Eventing Breeding?

[STF]

With all the talk of eventing stallions a conversation came up last night about "what common factors in bloodlines" are part of it.
Is there or has there been a stallion who made several upper level eventers? If so, who, what stallion?
What were the traits and crossed with? Common factors?

[Tasker]

Well, I will preface this with the disclaimer of having grown up in a dressage oriented barn & breeding program. That being said, Abundance (Absatz/Dominus) produced multiple Advanced horses, along with a few Grand Prix dressage horses, show jumpers, hunters, driving horses and then lots of all arounders for Amateur Owners. As a rule, all of the Abundance's love to event - at any level. Always A Lady is still going Intermediate and she was born in the early 90's and to the best of my knowledge did Rolex multiple times with different riders. Aachen (by Abundance) won the Kentucky 3 Day before it was 'Rolex'...but that is going back quite a while into the dark ages of record keeping.

We had a Volturno (Vollkorn/Manolete xx) daughter when I was growing up - she was an '83 or '84 model out of a very talented Intermediate level TB mare and one of the early domestically bred frozen semen babies. Volante packed me & my sister around multiple Prelims and had plenty of talent to go higher - I got distracted by inheriting a GP dressage horse, so she retired to the breeding shed. Her Adamant daughter is packing me around at Novice/Training and schooling through some Intermediate stuff with plenty of scope & talent...I have no desire to go that fast or jump that height in competition (yet) but it is a blast and a half! :D

Adamant (Abundance/In Spite Of xx) produced several 3 day horses during his career - Ariadne won the North Georgia 3 Day with a 14 or 15 year old back in the late 80's or 90's...he tended to produce nice all rounders like his sire. Sally Cousins has a homebred daughter of his that she's been bringing along also.

Again and Again (Abundance/Our Tops xx) also had a few Intermediate horses with AA riders during his career.

The common denominator with all of these horses has been the offspring are out of TB mares...mostly distance bred, flat muscled, slow twitch types that are generally (soundness wise) TOUGH and durable.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Haven't there been a million threads on this?
Heraldik, Stan the Man, Cavalier Royale, Catherston Dazzler, Master Imp, Welton Crackerjack, Welton Apollo all have had multiple horses that performed at the CCI***/CCI**** level.

[STF]

Haven't there been a million threads on this?
Heraldik, Stan the Man, Cavalier Royale, Catherston Dazzler, Master Imp, Welton Crackerjack, Welton Apollo all have had multiple horses that performed at the CCI***/CCI**** level.

I dont know if a million, dont follow them till now due to all the "drama."

So what are the common factors in all those breedings. How many of their offspring went to Interm. and above?

[STF]

One thing I like about the Se. website is you can sort by disipline of offspring - http://www.blup.se/en-US/rank/stallion/offspring_count_comp_event/desc/40

[Waterwitch]

British Eventing Top 50 Sires of All Time (through December 2007):

http://www.britisheventing.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=886&filetitle=Top+50+Sires+All+Time

[JER]

So what are the common factors in all those breedings.

A hefty percentage of TB blood.

Just to look at Drvm's list

Heraldik - full TB
Stan the Man -- full TB
Cavalier Royale -- SF x Holsteiner with 50% (or more?) TB blood and also some Trotter
Catherston Dazzler -- 5/8ths TB, 1/8th Irish, 2/8 Dutch (Gelderlander)
Master Imp -- full TB
Welton Crackerjack -- 15/16ths TB
Welton Apollo -- full TB

[Oakstable]

Eventers definately want the TB cross. I looked through the ATA sales list expecting to find a bunch of them and they weren't there except for one in Montana.

My trainer competes at Open Preliminary. She has two young Anglo-Trak geldings in the wings for future competition horses. Sires are Fandango and Pavarotti, both in CA./

[JWB]

Here in the US, Amethyst produced several. Another trakhener with a great offspring record was Fleetwater Opposition.

[equusaround]

Windfall is a TK, that went to the Olympics for USA and has sired many event horses.

[JER]

If I am wrong about this -- and I looked at the USEF lists, their pages at ATA and at New Spring Farm -- please correct me but AFAIK Windfall and Amethyst have yet to see their offspring get to the ULs of eventing. IMO, they don't yet belong in the class of the stallions that Drvm listed based on offspring performance.

OTOH, Fleetwater Opposition has produced multiple CCI**** eventers, including a CCI**** stallion son, Yarlands Summersong, who in turn has produced a CCI**** stallion son, Leprince des Bois.

[ponygirl]

With all the talk of eventing stallions a conversation came up last night about "what common factors in bloodlines" are part of it.
Is there or has there been a stallion who made several upper level eventers? If so, who, what stallion?
What were the traits and crossed with? Common factors?

Riverman has created a few.

[Kaluna]

Mokheiba is an English bred TB and has produced many eventers. His semen is distributed through - oh - his name is escaping me right now but big eventer in central PA who runs an event himself. Help me, guys. I have known a number of Mokheiba children all of whom event. Some are better than others in dressage but all can jump in an uncomplicated way.

Riverman also has produces some eventers. I have a friend who breeds her TB mares to him to produce eventers. She has been very happy with the outcome.

Traits? I think WB/TBs and TBs are the ideal cross. you need stamina, fitness and willingness to go forward over jumps at speed of the TB and the relaxation and movement of the WB. But mind is most important. People use American TBs, English and French TBs, and a varieties of WBs. To me it seems that eventers have much more variety in their pedigrees than jumpers or dressage horses. They draw from many sources.

[AppJumpr08]

Denis Glaccum?

[secretariat]

Also talked to death, but don't underestimate the importance of the mare in producing a particular type of offspring. We've looked for years for male line siblings of our two Advanced horses, without success. Just not the same talent, the same type of horse.

Then we were fortunate to find Nemo's mom, foaled a spectacular 5/8 sibling this year and bred her to Catherston Dazzler for next year - proven advanced producer x proven eventing sire. Keep your fingers crossed for us, and in 10 years we'll let you know how we did. That's the other difficult issue in evaluating the topic, it's always after the fact (CD just died) and frequently too late.

IMO, importance of parentage is 60/40 to the mare (opinion, no data, just 50 years of small breeding experience). So don't expect to breed an awesome stallion to an average mare and get much. It's just so much easier to track the get of stallions, and usually there's a lot more data!

[STF]

What is the market for people wanting eventing prospects? What does the average:
Eventing sold foal go for?
Eventing young horse go for?
Trained at BN to Training go for?
Trained at Prelim to Advanced go for?

I know it depends a lot on the horse, who is selling the horse, etc. etc. Im just asking average wise if someone was looking, what they would expect to spend. AVERAGE.

Just curious......

[Sakura Hill Farm]

We too would like to here opinions on this. Conventional wisdom has it that event prospects go for a song.....is there truth to this?

[elizabeth Callahan]

Most foals I sell don't go for eventing. I breed for that and have been relatively successful, but most of them are sold as dressage/jumping prospects b/c they are good movers and good jumpers - which is what eventers have to be these days. I find most eventers in the US want cheap horses that they can ride NOW, as opposed to buying a bred for the sport prospect. It is rare ( unheard of actually) that I have buyer who comes to me looking for a foal as an event horse. You can go to the track and buy a 3-4 yr old who is going, - or even 2-3 of them and discard the ones who don't make it, for the same price as one of my foals.
Event horses also go cheap - a good training horse, who is safe and steady will go for 10-20K, depending if he can move up to prelim and I have sold advanced horses ( who didn't like dressage for instance, so not competitive in today's events ) for 50k.
There are exceptions, but most of my babies end up event horses only b/c I event and am riding them as well. Occasionally I get lucky and they get into the "right" hands and event for someone else...

[Majestic Gaits]

I agree the TB has been the biggest influence in eventing. Also, agree that the mare is more important than the stallion. Stallions have a bigger impact on the breeding as there is so much more than the mare can produce. But, a good motherline is extremely important.

I have bred for an all around horse. I want my dressage horses to be able to jump and my jumping horses with good movement that can do dressage. I find a lot of eventers like what we have because of that all around talent. We also have a lot of interest in the eventing because of Navarone (http://www.majesticgaits.com/navarone.htm) producing GP jumpers and his jumping talent too but also reaching GP dressage this year. And his son Thunder III doing well in eventing internationally and helping make the KWPN studbook for the first time #5 in the World for eventing with the WBFSH. For him, I like him crossed with the TB lines, but he has his share of TB in him too.

Because the KWPN has pushed for specialization in the breeding, I think it has hurt for breeding for eventing. But, there is a lot of us who really like the all around horse. :-)

Kathy

[Maren]

Windfall has produced two ** and *** horses in Europe from his very short 2year breeding life in the German Trakehner population. His oldest US offspring are coming 8yr olds.

His entire sire line (Burnus AAH and sire Habicht) has an impeccable record at the upper levels in eventing, both as competition horses (both Burnus and Habicht competed ***) and as sires. Interestingly, also across the three Olympic disciplines and a very high pre-potency for exceptional overall athleticism (on a variety of mares, but usually TB as a 50/50 cross with the best results).

[YankeeLawyer]

Most foals I sell don't go for eventing. I breed for that and have been relatively successful, but most of them are sold as dressage/jumping prospects b/c they are good movers and good jumpers - which is what eventers have to be these days. I find most eventers in the US want cheap horses that they can ride NOW, as opposed to buying a bred for the sport prospect. It is rare ( unheard of actually) that I have buyer who comes to me looking for a foal as an event horse. You can go to the track and buy a 3-4 yr old who is going, - or even 2-3 of them and discard the ones who don't make it, for the same price as one of my foals.
Event horses also go cheap - a good training horse, who is safe and steady will go for 10-20K, depending if he can move up to prelim and I have sold advanced horses ( who didn't like dressage for instance, so not competitive in today's events ) for 50k.
.


This is spot on. My assistant is an eventer and she trains with some Olympic level eventers. They tend to make their own horses, and when they buy, they tend to buy cheap. They also have more options available to them because they can ride the pants off just about anything, so they are not deterred by horses that are green or a bit difficult.

[Kerole]

I have to agree with eC too. I have bred horses with top level New Zealand TB eventing bloodlines. They are without exception beautiful, well built, and big moving. But they are usually snapped up for showing, show hunter, and dressage at a young age. The event riders prefer to buy riding age horses and spend considerably less for a youngster than I charge!

It has proved frustrating at times but I can't really complain as my young horses are selling well even if they're not going straight into an eventing home.

[JER]

Windfall has produced two ** and *** horses in Europe from his very short 2year breeding life in the German Trakehner population.

Could you name names? I couldn't find any details on these horses and I'd like to see/learn about them.

[eventer80]

I just finished a long search for a 1-3 year old event prospect. I ended up with a 2 year old Irish Sport Horse, who's sire is a successful event horse. I am in Texas, and found him here, so his price was pretty inline in this region. He is an A+ mover and is very smart and brave. I paid $5000.

Here's what I found when looking for an event horse:
1. Not many are purposely bred and marketed for eventing. I am assuming because it is more lucrative to sell a h/j or dressage prospect.

2. You have to dig hard to find SOME of the successful event bloodlines. Windstar, Windfall, some other of the more popular stallions that have been around for a while were more easily accessible, but the Irish and British bloodlines required more work.

3. Prices for these youngsters ran from $5000-$15000 (before the 3 year olds were backed).

STF:

BN-Training- anywhere from $5000 (goes BN, doesn't win much but is safe)-$35000 (winning Training level horse)

Beyond that I am not sure, I haven't ever been in the market for that kind of horse.....But I am going to estimate from other threads that have addressed this question:

Prelim- $18000-$45000

Intermediate-$35000-$75000

Advanced- $60000+

[TwinGates]

Could you name names? I couldn't find any details on these horses and I'd like to see/learn about them.

Karambeau M (out of an Anduc dam) under Kai-Steffen Maier is the *** eventer; not sure about the **.

Here's a link: http://www.trakehners-international.com/idealevent.html

[YankeeLawyer]

3. Prices for these youngsters ran from $5000-$15000 (before the 3 year olds were backed).


In my experience, the price for a youngster, even a nice one, does not fluctuate much from the time it is a weanling until it is backed. It is very difficult to get significantly more than that for them before they are started, but once started the price can jump a lot for the nice ones.

[Molly Malone]

Does anyone know if there is any frozen of Fontainbleau (EH Rockefeller) available? He's a proven UL event producer.

[JER]

Karambeau M (out of an Anduc dam) under Kai-Steffen Maier is the *** eventer; not sure about the **.

Thanks!

(Although it seems Karambeau M is no longer with KS Meier (http://www.ksm-eventing.de/pferde.html) -- he does have his maternal half-sister who is by Heraldik.)

[TwinGates]

Does anyone know if there is any frozen of Fontainbleau (EH Rockefeller) available? He's a proven UL event producer.

Hopefully Maren has some insight on Fontainbleau frozen semen. He's not on the Verband stallion list, but perhaps some "private stock" exists? His approved son El Greco - out of an Amagun (Gunnar) daughter - is a CCI*** eventer who also had success at M level jumpers is available.

Maybe even more than Fontainbleau, I'd love to have more E.H. Rockefeller blood in my breeding program. The Rockefeller son, Artistic Rock - out of Seeadler (Habicht) - is on the 'short list' as a future sire for my mare still in Germany.

[Joshua's Mom]

We bred Missy Ransenhousen's Advanced horse,"Critical Decision" He is by Consul out of an old line TB mare. Meghan , at Iron Spring, tells me that there are several other VERY successful Eventers that are by Consul. You should give him a try. We sold him as a 3 yr old as a Dressage Prospect, going undersaddle .
WE also bred two Corlando's as Event horses. Chaya aka "Almost Perfect" owned by Lauren Seitz, has been Champion or Reserve at every Eventing Sporthorse Breeding Compitition. Packey McGaughb has Chaplain. we will see how he does.

I know that Talley has quite a bit of Frozen around on Corlando.

[Kaluna]

Denis Glaccum?

Yes, thank you.

[Mkelle11]

There's a grandson of Fontainbleau who's breeding. http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/Inamorato.asp

[TwinGates]

There's a grandson of Fontainbleau who's breeding. http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/Inamorato.asp

Yes, I have a bid on him in the ATA SSA to potentially cross with my E.H. Rockefeller granddaughter. Resulting foal would have E.H. Consul, Fontainbleau and E.H. Rockefeller in the 3rd generation. :))

[westonmaestro]

I did a fair bit of research into this when breeding eventers, which is why I bought my first mare who was by Hoarwithy who in this country had proven to be not only a producer of eventers but from what I could gather a good broodmare getter. This was back in 1983 and it was very difficult to work out. She pproved that theory right by breeding 6 foals for me before I sadly lost her having her last. I used Bohemond twice Krisinsky twice, Senang Hati once and Louella Incshallah ii once.
She produced 1 advanced mare by Krisinsky who then produced my boy Weston Justice, a grade A showjumper by Inshallah, 2 more Intermediate eventer and a brill hunter who still puts a day in at22.
My main criteria was bloodlines that showed trainablity and soundness which was at that time easiest to see in TB line and the old HIS records. Sadly its almost harder now because so much hype is given to lines before its proven.
Both Krisinsky and Criminal Law have produced 4 star eventers, both have TBlines with black type through them so were Ithought a safe bet to use which proved right as my boy got to 4 star but didnt complete due to my incompetance not his.