talk me out of this SOMEONE!

[europa]

http://www.canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1048:indian-river&catid=50:delaware-park-trainer-listings&directory=283

I am in love but I can't buy this mare....someone talk me out of this please!

[chemteach]

I am no help. I think you need that mare! Make them an offer.

[Go Fish]

Well, beautiful mare but I don't like her long, sloping pasterns and straight hind leg. Does that help? What would you be using her for?

[oharabear]

Yuck. How awful. You should send her directly to me. ;)

[europa]

She is a bit upright behind. I just love a nice TB mare......I would ride and breed.

[Melyni]

Why can't you buy her?
(like I don't understand the dilemma).
MW

[EqTrainer]

You are asking the wrong people to talk you out of this.

[Iron Horse Farm]

I really like her look. I think with a bit of weight (instead of racing fit - she's not really "skinny") she will look even better!:winkgrin:

[3horsemom]

i am sorry but i cannot talk you out of this mare. you will thank me later.

[hansiska]

Go get her!!! :D

[katerenee]

Yeah don't get her. I mean who even likes big beautiful dark dapple greys anyway??...:lol:

[AppJumpr08]

What everyone else said :yes:
She is a bit straight behind, but is a very pretty girl. She looks like she wants to be yours alright! :D

[rmh_rider]

I agree VERY much with GoFish.

I wouldn't breed a post/straight legged mare.

Lovely dotty grey color. Lovely TB type too.

[kookicat]

You are asking the wrong people to talk you out of this.

I agree with this. When is she coming? :lol:

[JER]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

As GoFish and rmh pointed out, those pasterns are not good. With this particular combo of back and front, I don't see this mare staying sound.

And I wouldn't breed a mare with these pasterns unless she were a world-beater and I'd found a stallion who was guaranteed to produce better legs.

(Just my opinion on her conformation as presented in that photo.)

[RyTimMick]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

As GoFish and rmh pointed out, those pasterns are not good. With this particular combo of back and front, I don't see this mare staying sound.

And I wouldn't breed a mare with these pasterns unless she were a world-beater and I'd found a stallion who was guaranteed to produce better legs.

(Just my opinion on her conformation as presented in that photo.)


and I would add that she is has little feet and a small, shaved off croup, and a big barrel. I wouldn't pay 2 cents for her, even if I did just give them to you. I think some are blinded by her color. IMHO


Tim

[caddym]

Have you dealt with CANTER before?

I have not, but I looked at a very nice mare from a CANTER afiliate in the NE and there was a stipulation that the mare could NOT be used for breeding. The reasoning being that there were allready too many horses.

[AppJumpr08]

Have you dealt with CANTER before?

I have not, but I looked at a very nice mare from a CANTER afiliate in the NE and there was a stipulation that the mare could NOT be used for breeding. The reasoning being that there were allready too many horses.

Trainer listed horses generally come with no stipulations.

CANTER horses, on the other hand, do. The difference being that the trainer listed horses are property of their owners, and the CANTER horses are property of whatever CANTER chapter you may be dealing with. You have to fill out an adoption application and sign a contract for those horses, and that contract does include a no breeding for racing stipulation.
As far as I know, breeding for sport is just fine.

[judybigredpony]

That meet was over back in November, fat chance mare is still available...Europa did you call them like I asked you???

If she truly was 16.2 and truly sound n sane price was awefully low for a horse they were selling that still had starts available.
I smell fish...........

CANTER has no rules when you buy directly from the seller, its up to you and seller to establish those guidlines.

If you were buying a horse owned by CANTER, thats a whole nother set of stipulations.

Unless the seller returns a horses papers to JC you can breed what ever you buy, they can't really stop you.
Even if they withheld papers she has a lip tatto and every piece of paper you sign has a loop hole.
What if you re-sold mare and someone else bred her.
Or you bred to other than a TB???

[judybigredpony]

and I would add that she is has little feet and a small, shaved off croup, and a big barrel. I wouldn't pay 2 cents for her, even if I did just give them to you. I think some are blinded by her color. IMHO


Tim


Both of you are smoking lead shanks...Her butt is no where near shaved off and her angles and proportions are lovely.
Yes the right front pastern does look a tad long but her ankles look good n clean and she appears to have a decent round foot. Every thing faces the same direction and a leg out of each corner.
Pedigree wise..on top being a Glitterman helps tremendously he produces lovely mares.
The Northern Jove on bottom is nice to see. and paint her any color she is still a nicely proportioned mare from 1 view w/ 1 camera.
I probably look at more TB's in a week than some of see in a year. Looking at to buy not voyuer and Europa has a Great eye as well:)

[Zu Zu]

Yuck. How awful. You should send her directly to me. ;)
:cool:This

[vineyridge]

We're talking about biomechanics on another board, and straight hind legs came up. In many situations they are a good thing.
“In the hind leg, the longest stride is attained if the hind legs can straighten fully, without any wasted motion. Many of the best racehorses have a relatively level rump and moderate hock and stifle angles to allow the hind leg to swing freely like a pendulum. If the hocks and stifles are too bent (too much angle – sickle hocks), there is some loss of time in straightening out the joints at each stride. There is more circular motion before the hock can get into position to drive the horse’s body forward. A straighter leg can swing farther and faster, beginning its forward motion from the point of the toe, with no loss of motion between the ground and the top of the hock.
* * * *
Because of this factor, some breeders select for relatively straight hocks and stifles (post legged) because the straighter leg can swing faster. However, if joints are too straight, this can lead to slipped patella (and locked stifles) and damage to the stifle joint, as well as more stress on parts of the hock joint.
This is from an HPBA article.

Winsome Adante, one of the truly great modern 4* event horses, is very straight behind. Even so he was incredibly successful at the highest levels of his discipline and competed for years.

As to pasterns, Here is a quote from a paper that Daniel Marks gave on functional conformation and soundness at one of the AAEP conventions.
Front Pastern Conformation
It is frequently stated that long sloping pasterns in
the front leg predispose to suspensory and superficial
flexor tendon strain. While there is an intuitive
appeal to this, it is the author’s experience that
the opposite is more likely. Dr. Joe Cannon has
pointed out that long upright pasterns in racehorses
lead to a high incidence of suspensory apparatus
injuries.b Dr. Ron Genovese agrees and observes
that upright pasterns are also more frequent in
horses that bow.c Horace Hayes says: “Long sloping
pasterns are easier on suspensories and necessary
on hard ground.”28 The author has observed
that long sloping pasterns in race horses (which are
more common in stayers) are likely to run down, but
otherwise are not a problem.
Upright and especially short, upright pasterns,
predispose to proximal interphalangeal joint disease.
While not a common racehorse ailment, it is
significant in jumpers and other performance
horses. Top dressage horses must have some
length and slope to their pasterns otherwise the
suspension and cadence they require in their gait is
not possible.

[cajunbelle]

I don't care for her neck, little on the short side, for me.

[EqTrainer]

I like horses w/shorter necks. Easier to keep straight. Long necks are pretty to look at, a behotch to keep correctly out in front of you.

The pasterns.. honestly, when people start in about long pasterns I wonder if they actually ride horses or just breed/look at them. I would so much rather have a longer pasterned horse than a shorter one - my back and neck are tired of those jarring pasterns. One reason I tend to dislike draft horses - those upright, short pasterns..

they look nice, they don't ride nice.

[Go Fish]

It's not just that the pasterns are long on this mare...the slope would cause me serious concern if she was to have a jumping career. They are not lining up with the bony column at all.

I stand by what I said about the straight hind end, or more accurately, she has no angulation at all. This seriously affects how the horse uses it's hind end over jumps. Trailing hind ends are a no-no. Bury a horse built like this at a jump and it will have a hard time getting you out of trouble.

I would pass on this mare for a hunter/jumper career as I would have serious concerns on her future soundness.

[EqTrainer]

I think some of the slope you see is that she is on grass, which gives, her feet might be quite long (I think they are but cannot say for sure) and she is 3 years old and downhill at this moment. The downhill part will also directly influence the hind end angles.

I say this because I routinely look out my window and see my well conformed horses looking like freaks and it took me a few years to be able to figure out why they didn't look that way when mature and stood up correctly on flat ground!

I think when she is 5 her "parts is parts" look will have come together.

[grayarabpony]

You guys want to see some straight hind legs? Here are some: http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/conformation_for_an_eventer.pdf (and yes, I think Winsome Adante looks like a conformational nightmare even if he did win how many 4*s).

Her front toes look long and the feet look forward, but let's face it, she's been at the racetrack. In a year's time her feet might look quite different.

[Go Fish]

I think some of the slope you see is that she is on grass, which gives, her feet might be quite long (I think they are but cannot say for sure) and she is 3 years old and downhill at this moment. The downhill part will also directly influence the hind end angles.

I would run an imaginary line down the back of her leg to the ground. Where are her heel bulbs, in your opinion, in relation to the bony column? That's my issue - it's a conformation fault...she won't grow out of it. It has nothing to do with the length of her feet or the fact that she is slightly downhill at the moment (I see her as more level, not downhill).

Her angulation will not improve...it is what it is. I also can't tell real well from the photo, but she appears weak in the stifle...quite common in horses that are too straight behind.

There are a lot of things I LIKE about this mare. Much would depend on her future career..what her new owners would want to do with her. Despite her conformation faults, she may never take a lame step. Stranger things have happened! :)

[Go Fish]

You guys want to see some straight hind legs? Here are some: http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/conformation_for_an_eventer.pdf (and yes, I think Winsome Adante looks like a conformational nightmare even if he did win how many 4*s).

Her front toes look long and the feet look forward, but let's face it, she's been at the racetrack. In a year's time her feet might look quite different.

I don't think he's as straight as the mare. I think he's high-hocked, though.

[Simkie]

Oh, thank god. She's grey. I'm not a fan of them :D

If you're looking for reasons NOT to go grab her...I do think she is quite light in the bone department. Her ankles look largish, too me, for the bone she does have. And, recalling my Practical Horseman Conformation column, she looks a bit tied in below the knee. And she does not break into thirds nicely (her neck, back and butt do not = each other.) I am not a fan of her hind end.

Other than that, I think she has a lovely neck that so often comes with greys, and I do like her pedigree.

[Equilibrium]

I think the mare is overall very nice, but I do really hate those pasterns. And yes, I do breed and I do ride. They aren't just a little long and sloppy, they are quite exaggerated. I have seen much straighter hind ends on horses and I don't think hers is much of an issue.

Terri

[JER]

I don't care for her neck, little on the short side, for me.

IME, this is often the case with a 3 year-old TB and the next year, you get a better idea of the 'real' neck.

[grayarabpony]

I don't think he's as straight as the mare. I think he's high-hocked, though.

Are you kidding me?

[grayfox]

I think she's a beautiful mare. I think her neck is a little short but not bad. I don't think her pasterns are too long. I think she's a stunning color. I think you should you should buy her.

[judybigredpony]

Well fans I spent the $2.00 on my Brisnet account, she is running @ Penn.
Will ask someone up there to go look @ those slopey pasturns and ankles.
Last start Nov 13th don't see any glaring holes in her start record.

INDIAN RIVER 2006 GR/RO F, by CHAMPALI 2000 -- CHEYENNE RIVER 1990
by NORTHERN JOVE 1968

Br-SCOTT E. RICKER & (KY) 2009 8 1 0 1 $12,340
Own-ARRIAGADA JUAN Tr-PECORARO ANTHONY
Lifetime 8 1 0 1 $12,340 Turf 0 0 0 0 $0

trk tr wnrs length
date race# dist cd time wt fp behind trainer race type RR CL SR
---- ----- ------ -------- --- -- ------ ------- ------------ ----- ----- ---
13No09PEN7 1m70y FT1:47.2 117 5 8 1/2 PECORARO Clm 5000n2l 106.8 108.2 62
21Oc09DEL8 1 1/16 FT1:48.11115 5 13 1/2PECORARO Clm 7500n2l 108.5 107.6 59
12Oc09DEL5 1m FT1:44.01155 1 hd PECORARO Md 7500 104.0 107.2 62
29Sp09DEL5 6f WF1:14.11145 4 7 3/4 PECORARO Md 7500 103.9 104.2 54
15Sp09DEL3 6f FT1:12.4 119 5 16 PECORARO Md 7500 106.0 103.4 51
01Sp09DEL4 5.5f FT1:08.3 119 3 1 1/2 PECORARO Md 7500 103.5 105.5 55
05Ag09DEL3 1m FT1:44.0 118 4 11 1/2WERNER R Md 7500c 104.7 103.5 52
12Jy09DEL4 5.5f FT1:06.1 118 9 21 1/4WERNER R Md 40000 108.3 104.3 48

[RyTimMick]

Let me be clear, if the purpose of this mare is to be ridden, then no problem. Ride her until she says she can't be ridden anymore. The upright hind end will never improve, and will challenge the horse in a jumping career. The long pasterns will make it more difficult to break over. This could create a nice, longer stride for hunters if the hind end engages. As Gofish stated, the straight hind end will likely create her movement to be behind her, as runners tend to be. Her week stifles will likely be the demise of her riding career in the future. Her short neck will improve with age, and I find no problem with it, other then it being low(not for a TB). This is personal preferences for riding, but breeding, NO. It is for this reason you have gotten some great critacism. You do not know how she moves, her mother, sisters, brothers, etc. What we do know is that she is not wanted by other racing breeders, and some sport horse breeders have concerns. In my opinion (which may mean nothing) if you want a broodmare, get one that has either already produced well, or at least has a sport career, or a filly out of a great producing mother(my particular favorite). Learn the family and proceed. A good one will cost you more then $2,500, and should. An enjoyable riding horse does not need that high of a bar. Good luck

Tim

[FairWeather]

Have you dealt with CANTER before?

I have not, but I looked at a very nice mare from a CANTER afiliate in the NE and there was a stipulation that the mare could NOT be used for breeding. The reasoning being that there were allready too many horses.

the others already pointed out that this is a privately owned horse, but even CANTER owned horses can be bred--they just cannot be bred to create racehorses. (My own personal feeling is that horses should not be bred at all until they prove themselves in *something*)

[Go Fish]

Are you kidding me?

Run a line from the point of the hock to the knee.

He has more angulation than the mare - he appears straighter than he is because of the high hocks. Somewhat better stifles, too, but not perfect.

[ASBJumper]

I echo what Tim said.

This is not a good example of a high quality TB mare.
There ARE thoroughbreds out there with nicer, higher-set necks that are built uphill, have good angles behind, have good bone and good feet.
This mare is not one of them.

As for the long, sloped pasterns - it's not just that alone that is concerning people. It's the combination of that plus the lack of bone and small feet, combined with a fairly substantial body, that would worry me for breeding - especially if you're thinking of crossing her to a WB sire. If she's 16.2hh at 3 and has those tiny little stick legs and feet... oy.. that would scare me. Big time.

[grayarabpony]

I'm drawing a line from the pt of ischium and femur down to the ground. Winsome Adante's back legs are very very straight.

Livingstone has high hocks too, but his hind legs are not as straight.

This mare doesn't look balanced to me now, but she is only 3, and the racetrack front feet aren't helping her. If she is now in the middle of a growth spurt, she may look quite different at 4 or 5.

btw I'm a believer in moderation in most things, including conformation. :) I've never owned a horse with very straight hind legs and was very much struck (OK shocked) when I first saw WA's picture.

I have always wanted to compare conformation shots of different horses who have excelled for years in sport; unfortunately those kinds of shots are rare.

[EqTrainer]

She is *three*. And who knows she might really only be two, considering how TB's get to be a year older automatically on January 1!

Most TB's grow in what I call "parts is parts". And when they are butt high, their back legs often look straight. She looks LESS freaky then many of them do at 3. TB's also IME lay down bone after they are done growing height, very different than a WB, who usually has substantial bone and then grows the body into fitting the lower leg bone he has at an early age.

Is she perfect? No. But when her parts come together I think she will be much better built than a lot of people here suspect.

[Vindicated]

Normally I dislike people pulling horses apart the way this thread has been. Then I looked again at the horse

You can do better for that price.