Spinoff: William Micklem and How Much is Too Much?

[Kairoshorses]

I LOVE Jim Wofford, and I'm starting to love William Micklem, too, via his blogs. I see in his words a true love of horses, eventing, and a desire to help both be better.

So in the blog post being discussed on the other thread, this paragraph really stood out for me:

Therefore the round and fall that killed this rider appeared to be totally out of character with the horse’s early cross country career. He was given less freedom to make decisions and consequently jumped with decreasing confidence and involvement as the rider made mistakes, while the rider in consequence started riding more strongly because of the lack of confidence. It was a vicious circle that culminated with the horse falling, when half stopping and half not caring when on a bad stride, and landing on the rider. I have little doubt that this type of training senario has been a contributory factor in other serious accidents. So this is not something to be taken lightly.


I am a little bit worried, because I don't want to do this to my horse. He's got more experience than I do, and when I first started riding him, I basically said "YOU do it!". And he did. We weren't always as balanced as I would have liked, but I was able to work on my form, etc.

This past year, I've been learning to say "here's how we'll do it". And he's been wonderful, and our balance has improved, and we're better prepared for various obstacles. But now, when I don't take charge (honestly, when I've been a bit frightened by a jump, or simply not ready), we've had our first stops, stops at fences he'd normally do in his sleep.

Am I causing this? I think we're better when we're balanced for the type of fence....but I'm worried about messing up my horse, who never stopped before.

How much are WE supposed to control? How much should the horse be allowed to control? How can we learn to direct without getting in the way??

[KSevnter]

This past year, I've been learning to say "here's how we'll do it". And he's been wonderful, and our balance has improved, and we're better prepared for various obstacles. But now, when I don't take charge (honestly, when I've been a bit frightened by a jump, or simply not ready), we've had our first stops, stops at fences he'd normally do in his sleep.

Am I causing this? I think we're better when we're balanced for the type of fence....but I'm worried about messing up my horse, who never stopped before.

How much are WE supposed to control? How much should the horse be allowed to control? How can we learn to direct without getting in the way??

I would not worry too much if you are working under the guidance of an old school trainer who believes mistakes should be made going forward. It more sounds like your stops are occurring when you stop riding at a fence you are afraid (or you start riding backward when you are afraid).

It doesn't sound like you are trying to "control" the horse too much like they are discussing in the other thread. When you are frightened of a jump on xc ride forward to it and don't worry about micromanaging a distance etc. just think about the rhythm and I bet your experienced horse will jump for you.

By no means should a rider be out of control, but the horse should be able to think for himself at the fences. So if you are riding forward to a fence but get an awkward distance he/she should be able to use his "fifth leg" to get out of it and still land feeling happy and confident for the next obstacle.

Sometimes we, as human beings tend to over-think riding horses. When it gets too complicated just go back to sitting up and putting your leg on to support and the rest will get sorted out.

We are not hunters we aren't looking for the perfect distance each time out. If we try to micromanage to that endpoint the horses will stop jumping.

[lstevenson]

IMO it's as simple as stop trying to "look for distances". If you regularly tell the horse when to take off, or are constantly protecting him from having to think about what to do with his feet by placing him perfectly at every jump, his ability to figure out his own footwork diminishes.

Focus on getting the right canter for each situation, maintain the rhythm and balance to each fence, and otherwise leave your horse alone. Then your horse will know that his footwork is ultimately his job. That the rider is in charge of the line, speed, balance, impulsion, ect.....and his job is to take care of the footwork.

When a horse KNOWS that is his job, he is a very safe ride x-c.

[Kanga]

I'm with lstevenson on this one and this is how I have always been taught and I train my students with this type of theory. However, here is a bit of an issue for me and others that I know. You can't get yourself through the ICP by this theory. They are all about "perfect" distances etc, etc!!

So, if this is the way they are going to be "certifying" people how to train eventers then don't we have a bigger problem here??

I am not an ICP Instructor and will not go through this program for many reasons but this is a big one for me.

[lstevenson]

I am not an ICP Instructor and will not go through this program for many reasons but this is a big one for me.



Same here.

And they wonder why there are more and more horses falling on x-c?

[Kanga]

Your Right! This in my mind, is the root of the problem. Now, just think how many people out there they are giving that piece of paper to, telling them this is correct.

Scary thought!

[BaroquePony]

Definately with lstevenson and Kanga on this issue.

Anybody know where this "look for distances" abomination got started?

[lstevenson]

Anybody know where this "look for distances" abomination got started?


I have an opinion on that, but don't think it would be politically correct to say...;)

[Kanga]

I think we might be able to blame the hunter world on this one! Eventing (in the US), in my opinion, has allowed the hunter world to influence too much.

Now, we could get into "the powers that be" on this one but we would be starting another very long thread!!

[lstevenson]

I think we might be able to blame the hunter world on this one! Eventing (in the US), in my opinion, has allowed the hunter world to influence too much.

Now, we could get into "the powers that be" on this one but we would be starting another very long thread!!


Kanga, I think you and I are thinking exactly along the same lines. ;)

[retreadeventer]

Over thirty years ago, Bruce Davidson told Lucinda Prior-Palmer (then, Green now) that he tries to see his distances to cross country fences as far away as possible.

It is laughable that one would not consider seeing distances to ALL fences every time you ride. You invite absolute disaster any other way. Might as well go back to the foxhunting chair seat and throw out modern forward seat riding if you are going to remove the teaching of the skill of seeing distances.
You can't run a horse at fences like a steeplechase horse and hope they get the landing gear up in time.

You have to teach a rider to see a distance and you have to teach a young horse to take off from a variety of distances, and land and be adjusted to distances. I've got a 13-year-old and we are learning to land and gather our stride and until he masters this we have to stay at Training level, because at Prelim I won't have room to make an error on seeing distances like I can at 3'3". It is ALL of my riding over fences this year. I like my neck too much.

You guys are cracking me up. I am imagining a drafty old castle, a dark dining room with musty linen and dimly lit candelabras with craggy old ladies sitting around it, fiercely waving old claw-like hands in the air...."Don't teach a rider to see a distance!" (Just kidding but it's a funny scene!)

[BaroquePony]

see his distances to cross country fences as far away as possible

This I agree with, but it is the FAR AWAY aspect that I consider to be the difference compared to what I think I am seeing in the "see your distances" of today. I was taught to look at the next jump as you were coming down for your landing and then "gauge your distance". Once again, the wording is subtle.

[lstevenson]

You can't run a horse at fences like a steeplechase horse and hope they get the landing gear up in time.


:rolleyes::sigh: What part of the rider focusing on the right canter, with the correct line, speed, impulsion, and balance sounds anything like that?

Really, it doesn't take a genius to see that if riders/trainers insist on finding that perfect spot every time they jump a horse, they are diminishing the horse's natural instincts and don't give him any opportunity to practice thinking on his own about his footwork. And then when they do make a mistake, which they most likely will eventually, that the horse will have a better chance of falling.

It's ALL about the quality/balance of the canter/gallop. Which takes a lot of skill on the riders part to achieve. It's not like just because they don't look for a takeoff spot they are doing nothing like you imply!

[Kanga]

retreadeventer- Not sitting around any dark room here. This is one of the major differences in training eventers over on this side of the pond. There are many great trainers that don't teach distances to be the priority when approaching a fence. Now, again, we could start a big long thread on this issue and really get into it BUT lets just say to keep it simple here there are 2 real different training philosophys on this.

If you read earlier in the thread what lstevenson said, she is correct in her approach to jump training according to many of our great eventers!!

[BaroquePony]

Posted by retreadeventer:

It is laughable that one would not consider seeing distances to ALL fences every time you ride.

We got stuck blindfolded riding grids. Thank you BHS instructors. No seeing distances there.

Our Olympic performance was laughable.

God, I wish I had a castle.

[mcw]

I agree with Kanga and lstevenson. I was always taught that if you have the correct balance and impulsion for the fence you are jumping, then even if you get to a less than perfect distance, the horse has a good chance to be successful. My trainer always said, the correct balance gives your horse more workable options. If you come to a very vertical fence running downhill on the forehand, the most perfect distance in the world won't help you. The balance is what makes it work.

[BaroquePony]

If you come to a very vertical fence running downhill on the forehand, the most perfect distance in the world won't help you.

Oh sh_t, oh dear, that made my skin crawl :yes:

[BaroquePony]

Originally Posted by retreadeventer:

You can't run a horse at fences like a steeplechase horse and hope they get the landing gear up in time.

If I'm not mistaken that was a member of the "younger generation" that did this at Rolex :winkgrin:

[millerra]

Whenever I read these threads, I always question what each person literally means when they say "see a distance".

Does it mean: I know I will/want to take off at spot X and I will adjust my horse to that spot?

Or does it mean: I am riding at XY speed and balance and in this rhythm I know I will arrive a little deep and/or long?

Because I SWEAR I don't (can't) see a distance yet time and again, my coach will yell at me for 'riding a distance'. Err... didn't know I was BUT by riding the rhythm I find I "know" when my horse will take off (and therefore I do make a move when I shouldn't)...

Just want to know how you all define "seeing a distance".

[Kairoshorses]

It's ALL about the quality/balance of the canter/gallop. Which takes a lot of skill on the riders part to achieve. It's not like just because they don't look for a takeoff spot they are doing nothing like you imply!

I think this is what's happening to me. So perhaps I should change my question:

How can a rider learn the quality/balance of a canter/gallop that is appropriate for various fences w/o messing up the horse who's had more experience than the rider?

[Noctis]

I guess I define "seeing a distance" as knowing from a ways out about where I want the horse to take off. I am MUCH more comfortable establishing the canter I want (either collected, average or forward) and rocking the horse back (no on the forehand) and riding my CANTER and letting the jump come up to me. If you ride a balanced canter you'll be able to adjust to get either a close, long or "average" distance as the fence requires. If you say "I have to leave the ground at X spot" and ride to that SPOT as opposed to the jump, THAT is where I feel that "riding to a distance" gets a person into trouble. That, as well as people shutting down and riding backwards if they DON'T see a spot. If I don't see a good spot, but I've gotten my horse to a fence balanced and rhythmically, then HE can use his own judgment to get us over. IMHO of course.

[lstevenson]

I think this is what's happening to me. So perhaps I should change my question:

How can a rider learn the quality/balance of a canter/gallop that is appropriate for various fences w/o messing up the horse who's had more experience than the rider?


By working on acheiving the quality/balance of the canter/gallop with no jumps involved. Can you gallop across a field and then come back into a balanced canter to jump a vertical? You don't need jumps to test youself, just gallop across a field and come back to 350/400 mpm, and work on the quality of the canter, circling and doing flatwork as necessary to get it where you want it.

As far as how to judge whether or not you have the correct balance when you think you have....there is no substitute for a good trainer to tell you whether you have it or not.

But I will tell you that what you feel when the canter is right is that the horse is in self carriage (not leaning on one or both reins), straight, in a good rhythm, that you feel like the horse wants to go forward (there is a fine line between thinking forward in the canter you are in, and being strong, but if you have to push the horse along to keep going you don't have enough desire to go forward), and you feel as if the horse is looking "up" ahead of him and not down at the ground.

When you have found that balance, your job is to maintain it to the jump, and maintain your balance so that you stay out of your horse's way. It does no good to work to find that perfect canter, maintain it throughout the approach, and then jump ahead of your horse in the last stride for example. If you focus on the balance and rhythm of the canter, you have no chance of messing up your horse.

[LLDM]

Personally, I don't give a crap if I can see a distance. What I really want is to GET to one.

I much prefer the term "finding a distance", which implies more the getting to (or letting your pony get to) some non-suicidal takeoff point. :uhoh::) I don't really care who gets credit if somehow between me and pony we get it done without terrifying ourselves and any random observers. :D

SCFarm

[retreadeventer]

Who here always gets a horse in perfect balance in front of every fence or jump?

What kid do you teach ALWAYS has a horse with the "proper speed, directiion and impulsion" in front of every jump?

Come on. You do the best you can to learn, and to teach, the proper speed, direction and impulsion in riding over jumps, and how to find a spot based on those criteria, but geez louise -- I'm hearing that one is exclusive of the other. PULEEZE. As amateurs and starting event riders we are far from perfection and most of the time we don't get the perfect impulsion to every fence and sure don't get the perfect distance as a result. You can't teach someone how to ride over fences by only talking about the quality of the canter or gallop or approach. They have to ride the fence they get and learn to fix (and horses learn to fix) what they got there with the NEXT time. You see distances and develop an eye based on experience. You develop feel based on experience. The two are not mutually exclusive and I don't see how you can teach or develop one without the other.
What the fruitbat.

????

[KSevnter]

Who here always gets a horse in perfect balance in front of every fence or jump?

What kid do you teach ALWAYS has a horse with the "proper speed, directiion and impulsion" in front of every jump?

Come on. You do the best you can to learn, and to teach, the proper speed, direction and impulsion in riding over jumps, and how to find a spot based on those criteria, but geez louise -- I'm hearing that one is exclusive of the other. PULEEZE. As amateurs and starting event riders we are far from perfection and most of the time we don't get the perfect impulsion to every fence and sure don't get the perfect distance as a result. You can't teach someone how to ride over fences by only talking about the quality of the canter or gallop or approach. They have to ride the fence they get and learn to fix (and horses learn to fix) what they got there with the NEXT time. You see distances and develop an eye based on experience. You develop feel based on experience. The two are not mutually exclusive and I don't see how you can teach or develop one without the other.
What the fruitbat.

????


No, not mutually exclusive at all. More like one can't have a "distance" without establishing proper rhythm and impulsion first. I think what people are trying to say is that a student needs to be taught what a good canter/gallop is on its own with no discussion of distance. I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone who would argue that a good distance can ever be achieved without having a good grasp on rhythm.

My point was the old school trainers never discussed distance going cross country, or at least the ones I have ridden with never did. I was taught about different canters, like a coffin canter and a gallop needed for a max fly fence. I can't recall any of them (all members of the USET at one time or another) telling me I needed to find a good distance even at the two star level.

I was always told if I had a good rhythm and made my mistakes going forward, ie not picking at my horses face and taking away his impulsion than everything would work out and this theory never let me down. I only ever got us in to trouble when I started looking for something and inevitably riding backward to the fence.

[asterix]

retread, I think this is an important point.

I don't see how you could ride over fences for years, as most of us have (let alone an international caliber rider), and not end up being able to "see" where the horse is going to take off at some point on your approach. "Seeing" and "dictating" are two different things, for starters.

I think this is a pretty subtle mix of things and most of us probably do it intuitively to the extent we get it right. For the OP, the advice to practice without fences and then w/ a good trainer is the way to go.

I have had entire xc rounds where the rhythm and balance worked so well the fences seemed to jump themselves -- on very rare occasions. Am I seeing spots? Sure. Am I dictating where the horse takes off? Not consciously -- it seemed to be just "happening." I am not sure exactly how to recreate these truly amazing moments but I am very sure it had to do with what was happening in between and not at the fences.

I've jumped many more fences where I was very conscious of seeing a distance, my fair share of trying to micromanage a distance, and my fair share of having my horse overrule me.

I suspect that's pretty normal for us mortals.

I have also had a nearly very bad crash, over a simple vertical in the ring, on a green horse, when I made a bid for a long spot, and he just lacked the experience and initiative to make a quick decision about what to do (he said "ok, no, wait, that's too far, let me put one more stride...ack, here comes the fence....." next thing I knew we were having a rotational fall :eek:). I have also jumped around novice and schooled training on this same horse and had it be absolutely flowing and "jump itself."

What did this teach me?

There are two of us in this endeavor, and EACH one is going to make mistakes to varying degrees. The trick is to advance the training, the skills, the initiative, AND the partnership in tandem with the difficulty of the questions being asked, so that when ONE partner makes a mistake, the OTHER is likely to be able to pick up the slack before something awful happens.

Some horses are MUCH better at this than others, ditto riders. We all can improve. A slavish devotion either to "getting the distance right" or to "never riding to a distance" probably will not work.

Lucinda Green (who is no fan of being a slave to the perfect spot, obviously) tells a story about someone who had a terrible crash at a related distance -- she knew it was "supposed" to be 3 strides, or whatever, and got in wrong and pushed to get the "right" striding -- horse couldn't compensate. Had she let the horse put in 4, or 2, or whatever it needed to get out....

To me the real lesson of this story is not that it is never appropriate to make an adjustment to meet a distance you see. It is that by the time you are riding Advanced, your instincts on WHETHER WHEN AND HOW to make that adjustment had better be damn good.

[lstevenson]

You can't teach someone how to ride over fences by only talking about the quality of the canter or gallop or approach.



Oh really?? I hope you are not an instructor.

If you have the right balance and rhythm in the canter all of the way to the jump, the jump will feel perfect even if the actual take off spot is a little long or short.

I'm not saying a perfect takeoff spot isn't ideal, but it's the riders who "look" for that spot that tend to "guess" when the horse is going to take off and invariably jump ahead of their horse. And if you focus on the take off spot you will most likely change the rhythm and therefore the balance right in front of the jump and have a much poorer quality jump.

Jimmy Wofford has an excercise that he likes to do where he tells people to canter a single jump and TRY to have a "bad" jump. What people usually do is just canter down to it, not trying to "see" anything. And the joke is, it's usually their best jump of the day.

Rhythm = balance, and balance means the best jump the horse is capable of. If you change the rhythm looking for a spot, you may (ocassionally) find that perfect spot, but you will lose some of the quality of the jump in the process.

If an amataur rider focuses on rhythm and balance during their jumping round, they are usually going to have about 9 out of 10 smooth jumps. If an amataur rider focuses on finding "good spots" they are usually going to have considerably less smooth jumps.

[Kanga]

Again lstevenson is dead on here and I would agree with EVERYTHING she is saying.....

Let me tell you a little story retread...

When I was competing in England, I ran a horse trial at Chatsworth. My trainer was not there with me so I walked my course with a friend of mine that was a 4* rider. We came to two very large tables placed at a 90 degree angle to each other...she walked the distance off and said YOU MUST get a 4 stride in here or you will have major problems. I walked the line I was going to take to it and said to her no way, I will get an easy 3 here. She threw a fit, told me I was crazy and would have problems if I did so.

Off I went cross-country in a very good forward/balanced gallop rhythm. I came to this cross-country question and kept my forward, balanced rhythm, NOT THINKING OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GET A 4 OR I WILL DIE!!....I just rode the line, had the correct balance and put in a perfect 3 with no questions asked. Now, I think this is part of all of our points. If the riders head is thinking I HAVE TO HAVE A 4, I HAVE TO HAVE A 4, etc, etc, you are going to be riding backwards and have major problems. The distance to the jump is not the first thing we are thinking about in those situations and when that is taught first to people without them really understanding what is more important, then you don't develop good riders.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

This I agree with, but it is the FAR AWAY aspect that I consider to be the difference compared to what I think I am seeing in the "see your distances" of today. I was taught to look at the next jump as you were coming down for your landing and then "gauge your distance". Once again, the wording is subtle.


I agree with this. Even Jimmy has me looking for my distance.....the key is NOT changing my ride while frantically looking for one;)...or really, waiting when I first see my distance because I will always see long first when I'm rusty.


You do have to see a distance to bigger fences...and you should be looking for a distance and helping your horse. You do have to ride your horse and not be a passanger but also NOT over ride and micro manage.

It is a balance. Finding your rhythm and having a balance is a necessity for seeing a distance. If you don't have that basic...you shouldn't be looking for a distance (and likely will not see it anyway!). Finding a rhythm and riding a balance is extremely important...and it is that feel that lets you start to see your distances. And if you ruin that rhythm and balance by over thinking things and putting looking for a spot/distance first...well that is when you run into trouble.

But also you have to teach your horse to look for his distance and not destroy that....riding and eventing is a PARTNERSHIP. After all...you have walked to course and KNOW what is coming, your horse does not. You help your horse and your horse helps you!

[Gry2Yng]

Let me tell you a little story retread...

When I was competing in England, I ran a horse trial at Chatsworth. My trainer was not there with me so I walked my course with a friend of mine that was a 4* rider. We came to two very large tables placed at a 90 degree angle to each other...she walked the distance off and said YOU MUST get a 4 stride in here or you will have major problems. I walked the line I was going to take to it and said to her no way, I will get an easy 3 here. She threw a fit, told me I was crazy and would have problems if I did so.

Off I went cross-country in a very good forward/balanced gallop rhythm. I came to this cross-country question and kept my forward, balanced rhythm, NOT THINKING OH MY GOD I HAVE TO GET A 4 OR I WILL DIE!!....I just rode the line, had the correct balance and put in a perfect 3 with no questions asked.


You story has nothing to do with seeing/finding a distance, as far as I am concerned. ;) It has to do with length of stride and track. You saw a line that you preferred or your horse had a much different stride than your mate's.

Again, this is just *my* perspective on riding, but you don't find/see a distance inside a combination. You have the correct canter for the exercise, you meet the first jump the way you intended, you follow the path you walked, the second jump comes up in stride. Now, if you screw up any of those things, you will "see" that you are either going to be long or deep to the jump. Depending on how long or deep, you move up or add. Lots of times on course a combo can be ridden in a 3 or 4. Designers are generally setting it up that way. At home you practice both tracks/stride lengths. At a competition you choose the one that makes the most sense based on a variety of factors.

I am not even going to comment on "seeing" a stride as it relates to the first fence of the combo or a single fence. This is an interesting discussion however.

[Kanga]

gry2yng-

"You have the correct canter for the exercise, you meet the first jump the way you intended, you follow the path you walked, the second jump comes up in stride. Now, if you screw up any of those things, you will "see" that you are either going to be long or deep to the jump. Depending on how long or deep, you move up or add. Lots of times on course a combo can be ridden in a 3 or 4"

Perhaps I did not give the best of examples but what you have said here is what a bit of the point is. If the balance, line, rhythm and impulsion are there, this will happen easily even if the distance is long or short. If you come into something being told you must pick a certain distance to the first jump in order to get the certain distance to the next jump in general riders will ride a bit backwards therefore thinking more about the distance than the balance and this is when things can go wrong. You won't always have the perfect distance to something but you can have good balance to something, that way, long, short or dead on will all work out for you.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

gry2yng-

"You have the correct canter for the exercise, you meet the first jump the way you intended, you follow the path you walked, the second jump comes up in stride. Now, if you screw up any of those things, you will "see" that you are either going to be long or deep to the jump. Depending on how long or deep, you move up or add. Lots of times on course a combo can be ridden in a 3 or 4"

Perhaps I did not give the best of examples but what you have said here is what a bit of the point is. If the balance, line, rhythm and impulsion are there, this will happen easily even if the distance is long or short. If you come into something being told you must pick a certain distance to the first jump in order to get the certain distance to the next jump in general riders will ride a bit backwards therefore thinking more about the distance than the balance and this is when things can go wrong. You won't always have the perfect distance to something but you can have good balance to something, that way, long, short or dead on will all work out for you.


I also agree with this. I think the difference is seeing your distance and PICKING a spot. You must see your distance as you advance the levels and your riding...this is how you know you and your horse are going to reach the fence....and it will RARELY be on a perfect distance. But if you can see that you are going to be deep or long...or on a half stride...you will know what to do in your riding to support and help your horse (which sometimes will be to do nothing...which is very hard for many riders). If you go looking to "pick" a spot...you will likely over ride and screw things up more.

[Gry2Yng]

If the balance, line, rhythm and impulsion are there, this will happen easily even if the distance is long or short. If you come into something being told you must pick a certain distance to the first jump in order to get the certain distance to the next jump in general riders will ride a bit backwards therefore thinking more about the distance than the balance and this is when things can go wrong. You won't always have the perfect distance to something but you can have good balance to something, that way, long, short or dead on will all work out for you.

I agree with this statement. Not to imply that my agreement means a damn thing, only to say, "Yes, in the messy world of trying to express ourselves on a BB, I agree with this."