen on the weekends/evenings (meaning the colic). Makes me a bit nuts. I will call the vet on Monday AM, and ask her to have them hold some GG for me at the clinic, and go with that, and talk about getting him scoped. As my husband says "it's only money, we'll make more".

As to surgical scars, there was no surgery on the intestines themselves, just the abdominal wall. I suppose it is possible that there could be some scar tissue involvement. My gut feeling is that there is something in the Blue Seal Senior now that is not agreeing with his digestive system, and I wish I knew exactly what it is that they changed from the old formula that he was thriving on (the feed dealer has talked with them, and not getting any answers, might be time for me to whip off an email to them, or give them a call myself).

Claddagh, that is very encouraging, and I am glad that your horse is doing so well. I have a question on the aloe vera juice, do you just put it in the feed, or do you have to syringe it in? I looked for it last night at Wal-Mart, all they had was small bottles of berry flavored juice, at 5 bucks a bottle, I'm thinking that could get expensive fast, in addition to whatever else I need to keep him digestively sound.

At times like this I question my decision of saving his life last year, but then again, he is a great little horse, love him to bits, and when he is not busy making me tear my hair out, it is not hard to maintain him.

Claddagh

Jan. 17, 2010, 02:26 PM

....

Claddagh, that is very encouraging, and I am glad that your horse is doing so well. I have a question on the aloe vera juice, do you just put it in the feed, or do you have to syringe it in? I looked for it last night at Wal-Mart, all they had was small bottles of berry flavored juice, at 5 bucks a bottle, I'm thinking that could get expensive fast, in addition to whatever else I need to keep him digestively sound....

MM, that's where I buy my aloe juice (Walmart). Two reasons - cost is the biggy (waaaay cheaper than in the health food stores), and secondly, the process by which the one from Walmart is made is exactly the right (recommended) kind, according to what I've read (can't remember exactly, but *cold press* comes to mind). So yeah, get it at Walmart, but don't waste your money on the small bottles of flavored stuff.

I buy the unflavored variety, the one in the gallon bottle (it's maybe around $8 or so). And I just pour a cup a day right onto the feed. My horse eats it right up, never had any problems with it. I do feed *wet* though, so he probably doesn't even notice.

I feed a grain-free feed (grain-free is the way to go with an ulcer prone horse), plus I add soaked beet pulp to the mix. My guy is a truly *hearty eater* - loooves his meals! :lol:

....At times like this I question my decision of saving his life last year, but then again, he is a great little horse, love him to bits, and when he is not busy making me tear my hair out, it is not hard to maintain him.

Oh, don't say that! Once you get this sorted out (and you will - you've already come so far), you won't be sorry. Sometimes it just takes time and some experimenting. It can be very frustrating but once you get that puzzle figured out, you'll manage him just fine. :yes: :yes: :yes: :)

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 05:05 PM

MM, that's where I buy my aloe juice (Walmart). Two reasons - cost is the biggy (waaaay cheaper than in the health food stores), and secondly, the process by which the one from Walmart is made is exactly the right (recommended) kind, according to what I've read (can't remember exactly, but *cold press* comes to mind). So yeah, get it at Walmart, but don't waste your money on the small bottles of flavored stuff.

I buy the unflavored variety, the one in the gallon bottle (it's maybe around $8 or so). And I just pour a cup a day right onto the feed. My horse eats it right up, never had any problems with it. I do feed *wet* though, so he probably doesn't even notice.

I feed a grain-free feed (grain-free is the way to go with an ulcer prone horse), plus I add soaked beet pulp to the mix. My guy is a truly *hearty eater* - loooves his meals! :lol:

Oh, don't say that! Once you get this sorted out (and you will - you've already come so far), you won't be sorry. Sometimes it just takes time and some experimenting. It can be very frustrating but once you get that puzzle figured out, you'll manage him just fine. :yes: :yes: :yes: :)

I'm about in tears right now, he didn't want anything for lunch but Nicker Makers - he cannot live on horse treats! He is sort of grazing, eating the spanish moss that blew off the trees last night and today (wind advisory going on right now in our area).

The problem with all this "experimenting" is that it is taking too long and this trial and error of feeds is making me insane (and broke). I guess I need to spend some time on the phone tomorrow with every feed company nutrionist, and see what they can do/recommend for me to try - along with the call to the vet first of course.

I guess the stress is just getting to me today.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 05:16 PM

If you're nr a Seminole store you should be able to get Buckeye.
They have a new product called EQ8 that has pre and pro biotics. The cereal products are also heat processed for easy digestibility.
I may be able to get you a sample if you would like?

I sent you a PM to take you up on your generous offer of help, since he won't eat anything that I currently have in the feed room. And luckily I have tomorrow off to spend another day running around trying to get everything that I need to try to get him back on track.

TrueColours

Jan. 17, 2010, 05:48 PM

Oh MM .. I feel SO badly for you! You are going above and beyond to get your "problem child" sorted out ...

If only they could talk at times like this ...

Can you get the ground roasted soybeans at your feed store? Might be something else to get a few lbs of to start and see if that agrees with him.

I know how frustrated I am with my mare, but she does at least eventually eat everything in her tub - it just takes her the full 24 hours to do so ... :rolleyes: ... I cant even imagine how frustrating this is for you

{{{HUGS}}} and good luck

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 06:35 PM

Thanks, here is tonights update. Gave him his ranitidine, offered him two different feeds, both rejected. So I crushed up some Nicker Makers (container says they can have up to 40 per day - about 1/2 pound) and tossed in a few baby carrots, and he loved that of course. At least the Nicker Makers have some vitamins and minerals and calories, and he is getting something in his stomach besides dead grass, rye grass and spanish moss!

So, I think he is hungry, he just hates the food that I am offering him.

Going to be a busy day tomorrow running around town gathering up new feeds to try.

Buffyblue

Jan. 17, 2010, 06:58 PM

Have you tried Pennfield's feeds yet? They have great customer service and my horse is thrilled with her feed!

http://www.pennfield.com/equinefeed/index.cfm

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 07:05 PM

Have you tried Pennfield's feeds yet? They have great customer service and my horse is thrilled with her feed!

http://www.pennfield.com/equinefeed/index.cfm

I have been emailing with the area rep, going to email him tonight about the sample bag of Fibregized, which was his recommendation.

Buffyblue

Jan. 17, 2010, 07:53 PM

Fibregized is what my horse eats! I hope it works for your guy.

Claddagh

Jan. 17, 2010, 08:10 PM

MM - I feed Fibregized too! My guys love it.

If you have a Pennfield dealer nearby, I would pick up a bag and try it. Pennfield makes excellent feed.

Your guy is a real *pistol* isn't he??? :yes: He's loving his dessert but like a little kid, he won't eat his vegetables! :lol:

Fharoah

Jan. 17, 2010, 08:37 PM

[QUOTE=rcloisonne;4622938]You should get this horse scoped and on Gastrogard or just go right to GG. Ranitidine may relieve symptoms in some horses IF given 3X per day but it has never been proven to cure ulcers. Cutting back it to twice or once per day would be completely ineffective even for symptom reduction.

This is what I have been told as well. My vets don't think my horse has ulcer that said I have seen personality changes and appetite changes and the six months of precribed bute has concerned me. My horse eats enough but not his normal piggy self, his weight is good but I am a bit of a freak would like him treated anyways although noboby other than me worries him. In all the years I have owned him he is different. Just wish gastrogard was less expensive.

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 17, 2010, 11:43 PM

Yes, my vet was just going the conservative (money-wise) with treatment, she said "sure, I can sell you the GG - if you don't mind spending 35.00 a day". Then she said to try the ranitidine first. Paying a grand for a month's worth of meds (when I am still paying off his colic surgery bill from last year) is really not my idea of a good time.

Well, in an effort to make sure he has something in his stomach, I picked up a box of generic Cheerios at the store, and tossed in a heaping handful into his crushed up Nicker Makers and carrots. I don't need to tell you that he snarfed that up like there was no tomorrow. That was just a "snack" to carry him over until the next midnight dose of ranitidine, where I will do more of the same, I figure better that he eats something vs nothing at this point.

TrueColours

Jan. 18, 2010, 07:20 AM

MM - if you just leave the "real" feeds in there all day/night long, will it not be gone by the next time you check?

I no longer expect my mare to eat everything at once like the others do but over the course of the evening / night / early morning, she does eventually eat everything

Would that not work with your guy? Or - is he out with the others overnight so that set up isnt possible?

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 18, 2010, 12:11 PM

It is not possible for me to just leave the feed. All three horses are on 24x7 turnout, with free access to the barn. I would have to leave them all cooped up in their stalls (no individual paddocks either, other than my riding ring). With the "no hay" diet, keeping them in for extended periods of time really comes with it's own set of issues.

The vet will be here in 40 minutes to run bloodwork, and check him over to see if she sees/hears anything unusual, and we will probably start with the GG also (ca-ching), and then I'll run to the feed store, to pick up some of the other feeds/supplements suggested (thank you cottagefarm again).

Other than the self-imposed hunger-strike, he is acting normal, his usual perky, in-your-pocket self.

We went through this same thing after his colic surgery, he would snub the feeds that the vet's wanted him to eat, and I was so relieved when I did find a feed that he loved. Just adds to my frustration and worry.

Saidapal

Jan. 18, 2010, 12:24 PM

They are all fed 4-5 times a day.

This jumped out at me so if it's been addressed you can disregard my response....but, is it possible he's just NOT hungry? 4-5 times a day seems like a lot to me. This means your feeding him every 5-6 hours. Even I'm not hungry every 5-6 hours. Why not try reducing his feedings and let him work up a good appetite?

MunchkinsMom

Jan. 18, 2010, 01:33 PM

This jumped out at me so if it's been addressed you can disregard my response....but, is it possible he's just NOT hungry? 4-5 times a day seems like a lot to me. This means your feeding him every 5-6 hours. Even I'm not hungry every 5-6 hours. Why not try reducing his feedings and let him work up a good appetite?

Maybe he is doing that on his own. The reason for that many feedings was because in order to get him to eat the recommended amount of the feed for a horse on a no-hay diet, comes to about 10 pounds per day. Which comes to about 2 pounds per feeding. That was at the height of winter last year, right after the colic surgery. They were all cut back to about 3 feedings per day of about a pound per feeding in the height of summer. But when he refuses to eat for 24 hours? Not normal. And now that the grass is basically dead, I would think they would need a bit more food to make up for it.

So, get this one. I brought them in for the vet call (before she got here), and offered him the two buckets of feed so he could choose. I fully expected him to turn his nose up at both again (like he did all day yesterday), and of course he surprised me and ate the Racer. So, when the vet pulled in I told her he was eating again, she shook her head, and I said "pull the blood anyway, and check him over just to see if I am missing anything, or if the bloodwork shows something". So she checked him over, all is fine, teeth are fine, heart is fine, lungs are fine, gut sounds are fine, temp is fine. . . pulled the blood, and gave me a bottle of ranitidine (she said we will hold off on the GG as he seems to be eating now - for the moment that is).

I'm still not counting on him eating the Racer for any length of time (and it is not a complete feed anyway), so I am on my way out the door to get the other feeds to try. And if he doesn't like them, well, bonus time for the other two, as I dribble it daily into their ration of feed to use it up.

Wish me luck! I did go through this after the colic surgery, but I didn't think he was this finicky about feed! I guess I just got lucky last year that he liked the 4th feed that I tried.

Fharoah

Jan. 18, 2010, 02:43 PM

Can he be out on grass 24/7? I had a mare have a still born and tear her anius though her valva (something like that). The vets said no hay and I believe no grain but grass. This was July/August and the grass had been eaten down and there wasn't much. As vet suggested a quart of soaked beet pulp I think we gave silicone and good supplements can't remember, we also gave her pelleted rice bran, cool calories, ground flax can't remember but even with no hay and constant grazing on but little grass avaible she actually looked great. I think we fed her three times a day it wasn't allot but she did well she was not thin she was shinny and beautiful.

Best wishes, I feel for you!