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View Full Version : Causes of the "tucked up" appearence? UPDATE! Positive PSSM



manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:08 AM
My gelding has a once a month habit of pacing. It usually starts because he saw something scary.... then the pacing begins. He is on 24/7 turnout, but even locking him in doesn't stop it. We are doing some behavior modification with herbs and now Quiessence. He also does better when we seperate him from his submissive buddy.

But, when these "episodes" happen, he gets all tucked up. Regardless of water intake, food, etc. he gets tucked up and has some mild diarrhea. After several days of being quiet he looks normal again. Any ideas? What generally causes a tucked up appearence.

For the record, eyes are fine, two vets ruled out ulcers, no grain (beet, hay) and 24/7 turnout. Diet changes never cause these episodes. I have been journaling about this gelding for a year and have yet to find a common thread.

JB
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:18 AM
Tight muscles comes to mind.

manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:23 AM
Interesting point JB. His hind end muscles are rock solid following these episodes. He is not a runner, he justs walks and paces.

He used to not drink, and I had to give him extra beet and water in a sloppy mix to get some in him. BUT, he has been drinking these past few times, no less than usual, and has that same appearance.

Stretching... or just let it pass?

kasjordan
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:27 AM
How did the vets rule out ulcers? Scoping? My daughter's gelding had a bad reaction to bute and got ulcers. One of the very first signs was that tucked up appearance...REALLY tucked up!!! And the situation you're describing is stressful, he may be getting ulcers...and they're not fun.

pines4equines
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:32 AM
Ditto the ulcers. My guy would tuck up like he was holding his stomach in or something. It's kind of a weird look. He's on Ranitadine now. And the runny poop too is a sign of ulcers.

Do you do free choice hay? Is his pacing at all related to hay being finished or he being a wee bit hungry?

manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:43 AM
Both vets... the traditional and alternative medicine, said no way to ulcers. No scoping. Trad vet told me he is not a candidate. 24/7 turnout, free choice hay, no grain, not in training, etc. Alt vet checked acupuncture points and also did history. Both told me no need to treat, or scope.

It always nags me though. :yes:

The pacing occurs despite there being ample hay. He has a wonderfuk appetite and always has. He gets wild eyed and moves his buddy around as if he is trying to get away from what ever has upset him. These guys are in my backyard and I am the caretaker, so I watch their environment as well as what they are being fed closely.

pines4equines
Jan. 11, 2010, 12:02 PM
If you don't mind spending the dough, you could purchase 2 weeks supply of Ulcergard (there are lots of threads on it and you don't need a prescription). I gave my guy a half a tube a day for one month. Treat him yourself for two weeks and see if there is a difference.

I too had asked my vet about ulcers and she pooh-poohed me. So I did nothing for a year! Then after reading all the threads on this site, I tried the Ulcergard for one month and saw a difference. I took the horse off of Ulcergard thinking the ulcers were healed and then he seemed to get them again about 5 months later. This time, I did not trust myself and called the vet. She came in and I told her all my testing and what happened, including all the symptoms. And, she agreed. She put the horse on one year of Ranitadine.

Also, read many of the ulcer threads. There is one thread written by Auventura 2 or Auventura Two called We have ulcers. Now she gets blasted in there but some of the symptoms she gives, my horse had. So if you can get around the blasting and read for info...Try to find some of the older threads with symptoms. Some of the newer threads are not as informative. (There seems to be a different crowd on COTH.)
Some symptoms: On and off feed, tucked up, general spookiness (?), preoccupied, poop that has a runniness to it (I was constantly wiping his as?!?!), colicky symptoms, on and off sickish, etc. Anyway, try to find some of the older threads.

And my horse has the easiest life in the world. I was confounded that he would have these but he has them...(He did have colic surgery in 2007 due to his cribbing and we think it started then along with a treatment with DOXY for Lyme...)

Good luck with your horse.

oppsie2
Jan. 11, 2010, 12:14 PM
Your vet can't rule out ulcers by saying that due to his feed/turn out he can't have them. ANY horse can have them, it is a proven fact and any good vet would have offered to try simple & inexpensive remedies... papaya juice, ranitadine (I get mine at Walmart 238 of them for a week is $17 - he gets 17 bid).

There is stuff that I hear is GREAT called Stomach Soother. Personally I find the papaya juice is great to PREVENT tummy upsets - it will not heal them, just helps to prevent. We do 1 cup over each feeding (including when we do bran mashes, soaked alfalfa cubes and beet pulp).

Is your beep pulp free of all molasses??? That can easily cause ulcers in a sensitive horse.

I did not find that Quiessence did anythiing for my guy. I used it for 6 month and there was no change. But, I have a friend who swears by it. Each animal is different.

I am still shaking my head at your vet saying that he couldn't have ulcers. Even little peptic ulcers can cause this type of reaction. If you can't put the money into scoping (I can understand $$ issues, believe me), try the Stomach Soother, Paypaya Juice, Ranitidine, something like that. I bet you will see some improvement, again, not a cure, but improvement!

Papaya juice - get it at your local health food store or in your regular grocery store's natural food section. I pay about $3.29 for a half gallon

Do a search for Stomach Soother. Several on line places carry it now. Not sure of the cost, sorry.

Finish Line carrys U7. I got a case of that (and it ain't cheap). Used that plus another 3/4 of a case and don't see anything more than what I saw from the Papaya. That is $64/gallon. My vet said none of igredients she read lead to anything that was supposed to treat ulcers. It had honey and a bunch of yummy smelling sweet stuff, but not worth the money IMHO. Thakn goodness I WON the 2 cases ;-) or I would be seriously PO'd!

Best of luck, but please don't rule out ulcers!

manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 12:21 PM
OK-to address some things mentioned:

* Only ever feed molasses free beet pulp. He is highly sensitive to food. In his nine years on this planet, I have realized I cannot feed him sweet feed, high NSC complete pellet, and TC Low Starch. Does OK on TC Senior, but holding his own on beet and Cool Calories right now. Actually, weight wise he looks the best he has in a long time.

* I have also done nothing for a year after talking with two vets. Is it OK to just treat him with Ranitidine? I honestly cannot shell out the money for ulcergard right now. I know I should... but if Ranitidine is a cheaper alt, then I am for it!

* He has been on U-gard powder, and then U-7 Gastric Acid since April. Doesn't seem to do much, I fed the U-gard as a test. The U-7 I got free at Equine Affaire (three months worth.) Never saw any changes for the worse or better while he was on it.

* I have read Auventura's threads on ulcers. I agree, any horse can have ulcers. It's just so frustrating being told no, no no... and not knowing anyone who has actually treated (around here).

I am throwing my hands up and ready to try at this point!

He is 1050 lbs. How many pills/mg would that be per day? And how many times? I can pull the threads to.... I am a COTH addict :)

LarissaL
Jan. 11, 2010, 12:40 PM
Both vets... the traditional and alternative medicine, said no way to ulcers. No scoping. Trad vet told me he is not a candidate.

Mine shouldn't be a candidate either, but he is DEFINITELY ulcery. 24/7 turnout, quiet herd, stressfree life (worked lightly, long periods of no work), free choice hay, low carb grain, alfalfa, etc. Had a vet check that acupressure site, she said "eh, nothing special."

His mentality seems like it might cause internal stress, so even if they rule him out based on external stresses, didn't that make him a candidate? I think it's a contributing factor in mine. He will often become a little OCD/neurotic - has spent hours walking circles around the round bale for reasons only he knows, for example.

My other horse will get that tucked up look when he's hurting. He is sensitive to changes in his feet and it's obvious when something is up. Still eats and drinks well, just has that appearance. Alievate the pain and he is back to looking normal (for him) again in 24 hours.

manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 01:05 PM
LarissaL-that is exactly the behavior I am talking about... walking around the roundbale is the equivalant of what my guy does! It is baffling too... you split he and his buddy up and pacing stops. I still haven't figured out that behavior yet.

If I start Ranitidine tonight (looks like 10-12 150 mg pills 2x a day?) should I quit his other supps?

He is on:
multivitamin
Source
Quiessence - for pacing/anxiety
TCM herbs (1/2 dose) - for pacing
Cool Calories

suzyq
Jan. 11, 2010, 02:24 PM
It can also be other things that are bothering him besides ulcers (although I would certainly try the ranitidine for a couple of weeks). My guy was nqr while working, crabby, didn't like being brushed, had that tucked up trot. I figured it was probably ulcers because I've treated for that before, but he was diagnosed with equine herpes. It's the equine equivalent of shingles. He's on supplemental lysine now and it seems to be doing the trick.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 11, 2010, 03:42 PM
When you say his hind end muscles are "rock solid" do you mean "good as gold" or "hard as a rock"?

FWIW, some horses don't like 24/7 turnout. Lots from the track really learn to love their stall. I have had a few OTTB's and a few WB's. Right now I have one of each and both like to be out for about 2 hours then would rather come in and eat hay in the cool, fly free barn. The OTTB paces and loses lots of weight if he is turned out for too long. Could be giving your horse ulcers.

Agree with all PP's. Any horse can have them. Just because they are supposed to be happy out roaming and grazing doesn't mean they are.

pines4equines
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:17 PM
I agree about U-7, it did nothing for my guy. Not sure of the dose for the Ranitadine. I have a prescription with SmartPak and he gets 10 tablets a day. I do not have the bottle handy but there are threads all over in regards to this that might have the numbers for you.

Interestingly, my vet put my horse on a prescription for an entire year?!?! But since he has been on it, he has been more my old guy than ever.

Thanks whoever mentioned Stomach Soother. I might give his body a break from the Ranitadine since there is no riding and try that for a month since I know the symptoms he gets. I was also curious about Succeed but I understand it is incredibly expensive.

I too agree with the one poster about 24/7 T/O. Some horses like being in the barn, it's their down/private time.

Good luck.

pines4equines
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:19 PM
PS: I would take him off all the other supplements personally. You never know, they might cause an acidity in his stomach. I have stomach problems and taking my vitamins is an ordeal. I can't take them all in one fell swoop. I have to take one pill every hour or boy, does my stomach hurt.

twofatponies
Jan. 11, 2010, 06:34 PM
In my experience the "tucked up" appearance is clenched abdominal muscles, usually because there is some pain (mild colic, for example, or even just the "nervous stomach" like you might get before speaking in public or going for a medical exam of some kind. You can see the tension in the muscles.

Of course, the solution is to find out what's bothering him or figure a way to break the response with drugs, medication, a different kind of management, etc. And for that part I have no advice!

manyspots
Jan. 11, 2010, 10:55 PM
Interesting point about stomach issues and the supplements interacting... I had been considering pulling him off everything. I am afraid he is going to be climbing trees... but that is the chance I take :).

On a side note, he is actually happier outside than locked in. He was a non-socialized show horse for the first four years of his life, and on limited TO until he was 7. We switched barns then he came home, both 24/7 situations he has actually gotten much better!

He is a little more relaxed tonight... but still baffles me. Eating with gusto, drinking, but tucked. Off to Walmart I go tomorrow!

elequine
Jan. 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
I'd have to agree with so many here and say ulcers and it sounds like he is suffering mild episodes of tying up.

I would run blood to see if he's lacking anything by way of electrolytes
Check his ck levels
Ensure that his hay is not alfalfa
Treat for ulcers immediately

Tucking up is pain related and causes a great amount of stress

Do you ever notice him urinating during those pacing times?

manyspots
Jan. 12, 2010, 08:04 AM
Ulcers even though this only happens once every 4-6 weeks and lasts for exactly 3 days?

This morning, which is day 4, he is quiet, personable and is usual self. Pacing has been over since yesterday afternoon and spookiness disappeared overnight. This his exact pattern each and every time.

I had considered tying up, but he didn't seem to fit that profile. No urination during pacing (other than stopping and urinating in their usual "spot"). He has been on some alfalfa cubes with his beet since the weather got cold and he showed no adverse reaction. No change in behavior... same pattern stuck despite the few cubes twice a day. My hay is timothy/orchard blend from one supplier and I have an entire year's worth. So no change there. His gelding stablemate is on a near identical diet with no issues.

Do you think next time he has an "episode" is a good time to draw blood and see if there is an underlying cause?

JB
Jan. 12, 2010, 08:32 AM
Yes, next time there's an episode, talk to your vet about the optimal time to take blood, as I think it takes several hours (36???) for muscle damage to show up (well enough) in the bloodstream. I can't recall if there is benefit to taking blood asap, or if that's going to be misleading.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 12, 2010, 11:02 AM
That's why I asked the question above about "rock solid" muscles. Wasn't sure what you meant, but rock hard buttocks is a symptom of tying up.

manyspots
Jan. 12, 2010, 12:00 PM
Gry2Yng-His hind end does get hard, almost like they are constantly clenched. When I first searched typing-up (admittedly don't know much about it, just remember an Arab from when I was young that would sweat and not be able to move) it didn't sound like him. BUT I then looked at PSSM and EPSM and it got me thinking.

I have owned him since he was 3. He is almost 9. He has always had the following issues/symptoms of something:

1) Tight in the hind end. When he starts to work, he cow hops until he loosens up. But, he does loosen. This has been made a little better with chiro care and 24/7 turnout but still exists.

2) Tight in the back, same as above.

3) Grumpy ears for no reason. He is actually quite affectionate, but makes nasty faces often.

4) HOT HOT HOT on high NSC grain (hence the beet pulp/alf cube/hay diet).

5) Spooky!!!!! Unpredictable. Goes great under saddle, then all of a sudden a tree is going to eat him.

He is a papered appy, mostly QH lines. No Impressive, so no known risk of HYPP.

katarine
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:06 PM
He may have many things going on. Any chance you might post a profile conformation shot of him? He might show the world something with his posture.

Ever buted him in the AM and ridden him that afternoon? Just to see if he was eased up some? (thinking sore back/sore hocks).

I see now it comes in three day waves.

I'd strip his diet to bare bones- plain grass hay and nothing else for 2 weeks.

See what happens.

baylady7
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:16 PM
Two things to look at- if he is out 24x7 he may be just cold, which will cause him to tuck up. Also, is he out with a buddy? A buddy may help him settle down- he may be just worried (esp if something scared him)

Druid Acres
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:18 PM
This sounds a lot like EPSM/PSSM to me. One of the symptoms can be the "tucked up" look, and also the hard muscles in the hindquarters. Quarter horses and appies are both susceptible breeds.

You can read about EPSM at Rural Heritage (http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm_summary.htm). Or google PSSM for more QH-specific info.

manyspots
Jan. 12, 2010, 01:27 PM
Thank you for the Rural Heritage link! I will be sure to check that out tonight.

As for cold, he has been blanketed this year due to trouble getting wieght on him. We played the food game much of the spring and summer and he went into fall/early winter thinner than I wanted. A low 4 on the scale. He had gained since being blanketed and on Cool Calories. His wieght has been a yo-yo for the past two years. I did check for cold and he was fine there. He is a wimp so I know it before he does that it is getting too chilly for him!

He has a 24/7 turnout buddy. Older TWH gelding who is the submissive and kind member of the herd. They get along very well.

I fear pulling him off his beet/alf due to quick wieght loss in the middle of winter. I will do it if you guys think it will show something, but isn't beet/alf the base of a EPSM/PSSM diet? He gets no grain.

Most recent profile shot (2 weeks ago or so):
http://s900.photobucket.com/albums/ac202/manyspots/?action=view&current=DSCF4594.jpg
(the one of his right side is one year ago)

Also, bute does work on him. He has been buted before due to mild injury or stocking up behind that persists. Is that a symptom too?

Foxtrot's
Jan. 12, 2010, 05:42 PM
Sounds like a) maybe tying up, or b) pain.

We bought an auction pony once, simply because she was so adorable lookng and perfect - but she was very lame (as well as lousy). She had that tucked up appearance and that line along the bottom third of her abdomen was very pronounced. Our chiropractor came to see her and after one adjustment, the line was reduced and after the second adjustment she reverted to looking normal. She went on to a wonderful career as a PPG games pony.

murphyluv
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:19 PM
the very first thing that popped into my mind was stress-induced colitis. I have seen a few horses get this that have that kind of sensitive personality. The diarrea being a big indicator. Also had one horse with REALLY bad chronic colitis, that got better with a change in diet, but caused her to have a major colic at a horse show- that went along with reaally bad diarrea.

The more I read though-- it is absolutely odd that there is a "pattern" to his episodes. I would definitely look into EPSM, but I would also talk to another vet about the pattern... and see if that symptom itself can be linked to anything.

ETA- perhaps the tying up causes the stress causes colitis/diarrea??

Also, there is not much that will really treat colonic ulcers or colitis (which I'm pretty sure is the same thing?) or leaky gut. Gastroguard most certainly does not treat anything but the stomach. Papaya puree will.

You also have a PM.

Calamber
Jan. 12, 2010, 10:28 PM
The horse is tucked up because of pain, and the hardened muscles with the tucked up appearance is fairly indicative of a horse tying up. Perhaps two unrelated factors which cause this situation but they become related once the horse is agitated. I do not know why any vet would say a profile of being turned out, no stress etc, means the horse would not have ulcers. He is pacing, thus he is stressed.

I did not look more closely at the feeding regimen or his breeding, is he a Quarter horse? Is is possible he is HYPP+?

For ulcers I second or third the use of Papaya juice. There is a fecal test for ulcers done now, I think you have to buy the kit through your vet. That can help diagnose that part of the problem without a scope. Otherwise you can take a blood test after one of these episodes and rule out tying up. It has nothing to do with increased urination btw, just the urine is more darkened when the horse does urinate from dead muscle tissue.

I just looked at his pictures and while he is a lovely leopard spot (thus manyspots), he looks like he could be part Quarter horse.

Gry2Yng
Jan. 12, 2010, 11:53 PM
The horse is tucked up because of pain, and the hardened muscles with the tucked up appearance is fairly indicative of a horse tying up.

I just don't think anyone can make a statement that definitive from a BB post. Horses "looked" tucked up for lots of reasons. Fitness, dehydration, pain. We can all provide our experiences but no one can diagnose over the internet.
;)

M. O'Connor
Jan. 13, 2010, 01:02 PM
The symptoms you describe are consistent with some version of tying up. I am somewhat intrigued by:


"It usually starts because he saw something scary.... then the pacing begins. He is on 24/7 turnout, but even locking him in doesn't stop it. We are doing some behavior modification with herbs and now Quiessence. He also does better when we seperate him from his submissive buddy.

Is he aggressive to the point of exhausting himself in his efforts to continue his domination of his pasture mate? This could easily lead to tying up episodes if he is prone to them.

There is a lot of this happening recently, due to all the bad weather and the resulting sporadic turnout/exercise schedules of many horses.

If you do a search on tying up, you'll learn about the symptoms, causes, and what can be done to manage it. There are quite a few recent COTH threads on the topic as well.

katarine
Jan. 13, 2010, 01:46 PM
I just don't think anyone can make a statement that definitive from a BB post. Horses "looked" tucked up for lots of reasons. Fitness, dehydration, pain. We can all provide our experiences but no one can diagnose over the internet.
;)

Amen.

Be careful taking an internet diagnosis too seriously. And a leopard appy might be part QH. Well, sorry but...duh. He could also be part pony, he is kinda short.

Want a scary internet dx? He's pregnant :)

I would sit down with a pen and pad and make a bullet list of his symptoms and their schedule. Watch him like a hawk. learn his normal vitals, and his vitals when he's bunched up. Document it. Find the pattern and talk to your VET.

manyspots
Jan. 13, 2010, 03:00 PM
:lol::lol::lol:
He is actually mostly QH... some TB that goes back second generation. And the picture is decieving... 15.3 and 1050 lbs :D.

I agree on taking an internet diagnosis lightly, but I appreciate the insight. It also does seem he shows some signs of tying up based on what I have read.

Sort of like the old saying... what came first, the chicken or egg? What came first, the pacing, the tying up.... who knows. But it definitely got me thinking. We are due for spring shots next month and I will be sure to revisit this issue with my vet. Previously he would not show physical signs, he would just be spooky. Hence, why I was told not a candidate for ulcers... blah blah blah. But now, after keeping track in a journal for a year I have some proof it may be physical and not mental. I have always believed it was physical.....

Thank you for all the insight! Keep it coming!

wateryglen
Jan. 17, 2010, 06:32 PM
AAaaahhh....all this other stuff is ridiculous conjecture...:rolleyes: .. .he looks fine to me. He IS a long backed horse and maybe a little lady waisted. Common for his breed btw. The long back alone makes them look tucked up. THE cause for a tucked up appearance is simply a lack of "gut fill" ie: a lack of fiber dilating his intestines and making his belly & flank bulge out some or look filled in. Fit horses are usually tucked up from being thin and in good shape. Their abdominals are carrying their bellys well. Ever notice how racehorses look when they are in racing shape? Is your guy fit? If he's a pacer; I'm guessing he is so stop worrying. Just make sure he gets all the hay he can eat. If he's off feed on his "worrying days" then try some beet pulp with his grain. I'm betting he looks more filled out on days he's been pigging out on a hay bale. I feel it's his confirmation....which looks good to me. All he is - is empty!! :yes:

manyspots
Jan. 17, 2010, 06:40 PM
Thanks for the response Wateryglen. He looks good in that photo (if I do say so myself :)) but that is when he is quiet. As soon as the pacing episodes begin, he gets real tucked as you were describing. Likening him to a racehorse is very accurate. He continues to eat his beet/alf and does drink most of the time. Only change is frantic, pacing (at a walk) behavior which is non-stop and the sucked up appearance.

As an update, I did a lot of reading on PSSM/EPSM. His diet is close to that now with the beet and alf. In addition, he is on Quiessence and just passed the 2 week mark. Have seen a big difference with that! I also added Vita Flex E & Selenium for good measure. He's been real quiet. Fingers crossed he feels better.

manyspots
Feb. 7, 2010, 08:14 AM
Well, we had some excitement around here yesterday! :no:

At the end of my shift, fiancee calls in a panic saying he could not get my gelding up. He looked outside, saw him down (highly unusual) and saw his legs moving. When he got outside, he said he looked just like he was having a seizure. After trying for a minute to get him up, he said he just "came out of it" and got up. Then the pacing began.

Gelding was quiet all morning and this happened at 2:00 PM. I got home at 2:30 to a sweating, heart racing, tucked up maniac. Began slowly walking him and called the vet.

At 5:30, vet arrives. Gelding is still out of his mind, tucked up, and trembling under his blanket. When she palpated his muscles, he was quivering. He was great for the exam and she pulled two blood draws and gave him banamine. He was relatively quiet within an hour. And he's OK this morning. Scary stuff.....

I have a hair sample on its way to U of Minnesota for PSSM testing and vet is going to run a CBC and check muscle enzymes. Awaiting the results...
Since starting this thread:
PSSM diet (alfalfa cubes/beet with Vit E/Selenium and 1 lb. oil) and he has always been on 24/7 turnout since coming home. He is also on Quiessence.

katarine
Feb. 7, 2010, 08:31 AM
Have you checked him for HYPP?

manyspots
Feb. 7, 2010, 08:31 AM
No, because there is no Impressive anywhere in his lines.

Good thought though.....

gloriginger
Feb. 7, 2010, 09:19 AM
I was just about to post that you should check his Vitamin E and selenium levels- as they are deficient in our soil here in NE - and can be the cause of sore muscles- but it souds like you will now be supplementing his diet with E/Selenium :). Hope everything wroks out well- he's cute.

Auburn
Feb. 7, 2010, 09:36 AM
If he did have a seizure, then it would explain his pacing.

We had a dog who started to have seizures, as she got older. After they were over, she would pace all over the room and run into furniture, as if she couldn't see it. The stronger the seizure, the longer and more frantic the pacing episodes would last. We would try to calm her, but she could not help herself.

I think that your husband may be on to something. :(

Dalemma
Feb. 7, 2010, 10:28 AM
My guy had hard muscles over his rump and his back muscles started twitching.........we discovered he had a low selenium and he has moderate PSSM.

If the muscles are hard due to PSSM adding oil should make a difference........I noticed a softening in less than a week.

I would also get rid of any grain just in case this has something to do with tying up.

Dalemma

manyspots
Feb. 7, 2010, 10:37 AM
Dalemma-yeah, did away with the grain (TC Senior) about three weeks ago and he's been on the full 1 lb. of oil for just over a week now.

I did notice he was tracking better and softer between episodes. I have that hair sample into U of Minnesota, too.

How is your guy now? How long did it take to get under control?

Dalemma
Feb. 7, 2010, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately my guy is not rideable due to the amount involvement of the muscle 15 to 20% ...........but he is comfortable enough that he can be a babysitter for the time being.......if things change we will have to put him down.

Just remember hair samples are only conclusive 80% of the time. The other 20% have to be done via a muscle biopsy which was the case for my guy.

Dalemma

manyspots
Feb. 16, 2010, 05:07 PM
Well, the vet called me this afternoon with the official results from the University of Minnesota... my gelding is PSSM Type 1 positive. In a way I am relieved to know this is contributing to his many subtle issues.

I have to sincerely thank those of you on COTH who suggested I look at tying up, and further more EPSM/PSSM. If not for you... I may have still be racking my brain and trying to explain to vets that he paces and it's not all in his/my head! :) So, THANK YOU!!!!

We are going to do the HYPP test for good measure as well, just to be sure. For now, it's diet maintenance, more blood next week, and time. He is looking better by the day after being on the "diet" for a month and he is moving better than he has in years.

I anticipate there will be other episodes, much as Dr. Valentine suggests, I just just hope they get better over time.

MunchkinsMom
Feb. 16, 2010, 06:02 PM
Wow, while that is not great news, I'm sure you are releived to have an answer to it at least. Jingles for more improvement every day.

manyspots
Feb. 16, 2010, 06:12 PM
Thanks MM! I am relieved to know there is an answer. This poor guy hasn't been quite right for a few months now... but in retrospect has been showing hints for years.

Hoping we can improve from here!

Dalemma
Feb. 16, 2010, 06:12 PM
Well, the vet called me this afternoon with the official results from the University of Minnesota... my gelding is PSSM Type 1 positive. In a way I am relieved to know this is contributing to his many subtle issues.

I have to sincerely thank those of you on COTH who suggested I look at tying up, and further more EPSM/PSSM. If not for you... I may have still be racking my brain and trying to explain to vets that he paces and it's not all in his/my head! :) So, THANK YOU!!!!

We are going to do the HYPP test for good measure as well, just to be sure. For now, it's diet maintenance, more blood next week, and time. He is looking better by the day after being on the "diet" for a month and he is moving better than he has in years.

I anticipate there will be other episodes, much as Dr. Valentine suggests, I just just hope they get better over time.

While it is not good news that he has PSSM.....it is good news that you now know what is wrong........did they tell you if he was mild, moderate or severe.........I am guessing from your description he is mild or moderate.

Dalemma

manyspots
Feb. 16, 2010, 06:21 PM
According to the paperwork it says he is P/N, which they classify as less severly affected and easier to manage.

I would imagine if he is already showing response to diet after one month he is mild?

I still can't believe he fell into the 80% category for the testing! I was anticipating having to go muscle biopsy route like you did....

twofatponies
Feb. 16, 2010, 06:38 PM
OP - thanks for the update, because it hit me over the head like a hammer. The articles on Rural Heritage were excellent. I had been dismissing my older mare's wonkiness to her age (19), the terribly cold winter, her known problems with her stifles and arthritis and myriad other small things.

But it dawned on me as I read your update and the articles - this is the first winter since I've had her that we switched her to a senior feed - with grain and molasses. It's also the first winter that light work hasn't made her MORE comfortable - in fact she's been so stiff I'd decided a few weeks ago to just let her have the winter off, since her rider (dear husband) is laid up from his accident anyway.

Suddenly I see her myriad minor wonkinesses in a new light. And I am calling the vet in the morning to discuss testing.

Dalemma
Feb. 16, 2010, 07:13 PM
According to the paperwork it says he is P/N, which they classify as less severly affected and easier to manage.

I would imagine if he is already showing response to diet after one month he is mild?

I still can't believe he fell into the 80% category for the testing! I was anticipating having to go muscle biopsy route like you did....

I wouldn't assume he is mild........I would ask I am surprised the test did not say.

My vet gave me a copy of the results and my horse had one copy of the gene and was moderate.........I ended up insisting on knowing the number of percent of muscle involved as my guy was not responding to undersaddle work.

P/N simply means he has only one copy of the gene.....but is still can be mild, moderate or severe.

Plus Type 2 is supposed to have a better prognosis........but not in my case.

My guy responded really well to the diet......changes were noted in less than a week.....but still has too much muscle involvement to be ridden.


If they have two copies they usually end up having to be euthanized......this is what we thought my guy had as he also has some heart issues when out on grass.

Dalemma