Pony stallion ideas

[not again]

Looking around for some stallion ideas for crossing breeding I came across this handsome fellow:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jackets+classical+blue
He looks like he would be an interesting cross with a smaller horse mare, but I am woefully ignorant on pony bloodlines. Does anyone know any of the names?
Thanks!

[VirginiaBred]

I do. Reta Rodgers imported a BRP named Jackets Man of the Road. See his pedigree here:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jackets+man+of+the+road


Similar breeding on the dam's side.

He is now standing in Georgia.

[ann kitchel]

Anne, Why not look into the German "Weser Ems" riding ponies. I have bred two smaller Oldenburg mares to "Stibby-Me" and am very pleased with the results. I bred one of the mares back to "Stibby" and the other to "Ridley" for 2010. Won't be ponies but will be super moving smaller sized warmbloods.
Marta Kauffman's Chardonnay is also a super star.......FEI , 14.2 , In California with Jaye Cherry.


www.huntingtonfarm.com

[goodpony]

I took some neat pictures of Chardonnay recently...really enjoyed seeing him go. hope nobody minds me sharing these as I am not professional photog.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=35836&id=1021903725&l=b3db639b50

[Jsalem]

Who has Jackets Man of the Road in Georgia?

[VirginiaBred]

Who has Jackets Man of the Road in Georgia?

It may be South Carolina. Hang on and let me look.....


LOL It's North Carolina! (I'll get my states right in a second)

http://www.foxhavenponies.com/casper.html

[hluing]

Good pony, very nice pics of Chardonnay. I second the GRP sugestion. I have had great luck breeding to many of them (including Chardonnay, who I love) and am now standing my own young stallion, Burberry.

[Windswept Stable]

What exactly is your breeding goal? and how large is your horse mare? discipline?

[twinlights]

Anne,
I definately recomend the GRPs I have one from Benno's Dream that I just love, and one from Crown Heartbreaker, but he was gelded. I bet they have frozen.
I am expecting one from Popeye and one from Ridley this spring.
And going back to Benno this spring for my Crown Heartbreaker mare.
If the mare is a horse and you want a pony, you may want to go smaller.

[pwynnnorman]

I was going to rant about how this fellow is a "roll of the dice," (and I still contend that crossing a mare who doesn't have an Anglo type would be a crapshoot with him), but when I took a closer look at BWLCH VALENTINO (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bwlch+valentino), who was basically a small Thoroughbred and who shows up a LOT in imported lines, that got me to look at his other blood and see how he is basically not a pony at all, but rather a small, crossbred horse--produced for the "show pony" industry.

Not again, given that, I have to ask you whether you've considered the type this stallion was bred to produce. It is not a hunter pony, for although it is a brilliant mover, it has naturally high carriage. It is not a jumper pony either. Attempts have been made to make it a dressage pony and perhaps if we had a history of more dressage pony competitions in this country (I know: give it another decade of so and maybe we will), it might have...but I have to say I doubt that, too. Why? Because if you look at the top British "show" ponies today (which I think IS the modern BRP--and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), unlike--say--in the day of Betty Fox's Grey Cloud, their breeding has become very, very specialized to produce the extravagant "qualify for Olympia" type of movement which does NOT INVOLVE LOWERED HINDQUARTERS.

Yes, yes, I know: I'm getting very technical now, but this is an important consideration if you are breeding for talent and not just type. Moreover, after years of talking, talking, talking--including to some genuinely, open-minded experts--and watching, watching, watching, I grow more sure of it everyday. And, in some ways, it'd be to all of our advantages if we could look frankly at it because all of this effort has convinced me that knowledgeable and objective breeding decisions, we could do just as well HERE with what we already have in place (or by appropriately crossing imported blood like this fellow's).

Look, we can all agree that everywhere we look these days, specialization is the thing. The same is/has happened in Britain. Look at this stallion's third generation, not again: He's NOT a pony by blood at all--he is a Thoroughbred with a touch of Arabian. Now ask yourself: Has that cross been well-known for its hind end? No, it has NOT! Yes, selectively bred, you can get spectacular movement IN THE LEGS and you can certainly get gorgeous, but ability in its hind end is not at all well-proven (in and of itself, that is--without being crossed on something that IS proven when it comes to hind end weight-carrying ability and power).

Why am I arguing this so often now? Because I don't want to see sportponies become like British show ponies: fancy movers than can't jump or do upper level movements because they don't have sitability (the ability to lower and/or push off the hind quarters). This is what hunter ponies have become, which is FINE FINE FINE, but undeniably IS. Even today, with a weak pony jumper market, it is still easy to see that nearly all of the successful jumper ponies are crossbreds--I haven't heard of any jumper ponies from the traditional hunter lines at all. Hunters have become a very specialized type--and if you like that type, FINE. But if you don't, if you have something else in mind, then you have to think it through a bit more, wouldn't you say?

I LOVE the thought that went into producing this guy. Look at the consistency of the phenotypes in his pedigree (thank goodness there are photos). DO LOOK! What do you see? Finer bone, a wonderfully high-set neck, not much heart-girth, a frequently rather high and somewhat flat croup, exquisitely balanced body parts, a drool-over-it long neck...and so on and so on. Great stuff...and not so great stuff...but all in a really visually appealing package.

But is that what you really want: visual appeal? Or do you want functional appeal, too? Because this stallion is a crapshoot when it comes to functional appeal unless (and this IS equally legitimate) you want a pretty looker and mover, and aren't concerned about specific talents beyond that. That's basically what makes pony hunters, too, so there's nothing illegit about wanting that...although we haven't discussed temperament yet, which IS a factor in pony hunters, especially these days.

Just for fun, contrast this fellow's blood with Empire's Power, who is similar (he has Valentino, too), but carries a LOT more Welsh blood. In fact, he is basically Anglo-Arabian on top and Welsh-Arabian on bottom (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/empires+power). Do look at the extended pedigrees and the pictures of his progenitors, though. You'll see a few of the "show pony" type, but you'll see even more traditional welsh (plus a touch of Downland) and JUMPERS with bone, too.

And then contrast both the BRPs with Makuba, who is all Trakhener on top, and--ready for it?--Anglo-Arab on bottom. Yes, his dam is a fascinating example of "inbreed/linebreed to outcross": her Arabian sire is heavily, heavily linebred to Naseem, while her dam, although labelled a Hannoverian, was actually a full Thoroughbred (this is all assuming allbreedpedigree is accurate).

OK, anyway, let me get back to my point about what you are breeding for. If it is sport pony, I ask whether you are SURE that the British "riding pony" is really the type you are after. Seriously--and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect for the BRP at all--I would love to hear your impressions AND, if you want to do more research on this, I would be glad to send you a couple pounds worth of Horse and Hound magazine and point you to a couple of very credible, impartial experts, too. Horse and Hound covers the British show pony industry very nicely--lots of pictures, but it also touches upon some of the controversies in breeding, too. It has toned my eye a LOT about what is basically a "topline" issue (not "issue" in a negative sense--just something that must be considered, OK????) and it may help yours. I also have a couple of issues of the Australian sport pony breeding newsletter, a group of folks who are similarly frank about the phenotypes they produce, how and why.

[pwynnnorman]

A quick add, so those who are primed to get offended will understand where I'm coming from these days...

Betty Fox has the most gorgeous, typey mare--basically a BRP--for sale for an outrageously nice type. I have been debating and debating on buying her for several weeks now, sight unseen as yet (except for a photo). Some folks know that I'm seriously seeking a broodmare--the "perfect, permanent" broodmare--for Kevlar. He's produced two decent-enough (as in marketable) babies through "crapshooting" on Welsh, but he is not bred to produce low-level anythings at all since there's really no way I could legitimately stand behind his temperament for doing that--he wasn't bred to HAVE that kind of temperament, to be honest!

And he wasn't bred to be a hunter sire, period. He, not unlike (but NOT with the generations of conscious intent!) the BRPs noted in my post, is basically an Anglo-Arabian with a touch of pony (but with a whopper lot more racing "Anglo" up close, of course--being 3/4 TB).

So I've been researching bloodlines to find that perfect, permanent broodmare for him--and, sorry Betty!--I've decided it can't be BRP or that type because Kevvie does have tremendous sitability and power, and it would be foolish to water that down for the sake of elegance and movement (which I admit, for the market, one can never have too much of--not that Kev does ;)).

I really like how concentrated the phenotype of the BRP has become due to the standards of the British show pony industry, but it is just not the phenotype I think will produce that pony jumper, eventer or FEI level dressage pony. I'm willing to try it, however, which is why his sister is going to Empire's Power this year, but "try" is not a permanent thing, while buying a broodmare would be.

OK? So that's where I'm coming from with my recent ravings.

[VirginiaBred]

The vast majority of the imported ponies are built way more uphill than pony hunter folks like and what the traditional pony hunter breeder will gravitate towards. Coed Coch Grey Cloud was an exception (to that category of pony and in Wynn's post). When Barbara Camp imported him and stood him (for years before getting out of the pony breeding business which is when he was then sent to Betty Fox) everyone that saw him was surprised he had any BRP in him - much more traditional welsh looking. The BRP gave him the height.

There will always be "type specific" breeders. That is nothing new. And, there will be a select number of good welsh stallions that have the powerful hindquarters, lovely movement, short back and a head/shoulder/neck set that isn't uphill.

"Sport pony" isn't a term most true hunter pony breeders ever use. That being said, in my opinion the uphill build and breed of pony indicated in the stallions in Wynn's post, are good examples of dressage, eventing and cross country sporting events and are probably the best suited for those genres of the sport.

[Hunterlover]

www.huntervalefarm.com
His dam Primrose Lane may have won or come close to winning the pony finals. Her many offspring have won so much...Glannant Yellowbrick Road, Glannant Country Roads, Glannant Fifth Avenue.
His sire came from the DuPont's - the Liseter line.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/glannant+broadway

He's 11.2 hands, sweet and correct. His babies usually have white on their faces and some on the legs. I lead one of his half TB colts with just my arm over his neck. He's still very fertile. 100 percent conception. Email me for lots of photos of offspring. He was bred by the late legendary Welsh breeder Molly Butler

[Summerwood]

I thought *Jackets Man of the Road was sold. She did have him advertised for sale a while ago on the MPB website. I assumed he had been sold (?).

[crownridgefarms]

I am almost certainly standing an imported BRP stallion this breeding season at my farm. He has already sired top hunter and line ponies. They are all gorgeous movers with superb temperaments. PM if you are interested.

crownridgefarms@hotmail.com

[Windswept Stable]

I was going to rant about how this fellow is a "roll of the dice," (and I still contend that crossing a mare who doesn't have an Anglo type would be a crapshoot with him), but when I took a closer look at BWLCH VALENTINO (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bwlch+valentino), who was basically a small Thoroughbred and who shows up a LOT in imported lines, that got me to look at his other blood and see how he is basically not a pony at all, but rather a small, crossbred horse--produced for the "show pony" industry.

Not again, given that, I have to ask you whether you've considered the type this stallion was bred to produce. It is not a hunter pony, for although it is a brilliant mover, it has naturally high carriage. It is not a jumper pony either. Attempts have been made to make it a dressage pony and perhaps if we had a history of more dressage pony competitions in this country (I know: give it another decade of so and maybe we will), it might have...but I have to say I doubt that, too. Why? Because if you look at the top British "show" ponies today (which I think IS the modern BRP--and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), unlike--say--in the day of Betty Fox's Grey Cloud, their breeding has become very, very specialized to produce the extravagant "qualify for Olympia" type of movement which does NOT INVOLVE LOWERED HINDQUARTERS.

Yes, yes, I know: I'm getting very technical now, but this is an important consideration if you are breeding for talent and not just type. Moreover, after years of talking, talking, talking--including to some genuinely, open-minded experts--and watching, watching, watching, I grow more sure of it everyday. And, in some ways, it'd be to all of our advantages if we could look frankly at it because all of this effort has convinced me that knowledgeable and objective breeding decisions, we could do just as well HERE with what we already have in place (or by appropriately crossing imported blood like this fellow's).

Look, we can all agree that everywhere we look these days, specialization is the thing. The same is/has happened in Britain. Look at this stallion's third generation, not again: He's NOT a pony by blood at all--he is a Thoroughbred with a touch of Arabian. Now ask yourself: Has that cross been well-known for its hind end? No, it has NOT! Yes, selectively bred, you can get spectacular movement IN THE LEGS and you can certainly get gorgeous, but ability in its hind end is not at all well-proven (in and of itself, that is--without being crossed on something that IS proven when it comes to hind end weight-carrying ability and power).

Why am I arguing this so often now? Because I don't want to see sportponies become like British show ponies: fancy movers than can't jump or do upper level movements because they don't have sitability (the ability to lower and/or push off the hind quarters). This is what hunter ponies have become, which is FINE FINE FINE, but undeniably IS. Even today, with a weak pony jumper market, it is still easy to see that nearly all of the successful jumper ponies are crossbreds--I haven't heard of any jumper ponies from the traditional hunter lines at all. Hunters have become a very specialized type--and if you like that type, FINE. But if you don't, if you have something else in mind, then you have to think it through a bit more, wouldn't you say?

I LOVE the thought that went into producing this guy. Look at the consistency of the phenotypes in his pedigree (thank goodness there are photos). DO LOOK! What do you see? Finer bone, a wonderfully high-set neck, not much heart-girth, a frequently rather high and somewhat flat croup, exquisitely balanced body parts, a drool-over-it long neck...and so on and so on. Great stuff...and not so great stuff...but all in a really visually appealing package.

But is that what you really want: visual appeal? Or do you want functional appeal, too? Because this stallion is a crapshoot when it comes to functional appeal unless (and this IS equally legitimate) you want a pretty looker and mover, and aren't concerned about specific talents beyond that. That's basically what makes pony hunters, too, so there's nothing illegit about wanting that...although we haven't discussed temperament yet, which IS a factor in pony hunters, especially these days.

Just for fun, contrast this fellow's blood with Empire's Power, who is similar (he has Valentino, too), but carries a LOT more Welsh blood. In fact, he is basically Anglo-Arabian on top and Welsh-Arabian on bottom (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/empires+power). Do look at the extended pedigrees and the pictures of his progenitors, though. You'll see a few of the "show pony" type, but you'll see even more traditional welsh (plus a touch of Downland) and JUMPERS with bone, too.

And then contrast both the BRPs with Makuba, who is all Trakhener on top, and--ready for it?--Anglo-Arab on bottom. Yes, his dam is a fascinating example of "inbreed/linebreed to outcross": her Arabian sire is heavily, heavily linebred to Naseem, while her dam, although labelled a Hannoverian, was actually a full Thoroughbred (this is all assuming allbreedpedigree is accurate).

OK, anyway, let me get back to my point about what you are breeding for. If it is sport pony, I ask whether you are SURE that the British "riding pony" is really the type you are after. Seriously--and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect for the BRP at all--I would love to hear your impressions AND, if you want to do more research on this, I would be glad to send you a couple pounds worth of Horse and Hound magazine and point you to a couple of very credible, impartial experts, too. Horse and Hound covers the British show pony industry very nicely--lots of pictures, but it also touches upon some of the controversies in breeding, too. It has toned my eye a LOT about what is basically a "topline" issue (not "issue" in a negative sense--just something that must be considered, OK????) and it may help yours. I also have a couple of issues of the Australian sport pony breeding newsletter, a group of folks who are similarly frank about the phenotypes they produce, how and why.

Hey Pwynn -
I can not wait for you to meet my Junior Stallion (he is just turning 2 this spring). He is out of the mare debated here before-- Sarnau Valencia... and by Empire's Power. He is stunning and has 3 links to BWlch Valentino! I think you will like him a lot!
I can not wait to see what he throws. Plan to test a couple this spring. He moves absolutely fabulous & he just came into his movement over fall/early winter. He was a fine mover last season--but it exploded. His name is Empire's Victory