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View Full Version : Are you allowed to jump when not in a lesson?



skyy
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
Can everyone chime in and let me know if your boarding barn allows you to jump when you are not in a lesson? Also, is there a resident trainer? how you would classify your barn (more pleasure or more competitive/showing)? If showing, what type of shows (local, local rated, goes to away shows, goes to Florida, etc)? Thanks.

Dare1
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:15 PM
Absolutely no jumping outside of lessons at our barn.
We have 2 trainers there.
It is a mix of lesson and showing barn.
We do local and/or local rated (trillium in Ontario) shows.

chillydc
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I think most barns have a no jumping except in lessons rule. My current barn does not though, but it is pretty laid back. I know most of the other barns I have been at did not allow you to jump when not in a lesson, or at least with some other form of supervision (parent or ground person). I don't jump my horse a whole lot, usually only once a week, so I try to do it when there is at least another person there just in case. :)

SkipChange
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:18 PM
Barn 1--Big time trainer that hits the A circuit hard. Declares no jumping unless in a lesson. I had been boarding at the barn years before she became the trainer and had always jumped outside of lessons. I protested, jumped when she wasn't around (usually had my mom or friend out to supervise). She was fired in short order for other reasons. I was young and dumb, like 8th grade. Was probably rude/dangerous to have jumped anyway but I did eventing at the time and she was a hunter trainer so it's not like I was ever going to take lessons from her--which would mean no jumping ever.

Barn 2--Big lesson barn, 100 lessons a week, 4 rings and tons of kiddies running around but also a strong college contingent. They allow jumping alone after the age of 16 or 18. But rules: no jumping when a lesson is going on and try to limit jumping during peak hours (3pm-6pm) when there's lots of young kids in the ring. Logic to the second rule is two fold, don't want to accidentally run into the kids or scare them and don't want to set a bad example--as in don't want the kids to think it's the "cool" thing to do and that they should try too.

I think most serious show barns do not allow jumping outside a lesson. But since I have ridden and shown without a trainer during my younger years I really feel entitled to this right. When I was a beginner obviously I took lessons but when my trainer quit suddenly I just kept riding without her. I was in 9th grade and jumping 3'6" courses and just went on my merry little way. Would take lessons every now and then and do clinics. When I got to college and bought a new horse started taking weekly lessons. Right now the horse is off in full training with a BNT, who I am fairly certain does not approve of jumping outside of lessons.

worth_the_wait08
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:25 PM
That is so weird, I was thinking about posting a thread asking that same question this afternoon!!

I have two barns, one at home and one at school. My home barn is very chill, local shows only, and the trainer there allows you to jump outside of lessons if you're over 18- encourages it actually. My school barn is more competition-geared, A shows and all that, and they don't let you jump outside of lessons- ever. I guess it's just a matter of opinion for the trainers.

forestergirl99
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:26 PM
We are aloud to jump outside of lessons as long as it's on our own horse. When I started jumping a little every ride is when my horse and I really started to trust each other, and he started getting more confident. There is a trainer. She's also the barn manager. It's a pretty laid back barn. Not a very showy barn because we don't really have anyone that's ready to show(green horses), but I'm going to start going to some shows down in GA this year because my horse is ready.

kellyb
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:31 PM
Yes we can jump outside of lessons. Not being able to would be a dealbreaker for me as I do not take lessons very often.

*andi*
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:33 PM
No jumping when not in a lesson. There is one resident trainer (she owns/runs the barn). It is a show barn - horses are expected to be kept in 5-6 rides a week. We compete at shows from BC to Ontario and down the west coast.

SkipChange
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:33 PM
Just wanted to add, that while I feel jumping outside of lessons is DANGEROUS for young/inexperienced and don't approve of it for children (hypocritical I know)...I know so many riders who have never jumped out of a lesson that really lack the ability to think for themselves. And I feel like free thinking, solve the problem yourself type of skill is really essential to good riding. I don't necessarily think you MUST ride outside of a lesson to develop that skill, but the type of instruction where the trainer constantly coaches every. single. stride. the. whole. course. isn't always a good thing. Yes it is valuable so you can get down to the nitty gritty details and understand exactly what is right, what is wrong, and when to do what...but is it really necessary for every lesson?

When you go on course at the show your trainer isn't going to be there to chant "inside leg, outside rein, eyes up, more, sit back" and at some point you should be able to recognize that for yourself. Anyways rant over, proceed to answer the OP's question :D

Go Fish
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:35 PM
Can everyone chime in and let me know if your boarding barn allows you to jump when you are not in a lesson? Also, is there a resident trainer? how you would classify your barn (more pleasure or more competitive/showing)? If showing, what type of shows (local, local rated, goes to away shows, goes to Florida, etc)? Thanks.

No. It's a liability issue - the BOs insurance company won't allow it.

Yes, resident BNT. Very competitive show barn...all rated shows and we do Thermal.

AllyandPete
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:37 PM
Absoloutely no jumping outside of lessons whether it is your own horse, a leased horse or a lesson horse that you are hacking. We have a large lesson program and boarders that do the A circuit up and down the east coast

Rocky
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:43 PM
No jumping outside of lessons.

skyy
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:43 PM
I hear ya! Our policy is to not allow jumping outside of a lesson for a bunch of reasons (insurance being one of them). It is difficult for some of us greener jumpers (me!) to go into the show ring by ourselves, so every so often during a lesson we will play horse show. The trainer will school us over a single vertical/oxer in the indoor and send us to the outdoor to jump the course just like at a show and then we will review. It helps a great deal and teaches us to think for ourselves.

forestergirl99
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:44 PM
Just wanted to add, that while I feel jumping outside of lessons is DANGEROUS for young/inexperienced and don't approve of it for children (hypocritical I know)...I know so many riders who have never jumped out of a lesson that really lack the ability to think for themselves. And I feel like free thinking, solve the problem yourself type of skill is really essential to good riding. I don't necessarily think you MUST ride outside of a lesson to develop that skill, but the type of instruction where the trainer constantly coaches every. single. stride. the. whole. course. isn't always a good thing. Yes it is valuable so you can get down to the nitty gritty details and understand exactly what is right, what is wrong, and when to do what...but is it really necessary for every lesson?

When you go on course at the show your trainer isn't going to be there to chant "inside leg, outside rein, eyes up, more, sit back" and at some point you should be able to recognize that for yourself. Anyways rant over, proceed to answer the OP's question :D

I agree. However, for me(and I'm sure other people) jumping outside of a lesson was very important to the training of my horse. Jumping once a week was just not enough for him to be able to gain confidence, and his lack of confidence was preventing us from being able to progress much in lessons. I'm a good enough rider to train a hyper, sensitive horse though.

KateKat
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:47 PM
technically I've seen people jump outside of a lesson, however my trainer has always been on premises. And oftentimes its someone who's tooling around the arena when a lesson is going on (a more advanced rider who is schooling) and asks to pop over a couple of the fences the lesson is doing. Its a fairly laid back barn. However if no one was around, I doubt it would be allowed. Too much liability.

smm20
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:48 PM
At my barn you may jump outside of lessons 1) if you own the jumps and 2) if you set up and take down your jumps each time that you use them.

Trainers are the only people who are allowed to keep their jumps permanently set up and they only allow riders to go over their jumps in lessons.

I have only very rarely witnessed someone willing to haul their jumps in, set them up, ride, and then break down the jumps.

I think this is a good system.

paintlady
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:51 PM
I've only boarded at private, primarily adult, "non-show" barns. I can do whatever I please with my horse as long as I'm not causing damage or hurting anyone. I can't imagine paying board and being told that I wasn't allowed to jump my own horse.

Big_Tag
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:56 PM
It's not really allowed where I ride, either. However, not that I'm *exempt* from it, exactly, but exceptions apply. For example, I used to have a pony who got ridiculoudly keyed up when jumping. Trainer suggested incorporating crossrails in his flat work to make it "no big deal" for him, which did help alot. Also, when I've hacked horses for trainer in the past, she's often specifically said "if you want to pop him/her down a couple lines, go ahead."

But, I think she trusts me not to go bounding around 3'6" on my own and trusts my riding ability enough to know I'll be ok.

jaslyn1701
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:58 PM
My barn does - with certain caveats. No jumping alone - there must be someone on the premises. I like using practice rides to work on what we did in lessons - and that includes jumping. It's when I get to work on me - positions, hands, etc. Some of my best rides have been when I was "alone". But, then I don't jump big stuff - yet!:)

klmck63
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:59 PM
Yes, we're allowed, but since I take lessons twice a week I don't. The barn is a mix of h/j and dressage so the jumps are left in the arena only three days a week.

The h/j riders at the barn are A circuit riders, dressage riders seem to be the equivalent.

When my coach goes down to Thermal without me this year (:( stupid school) she will be sending me courses and I'll be jumping them alone and letting her know how it goes (hopefully with some videos included). I'm 18 and all the other h/j riders are 17 or older so I'm not sure what they'd do in the case of a younger rider.

Tegan
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:59 PM
Yes, we're allowed.
There isn't a resident trainer at my current boarding barn. It's actually mostly dressage based but there are a few h/j people.

I think for boarding barns without trainers its unreasonable to require a lesson.
For barns with trainers, I think you should have to get approval. If you're competent and can ride yourself, you should be allowed to jump around small stuff as long as people are around. Although I can see how this method may cause problems.

Personally, I hate doing once a week lessons and jumping all at once. It's too much for me and my horse. I prefer jumping 3x a week or so but doing a lot less, and I don't have the time or money to do that many lessons.

With my young horse (as long as she's good that day) I'll end with trotting over a cross rail a few times. I don't think jumping should be a big deal for either the rider or the horse.

hellerkm
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
I grew up riding at home, my parents owned a large boarding farm and gave lesson so mom was the trainer. We jumped whenever we wanted to! Never gave it a thought of course my mom RARELY left the premises ( my grandparents even did our grocery shopping) so there was always someone around. I went to another barn when I was older and we could jump outside of lessons there as well. Fast forward another 15 yrs and I know train my own kids ( and have started teaching at another farm) I let my kids jump whenever they want to, I am usually around and they are not the type to just build jumps until they crash. We have a limit of 50 fences a week per horse or pony, I don't think we have ever met the limit I set. the barn where I teach allows you to make your own decisions, if you can jump and are confident enough to do so without a trainer go for it just make sure someone is on the property and knows what you plan to do.
As kids we jumped ANYTHING in sight, we had a gorgeous( really did not realize what we had at the time) outside course and we loved to ride out there in the summer. We were jumping ponies over coops, and walls and brush and having a blast!! I am sure my mom would have stopped us if we were not good enough to survive!

AmandaandTuff
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
My horses are at home so I can jump whatever, whenever. My own rule is to have a ground person watching or out in the general barn area, just in case.

shawneeAcres
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:12 PM
I run a small barn and am the trainer. ANyone, students of mine or not may jump at any time they wish to. I think it is ridiculous to limit students to only jumping "during lessons". There is no way a person can practice and improve between lessons without working on what was done in a lesson. I encourage my students to practice and, the better students that have greenies participate in the training of their horse, with guidance obviously. There is a rule that ALL people jumping must have approved helmet and all minors must have approved helmet while mounted. Also there needs to be another person present if a minor is riding, for safety in case of accident. If I see someone doing something unsafe, or not suitable for their level or horses level of training I will talk to them, but this rarely ever happens. We are a competitive barn, pretty much showing from February thru November each year, taking december and january off usually. We do local circuits and "C" level shows as well as many of my students are active in the 4-H program. As I am generally at the barn when students are out practicing, I keep an eye on things, and usually the lower levels riders don't do a lot of jumping without being in a lesson, and the upper level kids are very good at only jumping a couple times weekly, so not overdoing it.

tBHj
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:29 PM
I jump outside of lessons. Nothing bigger then 2'6 though.

Lone
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:38 PM
The barn I'm at right now doesn't have that rule (and I've never boarded at a place that does) but the barn I'm moving to does have that rule in place.

I'm not a fan of the rule personally, I wouldn't want to board long term at a place with that kind of restriction.

Taybee
Jan. 11, 2010, 07:38 PM
Yes, it's allowed where I board. Boarders who are over 18 are allowed to jump outside of lessons using their own judgment, while boarders under 18 and those riding school horses are allowed once they demonstrate that they can jump capably in their lessons. The trainer does place guidelines on the jumping (i.e. how high the jumps can be, there must be someone else around) and give them some sample exercises to reinforce what they're working on in lessons. It's a somewhat competitive barn showing on the local and trillium circuits.

indygirl2560
Jan. 11, 2010, 08:44 PM
The two show barns I've been at(including my current one) do not allow jumping outside of lessons. The most you can do is canter poles. It's mainly for safety reasons so people don't hurt themselves or their horse while no one is around. A few of the backyard barns I boarded at allowed it. The policy really drives me nuts but I could definitely see where people could get hurt, esp. the young lesson kids who don't know what the heck they're doing...

costco_muffins
Jan. 11, 2010, 08:44 PM
Barn #1 - Jumping allowed for one and all. However, jumps must be put up/taken down every ride. This makes jumping a more conscious part of a ride and not just something that a kid would throw into a goof-off ride. Most are clever enough not to try if they don't know what they are doing. Local level and 4H barn, very Parelli-ized.

Barn #2 - Owned by my Godparents, used to allow jumping/gaming/whatever, but just changed the rules. Now you must have an instructor or individual with riding instructor insurance there in order to do anything but flat work. Theirs is a very private barn (only their horses live there), however, locals haul-in during the winter and pay a fee to ride indoors.

Our little arena on our farm is impractical to do any jumping in. I can usually get a 20 meter circle in there, but the footing is bad and the drainage is bad, so I avoid anything too rough, instead opting to ride over to Barn #1 when I want to jump or the weather is bad.

LookinSouth
Jan. 11, 2010, 08:47 PM
I'm at a dressage/event boarding barn. We're allowed to jump whenever we like and I wouldn't board at a barn where this wasn't the case. We also have a full BN-N XC course that we may school at anytime.
There are about 7 of us in the barn that jump. We range in age from 16-30 and there are no age restrictions. Everyone that jumps is competent and safe. There is only a resident dressage trainer who does not jump nor teach jumping. We have outside trainers come in to teach jumping.
As far as showing most of the dressage riders show at the local shows and the eventers mostly show rated.

RugBug
Jan. 11, 2010, 08:53 PM
Jumping is allowed outside of lessons, but with the following caveats:

Juniors must have a parent in attendence

If you break it, you replace it. This is hard to enforce but it seems to be getting better...but maybe that's only because some of the latest breakage was witnessed. The jumps do not belong to the barn...they belong to the trainer so it is only by her grace that people can jump at all.

Atypical
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:00 PM
Don't care where I was at, I would get my shorts in a knot if I was told no jumping without being in a lesson. Without another person in the ring, fine. No if you don't have a helmet, fine. No, if you're getting in the way of an ongoing lesson, fine. But a flat out, you must take a lesson, would seriously peeve me off

Vandy
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:14 PM
But a flat out, you must take a lesson, would seriously peeve me off
There's a very simple solution to this: don't board somewhere where this is a rule. What seriously peeves me off (not directed at this poster personally) is when people choose to board somewhere that this rule is clearly outlined from the get-go and then complain about it or ignore it. My barn, my rules. There are plenty of barns that don't have this rule, but at least in my experience, these barns generally aren't the ones with nice jumps, good footing and a competent H/J trainer, though obviously there are exceptions.

Atypical
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:17 PM
And very simply, this is why i would never board with you. :)

Vandy
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:26 PM
No worries, you'd HATE it here ;)

Equibrit
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:30 PM
It sounds a lot like the trainers way of ensuring income.

SkipChange
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:37 PM
It sounds a lot like the trainers way of ensuring income.

It also sounds a lot like the trainer's way of ensuring their students, horses, jumps, and arenas stay safe.

While I do jump outside of lessons, I understand the trainers who don't allow it. Most I knew did it to prevent people from jumping their horses to death, attempting obstacles beyond their abilities, using poor judgement, abusing the jumps resulting in damage, or messing up the footing (like jumping when the arena is a completely underwater). Not to mention the insurance issues many have mentioned.

I find that usually the barns where lessons are required to jump are barns with intense training programs where everyone ALREADY takes lessons anyway.

ETA: just reread my post, didn't mean it to sound so harsh. This thread is getting a little intense.

danceronice
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:39 PM
I've only boarded at private, primarily adult, "non-show" barns. I can do whatever I please with my horse as long as I'm not causing damage or hurting anyone. I can't imagine paying board and being told that I wasn't allowed to jump my own horse.

Yep. Well, actually now, I'm the ONLY boarder at the moment, and the only one likely to be jumping. I assume if I fall that's under the equine liability warning in the contract and posted in the barn (ie horses are dangerous, I knew this, it's my own stupid fault if I get hurt.)

Atypical
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:44 PM
I'm sure you have a lovely facility Vandy, but it's not for me. I've just grown up way more independent with my horses than that, and with a significant lack of funds once my folks no longer paid for it.

Linny
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:53 PM
I've seen several rules and different barns. Current barn, no jumping outside a lesson. I'm fine with that because it's a place that mainly is a lesson barn where most of the schoolies are part leased so there are alot of times when not so supervised kids are in the riding areas.
Last barn, same rule. It was a lesson/show barn with on staff trainers.
Prior barn, limited jumping allowed. Being that many of the kids spent hours riding like mad on the fields and pastures and trails, hopping over a few rails seemed pretty mild. Mind you this was an A show barn, mainly in jumpers, with limited lesson program. I regularly rode a horse that loved to jump and was told that I could pop him over a little jump here and there to keep his attention.
Prior barn (very long ago) riders could ask specific permission from owner/trainer but jumping outside lessons was not the norm.

Dun Ciarain
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:56 PM
I rode at the same show barn for two stints as an adult, and I never asked because it was never going to be an issue. Both times I rode there, there was always one or more very qualified assistants (most of which are well-known trainers themselves now) if I was at home and the barn was on the road. Since the one and only program available was all-inclusive, I could have as many lessons as I wanted to (same was true when I had multiple horses there - although I don't recall jumping them both on the same day ever).

WorthTheWait95
Jan. 11, 2010, 09:58 PM
I've boarded in both situations. I'm currently the only boarder at a private barn with no "rules" (except the obvious, good manners rules) since the BO and I are very good friends, show together, etc. We each try and limit our jumping to when the other is present simply to have a pair of eyes on the ground if something is going wrong but our schedules don't always align.

As a junior I never jumped alone at home simply because when my horses were at home they didn't get jumped at all. We saved their jumps for the shows so it was pretty much a non issue.

I did leave one barn in college that told me I couldn't even "jump" cavalletti without a trainer present. That seemed a little ridiculous. Plus they flat out lied to me prior to moving in and told me that jumping was permitted for anyone with a helmet and over the age of 18 with or without a trainer.

HunterJumperLuv
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:02 PM
Do I understand the need to restrict jumping to lessons? (re: insurance) Yes.

Would I ever board at a facility with such rules? Maybe but probably not.

Its my horse, and if I so choose to break my own neck, then its my own fault. I'm not saying I go out and make reckless decisions, but, personally I don't feel like I need my trainer to hold my hand at all times.(Such as if I decide to pop over a cross rail.) (That being said, I love my trainer to death, and yes, there are times that I do need her to hold my hand :P, Just not 24/7)

If it were say a school horse/someone elses horse, No, in no way shape or form would I even feel comfortable taking the liability upon myself of jumping that horse. Say freak accident occurs, and something unfortunatly happens to the horse that I DONT OWN.. I wouldnt want that liability.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:15 PM
Yes it's allowed. I am BO. Trainer and I determine who is allowed based on level of rider/ horse and rider combo. Helmet required, Jumping alone not allowed, someone else must be in barn.

I admit I don't get the whole "insurance" excuse. It may cost MORE in premium to get coverage for this. I have shopped around insurance carriers on several occassions, getting quotes to see if I could save money by switching liability carriers, and have yet to find one that makes this stipulation: " we will NOT insure you if you allow jumping outside of lessons". I am not saying there aren't carriers hat do not allow this, just that it is easily possible to find liability insurance that WILL cover this situation. I am very skeptical of this excuse.

I feel it is the decision of the owners and trainers of the facility whether or not this is allowed. Their comfort level. Lots of different factors.

blackcat95
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:16 PM
Barn 1- No jumping outside of lessons, but if you're just hacking and you want to hop a few fences if the trainer is in the ring teaching that's ok. Barn is a show/ boarding barn. We mostly do local and some rated stuff, not the big A circuit shows like florida... 1 resident trainer who's there 6 days a week unless she's at a show and then that means about half the barn goes too.

Barn 2- You can jump outside lessons, but that's only because we're the trainer's only serious clients because she's building her business and is on a part-time basis right now... but only if someone is there supervising you. Barn is mostly a pleasure barn with us doing local shows. There's us (the HJ's), dressage, trail riders, and some TR people. I only see the trainer during the summer so there's not really the "go away to shows" period...

Vandy
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:17 PM
I'm sure you have a lovely facility Vandy, but it's not for me. I've just grown up way more independent with my horses than that, and with a significant lack of funds once my folks no longer paid for it.No offense taken, and I totally understand your viewpoint. When I was in college I considered boarding my jumper at a barn 5 minutes away from school where I had a part time job doing stalls. However, trainer wouldn't let me jump on my own, and she was a beginner instructor I really wasn't interested in training with - and I had my own trainer (albeit in another state) who I was perfectly happy to just meet at the shows. But rather than trying to change her program, I just chose to board somewhere else (unfortunately much further away) that didn't have this policy.

ThatScaryChick
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:37 PM
I wouldn't board at a barn that didn't allow me to jump when not in a lesson. I'm an adult and I feel like I'm experienced enough to make the choice for myself. However, I can understand why barn owners or trainers choose to have those rules in place. Like others have said here already, if one doesn't like the rules that the barn has, you need to find some place else to board. Or buy your own place and make your own rules. :)

RumoursFollow
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:53 PM
I am a trainer..

I do not own the barn where I work. I am advertised as the barn's trainer, and they do not allow any other english trainers at the barn. (unless I approve them.) I have mostly teenager customers, some adults, some smaller children. I dont generally "do" beginners, and currently have no one that isnt capable of jumping a course with confidence. I own some of the jumps, and a customer of mine owns the rest.

Since I dont control the barn rules, there is no rule that says no jumping. I'm pretty liberal about what I do and do not allow... I am an "intense" type trainer but outside of a lesson I am generally pretty laid back. I would say 99% of the time no one jumps outside a lesson because they dont feel the need to, and the ones that do generally have something that I've told them to work on during their own time. I am almost always there when the kids are, so they very rarely jump without my "supervision."

I can understand why the seeming majority of trainers have the no jumping unless lessoning at their barns. Its just simply not my style. My customers respect my opinion and generally follow my advice and I trust them to do what is best for their horse. :)

BrookdaleBay
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:57 PM
I board at a competitive polo farm that only has one set of standards and two poles, and I'm the only jumper. The BO's are in the house most of the time and unless the worker is riding sets, I'm alone in the arena. Alone I stick to cross rails and I drag a friend out if I want to go higher.

technopony
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:03 PM
I've been at nine boarding barns, and this was NEVER a rule. Granted, only one of them was a competitive hunter/jumper barn; the rest were private, small training barns or dressage show barns (so obviously jumping wasn't a big issue, though I did jump occasionally). But even the HJ barn I was at allowed jumping outside lessons... and it was a very big, well-respected name on the A circuit.

I take as many lessons as I can, but also work with my green horses myself (they don't get pro rides), so no jumping outside of lessons would be a dealbreaker for me. There are times that I like to incorporate a jump or two into a flat session, or do a specific gymnastic or exercise after a hack... etc. I don't always want to jump in a lesson.

seeuatx
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:18 PM
Yup. I did for a while. It didn't bother me much at all, especially since I knew where the rule came from. I was a pretty dumb 15 y/o, and there were several other dumb teens there (this all in hindsight, we all thought we were pretty smart then). We used to "spot" each other when we jumped. Then one day two fellow dumb teens went to the jump field without telling anyone where they were going. One pony came back riderless. Turns out Dumb teen A tried to jump, pony refused, and she fell. She broke her collar bone.

Needless to say that trainer about had a heart attack when pony came back alone. And the next day a new rule went up on the rule board. NO JUMPING when not in a lesson.

luckeys71
Jan. 12, 2010, 12:47 AM
When I boarded at a competitive Show Hunter barn (local and A shows), there was no jumping outside of lessons for the simple reason of not wanting poeple practicing bad habits. They had enough clients that they were able to easily fill the barn with only students and most of the horses were in a program where they were ridden by the professional at least once a week.
I recently boarded at a mixed pleasure type of barn and they had a few jumps and you could jump whenever you wanted, but if you had a trainer come to give you lessons, you had to pay the barn $10 (well, the trainer did, but in fact it would be from the students, anyway) and the trainer had to have insurance.
I, now, board at the same barn as the competitive Show Hunter barn, but it has had a name change and only has one of the original two trainers. It is a more mixed group of boarders, now, and no longer heavy into showing. You can now jump outside of lessons, which is good, because I haven't been able to afford too many lately.
I understand the restriction on jumping outside of lessons when you are in a trainer's barn. If you want to ride with that trainer, then you follow the rules and I did for many years with no problems. I like being able to jump my horse on my own, but she is young and I am old, so I am very conservative about what I do with her and we only jump little jumps. If I could afford (and manage time wise) two or three lessons a week, then I would never jump outside of a lesson!

Void
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:27 AM
We aren't allowed to, but I see no problem with it. There are plenty of things to improve on the flat without having jumps involved.

SarahandSam
Jan. 12, 2010, 06:27 AM
Lesson barn is the one AllyandPete is describing--absolutely no jumping outside of lessons.

Boarding barn allows it; they have lessons there when an outside trainer comes in, and common courtesy would stall me from jumping during their lessons, but otherwise for adults I think they let you make your own decisions if it's your own horse. I am a beginner so I don't plan to jump without my trainer there, unless maybe a crossrail or something. (:

bumknees
Jan. 12, 2010, 06:56 AM
no jumping outside of lessons would be a deal breaker for me. I think I kinda sorta understand bout the insurance excuse concidering how sue happy society has become dispite 'waivers'. So insurance is an easy excuse.
If I were restricted to jumping in lessons only I wonder how it would be possibe to advance my riding without being attached to the hipof my trainer...

mvp
Jan. 12, 2010, 06:59 AM
I'm old and made my own.... and I'm old.

So I wouldn't choose a barn that required a lesson every time I wanted to jump. But I do ask. If that's how they roll, I need to know up front and choose another.

On the other hand, if the trainer can get the job done better than I can, or I get stuck with something, or she has an idea while I'm practicing and getting no where, I'd really appreciate some help.

Oh, and could we please, please do a gymnastic lesson or school? It almost always takes a ground person to make this work. I'm happy for the help, and I'll return the favor by setting poles, too!

My problem is that lessons often revolve around the course the trainer has set, the needs of other students... anything other than what it will take to make my horse go better with the minimum number of fences jumped. Offer me that, and I'll limit my jumping to lessons.

supershorty628
Jan. 12, 2010, 07:34 AM
Jumping while not in a lesson is not allowed at my barn. The horses get jumped enough (2-3 times a week for some) that there is no reason for more. Jumping is mostly flatwork with a few things in the way... thus there are plenty of ways to improve sans trainer supervision without having to jump.

Trakehner
Jan. 12, 2010, 07:50 AM
Oh man, guess I grew up at barns without nannies.

As a kid, we always jumped when no instructors were present...but this was in the dark ages. Most of us jumped VWs when they were left in the field next to the jump ring.

Nowadays, when it comes to minor children jumping, I can see no jumping when no instructor is present.

Eons ago, I used to practice for Caprilli dressage tests by myself all the time...wouldn't torture someone to watch dressage practices and the jumps were only 3'.

Ya' know, people can go to shows without their trainer breast feeding directions from the rails too! If you can't jump, don't show at jumper shows, if you need a trainer to hold your hand, don't show at jumper shows. Same with dressage readers...no nannies allowed, learn the bloody test.

For adults, it makes more sense to jump with someone around to help identify the body or set the jumps back up...but it's only common sense, not law. I hate nannies who look out for other's safety.

Feral children and dogs are worse causes of damage at barns.

porter83
Jan. 12, 2010, 09:00 AM
Feral children and dogs are worse causes of damage at barns.

:lol::lol::lol:

Love it!

Here's my two cents:

Barn #1: Major A show H/J barn...no jumping outside lessons...for anyone...ever. Now, included in our board was 3 lessons per week (one flat, two jumping), so really there was no need.

Barn #2: Old rundown event barn (but with amazing XC from BN-I)...I could jump anything I could point my horse at at any time, preferably with at least someone riding out with me. Obviously, I wasn't jumping anything alone with names such as "the giant's table" or "b**ch of a ditch"...

Barn #3: Self-Care barn after trainer at last barn stopped buying shavings and hay (but that's another story for another day)... had about six sets of standards, no trainer and could jump whenever I wanted, but had to set up and take down before and after each ride. At this point I discovered jumping big empty plastic barrels :yes:

Barn #4: Lesson and show barn (local) mainly dressage and combined training...could jump whenever as long as someone was on the ground

Barn #5: A H/J barn that is now private, and adults are allowed to jump without lessons, provided they are competent.

I understand the insurance thing, but I really do believe that it has much more to do with increasing trainer revenue. After the freedoms I've had, I probably won't ever board at another barn with such a rule.

magnolia73
Jan. 12, 2010, 09:03 AM
My barn allows jumping whenever. It's really fantastic- all the care and facility of a top notch show barn, with no set trainer lording over the place. All of the boarders are very proficient, with some doing the A Circuit, and most quite experienced. I never see anyone over their heads and no one over jumps. The kids either jump with a parent or in a lesson and most of the adults do serious jumping with a friend or ground person.

My last barn had a head trainer, but she was fine about jumping outside of lessons and not many people did, and those that did were responsible about it.

That said, I can see why people in full care, full training programs are discouraged from jumping. I can also see why barns populated with large numbers of kids disallow jumping. In the first case- you are paying out the wazoo to have a perfectly programmed show animal and teaching it to stop on a random Sunday then complaining when it stops in the ring probably aggravates the trainer. And in the second case, I have seen lots of kids way overjump horses and basically when you get kids (or adults) yahooing over too big of fences, it is disruptive to other riders. I was at a barn and there was a woman who would make her kid jump and it was awful- you'd be riding- and it was crash, bolt, crash, bolt and the only thing you could do was huddle in the corner and wait for it to stop.

I too jump almost every ride to build my comfort over fences- just small stuff. I can't imagine my horse progressing over fences being jumped once a week.

Elmstead
Jan. 12, 2010, 09:49 AM
This is an interesting thread. I'm always interested to see how other trainers/farm owners manage such things. I really think each barn has to come up with a policy that they are comfortable with, and that suits their clients' needs.

If it is primarily just a boarding barn, then of course people should pretty much be allowed to do what they please within courtesy and safety limits (ie: bring in trainers, jump alone, etc). A horse show oriented, private training barn may be more restrictive for the benefit of the horses/clients...most of these barns are heavy into the daily training/riding/lessoning anyway and the horses are typically very high dollar competition horses with clients who have very specific competition goals.

We are a private show barn with lessons/training included (so everyone lessons frequently); however, we DO allow our ADULT clients to jump outside lessons if they happen to only be able to make it out on days/times without lessons (but this is very rare). We are very selective about who we take on as clients (we want it to be a good fit). The adults are generally competent horse people, not to mention highly intelligent people in general. As adult riders, they own their own horses and are aware of their and their horses' limitations. Of course they don't want to jeopardize their training and hard work by pushing their limits without a qualified eye on the ground. So if they do jump alone it is over much smaller jumps and they work on basics that don't require trainer standing there.

We don't allow the juniors under 18 the same freedom. Not because they aren't competent, but because they are still MINORS! Anything involving minors is a much trickier liability situation and we always operate with more restrictions regarding minors...for their safety and ours! As a parent, I would not trust a barn that allowed my kids to jump without a professional around...I know some people disagree, but I tend to err on the side of extra caution when dealing with kids. I used to be one! ;-) Juniors also don't generally own their horses. Their parents own the horses...and they pay us to help ensure their kids' and horses' safety (and success).

This policy works great for us and our clients. I don't think it would be right for everyone, but that is why there are different barns/trainers serving different needs. There definitely isn't a one-size-fits-all barn out there!

Ozone
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:03 AM
I don't know how jumping outside of a lesson is an insurance no-no/liability when every second you are on your horse - even walking is an insurance liability. Every single boarder barn has insurance regardless and whether you hit the deck over a fence or at the walk and get hurt it all boils down to the same ol' liability - potential insurance crasher so whomever said no jumping because of insurance ... I think that is a fetched statement ;)

We are allowed to jump outside of lessons. There are some riders that ride just to ride, they are not in our show going crew so I do not think there is a right to say "since your not taking lesson and not showing you cannot jump your own horse".

We have gotten in so many boarders because at other barns they can only jump at certain times or can flat when there is a trainer around etc.

As long as you are 18 you can jump. As long as there is someone around (doesn't have to be a trainer) you can jump. We have a resident trainer and do shows many of us have no desire to jump big solo, others do and then we have those who won't even sit on their horse without the trainer psysically there.

Ozone
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:07 AM
We are very selective about who we take on as clients. The adults are generally competent horse people, not to mention highly intelligent people in general. As adult riders, they own their own horses and are aware of their and their horses' limitations. Of course they don't want to jeopardize their training and hard work by pushing their limits without a qualified eye on the ground. So if they do jump alone it is over much smaller jumps and they work on basics that don't require trainer standing there.

We don't allow the juniors under 18 the same freedom. Not because they aren't competent, but because they are still MINORS!



This is exactly how our barn is ran. Being Selective is the only way to keep it safe and... sane :yes:

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:20 AM
I don't know how jumping outside of a lesson is an insurance no-no/liability when every second you are on your horse - even walking is an insurance liability. Every single boarder barn has insurance regardless and whether you hit the deck over a fence or at the walk and get hurt it all boils down to the same ol' liability - potential insurance crasher so whomever said no jumping because of insurance ... I think that is a fetched statement ;)


I can 100% assure you there are a multitude of insurance policies out there that specifically state no jumping when outside of policy holder's control. You get a kid out there that disregards that, jumps, and breaks their neck you're pretty screwed.

Similar to the helmet requirement in many policies. The insurance companies have looked at any possible guidelines they can install to limit their liability in this extremely dangerous sport. It's not like their insuring a roller rink. No, they don't lay down precautionary 'walking' guidelines, but then there's only so much you can do at the walk. Too many variables when jumping, from 18" to 5' in fact, plus you add that timber factor. Safer bet just to outlaw it entirely, and not a fetched statement.

luvs2ridewbs
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:22 AM
To those who do not like the "no jumping outside of lessons", would this be a good compromise- No jumping without an instructor present? That means you don't need to be in a lesson to jump but the trainer does need to be around (in the ring riding, teaching another lesson, maybe even in the barn within view of the ring). Most h/j show barns I've been at have adopted this policy.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:26 AM
""Similar to the helmet requirement in many policies. The insurance companies have looked at any possible guidelines they can install to limit their liability in this extremely dangerous sport. It's not like their insuring a roller rink. No, they don't lay down precautionary 'walking' guidelines, but then there's only so much you can do at the walk. Too many variables when jumping, from 18" to 5' in fact, plus you add that timber factor. Safer bet just to outlaw it entirely, and not a fetched statement."" quote

My answer to that is that there are lots of policies out there also that DO allow coverage for jumping outside of a lesson and if the BO wanted to they could get one. The fact is that it is the CHOICE of who is buying the insurance. Not that the coverage is not readily available.

Beau Cheval
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:26 AM
First barn was incredibly local (6 local C, B, A shows a year on average) but trying to be more in some ways. The rule there was no jumping without a trainer or a parent.


New barn is trainer owned. We don't usually follow the local circuit, but we do do VT, HITS, and Hamptons in the summer as well as Garden State, and sometimes Capitol Challenge. Very good trainer, but not a lot of effort as far as showing goes. No jumping outside of lessons. It's kind of a rule that everyone knows so no one says anything. I've jumped with my dad a couple of times.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:29 AM
Only problem with that Luvs2ride is it interferes with trainer trying to get done whatever she's trying to get done. If it's a trainer like me inevitably we can't keep our mouths shut and before long presto! you had a quick 20 minute lesson that no one paid for, and horsey that was supposed to be getting schooled has been walking around the ring learning nothing :)

It does greatly depend on the barn and program. I am most familiar with a training program that is already chalk full of lessons, rides and schooling, and when you jump twice a week in a lesson there really is no reason for horse to be out jumping a third day. I think in these programs this issue is rarely even broached.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:32 AM
""Similar to the helmet requirement in many policies. The insurance companies have looked at any possible guidelines they can install to limit their liability in this extremely dangerous sport. It's not like their insuring a roller rink. No, they don't lay down precautionary 'walking' guidelines, but then there's only so much you can do at the walk. Too many variables when jumping, from 18" to 5' in fact, plus you add that timber factor. Safer bet just to outlaw it entirely, and not a fetched statement."" quote

My answer to that is that there are lots of policies out there also that DO allow coverage for jumping outside of a lesson and if the BO wanted to they could get one. The fact is that it is the CHOICE of who is buying the insurance. Not that the coverage is not available.

It may be regionally affected, or it may be cost prohibitive. If you expect the insurance company to take on more liability than expect to pay more in premiums. I know when I was shopping for insurance (CA) "no jumping outside policy holder's supervision" was a pretty standard clause in each policy I researched.

Elmstead
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:35 AM
I agree with Ozone about the insurance situation. Liability is liability...whether jumping, hacking, walking, grooming. Our company has never asked about our specific jumping policies. They know we board/ride/train horses and that we jump. That's all they need to know. :-0

A barn owners' liability exposure is probably the same (ie: HIGH) regardless of discipline. So this is all the more reason for all barn owners to be cautious and vigilant about safety and make policies that fit their program. And when it comes to minors (more specifically- other people's kids!), you can never be too careful!

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:42 AM
It may be regionally affected, or it may be cost prohibitive. If you expect the insurance company to take on more liability than expect to pay more in premiums. I know when I was shopping for insurance (CA) "no jumping outside policy holder's supervision" was a pretty standard clause in each policy I researched.

Anyone who has ever worked in insurance (me) knows that CA is a different ball of wax altogether! And yes, I am in total agreement that the more liability you take on, the more premium you will have to pay. But if my insurance application that I fill out every year is any indication, the company is most interested in the dollar value of horses under my care and how many lessons to non-boarders we do a week and how high we jump on premises.

This is a BO/BM/trainer decision. Based on a lot of factors and circumstances. My point is that the coverage IS readily available if you want it.

The "insurance" excuse is a very plausible excuse (that your average person will not challenge or question- and will shut most people up) to give to people who are asking if they could jump outside lessons. I think this is the point everyone is dancing around. Whether it be for increased revenue ( if you want to jump your horse you have to pay for a lesson) or increased control of activities (I don't want you undoing all the horses training while I am not looking) or just plain safety of everyone.

Am I saying that everyone that uses the "insurance" excuse is fibbing? Absolutely not at all! I am sure some policies say "no". But there are a lot of policies that say "yes", too.

luvs2ridewbs
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:45 AM
Very true Dags. I don't think hypothetical trainer should give advice away for free. But during an already schedualed walk break, a quick 5 to 10 jumps doesn't interfere too much. As for giving a mini lesson, thats something the trainer can control.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 11:08 AM
Kind of depends. Truthfully, some folks shouldn't be out there jumping by themselves, some never know when to stop, some are so ego inflated they have no consideration for their own limitations or their horse. If you could limit these occasions to "Sparky just needs to pop over a quick 2'6" course today to loosen up for show this weekend, no need for a lesson, so can I just squeeze a few jumps in while you're hacking Dudley?" then this is a fantastic policy. But if after that Spoiled Suzie, who never thinks she is jumping high enough in her lessons and her pony is already a ducker, wants the same privilege, goes out there, repeatedly chips in and adds out until pony is, again, ducking out, then chances are a lesson is going to end up taught.

If you are in a casual program and jump once a week or twice a month in lessons I can see why the "no jumping" policy seems odd and restrictive. But for those already jumping 2 & 3 times a week in lessons there is no real reason for horse to be jumping any more fences AND it eliminates all the potentially scary or training-damaging scenarios.

Truth be told in no jump barns - if you have the competence and horse to handle schooling a small course while trainer is hacking they are typically not going to have a problem with that, but the "no jump" policy does save them from having to worry about those they are not so confident in, and establishes a baseline of rules that cannot be blamed on a particular student bias.

For sure you can find a policy that allows jumping under a blue moon in a vacant barn while trainer is in china - but for the program I was running, and for many strictly regimented show/training programs I would guess, it never occurred to me (or my clients I believe) that there was a need for such a policy.


(and yes, growing up there was a no jump policy - and this was before helmet rules existed! - and we thwarted that no jump policy every chance we could :D)

RugBug
Jan. 12, 2010, 11:34 AM
it eliminates all the potentially scary scenarios.


AT my barn, most of the trainer's clients will only pop over some small stuff from time to time so it's not a huge deal.

It's usually the people who don't ride with the trainer that are frightening. Not all, but some certainly shouldn't be attempting the things that they do. The scariest part is that while they usually won't reset the fences that are part of the trainer's course, they will put placing poles out that have no logical striding or sometimes will set gymnastics with no logical striding. Watching these poor horses struggle through some horribly set 'exercise' is sad. It's also a bit like driving by a car accident, you can't look away.

And the issue of broken jumps is a big one. We've had numerous jumps broken by those jumping outside of lessons and they do nothing to repair the jump. That irks ME because as the Show Manager I'm the one that oversees the jumps. It's a lot of extra work/money/wrangling up volunteers to fix/replace something that we shouldn't have to. To be fair, we did just have someone fix a brush box his horse smashed, but it's the first time someone has done that.

Aliascml
Jan. 12, 2010, 11:56 AM
No jumping outside of lessons is allowed at the barn where I ride.

Most of the clients and boarders are minors and there are a few adults that board, but I don't believe they would choose to jump outside of their lessons if they had the option.

SaddleFitterVA
Jan. 12, 2010, 12:22 PM
I have a private barn with boarders, but no trainer. I have intelligent, adults who board with me. I expect them to use good judgement in riding, and that includes being safe.

Since there is no instructor or trainer, obviously that cannot be a rule, but I prefer no jumping alone, and by that, I mean, when nobody else is on the farm. If you wanted to jump and someone was around, that would be ok, but from a safety perspective I don't want them jumping if nobody else is on the farm.

I've got one horse boarded out, and I have no idea if it is a rule, but, I won't jump alone, and if I'm riding in the ring and a lesson is going on, I have asked if they mind if I just follow the pattern, and so far, it has been ok. I'm only there for January though and I have no intention of being a difficult boarder or whining about rules. Possibly because I have a farm, and make my rules, so therefore I respect the rules of other's farms.

eqsiu
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:14 PM
I've never boarded at a barn with such a rule. #1- I prefer to board at the most convenient barn, and then trailer to lessons if my instructor is somewhere else. #2- How does one learn to manage jumping at a show without practice?

There are only a few jumping restrictions that I see as reasonable. Requiring helmets, not jumping alone, and not jumping where/when it would interfere with lessons.

Then again, I am from the eventing world. Eventers tend to be more self-sufficient than some (I really mean only some) hunter/jumper riders. No one but you can ride your horse on event grounds, so if you need that much assistance from a trainer you're screwed. I have met several hunter trainers that do alot to convince their clients that such self-sufficiency is impossible. I guess if your student thinks she is incapable of training or riding her horse on her own you tend to get more money in lessons and training.

Go Fish
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:18 PM
When the insurance underwriters are evaluating risk, they look at statistics to determine what they will cover and the exclusions they will add to your policy. Jumping horses is probably statistically more risk than say, western pleasure.

If a potential BO/trainer who is applying for insurance is running a jumping barn, the insurance company will try and mitigate that risk. The insurance company cannot control the client. Thus they try and control the circumstances in which the most risk is present by dictating the terms of the activity.

It doesn't mean you can't jump without a trainer present, it just means that the BO/trainer won't be covered if something happens. Pretty stupid, but people do it all the time.

I think you also might be surprised how many insurance policies require no jumping without a trainer present...it's just that a lot of people don't bother to read their policy! ;)

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:28 PM
I think you also might be surprised how many insurance policies require no jumping without a trainer present...it's just that a lot of people don't bother to read their policy! ;)

:)

I promise you (not you Fish, others) it's not a giant hunter-jumper conspiracy to keep their students codependent (gawd that gets old). And truthfully I can allow my students to function entirely and independently on their own by simply keeping my mouth shut (granted difficult, but entirely possible. and done. they're given the test, I shut up, off they go, back they come and omg there's input available!!)

Go Fish
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:30 PM
It should also be mentioned that horseshows carry liability insurance. It may even be required by whatever governing entity sanctions the show. I would hate to be paying that premium...:lol:

rugbygirl
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:38 PM
This is a BO/BM/trainer decision. Based on a lot of factors and circumstances. My point is that the coverage IS readily available if you want it.

Not everywhere. There is really only one Equine Liability Insurance provider in this part of Canada. Not sure on exactly how the clause is worded, but if you agree that no one jumps on the property, period, your premiums are cut by more than half. If you agree that jumping is only allowed with a qualified person present (trainer/instructor) then they agree to cover you.

I don't think you can even BUY Insurance for a barn here without the "qualified person" clause. Sort of the like the helmet clause. Which applies to everyone, minor or adult.

Most underwriters have stopped offering Equine-related insurance altogether (here.) It's apparently quite a challenge for people trying to set up new facilities. The same provider is one of the only ones who will cover Insurance on the horses themselves.

ETA: I've ridden at 5 different stables, and each one had a "No Jumping without a trainer/instructor Present" rule.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:44 PM
Wow! That's a super tough area. I am getting the idea that this varies widely by region?

HMMMMMMMMM... another thought: IS it the TRAINER policies that say "no"? The FARM policies don't exclude it but the TRAINER LIABILITY policies say no? After all, why would a trainer liability policy cover something that happens when the trainer is not in control of the situation?? THAT makes sense... we may be discussing apples and oranges here.

How do the western riders' barns or saddleseat barnsanywhere get insured - they don't wear helmets? What area are you in?

Jingles that someone from another carrier is reading this and offer some coverage for you guys!

sptraining
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:58 PM
I got lucky growing up. I stabled at a back yard barn and pretty much had an entire set of jumps and the jumping arena to myself. I'd trailer out for lessons on the weekends but ride a bunch of other horses at the barn during the week. I've been jumping on my own since I was 15 (and showing - oh my!).

Then I moved to LA and got grandfathered into the barn I was at. I was an amateur and still allowed to jump on my own. No one really said anything. Then I switched barns and they required me to carry my own insurance to jump on my own (even as an amateur). I guess they figured if something happened and my horse ran into someone else, they wouldn't be liable since I was insured.

This whole amateur/professional thing is really annoying at times. I know lots of amateurs that aren't 'allowed' to jump on their own who could run circles around some professionals who are paid to jump on their own. It comes down to more of a liability issue for the barn owner than anything else.

rugbygirl
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:12 PM
Wow! That's a super tough area. I am getting the idea that this varies widely by region?

I think so, definitely different from US to Canada! Some provinces have government insurance providers for different things, others are subsidized. Alberta (where I am) is likely one of the more Privatized areas. And we seriously have ONE carrier.


How do the western riders' barns or saddleseat barnsanywhere get insured - they don't wear helmets? What area are you in?

So, the way I've seen the rules presented, helmets are only required for everyone when Jumping. In many English barns, all minors have to wear helmets, but usually adults can choose...but that might just be a barn rule. Dressage riders seldom wear helmets beyond a certain level either.

According to our Insurance contracts, from what I understand, Jumping and XC are the killer events. You can have kids doing Junior rodeo stuff, barrel racing, steer wrestling IN THE SAME FACILITY, helmetless...but go over a 19" cross-rail and you must have an ASTM approved helmet.

I suspect it has to do with the fact that Equine Canada rules require helmets for Jumping in competition (for everyone) so the Insurance company defines "reasonable precautions" per the competition rules. Rodeo/Western Events define a different set of safety stuff, so the carrier has to make the rules based on that. Just my guess though.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:23 PM
Wow! That's a super tough area. I am getting the idea that this varies widely by region?

HMMMMMMMMM... another thought: IS it the TRAINER policies that say "no"? The FARM policies don't exclude it but the TRAINER LIABILITY policies say no? After all, why would a trainer liability policy cover something that happens when the trainer is not in control of the situation?? THAT makes sense... we may be discussing apples and oranges here.

How do the western riders' barns or saddleseat barnsanywhere get insured - they don't wear helmets? What area are you in?

Jingles that someone from another carrier is reading this and offer some coverage for you guys!

Because we trainers have to also carry a Care Custody & Control policy to save our asses when you wreck the horses technically in our "control" :D (totally tongue & cheek, but yeah, there's more than just the liability coverage to consider)

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:25 PM
How is that a response to my statement?

moserorr
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:27 PM
Wow! The "no jumping unless you are taking a lesson" rule sounds to me more like greedy trainers looking for more lessons. I can see having safety parameters, but triners should be teaching their students to think on their own, not be told how to do every little thing. I see this more and more, with the industry creating dependence, instead of truly learni ng. A good trainer will strive to make themselves obsolete to their studnts, not hold them back to keep the income.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:31 PM
How is that a response to my statement?

Because those horses "in training" with us are in "our control" as per required CCC policies. If something happens to the horse there's a good chance that policy is at risk of being held responsible, even if we weren't there.

eqsiu
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:32 PM
you are paying out the wazoo to have a perfectly programmed show animal and teaching it to stop on a random Sunday then complaining when it stops in the ring probably aggravates the trainer.

But wouldn't it be nice if riders knew enough before showing that jumping on their own wouldn't screw up the horse? And if they would indeed screw up the horse, they surely aren't competent enough to be showing. Having your perfectly programmed by another person horse pack you around a course means you don't deserve the ribbon won. The person training the horse does.

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:33 PM
Having your perfectly programmed by another person horse pack you around a course means you don't deserve the ribbon won. The person training the horse does.


Right, but we don't tell them that ;)

costco_muffins
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:38 PM
I admit I don't get the whole "insurance" excuse. It may cost MORE in premium to get coverage for this. I have shopped around insurance carriers on several occassions, getting quotes to see if I could save money by switching liability carriers, and have yet to find one that makes this stipulation: " we will NOT insure you if you allow jumping outside of lessons". I am not saying there aren't carriers hat do not allow this, just that it is easily possible to find liability insurance that WILL cover this situation. I am very skeptical of this excuse.

I feel it is the decision of the owners and trainers of the facility whether or not this is allowed. Their comfort level. Lots of different factors.

I completely agree with you. For my Godparents who have their own barn and indoor with no borders, their requirement of an instructor with insurance is more of a CYA. They used to allow anything, but then an idiot teenager brought her non-horsey grandpa as her supervision, paid the arena usage fee, proceeded to rip and tear around barrels and get herself thrown off and sent in an ambulance to the emergency room. This prompted the "no speed events" (gaming/jumping) without an instructor with an individual insurance policy rule. Needing an instructor to have individual insurance if not specifically listed on the farm's policy WAS a stipulation by their farm insurance.

But man, after seeing what some irresponsible people can do to footing in a short time, I would be wary of allowing anyone and anything to happen in my arena.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:43 PM
If the horse is injured in his stall at a barn not owned by you... it is the FARM's Care, Custody and Control policy that will handle, even if he is in training with you.

If you are on it and take it over a fence and it breaks it's leg, that probably your policy. Or if injured on a farm that is owned by you, your policy... Or you are trailering it in your trailer to a show.... all you. Do you own a farm?

My question is... you copied my response and then answered it with a statement that didn't follow along with my statement. CCC is to do with the horse and we are talking about injuries to riders.

My statement had to do with trying to get everyone on the same page in regards to making sure we were talking about the same types of policies... comparing apples to apples, as it were.

I am getting the inkling (based on the fact that I have never had a problem finding STABLE/FARM insurance that covered this jumping while not under instruction and some people cannot.. but then again I don't live in CA or Canada) what is available to buy might vary widely by region, and that TRAINER liability policies may indeed not cover liability for someone jumping when not under the trainer's control/ not in a lesson (and why should it?) as opposed to the FARM's liability policy that will cover everything that happens on the property.

AND I am sure that polcies vary company to company based on the types of claims that are generated by the policies. One company may not have the stipulation that "no jumping is allowed outside supervised instruction" because they have not had any claims submitted to them arising from such activities, while another may exclude it because they have had a bunch of those types of claims and their actuaries have freaked out about the losses.

Janet
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:44 PM
It should also be mentioned that horseshows carry liability insurance. It may even be required by whatever governing entity sanctions the show. I would hate to be paying that premium...:lol: It is actually not that bad.

RugBug
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:49 PM
Having your perfectly programmed by another person horse pack you around a course means you don't deserve the ribbon won. The person training the horse does.

Maybe, maybe not. Do the people who buy a seasoned campaigner not deserve their ribbons because they didn't train the horse? Who deserves what is a slippery slope to go down. IMO, the one paying the bills and putting in the trip deserves the ribbons: green horse, packer, pro-prepped, whatever. There are no bonus points for doing the training yourself.

A good trainer develops independent riders with or without jumping on their own. There are ways to develop independence (not teaching every stride, teaching self-evaluation, etc). Bad practice doesn't make you any better than the person who is practicing correctly under the guidance of a trainer.

IMO, if a rider knows enough to set a course, evaluate mistakes and FIX those mistakes...then by all means, jump alone. If not, it might be better to leave the jumping to lessons.

However, even that said, if you can't do that and want to jump on your own and don't care how quickly you and/or your horse progresses, do whatever you want...within the rules of your barn. Don't like the rules? Go elsewhere.

tabula rashah
Jan. 12, 2010, 02:59 PM
Just reading this makes me sooooo glad that I have my own place and previous to that always boarded at reasonable places!!! Out of all the reasons that are stated for not allowing- my favorite it that they might "mess the horse up". Seriously, it's my horse, my money - if I want to teach my horse to stop and pop every fence then buck upon landing- well then, so be it.

Equibrit
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:09 PM
There are only 4 states that do not have equine liability statutes which would limit the civil liability of those involved in such activities.; CA, MD, NV, & NY
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/armpequineliability.htm

Go Fish
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:16 PM
Having your perfectly programmed by another person horse pack you around a course means you don't deserve the ribbon won. The person training the horse does.

Geeez...here we go. Can't afford a BNT, huh?

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:22 PM
Seriously, it's my horse, my money - if I want to teach my horse to stop and pop every fence then buck upon landing- well then, so be it.

That's totally fine, but if you are paying trainer $1000+/month to see some progress (which usually = win ribbons) then you cannot complain when progress is not seen due to practices beyond the control of the trainer (ie: jumping w/o supervision). Again, this is something that is going to vary greatly depending on the type of program/barn you are in.

Per who's liability it is, I tend to take the safe route and consider it everyone's liability. It's too sue happy out there. Certainly the farm liability will take a hit if an accident occurs on their property. I leased property and was required to maintain liability and CCC to cover damages to/from "my" horses and "my" horse accidents on their property. Kid jumps, doesn't check for cockeyed landing rail, horse lands on rail, breaks ankle, kid hurt, broken jumps, etc - we'll have Farm Liability step up saying the horse is in my care, my responsibility & falls under my liability claim. Who knows what the equine insurance will cover. Cover the bases whenever you can, no jumping outside of supervised "lessons" (and really, you can define lessons however you would like to make your customers happy) seems like a simple way to wipe out a ton of potential liabilities.

eqsiu
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:26 PM
Geeez...here we go. Can't afford a BNT, huh?

Back when I was competing, I drove my horse 4 hours to a BNT (CCI**** rider). Local works fine now. Anyway, BNT was a big fan of independence and since eventers can't have other riders on their horses at events, why would an eventer want so damn much hand holding? Most of the events I went were not ones my BNT went to, because of where we both lived and the USEA areas we lived in. Guess what- I went to events with no trainer and still managed to clean up. There is a point in each person's riding where they should know how to ride their courses and how to adjust for their weaknesses and those of their horse.

smm20
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:29 PM
The reason why my barn does not allow jumping outside of lessons unless you own the jumps is an insurance issue. Because the barn does not own any of the jumps that are set up, they are not liable if you get in an accident jumping alone. However, the owner of the jumps could be liable.

We have several jumping arenas and each jumping trainer owns her own jumps. I've signed a liability waiver with my trainer, but not the other three. So, in theory, I could go and jump one of the other trainers' jumps by myself, get in an accident, and attempt to sue the other trainer, since I did not sign a waiver with her. This is why you cannot jump any jumps but your own, or your trainer's. Each trainer has her own rules regarding use of jumps and poles when not in a lesson, and I feel that this is fair, because the trainer owns the jumps and she can do what she wants with them.

If I wanted to jump on my own time, I could purchase, set up, and take down my own jumps, but I choose not to.

RugBug
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:40 PM
Back when I was competing, I drove my horse 4 hours to a BNT (CCI**** rider). Local works fine now. Anyway, BNT was a big fan of independence and since eventers can't have other riders on their horses at events, why would an eventer want so damn much hand holding? Most of the events I went were not ones my BNT went to, because of where we both lived and the USEA areas we lived in. Guess what- I went to events with no trainer and still managed to clean up. There is a point in each person's riding where they should know how to ride their courses and how to adjust for their weaknesses and those of their horse.

I'm sure you know that eventing is a very different world from hunters. At the basic level, if you get over the jump cleanly in eventing, you're good. That doesn't cut it in hunters, especially as you go up the ranks. A slight twist or an uneven leg, jumping over the shoulder a little, etc and you're out, let alone a significant chip or long distance.

While that isn't as much of an issue in Jumper-land, the nuances of hunter land can often mean the practicing by yourself can keep you out of the ribbons unless you are experienced enough to feel all the flaws without ground help.

rugbygirl
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:44 PM
^ with Hunters too, I still think the vast majority of clients/competitors are Juniors...and usually Mommy and Daddy Junior expect results out of the trainer. It is therefore in the trainer's best interest to forbid any activities that might slow the progress or injure the horse.

Really, I've seen a few times now where the trainer is held 100% accountable for the laziness of a kid by the kid's parents!


Adult Amateurs are so much more forgiving :lol: But seriously, an AA is going to point the finger solely at themselves if they injure a horse doing something stupid. I can see letting adults jump on their own. Kids...SOOOOOO many reasons to want them supervised (though maybe not a formal lesson every time).

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:49 PM
The reason why my barn does not allow jumping outside of lessons unless you own the jumps is an insurance issue. Because the barn does not own any of the jumps that are set up, they are not liable if you get in an accident jumping alone. However, the owner of the jumps could be liable.

Not true. BO could be on the hook also If this is happening on their property with their knowledge and permission.

rugbygirl
Jan. 12, 2010, 03:51 PM
^ don't forget the line that Insurance adjusters LOVE..."implied permission through patterns of uncorrected behaviour." :no:

Even if you have a sign that says "barn not liable for such and such, ALL riders must do x and y" but you consistently let slide one or two people NOT doing x and y...you just became 100% liable for allowing it to happen.

Giddy-up
Jan. 12, 2010, 04:17 PM
Moved to a new barn--asked while looking about jumping on your own (and other rules). Not allowed ever. Must be in lesson with a trainer. Trainer is not the BO (if that matters).

Personally it does kind of suck for me (I am competent enough to hop over a few jumps with supervision), but I understand. It's their barn, their rules which is why I asked ahead of time. It's also their jumps--which are nice & not cheap to replace (which how many people do pay for what they break?). If I want to jump, I can trailer my horse over to my trainer's & take a lesson. Or I can always lesson with the barn trainer (which isn't an issue). Luckily my horse is an older been there horse so I don't really jump unless we are showing.

When I boarded at my trainer's barn--I was allowed to jump outside of lessons. But honestly I really didn't. I didn't want to jump "big" without my trainer's input (over 3'6") & I always had somebody there with me when I did jump a little (usually about 3'). My trainer also had limited boarders & would have no problems telling anybody to stop if he didn't approve.

FWIW--I have boarded in the free for all jumping barns with no rules. It was scary to be honest. People had no clue how to set lines or set jumps. Just throw down 2 jumps in a row & who cares if you are jumping an oxer backwards? Run at it faster. And jump as high as you want too! :eek: Talk about broken jumps. The BO would then yell at boarders, but the people who should have been listening never did. It also made riding in general a headache cause you never knew if people were just running around or running around at jumps (lots of drive-bys). So much for "sharing" the ring...which was 200x80 so not impossible. I don't miss that crap. :rolleyes:

Equibrit
Jan. 12, 2010, 06:29 PM
48 States have similar legislation - it limits liability unless you commit an act or ommission which is inherently dangerous; Banning riders from jumping is neither reasonable nor prudent in my view.

Georgia

West's Code of Georgia Annotated Currentness. Title 4. Animals. Chapter 12. Injuries from Equine or Llama Activities. § 4-12-1. Legislative intent

Statute Details (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('statute_details/details.htm','details','width=400,height=300, scrollbars=yes'))
Printable Version (http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('statute_details/print.htm','print','width=400,height=300, scrollbars=yes'))
Citation: GA ST §§ 4-12-1 - 5

Citation: Ga. Code Ann., §§ 4-12-1 - 5

Summary: This act stipulates that an equine sponsor or professional, or a llama sponsor or professional, or any other person, including corporations, are immune from liability for the death or injury of a participant, which resulted from the inherent risks of equine or llama activities. However, there are exceptions to this rule: A person will be held liable for injuries if they display a willful and wanton or intentional disregard for the safety of the participant and if they fail to make reasonable and prudent efforts in ensuring the safety of the participant.

Statute in Full:
§ 4-12-1. Legislative intent

The General Assembly recognizes that persons who participate in equine activities or llama activities may incur injuries as a result of the risks involved in such activities. The General Assembly also finds that the state and its citizens derive numerous economic and personal benefits from such activities. The General Assembly finds, determines, and declares that this chapter is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety. It is, therefore, the intent of the General Assembly to encourage equine activities and llama activities by limiting the civil liability of those involved in such activities.
Laws 1991, p. 680, § 1; Laws 1995, p. 335, § 1.
§ 4-12-2. Definitions

As used in this chapter, the term:
(1) "Engages in a llama activity" means riding, training, assisting in providing medical treatment of, driving, or being a passenger upon a llama, whether mounted or unmounted, or any person assisting a participant or show management. The term "engages in a llama activity" does not include being a spectator at a llama activity, except in cases where the spectator places himself or herself in an unauthorized area and in immediate proximity to the llama activity.
(2) "Engages in an equine activity" means riding, training, assisting in providing medical treatment of, driving, or being a passenger upon an equine, whether mounted or unmounted, or any person assisting a participant or show management. The term "engages in an equine activity" does not include being a spectator at an equine activity, except in cases where the spectator places himself or herself in an unauthorized area and in immediate proximity to the equine activity.
(3) "Equine" means a horse, pony, mule, donkey, or hinny.
(4) "Equine activity" means:
(A) Equine shows, fairs, competitions, performances, or parades that involve any or all breeds of equines and any of the equine disciplines, including, but not limited to, dressage, hunter and jumper horse shows, grand prix jumping, three-day events, combined training, rodeos, driving, pulling, cutting, polo, steeplechasing, English and western performance riding, endurance trail riding and western games, and hunting;
(B) Equine training or teaching activities, or both;
(C) Boarding equines;
(D) Riding, inspecting, or evaluating an equine belonging to another, whether or not the owner has received some monetary consideration or other thing of value for the use of the equine or is permitting a prospective purchaser of the equine to ride, inspect, or evaluate the equine;
(E) Rides, trips, hunts, or other equine activities of any type however informal or impromptu that are sponsored by an equine activity sponsor;
(F) Placing or replacing horseshoes on an equine; and
(G) Examining or administering medical treatment to an equine by a veterinarian.
(5) "Equine activity sponsor" means an individual, group, club, partnership, or corporation, whether or not the sponsor is operating for profit or nonprofit, which sponsors, organizes, or provides the facilities for an equine activity, including, but not limited to, pony clubs; 4-H clubs; hunt clubs; riding clubs; school and college sponsored classes, programs, and activities; therapeutic riding programs; and operators, instructors, and promoters of equine facilities, including, but not limited to, stables, clubhouses, ponyride strings, fairs, and arenas at which the activity is held.
(6) "Equine professional" means a person engaged for compensation in:
(A) Instructing a participant or renting to a participant an equine for the purpose of riding, driving, or being a passenger upon the equine;
(B) Renting equipment or tack to a participant; or
(C) Examining or administering medical treatment to an equine as a veterinarian.
(7) "Inherent risks of equine activities" or "inherent risks of llama activities" means those dangers or conditions which are an integral part of equine activities or llama activities, as the case may be, including, but not limited to:
(A) The propensity of the animal to behave in ways that may result in injury, harm, or death to persons on or around them;
(B) The unpredictability of the animal's reaction to such things as sounds, sudden movement, and unfamiliar objects, persons, or other animals;
(C) Certain hazards such as surface and subsurface conditions;
(D) Collisions with other animals or objects; and
(E) The potential of a participant to act in a negligent manner that may contribute to injury to the participant or others, such as failing to maintain control over the animal or not acting within his or her ability.
(8) "Llama" means a South American camelid which is an animal of the genus lama, commonly referred to as a "one llama," including llamas, alpacas, guanacos, and vicunas.
(9) "Llama activity" means:
(A) Llama shows, fairs, competitions, performances, packing events, or parades that involve any or all breeds of llamas;
(B) Using llamas to pull carts or to carry packs or other items;
(C) Using llamas to pull travois-type carriers during rescue or emergency situations;
(D) Llama training or teaching activities or both;
(E) Taking llamas on public relations trips or visits to schools or nursing homes;
(F) Participating in commercial packing trips in which participants pay a llama professional to be a guide on a hike leading llamas;
(G) Boarding llamas;
(H) Riding, inspecting, or evaluating a llama belonging to another, whether or not the owner has received some monetary consideration or other thing of value for the use of the llama or is permitting a prospective purchaser of the llama to ride, inspect, or evaluate the llama;
(I) Using llamas in wool production;
(J) Rides, trips, or other llama activities of any type however informal or impromptu that are sponsored by a llama activity sponsor; and
(K) Trimming the nails of a llama.
(10) "Llama activity sponsor" means an individual, group, club, partnership, or corporation, whether or not the sponsor is operating for profit or nonprofit, which sponsors, organizes, or provides the facilities for a llama activity, including, but not limited to, llama clubs, 4-H clubs, hunt clubs, riding clubs, school and college-sponsored classes, programs, and activities, therapeutic riding programs, and operators, instructors, and promoters of llama facilities, including but not limited to stables, clubhouses, fairs, and arenas at which the activity is held.
(11) "Llama professional" means a person engaged for compensation:
(A) In instructing a participant or renting to a participant a llama for the purpose of riding, driving, or being a passenger upon the llama; or
(B) In renting equipment or tack to a participant.
(12) "Participant" means any person, whether amateur or professional, who engages in an equine activity or who engages in a llama activity, whether or not a fee is paid to participate in such activity.
Laws 1991, p. 680, § 1; Laws 1995, p. 335, § 2.
§ 4-12-3. Immunity from liability; exceptions

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this Code section, an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, a llama activity sponsor, a llama professional, or any other person, which shall include a corporation or partnership, shall not be liable for an injury to or the death of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities or from the inherent risks of llama activities and, except as provided in subsection (b) of this Code section, no participant or participant's representative shall make any claim against, maintain an action against, or recover from an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, a llama activity sponsor, a llama professional, or any other person for injury, loss, damage, or death of the participant resulting from any of the inherent risks of equine activities or resulting from any of the inherent risks of llama activities.
(b) Nothing in subsection (a) of this Code section shall prevent or limit the liability of an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, a llama activity sponsor, a llama professional, or any other person if the equine activity sponsor, equine professional, llama activity sponsor, llama professional, or person:
(1) (A) Provided the equipment or tack, and knew or should have known that the equipment or tack was faulty, and such equipment or tack was faulty to the extent that it did cause the injury.
(B) Provided the animal and failed to make reasonable and prudent efforts to determine the ability of the participant to engage safely in the equine activity or llama activity and to safely manage the particular animal based on the participant's representations of his or her ability;
(2) Owns, leases, rents, or otherwise is in lawful possession and control of the land or facilities upon which the participant sustained injuries because of a dangerous latent condition which was known or should have been known to the equine activity sponsor, equine professional, llama activity sponsor, llama professional, or person and for which warning signs have not been conspicuously posted;
(3) Commits an act or omission that constitutes willful or wanton disregard for the safety of the participant, and that act or omission caused the injury; or
(4) Intentionally injures the participant.
(c) Nothing in subsection (a) of this Code section shall prevent or limit the liability of an equine activity sponsor, equine professional, llama activity sponsor, or llama professional under liability provisions as set forth in the products liability laws.
Laws 1991, p. 680, § 1; Laws 1995, p. 335, § 3.
§ 4-12-4. Warning notices

(a) Every equine professional and every equine activity sponsor shall post and maintain signs which contain the warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section. Such signs shall be placed in a clearly visible location on or near stables, corrals, or arenas where the equine professional or the equine activity sponsor conducts equine activities. The warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section shall appear on the sign in black letters, with each letter to be a minimum of one inch in height. Every written contract entered into by an equine professional or by an equine activity sponsor for the providing of professional services, instruction, or the rental of equipment or tack or an equine to a participant, whether or not the contract involves equine activities on or off the location or site of the equine professional's or the equine activity sponsor's business, shall contain in clearly readable print the warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section.
(b) The signs and contracts described in subsection (a) of this Code section shall contain the following warning notice:
--WARNING--
Under Georgia law, an equine activity sponsor or equine professional is not liable for an injury to or the death of a participant in equine activities resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities, pursuant to Chapter 12 of Title 4 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated.
(c) Failure to comply with the requirements concerning warning signs and notices provided in this Code section shall prevent an equine activity sponsor or equine professional from invoking the privileges of immunity provided by this chapter.
Laws 1991, p. 680, § 1.
§ 4-12-5. Warning notices relating to llama activities

(a) Every llama professional and every llama activity sponsor shall post and maintain signs which contain the warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section. Such signs shall be placed in a clearly visible location on or near stables, corrals, pens, or arenas where the llama professional or the llama activity sponsor conducts llama activities. The warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section shall appear on the sign in black letters, with each letter to be a minimum of one inch in height. Every written contract entered into by a llama professional or by a llama activity sponsor for the providing of professional services, instruction, or the rental of equipment or tack or a llama to a participant, whether or not the contract involves llama activities on or off the location or site of the llama professional's or the llama activity sponsor's business, shall contain in clearly readable print the warning notice specified in subsection (b) of this Code section.
(b) The signs and contracts described in subsection (a) of this Code section shall contain the following warning notice:
--WARNING--
Under Georgia law, a llama activity sponsor or llama professional is not liable for an injury to or the death of a participant in llama activities resulting from the inherent risks of llama activities, pursuant to Chapter 12 of Title 4 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated.
(c) Failure to comply with the requirements concerning warning signs and notices provided in this Code section shall prevent a llama activity sponsor or llama professional from invoking the privileges of immunity provided by this chapter

sycamoreshowmom
Jan. 12, 2010, 07:01 PM
I don't think we would choose to board at a barn with this rule. It IS allowed at the barn we ride at.
We are in a small h/j show barn that has boarding and lessons.

Soldier06
Jan. 12, 2010, 07:27 PM
This is interesting to me, I've ridden with a ton of trainers and my mom also rides.

My first pony had a canter "issue" (didn't canter ;)) and would pick it up if encouraged over a jump, he LOVES to jump (still to this day, I've had him for 7 years) and it is still the only 100% reliable tool to get this pony forward no matter what. He doesn't jump all that often to go forward anymore, but we weaned him off of using the jump to encourage go by letting him jump around at the end of a ride. He loves it, and when I school him (he's my sisters now) I will only school him up to 2'9-3', though I showed him in the 3'3 jumpers and I will only school over 2'6 if I have a ground person (my mom mostly).

Next horse was green and retraining from a dressage horse to a hunter and flower boxes= end of the world. She got to jump 1x a week in a lesson or pro ride and then I'd jump probably 20 other jumps throughout the week (2' and under) to get her confident. This was the trainers idea/plan.

My current horse is just dramatic, to him everything can be a big deal. He "jumped" almost everyday for a while (but we're talking like elevated ground poles) for 2 months. They were incorporated into his flatwork till he learned jumping was NBD. I still will pop him over stuff on my own, and have continued to do so even when I started to ride with my new trainer. I am more than capable of jumping this horse and limit my jumping out of a lesson to 10-15 jumps/ride (once a week), rarely exceeding 2'6. I'll change his flatwork up by using a jump as the middle of our figure 8, or practice some trot fences. It's a great way to judge the canter/pace- too much or too little and helps me practice the correct jump canter on the flat. Occasionally I'll let him jump a bigger fence or oxer (3'+) to loosen up and stretch over his back. I won't go jumping around a course, but I will certainly use some fences to supplement my flatwork throughout the week.

With the right rider and horse combo and within reason I don't see jumping w/o a trainer a bad thing

dags
Jan. 12, 2010, 07:34 PM
With the right rider and horse combo and within reason I don't see jumping w/o a trainer a bad thing

I agree, I don't think anyone thinks it's a "bad" idea in competent circumstances. Now whether it's an unnecessary liability, or perhaps not ideal for certain programs, is something I think we are all welcome to have our own opinions on.

luckeys71
Jan. 12, 2010, 09:28 PM
I hadn't really thought of the problem of the horse that is the big chicken and NEEDS to do a lot of jumping. We had one recently at my barn. He had a girl with a great, strong position and a ton of confidence who could jump him without the trainer, although she did come out to school her a good portion of the time. She made great strides with the horse by jumping him almost every day. Would have been an issue previously. Fortunately, not an issue for my young horse, although she can be a bit dramatic about anything new or moved. She has a lot of talent, but is really lazy, so not over jumping her is an issue. I usually don't jump more than a few, especially if she is being really good. The jumping is for me and my confidence and retraining my eye. I've been out of this for a long time and just started the kid jumping last spring.

billiebob
Jan. 12, 2010, 09:59 PM
I think in some cases the "no jumping outside of a lesson" has to be a blanket rule. Sometimes it has to be the same for the 4' people and the just learned to pop crossrails people. It would just suck for the more experienced and responsible people to be punished for someone elses's stupidity. I've never been at a barn where this is a rule, but I get why it could be.

rwh
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:13 PM
I think in some cases the "no jumping outside of a lesson" has to be a blanket rule. Sometimes it has to be the same for the 4' people and the just learned to pop crossrails people. It would just suck for the more experienced and responsible people to be punished for someone elses's stupidity. I've never been at a barn where this is a rule, but I get why it could be.

This. The shouldn't-jump-a-ground-pole types think they're just as good as the 4-footers...I was at a barn where the rule was no jumping without a trainer on the premises. The people who snuck jumps were the ones who were scary/dangerous/made you feel terribly for their poor ponies. One was always bragging about her childhood accomplishments and her great horsemanship and her phenomenal riding/training skills, but every other day was too scared to canter her (never-put-a-foot-wrong) horse. She would then proceed to jump when the trainer wasn't around and would then ask people (myself included) to cover for her...

mypaintwattie
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:14 PM
No jumping outside of a lesson is allowed at our barn. We have 4 H/J trainers, all show at the local and A circuit level, as well as nationally and even up to Spruce. With 400 plus horses at our barn, it is a rule that was established to keep everyone safe. Most barns that I have been at have had this rule, the one that did not is not a pleasurable place to ride at.

Haalter
Jan. 13, 2010, 10:01 AM
How does one learn to manage jumping at a show without practice?
Amazingly enough, people do it all the time. I'd venture to say most of the ammies and kids you see winning at the A shows jump just in lessons. NOT because jumping alone is so terrible, but simply because this is how it works at most of the bigger training barns, and they are the ones with students who win regularly. So yes, people do manage to jump successfully at shows without what you are calling "practice" - they get plenty of practice in lessons with their trainers.

I still remember one barn where I freelanced years ago where the majority of the boarders jumped without trainers. HORROR SHOW! Every time I arrived, I'd have to reset jumps because most of what was set up was things like in-and-outs at impossible distances, oxers that were set up backwards off the only optional turn, jumps set waaay higher than the ability level of any of the riders/horses there, etc. It was like an advertisement for why people should not be jumping on their own. Fine for people who know what they are doing...SCARY for anyone riding in the ring in a place like I am describing. And the barn owner there wondered why her jumps were getting broken so often...

RugBug
Jan. 13, 2010, 11:22 AM
Just last night, 16 yr old is doing ground poles...set by a 14 yr old, who has never set a line before. I walked them after they left the arena thinking I might do some poles with my horse. Ummm...no.

First "distance" was 10'. Second distance (set of three canter poles) was 13.5 feet. Oy. 14 yr old's horse is a good ole short strided QH that usually does adds in lines...the 10' was fine for him. Seeing him reach for the second distance was not fun...and listening to the 16 yr old tell her why and what to do was even worse. Thankfully it wasn't real jumps.

Now...we don't have the rule (other than adult present when a minor jumps), and this was just ground poles, but that's one reason barns have this rule. To stop people who think they know what they are doing but have no clue.

LookinSouth
Jan. 13, 2010, 11:36 AM
Amazingly enough, people do it all the time. I'd venture to say most of the ammies and kids you see winning at the A shows jump just in lessons. NOT because jumping alone is so terrible, but simply because this is how it works at most of the bigger training barns, and they are the ones with students who win regularly. So yes, people do manage to jump successfully at shows without what you are calling "practice" - they get plenty of practice in lessons with their trainers.

.

Of course the " jumping in lessons only" system works fabulously if you happen to to have the funds to lesson 2 or 3 times a week and keep your horse at a top level training barn. Multiple jumping lessons a week provide sufficient "practice". The vast majority of working adult ammies do not have have the luxury to lesson multiple times a week. Some of us can't even afford to lesson weekly. For those of us who rely on lessons once a month or so we definitely need the ability to school over a few small jumps without a trainer in between our lessons to make any real progress and maintain confidence.

If I was at a barn with a large percentage of children or juniors I think I would want jumping limited to lessons. I really wouldn't want to deal with kids and teens jumping around willy nilly while working on flatwork. .

TheBrownHorse
Jan. 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
The barn I kept my OTTB at allowed me to jump w/o a trainer, as I didn't work with one at all with my girl.

However, I never really jumped her unless the trainer of the barn was there, or someone was on the ground with me. We did trot polls and little cross rails, but I know that I couldn't puts around a 3'6" course on my OTTB with out some kind of instruction. Not that I'm not capable, I am, but I like eyes on the ground.

I ride with my Jumper at a very fancy "A" barn. We're not allowed to jump when not in lessons, and I'm perfectly fine with it. I really don't have any interest in jumping my horse without my trainer present. Plus, the only time I'm out there (3-4 days a week) I'm lessoning, the other days Mr. Trainer rides the brown horse. There's really no reason to jump him when I'm not lessoning. I might add not all our lessons are jump lessons, we do a lot of flatwork and poll work.

rugbygirl
Jan. 13, 2010, 12:23 PM
Equibrit, I don't think anyone ever suggested that it was against the law to allow jumping outside of lessons.

When people refer to their insurance, the rules are much stricter. There is no LAW saying you have to comply with the conditions of your insurance policy, but if they determine that you were not compliant, you'll be held PERSONALLY liable for damages. There is also a likely possibility, IMHO, that if you were found to be non-compliant with your insurance policy, you would be found liable under the limited liability act, because of that clause regarding "willfully negligent of reasonable blah blah"

If you're dealing with minors, I can almost guarantee that you'd be liable for any and all damages, if you were found to be non-compliant with your insurance policy, because limited liability laws are really meant to apply to reasonable adults, and in multiple pieces of case law, it has been proven that a parent can't sign off their child's life with a waiver.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 13, 2010, 12:29 PM
technicality: liability vs. coverage

You may not be found liable. You may just be denied coverage if you don't follow your policy. Just because you don't follow the stipulations of your insurance policy doesn't make you legally liable, it just might give your insurance carrier the right to deny covering you for the claim.

for example, my grandmother's auto policy is cheaper because she chose a stipulation on it that no one under 25 years old would driver her car. Is it legal for a licenced driver under 25 to drive? Sure it is. However, if someone under 25 drove her car and got in an accident that was someone else's fault, her insurance carrier wouldn't pay for it, because she agreed to not let anyone under 25 driver her car in exchange for lower rates. She wouldn't be liablebut would probably be denied coverage.

You will then be left to defend yourself, and pay any awards.

My point was that not all insurance policies exclude jumping outside lessons.

I think it is a personal decision made by the people that run any facility whether or not jumping outside lessons is allowed. For a myriad of probably very valid reasons and circumstances that are unique to each barn. I just hear the "insurance won't allow it" phrase a lot... and I KNOW there is coverage available out there.

RugBug
Jan. 13, 2010, 12:46 PM
My point was that not all insurance policies exclude jumping outside lessons.


Did anyone ever say all insurance policies exclude jumping outside of lessons?

Some policies do. Unless you've read the policy, you will not know.

A BO/trainer may be using the insurance policy as an excuse to limit jumping. They may also have decided to opt for a less expensive policy and make the choice to limit jumping.

What it really comes down to is that it is the BO/Trainer's choice based on whatever criteria they've decided on (insurance policy, not wanting to have to see dangerous jumping, not wanting to have to police people, etc) and if you don't like the policies at a barn...don't board/train there.

EquineRacers
Jan. 13, 2010, 06:02 PM
I'm not, nor are any barns within reasonable drive allow, which sucks!!!! I feel I am a capable enough rider to beable to safetly Jump without a trainer, but it is against policy. I think its more about $$$ then anything!

magnolia73
Jan. 14, 2010, 08:51 AM
Ok...
I think trainers DO have a vested economic interest in keeping people from jumping on their own haphazardly. Any time spent at shows, and most often, the barns where people only jump in their 2 lessons a week have the best results. Therefore, the trainer looks good, gets more clients, builds a business. They are insisting that their clients train correctly over jumps. I'm sure if most trainers felt it was a good idea for a horse to be jumped over a few jumps daily, they'd suggest it.

I think it is a matter of protecting reputation and as you are paying them to help you improve, a way to make sure there are no big unexpected issues in the process. I don't think it is an ugly money grab. Particularly with hunters- there is basically no room for error, so who wants their kids teaching their $40,000 3' horses how to rush jumps? I think eventing and jumpers are different as there is less mmm... finesse to it. It's not necessarily easier, but there is less to screw up.

We help people market projects. It would be cheaper for them to make ads inhouse. But if they send out a junky looking ad- they look bad and are unhappy with the result, and WE look bad. We are being paid to make them look good, so we control what we need to control to get them their desired results. That is also the role of a horse trainer. And yes, the more you control, the more you charge.

sycamoreshowmom
Jan. 14, 2010, 10:13 AM
Agreed. It is a revenue issue and a control issue.

There are a lot of riders out there that need to be told they cannot jump without supervision. No question about that. But that cuts out a great deal of responsible riders from jumping outside a lesson. Having to pay for a lesson when all you want to do is pop over a few crosspoles or do a small gymnastic to keep the horse interested during the long winters of indoor riding is why we would never board at a barn that would not allow it.

I have not noticed that barns that only allow jumping in lessons to win more at shows. If anything, if they win more it is because they are getting people to spend $40 thousand on a made horse.

Janet
Jan. 14, 2010, 10:28 AM
I think there is a big difference between a typical boarding barn, and a "full training" faclity.

In a "full training" scenario, where teh trainer is being paid to micromanage the horse's progress, "no jumping outside lessons" makes some sense.

But in a "boarding barn", where the owner is paying primarily for the facilities and the horse care, AND where the rider is already reasonably competent, I would take strong exception to being told I coulldn't jump except in lessons.

Even in a "full training" scenario, there is am important question. Is the primary focus "training the horse" or "training the rider"?

If the primary focus is "training the horse" then "no jumping outside lessons' may make sense.

But if the focus is "training the rider", there DOES come a point where the rider needs to ride without input from the instructor, and figure out on their own "what i did wrong".

RugBug
Jan. 14, 2010, 12:52 PM
But if the focus is "training the rider", there DOES come a point where the rider needs to ride without input from the instructor, and figure out on their own "what i did wrong".

Good trainers can do just that in lessons. Frank Madden tells trainers to 'practice what you don'tsay as much as what you do say.' At a certain point, a good trainer let's the riders figure it out on their own. They don't talk too much, instructing every single stride.

And let's be realistic, riders become have to think for themselves to show. Some people may not appreciate a that H/J trainers help their riders make plans and evaluate how that plan went after a round...or even that the horse is prepped for the rider, but that doesn't mean that the rider isn't riding that course by themselves.

Mac123
Jan. 14, 2010, 01:00 PM
Good trainers can do just that in lessons.

Not really. Jumping with a trainer in the ring who just is keeping their mouth shut is very different from jumping alone. Because that trainer will eventually open their mouth - that's why they are there.

Maybe it's just me, but as a trainer, I want to produce riders who are competent enough to be independent. Obviously this is accomplished in lessons, but the end goal is NOT to have a rider who must spend 50 years jumping every crossrail with me in the ring.

Thinking, effective horse trainers (since all riders are training or untraining, after all) should be able to jump by themselves once they reach a certain level.

Trainer isn't [shouldn't] always going to be there holding their hand. Being able to say "I want you to school this specific exercise and report to me in the next lesson" goes a long way towards developing riders who can be independent. Every rider has got to know how to solve problems they occur in their jumping work - to know when to hang it up and wait for a trainer, or to try different things and solve the problem on their own.

This sport has been bastardized into developing an industry centered around trainers who have people dependent on them for every little thing instead of developing independent riders who can become their own trainer.

Personally, I think jumping outside of lessons should be strictly regulated but should be a part of developing advanced riders.

hntrjmprpro45
Jan. 14, 2010, 02:26 PM
I make the decision on what my students can do outside of lessons on a per rider basis. Honestly, most of my riders just do flatwork when they are on their own (usually doing "homework" that I have given them), but sometimes they will ask if they can jump and what they should be jumping. Also, I work hard at keeping lesson costs down so that they can lesson more often without breaking the bank.

I agree that the sport has become trainer dependent. I like asking my students questions during the lesson ("why did that happen? what can you do to fix it next time? etc) and usually make it a point to be near by when they are riding on their own so I can answer questions if they come up. I also like to observe them riding on their own and see what they are doing so I can address it during the next lesson. Sometimes I see them doing something I really like and I want to make sure I telll them "hey you did a good job yesterday schooling on your own" or sometimes its not so good "hey it looked like you were struggling with such and such". I think that just because I am not being paid at the time doesn't mean I shouldn't be making observations which can be very useful for lessons.

RugBug
Jan. 14, 2010, 02:26 PM
This sport has been bastardized into developing an industry centered around trainers who have people dependent on them for every little thing instead of developing independent riders who can become their own trainer.


And I think it's done so because A LOT of people want it that way. They are too busy or maybe too lazy to put in the work.

I KNOW I don't have the time/skills/talent to be a very good horse trainer...if I did...I would be one. Instead I focus on being the best rider I can be...which means relying on and accessing the best training available to me. I am at a point where I can do a lot independently but there is still a whole lot that I can't...and I don't think practicing by myself is going to help me improve at that much. The best way to improve is perfect practice...not "sort of okay" practice.

No matter...the point of the thread is that there are legitimate reasons for barns and/or trainers from not allowing jumping outside of lessons (and the reason isn't usually a conspiracy to keep the riders dependent). If someone doesn't like that...they don't have to board at that barn or train with that trainer.

BTW...as I stated, we don't have that rule at my barn. I do jump outside of lessons and do just fine. 'Course, I can also warm up by myself at a show, make a plan for the course, execute the plan, evaluate the trip, etc. NONE of which was developed by jumping outside of lessons. In fact, it was developed IN lessons. Paying attention to what I was being taught, what exercises where being used to fix what issues, discussing/dissecting course elements WITH my trainer and then riding and evaluating them after. Discussing what went wrong with something at what point, etc. THAT'S how I learned enough to be fairly independent.

LookinSouth
Jan. 14, 2010, 05:25 PM
[quote=RugBug;4618506]
No matter...the point of the thread is that there are legitimate reasons for barns and/or trainers from not allowing jumping outside of lessons (and the reason isn't usually a conspiracy to keep the riders dependent). If someone doesn't like that...they don't have to board at that barn or train with that trainer.



Agreed. Just as there are equally legitimate reasons for adults in particular to benefit from jumping outside of lessons.


NONE of which was developed by jumping outside of lessons. In fact, it was developed IN lessons. Paying attention to what I was being taught, what exercises where being used to fix what issues, discussing/dissecting course elements WITH my trainer and then riding and evaluating them after. Discussing what went wrong with something at what point, etc. THAT'S how I learned enough to be fairly independent.

I don't think anyone is advocating practicing on one's own in lieu of lessons. But the fact of the matter is it just isn't realisitic financially for alot of people to do more than 1 lesson a week on their own. If that's the case, many people do benefit from jumping outside of their lessons. I know I do. Unlike you I honestly can't say everything I know I've learned in lessons. I've gathered quite a bit of knowledge in terms of basic jumping from riding and setting courses with other riders more knowledgeable than myself.

I rarely jump when completely on my own, if I do it's nothing more than a couple 2ft. unrelated distances. I do jump when with a group or one of my adult ammie friends and between us we can double check our work with setting lines, gymnastics etc... We can give feedback on equitation, video tape each others rides, comment on striding/pace/distances etc...make suggestions to improve a ride etc...
Our rides really can be quite helpful and we don't have a trainer there yet we still manage to have a fairly productive jump school. Is it the same as taking a lesson? No, absolutely not, but it's definitely helps keep my skills up to par for the lower level jumping I do and it keeps my confidence up. I need to jump regularly to stay confident and I can't afford to take a lesson every single week right now. Believe me, if I could I would! Lucky for me my other working adult ammie friends can't afford to either.
Our system of schooling together works for us. We're safe and benefit from each others' eyes.
We don't jump over 2'6 so it's just small stuff to work on basic skills. None of us are getting ready for the Grand prix ring. We use books for guidelines on gymnastics we're unsure about and if we have doubts on a line we walked out I have a wheel to check for absolute accuracy. We definitely are not flying by the seat of our pants. It also helps that most of us have older, made and very safe horses that can take a joke. I never learned to set a bounce correctly in a lesson. I never learned to actually set a gymnastic line in a lesson. I've only done gymnastics a few times in lessons and it was already set when I arrived. I learned alot from friends that I ride with who have competed well above the level I ride at and some have taught lessons themselves in the past. I am pretty confident they can acurately double check my work and help me along with my jumping. Actually that's really where I learned to set up a course of fences and walk out the lines too. They took the time to make sure I was walking the lines correctly and that could set a line on my own that was set accurately for my horses stride.
I've worked with a number of quality trainers but no one focuses on teaching the setting and walking of courses on a regularly. I've had help at shows but that's about it. If I didn't jump outside of lessons with the help of knowledgeable friends I honestly can say I would know about half of what I know in regards to jumping.

RugBug
Jan. 14, 2010, 05:49 PM
LIS: I haven't learned EVERYTHING in lessons. I've learned a lot from books and a lot from observation. I haven't learned a whole lot from jumping on my own. While I was a jr. I was able to take 3 lessons a week. As an adult, I take one lesson a week and still rarely jump outside of a lesson. I do so occasionally on my new horse b/c he is very different from the old one. I'm still figuring out his jump, so we pop over some crossrails every now and again.

As a junior, I knew there was some magic to setting fences and you walked them off, with four steps equalling a stride, but I didn't learn to walk a until I started setting courses with my current trainer. The first trainer never sat me down and said "this is how you set a line" but I watched her, and knew there was a formula to it and that I didn't understand that formula so I shouldn't try it by myself. There are plenty of people that just throw jumps out with no rhyme or reason (look on the Trak thread...the person who posted the free jumping admits they chutes were set willy-nilly and it shows...thankfully no one was riding those horses, cause lord knows we usually screw the horses up even more). That is scary. They either don't know or don't care (I had someone tell me "horse'll figure it out" :eek:) They are the types that are certainly not going to get better just by jumping on their own...in fact, things usually start falling apart until the finally DO seek help.

But really, I don't care too much what other people do with their horses, as long as they aren't damaging the jumps I manage, 'cause that really does bother me. :winkgrin:

LookinSouth
Jan. 14, 2010, 06:56 PM
There are plenty of people that just throw jumps out with no rhyme or reason


This is certainly true. I'm not at all saying a "no jumping outside of lessons policy" doesn't make sense in all scenarios. But it can really put a damper on learning for those that are responsible.
Luckily my barn is mostly adult dressage riders with the exception of about seven of us that are mixed eventers and h/j's all of whom are competent and safe on their own. Everyone but me and one other person has competed successfully at 3ft or above, some over 3'6. Also, no one at my barn is under 16 which can be helpful. The 3 older teenagers we do have are VERY mature and meld right in with the adults.
We're lucky in that there is really only one person that uses the jumps that is actually scary and has no clue in how to set a line or gymnastic (let along ride one). That person I wouldn't even catergorize in the group of 7 that jump but simply someone that thinks it's okay to occasionally run her barely broke on the flat 3 year old at jumps :eek:. We're all hoping and praying this dimwit doesn't ruin the privledge for the rest of us, luckily she'll be moving in a few months and the BO/BM are both aware of her craziness as theres been multiple complaints. BTW, she's the only one that has ever broken a jump since I've been there too! :lol:

All of the safe and knowledgeable people take lessons and clinics, enjoy riding together and are not afraid to ask for help or take constructive criticism.

IME the scary people are the ones that think they know everything, are not interested in learning from others and don't take regular lessons.
Yep, I've dealt with plenty of them too, just not at this barn, thankfully!

IrishWillow
Jan. 14, 2010, 07:01 PM
No one under 18 is allowed to jump outside of a lesson. Its not an issue really, bc none of our boarders are under 18. It does apply to the lesson kids and leasors, though. Theyre also required to ride with helmets.

We are about half and half.. half pleasure, half showing. Most of them are hunter/jumper or eventer types.

superpony123
Jan. 14, 2010, 07:02 PM
I think it's unsafe to let just anyone jump outside of lessons. My trainer lives on-site, but she does have days where she does not teach, and might not be in the barn. No one is allowed to jump totally alone. A couple of adult riders have permission to jump on their own, but it's discouraged if there is literally no one there. I am allowed to jump when I hack around, but only if someone is in the ring and if I won't be in their way (so if theres a lesson going on and they are continuously jumping this one jump, unless trainer says i can follow after each time, i cant jump it) plus, i would not want to jump without trainer around, and definitely not if no one was around. I don't even like riding certain horses when no one is around, but that's me and it's perfectly reasonable. If i decide that its feasible that I may fall off this horse, why on earth would I ride with no one in the ring or at least in the viewing room the whole time? I am 17, almost 18.

anywho, when i jump outside of a lesson, i usually just pick one or two jumps and work on various things---like trotting jumps or halting right after, going on a circle, doing a figure 8 over one jump, things like that.

Not So Practical Horse(WO)man
Jan. 14, 2010, 07:42 PM
I don't take lessons because I cant afford them. Me and a friend rent dry stalls at a big show barn with a big lesson program. We never jump when there is a lesson going on and we don't flaunt the fact that we're allowed to jump because the rest of the regular boarders are not allowed to jump outside of lessons. Me and my friend regularly compete the 3' jumpers and I am looking to move up to 3'6" this year so we school that height. But again, we only jump that big in each others company and only if there is one(or more!) grounds person. We're both 18 and dont do anything stupid.

I guess the reason we're allowed to jump is because we're technically a separate business from her. Though we have access to everything else the boarders do, we mainly gained access based on the fact that we help out alot and are always there even when noone else can be.

Gray Horse H/J
Jan. 14, 2010, 07:48 PM
FWIW--I have boarded in the free for all jumping barns with no rules. It was scary to be honest. People had no clue how to set lines or set jumps. Just throw down 2 jumps in a row & who cares if you are jumping an oxer backwards? Run at it faster. And jump as high as you want too! :eek: Talk about broken jumps. The BO would then yell at boarders, but the people who should have been listening never did. It also made riding in general a headache cause you never knew if people were just running around or running around at jumps (lots of drive-bys). So much for "sharing" the ring...which was 200x80 so not impossible. I don't miss that crap. :rolleyes:


And THIS is why I am glad for the "no jumping outside of a lesson" rule. I board at a huge barn. It's very diverse. We have primarily H/J riders, but we also have dressage riders, Western riders, beginner riders and advanced riders. We have a LOT of kids. If everyone was allowed to jump around whenever they pleased, we'd probably have a lot of crashing, bolting, refusing, and falling. Certainly a lot of riders there are capable, and not scary to watch. But some are scary.

The rule really isn't "no jumping unless you PAY for a lesson". It's "no jumping without a trainer present". When I was still jumping my horse, I would ask the trainers sometimes if I could jump. They always said yes. And I didn't have to PAY, just needed them present (per barn rules, not that I needed them to baby-sit me).

I did board at a private farm for a couple months last year, and that BO didn't care if I jumped alone. She always had jumps set up in the little field next to the barn, and a few times I set some smaller jumps, but overall I didn't do a lot of jumping there.

The rule depends on the barn. For a big barn with lots of different skill levels and age groups, this rule is probably a good thing. For a small farm with a handful of competent riders, it's probably not necessary.

Ray
Jan. 14, 2010, 08:26 PM
We can jump on our own and are encouraged to do so. there is a resident BO/trainer, and while not a "show barn", there are several of us that go to bigger New England shows and to FL. All adults, all been jumping for many years (Hunters, Eq and Jumpers). We make it a point to have someone around, just in case. The only rule is not to change the lines, our trainer hates that ;)

I like to practice on my own, I thinks its helped me to develop my eye for distances, and to help keep my one lesson a week from being too big a deal.

findeight
Jan. 15, 2010, 12:25 PM
Agreed. It is a revenue issue and a control issue.


Very late on this one, I lurked a little the other day and could not post but something that strikes me is...

What is wrong with protecting your income/revenue and keeping control of YOUR business (that feeds you and keeps a roof over your head) on YOUR property? Somebody mentioned back several pages it was also "just" a way to keep insurance primiums down? That is a bad thing because???

Think the OP specifically mentioned boarding barns ? That is a case by case situation depending on the barn.

But a trainer owned and operated facility most certainly has the right to try to keep insurance costs down and/or their own income stream intact. Most don't even offer straight board with no training or lessons.

One other thing...don't y'all think it is easier to just say nobody jumps outside of lessons and then make exceptions on a case by case basis instead of try to forbid some while allowing others? Because that is what most of them do. The official answer is no, but there are exceptions.

Practice does NOT make perfect. PERFECT practice make perfect-maybe you are perfect and don't need the eyes on the ground. Because unless you are, repeating bad habits will not make them go away no matter how much you practice.