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View Full Version : Crosspost: Help me solve a mystery. (Long) Update!! Pg. 3



Mac123
Dec. 31, 2009, 04:18 PM
I have a horse that has something wrong with it and we cannot figure out what it is. ANY thoughts are appreciated!!!

Original presentation: Horse had had two days off (due to a muscle spasm in my back). He had been going fabulously. First ride back was argumentative and quick. I originally thought he was fresh but began to realize he wasn't right and must be sore somewhere.

He was tight through the back, a bit quick, and snarky when using the right rein. Over fences, did not push off the ground and was weak on takeoff. Toward the end of the ride he began bucking or kicking out when I used the right rein or during the left canter transition.

Day two: Very backsore, felt NQR at all under tack. "Offness" was moving around - felt it up front and behind. Pulled the saddle and he was very backsore.

Day three: Realized the left front frog had considerable thrush and was very sore through the frog and heel.

I gave him about a week off and while he looked better on the longe line, he was still presenting under saddle. Below is a total list of symptoms, listed in order of thought as they spring to mind.


Symptoms:

Backsore - more towards the back of where the saddle lies (last thoracic, first lumbar) but is sore all through the saddle area.
Funny on the right hind
Hot stifle and hock points
Flexes positive on each hock ONLY on the outside of a turn - he is sound on the straightaways immediately after the flexion and only positive through the turn on the outside hind
Thrush in left front frog - considerably sore in the frog and heal bulbs
Funny on left front
Bucking through transitions and after landing after low fences
Worse when weightbearing - the heavier the rider, the worse it is
Will not connect over the back - there is no continuation of energy. He is quick tempoed, doesn't use his back, and does not stretch out and down. No elasticity.
Snarky
Generally bodysore
Cannot do a right-left leadchange under saddle or at liberty. He will swap up front but not behind. He has difficulty with undersaddle changes, but has always been able to do them at liberty with ease.
He has had consistent trouble with the right-left change under saddle, which should be his easy direction. Lead change boot camp has not helped, so I know it's physical.


With time off, the backsoreness IMPROVES, the hock and stifle points stay mostly the same.

The saddle fits very well, and while switching to a saddle that has a greater weight-bearing surface did make him more comfortable, he was still bucking through the transitions and jumping. Every saddle pad known to mankind has been tried with no results.

My inclination is that the backsoreness is secondary because it is the first thing to improve with time off but comes back whenever he is ridden. If the backsoreness was primary, it wouldn't improve at all. And no saddle or pad combination make him comfortable.

No heat, no swelling, no identifiable gimp.

I had a vet look at him on Monday who does chiro/acupuncture. She was not able to find anything other than the hot hock/stifle points, the strange flexion result, and that his pelvis and lumbosacral were out of place. She adjusted him and injected the hock points with B12 and gave me a chinese herb (Body Sore) for his body soreness.

He looked great afterwards, but immediately began presenting under saddle.

I am wondering if the sore thrushy left front could cause all of this....if he's holding himself funky to protect that it could cause soreness through the right hind (compensatory) and through the back.

This all happened all of the sudden. He was going great, had two days off, and all the sudden is like this. The vet agreed with my original assessment that he may have gotten cast or fallen in the paddock triggering something....but this doesn't make sense as it is clearly related to being ridden.

I am going crazy and want to keep my hair...any thoughts???

ETA - horse is a 7 year old TB schooling 3'9-4' in grids and 3' to 3'3 courses. Normally relaxed, quiet, excellent flatwork, lovely, powerful jump. Daily turnout in small paddock (not ideal, I know, but it is what it is). Safe choice and lots of hay. No prior lamenesses or issues other than a bad case of thrush behind a couple months ago that left him sore as well.

Jacqui
Dec. 31, 2009, 05:41 PM
I would have a certified saddle fitter out asap. I can take a long time for his back to heal and if you give him time off and he gets better and then you use the same saddle he is going to be sore again right away.A horse at our barn took 6 weeks and a new custom saddle to be right again!

That being said thrush and foot soreness can make them miserable and need to compensate. My horse was tripping on his left front going to the right on a circle, when checked by the vet and farrier it was because he was sore in his front right.

I would also ask the vet to check for lyme disease.
Good Luck

jrhunter111
Dec. 31, 2009, 05:44 PM
I also was going to suggest checking for Lyme disease. It explains most of the symptoms you've described. Checking certainly can't hurt!

WishIWereRiding
Dec. 31, 2009, 06:02 PM
I would look into a possible suspensory injury in the hind leg (not sure which from your post--maybe right?). Often it is visible when the injured leg is on the outside. It can also be subtle, and not so obvious on the lunge, only under saddle. Stop working him so if that is the case you don't do any more damage. My horse came up lame about 4 months ago. I had a great ride, turned him out overnight, and the next day he felt NQR, and progressively got worse. Looked okay on the lunge, but undersaddle he just felt NQR, and like he didn't want to use his hind end. Nothing was swollen or tender. When the vet first saw him he found he was "lame all over." Everything hurt. He flexed positively everywhere, but worse on the left hind. Vet wasn't sure where to start, so we drew a Lyme titer, which wasn't impressive. Eventually he got a bone scan, lots of stuff lit up, and then the suspensory injury was diagnosed after blocking him and confirming the injury with an ultrasound. The only thing we can guess is that he did something in turnout that night. Also, horses can get sore in the back from something else hurting them in their hind end.

Lucassb
Dec. 31, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'd pull blood - stuff like Lyme, EPM etc can all cause the symptoms you describe.

CBoylen
Dec. 31, 2009, 06:24 PM
Fix the thrush. If the heel hurts, the horse is in serious pain. Particularly when it's on the outside. Which is when you are using the right rein.

Bogie
Dec. 31, 2009, 06:44 PM
Fix the thrush. If the heel hurts, the horse is in serious pain. Particularly when it's on the outside. Which is when you are using the right rein.

I'd certainly start there and see how he is once his heel doesn't hurt.

BlueBobRadar
Dec. 31, 2009, 07:07 PM
Haven't read the other posts, but when I read this my first thought was Lymes disease.

Maybe the thrush is unrelated, and just a bad coincidence? (Just thinking out loud) Good luck & I hope he feels better soon!

Mac123
Dec. 31, 2009, 07:42 PM
Thanks for everyone's input.

Does Lymes set in so quickly and in the winter?

He was literally the best he'd ever gone, had 2 days off, and was like this.

I have to say, if you didn't know the horse well you wouldn't really be able to see it. It's not an obvious thing - it's subtle, more felt than seen. My bff/mentor is in town and she didn't understand what I was talking about completely until she sat on him - and he almost bucked her off. :lol: You literally can't get him over the back and through, which I know, sounds like saddle!

If we weren't experienced with saddle fitting I'd say it's saddle, but literally, the saddle is fitting better than ever. Like a custom fit. We always go to the saddle first, and we did this time too, but after two great fitting saddles don't make a lick of difference, I don't think it's that. Particularly since that's the first thing to get better....

Can't hear anything off either - he tracks even and straight. Yet the suspension within the stride is minimized.

It's really weird.

I'd almost say that there's a couple things going on...something behind and something upfront???

WishIWereRiding
Dec. 31, 2009, 07:57 PM
Thanks for everyone's input.

Does Lymes set in so quickly and in the winter?

He was literally the best he'd ever gone, had 2 days off, and was like this.

I have to say, if you didn't know the horse well you wouldn't really be able to see it. It's not an obvious thing - it's subtle, more felt than seen. My bff/mentor is in town and she didn't understand what I was talking about completely until she sat on him - and he almost bucked her off. :lol: You literally can't get him over the back and through, which I know, sounds like saddle!

If we weren't experienced with saddle fitting I'd say it's saddle, but literally, the saddle is fitting better than ever. Like a custom fit. We always go to the saddle first, and we did this time too, but after two great fitting saddles don't make a lick of difference, I don't think it's that. Particularly since that's the first thing to get better....

Can't hear anything off either - he tracks even and straight. Yet the suspension within the stride is minimized.

It's really weird.

I'd almost say that there's a couple things going on...something behind and something upfront???

This is exactly how my horse presented. Didn't want to use his hind end. When I asked him to carry himself and sit on his hocks, he would for a few strides, then the strides would get shorter and shorter until he didn't want to move anymore. To someone standing on the ground, it looked like he didn't want to move/use his back. And on the lunge you couldn't see anything. My trainer (who believed what I was feeling) didn't understand it completely until she rode him for the vet one day (I couldn't be there), and my horse didn't want to go, and almost bucked her off.

I knew it wasn't saddle fit because my horse has a custom saddle that had just been adjusted for him. He was sore up front, and probably because he was hurting so much behind, he didn't want to put too much weight on that hind leg. The vet started with blocking one of the front legs, which made no difference. He moved to the left hind, and when he got to the suspensory insertion at the hock, he was sound. And the ultrasound later showed a big, bad injury. I think it is really something you should look into because your story sounds like mine. Fortunately because my horse is insured, I was able to have surgery done, and now he is hopefully on the road to recovery.

Mac123
Dec. 31, 2009, 10:04 PM
This is exactly how my horse presented. Didn't want to use his hind end. When I asked him to carry himself and sit on his hocks, he would for a few strides, then the strides would get shorter and shorter until he didn't want to move anymore. To someone standing on the ground, it looked like he didn't want to move/use his back. And on the lunge you couldn't see anything. My trainer (who believed what I was feeling) didn't understand it completely until she rode him for the vet one day (I couldn't be there), and my horse didn't want to go, and almost bucked her off.

I knew it wasn't saddle fit because my horse has a custom saddle that had just been adjusted for him. He was sore up front, and probably because he was hurting so much behind, he didn't want to put too much weight on that hind leg. The vet started with blocking one of the front legs, which made no difference. He moved to the left hind, and when he got to the suspensory insertion at the hock, he was sound. And the ultrasound later showed a big, bad injury. I think it is really something you should look into because your story sounds like mine. Fortunately because my horse is insured, I was able to have surgery done, and now he is hopefully on the road to recovery.

Believe me, I am open to (and scared for) a suspensory injury - several have come up in my barn recently...BUT, my guy isn't using his hind end in a different way than your guy.

Mine doesn't reduce his stride length or his tempo. He will sit on his hocks, but won't carry the connection through his back. He will quicken his tempo largely - his natural tempo is slow - and become over-productive with the hind end, but it is more out behind him.

He will go go go really quick tempoed and only bucks through the transition (first time today) or on landing from a fence.

He's definitely motivated to go - he just wants to run and not take a weight bearing stride. That's what I meant when I said he didn't use his hind end, sorry, I wasn't clear.

My thought is that really taking the weight and thrusting through is the problem - due to a front or hind issue - or that carrying the connection through the back is the problem. Any of those three make sense but doesn't help in diagnosing where it is.

Does this sound like a presentation of a suspensory injury, maybe in a different place? I would imagine that he wouldn't want to go, like your guy, but he's turned into a speedy little demon with no suspension to the stride.

Thoughts?

Claudius
Dec. 31, 2009, 10:23 PM
FIX the thrush first...start with the obvious. compensatory lameness can explain his sypmtoms.....fix what's broke. then see where you are. Soak his thrushy foot in very warm epsom salts for 15 mins. dry. treat with thrush med of choice, or triple antibiotic ointment syringed into the infected area. Treat next day with med of choice. Get all the soreness out of the foot, give some time, a few days, begin work slowly , no jumping for a few more days...come back slowly and see where you are.

norcalammie
Dec. 31, 2009, 10:29 PM
Fix the thrush first as sore feet can lead to other problems if not resolved. Just think how out of alignment you are when you are wearing a pair of shoes that hurt your feet! You are asking him to work and his foot is sore so other symptoms are showing up - just like when you have to continue to walk in shoes that are hurting your feet.

PNWjumper
Dec. 31, 2009, 10:31 PM
Hey Mac, I've been meaning to e-mail you, but got kind of caught up in this moving-to-NC job thing! I told you that I'd been having on-again-off-again issues with Billy and they sound kind of similar in presentation. The final straw with Billy was my last ride before my chiro and her mentor came out. He started kicking out something wicked when he was cantering to the left. Which isn't "crazy" with my TB in the winter except that it was ONLY to the left and it wasn't bucking, it was a weird little stabby kickout to the outside with his right hind like something was tight in his back and he was trying to work it out.

My "voodoo" body worker finally worked on him last week and told me that Billy (with similar symptoms) is having problems with his....crap....now I'm going to forget what the ligaments she was talking about were.....annular ligaments? Basically the pastern/fetlock region in his hind legs....she had me use Topoionopatches (or ionotopopatches or something to that effect) right above his fetlocks on both hinds. Sorry, I'm just a wealth of non-information after several drinks on a freaked out and somewhat celebratory night! :lol:

My regular vet/body worker was a little annoyed with her because she said that she's been diagnosing a lot of horses with the same thing lately. But my voodoo lady (who's also my vet/chiro's mentor) has a LOT of experience with NQR horses and I don't ignore anything she says.

Anyhow, my Billy horse went through a weird period of irregular 3-legged lameness (some days he was 100% sound, other days he was literally 3-legged lame). We put pads on his front feet because seasonal soreness that comes with the rain deluges of fall hit first, and that helped a lot. But then he was a little off behind and a little back sore. My chiro brought her mentor out and they decided that he'd flip-flopped his weak pelvis side, and fixed that. And then my body worker added that she felt that his annular ligaments were tight and had me put on a topo-ionopatch (again, can't remember the exact name). Basically it's a charged patch where you put a positively charged liquid in one side and a negatively charged liquid in the other and then leave it on for 24-48 hours. My voodoo body worker swears up and down to this treatment and has suggested that I do it weekly for Billy. I don't know if the patches made much of a difference, but something about what they did had him back to 100% a few days after they worked on him (they also did chiro, acupuncture, electroacupuncture, and then the requisite "voodoo" work :lol:).

Anyhow, it's just a thought. I was also stressed out about the fact that it was presenting like it could have been a hind suspensory (complete with the lame-when-the-right-hind-was-on-the-outside symptom). I know how up on body issues you are, so I'm guessing that it's not a simple hock-soreness issue or SI issue (which would be my first guesses for anyone else). FWIW, Billy presented in a "sudden" way too. He was going GREAT at the end of the season and then one day he just wasn't quite right. I blew it off for a little while and spent much time watching him on the lunge (his TB side comes out in the fall/winter and I lunge him before I ride if he's had a day or more off) wondering if I was seeing things or if he was really off. Now that he's back to 100% I can say with certainty that he just wasn't using his hind end correctly. His hind end was just a little more "stabby" than usual.

Anyhow, that's my two cents on the issue. Of course it could be something more accute than a tightening of the annular ligaments, but it's something worth looking at. My voodoo body worker seems to think that it's something that a lot of TBs suffer from (moreso than warmbloods anyhow).

Good luck and I'll e-mail you with my fitness plan for my mare as soon as I have a few minutes to think out my response.

Happy New Year! :)

jjmacw
Dec. 31, 2009, 10:33 PM
Sounds weird but I would check mouth (teeth)and ears.
I also agree to check Lyme disease. Had a mare that was fine one day and next was totally off in front.

WishIWereRiding
Dec. 31, 2009, 11:06 PM
I think that you should get the thrush problem resolved, and if he is still off, think about doing a full body bone scan.

superpony123
Jan. 1, 2010, 02:15 AM
read very quickly (and didnt read other posts) so hopefully i didnt miss something, but here's what came to mind.

1. lymes
2. possible leg injury, maybe pulled a muscle? my pony had similar symptoms about a year ago, and we had a tough time figuring out what it was (obviously vet figured it out quick enough, but we were sure it was lymes. turns out he pulled a muscle or something)
3. saddle fit

get on that thrush asap, though. it can be very painful for them, and i would not be surprised if a number of symptoms dissapear once the thrush is gone.

scrbear11
Jan. 1, 2010, 09:02 AM
I think posts like this are my pet peeve...

Get the vet out. You aren't going to diagnose anything over a forum. If the horse isn't right, and you aren't getting anywhere resting it, advice from people on a forum isn't going to replace the valuable advice from your vet.

Mac123
Jan. 1, 2010, 11:58 AM
I think posts like this are my pet peeve...

Get the vet out. You aren't going to diagnose anything over a forum. If the horse isn't right, and you aren't getting anywhere resting it, advice from people on a forum isn't going to replace the valuable advice from your vet.

And posts like this are my pet peeve.

Read the post. The vet has been out and is as puzzled as we are. She sees all of what we think are secondary symptoms, but couldn't find a primary.

WishIWereRiding
Jan. 1, 2010, 12:45 PM
You either need to find another vet, or get some imaging like a bone scan. Or if you don't want to spend the money on that maybe the vet could start blocking either the left front and/or right hind and see what you have.

Mac123
Jan. 1, 2010, 12:48 PM
PNW - the vet/chiro found he was slightly out in the pelvis and SI. Neither of which was a huge *wow* subluxation but of course she adjusted both. While his SI and butt are looking much better - much looser muscularly and swingier through the walk, he's still presenting other symptoms. So I think that was something that's been there for a while (he hasn't been chiropracted in some time) and not the source of this issue.

And while he's sore in both hocks, it's mild and not enough to flex positive at all straight after the flexion. He had a sore hock in the past that flexed positive right away, so I think hock soreness is secondary at this point. I know my joints - hips and knees - kill me whenever my back is bothering me, but vice versus, I know that it can go the other way. Still, a hock soreness that was bad enough to cause other problems should flex positive...right?

The vet didn't recommend injecting just to inject because though he was sore, he wasn't that sore.

Very interesting about the annular ligaments. What's the prognosis for Billy? Is this something that goes away? Does it happen from a specific cause?

Enz has never been identifiably lame on any leg. He looks funny, but not lame. He'll take a bad step here or there, but has done so on all but the right front.

I think my POA is to get the thrush healed and heel area pain-free and see what we have left.

If this whole thing has been from a bad case of thrush I am going to slam my head into the wall. Talk about over thinking things and not starting with the obvious...

What's interesting is that looking back at my notes, he had a bad case of thrush in October that presented as back soreness/saddle fit also. That was in the hind feet, though.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I will hit the thrush first, pull for Lymes if that doesn't clear it up, and then proceed with other diagnostics if that's negative.

PNWjumper
Jan. 1, 2010, 01:56 PM
Very interesting about the annular ligaments. What's the prognosis for Billy? Is this something that goes away? Does it happen from a specific cause?



Hey Mac--

Well aside from the obvious statement that you're a terrible horse mother for not having a vet out (do people even read posts before they make obnoxious statements?!)....

I think you're wise to start with the obvious and treat the thrush. With these pansy-assed TBs sometimes things like that can affect them from nose to tail :lol: And since you mention that his last round of NQRness coincided with thrush in his hind foot/feet, I would definitely suspect that first. And maybe it's a systemic thing where there's more going on than "just" thrush that's making him more sore than your average horse.

As for the annular ligament thing...my bodyworker said that the annular ligament issue is a fairly common affliction (relatively speaking, of course). And that she sees it in horses that have or have had back problems for any period of time. Billy had a completely crooked pelvis when I got him and we've spent the last 3 years working his kinks out SLOWLY but surely. So I think that he qualifies for that quite readily. Basically her feeling is that any tension in the hind end can lead to the horse using its hind legs differently which can manifest in a tightening of the annular ligaments. Over time that can lead to a non-specific lameness in the hind end that doesn't seem to fit any particular pattern.

The way she described it made it sound like a problem that will forever have to be managed, but that it's not necessarily a performance-ender (or even anything that will really affect performance). She suggested that I put the topoionopatch things on Billy (you pour Dex in one side and Sarapin (?) in the other and then adhere them to either side of the fetlock) every week through the winter. She thought that the combo of staying on top of his hind end issues and the patch things would have him going better than ever by the time the spring rolls around.

FWIW, though, my regular vet (who's a brilliant lameness vet) kind of harumphed the whole thing and said that my body worker has kind of gotten into a pattern of "diagnosing" the tightening annular ligaments. She's totally fine with having me do the patches, and she agrees with the need to stay on top of the bodywork (chiro and acupuncture/electro-acupuncture), but just doesn't think that there's that much merit to the annular ligament thing. Of course she also commented that if she didn't know Billy better she would be calling it navicular, and she followed that by saying that she's seen this woman right a LOT more than not, so I guess it's not the diagnosis she would have called, but she admitted that she didn't know what else it was. Personally I don't really care what the issue is as long as I can find a way to manage it in some way that keeps Billy sound and comfortable.

MIKES MCS
Jan. 1, 2010, 03:06 PM
two things come to mind , first, an infection from the thrush has invaded his system, 2nd, and there are two question involved , one where are u located and 2, is he long backed? If you ar in a cold climit and he is long back I would look into maybe flushing his kidneys with harlem oil ( 1 dose ) or methenamine powder in his water for 3 to 7 days .. I say this because it has been my experience that long backed TB's willl show signs of Kidney irritation by suddenly bucking through lead changes and on the back sides of jumps ..many vets will disagree with this conclusion but I've seen too many cases and it used to be SOP on the track to keep horses on bucca leaves as a preventive .. the other option is ulcers , if his routine was put off by missing a couple days it may have caused him slight stress and activated old ulcers. Just my personal thoughts

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 1, 2010, 03:49 PM
Sounds like thrush to me, can you clear that up, put him on antibiotics and bute for 5 days, then see what you've got.
Down here rain rot can cause just about all you've talked about. Keep us informed.

Bogie
Jan. 1, 2010, 04:31 PM
You might also look into why your horse had thrush in October and now again. In the past 8 years my horses have gotten thrush a grand total of once and that was over the summer, right after I moved him from a muddy pasture to a drier one. Same property, same 24/7 turnout, same care.

There may be something systemic going on.

My vet always tells us to start by treating the obvious and if that doesn't work, go to more sophisticated diagnostics.

I'm not very into the "voodoo" treatments. Actually, I think many chiropractors are a bit out there ;). There are plenty of ways to spend money treating horses, trying to decide which ones make YOU feel better rather than HIM feel better is the challenge.

Those patches sound too way out there for me. How much do they cost?

Mac123
Jan. 1, 2010, 05:00 PM
You might also look into why your horse had thrush in October and now again. In the past 8 years my horses have gotten thrush a grand total of once and that was over the summer, right after I moved him from a muddy pasture to a drier one. Same property, same 24/7 turnout, same care.

Our weather has been really trashy (just outside St. Louis). We have had a ton of rain and it is always humid. Thrush is pretty common here in just about any management system because it is so wet. The shavings hold moisture; the paddocks stay middy. Just as the feet begin to dry out, it will rain again and the whole process starts all over again.

His stall is not as clean/dry as it should be and I have been lax about re-cleaning it after the stall workers do. So I began the re-cleaning routine today.

I am anal about his care...but haven't been as on top of his feet lately as I should have. In this weather, if I miss one day of treating his feet they can get soft again, and two days the thrush can come back.

But all in all, most horses I've run across in our Midwest region have some degree of thrush, so it's really not uncommon, particularly in the winter.


two things come to mind , first, an infection from the thrush has invaded his system, 2nd, and there are two question involved , one where are u located and 2, is he long backed? If you ar in a cold climit and he is long back I would look into maybe flushing his kidneys with harlem oil ( 1 dose ) or methenamine powder in his water for 3 to 7 days .. I say this because it has been my experience that long backed TB's willl show signs of Kidney irritation by suddenly bucking through lead changes and on the back sides of jumps ..many vets will disagree with this conclusion but I've seen too many cases and it used to be SOP on the track to keep horses on bucca leaves as a preventive .. the other option is ulcers , if his routine was put off by missing a couple days it may have caused him slight stress and activated old ulcers. Just my personal thoughts

:lol: SNORK!!! Being along the I-44 corridor, where meth is very prevalent, my friend read that as "methamphetamine." Lol, he probably wouldn't feel the thrush anymore if we put meth in his water!

Anyway, he is not long backed, but that is interesting about the kidneys. He does tend to be ulcery and I keep him on U-guard as a preventative (which has worked really well for him).

What are bucca leaves? How much is fed?


Hey Mac--

Well aside from the obvious statement that you're a terrible horse mother for not having a vet out (do people even read posts before they make obnoxious statements?!)....

I think you're wise to start with the obvious and treat the thrush. With these pansy-assed TBs sometimes things like that can affect them from nose to tail :lol: And since you mention that his last round of NQRness coincided with thrush in his hind foot/feet, I would definitely suspect that first. And maybe it's a systemic thing where there's more going on than "just" thrush that's making him more sore than your average horse.

I know, I swear the reading comprehension on this BB is awful. :winkgrin:

While he is named "Enzo," which should be big and strong, he is as temperamental and high maintenance as a Ferrari....so being so funky from thrush is definitely a possibility!!

After doing some reading, I'm not sure the annular ligament constriction fits with E. He doesn't exhibit the visual signs that are described in some articles, and his back issues are quite recent to this case. Incidentally, I was actually expecting the chiro to find some things in him just because all the horses I've had have had such big chiro issues, but he only had 2 things out and then only slightly so. His whole neck and back had nothing out at all. I wish I was so lucky!! But I will keep the annular ligament thing in mind; it was not at all on the forefront of my thoughts so I appreciate learning about it.

UPDATE:
Soooo...today I went to treat the thrush and got my penicillin stuff. Went to put it in the central sulcus and the tip of the syringe just kept going in deeper and deeper. The thrush has eaten in so far that the 3/4 inch tip of the syringe was fully inserted into his foot. :eek: I think it could go deeper if the syringe tip was longer.

I feel SO bad, but literally, from looking at it you cannot tell it is so bad! My farrier even missed this - while he said to address the thrush more aggressively, neither of us realized that the central sulcus had been so compromised. I never would have realized if I hadn't gone to squirt in the penicillin. The crack is so tiny I would not have thought anything could fit in, and the penicillin syringe is much tinier than most syringes which is why it fit.

I HAVE been treating the thrush for about 2 weeks, although not aggressively or consistently, because I didn't think it was that bad. We treated the heck out of it today!!!

Looking at him closer on the longe today, he is definitely uncomfortable on that left front...so I am really hoping that this whole thing is from that...and feel SO stupid for not realizing it sooner.

His heels all the way around are also sore, I'm sure from walking on the frozen ground. Incidentally, the right hind heel is the worst.

So maybe this is a combo of bad thrush and sore heels from the frozen ground?

I don't think the thrush is systemic because he isn't running a temp and doesn't have any heat or swelling going up his legs...is there anything stronger than penicillin to treat thrush with?

I am debating on wrapping it in vetwrap but don't want a wrap to hold the moisture in. All the same, it would keep the foot protected from any stall wetness.

PNWjumper
Jan. 1, 2010, 05:30 PM
I'm not very into the "voodoo" treatments. Actually, I think many chiropractors are a bit out there ;). There are plenty of ways to spend money treating horses, trying to decide which ones make YOU feel better rather than HIM feel better is the challenge.

Those patches sound too way out there for me. How much do they cost?

I'm just as skeptical as the next person about "voodoo" stuff. If I hadn't watched my horses walk off from being worked on by this woman COMPLETELY different than when she started I wouldn't buy into what she says as much as I do. My vet and I kind of laughed about the patch, but I will say that my horse was lame before they worked on him and 100% sound when they finished. I don't know if it was the chiro work, the patches, or some combo of the two, but it wasn't an un-obvious difference.

I trust my vet and this lady about a thousand times more than any other bodyworker/vet/whatever else out there. And strictly because I've seen them make night-and-day differences in single sessions with my horses. I consider my mare's transition from a topped-out-at-3' horse to a successful AO/4'6" jumper almost entirely thanks to my chiropractor's work (in conjunction, of course, with a great conditioning program, good farrier work, etc.). So my feeling on chiro, acupuncture, massage, etc. is that there are a handful of REALLY GREAT workers out there who can completely "make" a horse with their work. But I think that most of them don't do much, and so when I find the good ones I do whatever it takes to keep them coming back!

Anyhow, the patches are certainly on the fringe of my acceptance level....I'm not sure that I really buy that they'll make a huge difference on my gelding, but I figure it's worth a try. It's not terribly expensive.....I haven't looked them up yet, but considering she gave them to me for free this time, I would imagine that they're pretty cheap. And then a bottle of Dex and a bottle of Sarapin total maybe $150+??? If I did it every week for the next 5 months I would need a bottle of each and the total cost was somewhere around $200 if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I had my vet and the bodyworker out right before I flew to DC to go through the final rounds of interviews for a promotion in my company and the ensuing MADNESS involved in transitioning to a new position and moving 3000 miles away has made my brain pretty much worthless for anything else. I have it all written down on the wrapper from one of the patches and I'm hoping my husband didn't throw it away while I was out of town.

Anyhow, that's my thought on the whole thing.

Mac--it sounds like you've figured out what's going on with Enzo. Billy's first problem this fall was related to the wet weather and his soft feet. He went through a weird sound to 3-legged-lame back to sound period repeatedly over the course of a couple of weeks. My farrier didn't think his feet were *that* soft (he'd seen much worse), but the minute we put pads on him he was great up front (and that's when I noticed the hind end thing). I hope that the penicillin clears up the thrush for you soon. I've been lucky (KNOCK ON WOOD) that my horses haven't had to deal with much thrush despite being in such a wet environment, but we did go through the wringer with 2 of them with rain rot this year (for the first time ever). I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to just be less in tune with the soundness of mine. Sure would cost a lot less to not "need" my chiro or vet for nearly as much :lol:

All I can say is thank god I've FINALLY got my fragile TB back to sound! It's funny because I'd rate him (overall) as a very sound horse, but we've had a strange run of little things over the last couple of months (starting with his freak-out coming out of the trailer this fall that cost him about a quarter of his star/forehead). Hopefully the same can be said for Enzo and you'll have him on track to start showing this spring because it's about time you got him out and about!

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 1, 2010, 07:47 PM
OMG, I forgot what just happened to one of my horses that may/or may not help you!

We too have had terrible rain and my Hano got an abscess in his FROG! Where you'd normally see thrush! And he was lame, obviously, called the vet found the abscess and had farrier cut it out, it was so scary because it was so deep like yours, we could put a syringe is sooo far.
after a couple of days off AND antibiotics he was much better and 2 weeks sound again, but I was worried to death the entire time, because it seemed so deep,and could get infected and seemed like it should take a very long time to heal and grow out again, but it didn't.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 1, 2010, 07:50 PM
UPDATE:

"The crack is so tiny I would not have thought anything could fit in, and the penicillin syringe is much tinier than most syringes which is why it fit."

Ditto for my guy!

ifiwereyou
Jan. 1, 2010, 08:03 PM
I was leasing a TB for the last 2 years, and at the beginning of last summer he was very footsore in the back end and also was not moving as "himself", especially in the back end, ie: his auto changes were bad, strange shuffling in the back end, etc...

At first his owner thought that he had an abscess and we were treating it as such until our farrier came out to look at it.

Turns out it was thrush (sounds about as deep as yours... we could fit almost the whole tip of the antibiotic syringe into the surprisingly deep hole) and basically it had infected deep into the frog.

After it was treated, and thrush was prevented to grow back until the hole grew out, Frank was fine and his weird back end shuffling was gone.

I would get the thrush treated, and then get the chiro/massage out to fix any damage caused by a tight and short hind end.

In the situations when Frank's thrush would flare up his gait would be just "off" ... not broken but not right (just a little short), which sounds like the type of issues you had at first. I'd imagine moving shortly to baby the thrushed foot would cause some strain in your horse's back.

Good Luck!

shawneeAcres
Jan. 1, 2010, 08:28 PM
The thing sthat come to mind are PSSM, EPM, hock soreness, suspensory and teeth. We had a young horse that suddenly began to act very similar, bucking, generally unhappy, I couldn't figure it out. Had vet out and he had hooks on his teeth and a mouth ulcer! that was causing all the "lameness" type behavoir. So one just never knows. Treat the thrush and then have vet rexamine

Mac123
Jan. 1, 2010, 09:26 PM
Summit Springs Farm, I just talked with my farrier and he believes that there was/is an abscess in that frog!!!

He said that three days ago that "cavern" wasn't there and that he must have had an abscess that blew in there. Which makes sense - the typical thrushy signs have cleared up, which is why I didn't think the thrush was that bad.

Now, if he could have only just been LAME on that foot, maybe I would have started there. No, he cannot present anything normally...You'd never guess he had an abscess. Thoroughbreds are weird. :rolleyes:

Shawnee, I keep him on a low starch/high fat diet (all my horses on that regardless). He has already had EPM and the presentation is completely different than his EPM presentation. He probably does need his teeth done...and if the mild hock soreness doesn't clear up after he's moving normally again, we'll rethink the hocks too. Thanks for your thoughts.

MintHillFarm
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:10 AM
I have a horse that has something wrong with it and we cannot figure out what it is. ANY thoughts are appreciated!!!

Original presentation: Horse had had two days off (due to a muscle spasm in my back). He had been going fabulously. First ride back was argumentative and quick. I originally thought he was fresh but began to realize he wasn't right and must be sore somewhere.

He was tight through the back, a bit quick, and snarky when using the right rein. Over fences, did not push off the ground and was weak on takeoff. Toward the end of the ride he began bucking or kicking out when I used the right rein or during the left canter transition.

Day two: Very backsore, felt NQR at all under tack. "Offness" was moving around - felt it up front and behind. Pulled the saddle and he was very backsore.

Day three: Realized the left front frog had considerable thrush and was very sore through the frog and heel.

I gave him about a week off and while he looked better on the longe line, he was still presenting under saddle. Below is a total list of symptoms, listed in order of thought as they spring to mind.


Symptoms:

Backsore - more towards the back of where the saddle lies (last thoracic, first lumbar) but is sore all through the saddle area.
Funny on the right hind
Hot stifle and hock points
Flexes positive on each hock ONLY on the outside of a turn - he is sound on the straightaways immediately after the flexion and only positive through the turn on the outside hind
Thrush in left front frog - considerably sore in the frog and heal bulbs
Funny on left front
Bucking through transitions and after landing after low fences
Worse when weightbearing - the heavier the rider, the worse it is
Will not connect over the back - there is no continuation of energy. He is quick tempoed, doesn't use his back, and does not stretch out and down. No elasticity.
Snarky
Generally bodysore
Cannot do a right-left leadchange under saddle or at liberty. He will swap up front but not behind. He has difficulty with undersaddle changes, but has always been able to do them at liberty with ease.
He has had consistent trouble with the right-left change under saddle, which should be his easy direction. Lead change boot camp has not helped, so I know it's physical.


With time off, the backsoreness IMPROVES, the hock and stifle points stay mostly the same.

The saddle fits very well, and while switching to a saddle that has a greater weight-bearing surface did make him more comfortable, he was still bucking through the transitions and jumping. Every saddle pad known to mankind has been tried with no results.

My inclination is that the backsoreness is secondary because it is the first thing to improve with time off but comes back whenever he is ridden. If the backsoreness was primary, it wouldn't improve at all. And no saddle or pad combination make him comfortable.

No heat, no swelling, no identifiable gimp.

I had a vet look at him on Monday who does chiro/acupuncture. She was not able to find anything other than the hot hock/stifle points, the strange flexion result, and that his pelvis and lumbosacral were out of place. She adjusted him and injected the hock points with B12 and gave me a chinese herb (Body Sore) for his body soreness.

He looked great afterwards, but immediately began presenting under saddle.

I am wondering if the sore thrushy left front could cause all of this....if he's holding himself funky to protect that it could cause soreness through the right hind (compensatory) and through the back.

This all happened all of the sudden. He was going great, had two days off, and all the sudden is like this. The vet agreed with my original assessment that he may have gotten cast or fallen in the paddock triggering something....but this doesn't make sense as it is clearly related to being ridden.

I am going crazy and want to keep my hair...any thoughts???

ETA - horse is a 7 year old TB schooling 3'9-4' in grids and 3' to 3'3 courses. Normally relaxed, quiet, excellent flatwork, lovely, powerful jump. Daily turnout in small paddock (not ideal, I know, but it is what it is). Safe choice and lots of hay. No prior lamenesses or issues other than a bad case of thrush behind a couple months ago that left him sore as well.

Test For Lymes!
I had a mystery on my hands too and sure enough, Lymes.
No mattter what else your farrier or vet find, I really suggest you have a Lymes Titer done....My horse had a wound that would not heal; a foot that was changing texture and shape, and all his joints were filling. Luckily his insurance is covering all but the farm calls....

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:31 AM
Interesting...could he have cracked a rib or bruised his back rolling in the stall-maybe even has a fracture in the pelvis that is non reactive to any pressure like poking and probing? Seen that one. Twice. Defied diagnosis until taken to clinic for full body work up.

Otherwise when you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebras and hit the thrush with your farrier. Then think about the possibility of a systemic problem allowing this infection to hang around and get worse instead of better. I'd go ahead and run the blood as well, only tell so much by looking at them from the outside.

If this is not alot better in 2 weeks after digging it out, draining and aftercare? Get a lamness specialist to do a full workup including blocks.

EqTrainer
Jan. 2, 2010, 11:39 AM
Fix the thrush. If the heel hurts, the horse is in serious pain. Particularly when it's on the outside. Which is when you are using the right rein.

Ditto. I have bought some really nice horses for near to nothing because they had thrush or sheered heels and the vet NQR'd them on PPE - for some reason people do not realize that thrush can be painful, fungal infections even more so...

and if that's not it, check for a hind suspensory :(

Mac123
Jan. 2, 2010, 02:50 PM
Interesting...could he have cracked a rib or bruised his back rolling in the stall-maybe even has a fracture in the pelvis that is non reactive to any pressure like poking and probing? Seen that one. Twice. Defied diagnosis until taken to clinic for full body work up.

Otherwise when you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebras and hit the thrush with your farrier. Then think about the possibility of a systemic problem allowing this infection to hang around and get worse instead of better. I'd go ahead and run the blood as well, only tell so much by looking at them from the outside.

If this is not alot better in 2 weeks after digging it out, draining and aftercare? Get a lamness specialist to do a full workup including blocks.

In the pelvis fractures you saw were they just NQR or actually lame?

I'm not beyond thinking this is a couple different things. For all I know, he DID get cast/fall or something which triggered a muscular issue and that coincided with the painful thrush and abscess, making matters worse.

At the same time, unless it's something that isn't found with the usual chiro/body workup, he wasn't messed up enough in his body to really cause all of this. What the chiro found was more on a maintenance level and not an "omigosh here it is this is so painful no wonder" level. Which is actually what I had been hoping for...

Treating the thrush/abscess pretty aggressively. He is more comfortable today which gives me hope that this is it. Of course it's 5 degrees with a negative windchill, so then there's the frozen ground to contend with. I've got him in a stall for a bit to make sure his feet don't get any more sore from the frozen ground...hopefully it will get warmer soon.

Summit Springs Farm
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:01 PM
Mac123 I'm sorry but glad it was an abscess, I could not believe it, the same thing, lame, vet came out, couldn't find anything other than sore foot,thinking abscess, soak, wait etc. then farrier came out and dug it out, it was huge and I had never seen anything like it. In the frog!!!

My hano is very laid back, but if he wasn't I'm sue he'd have had the other symptoms to follow,as limping around and compensating for a sore foot can cause all kinds of other problems, I agree the whoever said get the chiro/massage person on him.

Good job looks like you are on your way to recovery!:)

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:10 PM
In the pelvis fractures you saw were they just NQR or actually lame?


NQR and NOT lame. Unfortunately. If they were lame it would be alot easier (and cheaper). Just all sorts of issues as they compensated for pain nobody could find.
Ummm...not going to get any warmer around here for about 10 days according to the advance forcasts. you say he is more comfortable today after being in?

Maybe stall rest would be in order with some hand walking? He may just need more time to recover from the infection and whatever else may be going on.

And I do think there is something else going on and a hind suspensory can be a devil to find and cause all sorts of problems everywhere BUT the affected leg. So can Lyme and EPM.

If that abcess has really gone deep, might want to get him on some antibiotics. It is probably no coincidence you had abcess trouble in the fall. Not ringing the alarm bell just yet but don't wait too long if this does not clear up

Mac123
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:48 PM
He is better today, but I cannot say that it is because of not being turned out as he was kept in yesterday too due to the weather.

Normally I would be groaning about them not going out but under these circumstances I'm thinking it may not be such a bad thing.

He got longed lightly yesterday just for some exercise and handwalked today as the footing was too frozen (even inside!) to make me want him to do any more than walk.

I have sulfas, and if he doesn't improve within a day or so I will start him on the antibiotics. I hate using antibiotics...so I usually wait until it's totally necessary.

I really think that there's 2 things going in the feet - thrush/abscess, but also heel bruising from the frozen ground. There's been so much moisture in the paddocks that it got rutty and then froze. I think it would be owwy for ME, so I'd think it would be responsible for the sore heels he has all the way around...

Though I would like to avoid words like "suspensory" and "pelvic fracture," ;) if he doesn't improve 100% when the thrush clears up I will definitely examine these things. I would have never thought of pelvis issues...would have thought they would be evident in a simple examination.

Horses. SO complicated sometimes!! :rolleyes:

PNWjumper
Jan. 2, 2010, 07:53 PM
Horses. SO complicated sometimes!! :rolleyes:

Amen to that! :lol:

I pulled out my TB today and lunged him and then rode him and he looked and felt better than he ever has at any point in his life. So I've been banging my head against the wall with all of the "incidents" this fall/winter, but in the end the extra attention from my vet and body worker have been well worth it!

I think that the abcess/thrush and frozen ground sound like a reasonable combo to produce what you've described. Hopefully that's all it is!

tidy rabbit
Jan. 2, 2010, 09:03 PM
The vet started with blocking one of the front legs, which made no difference. He moved to the left hind, and when he got to the suspensory insertion at the hock, he was sound. And the ultrasound later showed a big, bad injury.

Same with my mare. She had front feet problems due to the farrier and thrush, in compensating for the problems up front she over loaded her hind end and pulled both hind suspensories. She went from being a super fun reliable level 5 horse to retired. What a shame. If only I'd known then what I know now about feet. :(

ETA, she's also a serious stall kicker, fence kicker, kicker in general, so that doesn't help the situation.

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 09:15 PM
Mac, it's fine to use alternatives and all but sometimes it is really just wasting time. If you have the sulpha (smz?), go ahead and give them in an appropriate dose for the appropriate length of time. You know he does have a bacterial/fungal infection with that thrush and you know he has been unable to fight it. And get it dug out, drained and packed. These things can go systematic and give you alot worse of a problem faster then you'd think.

And Tidy has a point about the thrush and bruising throwing the balance off to the hind at the expense of the suspensories...and ice is NOT soft, just like rocks. I'd keep him off it until you get some answers and he shows some progress.

You may want to investigate rim pads or pour ins if he is bruised-and I really would keep him quiet, preferably in and hand walked. Last thing you want is him compensating by overloading something else.

FineAlready
Jan. 3, 2010, 03:31 PM
Only skimmed the first page of this thread, but didn't see this mentioned. I'm wondering if your horse could have gotten cast and torqued a bunch of stuff in the process? I've seen it happen before, though usually they are a little scraped up in addition to being body sore. This could also possibly explain the thrush if he sustained a minor injury to the frog that allowed bacteria to enter and start the thrush.

This could be way off base, but thought I'd put it out there. Doesn't really explain what the injury could be, just a hypothesis for what could have caused it.

WishIWereRiding
Jan. 3, 2010, 03:35 PM
Same with my mare. She had front feet problems due to the farrier and thrush, in compensating for the problems up front she over loaded her hind end and pulled both hind suspensories. She went from being a super fun reliable level 5 horse to retired. What a shame. If only I'd known then what I know now about feet. :(

ETA, she's also a serious stall kicker, fence kicker, kicker in general, so that doesn't help the situation.

Yup. In my case I think my horse was in so much discomfort from the hind suspensory injury that he was overcompensating in front, and everywhere else! And often with hind suspensory injuries there is no heat or swelling anywhere.

Mac123
Jan. 4, 2010, 10:23 AM
Same with my mare. She had front feet problems due to the farrier and thrush, in compensating for the problems up front she over loaded her hind end and pulled both hind suspensories. She went from being a super fun reliable level 5 horse to retired. What a shame. If only I'd known then what I know now about feet. :(

ETA, she's also a serious stall kicker, fence kicker, kicker in general, so that doesn't help the situation.

Hmm. What is interesting about this horse is that his feet are in excellent shape and balance and he is also very fit - worked 5-7 days a week for 40+ minutes. He's not a kicker at all. That's why my gut is saying it isn't suspensory simply because it's not the logical candidate.

We have had a couple come up with suspensories lately, but one was coming back off a 2 mo. rest from EPM with poorly shod hinds and the other was fat as a cow and out of shape with poorly shod hinds - those are usually the ones I see come up with suspensories.

However, I didn't make it out yesterday but if today he is not significantly improved with the packing that's in there and the stall rest, then it is time to move to more serious options, like suspensory. :no: I really hope it's not that.


Only skimmed the first page of this thread, but didn't see this mentioned. I'm wondering if your horse could have gotten cast and torqued a bunch of stuff in the process? I've seen it happen before, though usually they are a little scraped up in addition to being body sore. This could also possibly explain the thrush if he sustained a minor injury to the frog that allowed bacteria to enter and start the thrush.

This could be way off base, but thought I'd put it out there. Doesn't really explain what the injury could be, just a hypothesis for what could have caused it.

That was actually our original theory about what happened. He is blanketed from head to toe which would keep him from getting scraped up...Since this originally manifested in the body soreness with no apparent reason, this or slipping in the muddy paddock makes sense, as does the thrush (which I was ignoring because I didn't think it was as bad as it was. Bad, I know.

The other thing in here is the now frozen ground...it went from muddy slop to rock hard overnight and has stayed that way.

I'll let you guys know how he is this afternoon...waiting for it to warm up. It's 3 degrees right now. :eek: Yay.

Claudius
Jan. 4, 2010, 10:39 AM
" NO FOOT, NO HORSE !" FIX THE FEET.

findeight
Jan. 4, 2010, 10:54 AM
That's why my gut is saying it isn't suspensory simply because it's not the logical candidate.


Maybe on Vulcan. Here on Earth there is no logic about which ones get suspensories. Including well treated, well fit, well shod, well behaved non kickers. Been there, got the tee shirt and the bills. Not always something to be blamed as a cause.

It's always possible any horse comes to you sound but has a previous suspensory issue that was undisclosed or, more often, unknown and never properly diagnosed hence never properly healed. Most of these never really were lame, just a little NQR at times. Something happens, like getting cast in the stall, and tweaks it enough to aggravate it.

Just one other quick example. Know of one that went thru all kinds of NQR and vague issues with various body parts. Could find nothing and this went on for many months. Finally hauled him down to a state of the art clinic for a full lamness evaluation with blocks. Horse had a hairline fracture of the front cannon and was not sore enough on it to appear off but compensated to the point he got sore everywhere else. Healed fine with 6 months stall rest and 3 months slow rehab.

Not picking on you, Mac. But others read these threads about phantom lamness/soreness. You really cannot rule anything out.

tidy rabbit
Jan. 4, 2010, 11:08 AM
We have had a couple come up with suspensories lately, but one was coming back off a 2 mo. rest from EPM with poorly shod hinds and the other was fat as a cow and out of shape with poorly shod hinds - those are usually the ones I see come up with suspensories.

My mare was none of the things you describe. She was actively competing at level 4 & 5 USEF AA rated jumpers. She was hardly a fat cow or out of shape or poorly shod behind, up front was another story. She had too much heel as she was chronically sore from the thrush. The farrier didn't address the heel / thrush and didn't discuss it. Instead he tried to keep the horse sound through corrective shoeing rather than just addressing the thrush. And the vet wanted to do injections of her coffin joints instead of addressing the seriousness of thrush. Thrush can make a horse quite lame, and sore but I'm sure you know that.

She did have a mild chronic case of thrush up front that was not properly addressed and that caused a great many problems, including the hind suspensories. Add to that the kicking and it was a receipt for disaster.

Good luck with your horse.

Mac123
Jan. 8, 2010, 11:15 PM
Just a quick update for all of you who shared your thoughts.

It does indeed look like this was foot related. As the week progressed, the thrush readily cleared up with the constant and anal treatment but he remained very tender and sore through the frog and heel of his left front. Not only did the central sulcus give way 3/4 inch deep but his heels also sheared.

However, his foot is responding fairly rapidly to all the things I am treating it with. The central sulcus is beginning to heal and fill back in and overall the foot is much less tender.

The best part is that as he gets more comfortable on his left front, I'm beginning to see my old horse again! He is getting his free, elastic movement back that doesn't look wonky all over, his body looks relaxed instead of drawn up, and the muscle soreness is all but gone - and the hock and stifle points aren't hot anymore.

I am waiting until he is 100% on the longe before I even think about getting on....but it looks like we're on the road to recovery.

Still crossing my fingers that the thrush/abscess was the only source and we'll see what happens when he is under saddle again, but what with his progress matching his hoof's improvement exactly, I am remaining hopeful.

Thanks again to all who contributed...hopefully, this mystery is solved.

Mac

LudgerFan
Jan. 9, 2010, 10:04 AM
Why, oh why, can Enzo swell up like a balloon when he gets a SCRATCH, and then when he has a big bad abscess, he's only NQR?

Horses, I swear! :mad: