What the HECK would you call THIS one?!

[TrueColours]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=237568#237568

I think some weird mutation of chimeric is about as close as you would come to defining it ...

Will be very interesting to hear what the genetic tests come back with :)

Has anyone seen anything like this in another breed other than Thoroughbred?

[Thomas_1]

Well I'd call it FUgly

But describing horses is so much easier in the UK

[JB]

Well, Splash is a given, but as for the black and tan, I'd definitely say chimera.

[AdAblurr02]

Ech... shoulda been a gelding. I agree with you, Thomas, Funky hide apart, that is NOT what I'd want in a stallion, regardless of breed.

Chimera is my bet too!

[Stacie]

Well I'd call it FUgly

But describing horses is so much easier in the UK

:lol::lol::lol:

[spacely]

Dye job gone bad? :lol:

Although Thomas' description is a bit more accurate. He looks pony sized.

[SaturdayNightLive]

Looks like Mosaicism to me. Which is the same as a Chimera, so I should probably shut up. :lol:

[Dressage_Diva333]

Dye job gone bad? :lol:

Although Thomas' description is a bit more accurate. He looks pony sized.

:lol::lol::lol:

Ahhh... the true epitomy of breeding for color and color alone. I would guess some sort of Paint X Mustang X ??? something. Ick.

[chemteach]

Dye job gone bad? :lol:



Agreed, I've had a few dye jobs that looked that bad.:D

[camohn]

:lol::lol::lol:

Ahhh... the true epitomy of breeding for color and color alone. I would guess some sort of Paint X Mustang X ??? something. Ick.

The thread link says he is a TB..........

[spacely]

Paint X Mustang X ??? something.He is supposedly a TB but the bloodlines are super secret at this time.... :rolleyes: :eek:

I bet he won't reproduce that color. :no:

[pintopiaffe]

What's weird is the black is in the 'pattern' that should be white in a tobi.

Agree completely he shouldn't get to keep his jewels based on conformation...

But think it's super interesting to see and can't wait to find out the answers to the genetic tests.

[RiddleMeThis]

Hes not tobiano of any sort.

I'm 99% sure hes Chimeric.

[aurum]

How can you judge conformation with no conformational stand up and just pictures that show the pattern and colors of this horse? Conformation you can only judge once this horse is stood up correctly for the eyes to judge conformation!

The rest is a matter of taste. Would not be my cup of tea but I would say Chimera + Splash. The pictures do scream this to me.

[spacely]

It was all a joke anyway. :rolleyes: It's a Paint stallion.

Dear CC Family,

Please don't hate me for I have sinned, and my husband Harry made me do it! My husband has seen me typing on the CC before and I told him that it was a chat forum talking about different colored TB's! Of course he laughed at me!

My confession is............That Harry put me up to saying that this stallion is a TB. He thought it would be funny to get all the CC folks all excited about this .......... well I won't say what he said this horse looked like, but anyways................. here are the facts!!

I have been driving past this horse for years about 20 miles from RHF.
I have been too busy and had no camera with me until today, I had to get to the bottom of it and get information that I thought the horse color world of every breed would appreciate, and maybe come to understand how others like this come about! As you know some horses like this in the past have come with no pedigree, this one does!

When I finally stopped and asked his fairly young male owner who works for a lavish vet in Franklin, TN, that this horse had been possessing me for several years and I had to find the owner and the "scoop" on this horse, he laughed, and said you and everyone else!

He walked me to his truck at the clinic where the stallion resides and pulled out his registration papers. He is registered with APHA # 311,913. He is a 1995 stallion of about 15hands, registered as a sorrel overo. his name is: STETSONS MR BLUE and here is his very interesting pedigree!
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stetsons+mr+blue

He has only sired a handful of foals, but has never reproduced himself. He has produced black/white, brown/white, black medicine hat, and sorrel/white. He is owned by Mr. Brian Blackman of Shelbyville, TN. His ex-wife always wanted him to geld Stetson, but Brian new he was more special than that and never did and never will.

I encouraged him to get his DNA tested, and told him that I would help him get the Kits. I told him Stetson deserves to be "figured out" and published somewhere with the facts, so I am hopefull we will be getting this done.

Well that is RHF's interesting horse joke to bring in the New Year with. We hope you all enjoyed the thought of him being TB, if even for a few hours! I have to believe their are more out there just like him in every horse breed including TB's. Let's just hope folks continue to bring their "finds" into the light, for the whole world to see, they are truely colored gifts!!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26949&start=15

[Thomas_1]

If that's a thoroughbred then I'm a Robert Redford lookalike who trains horses by whispering to them!

[Thomas_1]

How can you judge conformation with no conformational stand up and just pictures that show the pattern and colors of this horse? Conformation you can only judge once this horse is stood up correctly for the eyes to judge conformation!

For sure you're wrong about that. You can see some things a field away! It's why I spend my time getting told off by my wife for driving on country roads looking in fields at other folks stock!

In any event, if you open your eyes and look you can see a heck of a lot from any photo!

I often say that no good horse is a bad colour. You know what though? There's a heck of a lot of bad horses that are good colours. In my opinion the horse in the photo has nothing going for it: poor quality horse AND a bad colour. I sincerely hope it won't be visiting too many mares to see if it produces colour. Of course I don't know what it's done but from it's appearance, it's got nothing going for it.

[TrueColours]

It was all a joke anyway. It's a Paint stallion.


Oh.

Isnt that a strange way to get some attention ... :confused:

[camohn]

Isnt that a strange way to get some attention ... :confused:

Yes.

[Thomas_1]

I'm gobsmacked that anyone would actually think or believe it was a thoroughbred in the first place!

[TrueColours]

Why? TB's come in all shapes and sizes and "looks" as well Thomas ...

Here are a couple of examples ...

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/catchabird.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Colourful_Gambler.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Jinx.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Jewel-Feb07_edited.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/pelousesqueen.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Strawberry.jpg


They dont HAVE to look like someone's perception of what a TB should or shouldnt look like in order to be considered a TB ...

[caffeinated]

TC, if all those horses were brown, they'd look like TBs.

The horse in the OP, no matter what color it is, wouldn't (and I've seen some really oddly conformed TBs in my time)

Pretty sure that's what thomas was getting at.

[Thomas_1]

Why? TB's come in all shapes and sizes and "looks" as well Thomas ...

They dont HAVE to look like someone's perception of what a TB should or shouldnt look like in order to be considered a TB ...

Trust me, I don't need any lessons about TB's from you.

I've lifelong connections with them. I'm even named after my ancestor Thomas Darley. I well know what they should AND SHOULDN'T look like.

Thanks for posting examples of the latter. What a bunch of FUgly looking things those all are! Albeit a couple look like they resemble a t/b..... unlike the one you posted about originally in this thread.

Which I see isn't actually a t/b at all. So there you go then.... I'm not so green as you think!

[Invite]

I wouldn't breed to him, but he reminds me of a fuzzy Black and Tan coonhound!

[Ghazzu]

"How can you judge conformation with no conformational stand up"

Umm, the fact he has a head like a suitcase?

[STABLESWOT]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=237568#237568

I think some weird mutation of chimeric is about as close as you would come to defining it ...

Will be very interesting to hear what the genetic tests come back with :)

Has anyone seen anything like this in another breed other than Thoroughbred?

AND THE GENETICISTS WENT WILD!!!

[Equilibrium]

Alas, mystery lifted! If you go to the original link you will see this guy in NOT a TB!

And a special tip of the hat to Thomas!:)

Terri

[katerenee]

Oh.

Isnt that a strange way to get some attention ... :confused:

I actually think it was pretty darned funny!:lol::lol::lol: And Maybe it was meant to be just that, not some desperate plea for attention. We are just getting over the Christmas holidays and still the New Year to come, so tell me who isn't in need of a good giggle! I know I was and I did so thanks to the prankster.:cool:

[Thomas_1]

"How can you judge conformation with no conformational stand up"

Umm, the fact he has a head like a suitcase?

Tch tch what a mess. I was just sipping at a pre dinner glass of wine. Now I need to go change my shirt!

[AdAblurr02]

"How can you judge conformation with no conformational stand up"

Umm, the fact he has a head like a suitcase?

Well, that, and his bum is about a hand and a half taller than his shoulder.
Even grazing, that's something I'd geld (and I still own a Quarter Horse stallion who DESERVES to keep his jewels).

Sorry Thomas!

[sid]

This falls into the category of those who know nothing about horses who write an ad, and I've seen more than may share of those, saying the horse is 15.7 hh.:lol::lol:

[Ajierene]

Well, that, and his bum is about a hand and a half taller than his shoulder.
Even grazing, that's something I'd geld (and I still own a Quarter Horse stallion who DESERVES to keep his jewels).

Sorry Thomas!

I'm not sure how you see this so definitely. I do think his conformation is almost impossible to determine by these pictures. To many objects in the way (fencing, trees) and not one shows even a foot. For all I know his legs are only 18" high. He surely does not look butt high in this picture:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2203333930105967226GpHxMU
or
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2588751500105967226leMJda


He does look butt high in this picture:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2150599440105967226aYwUdq

But there is nothing that says he is standing or not standing on a hill in either picture. As far as his head goes, I would not judge a horse's conformation, as ability to do the job he was bred/bought for, by size of the head. I do not think his conformation states he looks much like a thoroughbred, but my mare has been called a standardbred and quarter horse before.

This does prove that I was not wrong all those years! There really are tricolor paints!

[Tamara in TN]

Has anyone seen anything like this in another breed other than Thoroughbred?

one of my bays has black spot(s)**...and a white face and some white feet....

** I think that there is more than one...

Tamara in TN

[Cindeye]

Thomas. I think I love you.

" I would not judge a horse's conformation, as ability to do the job he was bred/bought for, by size of the head. "

...from all the pictures posted, it appears that the job he was bred/bought for was to blend in with the trees. I'm not so sure he's even very good at that.

[3Dogs]

moi aussi :):yes:

[VirginiaBred]

Tch tch what a mess. I was just sipping at a pre dinner glass of wine. Now I need to go change my shirt!




:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Beasmom]

I've never been a fan of parti-colored horses. This horse is especially unattractive. The photos don't tell much but they tell me I hate his croup. What I can see of the neck and shoulder is also underwhelming. Has he done anything in performance? I'll bet not. They're breeding him in the hopes that he reproduces that weird coat.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Hold the phone. Which horse are y'all arguing about? The paint stallion at the beginning of the linked thread, or the unlabeled shaggy horse with the big photo in the middle of the thread?
:confused:

[Coppers mom]

Trust me, I don't need any lessons about TB's from you.

I've lifelong connections with them. I'm even named after my ancestor Thomas Darley. I well know what they should AND SHOULDN'T look like.

Thanks for posting examples of the latter. What a bunch of FUgly looking things those all are! Albeit a couple look like they resemble a t/b..... unlike the one you posted about originally in this thread.

Which I see isn't actually a t/b at all. So there you go then.... I'm not so green as you think!

I'm sorry, but WHAT?! This whole thing was just really unnecessarily nasty.

I'm with whoever said you can't judge a horses conformation off these kinds of photos. Angles, surroundings, ground, etc can all do dramatic things in pictures. And how in the world can you tell that the most recent group of horses is fugly when only two of them are stood up in any way shape or form for a conformation shot? The rest are all sprawled out or a head shot.

About the only thing you can see is the color and how some of them are heavier than the average racing TB, which was TC's point. She wasn't saying that these were outstanding examples of the breed, just that they do come in a huge array of shapes and sizes.

[Beasmom]

Hitch, does it matter? They're both kinda unattractive.

[Beasmom]

Copper's Mom, I'm not convinced all those horses in TC's post above are TB's. Catch A Bird is, of course, the caption under the second horse (the "greyish" one) appears to be labeled ASB Thoroughbred. Then there are a couple that look like Mustangs.

I dunno...

You can have papers on the horse, but that doesn't make it a GOOD horse.

[Coppers mom]

Copper's Mom, I'm not convinced all those horses in TC's post above are TB's. Catch A Bird is, of course, the caption under the second horse (the "greyish" one) appears to be labeled ASB Thoroughbred. Then there are a couple that look like Mustangs.

I dunno...

You can have papers on the horse, but that doesn't make it a GOOD horse.
With respect, that's not what the post was about. TC simply said that TB's come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, because they DO. It had nothing to do with the percieved quality of the horse.

Their registration is given solely based on parentage, of course there's going to be a huge amount of variation within the breed. Right now in the barn, we have a TB who's 17.1 with the most hideous jughead you've ever seen. We had a 14.2 hand mare earlier this year too who had the daintiest little arab head. We've also had everything in between. All were registered, and their shape didn't make them any more or less TB. It doesn't matter what one person thinks is a good example of the breed versus another. The fact is that the breed doesn't have a way of enforcing the standard, so you're going to have a lot of variety. There's no reason to get nasty about it and act like the listed horses are awful/not tb's/not up to some standard of what you think is a good one (because different disciplines have different standards).

And why is it that whenever a horse is coarse, hairy, paint, whatever, people assume it's a Mustang? There are coarse, jugheaded, chunky horses in every breed, it's not just a mustang thing.

[citydog]

Hold the phone. Which horse are y'all arguing about? The paint stallion at the beginning of the linked thread, or the unlabeled shaggy horse with the big photo in the middle of the thread?
:confused:

The paint in the beginning.

The other one is an Icelandic, and that pic gets trotted (tölted?) out for oooh-ing and ahhhhh-ing by the color breeders all the time. :rolleyes:

[TrueColours]

Thanks Coppers Mom - my point exactly ... ;)

And the 2nd one in my group? Colourful Gambler who IS a TB, but from Australia and like Weatherby's registers TB's in the UK (and NOT the JC) the ASB (or Australian Stud Book) is responsible for registering them in Australia

The rest of them are all very much TB's, from all over the world, including the "Odd Colours" filly who is by Catch A Bird who is absolutely, totally and genetically a roan even though the JC insists that it doesnt exist in the TB breed ... and she, by the way, is also "ASB" registered and not JC as she is from Australia as well ...

My point was that you cannot look at a picture - ANY picture - and declare that horse to be a XXX breed because of your perceived notion of what THAT breed should look like ... ;)

Here is another case in point to illustrate this further ...

Years ago I placed an ad in one of our National publications with 2 ads for 2 horses I had for sale

Horse #1 was a chestnut Westphalian / TB cross gelding and Horse #2 was a bay AQHA gelding. I attached the following pictures with the ad:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Simba.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Montana.jpg

The publication, without even CHECKING with me, felt that I made a mistake and changed the pictures and verbage to match the other horses description as they looked at the bay Quarter Horse gelding, felt there was NO way he looked Quarter Horse - that he must be the Westphalian. And he WAS a full Quarter Horse - an ex racing one no less - that stood a solid 16.2hh, and had a successful race career at Picov's Downs before I bought him

So - if I posted a picture of him and said "Guess the breed" - I'd bet that no one would have picked full Quarter Horse as their first choice ... ;)

I looked at a 4 year old TB mare earlier in the year who had a head on her like a fur covered mailbox and stood a solid 18hh and looked like she might top out at 18.1hh before she was done growing. The most unfeminine, un TB looking mare I think I have ever seen, with joints on her that would make a Percheron proud and feet on her like soup platters. The ground shook when she moved ... NO ONE would have picked a TB for her either if they saw a picture of her being stood up

So they really do come in all shapes and sizes and colours and while I am impressed that Thomas is related to THE Mr Darley ;) it certainly doesnt mean that he holds the correct answers to everything ... :no:

[Beasmom]

Well, well, I learned something! ASB = Australian Stud Book, not American Saddlebred! (In this case, anyway.)

But you gotta admit, some of those TB's are pretty awful looking specimens. Or not. I don't care. "Color" doesn't make them good or bad, but can make them look better or worse.

[TrueColours]

But you gotta admit, some of those TB's are pretty awful looking specimens.

I most certainly would not disagree with you on that point at all ... even stood up reasonably properly, Colourful Gambler I would never breed to, unless he produced super fast babies and I was strictly looking to produce super fast race horse babies and then I wouldnt really care WHAT he looked like or what colour he was!

And the others arent stood up well and/or are in full winter coats and we all know that even nice horses can look awful if the picture angles are wrong

I was merely pointing out that there are some very unusual looking TB's out there that a lot of people wouldnt believe ARE TB's until they saw their JC papers ...

This mare is my American Iris mare - one of the more unusual looking TB's out there ...


http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Iris-Jul09-5.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/Iris-Oct09-ACC.jpg


TB isnt the first breed that would come to mind looking at her ... ;)

[Beasmom]

Pretty face -- don't like those front legs, though.

[Hip]

*From a broken record...I am on a slow connection, so didn't read through all the replies. If someone has said what I'm going to say, sorry, I said it again...* :lol:

ETA: This is what happens when you're on the super slow connection and your computer stops at the wrong picture. I didn't see the top pictures till I went back to look. But the Icelandic picture is several years old. I've seen it before when people were confused about the coloring and breed.

[egontoast]

Has anyone seen anything like this in another breed other than Thoroughbred?

Look at the head. Why would you believe it was a TB?

[Home Again Farm]

A photoshopped Fugly?

[Stacie]

I looked at a 4 year old TB mare earlier in the year who had a head on her like a fur covered mailbox...

:lol::lol::lol:

[atr]

Thomas, have things changed since I left England 15 years ago? JC registerable TBs used to come in a pretty standard range of solid colours, didn't they?

I've only owned one TB since I lived here, she was a conservative bay gal, so I haven't studied what's registerable in this country. For some unknown reason, I'm finding myself surprised it's different.

[rcloisonne]

The rest of them are all very much TB's, from all over the world, including the "Odd Colours" filly who is by Catch A Bird who is absolutely, totally and genetically a roan even though the JC insists that it doesnt exist in the TB breed ... and she, by the way, is also "ASB" registered and not JC as she is from Australia as well ...
While I have to say that one is that first real roan TB I've ever seen, the JC does register horses as "Grey/Roan". Every one of the so-called roans advertised as such, even on this forum, have been obviously grey.

And he WAS a full Quarter Horse - an ex racing one no less - that stood a solid 16.2hh, and had a successful race career at Picov's Downs before I bought him...
Almost all racing QHs have a lot of TB in them, some nearing 75% but are considered "full QHs". Like with the WBs, the AQHA is a more of a registry than a real breed.

Then too, until the advent of mandatory DNA testing, there were more than a few horses registered even in closed stud books, such as the JC & AHA, who weren't what their pedigrees claimed.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, have things changed since I left England 15 years ago? JC registerable TBs used to come in a pretty standard range of solid colours, didn't they?

I've only owned one TB since I lived here, she was a conservative bay gal, so I haven't studied what's registerable in this country. For some unknown reason, I'm finding myself surprised it's different.

The breed standard for TB's has remained the same for ..... well forever ;)

The t/b is still the fastest horse in the world and its still the most expensive of all breeds and as such forms the basis of the multi-million racing industry. Its still the supreme equine athlete.

Despite many efforts, no-one has been able to develop a faster breed and there's been nothing at all done in the past 100 years to improve the t/b itself - racing times have not become faster, in the same way as human athletes. Records are rarely broken.

It took about 200 years to develop this breed and maximise its potential as a superb racehorse.

Seemingly though some folks might be breeding with the intent on making them worse or different or for colour and in so doing then try to persuade others that the huge variation is just how it is.

There was most definitely a certain amount of luck in its early development and including diarised occasion of Darley Arabian escaping and serving a farmer's mare! However fortunately she was a useful sort and the resultant foal was a cracker.

It was the development of the t/b that led to the real understanding of the part that selective breeding played in producing a purpose bred horse. Sad to say in some parts that understanding never really hit the mark!

In the context of conformation and purpose the T/B is testament to the fact that this is critical and its not chance that the t/b is the fastest breed. Early development meant that they all had to prove themselves on the track and breeding aims were purely focussed on speed.

Up to the early 1800's race distances ranged from 4 to 12 miles and weights carried were up to 170 lbs! And horses earned their places in the finals by running a series of heats. So this meant that the horses had to be mature and endowed with tremendous courage and stamina. They only stood to about 14.2.

Then distances shortened and so the type was changed. They didn't need to be so tough and so were given more warmth and food as well as selected differently to breed and gradually they became taller and faster and in the 19th century their height increased by 6 inches to an average of 16 hands and speeds increased. By the 1850's they'd already reached their zenith for speed and type and there's been little change since then.

So its been developed into several types and all to meet a basic conformation standard. Because after all good breeding is about perfecting type for purpose - not about getting a pretty or unusual colour!:

As a flat racehorse and at their best as 3 year olds over 1 - 1 3/4 miles. Known as "classic" distances.

Then there's sprints - 5 - 7 furlongs. Best suited to horses that mature early and have great speed but little stamina

Races that test stamina are for later maturing stayers. Those are more angular and leggy than the compact sprinters with their powerful quarters. Consequently there are 3 categories of flat race t/b: the sprinter, the classic or middle distance horse and the stayer.

Then there's the fourth category - and my personal favourite - those who also jump. They race in steeple chase also known as point to point or national hunt - so called because originally it was cross country races by gentlemen from one village church (steeple or point) to another and the horses were always hunted too to prove their fitness and ability to qualify for their race. Also including the ones that do hurdle racing. (often used as an early proving and training ground for steeple chasers)

These ones must have stamina, toughness and boldness and an ability to jump exceptionally well at speed.

t/b's are purpose bred for each of the disciplines and hence its why they vary so much in type and temperament but it's to a minor degree in conformation. There are distinct different requirements for each category and they all are recognisable. If they're not recognisable to someone who knows what a t/b then it's just like saying well that's a bad one and evidentially shouldn't have been bred.

And you're right that in the UK and in the rest of the world come to that, the good ones ordinarily come in pretty boring colours: most solid colours.

Every now and again someone has the notion that they can breed something different. Improving on perfection though?! Or even just improving?! NO WAY! I've never seen it.

The evidence is before us. Like I said earlier No good horse is a bad colour and there's plenty of bad horses that are pretty or unusual colours.

Please appreciate that I say this having had, for many decades a stud farm that had some exceptionally nice and well known 'coloured' horses. I well remember someone describing my stud farm in the equine press as a "colour specialist" and me writing to correct them and saying that I needed them to edit the article because it just wasn't what I wanted to be known for or what I aspired to ever be. I aspired to breeding and producing good quality horses with excellent conformation and type to perform at the highest level of potential for their proposed discipline. No matter whether it was a t/b, a Dutch Warm blood, Connemara, Irish Draft or Welsh Pony. The fact it might not be a solid boring colour was irrelevent to me. I see past colour and always want to be able to do that. I ultimately want to see good quality well conformed horses and strived to attain that goal.

[Ajierene]

Wait...

First you state this:

The breed standard for TB's has remained the same for ..... well forever ;)

Then this:
Then distances shortened and so the type was changed. They didn't need to be so tough and so were given more warmth and food as well as selected differently to breed and gradually they became taller and faster and in the 19th century their height increased by 6 inches to an average of 16 hands and speeds increased. By the 1850's they'd already reached their zenith for speed and type and there's been little change since then.

Doesn't the second statement contradict the first? Breed standard always involves height, as far as I know. The mere fact that the breed started out at an average of 14.2HH and evolved to an average of 16HH would be a strong indication to me that the breed standard did change as the years went by.

Also, the breed standards vary at least slightly differently according to the type of racing that the horse is doing. This is according to your statements. How does that not correlate with thoroughbreds coming in different shapes and sizes? Also, are you not accounting for genetic mutations and variations? Not every thoroughbred out of two conformationally perfect thoroughbreds will be grow to be conformationally perfect. Some of these less than perfect thoroughbreds, who can still run faster than their more perfect counterparts, will be bred. This increases the variation of the horse.

[Thomas_1]

^ Try reading again for comprehension and context.

I've done that 4 times with your post but so far .... nah.... not making sense.