US Eventing Stallion Rankings And Resource Recommendation

[Robby Johnson]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I couldn't find any stallion rankings on useventing.com or usef.org or via a Google search for sires of YEH competitors.

Here's a similar link from the British Eventing Futurity (http://www.nedonline.co.uk/public/futurity/SireRankings.aspx).

I feel certain this information has to be tracked somewhere, and I'm just missing it. If available, wouldn't this sort of reference provide some sort of criteria regarding performance of progeny? I realize there are many variables and factors that determine if a horse participates in the YEH Program, and that not all mare owners are breeding with the intention of participating in the program, but it might help with credibility when someone asks if a stallion is a realistic producer of event horses.

Also, I just wanted to recommend a program for stallion owners that I have begun using in all 3 of its available scenarios - desktop, web, and iPhone application. It's called Evernote (www.evernote.com) and it's totally free! It does, in fact, allow for organization of all sorts of information via tagging, which is quite honestly the way of the future, and so much more intuitive for the ADHD sort like me. When making the book for any stallion, any year, you might simply create a folder for "2010" and, during foaling season, tag any photos or notes you make yourself or receive from mare owners with information that helps you search easily (i.e. "draft cross eventing TB mare Robby Johnson"). Having information easily accessible in a variety of work scenarios will allow for easier tracking and updating on websites, where many customers will spend a lot of time doing their research. For me, comparatively, it's the bridge between envisioning the perfect filing system that forever escapes me and being able to pull anything out of one of the notorious stacks I create on tables and my desk!

The value of the "ask" in the discussions of the last day or so is valid. And despite the terse nature of the discourse, the applied learning is that MO's will seek this information regardless, and SO's who have it at the ready will only enhance their efforts with as comprehensive a dataset as possible. I had a CEO (a Ph.D. in Behavioral Psychology) tell me once that, even when faced with conflict and uncertainty, you should always come to the table with a proposed solution. Even if it's not the right solution, it's a good practice. It keeps the discovery process active and minimizes the self-destructive hyper-evaluative cycle of waste.

From my circle of Kumbaya, I wish everyone a very safe, happy, healthy 2010!

[JER]

You're not ignorant. The info is hard to find. (I put a PSA up here a few weeks back advising breeders/owners to get UTD with Ken Ball at the USEF on linking their horses to their sires.)

The 2009 USEF Eventing Sires List (http://www.usef.org/documents/points/2009/leadingSires/Eventing.pdf)

(To get to the Leading Sires lists, go to 'horse services' then click on 'Points and Standing' in the right-hand menu. Also, the list is in pdf form now but until a couple of weeks ago, you could click on the stallion name and see the names/results/info on his offspring that earned points. I hope the USEF goes back to the interactive version.)

There are numerous problems with how this information is compiled. For instance, a horse earns the same amount of points for a win at BN as for a win at Advanced. Which means a sire with one horse at BN competing very often will be ranked ahead of a sire with offspring at Advanced who don't compete as often.

Also, to be recorded on the USEF list, the owner has to have the horse recorded with the USEF at the time of the competition. Many, many eventers don't have USEF recording numbers.

And it falls on the current owner/rider, not the breeder, to track the horse in competition. Not all owners know/care about this list or about who sired their horse. Breeders can't easily track them down.

As far YEH/FEH, secretariat posted on here that when the committee set these classes up, some members wanted to make provisions to track horses as they progress in competition but that the committee voted it down. I'm paraphrasing madly here, so secretariat, if you read this, could you please re-explain what happened and why?

But I very much agree Robby, these are important issues.

[Tasker]

Thanks for the link JER!

As an aside - it really made me smile to see Abundance still on that list! He was a 1965!!!! Wow...just wow. Our good friend Sara is still competing his daughter but still that was a long time ago.

I tried to click the link to see the point system for how the stallions get on the list, and it didn't work. Can you please post that link? TIA.

[PineTreeFarm]

For Hunters and Jumpers the horse needs to be recorded with USEF to earn credit for National and Zone points/Year end awards. If the horse has only a HID/USHJA id the results are still tracked and available via USEF Horse Results but those placings are not included in the stallion rankings.

Because of the recording requirements the H/J leading sire lists tend to be more complete. Most individuals will annual or life record their horses in particular because of the zone award ( or USHJA foundation award) system.

[Tasker]

Thanks PTF - I went ahead and emailed Ken as the Eventing Rule Book didn't have a section that jumped out at me with an explanation either...my own curiosity has gotten the best of me, I guess.

H/J & Dressage are the parts I understand...eventing, not so much! :)

I'm curious at what level the offspring are competing to have points count, etc.

[JER]

I tried to click the link to see the point system for how the stallions get on the list, and it didn't work. Can you please post that link? TIA.

When the doc went to a pdf, the link was no longer active. But I found it for you:

http://www.usef.org/documents/points/EventingDressagePointIncrement.pdf
(http://www.usef.org/documents/points/EventingDressagePointIncrement.pdf)

[JER]

Robby pointed to the BE system. France also has an excellent ranking/tracking system via the Haras Nationaux (http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/portail/) for young horses (for breeding and competition).

As someone posted on one of the stallion threads, an SO wouldn't get away with exaggerations in France as all information would be easily verified.

(I have to run to the airport but will post specific pages later.)

[Robby Johnson]

Once again I'm so grateful for your resourcefulness, JER. I nearly called Kenjamin; we've been friends for years and I suspected he'd be the place to start at USEF.

Safe travels and talk soon!

[secretariat]

JER - your memory is pretty good - much better than mine! Slight modification, I never made tracking as a motion so it wasn't voted down - just died for lack of support.

To restate, my original concern wasn't tracking for the best sire, rather tracking to ensure that the objectives of the program were being met although both are complementary. As I remember the original mission statement, both YEH and FEH were designed to identify future 4 star horses - but my confident prediction was that they would identify beautiful, possibly early maturing, predominately warmblood horses that look magnificent at the trot. That was based on dabbling in halter/model classes in quarter horse, TWH, ASB, and 4-H activities. Thus far, I believe I've been 100% correct (at least the trotty warmbloods are winning all the YEH/FEH classes). I'm still looking for those winners to compete at the upper level eventing venues, but in all fairness the program is still in its early stages. I'm not much of a fan of beautiful, magnificent moving horses. I prefer rangy, gawky, big galloping, hard scrapping brawlers who mature late - both I and my horses are mountain bred and pretty ugly; unfortunately, I also appear to be 20 years out of date.

RE: stallion tracking, much of the data has been collected in USEF and USEA data bases (not all, but a lot and getting better). Access to that data, tho, is pretty hard to attain.

[Robby Johnson]

I'm not much of a fan of beautiful, magnificent moving horses. I prefer rangy, gawky, big galloping, hard scrapping brawlers who mature late - both I and my horses are mountain bred and pretty ugly; unfortunately, I also appear to be 20 years out of date.

I don't know why you keep shooting down my marriage proposals.

[JER]

J As I remember the original mission statement, both YEH and FEH were designed to identify future 4 star horses - but my confident prediction was that they would identify beautiful, possibly early maturing, predominately warmblood horses that look magnificent at the trot.

And this is a 100% accurate description of what is happening at the FEH classes. The winners are over 17hh at age 3, with a relatively low percentage of TB blood (or eventing bloodlines) and heavy. If you are looking for a UL eventing prospect, would you choose a horse like this?

I'm not much of a fan of beautiful, magnificent moving horses. I prefer rangy, gawky, big galloping, hard scrapping brawlers who mature late - both I and my horses are mountain bred and pretty ugly; unfortunately, I also appear to be 20 years out of date.

I don't know why you keep shooting down my marriage proposals.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: (this is awesomely funny)

[JER]

Once again I'm so grateful for your resourcefulness, JER. I nearly called Kenjamin; we've been friends for years and I suspected he'd be the place to start at USEF.

Safe travels and talk soon!

Maybe it's a good time to ask Ken Ball if there's any way to enact a more meaningful point system for eventing?

I realize Ken Ball is not responsible for how the system works but he would probably know who the relevant party/committees are.

(Oh -- I'm not going anywhere. Just dropping a friend at the airport. I'm staying put for a few weeks until the fundie-undies outrage settles down. :))

[Sonesta]

Not on topic, but dang, Robby, it's great to see you back posting on COTH!

[secretariat]

Robby - I thought you were proposing a one night stand! Besides, think what the children would look like!

[Robby Johnson]

Who cares what they look like (p.s. I'm totally an improvement sire, btw) ... with your wit and ranginess - as well as my hidden mountain gene (my daddy is from Nelson County, Virginia) - how could they be anything other than the most awesome children ever? Skin a rabbit in their vintage Gucci loafers, honey!

JER, that's a great idea. I'll call Ken anyway. I owe him a catch-up call. And let me know when you get to the warm hinterlands. I need an outlet! ;)

[Portia]

Yep, completely off topic, but glad to see you again, Robbie! I hope all is well with you and yours. :)