Stallion Suggestions for Lovely Black Hanoverian Hunter Mare

[OGF]

First, I know NOTHING about breeding so this is all new learning for me. If I say anything dopey, chalk it up to that, please. We have an imported black Hanoverian mare currently laid up with an injury who I am considering breeding. Sire is Salisbury, dam is Aurora. 16.1 1/2, beautiful jump, nice movement. Excellent large junior horse, working hunters. She would be a fabulous derby horse. Very elegant, very stylish, very brave. Also, very long pasterns which I hope to eliminate in the next generation. She is not heavy and bulky like the old-style warmbloods and is actually sometimes mistaken for a thorobred until people see the brand.

Her passport has been lost in the sales exchange. Everyone thought someone else had it; in the end I didn't get it. I have a certificate of ownership with a couple of generations of breeding shown from "Verband Hannovershcer" and have been told that it is possible to track down any other remaining information. I also have been told by two different people that she was (ok, here's where I really don't know what I'm talking about) inspected and is a premium mare. Again, I will have to track all of that down myself if it is important to me.

There's not a lot (other than the pasterns) that's I'd choose to change about her. Maybe a little more bone and even better movement. I'd like to keep the color and the jump. She's been a bit fragile so a little more sturdiness would be a good thing. Sanity is high on my priority list.

Suggestions of stallions? Questions?

[camohn]

Grandom
http://www.rainbowequus.com/Grandom.htm

[alexandra]

Be happy that you have the certificate (in Original ?). With that it is very very easy to get a new passport from the Verband in Germany. Also the complete information on pedigree and maybe archievements in the past is easy to obtain. What is the damsire of Aurora ?

If you want to, send me via PM the lifenumbers of dam (43131xxxxxxx) and granddam from Cert.of.O and maybe her breeder, maybe I find something on her and or relatives.

[OGF]

alexandra

I think your message box is full. The last pm I just sent couldn't go through.

[Foxhound]

Ruffian
Very good mind, and several of his offspring show jumping talent.

http://www.oldenburghorse.com/book/stallionlist10.htm

http://lgfsporthorses.com/10001.html

[sid]

Do you have any pics of her? My imported Hanoverian stallion, Argosy, might be a good match, but couldn't really say without pics. He's creating lovely hunters/jumpers and he has a superlative jump himself (and he's black..;)).

I'd need to check the mare's damline as she is also an A-line. Please know that I let his license expire, however. If that is critical, you might want to check out Argosy's son, Amadeus, who is approved with the ISR/Old NA.

[OGF]

sid
New computer so I need to get picture files in so I can send some.
In the meatime, the dam, Aurora, is by Augustinus xx out of Desna. Other names on the dam's side are Kronzeuge xx, Akita xx, Derneburg (Hann) and Abdiola (Hann). Maybe that helps a little.

I will check out the stallions.

[horsechick]

Hi there...I'm not sure if you were wanting to stay Hanoverian or not, but I have a lovely young KWPN stallion who is approved with the RPSI. He is only 4 this year, and will breed his first mares in 2010.

That said, his bloodlines, conformation, movement, and temperament are superlative. He is by Balou du Rouet and out of a Voltaire mare-he was the sire of Popeye K. Although he has some of the best names in European showjumping in his pedigree, his way of going is very much that of a Hunter. He is a wonderful mover-very fluid but still powerful, and his jump is breathtaking. He scored a 9 for jumping at the approvals this summer. In addition, he is so very quiet and easy to work with. He also is very sturdy and has great bone and fantastic feet-he's still barefoot and is just fine that way. He may add the hardiness to your mare that you are looking for.

As this is his first year standing, it may be a chance for you to get the bloodlines and type you are looking for at a more economical rate than that of a more well known stallion. There are pictures, videos, and more information on the website.

Good luck in your search-it's fun to shop :)

[Royal Monaco]

I would definitely look at Sir Wanabi. He is absolutely gorgeous. Really nice head and top line. Nice gaits. Beautiful jump. Perfect caracter.

Plus, he is performing very well on the hunter circuit in Canada.

Here is the link to his website:
http://www.laprisestable.com/

[mbp]

I'm not great on color stuff, but if you want to keep the color - have you had your mare tested to see if she is homozygous for black or not?

I won't comment on much other than discipline and color or registry, but in addition to some good suggestions you already have, Redwine is a black jumping stallion
http://www.grayfoxfarms.com/redwine.htm
He is Hanoverian himself, but I'm not sure if one of his several approved breeding registries is AHS or not.

Are you going to want an IHF nominated stallion?

Escapade is another black Hanoverian bloodlines hunter stallion
http://www.barringtonhill.com/escapade-info.html#info

While not as specifically targeted to hunters, Rosenthal is a black Hannoverian stallion who is used for hunters as well as dressage horses and you might want to take a look.
http://www.hphanoverians.com/rosenthal.php

[EquineLVR]

Black Tie might be interesting for her - http://triadfarminc.com/id6.html

Escudo II - http://www.rainbowequus.com/

Apiro is throwing lovely babies....http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/

[RanchoAdobe]

I second Apiro and would also add another of Edgar's lovely stallions to the list - Baron Van Gogh (www.rainbowequus.com). He was just very impressive in the 70 stallion testing, his jump is classic hunter style and his head is beautiful, he has a lovely personality, and his bloodlines (both sire and dam) consistently produce top sporthorses. I believe that he is also nominated to the IHF.

[OGF]

Thank you, thank you!! This IS going to be more fun than I thought. I will check out all of the suggested stallions.

mbp - I haven't had her tested to see if she is homozygous for black but I will do that. Thanks.

I haven't really thought through the registry questions and specific breed questions. this point, my goal would be a really nice hunter for my daughter but keeping resale value in mind too.

[blicher-horses.dk]

Look at www.blicher-horses.dk. Home of Nector the hottest in the US. Highest approved in ISR Oldenburg and Holsteiner in US History..

[Dressage_Diva333]

Look at www.blicher-horses.dk. Home of Nector the hottest in the US. Highest approved in ISR Oldenburg and Holsteiner in US History..

That's a super stallion. Saw him in person at his ISR/OLD licensing. Really a special horse.

[nsm]

You might want to take a look at Ironrule, he is very typy, was national Reserve Champion 3 year old for hunter breeding in 08, moves great and has a fabulous jump. He has a page on the Ironman website.

Nancy

[avadog]

If you want a black I wouldn't breed to a grey, you have a 50% chance of grey and maybe no chance of black. A few black hunter stallions Redwine, Aloha, or Rosenthal. I wouldn't try to add bone with Escudo II. Escudo I in Germany is offered with frozen and he's very nice. I think all the stallions I've mentioned are very marketable also since that is your goal to sell.

[STF]

Look at Rubignon.
I had a 2004 to him, turned out to be a super filly and is now in her first year of A and AA after only being broke for a year and placing in classes with very made and seasoned hunters at 3ft level. I also know several other Rubignons that are showing much potential in the hunter ring. You will def. get "the look!"
Same goes for Redwine (same distant blood) if you can deal with the EVA issue, which is not to hard. Ask Jill about it.
There is one more stallion that has had my attention for hunters Ruben SF. I have not looked up his show record, but he has the look that gets noticed too.

[sixpoundfarm]

I would also suggest Apiro to add bone, substance, and an excellent mind. He is a beautiful individual, and certainly is working toward proving himself in the ring. He is slated to be at WEF this winter with Niko Ritter, I think they are aming for the bigger hunter classes once he's ready.

His foals are still young, but they seem to fit the type you are striving for.

He has also been approved for the AHS recently, so if you can get the passport/papers reissued on your mare, you could register the foal Hanoverian, which many people find very desirable. Good luck in your choice!

[hollyhorse2000]

I have no stallion to suggest, but wanted to offer the viewpoint of an amateur who bred a baby. I did not know what I was doing either, but I had access to a lovely TB broodmare and enough trainers with expertise around to help me. But I found that it was extremely expensive to board and then train a baby for years until she was ready to be ridden. And I came to realize I really didn't feel comfortable riding a young inexperienced horse even though she was completely sane and sweet. I just preferred my made "schoolmaster" to the baby. I ended up selling her to a lovely young girl, who has done nice things with her. But I easily spent more than $25K and sold her for less than $10K.

And this was while getting a baby that was pretty close to what I wanted (maybe a touch small). Never mind if I got a baby who didn't have the right personality or had some conformational defect.

So now I leave the breeding to the professionals . . .

[mbp]

Grandom, Escudo II and Rubignon, in addition to all being black, all stand at Rainbow Equus Meadows. You should feel free to contact Edgar with REM for his input on what you might or might not get with each of those crosses vis a vis your mare and what you want.

If you really want black, I'd ask stallion owners if their stallion has been tested as homozygous for black as well as looking into your mare. If color is important, I'd second what avadog said on greys and pretty much all of his/her comment.

As you start looking more closely into stallions recommended and registries, etc. you may change your mind a bit about what you'd like most or want to avoid and if that happens, don't be shy about asking for additional or different recommendations. I think the universe of what is out there can overwhelm a bit at first.

[OGF]

hollyhorse2000 - yes, I have resisted the idea of breeding because I don't know enough about it and I worry about the time commitment. But, we have some huge advantages: we live and our horses live on a large farm so no boarding fees; my daughter is a very experienced rider who really should be able to do most if not all of the starting work herself. Still, I know it's a gamble.

We've been looking at all of the stallion suggestions. My daughter really likes Apiro and he seems to have gotten the thumbs up from several of the posters. Sensibly, my daughter is much more interested in qualities other than color so she doesn't really care much if we keep the black like the mare. But we are still looking.
For those who know Apiro: how is he through the back? Our mare is probably as long as we would like - no longer.

Thanks to this forum, I now have the website for the breeder in Germany and have seen photos of our mare's sire (she looks just like her daddy!). I should be able to get copies of everything else that I need - passport and inspection information.

I know someone asked about a photo of her. Can I post a photo of the mare here?

[OGF]

I wanted to update with a link to video that I finally put up. This was a year ago - the mare's first and only showing at the 3'6". :(( She was not thrilled with the yucky, muddy ring but I think it shows her well enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzm9qQCiHo

If anyone has any new suggestions/ideas based on the video of our mare, please let me know.

[sfstable]

Take a look at the stallion, Richard, I just updated his website tonight and added some hunter video (Regular Working Hunter round). He has shown in the hunter ring and through Grand Prix jumpers.

Not only does he have a performance record, he moves well, is very well mannered (he is now at my farm and handled by women), but he is stunning to look at. Black with chrome. :)

www.theequineathlete.net

[spacely]

Lovely mare! Redwine, Don Alfredo or Romantic Star would all be good choice for her. Dacaprio might be interesting too. It's a little bit of an out-of-the-box suggestion but he's making some fancy hunters. Pablo might also be a good choice.

[nsm]

Definately take a look at Richard.

Nancy

[avadog]

What a beautiful mare. I like Redwine or Popeye K for her.

[allanglos]

Or, you could make your own Redwine, who is the product of crossing Hanovarian with Anglo Arabian.

Here is an Anglo Arabian stallion (Signal Bey).

[spacely]

Or, you could make your own Redwine, who is the product of crossing Hanovarian with Anglo Arabian.

Here is an Anglo Arabian stallion (Signal Bey).

That's a stretch. His damsire is an Anglo Arab (Matcho) but the rest is all Hanoverian. I hardly think that crossing this mare with an Anglo Arab is "making your own Redwine" & definitely not something I'd do. I'd breed her to Redwine in a second though.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/redwine

[allanglos]

That's a stretch. His damsire is an Anglo Arab (Matcho) but the rest is all Hanoverian.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/redwine

Which is exactly what I said. Redwine is the product of crossing Hanovarian with Anglo Arabian.

Glad you like the cross, since you would use Redwine.

[OGF]

Agreed that Redwine is completely stunning - an absolutely gorgeous horse. But, I worry about his size. This mare is 16.1 1/2 and we would like a baby that finishes in the 16.1 1/2 to 16.3 range. I don't want to lose height. I need to do more research on size.

Here are our goals for the next generation: essentially the same horse with shorter back and shorter pasterns conformationally. Temperament and rideability is very, very important to me. Very correct through the legs. Looking for great hunter movement. Don't want to lose her wonderful jump.

This is the website for my mare's breeder. The horse on the first page is
Salisbury, her sire and the next page shows Salieri, her sire's sire. Not too shabby :)

http://www.pferdebuenger.de/index.html

[Edgewood]

A little out of the box and not sure how tall he is, but Windfall might be interesting. He is in the Hano Jumping Program and is approved by the German Verband too.

I know that Maren (trakehners international) has said that he comes from a very famous Trakehner family. He always has super rideability

http://www.newspringfarm.com/

Otherwise, I have seen Sir Wanabi in person at DAD and he is REALLY beautiful (and big, at least 16.3 h). I stood next to him and he is not a small horse in the slightest. He has super temperament scores at his SPT and is now showing hunters.

http://www.laprisestable.com/stallion.html

Or what about Escudo I? He is bigger/taller than his brother Escudo II. It would have to be frozen semen though. He was the Hanoverian stallion of the year in 2009. Lots of hunters are sired by both Escudo I and II.

[toomanyponies]

So I watched the video of your mare. . . she's very correct in front, enough scope for the 3 6, brave, great trot. Given the horrendous weather and the fact it was the first show, my 'areas of improvement' should be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak! If this was my mare, I would say you want a more uphill front end - I'd like to see her neck a bit longer, a little less flat, with a prettier head - maybe even a better (rounder) topline - she's a little butt high, head high, wither low as she goes. Given that she does have a great flat kneed hunter trot, I would look at Landfriese II (Rainbow Equus). Drop dead gorgeous, great jumper, up hill AND the sire of Quality Time - winner at Indoors, horse of the year multiple times etc etc. However, he can throw some knee action but I think you'd be fine. Another of his stallions would be Baron Von Gogh - not a great trotter (but fine) but a fabulous jumper, scopey, and uphill, and has a beautiful head. If your mare has a great mind, I would also consider Jupiter. Already mentioned are Apiro and Cabardino. . .

[OGF]

toomanyponies - I am completely with you on the room for improvement in up hill build. Yes, she is a little down hill in the front. As for the head, she's a little high-headed over the weather that day. Normally she actually tends to carry it too low if anything. We used to joke that she must have had some Western training in Germany - she was a peanut-roller wannabe. As for the neck length, I guess I was thinking in terms of a shorter back - which we probably want anyway- as balancing the neck a little. Does that make sense?

I looked at Landfriese II and he looks very interesting. I just didn't see a size in his information. But he certainly does seem to be producing top hunters. I'll look further into this one.

[toomanyponies]

You know you might be ok with Cunningham too - esp if you want more size. He is uphill, scopey, beautiful, a mover, but IMO sometimes he can jump 'too high' and then dangle his front legs a bit, esp if it is a spooky jump. I would only breed a mare with very reliable correct front leg form to him - and your mare has that. Not sure if you can get fresh for him thou. . .

Call Edgar about Landfriese and Baron - he is super nice, knowledgeable, and very chatty. He is also very reasonable about discussing the pros and cons of what each stallion can produce.

[feather river]

as always lots of suggestions of everyone's favorite "who's who". But if you are going to seriously consider resale and fixing the few things that need fixing, I would strongly recommend you stick either with a Hanoverian or a German Oldenburg licensed stallion. All those other suggestions would not be followed by anyone who wants to be a "breeder"--they are for the one time horse producers. You should be thinking that she is a German Hanoverian who sounds like there may be some inconsistencies in her background--just from reading your comments and a few of the comments given by others about her. Sounds like she needs a modern consolidation, especially if you think "filly" means a possible next generation breeding animal. Hanoverian papers or German Oldenburg papers on a nicely bred filly out of a German Hanoverian mother has much more value than any of these other registries--nothing personal against the other registries, but your mare does not have papers and a genetic pedigree of any of those other registries. I know, if you have a colt then it is just a riding horse gelding so who cares what kind of papers it has. But if it is a filly, you need to think "best value". I know a lot of these posters are going to howl about these comments, but it will only be because I have spoken the truth. There are several very nice and modern Hanoverian or German Oldenburg stallions here in the States who will do as good a job for you as any of the other suggested stallions. In Germany a nice Hanoverian mare makes a good choice for a nice Oldenburg stallion or a nice Hanoverian stallion. They don't do too well when crossed with some of the other German breeds. And you have no prior foal production to make any decisions on. Stick to the two registries I have mentioned for all these reasons.

[Lundgren]

It is really a small small world. I (in Sweden) just found this forum about a month ago, and a friend of mine has a sister to your mare! I helped her import her from Germany and has been with her all the way!

The name of this mare is Sunday Morning by Salieri -Aurora - Augustinus xx.

I agree with those of you who say you should stick to Hanoverian stallions. The mare you have comes frome a very solid breeder and a good mare line.

So far Sunday Morning has had two foals at my friends. The first one is a black stallion by His Highness, and 2009 a mare from Damsey, both from Leatherdale Farms.

www.leatherdalefarms.com

I have no idea if you can use frozen (?), in that case I really recomend Damsey. That filly is something special! She is pretty as a picture, really noble and elegant and has amazing gaits. She is a real princess!

Otherwise my only suggestion (since I'm all new to Hanoverians in the US) must be Dacaprio at Bridlewood Farm. I think he would make a really nice foal with Sunday, and perhaps the same with your mare!

I'll see if I can upload som pictures of these horses for you!

[Lundgren]

Here is Sunday Morning with her filly by Damsey. (The filly us built much more "uphill" than shown here, bad picture and bad timing.)

http://iloapp.lundgren-sporthorses.com/blog/ostergarden?ShowFile&image=1264268590.jpg


And her His Highness -son, here 14 months old. Big boy with amazing temperament!
http://iloapp.lundgren-sporthorses.com/blog/ostergarden?ShowFile&image=1264268490.jpg

Sunday was bred to His Highness when we imported her, and now she is in foal to Contendro I. When we have chosen stallions for her we have wanted stallions of "shorter" type, built "uphill" (I'm not familiar with these expressions in English), with good basic gaits but also with jumping ability, hence this years breeding with Contendro. Since she has xx-blood in second generations, we have not worried very much about stallions with much thorughbred.

The His Highness is a very long-legged boy who during his first year grew very much. At the end of the summer, closer to 1,5 years he sort of grew into his large body and started moving really well. We started free jumping him and he did that very well too. Not like his friend, my holsteiner stallion, but with enough scope and ok technique. He is a very quiet easy stallion, and I look forward to seeing him under saddle.

The little Damsey-filly is lighter in her type, and has a temperament that does not come from her father! Sunday is a nice mare but she also knows what she wants!

I'm thrilled that I read this thread. I've tried to find Sunday's offsprings who are supposed to be sold to the US, but this was a surprise! :)

[OGF]

Lundgren- thanks so much for the pics and the info! You' re right! it is a very small world. I've gotten so much help on this message board tracking down info about my mare. I now know that I can fairly easily get copies of her paperwork - passport, etc - with my certificate of ownership from Verband Hannoverscher. My mare's sire is actually Salisbury. Her sire's sire is Salieri. Which is your friend's horses sire? And yes, I've heard a lot of good things about her breeder.

[Lundgren]

They have the same mother but Salieri is Sunday's dad, so they are really closely related!

Full pedigree here:

http://www.blup.se/en-US/horses/206282-sunday-morning

[stella3]

I am IN LOVE with Amazing! DROOL!!!

He makes me wanna breed my mare!

[not again]

I have heard that Brentina is in foal to Damsey. Not a hunter but certainly a great athlete with a great mind.

[horsechick]

Thank you stella3 :)

[OGF]

I looked at Damsey and he is obviously a fabulous stallion. But, if my goal is a hunter, shouldn't I be looking at stallions that have a proven track record at least jumping themselves or in their offspring?

[avadog]

I looked at Damsey and he is obviously a fabulous stallion. But, if my goal is a hunter, shouldn't I be looking at stallions that have a proven track record at least jumping themselves or in their offspring?

Yes, I think so. Some of the horses mentioned are either jumpers with no track record in the hunter ring or dressage horses that who really knows how they jump.

[Samotis]

If she was my mare, I would choose either Westporte or Cunningham.

They are both showing in the Regular Working Hunters and both have offspring starting to show in the hunters.

Both have beautiful heads and necks and personally I would get videos of both to see what they can improve on your mare.

I think she is a beautiful mare and I wouldn't try to change her too much. Thats why you should stay with a hunter stallion. You certainly don't want to flatten her movement any more, just keep it! (you loose that jump when they move too flat)

I think that some jumpers stallions (worked for my mare) and dressage stallions are great for some types of mares, but in this case I would just stay with a hunter stallion!

I have seen both these horses show and they are amateur friendly, quiet and beautiful.

Cunningham is by Cassini I which has produced other hunters, and I think that Westporte is more dressage bred, but he is a hunter type for sure.

I think on Westportes website there are also some pictures of Cunninghams offspring, at least there used to be!

If you wanted to stay black then I would say Black Tie. He is a Hanoverian and is just beautiful. His owner Talley is very nice and probably could give you some offspring pictures as well as what he has produced out of the mares he has bred to!

Good Luck. Let us know when you decide!!

[Lundgren]

Just to explain our choice of Damsey for the sister, he comes from a line of mothers who has produced double talanted horses and jumpers for generation, he actually comes from a holsteiner stamm. His mothers pedigree is Ritual (Ramiro) - Grande - Ladykiller xx- Anblick xx. And his Sire Dressage Royal is famous for his rideability.

Here are Damseys test-scores:

Temperament: 9,0
Walk: 9,0
Trot: 8,75
Canter: 8,5
Rideability: 9,25
Jumping: 7,25

When it comes to me suggesting Dacaprio, it's because I've worked with him and lots of his babies in Germany, and many times been surprised at how well they jump. He has had offsprings competing in the jumping class in the Bundeschampionate.

But I agree with the others, if it is a jumper you want, perhaps you should find a jumper who moves well too.

I've never seen this Cunningham, but I would want to know how his offpsprings move before I consider it. Cassini I is one of the best stallions when it comes to producing jumpers, but his index for the gaits are not that exciting.

[fish]

I've never seen this Cunningham, but I would want to know how his offpsprings move before I consider it. Cassini I is one of the best stallions when it comes to producing jumpers, but his index for the gaits are not that exciting.[/QUOTE]

I know both Cunningham and his offspring well: I have 2 colts by him, my vet and one of my friends both have fillies. They are all lovely movers-- uphill and with suspension enough for dressage, while still flat enough to be competitive in the hunters (though it's hard to beat Westporte in that department). (You can see a photo of one of my colts U/S as a 3 year old in my profile.) Rather ironically, considering his phenomenal show record as a hunter, Cunningham was one of the top scoring stallions in dressage at his ISR/OldNA inspection. Not bad for a Grand National Champion (and top money-winning) hunter :)

FYI, Cassini I has also sired one of my favorite dressage horses of all time: Claire, who was purchased out of the jumper arena by Arlene Page and winning at top FEI shows (e.g. Gladstone) within 2 years. IMO, both Cassini I and Cunningham have very good gaits with the possible exception of the walk-- and particularly wonderful canters. Doesn't hurt that they are (IMO) drop dead gorgeous/full of presence either.

Keep in mind, too, that the OP says she is breeding for the hunter ring, not an "index for gaits" proceeding from other disciplines. Cassini I has been one of the leading sires of hunters (topping the list at least twice) for years, with many offspring showing, including a hunter Derby Winner (under Liza Boyd) and national Ch. Cunningham among the many offspring earning H/J points. For the hunter ring, it would, IMO, be difficult to find bloodlines better proven than Cassini I's. Happily, the USEF does keep such info. available on its website.

P.S. Given that hunters receive the vast majority of their points from classes over fences, I don't think I'd want to select a stallion whose jumping was his weak suit if I wanted to breed a competitive hunter.

[OGF]

ok. I am slowly narrowing the field. Keeping in mind what we personally hope to achieve, re-sale value, future breeding if we get a filly, etc. I'm looking hard at Westporte (who's website and videos I just saw and loved) and a few others. Feedback on Westporte?

[allanglos]

Here is solid black holsteiner hunter stallion:

http://www.shnpayback.com/Stallions_M-R/Pik_Ravenclaw.html

[GAF]

Here is solid black holsteiner hunter stallion:

http://www.shnpayback.com/Stallions_M-R/Pik_Ravenclaw.html

It seems you only post to promote your auction.:rolleyes:

Westporte would not be my choice if you want to keep a good jump.

[fish]

ok. I am slowly narrowing the field. Keeping in mind what we personally hope to achieve, re-sale value, future breeding if we get a filly, etc. I'm looking hard at Westporte (who's website and videos I just saw and loved) and a few others. Feedback on Westporte?

Have you checked the H/J forum? There's a thread in progress re: "hot hunter stallions."

[Perfect Pony]

ok. I am slowly narrowing the field. Keeping in mind what we personally hope to achieve, re-sale value, future breeding if we get a filly, etc. I'm looking hard at Westporte (who's website and videos I just saw and loved) and a few others. Feedback on Westporte?

Well you can take this with a grain of salt, but I spent quite a while polling several of the top hunter trainers and hunter breeding breeders and trainers and not one had a good thing to say about Westporte's temperament nor the temperament of his offspring TO ME. I just thought I would put this out there because I am in a similar position to you in some ways.

The two stallions I was consistently steered towards for a hunter, breeding for movement, temperament and ridability for a fancy hunter that could possibly be a nice ammy horse were Cunningham and Ragtime. I had the opportunity this year to see quite a few Ragtime offspring and they were all at the worst "nice" and some were very, very nice.

[avadog]

If she was my mare, I would choose either Westporte or Cunningham.

They are both showing in the Regular Working Hunters and both have offspring starting to show in the hunters.

Both have beautiful heads and necks and personally I would get videos of both to see what they can improve on your mare.

I think she is a beautiful mare and I wouldn't try to change her too much. Thats why you should stay with a hunter stallion. You certainly don't want to flatten her movement any more, just keep it! (you loose that jump when they move too flat)

I think that some jumpers stallions (worked for my mare) and dressage stallions are great for some types of mares, but in this case I would just stay with a hunter stallion!

I have seen both these horses show and they are amateur friendly, quiet and beautiful.

Cunningham is by Cassini I which has produced other hunters, and I think that Westporte is more dressage bred, but he is a hunter type for sure.

I think on Westportes website there are also some pictures of Cunninghams offspring, at least there used to be!

If you wanted to stay black then I would say Black Tie. He is a Hanoverian and is just beautiful. His owner Talley is very nice and probably could give you some offspring pictures as well as what he has produced out of the mares he has bred to!

Good Luck. Let us know when you decide!!
Are you sure Westporte is doing the regular working hunters? I don't think he ever has.

[Samotis]

I saw Westporte show in the Secon Year Conformation classes in 2007. I can't recall if I ever saw him show in the 4 foot. He showed a full year in the first years and a full year in the second years while showing with his amateur rider.

His temperament can't be that bad if he is out there winning the majority of his classes with an amateur. I have never seen him act up at the shows. I did hear of one incident, and with stallions, it happens on occasion. I have seen many really nice stallions have a fresh day and act rude. It does happen.

I don't know the temperament of his offspring, as I have only seen pictures. I just really thought he had a lot of presence when I saw him.

He can jump flat just like Cunningham when not impressed with a jump. That doesn't worry me. They both are very good jumpers.

I really love Cassini, and if I had the money I would breed to him in a heartbeat!!!

I suppose you could try to get a hold of some people who have Westporte offspring and ask what they are like to ride and bring up.

If you want it for re-sale then you could look at Popeye K. He is just too hit or miss for me. Plus my mare is short bodied and with his neck I wouldn't take the chance. ;) I have seen some nice babies by him, don't get me wrong, I just think he needs a certain mare.

[two sticks]

What about Sir Caletto?

[spacely]

I saw Westporte show in the Secon Year Conformation classes in 2007. I can't recall if I ever saw him show in the 4 foot. He showed a full year in the first years and a full year in the second years while showing with his amateur rider.

He did 6 shows in the second years & has not shown since 2007. He's never done the 4 foot. He did do a full year in the first years.

Ragtime's jump is concerning the way he crosses his front legs over the top of most every jump.

I did like Cunningham when I saw him but I want to see more foals & see how they mature.

I still think Redwine is a great choice for this mare. I know there is some size concern but he's 16.1 1/2 himself (maybe a bit more) but his kids are definitely on track to mature in the 16.2 and over range, seem to have all the right ingredients & sell well. I think he'd improve every ares you are looking to improve on your mare.

Popeye K might actually be an interesting choice also. They definitely sell well. Don Alfredo might be another one to consider.

[OGF]

Sir Caletto has that jump that you would just love to have. In fact, he's my daughter's favorite because of that jump. But he appears to be a little short in the neck (correct me if I'm wrong) and we were looking for a little longer neck. I don't think I've seen any video of his flat work. How well does he move?

Hmm.. there seems to be a split opinion on Westporte.

[spacely]

Sir Caletto isn't going to help in the movement department at all.

[toomanyponies]

I looked at Damsey and he is obviously a fabulous stallion. But, if my goal is a hunter, shouldn't I be looking at stallions that have a proven track record at least jumping themselves or in their offspring?


YES YES YES - but look at jumper bred stallions too, not just stallions promoted as 'hunter' stallions.

[Samotis]

I really love Balou du Rouet. He throws some dark bay/black horses and he is a fantastic jumper. There are some hunter types by him and all the ones I have seen on the auction videos are beautiful.

It would be a toss up between Cassini and Balou, if I had the time and money to put into it!!! (maybe some day I will!)

But of course I love my colt that is by Roc USA who is by Idocus (mother by Galoubet). ;) I crossed my very petite tb mare with him and got a great colt. Bigger bone and will probably finish at 16.3. He is producing both jumpers and hunters.

[two sticks]

Sir Caletto has that jump that you would just love to have. In fact, he's my daughter's favorite because of that jump. But he appears to be a little short in the neck (correct me if I'm wrong) and we were looking for a little longer neck. I don't think I've seen any video of his flat work. How well does he move?

Hmm.. there seems to be a split opinion on Westporte.

I haven't seen him move. I have a four year old by him who I personally think is a nice mover. Here is a video- he was only under saddle 2 weeks when this video was taken- and it's not the greatest quality (my mom had some blair witch moments with the video camera) but maybe it will give you an idea...
http://www.youtube.com/user/srs2712#p/u/0/VLY0vSOp3nM

Also, I'm not a breeder and don't claim to be, but I am extremely happy with this horse, and based on him would buy another Sir Caletto or breed to him if I had a mare in a heartbeat. But again my experience is based only on my own horse, so take it with a grain of salt ;).

[stripes]

Here are some photos of Cunningham & Nector from their ISR Old NA Inspection at Starr Vaughn Equestrian. Both stallion were very impressive and beautiful!
http://tamarawiththecamera.smugmug.com/Inspections/Oldenburg-NA-Inspection-SVE/5842678_7MYHr#362551701_pam6x
http://tamarawiththecamera.smugmug.com/Inspections/Oldenburg-NA-Inspection-SVE/5842678_7MYHr#362652023_toYot

[goodmorning]

I haven't seen him move. I have a four year old by him who I personally think is a nice mover.

two sticks - I am curious, what type of mare is your guy out of? I would be curious as to her breeding and type :)

Personally, I love Cunningham as a hunter-sire, but he himself appears to be a little bored in the hunter ring. Don't get me wrong, I love this guy for his looks and his breeding, but he just looks like he belongs in the Grand Prix jumper ring (I think his younger sister is there already ;) ) But he seems to be one of the Holstiener's that could sire some great hunters.

I really think Escudo is the way to go with such a mare, they tend to be shorter & have that extra brilliance, as long as being black and attractive. To get a better idea, Escapade's website has quite a few examples of horses sired by Escudo...here is that website:
http://www.barringtonhill.com/escapade-pedigree.html#pedigree

[grayfox]

two sticks - I am curious, what type of mare is your guy out of? I would be curious as to her breeding and type :)

Personally, I love Cunningham as a hunter-sire, but he himself appears to be a little bored in the hunter ring. Don't get me wrong, I love this guy for his looks and his breeding, but he just looks like he belongs in the Grand Prix jumper ring (I think his younger sister is there already ;) ) But he seems to be one of the Holstiener's that could sire some great hunters.

I really think Escudo is the way to go with such a mare, they tend to be shorter & have that extra brilliance, as long as being black and attractive. To get a better idea, Escapade's website has quite a few examples of horses sired by Escudo...here is that website:
http://www.barringtonhill.com/escapade-pedigree.html#pedigree
Do you mean the Escudo I that stands in Germany? Escudo I has had some lovely hunters. I bred Two Stick"s gelding and the mare was a hunter mare with hack winning movement. She was an Oldenburg Prinz Gaylord/TB. She had a long career in the hunters on the west coast. I think the foal looks and moves a lot like her. I thought Sir Caletto added some needed height to the baby. It was a good cross.

[two sticks]

two sticks - I am curious, what type of mare is your guy out of? I would be curious as to her breeding and type :)


An Oldenburg mare by Prinz Gaylord.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/perpetual+power

Not too sure on type, I bought him as a youngster, so I never actually met the mare. The breeder says she was a very nice mover. (Looks like his breeder, gray fox, and I posted at the same time, see above post for more info on her!)

I guess I was wrong to suggest Sir Caletto, as other posters who know more than I do have suggested he would shorten the neck and not help in the movement department. Sorry!

[leslie645]

I love, love, love this guy:

regular working hunter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBjqGSBg-7o


he does jumpers as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQYXEhDcu3I

[Barb Gualco]

Two sticks your post was just fine....For the black Hanoverian hunter mare owner I think Sir Caletto would make a wonderful cross...I've bred well over 65 youngsters by him and this particular stallion makes incredibly good movers......were it otherwise, Silverhorne would not have kept breeding him to its own mares for the past 7 seasons nor sold the number of breedings to him that it has since he came into the USA.

It's a challenge to get good, accurate information about your stallion's offspring into the market place....so I am taking this opportunity to correct what is just perhaps some poor information had by one of the earlier posters... Sir Caletto has some super fans that post here regularly...the offspring really speak for themselves... 22 warmblood inspection champs or reserve champions confirm my point that they are very good movers and nicely conformed foals.

[Barb Gualco]

Thanks Jill for the nice remark about the cross with Sir Caletto ..I must have overlooked your post when I last posted.....that was a while ago on the PG mare...wasn't that the one that was so hard to get in foal?....SC's semen worked wonders on her and the two others you bred too. Did you ever sell Candy Corn and did she produce anything for your program? Hope you are doing well.

[grayfox]

Yes, it worked really well with her and after that she was easy to get in foal. I sold Candee Corn, she was a nice mare. I should have kept her.

[Barb Gualco]

Thanks Jill....that was back in the day when Silverhorne was taking many outside mares to prepare and ride them for the mare performance testing because we could provide the necessary service and after Glenwood Farms closed, there was a lack of skilled trainers or riders who could prepare the mares and execute the test. We received really great training over a series of years on how to prepare the mares from our long association with Glenwood. I think that year I had two Dutch riders, one worked full time for me and the other had owned his own breeding farm in Holland, knew stallions and mares and lived with us here for a full two months getting mares ready for the riding part of the test...You were very appreciative Jill, a good client and you certainly know now how hard it can be to get a Thoroughbred mare AHS approved. Candee Corn, I always loved that name, was a sweet mare for sure.