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horseladi78
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:08 PM
Why is it some trainers, BNT, have no ethics??? I have a kid at my farm, 12, that just got a horse for Christmas. Sounds like a wonderful present correct?? Well the horse is a 4 yr old, TBX, mare, that trots in canters out lines, green. The kid is a short stirrup kid who just finished 2009 in short stirrup with her bombproof pony. Mom decided that buying a fancy prospect was the way to go, and thinks kid can ride and has talent. :cool: Mare has a reputation already as being "wired wrong" and when broke, flipped completely over on the rider breaking it. It was turned back out and restarted later. Kid has confidence issues and is not the bravest kid when she gets on something forward. Kid has never riden anything green other then her bombproof pony who could careless what she did, his answer was always whatever. So now this trainer is from a BN hunter barn and pushed and pushed for the sale of this horse to these people. WHY??? The horse was in full training at their barn, but at our barn, trainer will only come to give the kid lessons and the mare will no longer be getting pro rides. Mom thinks kid is a natural and can handle and ride their new "fancy" project. I know this kid, as I trained her for over a year and the pony. But really why do some BNT or even LNT, or anyone for that matter forget all ethics when selling a horse esp for a kid??? These people flashed their money, told the trainer they wanted fancy and this is what they got. UGH. Anyway rant over............

RockinHorse
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:18 PM
So now this trainer is from a BN hunter barn and pushed and pushed for the sale of this horse to these people.

How do you know that this is the case?

horseladi78
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:23 PM
because i know the barn, trainers and know that this trainer "pushes" sales... this horse has been for sale for several months and could not get sold

magnolia73
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:27 PM
These people flashed their money, told the trainer they wanted fancy and this is what they got.

Were you privy to ALL the conversations? Perhaps the mare is in full training, to be ridden only under supervision. You said the mare is wired and reared- but then maybe they got past the issue- a lot of that can be fixed with diet, turnout and not a lot of effort. My mare was a nut the first two months I owned her- now you can ride her in icy wind on the buckle and you'd still be needing spurs.

Maybe for the money they had, this was the only way they could get flashy- the cute photo journal of the OTTB and the SS kid comes to mind.

theoldgreymare
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:34 PM
My question would be why was a SS kid and mom horse shopping without a trainer present?

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:36 PM
In defense of the BNT, I have been in the past the idiot who bought a young green horse for my child (& myself). In fact, I have made more stupid mistakes buying horses then I have making good decisions! It took me a lot of money to stop picking my own horses & pay a professional who has my best interest at heart. All trainers are trying to get rid of horses that they don't like or want in their barns. Some send these animals to lower level trainers to get rid of them. It is buyer beware out there. This may be a good example of why we need to have an organization that certifies trainers. Then we need owners, riders & parents to find out who the certified trainers are & then use them & only them. Usually the BNT's won't sell a horse if they don't believe in the animal. It should & will ruin their reputation.

This sounds like a sad situation for both the child & the horse. Keep us posted. I'll be interested to see how long it takes the parents to realize what has happened.

magnolia73
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:42 PM
Oh- reread- no full training....

There is always the possibility it is a great prospect. And you'd be suprised- sometimes an ambitious parent pushes for the wrong horse.

horseladi78
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:48 PM
It just seems such an unwise decision. If I had not trained this kid for a year, I could careless but I did and I let them go because the Mom was to overzealous about the kid winning. Maybe the mare will work out, but I don't see this kid being able to handle a green horse, let alone a green mare who has a history of being wired wrong, not just physically but the lineage of this mare too has been known for being difficult. Obviously the said mare can't be of that great of quality temperment wise or the mare would not have been sold outside this trainers barn. Mom thinks she got a bargain!

MIKES MCS
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:49 PM
MAybe the trainer that sold the horse to the people is HOPING the horse won't work out where the horse is or with the kids present trainer and the parents will blame the kids trainer and move to the BNT barn thereby giving him the sale of the horse, a new boarder , a new student , and a horse is full traing . Cha Ching If this is not possible then your right the trainer needed to dump the horse..

mvp
Jan. 4, 2010, 04:59 PM
Yeah, but OP, this is barely your problem, right?

The kid rides with the BNT who sold her (mom) the horse, but keeps it at your place?

If so, it seems like you have two choices. Do what you can to keep the kid safe while she's on your property. And/or ask the BNT what the plan is for keeping the kid safe and progressing. I don't see how the trainer can think this will work without the horse in full training with pro rides. You may lose a boarder in the process. If you weren't their trainer at the time, then unfortunately, you didn't get a say in their purchase.

Usually, one of the things that keeps trainers honest is that they have to train whatever POS horse they convince their clients to buy. It may work out best in the long run if you send the family to the BNT who made the mess... and wait for the scales to fall from their eyes. Perhaps the kid will come back to you for the next one.

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 05:58 PM
It just seems such an unwise decision. If I had not trained this kid for a year, I could careless but I did and I let them go because the Mom was to overzealous about the kid winning. Maybe the mare will work out, but I don't see this kid being able to handle a green horse, let alone a green mare who has a history of being wired wrong, not just physically but the lineage of this mare too has been known for being difficult. Obviously the said mare can't be of that great of quality temperment wise or the mare would not have been sold outside this trainers barn. Mom thinks she got a bargain!

There you go!!! The Mom was overzealous. That was me. I had to learn the hard way.
However, I admire you for being caring & concerned & obviously "good guy" trainer. There should be more of you & your type of ethical trainer out there.
I "hopefully" have learned my lesson. From now on I listen intently to what I'm being told. Then.....I don't trust my own judgment.....I trust my trainers.

RugBug
Jan. 4, 2010, 06:04 PM
Mom decided that buying a fancy prospect was the way to go, and thinks kid can ride and has talent. :cool:

<snip>

Mom thinks kid is a natural and can handle and ride their new "fancy" project.

This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 07:33 PM
This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.

You are right. Buyer BEWARE. The professional's job is to sell the horse. The parent's job is to find the safest horse for the child. Professional did their job....did the parent??

meupatdoes
Jan. 4, 2010, 07:43 PM
Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.

ambar
Jan. 4, 2010, 07:49 PM
These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.


This would have been a new-keyboard moment had I not long since learned not to drink and read COTH at the same time. :D

Ghazzu
Jan. 4, 2010, 07:50 PM
I used to ride with someone who, more than once, flat out told a potential buyer, "No--I will not sell you this horse. You can speak directly with the owner, but I will not be involved in the transaction."

As a DVM, I consider suitability to be an integral part of the PPE when I'm dealing with a kid's horse. Especially when there are signs the parent is not as knowledgeable as they like to think. I'll give them a very blunt opinion about the potential for carnage.
The non-horsey types all seem to think their kid is the next Margie Goldstein-Engle...

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 07:56 PM
Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.

I WAS this idiotic mother/buyer/rider. I was wrong, I was dumb/stupid. I was the mom of a talented kid with little money (compared to what we needed to do the big eq). I thought that I had the answers. I was wrong. I thought that because I had ridden & shown that I knew what was needed. I was WRONG. This mom is also probably wrong. She will learn a very hard lesson. If she is being cheap with the horse, it is probably because they can not compete at the level of Bruce Springsteen's (I hope that I spelled that correctly) daughter. Although, his daughter is exceptionally talented.

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:00 PM
Try selling a quiet, safe, easy-to-ride Appendix QH that is about 15h tall and could teach anyone how to jump little courses and do second level dressage, and could take them politely around the horseshows tomorrow, and you will see just how much more people want to spend twice as much money (literally, in this case) on something fancier and completely unsuitable.

These people don't listen to trainers; they listen to their delusions of grandeur and romantic fantasies of how wonderful life will be when they eventually (and hopefully before Christ's return) learn to ride their new horse, maybe even at all three gaits.

But of course when it goes wrong the trainer gets blamed.

Can I have The Noodle????

Please???

eqinegirl
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:01 PM
I used to ride with someone who, more than once, flat out told a potential buyer, "No--I will not sell you this horse. You can speak directly with the owner, but I will not be involved in the transaction."

As a DVM, I consider suitability to be an integral part of the PPE when I'm dealing with a kid's horse. Especially when there are signs the parent is not as knowledgeable as they like to think. I'll give them a very blunt opinion about the potential for carnage.
The non-horsey types all seem to think their kid is the next Margie Goldstein-Engle...

Thank you

meupatdoes
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:01 PM
This sounds like more the issue to me. Why do mom and kid both think she's up to this challenge? Sounds like a trainer wasn't too honest about poopsie's abilities and the kind of horse they should be looking for. The second they started looking for "fancy" the trainer should've gotten involved and said poopsie wasnt' ready for fancy unless it's a super quiet saint of a fancy horse.

I find less fault with the seller than the buyer and the people on her side of the equation.

See my post above.

Scared lady who has never ridden past Training level comes tries my horse, at our mutual trainer's suggestion.
Horse behaves beautifully despite torrential downpour, lady decides horse is not for her because she wants something, and I quote, "with bigger gaits". What kind of bigger gaits can you need when you have never executed First Level is beyond me, but whatever.

Goes on to spend twice as much money, against trainer's advice, on 4yo, which she "splurges" one month of pro training on (ha.), then takes it home and it takes off bucking with her down the long side within the month.


If I had a dollar for every quiet, safe, sane, forgiving packers that I have demo-ridden, be they my horses or someone else's horses, h/j or dressage, for scared middle -aged amateur women who turn them down, I would own Rumba by now. If I got another dollar for every one of them who later bought a more expensive and less suitable horse you could throw in In Disguise.

One person came to try my Appendix at his dressage barn, and it came out that a year ago she had tried another horse at a hunter barn that I had demo ridden for quite a few ladies, turned HIM down (and I know that horse, he would have been PERFECT for her), and bought an 18h behemoth instead, that scared the bejeesus out of her, and was now a year later looking at mine as a confidence builder, but not to buy only to lease, because she really wanted a bigger horse.

Ultimately, in the end, the person holding the check book makes the decision. The fact that they are usually completely unqualified to make this decision does not stop them from ignoring any advice. People would object STRONGLY to handing the trainer a check and saying, "Find me something, I trust your judgment, whatever shows up in the barn after you buy it I will ride, and I will not care if it has a hammer head or won't win the hack I just want to learn to jump 2'6"" but the less advanced you are the more you need that.
Never going to happen though.

If only their checkbook pays for their mistake, they are lucky.

Jsalem
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:07 PM
A LOT of people have to learn the hard way.

meupatdoes
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:08 PM
Can I have The Noodle????

Please???

Ahaha, everyone loves The Noodle.
The Noodle moved to TX with me and is not for sale.


Come visit though, and he will gladly hunt your kid around the 3'. Anyone is welcome, he loves new friends.
:)

judybigredpony
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:22 PM
In defense of the BNT, I have been in the past the idiot who bought a young green horse for my child (& myself). In fact, I have made more stupid mistakes buying horses then I have making good decisions! It took me a lot of money to stop picking my own horses & pay a professional who has my best interest at heart. All trainers are trying to get rid of horses that they don't like or want in their barns. Some send these animals to lower level trainers to get rid of them. It is buyer beware out there. This may be a good example of why we need to have an organization that certifies trainers. Then we need owners, riders & parents to find out who the certified trainers are & then use them & only them. Usually the BNT's won't sell a horse if they don't believe in the animal. It should & will ruin their reputation.

This sounds like a sad situation for both the child & the horse. Keep us posted. I'll be interested to see how long it takes the parents to realize what has happened.

I'm a seller and I think Sellers should be certified or held to a organized code of ethics.
I have told buyers to get off a horse because it was not suitable for them.
I have put a horse more in tune w/ buyers finances and level of skill under them.
But in the end if they "Insist" on writting the check its on their head notmine.

And you know I hate it when a trainer gets involved. There's the $$ issue, some just have to have a piece of your profit to approve a sale.
Other trainers don't,won't approve a horse unless they find it, or its from one of their Personal Posse.
And perfectly competent buyres are afraid to buy a horse even if its 1005 PERFECT for them w/O the trainers approval, because they fear retribution when they bring it into the barn.
Or know they are going to have to pay the trainer a commision on a sale they had nothing to do with.
Ya know its just a nasty business wonder why we keep doing it to ourselves...must be the horses.......

Sugarbrook
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:39 PM
AMEN, Janet. PS. how are my boys?

RugBug
Jan. 4, 2010, 08:47 PM
Ultimately, in the end, the person holding the check book makes the decision. The fact that they are usually completely unqualified to make this decision does not stop them from ignoring any advice. People would object STRONGLY to handing the trainer a check and saying, "Find me something, I trust your judgment, whatever shows up in the barn after you buy it I will ride, and I will not care if it has a hammer head or won't win the hack I just want to learn to jump 2'6"" but the less advanced you are the more you need that.
Never going to happen though.


I absolutely agree with your posts. The OP made it sound like the buyers didn't have trainer input, and I think that if a trainer gets wind of a client going so far off course with a purchase that they should have a heart to heart to help them out. THEN if the client refuses to listen, so be it.

Personally, I just downgraded on the fancy/talent scale myself. First horse has WOW factor but makes my job tough and has turned me into a tense rider. New horse was purchased to continue confidence building at 2'9" -3'. I bought him even though he's not that great of a mover and probably isn't going to jump much more than 3' AND I wasn't sure I thought he was attractive. After 6 months, I think he's quite attractive. I am hoping to keep him for a few years and then re-home him for the next person needing a non-fancy confidence builder. Too bad he's TB...it will make it more difficult.

WOW horse is maybe-for-sale. I'm not marketing but someone did come my way to inquire about him. The parent described the child (16 yrs old) as an intermediate rider. They mentioned a show the rider had attended and I knew where to find the photos of that show. I looked the rider up and as soon as the photos loaded, I stopped considering any sort of sale...or even allowing them coming to try the horse. Girl would've been over-horsed and in a dangerous situation had I let the process continue.

Sadly, while the parents hold the checkbook, the trainer really needs to do their best to guide them to the right horse. Doesn't mean they would listen, but at least due diligence has been done.

tailgate
Jan. 4, 2010, 09:08 PM
Sorry, I have witnessed many times when trainer has sold very green 3/4/5/6 home bred, or bad cheap import or fire sale horse. This is the line I hear out of her mouth everytime and quote "They will grow and learn together". 99% of the time they were absolute disasters and most 4/5 years later still are, owners moved on, but stuck with horse. Some and I am not saying by anymeans all just want to make the sale.

When you find a good decent trainer or horse dealer thats honest, you will find that it's in their best interest to sell you a good horse for a fair price. Return business in my opinion is way more profitable than a 10% or whatever amount you get out of a one off deal.

headsupheelsdown
Jan. 4, 2010, 09:20 PM
Oh that is the one that totally irritates me to no end!

Trainers that get beginners to buy two or three year olds "so they could grow and learn together!". What it really is is that the trainer just wants their mortgage paid several times over! The youngster needs to be boarded and trained, and in the meantime the beginner needs to lease something else to take lessons on!

makes me mad.

RugBug
Jan. 4, 2010, 09:21 PM
Sorry, I have witnessed many times when trainer has sold very green 3/4/5/6 home bred, or bad cheap import or fire sale horse. This is the line I hear out of her mouth everytime and quote "They will grow and learn together". 99% of the time they were absolute disasters and most 4/5 years later still are, owners moved on, but stuck with horse. Some and I am not saying by anymeans all just want to make the sale.


Seller's trainer/agent should sell the horse if someone is willing to buy (unless otherwise instructed).

BUYER's trainer/agent should be the one nixing or strongly advising against the purchase of an inappropriate horse.

If buyer's trainer is the seller's trainer/agent, they shouldn't be selling their client too much horse.

tailgate
Jan. 4, 2010, 09:37 PM
Rugbug that would be a perfect world, but you know as well as I do what actually goes on. BUT it seems to be the almighty $$$$$ that dictates the deal and the gift of the gab.

I just imported another horse for my daughter from Europe and this is the first time in my life that I got a breakdown of every fee and cost with a return cheque. Will I use this agent again, he has got my vote and the first one I turn to if and when I need another horse. Horse is more than we hoped for and way cheaper than our budget, I promise you this was a first. Trainer and trainers agent haggled back and forth with seller to get the best deal for us. Trainer got less commision, also a huge first. Ethics pays huge, new trainer shocked that this is not how business is done in our part of the country.

Jsalem
Jan. 4, 2010, 09:55 PM
Hi Sandy! The boys are great. It is FREEZING here in the ATL. They are both lovely gentlemen....

CosMonster
Jan. 4, 2010, 10:53 PM
It is really disappointing when people have no ethics. I don't know how someone could knowingly sell an unsuitable horse to a novice, and especially not to a child. Unfortunately it does happen a lot.

That said, I'll admit one time I sold an unsuitable horse to someone who misrepresented her situation. She came out once with a trainer and tried the horse, and it went okay with the trainer riding first (I rode first, of course), then came out again on her own. I had reservations about her riding ability as it was a young and somewhat difficult horse, but she told me very convincingly that the horse would be in full training and she would only be riding it under supervision of her trainer. It was the same deal--she thought she was quite the rider, wanted fancy rather than safe, and overestimated her ability.

Two months later she called me to ask to take back the horse and refund her money as the horse was dangerous--it had bucked off her 8 year old daughter 4 times! :eek: Turns out she had not had the horse in full training at all. There had also been no mention of a child riding the horse during the purchase. Fortunately the horse's breeder, who I worked for, was responsible and did as the buyer asked, and after three weeks of training the horse found a very nice home that still sends me updates periodically even though the breeder passed away and I'm no longer with that farm. :)

Still, the experience has left me with some sympathy for trainers who are accused of selling a dangerous horse, especially when the buyer is known to be pushy and overestimate their (or their child's) talent. I would not intentionally sell a horse to a bad situation, and more than once I have said no when I knew the horse was not a good match for the buyer. In hindsight I should have been more diligent in checking things out but really I'm kind of naive and would not expect someone to lie to me about things like that--I'd assume they want a good match as much as I do!

This post has gotten long so I'll just sum it up by saying if you're sure the BNT knowingly sold the horse, that's rotten, but if you don't and are just assuming you might want to hold off on judgment. I do think it's nice that you're still concerned for the child even though she's no longer your student.

Linny
Jan. 4, 2010, 11:40 PM
You are right. Buyer BEWARE. The professional's job is to sell the horse. The parent's job is to find the safest horse for the child. Professional did their job....did the parent??

While the pro's job is to sell the horse, there is a level of ethics. If a person enters your barn looking to buy a horse suitable for a somewhat timid 12yo child, how much horse you you (ethically) feel you should encourage for them?

I hate to say it but plenty of the frightening mismatches I see at shows etc are not from "backyard barns" but from BNT operations. Sometimes, horse was sold by BNT to lesser known trainer for a client, with the LNT and client assuming that BNT wouldn't steer them wrong. Others the student is a client of BNT who rushes them into "too much horse" and after profitting from the sale, collects training fees AND lease fees/day fees for use of his/her quiet, broke horses while client gets good enough to ride their own.
Everyone is so intimidated by the status of the BNT that they generally take no action, even if said horse is so unsuitable as to be dangerous.

ETA: As for the OP's not being "involved," she might not be part of this arrangement but she is asking as a way to learn more about the sport. Like most Moms who take their child to ride, they assume that the instructors and trainers and agents that they meet all want to see DD succeed and shine. I applaud her for wanting to educate herself. Often people post on here about these issues after they happen to them. The reply is often "educate yourself" or "the word 'horsetrader' wasn't just invented" or "chalk it up to a learning experience." It looks she is trying to understand, hopefully to be sure that if she buys a horse for her daughter, she gets the right one.

RockinHorse
Jan. 5, 2010, 08:12 AM
Other trainers don't,won't approve a horse unless they find it, or its from one of their Personal Posse.


I don't think this is so much a grand conspiracy as the fact that:


When you find a good decent trainer or horse dealer thats honest, you will find that it's in their best interest to sell you a good horse for a fair price. Return business in my opinion is way more profitable than a 10% or whatever amount you get out of a one off deal.

arizona101
Jan. 5, 2010, 08:29 AM
It gives me chills to see green kids on green horses. Regardless of what the parents know or dont know I have to sleep with what I do and I just couldnt sell a green horse to a timid,inexperienced kid. I know there are the freak cases that it works out but I bet there are a lot more that end with a kid sitting in the ER.

horseladi78
Jan. 5, 2010, 09:39 AM
okay well let me add more to it..... this was the first and only horse they looked at to purchase. This horse was traded for their pony. And this horse came out of said trainers barn. Trainer said " blah blah i have a great horse for sale for poopsie ( ha love that!!! ) and she would be PERFECT for your kid!! " Hence the ethical part. Yes I totally agree buyer beware, however, at what point is an uneducated or disillusioned parent solely the only one responsible for decisions in purchasing a horse, when they rely on their trainer to find what is suitable? I would have never looked at this horse for them. Green is one thing when its in training or even has a great brain in its head for a youngster, but this mare is barely green broke. It just makes me sick that some in this business only soley care about the money. There is just times when common sense should out weigh ones greed. Oh well such is life.....

Mara
Jan. 5, 2010, 10:04 AM
So you're saying now that the horse has moved from the other trainer's barn it won't be getting pro rides anymore.
When things have settled a bit, and you've had a chance to fully digest the entire situation and calm down some, what are the chances you could approach the parent to offer a couple of pro rides per week? Do you think the parent will pay for that? Will the trainer (who sold the mare) be agreeable or would it cause a fuss?
Not saying it will necessarily be a win-win situation, because the girl is still overfaced on a green horse (who may or may not be a bit wacky anyway). But you could help the horse, help the kid, and get some fees in your pocket if you approach this the right way.
It would suck to see the kid, who is so far at the mercy of the adults here, have a crap experience and give up on riding completely.

RockinHorse
Jan. 5, 2010, 10:18 AM
okay well let me add more to it..... this was the first and only horse they looked at to purchase. This horse was traded for their pony. And this horse came out of said trainers barn. Trainer said " blah blah i have a great horse for sale for poopsie ( ha love that!!! ) and she would be PERFECT for your kid!! " Hence the ethical part. Yes I totally agree buyer beware, however, at what point is an uneducated or disillusioned parent solely the only one responsible for decisions in purchasing a horse, when they rely on their trainer to find what is suitable? I would have never looked at this horse for them. Green is one thing when its in training or even has a great brain in its head for a youngster, but this mare is barely green broke. It just makes me sick that some in this business only soley care about the money. There is just times when common sense should out weigh ones greed. Oh well such is life.....

So were you there or are you getting all of this from the mother who thinks her child is a rock star?

I ask because I do know of a situation where I actually heard a trainer try to discourage someone from a purchase stating the horse was too green. Fast forward to after the purchase and the buyer was telling people that the trainer thought the horse would be a great match for her.

In other words, if you were not there, you really do have no idea what was said by either party.

monalisa
Jan. 5, 2010, 10:30 AM
Similar situation happened where I used to board. Mom and dad went out to buy horse for kid. Kid needs a packer, experienced horse since she has little experience. Go with trainer (not a BNT) and they buy her a beautiful and somewhat expensive horse that is a "throw away" from a BNT. The BNT cannot make this horse go. So kid gets it!!!!!

But it gets worse.

Take it to a new barn with different trainer, who takes it to her "crazy" vet who proclaims all this stuff is wrong with this horse and that is why this BNT could not make this horse go. Voila it is supposed to be fixed and new trainer thinks this pyscho vet hung the moon.

So $5-$10K later in vet bills they have a "new" horse that the kid will never be able to ride. If the BNT could not ride the horse, well, you get the picture.

So they finally went out and bought the kid a packer so now they are paying board on 2 horses - the new trainer is training the pretty horse so that the kid will someday be able to ride it.

Ugly, any way you look at it............

horseladi78
Jan. 5, 2010, 11:20 AM
I was the trainer of this child for over a year. I passed them on to this BNT since I was tired of dealing with the overzealous mother. All the Mom wanted was to win win and win and wanted results every lesson, every training ride. They became poor sports and as a justice to myself, I parted ways. The BNT has their own farm, horse was for sale thru this barn. BNT has another trainer who comes to my farm and teaches lessons to said kid and new horse. No the horse will no longer get pro rides on a reguraly basis. The kid and trainer are to do all the training on this horse via lessons. And no I will not train or ride this horse. The realtionship between me and them has dissolved and I thought they were in semi good hands. However, I now see that the mother has lost all sense of reality by purchasing this horse and has no regard for her childs safety at this time. She, the mother, believes 200% in this BNT and their wishes for what this child can and will be able to do with this horse.

RockinHorse
Jan. 5, 2010, 11:22 AM
I was the trainer of this child for over a year. I passed them on to this BNT since I was tired of dealing with the overzealous mother. All the Mom wanted was to win win and win and wanted results every lesson, every training ride. They became poor sports and as a justice to myself, I parted ways. The BNT has their own farm, horse was for sale thru this barn. BNT has another trainer who comes to my farm and teaches lessons to said kid and new horse. No the horse will no longer get pro rides on a reguraly basis. The kid and trainer are to do all the training on this horse via lessons. And no I will not train or ride this horse. The realtionship between me and them has dissolved and I thought they were in semi good hands. However, I now see that the mother has lost all sense of reality by purchasing this horse and has no regard for her childs safety at this time. She, the mother, believes 200% in this BNT and their wishes for what this child can and will be able to do with this horse.

Sounds like it is time to ask them to leave your farm completely...

Beenthere
Jan. 5, 2010, 12:28 PM
It would be difficult for me to keep my mouth shut. I would walk right up to mom and say "wow, that was not the horse I would have expected for X to have considering it's green and has a longway to go. Well it is nice to see you don't mind your daughter going backwards in her training for a few years while this new horse learns the ropes." Then wait about three months and use those four famous words "I TOLD YOU SO".....:)

Truth is we all know the end of the chapter. Horse will start acting up and they will blame the barn caretakers for poor feeding program or it's not getting out enough etc etc etc....isn't that always the answer when things go South when you move a horse.

Good luck and keep us updated

juniormom
Jan. 5, 2010, 12:29 PM
Tailgate - please pm me the name of who you used to find a horse and where you imported it from, as well as the name of your trainer. Sounds like a GREAT first to me! :)

This whole mess brings back horrible memories. We were stupid enough to "fall for this" not once, but twice! Our child can now handle a green prospect, but couldn't earlier. I vote for confidence builder any day over fancy. It's too bad that so many trainers just look at the commission, not what's best for the rider. We have seen so many horses bought/sold to people of inappropriate levels. It is awful! I have seen professional horses sold to amateurs. Just because they do well for a pro, doesn't mean they will for a kid or amateur. They are used to a "perfect ride." I am just a "mom" and scared of horses. I never rode much, just at camp, etc. so we were relying on trainers. (Had no clue as to the amount of dishonesty in horseworld!) I don't mind paying someone an honest commission and wish things were more "out in the open" and required legal contracts like real estate. It wouldn't be a perfect solution, but would be a good start. We had a bombproof one that won at Nationals that we ended up selling ourselves. I think the trainers didn't want to mess with him because he wasn't as expensive as others they could sell to someone. Go figure....... He has a GREAT home now and we are happy! He is teaching a lady in her 60's how to ride and is her confidence builder! :) We were even in one barn where BNT helped purchase horse (meanwhile we had no idea that her stallion was our horse's sire) and horse almost killed our kid! He would stand straight up and almost flipped over with our child or anyone else. (pros included) Later, she told us she wouldn't represent horse to anyone else because she was afraid he would "hurt" someone! Excuse me, but she sold it to us!! It wasn't like we showed up there already having the horse......... Looking back, we should have filed a lawsuit and should have had money refunded to us. Our child lost 4 years trying to make this work. Her confidence was gone, etc. Ugh............ why can't people be honest and ethical? I would think they would want to for their reputation.

eqinegirl
Jan. 5, 2010, 01:46 PM
I was the trainer of this child for over a year. I passed them on to this BNT since I was tired of dealing with the overzealous mother. All the Mom wanted was to win win and win and wanted results every lesson, every training ride. They became poor sports and as a justice to myself, I parted ways. The BNT has their own farm, horse was for sale thru this barn. BNT has another trainer who comes to my farm and teaches lessons to said kid and new horse. No the horse will no longer get pro rides on a reguraly basis. The kid and trainer are to do all the training on this horse via lessons. And no I will not train or ride this horse. The realtionship between me and them has dissolved and I thought they were in semi good hands. However, I now see that the mother has lost all sense of reality by purchasing this horse and has no regard for her childs safety at this time. She, the mother, believes 200% in this BNT and their wishes for what this child can and will be able to do with this horse.

This is going to end with you being the "bad guy". You just wait & see. Somehow, this will all end up being your fault. They will move the horse out & then proceed to talk badly about you. I've seen it happen over & over again. I'd gently suggest that they move the horse. Are they only boarding with you because the BNT is more expensive?

ParadoxFarm
Jan. 5, 2010, 02:04 PM
When I used to teach, I had a little 7-year-old girl who was taking lessons with me at my private farm and also taking lessons at a big-name training barn in group lessons. She was doing well with me, and I was able to correct some issues that she had that were being overlooked at the other h/j barn. She was a cute little rider. "Mom" wanted to find a horse for the girl to ride. They had acreage at home and a nice barn. To me, this was a very young girl. I wanted to find a nice, safe, quiet horse for her to get more mileage on. I did. It ended up being a nice quarter horse. Good mannered gelding. In our first few schooling h/j shows, she and her horse cleaned up in her walk/trot classes on the flat and over crossrails. This was a great horse (yes, in my opinion). :) Well, the more they rode at the bigger barn, the more they wanted to be into the show world, which is fine. I didn't do the A circuit with my students. Well, they decided they no longer wanted the QH because they had bought a 100,000 (Mom's words) pony. Needless to say, it was no longer the right situation for me to be teaching her. I had no hard feelings. "Mom" had me sell the horse. It was easy, as I had another family with some young girls that fell in love with the horse. But, long story short, I think some moms are living vicariously through their kids. She wanted the big name, high-dollar horse for her kid. Turns out, she started to dislike the pony, and they bought another high-dollar horse for her in addition. Then another. She had 3 horses, all high-dollar and they were still no happy. The worst part is, this mom was not experienced (I gave her a few lessons, too) and probably didn't' know enough about horses to know if what she was getting was worth the price or not, let alone know if it was safe.

I'm not against those that can afford a high-dollar horse. I wish I could get one! :) But I do think sometimes parents need to be a little more informed and a little less gullible. Nonetheless, I wish them well!

horseladi78
Jan. 5, 2010, 02:41 PM
Thanks all for the replies. Equine- no they can not afford the full training board at the BNT. But heres thinking they might need to figure out now how to pay for it, as I see their "future" might very well entail such an expense. I'm not niave enough though in thinking that this trainer did sell that horse to them as a way to rope into their pockets. Mom doesn't begin to realize she just opened her checkbook to this trainer and the BNT's farm. And no I am not in a position to tell them to leave the current barn, as I am only a trainer not the BO.

gottagrey
Jan. 5, 2010, 05:25 PM
Sometimes its not lack of ethics but lack of communication or just plain and simple getting "caught up in the moment" type of thing. There is also something known as a "budget" which often comes in to play in these situations which has nothing to do w/ ethics. Here is how the budget comes in to play. Parent/individual wants horse they have X amount to spend. Trainers tell them that X amount will get them a nice green prospect or something w/ mileage but might have maintenance issues.. Quite often the green prospect wins out. It could very well be that this horse will in fact be a very nice horse for this kid - w/ proper training. I too learned the lesson of being smitten/caught up in the moment. I was looking for a new horse - a well respected trainer had a homebred for sale - horse was gorgeous, lovely mover, spot on over fences. Problem was he needed to be schooled. Vet didn't like him - we blamed it on the relationship between vet and seller. I was completely seduced by the horse. Had to have him. He was a nice horse but really not the right animal for me. He ended up tearing up his stifle, found a wonderful 4 year old completely green Irish sport horse (on my own in Ireland) who has been an absolute delight. I'm not a 12 year old but I'm probably no braver and no more talented than this 12 year old and my totally green prospect has been a super horse. Sometimes you never know

NancyM
Jan. 6, 2010, 10:38 AM
Sounds like a "sink or swim" situation for the kid. Learn to ride and train the new horse driven by necessity, or give up due to bad experiences with possible injury in the process. Which way it will go is unknown.

Good luck to the kid, both with the new horse and with dealing with mom in the future. Neither sounds easy.

RockinHorse
Jan. 6, 2010, 10:49 AM
And no I am not in a position to tell them to leave the current barn, as I am only a trainer not the BO.

Too bad. This mom sounds like a train looking for a place to wreck :eek: