OCD for the umteenmillionth time....

[okggo]

I'm looking for a very particular type of broodmare and it's proving quite a challenge. I just got a response back on one noting she had OCD as a foal, but would x-ray clean now. I don't know if that means she had the surgery or it self resolved, but would this drive you away as a broodmare candidate if everything else were perfect?

I know a lot of foals out there with OCD, and as mares - end up in the breeding shed, but I dont' know how much of this is knowingly done (aka if you know your broodmare had OCD as a foal, would you still breed her)??

[Iron Horse Farm]

For me, it's a deal breaker. OCD is not only a feeding-induced problem but it is also a genetically inherited problem. I would say until there is a 100% proven way to determine whether the mare has genetic OCD or poor feeding program-induced OCD, it is best to avoid her (or stallion) for the breeding shed.

well, I guess in a perfect world!

Since the experts still disagree, the fact remains that 40-60% of all WBs have some type of lesions. Only in the US do we scream and run the other way at the very mention of the word. In Europe, some degree of OCD can be acceptable.

Since a mare can be bred to many different stallions, you can't say "oh, she throws OCD" unless she has been bred to the same stallion a dozen times and produced OCD a dozen times. Even then, we are now learning that footing, temperature, length of turnout time, age at weaning and a dozen other factors can contribute to OCD.

[Hillside H Ranch]

For me, it's a deal breaker. OCD is not only a feeding-induced problem but it is also a genetically inherited problem. I would say until there is a 100% proven way to determine whether the mare has genetic OCD or poor feeding program-induced OCD, it is best to avoid her (or stallion) for the breeding shed.

I'm curious to know how many breeders are screening theire mares for OCD, before breeding. I'm betting not very many...

[Iron Horse Farm]

I'm curious to know how many breeders are screening theire mares for OCD, before breeding. I'm betting not very many...

But this is exactly what I'm talking about! You can't "screen" for OCD. You can x ray to see if a mare currently has it. Period. You can't tell if she had it and it resolved or if she had it and it was succesfully removed. Even if you find a lesion, you can't tell how she got it! Was it genetic? Was it from feeding? Was it from early work? Was it from over stressful work? Who knows?

Oh, and your mare can be clear of anything and still have a foal with OCD.

[Dressage Art]

Interesting read. It has several charts from 3 year long study how OCD is relevant to genetics, exercise and feed:
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf

At the last page it has a final chart of 3his breeding study:

From mares with OCD:
Offspring with OCD in % - 27.9%
Offspring without OCD % - 72.1%

From mares without OCD
Offspring with OCD in % -11.7%
Offspring without OCD --- 88.3%

But I would not want to buy or breed a horse with OCD and I will not breed a mare to an OCD stallion. I hope stallion owners are disclosing OCD in their stallion?

[Hillside H Ranch]

But this is exactly what I'm talking about! You can't "screen" for OCD. You can x ray to see if a mare currently has it. Period. You can't tell if she had it and it resolved or if she had it and it was succesfully removed. Even if you find a lesion, you can't tell how she got it! Was it genetic? Was it from feeding? Was it from early work? Was it from over stressful work? Who knows?

Oh, and your mare can be clear of anything and still have a foal with OCD.

By screening I do mean radiographs. Some registries require rads for stallions, of course, for just this reason. People raise holy hell here about OCD in mares, etc., but I wonder how many actually have their mares radiographed? I, myself, don't worry all that much about OCD, b/c as you stated it has so many different causes and we just don't have a good handle on it yet. When people on here state that they "wouldn't use a mare for breeding with OCD" then I have to ask, are you checking your own mares, really????
As far as determining they whys and where-for's of how/why lesions occur; you're right, there are lots of variables. Having just returned from AAEP, where this was a topic of several sessions, there is some newer research being done. Some very good research is showing that if there are lesions in multiple joints, then you are probably looking at either genetics OR a management issue. If you have a single affected joint, it is more likely to be trauma. But you are right, just b/c a horse has an OCD lesions, even if it is genetic, it doesn't always, or even usually, pass that along.
Also want to add that with the quality of digital radigraphs now, you can often tell if an OCD fragment or cysts was removed.

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

The KWPN does offer it's breeders a Predicate of "Elite" or the designation PROK for mares whose x-rays have been screened by a designated University. The "Elite" mares have been xrayed with the same x-ray protocol that the Approved stallions are required to provide. Our Elite mare has two Keur Elite daughters so far, in two different countries, so their is definitely a genetic component to OCD (or lack of it). We are on our third generation with this Elite mare, and her grandson, which just "Passed" his KWPN Stallion Approval with clean x-rays.....

We DO x-ray all of our broodmares AND all of our coming two year olds, to know where we stand. This feedback assists us in feeling more confident in repeating crosses, or whether it would be prudent to try something different.

Certainly the KWPN system has not eradicated OCD, and they are still working on research, but it is certainly a start, esp, considering that some Breed Registries do not even require their stallion candidates to be x-rayed. There are new KWPN Stallion Approval rules that have recently gone into effect, that will actually PUBLICIZE the incidence of OCD in the offspring of these newly licensed boys, including the details., of all of the recently Licensed young KWPN stallions. This info will certainly give us breeders more information in order to make informed and educated decisions.....

Hope this helps!

Warmly,
Karin Jimenez

[Dutch]

I would be leary of a broodmare prospect who had OCD. For a non-breeding performance prospect, if the current X-rays were clean, it wouldn't be an issue.

And yes, for my home-bred mares destined to become broodmares, I get a full set of radiographs, as per KWPN standards. My mareline has yet to have an incidence of OCD and many of the offspring have been radiographed. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[okggo]

Hmmmm, lol. Well current x-rays ARE supposedly clean - she had the problem as a foal - so I'm told, but I can't find out if surgery was every done or it just self resolved. The stallion she is by has hundreds of foals himself that are performing at upper levels of the sport, and her dam has also produced several performers and approved stallions (FULL siblings to the one I'm looking at). All of them standing over seas....

She's got a rather hefty price tag so...this is definitely a huge consideration for me.

Edited to add - wouldn't one have to do x-rays basically yearly until mature to determine if they ever end up with a lesion that self-resolves? For example, if registries started requiring x-rays for all mares to MPT (I think some do now, no?) - all that would say is that the mare (at 3 years old) currently does/does not have OCD, it wouldnt' say anything about if she ever had one....

[Dutch]

For the KWPN, the X-rays for the PROK predicate/stallion approval cannot be done before September of the horse's second year. By the time it is a yearling, either the horse has OCD or does not. Cases which resolve would do so within that first year. This is not to say a horse cannot develop chips after the second year, but they are not technically OCD from what I understand, but trauma related. Also, OCD in the hocks has a much better surgical outcome than OCD in the stifle.

I have wondered as well whether sometimes a yearling could get chips removed without it being detected later as a 3 year-old. The study the KWPN has been doing involves following the offspring as foals on up, so it would not be possible to do this.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Hmmmm, lol. Well current x-rays ARE supposedly clean - she had the problem as a foal - so I'm told, but I can't find out if surgery was every done or it just self resolved. The stallion she is by has hundreds of foals himself that are performing at upper levels of the sport, and her dam has also produced several performers and approved stallions (FULL siblings to the one I'm looking at). All of them standing over seas....

She's got a rather hefty price tag so...this is definitely a huge consideration for me.

Edited to add - wouldn't one have to do x-rays basically yearly until mature to determine if they ever end up with a lesion that self-resolves? For example, if registries started requiring x-rays for all mares to MPT (I think some do now, no?) - all that would say is that the mare (at 3 years old) currently does/does not have OCD, it wouldnt' say anything about if she ever had one....

New research is showing (and this is in regards to NON-traumatic OCD) that if the horse does not have OCD at 18 months of age the chances are very, very slim for it developing later. I x-ray all of my young stock between 18 months and 2 years (those that aren't sold by that age) so I know where I stand in that regard. I had a filly that at 2 years had a tiny chip in one stifle. After consulting with some top orthopedic specialists they advised that 1. it was probably trauma since it was in a single joint, and 2. it was so tiny that we should try a course of Adequan and re-check her in 6 months.
We did indeed do the Adequan and re-check and it was indeed gone. In fact, that stifle looked pristine at that point. I need to check back in my notes, but they did give me some measurements to use as a rule of thumb. If the chip was that size or smaller, then research has shown a very high incidence of self-resolution.
So I guess I might be in the minority, but I think I wouldn't really care if I found out that a young horse had had a chip in the past, but that it self resolved. What's the problem, really?

[Sunnydays]

Wish I could find the research ... but a study done on hundreds of youngsters in the Camargue region of France, x-rayed post weaning (most were about 6 months of age, or just over), showed highest incidence "of some radiographic abnormailty" in Warmbloods. The other 2 groups were Standardbreds and Thoroughbreds. I think the total average was about 65%, with incidence in warmblood foals about 83%.
Of course, the same results would not be found at 18-24 months of age, when growth plates are closer to finishing.
Frankly, I think xrays of 3 and 5 month old foals should not carry much weight. xrays of youngsters less than a year - suspect too. Purchasers can decide where to put their money.

Anecdotally, a local vet who does a lot of pre-purchase exams says she finds something at least 75% of the time (her practice includes all breeds) ... and I have noticed that 75% of horses are not lame ...:)
That said, I'm pretty fussy about breeding mares.... but absolutely don't give much weight to foal xrays.

[Tiki]

For those "OCD lesions" present in a very young horse, that resolve by 2 or 3, there is some thought that these are just development issues and not really OCD. Remember that with digital x-rays, the vets can now see a 'lesion' that is smaller than a grain of rice, that they were NEVER able to see with old fashioned x-ray film, that will never, ever cause a problem. The problem is that they have to disclose anything they see and buyers run screaming from the room if ANYTHING is found.

Even if this mare had a chip surgically removed, but is now clean on x-ray exam, flexion and is sound - especially if in work - would you really turn her down if she's everything else that you like? Even if removed surgically and she's sound, there is virtually no chance of a recurrence and she shows NO other evidence of OCD, so she's basically walking dog food?????

[Lesley Feakins]

With all the research and studies done on OCD's and with the improvements made to feeding and introducing ration balancers, supplements etc. does anyone know if the rate of OCD's have reduced. I know that I am feeding broodmares very differently than I was 10 - 12 years ago, also foals and yearlings.

[okggo]

For those "OCD lesions" present in a very young horse, that resolve by 2 or 3, there is some thought that these are just development issues and not really OCD. Remember that with digital x-rays, the vets can now see a 'lesion' that is smaller than a grain of rice, that they were NEVER able to see with old fashioned x-ray film, that will never, ever cause a problem. The problem is that they have to disclose anything they see and buyers run screaming from the room if ANYTHING is found.

Even if this mare had a chip surgically removed, but is now clean on x-ray exam, flexion and is sound - especially if in work - would you really turn her down if she's everything else that you like? Even if removed surgically and she's sound, there is virtually no chance of a recurrence and she shows NO other evidence of OCD, so she's basically walking dog food?????

I don't think anyone said walking dog food, but I have heard a couple say not breeding stock. My issue is her price tag. As with anything, when looking at horses and having them vetted you have to decide if what is found or disclosed is worth the risk. I'm interested in her as a breeding candidate, and was interested in the possibility of her passing it on, given the circumstances. Sounds like the answer is - nobody knows ;)

[Tiki]

I don't think anyone said walking dog food OK, perhaps a 'kinder' label would be pasture pet. Has this mare been ridden? Has she competed? To what level? Is she sound now? Has she been sound? How was the OCD found as a foal - was the foal lame? or was it a routine x-ray? Was a chip removed or not?

For a horse that sounds like a 'have-to-have' you haven't given nearly enough information to make a decision. Do YOU have the information needed to make an informed decision? Maybe she is a 'don't touch with a barge pole' horse, but if the lesion resolved on it's own, she's sound, she's been sound in work, she's competed and has a good record and all the other stuff. I'd call it a developmenet issue and bring the trailer. A mare without OCD can produce a ton of OCD foals is the right conditions are met - improper feeding of the broodmare from even before breeding, up through parturition, raising, weaning, growing up, improper turnout (or lack thereof), injury.

Of course it's your decision, but it really doesn't sound as if you have enough informtion and are running scared of the big word OCD, as do many, many other people on this board and/or in this country.

You said she's expensive. Either the owner is not very knowledgeable, but possibly very greedy, or the mare has a good record and this is a just a flaw in her background. I know I wouldn't vet sound, but I'm pretty valuable in all that I do and my 'vetting' would turn up much worse than a resolved OCD lesion as a baby.;););):lol:

[okggo]

I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

Has this mare been ridden? Yes, green broke only. I was told by the owner she was trying to sell her as a competition horse at one point, and she did not vet. Again - all the information I am getting is pretty vague.

Has she competed? To what level? No - green broke only.

Is she sound now? I'm told yes - have not done the 4 hour drive yet to find out for myself, trying to decide if it is worth it.

Has she been sound? As far as I no, on and off sound.


How was the OCD found as a foal - was the foal lame? I was told - foal was lame, OCD was in stifle. Supposedly cleared up on its own, but I am suspicious of why she failed the vetting the second go around when she was of riding age.

or was it a routine x-ray? Was a chip removed or not? I was told it "self resolved"

For a horse that sounds like a 'have-to-have' you haven't given nearly enough information to make a decision. I agree :) I'm just deciding if it is even worth the trip to see her, not even close to making a purchase decision at this point (a much more extensive vet check, riding her, and other aspects would weigh into that decision). What I like is her pedigree. I don't like her price and iffy soundness background - and IF there is a chance this may be a problem with her offspring - why not be picky? It's my money :) Horses are a gamble enough without the additional risk.

I do appreciate you weighing in though, if nothing else it's nice to hear both the run-from-OCD and be more forgiving aspects of it in the same thread. Both sides are exactly what I was hoping to hear. I'm still waiting on the owner for clarification on some questions I've posed to her as a result of this thread - so I am quite glad I came on here and asked.

[Home Again Farm]

Years ago I had a buyer xray one of my fillies when she was a yearling. She had a question mark on one stifle — vet thought it might be an ocd lesion. The filly had been kicked in that stifle by another weanling when she was about 7 months old. She was off for a few days after the kick, but was sound at the time of the xrays as a yearling and stayed sound afterward. Buyer passed on the filly and bought one of my mares. Several years later I had another buyer interested in the filly that had had the questionable stifle xray. By then she had been in work for over a year and was sound. New digital xrays showed absolutely clean stifles, so ocds that are on xrays under age 18 months can indeed disappear. She sold and is still going strong years later.

I'd try to get an answer about whether the filly had surgery. If she didn't, I'd assume that the "lesion" was just an odd growing stage and the current clean xrays tell the truth. If she did have surgery, I'd be interested in finding out if she has siblings that are clean. There would be more to weigh in making your decision. It is a hard one, as there are so many variables that can cause ocd, as has been previously pointed out.

I screen all my coming two year olds.

[JWB]

The BWP also has a veterinary screening for it's elite mares. This is the same screening that the stallions must go through but aside from those mares that are pursuing elite status, I don't see it done often in brood mares.

Also, if it is discovered in a mare during the routine screening, she will not qualify for elite status but it does not affect her eligibility in the main mare book.

So little is known about OCD - Yes, it can be heritable, but it can be caused by TONS of other factors too. For me it would be a definite MINUS however not something that would cause me to entirely strike a mare off the list if she had everything else going for her - especially if it was a proven brood mare who had produced sound foals... now if she had 2 or 3 babies, all with OCD, that WOULD be a deal breaker.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Is her pedigree that rare/valuable that the mare is worth $$$ considering that she is a green-broke, on-and-off sound, OCD lesion +/- and essentially unproven horse? It would have to be a hell of a pedigree....
Unless she has offspring out there competing at a very high level...

[Home Again Farm]

The on again off again would be a definite concern.

[Tiki]

Well, now, OK this is a whole different kettle of fish than your original post with minimal information. Has this mare been ridden? Yes, green broke only. I was told by the owner she was trying to sell her as a competition horse at one point, and she did not vet. Again - all the information I am getting is pretty vague.

Has she competed? To what level? No - green broke only.

Is she sound now? I'm told yes - have not done the 4 hour drive yet to find out for myself, trying to decide if it is worth it.

Has she been sound? As far as I no, on and off sound.


How was the OCD found as a foal - was the foal lame? I was told - foal was lame, OCD was in stifle. Supposedly cleared up on its own, but I am suspicious of why she failed the vetting the second go around when she was of riding age. Now, see, with all this additional information, there is no pedigree in the world worth taking a chance on. There MUST be another mare with a similar or just as good pedigree somewhere that IS sound - 99% of the time!

With the right information, the decision is much easier. I wouldn't do it.:no:

[okggo]

Alright - thanks guys. I'm going to pass on the trip and keep hunting...thanks for all the education on OCD, it's greatly appreciated.

[rmh_rider]

I had a QH who got OCD in his hock. I paid $$$$ to have him fixed. He was fixed and was sound. However, I would never want another one ever. Genetic predisposition??? I did not over feed him as a baby. My vet said it was due to a copper deficiency in the broodmare while she was pregnant. That may well be, but still he had it. Not all mares are fed perfectly while bred, so there could be a genetic predisposition.

I got the QH at 4 months. At 1.5 -2 years he was having issues. We waited, injected, then surgery. My arab, who I know I overfed, never developed OCD. His momma had a rough time (starved) in the first parts of her pregnancy, but then was given good food up until foaling time and afterwards. He is now 12 and a horse with lots of endurance miles on him. QH I sold at 7 years, and he is 9 this year.

This would be a huge deal breaker for me. Why breed those genes into it? If you do, your foal could cost you much much much more money than you think. I know what to look for when I look at a horse to buy. The tell tale wind puff looking thing on the hock.

I have seen where a huge young warmblood got it in one leg, then the other, then again in the other, hocks in this case. They can get OCD anywhere in their body. His half brother, same sire, got it in either one or both, I forget.

Start with the best genes you can. Or buy the best young horse you can and raise. You will get exactly what you want when you buy a horse already on the ground. Breed it? It is a total crap shoot.