Broodmare height and foal sales

[okggo]

Have you guys found a difference in your foal sales based on the broodmares height?

Say you have two foals o/o 2 mares.
Mare 1 is 16.2, approved WB
Mare 2 is 15.1 - strong performance lines, dam, sire, and full siblings all competing at high level of sport. Has potential to throw height, as she is kind of an enigma re the shortness. Maiden - so no idea what she'll throw yet.

Are you finding the foals o/o the tall mares selling better, or are foals o/o smaller (albeit exceptional) mares selling just as well??

I know buyers want over 16h. You could breed to stallions known to throw height, but it's a crapshoot regardless. Just curious what you all are seeing.

[Movin Artfully]

As a buyer, I would not consider a foal out of a 15.1h dam. Regardless of stallion cross.

Also, full sibling/parent competitors less valued that if she was competitive herself.

IMHO, Too risky across the board.

[okggo]

As a buyer, I would not consider a foal out of a 15.1h dam. Regardless of stallion cross.

Also, full sibling/parent competitors less valued that if she was competitive herself.

IMHO, Too risky across the board.

Yeah - I'd be the same way, but was just curious if others would be the same...or have seen it in their sales (affecting their sales).

[TrueColours]

In 2008 I looked at purchasing a 4 year old TB mare that currently stood 18hh and looked like she was going to top out at 18.1hh

I asked several well respected trainers, riders, handlers, etc if they would consider buying a foal out of this mare and right across the board - in 100% of the cases - they said no way. If they learned how tall the dam was, they wouldnt touch the foal with a 10' pole

15.1 would be the same kiss of death in my opinion. 15.2hh you MIGHT be able to get a sale done, 15.3 is getting respectable and do-able depending on the stallion being used and his reputation for throwing some height on his foal

But in probably 90-100% of the cases, foal buyers want to see 16 "something" next to the dam's stats with 17 "something" being acceptable in many cases as well ...

[RiverOaksFarm]

For myself, I wouldn't consider a foal out of a 15.1 mare unless she already had mature tall offspring, otherwise it would be too much of a gamble.

For a broodmare, I wouldn't consider 15.1 either -- again, too much of a gamble, because as you said, buyers seem to want 16+. You can get away with 15.3 being "close enough" sometimes, but smaller than that can become the kiss of death as far as selling.

Having said all that, I had a very nice mare which only reached 15.3, which gave me a lovely stallion prospect colt which I even sold a partnership in (with the idea of him going on to become an approved stallion), but sometimes I get panicky that he's not going to be tall enough... It can be nerve-wracking waiting for the growth fairy!

[kookicat]

I'm not a breeder, so take this with a pinch of salt! ;)

I would have no problem buying a foal from a smaller mare, if the mare was nice/talented.

[Home Again Farm]

I own a 15.3 h mare who has produced a 1997 filly who went 17h, a 1998 colt who went 17.1, a 2007 colt who is 16.3 and growing and a 2008 filly who is 16.1 and growing. If you know your mare produces large and can prove it, her size should mean nothing imho.

[pintopiaffe]

Hm. Send her my way. ;)

The thing is, it's all perception. It's why there's a punnett square, not just A+B = C or A+B = an average of the two. (we wish, don't we?)

My BIG 16h Trak mare threw two BIG foals and two cobby, Sportpony type foals, out of similar stallions. So to look at the mare you would never guess Maggy & Lugh would be SportPony... And my 'small' elegant 16h mare had four full sibs, three are 15.3-16h, and one, last I heard, was 14.2 ish, might've made 15h as they are so late to mature...

I guess I look at pedigree, progeny and related horses.

But then, I care about height the way some care about colour. ;) As long as it's big enough for me to comfortably ride, I worry more about TOO big as my age and arthritis race each other in progression...

[ponygirl]

If you know your mare produces large and can prove it, her size should mean nothing imho.

Bingo :)

[Movin Artfully]

Bingo :)

The 15.1h mare posed in question is a MAIDEN.

[ponygirl]

The 15.1h mare posed in question is a MAIDEN.


I agreed with what Mary Lou said, nothing more.:)

Since you did bring up maiden, is the 15.1 hand mare a first foal? It would be interesting to know if the dam of this mare threw all over the map, smaller, etc, etc.

[Perfect Pony]

I assume the foals are on the ground when you sell them? Couldn't you then see what the foal is like?

Yeah, don't get the crazy hang ups people have about size, it's such a crap shoot no matter how you look at it.

My mare (15.1) is by a dam that was less then 16 hands but threw good sized foals, including one that was a top stallion (Kalypso). All my mare's siblings that I know of were over 16 hands, except her twin sister.

There seems to be a weird anti-short horse clique on these boards. Personally I think the desire for big horses has produced a lot of unsound crap out there and I wish people wouldn't fixate on it so much. All the big horses at my barn are chronically lame, but no one seems to fixate on the negatives of the giants.

[okggo]

There seems to be a weird anti-short horse clique on these boards. Personally I think the desire for big horses has produced a lot of unsound crap out there and I wish people wouldn't fixate on it so much. All the big horses at my barn are chronically lame, but no one seems to fixate on the negatives of the giants.


I don't disagree - I suspected the majority would say the size would be an issue even if the mare is superb, I'm a bit surprised at how many buyers would take a foal from a generic WB approved tall mare vs a proven sport mare b/c she was short.

[kealea31]

Personally, I like small horses, but I am 5'2.

A 15.1 hand mare can potentially cross well with a small pony stallion.

[Home Again Farm]

The 15.1h mare posed in question is a MAIDEN.

My 15.3 h mare was a maiden in 1997 when her first filly was born who went to 17h.

But I do understand that a maiden will not have a history of what she has produced, so you are unable to predict at all.

The bottom line, and something that I tell any buyer who looks at buying a weanling from me is that we never know how tall they will be until they stop growing. Some grow long and very slowly and some stop growing early. It takes time to know the mare, and each breeding is a new experience. :yes:

[pintopiaffe]

Sorry, I just don't buy the maiden stuff.

Some of the largest adults I've known have been first foals.

Now, superfit performing mares--racing, eventing or such... maybe. We had a wry nose out of a very fit young APHA mare, vet felt it was a result of not enough room in there... I don't know enough whether to agree or not.

But my own and those I've midwifed, lots and lots of first foals are big or the biggest... so I just don't buy the maiden thing *necessarily.*

[RyTimMick]

If it is for riding, then no problem.

Is she bigger then Hickstead?

For breeding no. Vorr's cant even be in the motherline of an approved stallion. 15.3 or better.

Tim

[RiverOaksFarm]

I don't disagree - I suspected the majority would say the size would be an issue even if the mare is superb, I'm a bit surprised at how many buyers would take a foal from a generic WB approved tall mare vs a proven sport mare b/c she was short.

I wasn't answering the question as an either/or, just responding to the part asking about using a small mare and offering my experience with selling smaller horses, and why I personally would be wary of taking a risk with a smaller mare because of it. It's a tough market, I simply want to stack the deck in my favor;)

I'm certainly not criticizing the mare-in-question specifically, I don't even know anything about her.

As far as the height of foals, Home Again Farm said it better than I did: "If you know your mare produces large and can prove it, her size should mean nothing imho." But as Movin Artfully also pointed out, the original post is referencing a maiden mare, so it wouldn't be possible to "prove" if she was going to have foals bigger than herself...

And as far as giant horses go -- I do think there is a point where the height (too tall) becomes detrimental to selling just as height (too small) can be detrimental.

This is reminding me of Jan Brink's first US symposium, where there was a very nice FEI schoolmaster type horse, and he commented on how nice it was, but that it would only be for a child or small lady, and how any "small" horses would have to be really really nice to consider them, and then he clarified "small" as 160 cm, and I had to wait to get home to look up how big 160 cm was -- and it was 15.3h.:winkgrin:

[cajunbelle]

I have found a 17.2 TB stallion that is Super Quiet, I am considering him for my 16.1 QH mare.
I like size.... but is 17.2 too big of a jump for a maiden mare?

Here she is.
http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/13233/2080692060105518453S425x425Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/43658/2599137790105518453S425x425Q85.jpg

[TrueColours]

Sorry, I just don't buy the maiden stuff.


Me neither ... :no:

My Faux Finish mare is a first foal out of my Puchi Trap mare (16.1hh) by a 16.1hh stallion. She is just under 17hh now

My Pearlescent mare (16.2hh) by a 16.1hh stallion foaled a monstrously big *first* foal that should hit 16.3-17hh at maturity

Going back through all of my maiden mares, all of their foals will achieve at least their dams height if not more

I say "pshaw!" to this old wives tale of first foals being small to be very very honest ... :lol:

[Bellfleur]

Sandro Hit, Diamond Hit, and Royal Hit's dam Loretta is quite small. 15.2 or so hands. I guess no one would / should buy one of them as a foal??

Would you buy one of Loretta's other offspring?? I did and I would absolutly do it again. She was (even small) named the Mature Horse Champion at last years Oldenburg Show at 18 yrs old. Ever colt she has produced has been a stallion prospect. She is Loretta's first daughter and I believe she is the smallest of the offspring from this famous mare.

Her first daughter is only 15.3 plus a smidgen. Someone bought her colt from 2008 (even last year) for over 25K.

I am actually keeping her son from 2009 for myself. He is one of the best movers I have ever seen and he looks to mature 16.2 or 16.3 He is a stallion prospect too.

Her oldest daughter (by Relevant - who is what? 17 hands) is only 15.2 and 3/4. She is by far the smallest of all her offspring.

[Movin Artfully]

Mare 2 is 15.1 - strong performance lines, dam, sire, and full siblings all competing at high level of sport. Has potential to throw height, as she is kind of an enigma re the shortness. Maiden - so no idea what she'll throw yet.

In regards to my MAIDEN reference- I was simply responding that since this particular mare has no foals- there is nothing with which to compare in response to Mary Lou's comment.

If you know your mare produces large and can prove it, her size should mean nothing imho.

I did not mean to imply that I think the mare will throw small based on the fact that she herself was a first foal; or saying that her first foal will be small since she is a maiden. :lol:

Let's change the equation:

Mare #1: 16.2h
Mare #2: 15.1h

Let's say mares are identical in terms of ideal conformation, outstanding pedigree, excellent performance, successful siblings/parents, premium rated progeny.

Which foal do you buy in-utero? ... Size DOES matter.

And no, I don't think you should forsake any of the above to breed 18h beasts. And yes, I think the number of riders over-horsed by their 17h mounts is ridiculous. But I do think that if breeders are breeding 15.2h mares...they should be nearly PERFECT... based on current market demand for 16+.

[Spike]

I have a mare (hanoverian cross) who's only 15hh. She is by a 16hh hanoverian stallion, and out of a 15.3 arabian mare (not papered thought but pretty obvious that she was an arabian... probably papers were lost somewhere down the road). Anyway, my mare has been registered with CWHBA, and inspected with both CWHBA and OldNA. She got scores to enter their MMB, but lack of pedigree prevented it. Her best scores where for movement and frame and topline (7' and 8's). She went up to level I in competition with a junior rider, and was training and ready for level II before Law School took too much time for me to continue her training and competing. She became a broodmare. Ah and she also did one season in hunters (B circuit) but was so powerfull that she should have gone in jumpers 3ft instead.... lol.. Ok it is not an international level horse, but she did great for the ammy I was and when I've turned her into a broodmare, this is exactly what I was expecting from her: good, amateur's prospect, who people will enjoy own and ride. I've bred her 3 times with the same stallion a 17.1hh holsteiner. First filly was 15.3hh at 3yo, she should have reached her 16hh as of now. She did 3 FEI shows last summer in training level, and went on in the first 3 ribbons each time with scores between 62 and 68.5%. Named Training Level Champion of one show in the amateur/owner division. Second filly might not reach the deadly 16hh, but she is on her way to become even better thant first filly, leggier, better movements. Third filly has been sold to jumper rider, and she clearly demonstrates all the power and willingness her owner will need to perform. She is 1 month younger than my holsteiner filly (sire 16.2, dam 17.1), and not even 2 inches smaller at this point... So we are looking into a 16hh...

Long story, with a maiden, you never know, but if all her family is taller, and the mare's family is not bad at all, and everything is in place (movements, conformation, frame etc), best thing is to see. Take a stallion that is known to give size, and be prepared to either be stuck with the baby if he is too small for the general market, or to sell him a bit cheaper than foals out of taller dam. Mine are not selling the same price than my foals out of my other mares, but it is more because of the lack of pedigree of the dam than really because of the size (IMO) and they've all sold as weanlings or before weaning. One was under contract in utero.

So it all depends on what you are looking to produce with your smaller mare. Usually, you will find that her foals will reach more the experienced-amateur rider market... You know the ones that bought a big 17.2hh 3yo and finally didnt had the fun they've expected because he was SOOOOOO hard to put together, to keep together, and ended up as the sponsored (by them) ride for their trainer??? They are usually much more conservative on their second buy, and look first for a decent sized horse, with emphazis on brain, trainability and FUN rather than only on size (I call it the 17hh dream...) Of course they can get all this with a bigger horse too of course, but you see the point here, bigger is more impressive, etc.

[okggo]

More info on mare #2.
Sire is 17.2h (honest) and generally throws tall. Dam is 16h (by 16.3 stallion o/o 16h mare) with competition career. Full sibling mare (first foal from this dam) is 15.3 1/2 and starting a promising career. And the height on her may have been incorrect as her papers say 162 cm (that is 15.3, no?) taken when she was 3 years old. The more I read about this gal the more I like her....

She has full WB papers from a registry that doesn't accept under 158cm if I'm reading that right (15.2?).

[Signature]

Perhaps it might be better to go the pony broodmare route? However, if there really is size in her background this might not necessarily "work". I guess the only way to see if the height behind her comes out is to breed her and see what happens. I guess that's what you're doing with any maiden mare anyway. LOL :)

But all things being equal, say both mares are bred to the same stallion - I would go with the larger mare's foal, unless the smaller mare is nicer quality or has a freakish quality I might take the chance. We have a smaller broodie, a first foal out of her dam who was 16.1h and sire was 16.2h, this mare is 15.2h. But, she's had 5 foals and all have been at least 16h to 16.3h.

[ponygirl]

If it is for riding, then no problem.

Is she bigger then Hickstead?

For breeding no. Vorr's cant even be in the motherline of an approved stallion. 15.3 or better.

Tim

At the time of measurement, Willemoes dam was a "vorr".

[ponygirl]

More info on mare #2.
Sire is 17.2h (honest) and generally throws tall. Dam is 16h (by 16.3 stallion o/o 16h mare) with competition career. Full sibling mare (first foal from this dam) is 15.3 1/2 and starting a promising career. And the height on her may have been incorrect as her papers say 162 cm (that is 15.3, no?) taken when she was 3 years old. The more I read about this gal the more I like her....

She has full WB papers from a registry that doesn't accept under 158cm if I'm reading that right (15.2?).

She sounds like a lovely mare.

[whbar158]

I think if there were more quality smaller horses out there many people who are over mounted would have an option for something the proper size. Just because it is big and can easily get down the lines and step over the jumps doesn't mean it is that easy to ride. Maybe because I am only 5'2" but I like smaller horses, if they can do the job. I can wrap my leg around them better and actually fit them. Don't get my wrong I spent a lot of time riding and showing a 17hh TB mare and loved it. Not such a fan of 17hh WB's though, she was still light and supple, while many of the WB's that are 16.2+ were not as light and took a lot more to keep together and on task. JMO

[ne1]

the dominance of the mare is such that, exceptions notwithstanding, small ones tend to breed small, even when bred to larger boys.

the difficulty i have found is that large riders - except for a few larger professionals who do great on smaller horses - absolutely tend to stick with larger horses, but most of the smaller riders we have sold to - including professioanls - also prefer larger horses. in producing for the jumper ring, there is much less call for smaller horses; 16h and below.

i have one mare line i got a first grand-daughter from this year which has phenonenal jump but small mares. generationally it can be really difficult to breed that out and make them bigger, depending on how dominant that line of females is. but for what i consider to be extreme talent in this line i'd never breed with it.... i've seen too many jumping 1.50 and above out of top barns that struggle to sell because the market, smaller riders included, tend to prefer bigger horses. but i saw the grandmother of this year's filly jump at a sale in ky as a 2yo and hoped she'd get bigger.

for other purposes i'm sure there may be more demand, but a further consideration for jumpers is that courses are built for an average striding 16.2h horse. smaller ones can be super quick and catty and turn well and get an advantage that way, but are often left unable to leave a stride out where bigger horses may be able to. certainly there are some huge-hearted, crowd-winning smaller jumpers that beat the big guys, but as exceptional as they are, it is too difficult to breed for the exception. that said, i'm going to try and carry on with my one smaller, exceptional mare line :-)

[Dressage Art]

I'm not a breeder, so take this with a pinch of salt! ;)

I would have no problem buying a foal from a smaller mare, if the mare was nice/talented.ditto. I'm actually looking to breed a smaller baby or buy a smaller horse. I'm finding out it's easier to find a stallion who adds height than a stallion who deducts height.