Does anyone NOT do rhino on their pregnant mares?

[DLee]

Just wondering.

[NancyM]

I will step up and admit that I no longer to rhino shots on pregnant mares. I did them for years, religiously. But lost foals to abortion. Not to rhino (on the ones we tested) but they are just as dead no matter the source of the loss.

My figuring... most of the mares I breed have been raced or to the track for training. At the track, they have seen every form of every virus that circulates. They have seen rhino viruses. They no longer show any symptoms of the disease when the virus comes into contact with them. They have as much immunity to this virus as horses can have. Continually bombarding them with a vaccine to a disease that they are already immune to does nothing to give them any better immunity. The vaccine only gives three months worth of immunity, the virus itself gives better immunity, longer lasting. I believe that mounting the immune response through the vaccinations does put stress on the mare's system, stress which can lead to abortion. I quit giving the vaccines after I noticed that loss of foals often happened a few days after giving the vaccination... to the point that I became uncomfortable giving the vaccine- a sense of dread. So I decided that in my situation, I would rather not vaccinate and take the chance that a mare may not have enough natural immunity.

My mares are also a closed herd. They do not come into contact with other horses much. I have lost less foals to abortion than I did when I vaccinated. I understand that this is not a scientific study, but it is what has happened. If I had different mares, who had not attained as much natural protection as race mares get, vaccination might be a better idea. Either way, I think there is a risk. Choose your risk depending on the horses you have, the situation that they live in, and your own personal attitudes on what you think will give you the best chance of producing a live foal. There is no "right" and "wrong". You will lose foals either way, there are so many different possibilities of why a foal may have been aborted... cervical failure, twisted cord, developmental problems etc. If you lose a foal, it is most likely one of these possibilities. Maternal stress is another source of abortion that I avoid by not giving the vaccines, though by doing so I may lose a foal to the virus, IF I have a mare who does not have good natural immunity. I understand that, and choose that chance.

[inca]

I think most of the contracts of stallions I have used REQUIRE you to give the rhino shots if you want your LFG to be valid. And I certainly will never intentionally do anything that will void my LFG.

I also have horses I ride, show and clinic with. They are constantly going to my trainer's barn for our lessons, to shows and to clinics. I feel I need my pregnant mare(s) to be vaccinated to reduce the likelihood of them picking up something from the others.

[Ainsley]

I am interested to know what other's replies are to this question too.

NancyM, I will also freely admit that I am with you on this one. We do not vaccinate our mares for Rhino. For years we did and for the last 6 or 7 years we have just left them alone. I have not lost any foals due to Rhino since stopping the vaccine, and in discussion with my vets, they are in agreement that it is not needed at the moment. I am not against the vaccine in any way, I just haven't found any need to do it at the moment.

We do have mares come on the property occasionally, but they are rarely if ever in contact with any of my own mares. If I were to breed to an outside stallion who required the vaccine in order to honor any LFG, I would give the shot without a second thought. However, it has been my experience that giving the vaccine/not giving the vaccine has not influenced my live, healthy foal percentages. Should something change in the future, I will begin vaccinating again. For now, I will just "let sleeping dogs lie".

Jennifer

[Home Again Farm]

I vaccinate at 5,7,9 months with Intervet Prodigy vaccine. Have done so for years and will continue to do so, having seen rhino abortion storms. IMO the anecdotal evidence that gets quoted against the vaccine is just that - anecdotal.

[DLee]

Thanks for your input. This mare had an uncomplicated pregnancy and successful foaling in 2008 without any rhino boosters, and I have decided to do the same this year. It's good to know some others do as well, I agree, it's just weighing which risk you want to take.

[Go Fish]

No. It's a pretty cheap shot that you can get at your local feed store and administer yourself. It's been a couple of years since I bred my mares but I seem to recall that a single dose was around $10.

I suppose if you are ABSOLUTELY certain that you have a closed herd, you might get away with it. But considering all the expense you have involved before the foal hits the ground, it's pretty cheap insurance.

[YankeeLawyer]

Thanks for your input. This mare had an uncomplicated pregnancy and successful foaling in 2008 without any rhino boosters, and I have decided to do the same this year. It's good to know some others do as well, I agree, it's just weighing which risk you want to take.

What is the risk of giving the shot?

FWIW, we give all the usual vaccines to our pregnant mares. I tend to be pro-vaccine in general, though. The reason we do not have to worry so much about disease is precisely because people *do* vaccinate.

I also do not see how anyone truly has a closed herd. I am not very familiar about the transmission of rhino but I do know that certain equine illnesses can be carried from farm to farm by people and dogs. So unless you never go to any other farm and have no vets or farriers, for example, how exactly is the herd completely protected from exposure?

[Hillside H Ranch]

What is the risk of giving the shot?

FWIW, we give all the usual vaccines to our pregnant mares. I tend to be pro-vaccine in general, though. The reason we do not have to worry so much about disease is precisely because people *do* vaccinate.

I also do not see how anyone truly has a closed herd. I am not very familiar about the transmission of rhino but I do know that certain equine illnesses can be carried from farm to farm by people and dogs. So unless you never go to any other farm and have no vets or farriers, for example, how exactly is the herd completely protected from exposure?

I'm with you on this; very, very few people have a truly closed herd. No farriers, no vets, no people visiting your horses after coming from another barn? That's pretty difficult.

Also, in regards to something that NancyM said, natural infection with rhino does not confer long-term immunity. A horse can become reinfected over and over, so the idea of natural exposure/infection providing any sort of long-term protection just isn't true.

I have seen abortion storms on breeding farms due to rhino, and I've seen the single horse owner, who desperately wanted a foal, lose that foal to rhino. I think after all the money/time/emotion invested in getting a pregnancy, rhino vaccines are cheap insurance. But to each their own.

[columbus]

I am not aggainst vaccinating though I only give vaccinations to lethal diseases...excepting my pregnant mares Rhino vaccinations. Rabies, encephalitis, tetanus are my routine, but occasionally I am in a barn that requires more. The reason I don't do respiratory viruses at home is that I doub't the vaccine companies do a good job of giving the current strain of virus that is affecting horses each year...to the best of their ability...as is done with human flu virus vaccinations. If I am wrong I would love to know. Thanks PatO

[VarsityHero4]

The reason I don't do respiratory viruses at home is that I doub't the vaccine companies do a good job of giving the current strain of virus that is affecting horses each year...to the best of their ability...as is done with human flu virus vaccinations. If I am wrong I would love to know. Thanks PatO

Just a note about that. Idk if I just got lucky or something but I never used to vaccinate for Strangles because my horses don't leave the farm very often and I do my own vaccines and didn't feel like calling my vet out just for that (his visit fee is ridiculous) but my show horse contracted it 2 yrs ago. At the time I had 2 weanlings, a mare, and a 32 yr old gelding. As soon as I found out the horse had contracted Strangles I had the rest of them vaccinated. I've heard that no matter how much separation and care you use in not spreading Strangles that it's nearly impossible to keep other horses on the farm from getting it. None of mine even had the slightest runny nose. However, now I vaccinate everyone for Strangles because those were some scary symptoms...

Sorry for the high jack, and yes, I do the regular broodmare rhino routine.

[bloomingtonfarm]

I vaccinate at 5,7,9 months with Intervet Prodigy vaccine. Have done so for years and will continue to do so, having seen rhino abortion storms. IMO the anecdotal evidence that gets quoted against the vaccine is just that - anecdotal.

Yes maybe… but when you are ‘part’ of the anecdote, you see it differently.

I don’t vaccinate for rhino any more… and each year I am more and more convinced not to do so.

I lost my first two foals from rhino. And both mares had been religiously vaccinated at 5, 7 and 9 months by a vet, and both lost their foals at 300 days flat...

It was devastating. I sent the second foal at Guelph and the result came back: ... rhino! How come?!

My vet, who gave the shot to both mares, said he had seen quite a few mares losing their foals from rhino that same year and all of them had been vaccinated. He was questioning the necessity of using it but officially he would never say not to use it.

My second vet told me the same; she would not vaccinate her own mare for rhino but would never promote this as the ‘official’ protocol was to give at 5, 7 and 9 months.

Another vet who had a huge breeding farm with client’s mares coming in and out all the time, said she never gave rhino shots to her mares… but flu and strangles vaccines as this was the ‘doors’ for other virus like rhino. And she said she never had any rhino outbreak.

I have what you could call a close herd, but I agree it doesn't really exist unless you required your farrier to disinfect himself and his tools, as well as your vet.

However FWIW I make sure I am the first client in the morning for my farrier so at least there would be less 'fresh' bacteria with him. My mares are in another stable far and apart from the other horses and I always do them first in the morning and last at night. I tried my best to make sure they are not in contact with any source of bacteria or virus but of course, I can’t prevent everything.

Anyway I feel more secure without it and it has nothing to do with the cost, for God Sake!!! I paid the big price when I lost my two foals from this terrible virus and I would not take any chance if I would believe this was better. I give all the others regular vaccines except this one and for the past 5 years, everything went perfectly well.

[bloomingtonfarm]

Also, in regards to something that NancyM said, natural infection with rhino does not confer long-term immunity. A horse can become reinfected over and over, so the idea of natural exposure/infection providing any sort of long-term protection just isn't true.

According to my vets, if a mare had it, it does insure her a one year immunity.

[pintopiaffe]

I do not any more.

I know someone (personally, not an 'internet friend' or friend-of-a-friend') who had an abortion storm after Pneumabort Vax.

I also do minimal vax. Not NONE, but not all the ones that are 'standard annual.'

I've done tons and tons and TONS of research. I have a virtually closed farm from Nov-at least May. If I do take the stallion to lessons in May, he is not nose-to-nose with pg mares when he gets back. EVEN though he does not have physical contact with ANY horse while at lessons, he *sometimes* stays in a stall (not usually if I have a pg mare).

No one else comes/goes without quarantine. Few come/go anyway.

I am not completely against it. If I were still sending mares to the boarding barn to be AI'd I'd be all over it. I'm not. I use timing protocol instead and keep them home now.

I research, and weigh my risk vs. the risk I know is there, despite the fact that Ft. Dodge will deny it.

I lost a horse due to a Ft. Dodge product, as well. They were so EMINENTLY less than helpful as far as finding out WHY I lost him. SO I'm leery to begin with. My own *personal* experiences, and the situation at my VERY ISOLATED farm lead me to my conclusions. I'd *never* advise someone else on it. You have to know your situation, and weigh the risks.

[pintopiaffe]

I just read some other answers...

I do my own feet, and 99% of my own vet. It's a trailer in, generally, unless it's a come-out-to-put-one-down. :(

I do not go to other barns on winter. If for an odd clinic or something I *do*, I wear totally different clothing & boots, and wash them in hot water with the stuff the Ambulance uses for decon.

I've also experienced strangles 2x, once in a 110 horse herd, once in a 12 horse herd. With proper management, no one died, and not even every one got it.

I recently caved to HepB vax for myself. I declined H1N1 (hm, already HAD it in Sept., come to find out!) I did the research and weighed the risk vs. risk. In this case, even though I have fibro, the risk of contact with a hepB patient FAR outweighed the side effects I might (and have) experienced from a vax.

You do your research, and weigh your risks.

[Hillside H Ranch]

According to my vets, if a mare had it, it does insure her a one year immunity.

I would love to see that research, as I find that very interesting. I know that contracting strangles confers longer-term immunity, but I would love to see the challenge studies backing that up with rhino.

Someone mentioned Fort Dodge; I don't use the Fort Dodge rhino as I had too many mares having vaccine reactions with that product. I do use, and love, the Intervet product.

As far as measuring the risks, I completely agree. Working in an equine practice that does quite a bit of repro I have had plenty of opportunities, on a daily basis, to do just that. I've just seen too many "closed herds" have abortions due to rhino after the owners have chosen not to vaccinate and it just isn't a risk I'm willing to take. As I said before, to each their own!

[Equilibrium]

No. It's a pretty cheap shot that you can get at your local feed store and administer yourself. It's been a couple of years since I bred my mares but I seem to recall that a single dose was around $10.

I suppose if you are ABSOLUTELY certain that you have a closed herd, you might get away with it. But considering all the expense you have involved before the foal hits the ground, it's pretty cheap insurance.

Our rhino vaccine costs 40euros and we can only get the Ft. Dodge one here.

I used to vaccinate my mares when I lived on a smaller farm and my mares might have come into contact with youngsters who shipped in and out. And actually, it started to become a pain in the butt to get the vaccine at all. It seemed every time I needed it, my vets were out. And no, can't just order it online over here. So it wasn't worth the hassel anymore.

If I had to give them for my contract, no problem.

Terri

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I am using Intervet's Prodigy. The BO where I used to board has another anicdotal about Pneumbort and doesn't vaccinate based on her experience. I board at a private barn with two others and this time of year we aren't showing/clinic-ing, but next weekend a different mare is going to the clinic for a lameness exam, the farrier was just here, last month the neighbor (further away) had a horse get loose and he came over and rubbed noses, ran the fenceline (and my mare was the one chasing him) etc. This has never happened before with the neighbor's horse (in years and years). My reason for vaccinating is, strange stuff happens--even in a closed herd.

And I'm pretty sure the neighbor's horse isn't up to date on ANYTHING.

[YankeeLawyer]

last month the neighbor (further away) had a horse get loose and he came over and rubbed noses, ran the fenceline (and my mare was the one chasing him) etc. This has never happened before with the neighbor's horse (in years and years).

Coincidentally, this happened to us last month, also, the week we weaned the babies. We almost had a major crisis as their babysitter gelding tried to protect his little charges by fighting off the intruders through the fenceline.

[Daydream Believer]

Up until 2008, I vaccinated for Rhino religiously. That year with the neurological Rhino outbreak, I read up on it and how frequent Rhino vaccination actually put horses more at risk for the neurological form of Rhino, and decided to stop using the Rhino vaccines....again a risk decision. I am not under any contractual agreements for stallions and it's my own mares and stallions involved. My boarders that were broodmares were either given the vaccines or not at the choice of their owners.

I do not have a truly closed herd here but my broodies are isolated from incoming and outgoing horses, I do my own farrier work, and my own shots and rarely (thank heavens) does a vet even have to deal with my preggers girls until after foaling. So far, I've never lost a foal due to abortion for any reason. (knocking on wood)

I do find it interesting to read here how many folks lost foals to Rhino even when they vaccinated. It does make you wonder.

[YankeeLawyer]

I do find it interesting to read here how many folks lost foals to Rhino even when they vaccinated. It does make you wonder.

I *think* only one farm (Bloomington) that vaccinated lost foals to rhino (and of those two losses, only one was confirmed rhino). There were also other losses mentioned but these were either confirmed to be attributable to other causes or the cause was not determined.

[Windswept Stable]

Last year, I had a mare abort 7 days after her vaccine.
I still give it to the others, but I will not give it to the mare that aborted--should I be fortunate enough to get her back in foal.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Coincidentally, this happened to us last month, also, the week we weaned the babies. We almost had a major crisis as their babysitter gelding tried to protect his little charges by fighting off the intruders through the fenceline.

Was he ok? My mare went lame for a few days (she isn't 100% sound) but now is none-the-worse for wear. I guess she was really trying to kick his #ss. Funny, she's not the boss, but #2.

[DLee]

rodawn,
Not vaccinating my mare for rhino while she is in foal has NOTHING to do with the cost.
I also vaccinate all my horses yearly, so it's not like nobody here has ever been vaccinated.

[feather river]

lots of urban legend info going around in these posts. Nowadays, this business of vaccinate or not is almost like religion with some people. No hard evidence to support their position, but lots of stories about who did or didn't and what happened, etc. support their otherwise built-on-sand opinion.

My advice is to vaccinate and hope you have a very healthy foal/young horse. Enough happens sooner or later if you are in the breeding business. Go talk to a vet about the young horse that got a cut and died from tetanus because the owner of the mare didn't believe in vaccinating the mare. Those are real stories.

[Equilibrium]

lots of urban legend info going around in these posts. Nowadays, this business of vaccinate or not is almost like religion with some people. No hard evidence to support their position, but lots of stories about who did or didn't and what happened, etc. support their otherwise built-on-sand opinion.

My advice is to vaccinate and hope you have a very healthy foal/young horse. Enough happens sooner or later if you are in the breeding business. Go talk to a vet about the young horse that got a cut and died from tetanus because the owner of the mare didn't believe in vaccinating the mare. Those are real stories.

I don't think anyone is on about the regular vaccines that save lives such as tetnus. And you'd be interested to know that I was one of the few people that vaccinated my herd in Ireland. Even at the larger TB farms it wasn't standard fair as they had separate facilities for those vaccinated and those not vaccinated. Sport horse breeding people, very very rarely.

When I went to start my mare's vacs this year the clinic said they wouldn't have any for 3 weeks to a month. So I opted this year to not do it as I wouldn't get 3 into her before the foal was born.

Terri

[Grataan]

I vaccinate at 5,7,9 months with Intervet Prodigy vaccine. Have done so for years and will continue to do so, having seen rhino abortion storms. IMO the anecdotal evidence that gets quoted against the vaccine is just that - anecdotal.
I'm with this one

As a stallion owner, I will not breed to a mare whose owner does not vaccinate for Rhino if I find out before the scheduled breeding date. If the mare was not vaccinated and there is a fetus lost, the LFG is null and void and I will no-further-service them as a breeding client, until they can prove to me that they are vaccinating for rhino. It is nothing personal, I have no ill will towards anyone who does not vaccinate, I simply choose not to do business with someone who chooses not to vaccinate. Will I still be their friend and cheer them on at shows? HECK YEAH. Will I sell them young stock? Yes. Will I commiserate with them when they have a loss? Of course, my shoulder and kleenex are always available.

The thing about abortion storms is that once you start getting abortions it is too late to vaccinate the rest-you are powerless to stop the abortions. They just come and come and come and keep on coming.

The vaccine does not prevent all abortions-it is only affective for rhino caused abortions. There are multiple reasons mares abort.

[YankeeLawyer]

Was he ok? My mare went lame for a few days (she isn't 100% sound) but now is none-the-worse for wear. I guess she was really trying to kick his #ss. Funny, she's not the boss, but #2.

Mine were okay because fortunately it happened while I was home and I was able to intervene from the neighbor's side quickly. :) My neighbors are really nice and I think they were mortified; it was an accident.