AWS vs AWR?

[DharmaO]

I am planning on registering my 3/4 bred TB sport horse performance mare this year, with either the American Warmblood Registry or the American Warmblood Society. I would like to breed her in a few year's time, and it seems that these organizations are the most appropriate for a horse with her breeding.

However, after reading through all the literature on both websites I am not sure which association is the one to go with---I am interested in hearing people's experiences with these two organizations, and what, if anything, the main differences are between them.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[JWB]

Making popcorn....

[JB]

No need for popcorn.

What is the other 1/4 of her breeding?

The PHR is an option for registration for you.

Who do you want to breed her to, do you know yet? There are some really nice "purebred" WB stallions, for example, approved with the AWR, which then gives you the ability to register the foal there.

[irkenequine]

VERY excited to hear the answer to this question... have a well bred filly on sire's side out of unregistered dam (didn't breed her!) and am curious as to where to start myself, since other registries are out of reach.

[FMulder]

We see this old chestnut come up every year, and it's always a scream to watch. Perhaps after four consecutive years it might NOT turn in to the annual cat fight, we'll see............................................... .

[irkenequine]

As obviously a new member (but not a new horseman) that's precisely why I didn't post the board myself--I've had many awkward conversations about the American Warmblood and their subsequent registries. Maaaany many many.

But maybe from (because we have many here) intelligent, and well informed breeder's perspectives, we can take it with the grain of salt that some registry may be inherently better than no registry at all?

[pintopiaffe]

There is absolutely no reason for it to turn into ANYTHING, and generally the folks who DO talk trash are not actually involved or have horses registered with either!

Part of it is going to be geographic. One or the other is going to be more known in some areas, one or the other might have more 'credibility' in some areas.

AWS, and RPSI (which might be worth looking into!) are very, very close in their books and how horses are registered, recorded, accepted, approved etc.

AWS (and RPSI) will RECORD just about any horse presented to them. Shetland pony to Out of the West by Truck. They will RECORD them for tracking purposes. They may not actually 'approve' them. There are several books, and horses go into them appropriately based on several factors, including bloodlines & performance. The nice part about AWS is young horse can move up with performance scores.

When *I personally* looked into AWR about 6 years ago now, they told me they would not look at my horses (I had three to present that year) because they had 1/8 APHA or 1/16 ASB. AWS looks at them regardless of pedigree, but registers them in the appropriate book if there are holes in the pedigree. (i.e may score 'Elite' but without the full pedigree, will only go in the Premium book... )

NOT every horse presented AWS is approved for breeding. Only the highest scorings *and* bloodlines are approved for breeding. My stallion had a horrible day at his AWS Inspection, and even though he scored well enough (and they loved him) for RPSI Book I when I presented him there, he was off by .08% to be Approved for Breeding AWS. I can either take him again, or go the performance route. That works for me--it was a Very Bad Day and he deserved the score he got that day.

I personally was treated quite rudely by AWR *way back then* when I was looking at both. AWS was friendly and helpful. I'm told now that AWR will look at horses with a degree of American blood... but back then they didn't want my money and were rather rude about it. I'm told there have been staffing changes, but I also know (personally) of at least two other people who just didn't even get common courtesy or professionalism. So that obviously colours what I recommend.

Beyond that, take a close look at the Awards programs, if that is your cuppa. They differ a bit. Pick the one that has the awards that you would be interested in going for. Or obviously, the Stallions you like. Many, many are double approved. ;)

Personally I have found the AWS inspections I've been to to be incredibly educational & professional, and the judging to be quite strict, and very, very close to RPSI. I'm happy with that.

Finally, what are you looking to breed the mare TO? It might be MORE worth your time and money to pick a stallion FIRST, then find out if there are pre-books in his registry, and go for one of those. Many if not most of the Euro registries will make you do that anyway, they don't recognize the American registries.

[pintopiaffe]

Adding...

I still wish there was a 'sporthorse' book... I am not saying my 5/8 Arabs are WBs of *any* nationality... but they certainly are SPORTHORSES.

Much of the Euro WB breeders irk with the US reg's is that some folks go and get a horse Inspected/Approved, and then proceed to call them a WB when technically, they are not at all what one would consider "WB" with a 'capital' W. ;)

My colt is by two RPSI Approved parents. Does that make him Zwiebruken? Maybe. Maybe not. :winkgrin:

[JB]

Very nice posts pp :D

[DharmaO]

I didn't realize this could be a potential kettle of worms! Glad to see it has all been ok... I am a true pacifist and intend no ill will towards any group.

My mare is 3/4 TB and 1/4 Holsteiner. She has a performance record; her sire is Loyal Pal (TB) and dam an unregistered TB/Holsteiner; all grandparents are known, so I have her full pedigree.

I do not have a specific stallion picked out, but I love Hanoverians and likely would go towards those bloodlines (a particular favorite of mine for several years has been Donarwiess GGF) She has a lot of "heat" in her pedigree already, though, so would tend towards something that would off set that, not augment it.

I am quite, quite new to this world of sport horse breeding. I am not intimately familiar with PHR; I thought they had to be full TB to be registered there? Forgive my ignorance, I am open to learn more.

I just thought that one of these registries (AWS, AWR) would best suit a crossbred performance horse like mine; if there is a different direction that I should be looking please help me learn!

[JB]

If you edit your subject to include that the mare is 3/4 TB 1/4 Hol you might attract some folks who know the ins and outs of pre- books for which your mare *might* be eligible, opening up a whole world of approved stallions for you :)

[spacely]

I would definitely go RPSI or ISR rather than either of the American registries. Your foal will only get a COP & half brand (or the ISR equivalent) but IMO it's a better way to go.

[eventer80]

Okay.......I just went and checked the RPSI website and ran across something called the North American Sport Horse Foundation. What is that?

[turningpointequine]

I took my Hols/TB colt to his AWR inspection in Oct 09. It was my first time dealing with this registry and found them to be wonderful. Whenever I called the organization with a question they answered me promptly and were curteous. The inspection was very informative (during the awards ceremony the inspectors described exactly why they made the decisions they did) and I found them to be fairly judged. Some horses scored great, some the book below and some were turned away. Not only have I seen some wonderful horses through this organization but have met some great people as well. A deciding factor in me choosing AWR over AWS was that they do not allow draft blood. It's purely a personal opinion but I am one who does not believe a draft/TB cross makes a warmblood so strayed away from the AWS. I don't believe either registry is "bad". Once again, it will be personal opinion which you ultimately choose and why. Your horse will be the same horse, with the same pedigree, no matter what the symbol at the top of the registration papers looks like.

[pintopiaffe]

Just for clarity and correctness' sake...

AWS WILL *record* and *inspect* draft blood. However, it will not be approved for the highest--breeding--book.

RPSI will record and inspect draft blood. Just won't APPROVE for BREEDING.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I would definitely go RPSI or ISR rather than either of the American registries. Your foal will only get a COP & half brand (or the ISR equivalent) but IMO it's a better way to go.

I agree. I do work with the Sportpony division of AWR (NASPR), and have been fairly happy with them. I wish they were more strict on pedigrees though... many approved mares and stallions don't have known pedigrees. Anyways, they have good customer service, and I've been happy enough working with them to keep my Welsh stallion activated. I plan to present another Welsh stallion to them this year.

For horses, I personally wouldn't register with either AWR or AWS, and would go with RPSI or ISR instead. I haven't worked with RPSI yet, but I've heard enough good things about them that I'm considering presenting both of my stallions for possible acceptance into the pony book.

[spacely]

Just for clarity and correctness' sake...

AWS WILL *record* and *inspect* draft blood. However, it will not be approved for the highest--breeding--book.

RPSI will record and inspect draft blood. Just won't APPROVE for BREEDING.

True but AWS isn't recognized by other Euro registries. RPSI is. I think both AWS & AWR are a joke, but that's my own personal opinion.

DD, RPSI is wonderful to work with. I think you'll be very happy with them.

[JWB]

Your mare may also qualify for the auxiliary book of the Belgian Warmblood Registry. Colts will not be eligible as stallion candidates but will be able to get papers and be branded BWP. I saw a nice yearling gelding get branded and registered last year... Dad was a BWP approved Holsteiner, mom was a Quarter Horse.

From the BWP site.....
There are two studbooks for mares approved for breeding by the BWP. The main studbook is for selected registered mares of a recognized sport horse breed, including most other European Warmbloods, Thoroughbreds, Arabs, and some other non-gaited breeds acknowledged by the Belgian Verband. The auxiliary stud book is for other select mares of unrecognized breeds or of unverifiable pedigree. All mares must be three years or older, over 15.1 hands, to be eligible for inspections for inclusion into either book. All studbook papers are issued by Belgium.

[MagicRoseFarm]

The AWR is a "breeding" Registry. Their interest lies in an American born gene pool capable of competing in (the Olympic disciplines) Dressage, ShowJumping, Eventing, Driving and national level Hunters.

They do not have "auxiliary" or "lesser" books for the sake of providing a place to register a horse. These type registries are ( basically) modeled after the old format used in Germany , where the (prior) Government of Agriculture required that all horses "have registration papers" as some kind as standard animal husbandry practice within that area.
Many different "books" (describing full bred from approved parentage, part bred, pony, part bred pony, small horse, Etc) were created in each geographic region (ie Hannover, Oldenburger, Rheineland Pfalz Szar, Wesphalia, etc) to allow "recording" of all livestock born within that region. Correct me if wrong, but it is my understanding these books were originally created for Census and Tax purposes, and later some regions expanded upon them as necessary.

IF you just want registration papers to compete for awards, then the USEF has the PHR registry, which is less expensive than many of the Euro associations and allows your monies to go to an American based governing body.
On another note regarding AWR- they recognize the overall importance of good mares in this gene pool. If your mare is later bred to any stallion ( in the world- not restricted by approval only within the AWR) she can then be inspected and receive breeding approval from the AWR at that time, foal at side. This resulting foal is eligible for full registration with the AWR ( there is a one time per any one stallion clause that allows this)

[pintopiaffe]

Magic Rose--that is an *excellent* description--I haven't heard it put that way before!

And you're absolutely right, AWS was started mostly for tracking purposes and recording, with only the upper books for breeding, which many people don't understand.

So that's a really good tool for me to put in my toolbox when people ask why one vs. the other.

Thanks for that perspective!

[not again]

Thanks for the clarification, Magic Rose! I want to add that the AWR does not require the 100 or 70 day test for Stallion licensing, or require that stallion owners surrender care, custody or control during any phase of the licensing process. Inspection begins in hand (conformation), loose schooling (movement and character), free-jumping (technique and attitude), foal quality evaluation (hereditary transmission), and performance testing and/or performance results to complete the process.
Great people to meet and learn from at the inspections too!

[MagicRoseFarm]

I love the idea that the AWR makes a noble effort in educating me as a breeder to make smarter choices, and allows me to use ANY stallion I deem suitable as the best possible match for my mare by not restricting me to only those stallions already approved. This also allows expansion of the gene pool, and credits me with the intelligence to make such a decision (if the result is a success).

I appreciate that the AWR democratically does not have strict restraint on its members breeding decisions, as the proof DOES show through in the success of the offspring. I personally feel this takes years of fore-sighted commitment on the registry's part, since "generational changes in performance and gene pool" can really only gradually evolve in 10 year increments (the minimal time necessary to bring a generation from birth to high level competition).

I also appreciate that the AWR considers that the US is very different in many ways ( ie. geographically, competition differences, practicality of testings, target markets,) than Europe, and is set up with these considerations in mind.

[irkenequine]

But in an unusual case like mine, where I know breeding back through grandparents on both sides (that goes back to Dutch/Hanoverian) however the sire is NOT registered though qualifies for both Dutch and Candian registries (though, I resubmit as I have many times, I did not breed this filly nor am I an advocate of unregistered, unproven sires throwing babies year after year) can she qualify for RSPI, or anything outside of AWS? Conformationally, size, and movement wise I think she could stand an inspection, but I was under the impression that unless you had papered parents you could not do any registry but the AWS? Anyone have light on this issue?

[MagicRoseFarm]

IRK > you can register her with the AWR ( unless another offspring by that sire has been registered) or the PHR if you have some kind of proof of parentage

[irkenequine]

I have proof of parentage (mom and dad are on site) and could do DNA but no papers. Maybe I'll just stick with PHR, that gives me an ability to show in yearling/in hand without dealing with the sticky stigma :P Thanks Magic.

[PineTreeFarm]

I have proof of parentage (mom and dad are on site) and could do DNA but no papers. Maybe I'll just stick with PHR, that gives me an ability to show in yearling/in hand without dealing with the sticky stigma :P Thanks Magic.

You can record your horse with PHR without the need for DNA. If you want the horse treated as 'breeding stock' with PHR then you do need to have DNA samples. And if neither parent has DNA on file you will probably have to submit samples from them as well. It could get expensive.
However if you want to show in age specific classes you will need some proof of age. But PHR is pretty flexible about what they will accept for proof.
Call them and explain your situation. They are pleasant to deal with.

[irkenequine]

Wonderful, I think I will. Thanks!

[pintopiaffe]

IRK, RPSI will put her in Pre-book, I'm pretty sure.

I presented my *Malachit daughter with only a copy of a signed-but-not-filled out stallion/breeding certificate from like 1972, and nothing on her dam except pedigree.

She scored well enough for Main Book, but had to be listed in the Pre-Book because of the lack of DNA, papers etc. She would have moved up if I'd been able to do DNA before loosing her, as *Malachit had blood on file.

So I'd definitely check with RPSI.

[thathorse]

Great information! Thank you all, from a lurker with similar questions in mind!