Carolinas Phoenix Picture(s)? Also, Downland linebreeding bloodstock in the US?

[pwynnnorman]

Does anyone know of any pictures of this mare (dam of Lands End Poseidon)? Also, can anyone help me create a list of mares or stallions or young stock which double down on Downland Chevalier OR other Downland Dauphin/Love-in-the-Mist linebreeding within about three generations? Also, also: any picture sof Llanarth Rhapsody out there other than (what looks like) the yearling shot on Allbreedpedigree.com?

[twinlights]

Here is the pedigree for one of my mares.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tlf+marzipan
She goes back to Downland Chevalier several times.

[rideagoldenpony]

This mare is heavily Downland bred, through some ponies that are uncommon for US breeding: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/skellorn+mystical

Photos: http://www.welshponies.com/mystical.htm

[VirginiaBred]

Here are Phoenix and Rhapsody.
http://www.landsendfarm.com/broodmares.html

Nancy Reed bred Poseidon.

[DownYonder]

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but the German pony Stibby-ME (aka Sweet Rock Solid) has Downland Dauphin twice from his damsire.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stibby+me

FWIW, he is in the 2010 Oldenburg stallion service auction.

http://oldenburghorse.auctionanything.com/

[Tamara in TN]

Does anyone know of any pictures of this mare (dam of Lands End Poseidon)? Also, can anyone help me create a list of mares or stallions or young stock which double down on Downland Chevalier OR other Downland Dauphin/Love-in-the-Mist linebreeding within about three generations? Also, also: any picture sof Llanarth Rhapsody out there other than (what looks like) the yearling shot on Allbreedpedigree.com?

don't know if this is what you are looking for but I wanted badly to buy D. Rembrandt years ago and did not,I have often wondered what it would have been like if I had bought him or a similar stallion years ago....

I have always liked that style of pony
http://www.glenhavenwelsh.com/section_b_welsh.htm

Tamara in TN

[elizabeth Callahan]

You could try Phoenix's owner - Nancy Jane Reed, of Land's end Farm in Centreville MD She also owns Rhapsody, although both those girls are getting up in age now

[pwynnnorman]

I don't know why Land's End didn't come up when I searched for Carolinas Phoenix. Thanks for the pics, Randee. (But my word, that Rhapsody is sooo TB-y looking! Now I know the origin of those long necks!)

The various pedigrees posted have pointed out a few Dauphin crosses that I wasn't aware of. I'm fascinated by the Solway Master Bronze x Downland Chevalier cross. Poseidon's pedigree led me to the Keston prefix, but I wasn't aware that there was another Keston stallion of the same cross...but LOOK AT TLF Marzipan's three Chevalier/Master Bronze crosses! Wow, do you have a picture? Rembrandt has always fascinated me, too--he's like a clone of Master Bronze, IIRC, and has such intense/concentrated blood. It makes me wonder how the outcrossing from that concentrated Downland blood (represented by Poseidon and The Colonel and their various siblings) stacks up against the continued concentration of it, as represented by Rembrandt.

Now, Stibbe Me seems to be the classic result of inbreeding/linebreeding to OUTCROSS, kind of like Carolinas Red Fox so "purely" illustrates how the concentrated Downland blood on the bottom produced something really industry-impacting (in the US) when outcrossed with Solway Master Bronze. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he is a TOTAL outcross to Downland blood, right? I see the Criban prefix way back, but no duplication of the any actual individuals.

It would be very interesting to find the product of, say, a Rembrant daughter and a linebred Master Bronze, but I suppose the dates just don't line up well enough for that to have happened. You'd think maybe there'd be something by Carolinas Purple Emperor, but I didn't recognize anything on his progeny list (except Red Fox). They (Purple Emperor and Rembrandt) are only six years apart in age, but I suppose they are/were an ocean apart in residence, so their "intersection" is unlikely? Same with the outcross to Lustre, I suppose (a 1950s to 60s contemporary of Master Bronze and Chevalier). OH, no wait: Pendock Masterpiece is an own son of Master Bronze! Now he's got to have a slew of daughters or sons out there--and he has not one drop of Downland blood either. Hmmmm...More research to do.

[BTW, take a look at Downland Eidelweiss, though (in Phoenix's bottom line): that mare practically IS Love-in-the-Mist! Reminds me of how intensely you can find Raffles in some Arabians (including the sire of my foundation mare).]

Anyway, thanks for the information.

[Summerwood]

PWynn,
Glenhaven has a lot of Chevalier blood in their program.

Two other mares that I have seen in person that actually went through the sale this summer in Ontario with Chevalier x 2 up close are:

*Pennwood Panama, now owned by Brookside Stud, Sandy Costanzo-O'Brian. She is an exquisite pony in person and despite limited handling at her former home, she was very sweet and quiet at the sale. Outstanding hunter movement. Panama was bred to I think *Cadlan Valley Bodacious for a '10 foal.

*Downland Satinwood, who was I believe purchased by the same person who purchased Fydlyn Adlais and who posts here, is another one. She is also a nice looking pony in person. Also seemed like a nice mover. I believe she is bred to Fydlyn Adlais for a '10 foal.

Amy

[Summerwood]

TLF Marzipan:

http://www.twinlightsfarm.net/ourhorses.html

[quicksilverponies]

Wynn, here is the pedigree of a mare I just bought that is very heavily Downland bred and the dam of my new buckskin stallion prospect. I plan to breed her to Adagio in the Spring.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/boston+blodwyn

The new colt has the following pedigree - also a lot of Downland breeding - I plan to cross him on my Red Fox daughter and granddaughters.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/barkmeadow+gold+mine

And this is another new colt that I just purchased - his sire was very closely related to Pendock Masterpiece...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/barkmeadow+black+gold

[VirginiaBred]

In addition to the Moodys at Glenhaven, you should contact Darlene Morton whose breeding program is heavily into the Downland lines as well. Darlene is extremely nice and would love to discuss her ponies.

http://www.mortonstables.com/

[twinlights]

My girl Marzipan is by one of Suzanne Moody's stallions, out of an older imported mare. They have a lot of the bloodlines you are looking for. My pony's sire is deceased unfortunately.
I had forgotten to post photos.
http://www.twinlightsfarm.net/marzipanspage.html
I also forgot to add Marzipan's half brother, same bloodlines on the dam's side.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bennos+noreaster He is a fabulous pony, but has the German Riding pony sire.
http://www.twinlightsfarm.net/Stormyspage.html
This thread is very interesting and informative. Thinking maybe Marzipan needs to have some all welsh foals. Finding some interesting ideas for stallions.

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks for all those leads. I will contact those breeders. I would like to know what they were hoping to produce (phenotypically or genotypically) and what they got in terms of what they expected and didn't expect. I'd also LOVE to figure out some way to establish (or guestimate) a sort-of "prepotency index" on the intensity of some of that blood.

Quicksilver, what about you? What are you looking to get from the linebreeding? ME, it'd be the movement and neck, specifically, but without the rumored Red Fox hotness (I say rumored because, except on my super-hot Melody mare, I haven't come upon, or produced, anything hot by The Colonel). It seems to be, in fact, that double-downing on Downland has little correlation with temperament.

Anyone have other perspectives on that?

Also, any observations on what outcrosses (a la "inbreed to outcross") score well with Chevalier, other than Master Bronze, especially in terms of getting that "little TB" phenotype? Would Lustre lines--like Cymraeg Rainbeau--put more "Welshiness" on? I see that neither have so much as a drop of Downland (nor much linebreeding either!), which I think is interesting, given their impacts.

[quicksilverponies]

Well, I am not really trying to linebreed the Downland lines, as I am trying more to cross proven hunter bloodlines to get the head, neck, movement, jump and size - all with the perfect quiet temperament:). It just happens that Downland shows up a lot in the ponies I like. I have not found my Red Fox babies to be hot AT ALL. In fact, most people that know Adagio will attest to his laid back attitude and his babies that are in my barn are all puppy dog quiet. I guess as most pony breeders are - I am trying to breed the perfect pony. My goal is primarily purebred Sec. Bs that are top of the line mediums - typey enough to compete at Welsh breed shows, but with the hunter movement and jump that I like. Obviously some crosses work better than others. I particularly like my crossings of my Vida Blue daughter with Adagio. I am looking forward to crossing my Pendock bred ponies with the Downland lines to see what comes up. This is a filly I really love that was born this past Spring. She is by Adagio out of Hillcrests Silkscreen by Gayfields Vida Blue. She will be out and showing this Spring.

[VirginiaBred]

My goal is primarily purebred Sec. Bs that are top of the line mediums - typey enough to compete at Welsh breed shows, but with the hunter movement and jump


Big market for those, too. :yes:

[unbridledoaks]

I love these lines and have taken notes over the years making sure I understood as much as I could. Talking to breeders first hand over in the UK about them has been so interesting.

Here is my first attempt of an outcross of the Downland/Carolina's breeding and it seemed to work. Now I want to take her back to a Downland stallion, since you only outcross once, or so I have been told. This filly is by a 13:3 hand stallion and out of a 12:2 hand mare. She stands 13:1 as a coming 3 year old. So it seems no height or type was lost.

http://unbridledoaks.wishbroke.com/images/IMG_0763.jpg

[Summerwood]

PWynn, check out the pedigree of *Pennwood Gwr Bondheddig from Clarwood Farms:

www.allbreedpedigree.com/pennwood+gwr+bonheddig

Gwr's sire is Eyarth Harlequin, a son of Eyarth Celebration. Eyarth Celebration was a Solway Master Bronze/Downland Chevalier product from his sire, Keston Royal Occasion. Harlequin's dam was Weston Twiggy, who was from a different line, with a couple crosses to Gorsty Firefly. Harlequin is a full brother to Eyarth Arabella and Eyarth Zsa Zsa, who figures prominently in Rideagoldenponies' pedigrees. So you see here the SMB/Chevalier cross working with Weston Twiggy's pedigree to produce at least 2 wonderful producing mares.
Gwr's granddam dam was Downland bred, with 3 crosses to Love-in-the-Mist and one Downland Dauphin. His dam also had Solway Master Bronze close up on her sire's side.
I have a 2009 filly by Gwr who I am absolutely in love with. I crossed him with my Vida Blue mare and the filly is a keeper. Clarwood has a gelding son of his, C. Gentleman Jim, who did well at Devon, and Gwr himself is doing well in the hunter ring and Helen says he is just a "good guy". I think he has maintained a lot of welsh type and my filly has it too. You can see photos of Gwr at www.clarwoodwelshponies.com or on my website under reference sires.

[pwynnnorman]

Oooooh, she got the beetlejuice head, Quicksilver! (That's my endearment for that exquisite little head in Adagio's line!) She is gorgeous.

Are you excited about that cross because of the Mountain Pony in Vida Blue? Are you planning to use that to get the consistent medium? I find him interesting because he's had an impact but without having a lot of line breeding up close. You'd think--if this were as scientific as one might wish it were--that he'd be a very good one for outcrossing.

BTW, I, too, haven't encountered any hot babies by The Colonel, except a filly I have whose mom is a pistol. Perhaps it was the mare? (Or maybe that long-standing rumor originated in jealous competitors?)

Unbridledoaks, I'm in LOVE! Ohhh, my GAWD, is that exquisite or what! Would you care to share what you learned from those breeders? What goes into some of their decisionmaking?

I was completely unaware of Keston Royal Occasion until recently, Summerwood. I'm not sure why. Is it because his prefix is UK and so his blood is obscured by US prefixes? And how interesting that you've gone with Vida Blue, too. Was there a specific reason for that?

[rideagoldenpony]

I was completely unaware of Keston Royal Occasion until recently, Summerwood. I'm not sure why. Is it because his prefix is UK and so his blood is obscured by US prefixes? And how interesting that you've gone with Vida Blue, too. Was there a specific reason for that?

Keston Royal Occasion was very influential in UK Section B breeding -- until he was exported to Australia. His son, Rotherwood State Occasion was also an extremely influential sire. You can see him and a write up at the bottom of this page: http://www.rotherwoodstud.com/atstud.htm

Also by K. Royal Occasion, is Eyarth Celebration, another very influential UK sire. I won't bore you with further details, however, since ponies of that stamp look to be not what you are looking for.

[Summerwood]

I was completely unaware of Keston Royal Occasion until recently, Summerwood. I'm not sure why. Is it because his prefix is UK and so his blood is obscured by US prefixes? And how interesting that you've gone with Vida Blue, too. Was there a specific reason for that?

Perhaps that is why. I think if you go back and look at the pedigrees of ponies you like you might find him in there. That is why I mentioned him. I cruise around the internet, find a pony I like, and look at the pedigree. I find he is frequently in the pedigrees of ponies I like, usually through his sons Eyarth Celebration or Rotherwood State Occasion.
As for my choice with my Vida Blue mare, my reasons weren't terribly scientific. However, looking back on the choice, it was a good one for me. I was specifically looking for a stallion with a better hip than the mare...she is somewhat weak in the hindquarter. Also, I wanted to add some imported blood to add some welsh type to the mare, she is beautiful but somewhat more "strung out" than I would like the foal to be. Since she is 21 years old, I was looking to get some blood I wanted in my herd for a keeper filly. I definately got what I wanted, the filly has a really great hindquarter and more welsh type than her dam. Time will tell if she kept the gorgeous Vida canter but so far it looks like she has it.
I find it interesting that Melinda likes the Vida Blue cross with her Adagio. I had a '08 colt I sold who was from Red Fox lines out of my Vida Blue mare. It was a good cross and I have high hopes for his future where he is. Good luck with yours, Melinda! :)

[crownridgefarms]

Summerwood you are right! I did breed Fydlyn Adlais to Downland Satinwood. The resulting foal will be heavily Downland linebred. I am very excited, the mare is due in June!

Here is her pedigree
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+satinwood

And here is Adlais pedigree
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fydlyn+adlais

[pwynnnorman]

My word! Everytime I think we couldn't possibly come up with more intense Cavalier/Dauphin blood, someone introduces yet another!

crownridgefarms, that pony may as well be Dauphin. Just two generations back and its practically ALL him. Do you have any pictures of him--or his get? Surely, he (Satinwood) must be super pre-potent!

BUT, that said, you aren't worried about how similar your mare is, especially on the bottom? Your mare's dam is his dam's full sister AND he's also got a double-dose of Master Bronze and more Dauphin on top, too.

Are there ANY drawbacks to having that much of that blood--or it is like Raffles in Arabians (he was intensely linebreed a LOT, too--which I know because my foundation mare's sire WAS Raffles in every single line by the time you got four generations back)? [Freaks me out still, but I love to show it: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jr+lyraff

[crownridgefarms]

Yes, that is why I cannot wait until June! I have said before foaling season is better than Christmas! I have photos of Adlais on my website, but I do not have any of Sadie (Satinwood) yet. She is very fuzzy right now, so I want to wait until she sheds out. I am not worried about about the stallion and mare being too closely related. I have seen many resulting foals of closer blood, and basically you know what you are going to get. I don't agree with colt being bred to dam, that is just too close for me. I have yet to see any bad characterstics in the bloodlines of my mare and stallion, I just think the foal will have even stronger good attributes that the Downland lines are known for. Hope that helps:)

[crownridgefarms]

Our Fydlyn Adlais X Downland Satinwood foal has arrived!
A beautiful filly with a gorgeous face.

Here is the pedigree again

Sire:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fydlyn+adlais

Dam
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/downland+satinwood

[pwynnnorman]

No pics? U tease!

[crownridgefarms]

Will have pics soon! Her face is to die for!

[crownridgefarms]

Updated photos of our Fydlyn Adlais X Downland Satinwood Filly

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000437663835#!/photo.php?pid=259219&id=100000437663835&fbid=133084156716172

[pwynnnorman]

Sorry if I'm being a dolt, but where are the pictures on your facebook page? I wasn't sure what the link is.

[crownridgefarms]

Sorry if I'm being a dolt, but where are the pictures on your facebook page? I wasn't sure what the link is.

Not a dolt at all, I am!!
I put the wrong link.
Here is the link to her photo album:)
http://www.facebook.com/people/Crown-Ridge-Farms/100000437663835#!/photo.php?pid=259219&id=100000437663835