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Incognito123
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:22 PM
So yes I changed my name and small details in case someone on the buyer’s side recognizes the scenario.

Here's the deal, horse went on trial and days 1, 2, 3, 4 horse was good day 4 was up slightly. Day 5 went bananas and took off with rider.

When I asked some questions, it came out that the horse hasn't been out in 5 days it has been on trial. This horse is used to a lot of turn out and I told them that.

Is it legit to hold this against the horse?

Haalter
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:26 PM
I'd be more likely to hold it against the seller or the seller's agent who neglected to mention that the horse needs daily turnout. It's not necessarily a "given" in every program, especially for a sale horse.

loshad
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:26 PM
If lots of turnout doesn't fit their management program, he may not be the right horse for them (and they aren't the right home for the horse). It would certainly be a legitimate reason to pass on the horse.

Incognito123
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:33 PM
Are you serious? I don't think that I know any horse that goes well being in 24 hrs a day and for 5 days.

I said that he gets a lot of turn out and they have plenty of turn out and it is not a problem.

And, since when do you need to tell someone that daily turnout is required? Isn't that basic horse 101? I mean come on.

SkipChange
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:40 PM
Are you serious? I don't think that I know any horse that goes well being in 24 hrs a day and for 5 days.

I said that he gets a lot of turn out and they have plenty of turn out and it is not a problem.

And, since when do you need to tell someone that daily turnout is required? Isn't that basic horse 101? I mean come on.

No it isn't "basic horse 101"

--First off some people are uneducated.
--Second, not everyone has access to tons of pasture (think highly populated areas)...this has been discussed frequently.
--Third, horse show situation. Horses are frequently stalled with no turnout whatsoever for 5 days (or more). Horse gets ridden/shown and right back in the stall. Horses may get handwalked or lunged frequently but there's not a whole lot of turnout at horse shows (and when there is any it's expensive).

And finally, with a horse on trial, some people (buyer or seller) don't want to run the risk of the horse injuring itself out in pasture. When I took a horse on trial private turnout was required. If potential buyer had no access to private turnout they would be inclined to keep it stalled rather than turn it out in a group situation where it would run the risk of being injured.

SidesaddleRider
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:43 PM
If you were up front about what the horse's needs are, then it should not be held against the horse. If you didn't specify that the horse *must* have daily turnout in your trial agreement, then it is a bit more iffy. Frequently, when horses are on trial, they may get very minimal or no turnout for fear of injury, but they do get ridden and/or lunged every day of the trial.

I personally am sure to ask people when they inquire about a horse what their turnout situation is like, as some horses just do not do well without regular extended turnout, and I tell all potential buyers what each horse's current turnout schedule is.

I don't let horses go on trial, but I do write into their sales contract what their turnout routine was while they were here (i.e., 12 hours individual turnout, 24 hours group turnout, etc). When I leased a horse, it was written into the contract that the horse had to have daily individual turnout for a minimum of 2 hours per day.

Unfortunately, in today's world, you need to specify everything you can.

justagreen
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:43 PM
Playing devil's advocate a bit here, but....

In my ongoing horse-search, I have taken a couple of horses for a day of try-out, in order to ride them with my coach in a lesson-type situation. I have them for the day to get to know them a bit, groom, tack up, etc. to see if a longer trial is warranted.
During that time, I am responsible for them, and you better believe that I watch them like a hawk, keep them in a very nice, deeply bedded stall with 2 buckets of clean water, do not allow them to even venture into the small attached paddock and in general take any other precautions possible to make sure nothing happens to them while on my watch.
I do not advocate a "no-turn-out-ever" policy for a horse once it becomes mine (that is cruel and unusual), but until then, I would not want to risk it getting hurt out playing and bucking, which can happen very easily, as you know.

RugBug
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:47 PM
Are you serious? I don't think that I know any horse that goes well being in 24 hrs a day and for 5 days.

I said that he gets a lot of turn out and they have plenty of turn out and it is not a problem.

And, since when do you need to tell someone that daily turnout is required? Isn't that basic horse 101? I mean come on.

Well, if you want to be nasty about it... :rolleyes: YOU asked for opinions.

As a buyer, I would certainly evaluate the horse now with the knowledge that he gets wound up with no turn out in five days. If I didn't think I could provide a program that worked for him or that I didn't want to deal with a horse that would be high enough to take off if he didn't get the proper amount of turn-out, I would have no qualms passing and telling the owner/seller exactly why.

Also, unless I had a specific written agreement with the seller that I would not be responsible for any injuries incurred while in turn-out under my care, I would not turn a trial horse out.

BTW, in CA, daily turn-out is NOT common. If it is, it's 30 minutes to an hour in small paddock, hardly enough to take or keep the edge off. I bought a new horse in July, and while I try to get him out once or twice a week, I have a hard time with it for a number of reasons (turn-outs might be full, can't find an appropriate buddy for him (he runs without a buddy and will play hard with the wrong one)). He hasn't been out for about 3 weeks now and he's still just fine when ridden. I made sure when shopping that the horse could tolerate the program I would be able to provide.

loshad
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:49 PM
It is also the case that, in many areas of the country, people aren't turning out at the moment due to insanely cold temps, lots of snow, and rain. It isn't unusual for horses to stay in for several days in a row in the winter due to weather or extreme mud in the pastures. Mine is generally out about 8-12 hours a day, but in weather like we've been having, he gets kept inside. And, yes, sometimes it will be as long as five days. Lousy, but I don't control the weather, sad to say.

As SkipChange said, in a show situation the horse may not get turnout. Many horses in the world do just fine on limited/no turnout. If the horse you are selling does not fit the management program of the barn trying him, then it is completely legitimate for them to pass on the horse. Why in the world would you want him to stay at a place that doesn't appear to be a good fit?

heartinrye
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:50 PM
No it isn't "basic horse 101"


--Third, horse show situation. Horses are frequently stalled with no turnout whatsoever for 5 days (or more). Horse gets ridden/shown and right back in the stall. Horses may get handwalked or lunged frequently but there's not a whole lot of turnout at horse shows (and when there is any it's expensive).



True, what happens if they buy this horse and by Sunday of every week the horse wigs out? Something I would like to know in advance ;)

Incognito123
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:50 PM
They can do induvidual turn out and they did not even lunge him before riding. I am not selling a horse that would be doing 5 day A rated shows. It takes a very specific horse that can handle no turnout for 5 days.

I feel like they were setting him for failure. That's a thought, maybe they were.

loshad
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:53 PM
I feel like they were setting him for failure. That's a thought, maybe they were.

Paranoid much? :rolleyes:

Ajierene
Dec. 29, 2009, 12:54 PM
Each horse as their own personality and some require more turnout than others.

If these people do not have a turnout schedule that fits the horse's needs, then it may not be the best fit for them.

Also, while he is on trial, the barn owner of where he is may not want to turn a horse out in her fields that may be gone a week, only there long enough to mess up the herd dynamics.

It is a tricky situation, but it is up to the buyer.

A friend once had a horse returned because he was perfect in every way except he was never taught to lunge. At least that's the story the potential buyer told...go figure. Buyer's want what they want and it is their right to turn a horse down for whatever reason. After that horse came back, the sellers were honest and stated that the horse came back because he did not know how to lunge. They got a lot of sympathy from other sellers and buyers that the whole lunging thins was kind of silly. The horse sold to someone else a few weeks later.

No matter the reason, it is better that the buyers send back something that is not 'perfect' for them, rather than 'be stuck' with a horse they do not like as much.

Incognito123
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:01 PM
I guess I am of the mind that horses are not robots and horses need turnout. I am in an area and so are the buyers that has ample turnout and is very common for horses to go outside. I don't think that is healthy for horses to not get turned out.

Also, they plenty of fields for individual turnout.

SkipChange
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:04 PM
They can do induvidual turn out and they did not even lunge him before riding. I am not selling a horse that would be doing 5 day A rated shows. It takes a very specific horse that can handle no turnout for 5 days.

I feel like they were setting him for failure. That's a thought, maybe they were.

Well did you discuss the terms of the trial and stipulate turnout? Never assume that people are smart or educated. No turnout on trial horses is standard operating procedure for some and not for others.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting the horse in full, daily turnout. I like my horses with 12+ hours of turnout a day. The key step would be telling the client what kind of program they need to have the horse in while on trial and making sure they will provide the care (i.e. turnout) that the horse needs.

RugBug
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:10 PM
I guess I am of the mind that horses are not robots and horses need turnout. I am in an area and so are the buyers that has ample turnout and is very common for horses to go outside. I don't think that is healthy for horses to not get turned out.

Also, they plenty of fields for individual turnout.

That's all well and good, but there are still many reasons NOt to turn a horse out while on trial and there are many reasons to not want to purchase a horse that can't handle being inside for 5 days.


It takes a very specific horse that can handle no turnout for 5 days.

I feel like they were setting him for failure. That's a thought, maybe they were.

BOTH of my horses (WB and TB), even the super spooky, sensitive one (WB) have been fine with no turn-out. It's not really a 'special horse' that can handle no turn-out for five days. In fact, we have a barn full of them as do many people in Calfornia.

Changing a program can be difficult on a horse, but again, as I buyer I'd rather see how the horse would handle the situation so that the first time it's in for a week because of an abscess I don't get on expecting a different temperament. If a horse can go without turn-out and keep it together, it will get bonus points. Your's obviously can't, so no bonus points and it could be enough of a negative that I would pass on the horse altogether.

Why would you be upset that someone who is "setting the horse up for failure" doesn't want it?

Someone is a little ridiculous in this situation...and it's not the buyer.

Rockfish
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:10 PM
I guess I am of the mind that horses are not robots and horses need turnout. I am in an area and so are the buyers that has ample turnout and is very common for horses to go outside. I don't think that is healthy for horses to not get turned out.

Also, they plenty of fields for individual turnout.

I guess I'm the only one that is with you on this. When ever I took a horse on trial in the past, we turned them out. We always cleared it with the owner first, to let them know, that our barn operated on a 12 hour-in/12-out schedule. Never had a seller who had a problem with it.

Jo
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:13 PM
Turnout or not, if a horse bolted with me while on trial, I'd pass. Life's too short to deal with things that make me feel like I'm having a heart attack!

Tegan
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:21 PM
Depends on the rider and situation.

Will horse have regular turnout if bought?
Can the rider handle occasional misbehavior, or is it going to be damaging to his/her confidence?
How badly did he bolt? A few strides or several laps? Was he responsive at all or just completely wacko? Any bucking or just running?


I wouldn't completely discount the horse, but you need to take it into consideration.

whbar158
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:25 PM
I think that the buyers have every reason to pass if the horse took off with them like that from just no turnout. Do I know lots of horses that don't handle being in a stall? Yes, but I also know lots of horses that can handle being in, they may be fresher and may spook some but they are not out of control. I do think most people do keep up horses on trial or they get some turn out in the ring for awhile while they are watched.

Think for a minute what if they had turned out the horse and it go hurt? Would you be upset they turned the horse out?

Hindsight it always 20/20 if they don't want the horse they don't want it. Good Luck.

Giddy-up
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:33 PM
I think a few things need to be considered first before I'd rule the horse out.

IF they buy the horse, will they be turning him out more often? I totally understand having a "trial horse" on restrictions. I also would be taking extra precautions. BUT I'd also keep in mind when I ride the horse, it's not being turned out much & might be fresh.

Has the horse's diet changed? Are they feeding the exact same food in the same amounts that you did? Another thing to consider.

Did something cause the horse to go crazy? Something unusal that as a new horse at the farm he'd spook at, but the others who live there 24/7 could care less?

Maybe they are trying to find an out if this isn't the right horse for them. When you found out horse was "crazy", did you offer to stop by & help? Ask them if they had any questions? Did you once again tell them he needs daily turn out? Did you offer to take the horse back no questions asked?

They've had the horse for 5 days already...how much longer are they keeping him? Has a PPE been scheduled yet?

Samotis
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:34 PM
If a horse has been ridden 4 days in a row, it shouldn't take off with the rider on the 5th day.

There are hundreds of horses that go to horse shows every year that show all week with no turnout. I assure you that the majority of them don't bolt the 5th day of the horse show!

You wanted opinions and you can get upset, but bottom line, unless the person looking at your horse is able and wants a horse that can be a little unpredictable, then they will probably pass.

I know a lot of people that have tried horses and either fallen off or had a bad ride. Regardless of how nice the horse was or if it was a good or bad day for the horse, the buyer won't buy the horse.

That was the purpose of the trial! People can always "prepare" a horse at home for a buyer to come look at. A week at a new place and that changes a lot!

cajunbelle
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:43 PM
If this is a show prospect, why would turnout be expected while on trial?

Shows don't always have lunge areas available for warm up. Will this horse lose it.. after 5 days of showing with no turnout/lunging first?

It is your responsibility... to give any and all info to buyers, regarding the care of your critter while on trial.

Horsepower
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:49 PM
The question for me would be why would you want to sell this horse to these people? I would never sell a horse unless it would be given the turnout it is used to (I'm not a fan of show barns that keep horses in stalls endlessly). If they have reservations about this horse and the sale went through and then they couldn't handle the horse, you will only have more aggravation down the road from these people.

Treasmare2
Dec. 29, 2009, 01:57 PM
I'm with Samotis on the daily riding ought to keep the horses quiet even if there was no turnout provided. So I think there is something larger that may have led to the bolting...ie..conflict of personality perhaps?

If I had a horse on trial I would be reluctant to subject it to any uncontrolled exercise.....too much can happen and that can create a very awkward situation for everyone. I would simply suggest the horse is used to alot of turnout and if they aren't turning him out a pre ride lunge might be in order. That is about all you can do but my guess is the sale will go south.

Regarding trying to set the horse up for failure? Why? It takes time, energy and money to transport and care for a horse while on trial so I can't see where anyone would set the horse up but observing and interacting with a horse under various conditions is a fair trial. Intentionally trying to create a horse with pent up energy needs to be understood as not what the horse is used to or how its program has been managed.

I would simply say they ought to lunge the horse then try the ride again. Otherwise the horse is returned and suggest it can come back sooner than planned if they wish. JMHO

Beam Me Up
Dec. 29, 2009, 02:01 PM
I think the point of a trial is to try the horse more in its future environment, and the buyer is pretty much free to turn the horse down for any reason (she may forfeit her deposit, or whatever your terms were).

Buyer doesn't have to produce a reason that the seller accepts. "We just don't get along" or "I don't think he's the one for me" would also be sufficient.

Changes in environment can be really hard on a horse, and I guess that is part of the trial.

While I am a huge fan of turn-out and have mine out 12-24 hrs, depending on season, as a buyer I would not turn out a horse on trial (what if he ran around and killed himself) and as a seller I would not be too keen on a buyer turning him out in a strange place (and definitely not with strange horses).

I don't know, I understand why buyers ask for trials, but as a seller it just seems not worth the risk. Of injury to the horse or liability.

Giddy-up
Dec. 29, 2009, 02:09 PM
I know a lot of people that have tried horses and either fallen off or had a bad ride.

Talk about less than ideal situations happening...I fell off my pony during the trial, had another bolt when I got on, and the baby bit me. I bought all 3. Guess I wasn't too turned off. :p

Big_Grey_hunter
Dec. 29, 2009, 02:15 PM
Did the seller inform the buyer the horse needed turnout? If yes, then no the horse is not to blame.


Pretty much the EXACT same thing happened to a horse we were sending out on trial. After a few days of no turnout he bolted and was a bit wild. My trainer repeated 'turn the horse out!' and he was fine. They bought him on ce the trial was up.

Long Spot
Dec. 29, 2009, 02:28 PM
I'm confused. You are the seller or the agent for the seller? Or are you the buyer or agent for the buyer? Sounds like you are the seller. In which case, I'm not sure why the question. They'll either hold it against the horse or not and there isn't much you can do about that other then "vent". If you are the buyer then I think you have the answer as to whether the horse would work for you or not. In that case, it sounds like a "no".

If the buyer holds it against the horse, it is likely because they know they are unlikely to be able to give the horse as much turn-out as he needs and want to see how horse will be with out it. The only way to find that out is to take the horse on trial and see what happens with their status quo. Sounds like the information the seller provided about required turn-out rings true. He needs that to be a solid citizen. He proved the seller correct.

If the horse is going to be a local rated and unrated sort of horse, it could be do-able. If the horse is going to be an "on the road" horse, probably not.

I guess I'd say (given that I don't know if you are buyer or seller, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter) if the horse needs a certain amount of turn-out to be all that he can be, selling or purchasing him into a situation where he isn't able to have what keeps him happy isn't the best situation for the horse.

If you are the seller, be happy that the buyer found out he wouldn't work in the situation they had to offer and take him home and put him back on the market. If you are the buyer, be happy that you found out the horse wouldn't work under the perameters you were able to offer and can take a pass on the purchase.

This is what a trial is all about.

BoysNightOut
Dec. 29, 2009, 03:00 PM
While I'm a big advocate for T/O, I also have had a horse on trial (OTTB who had NO turnout at the track). While I did let him out in the indoor and outdoor ring on the trainer's suggestion (Alone!), I was nervous of him getting hurt. And don't ya know...he did. Nothing major (small cut that swelled up a bit on his hind fetlock). He turned out not to be the right horse for me, and returned him...but not without wrapping/cold hosing/cleaning out that wound real well. Thankfully, trainer wasn't bothered by it.

My 17 1/2 yo TB could be ridden for 5 days with no turnout, and still be a fire breathing dragon by day 3...that's how important T/O is to some horses.

But unless the buyer has a contract stating no liability for injury during T/O while on trial....I can't say I blame them for not turning him out. That's a HUGE risk to take. Doesn't mean they might not turnout, just means they might not be willing to take that risk.

I can't say for sure because we only have your side of the story....

QM2
Dec. 29, 2009, 03:34 PM
This horse is used to a lot of turn out and I told them that.

Sounds like this is a seller and that they told them horse gets a lot of turn out.

Why if they can turn horse out next to other horses by itself and they know it goes well WITH turnout. Why on earth would they change what is working? Seems like they really don't know what they are doing. From what you said the horse is NOT being sold as a high end show horse even those horses get lunged at shows and turnout at home.

Be thankfull that they didn't get you horse you'll find the right buyer. I don't think it is your horse's fault for being a normal horse with normal needs.

Ozone
Dec. 29, 2009, 03:51 PM
FWIW when I take a horse on trial I NEVER - (yes never)turn the horse out in the 5 day trial even if the horse is a horse that is out 24/7. It is a risk taking the horse to begin with. Should the horse become mine then all means he is turned out everyday.

With that, a trial is riding, getting to know your potential horse etc. I am thinking Incognito123 that these people are just excusing of why they do not want your horse. In 5 days your horse should not be blowing up... heck, he's been ridden all 4 days and for sure fussed over other ways.

Blinky
Dec. 29, 2009, 03:55 PM
Its all a moot point because it sounds as if they don't want the horse.

Lone
Dec. 29, 2009, 04:24 PM
Personally I would hold it against a horse if he bolted on me.

I agree that turnout is important. I would personally never keep my horses in a situation where they didn't get 8+ hours or turnout a day. Last year I moved out of a beautiful facility because horses were only out 5 hours a day. To me, that's not adequate.

Either way though, I don't want a horse who bolts. I don't do lots of shows, certainly not on any of the big circuits, but I go to different camps, clinics, etc where there might be a couple days with less than ideal turnout. I don't mind a horse who gets a little amped or hot, but I would have no interest in a horse who flat out bolts- regardless of the reason.

shawneeAcres
Dec. 29, 2009, 04:29 PM
It depends on SO MANY variables as to why the horse bolted. Was it something that really came up suddenly and scared the horse, like maybe a motorbike or golf cart? Is it a young horse or a "made" horse? Is the rider perhaps doing soemthing to cause this? Is horse backsore from 5 days work in a row? Was it a cold, windy day, did snow slid off the roof? Just too many things to know for sure. If I am selling a hrose and someone contacts me that is trying the horse and related this, I would want more details, and if said horse is known to never have done such a thing I would say that, and suggest that perhaps it is due to no turnout when said horse is used to turnout. Other than that it becomes their decision. hey may want a longer trial and you may say "yes" or you may say "no" and I wouldn't fault you for either one, there are good reasons for both answers! However as a buyer if I could not attribute this to something fairly obvious, I would likely pass on the horse, bolters are unpredictable and can really cause major damage, particularly if a child rider.

2bayboys
Dec. 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
The point of a trial is to see if you like the horse as much at the end of the trial as you did at the beginning. To see if horse and rider get along.

A trial implies that the buyer can make a choice, to buy or not to buy. It's not like putting something on layaway.

CBoylen
Dec. 29, 2009, 05:28 PM
Turning a horse out that is on trial in a strange place is a huge risk. On a short trial of five days, not a risk worth taking. If they're riding the horse every day, it may get fresher as time goes on without turnout as well as work, but it should not behave completely out of character after five days. Bottom line is your horse's fresh is too fresh for this buyer.

Phaxxton
Dec. 29, 2009, 05:30 PM
I wouldn't necessarily hold it against the horse, BUT -- if that were my only boarding option, then I would need a horse that fit into that lifestyle and that program. Clearly this particular horse is not it. It's not a good fit.

Incognito123
Dec. 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
From what the trainer said, he was in the indoor and just on the other side of the wall someone started a loud tractor just when he was next to it but could not see it because of the indoor wall.

The rider was able to get the horse back but did not fall off.

RugBug
Dec. 29, 2009, 07:59 PM
From what the trainer said, he was in the indoor and just on the other side of the wall someone started a loud tractor just when he was next to it but could not see it because of the indoor wall.

The rider was able to get the horse back but did not fall off.

In the situation you mentioned, I would probably cut the horse some slack of the "that may have been a reasonable reation given the situation" type. However, I would also return it to the seller because I don't want a horse that bolts as "easily" as that. I've already got one...don't need another.

Amber_M
Dec. 29, 2009, 08:34 PM
Yes, I hold it against the horse for the following reasons-

-What happens in the event of a monsoon/blizzard/locust swarm/alien invasion and my horse cannot go out for an extended period of time? Is this horse that fussy that his turnout schedule must be handled "just so" so that I can ride? Sometimes in the rainy South, or cold North, the ground is too wet or frozen for horses to go out for a while

-What if your trainer's program offers limited turnout due to space or other issues and he gets 1/8 of the time outdoors as normal? The buyer will naturally assume this horse doesn't fit in their program.

-A buyer takes a horse on trial for many reasons, and one is to see how many things the seller was BSing on. This horse I'm assuming was sold as a safe, non-bolter. Now the buyer has reason to believe otherwise, however innocent of a bolt.

I would absolutely hold the horse accountable- WHO wouldn't? Why would anyone take a horse on trial to do anything OTHER than to monitor and judge it for it's actions during that time?

Could it be that seller's horse just isn't as "broke" as they thought it was? Wondering why that hasn't been explored yet.

Gideon
Dec. 29, 2009, 09:12 PM
I never owned a horse that could go 5 days without turnout.
If the buyer is aware and can deal with this, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker.:D

2 tbs
Dec. 29, 2009, 09:31 PM
From what the trainer said, he was in the indoor and just on the other side of the wall someone started a loud tractor just when he was next to it but could not see it because of the indoor wall.

The rider was able to get the horse back but did not fall off.

I think you answered your own question here. Regardless of what the buyer told you, this horse is too much horse or not the type of ride they are looking for. It's best he was returned to you :yes:

I'll bet their perspective is the horse may have "bolted" even if he had been turned out and lunged. I have one that would so I'd probably pass on yours because I really don't want another. I also have one that would be unlikely to blink after standing in his stall for 2 weeks without turn out and not even being ridden.

So, my answer to the question is, no I wouldn't hold it against the horse but I would say this is not the horse for me because of his potential to be a ride I'm not looking for. While it may have been the first and last time he ever did it--I would not be willing to take the risk.

Now, if this buyer starts bad-mouthing the horse making it difficult to sell to someone else-then I'd have a problem. Otherwise I'd be very happy to have my horse home if the potential buyer felt he was not the right one-whatever their reason.

gillisdog
Jan. 1, 2010, 09:11 PM
No, I would not hold it against the horse. Obviously it will be nuts after five days inside. At the away shows, see all the horses out lunging in the early morning?

magnolia73
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:16 AM
Well, they aren't obligated to buy, and their loss if he is a nice horse that just needs turn out. Any reason to not buy is "legit", even if they decided their polo collection clashes with his color. So yes, it is legit.

There are horses that CAN be in for weeks and not do a thing when you get on. They are handy for people up north this time of year.

I'm not saying it was super smart on their part, they likely missed a nice horse. But it is not necessarily a no brainer to turn out a trial horse, particularly during this year's mud season.

All horses do stupid things. There was probably more than one reason they did not want your horse, this was just the most convenient reason.

LookinSouth
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:31 AM
When I asked some questions, it came out that the horse hasn't been out in 5 days it has been on trial. This horse is used to a lot of turn out and I told them that.

Is it legit to hold this against the horse?

I think many horses wouldn't put up with 5 days inside, no turnout and still be the same horse undersaddle. My own horse is about as safe and predictable as they come undersaddle .

Keep him in a stall for four days and you have a wild bucking, rearing, snorting maniac on your hands that can hardly be handwalked safely, let alone ridden.:eek:

At the same time, you as the seller do have responsibility in sending your horse on trial to a barn that will be a good match. I personally wouldn't be too keen on selling a horse that I knew thrived on turnout to a barn that doesn't offer it. It's not fair to the horse.

ETA: I find it odd that turnout etc... wasn't discussed prior to arranging the trial. Most buyers/sellers I know ask quite a bit of questions prior to sending a horse off to trial or taking a horse on trial to ensure it has a high capability of being a good match. You didn't know ahead of time that this barn didn't offer turnout? If I knew I had a horse that required turnout that would be one of the first questions I'd ask....how many hours of turnout a day does your barn offer etc..?? If this background information wasn't uncovered beforehand than I dont' feel that the buyer is at fault. My horse isn't for sale nor will he ever be, but if I was selling a horse like him that requires at least 8 hours of turnout a day I would make darn sure he wasn't going to a barn that would keep him in a stall for 4 days. jmho

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:38 AM
And, since when do you need to tell someone that daily turnout is required? Isn't that basic horse 101? I mean come on.

Sorry, late on here but, NO it is not basic horse 101 if you live, as many do, where there is no turn out/nobody to turn the horse out and bring it back in at the barn.

You can argue about being best for the horse but it's not an option many places, like out west or in suburban barns with no space. And alot of Europe, Hong Kong and various other locales.

Far as this case...sounds like the buyer backed out? That happens. That is, apparently, the way they intend to keep this horse so it's obvious it is not the horse for them and their situation.

When you send one on trial, the intended buyer is free to back out for any reason or no reason. Risk you take and why most charge a decent, non refundable deposit to discourage the more whimsical reasons to back out. Most also only allow the horse to known barns/trainers where they are sure management will continue as specified.

Possible this horse scared the intended buyer kid or is too much horse for her and how often she rides.

Let it go an move on. No blame game needed.

alteringwego
Jan. 2, 2010, 10:50 AM
Yes I would hold it against him. Being up not so much but bananas, yes! I can't guarantee turnout every day and frquently during the winter, the weather is just too rough- especially with a horse on trial.
It's buyer's decision and if the horse doesn't work in their program then they should pass.

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 11:06 AM
Admit I just went back and read the earlier posts (turning pages can be awfully slow some days). But that is not going to make much of a difference in my opinion.

The one question I have is did that horse get ridden in that indoor the 4 prior days? Was it lunged first as many trial or newly purchased horses are until the buyer is confident they know them well enough to anticipate any reaction? Did the new trainer ride it as well as the buyer? Or did it just stand in the stall for 4 days without stepping out?

If it's the latter, standing for 4 days with nothing? Not the horse. If it got ridden 4 times or even 3 if it was ridden the day before? In that indoor? That was bad behavior.

I always advocate never, ever making excuses for bad behavior in any horse under consideration. Have to say I'd send it back after it reacted like this in what should be getting to be familiar surroundings-oh, it can look and maybe brace a little. NOT bolt.

Mine have not been turnout dependent. Since I show, a lengthy, daily turnout dependent horse would be a PITA-mine behave even when fresh. I'd send one back that misbehaved and scared me after just 4 days-especially if it got ridden every day. I sold one that did that after 2 years of trying to school it out-never again.

Go Fish
Jan. 2, 2010, 01:31 PM
Bolting is a training issue. I'd pass on a horse that reacts to stress by bolting. Bolting is an issue that's very hard to overcome in a horse once it learns to use it as a way to escape, whether when riding, or on the ground. A bolting horse, generally speaking, is not suitable for many riders.

My gelding can get a bit "frisky" when he hasn''t had enough T/O, but he never, ever resorts to bolting because he's feeling fresh. Take the horse back and see if you can duplicate the environment which caused him to bolt and deal with it.

Your other option, of course, it to not send him out on trial again. But I would think the fact that he bolts would need to be disclosed to potential buyers.

hb
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:03 PM
Was this a bolt or a scoot? I think of a bolt as a horse running out of control. If the rider didn't fall off and was able to get him back quickly it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Was this careening around the arena or scooting a few strides?

It doesn't seem like 5 days is enough to adjust to a totally new routine. This horse was used to a lot of turnout and went away on trial with no turnout, so it wouldn't be out of bounds for him to be a little "up" after just 5 days. That doesn't mean he would be a mess at a 5 day show, and it doesn't mean that if he lived at a barn with no turn out for a while he wouldn't settle in and adjust.

But if they don't like the horse it doesn't matter what excuse they use. Just hope they aren't bad-mouthing the horse to other potential buyers.

Hilltopfarmva
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:23 PM
When I let horses go on trial, I require that the person signs a contract and that the horse gets daily turnout in a paddock alone. It is not fair to the horse that is used to being out, get locked up. Any horse on 24 hour a day stall bound is going to blow at some point. If it needs to stay locked up, then I suggest longer rides to get that extra energy out.

findeight
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:52 PM
Was this a bolt or a scoot? I think of a bolt as a horse running out of control. If the rider didn't fall off and was able to get him back quickly it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Was this careening around the arena or scooting a few strides?


We have only the OPs description, told to her by the buyer's trainer, that the horse bolted so I'd assume it took off.

We also cannot determine if the rider was scared by this or in over their heads or can just say it should not have bothered them and they need to cowboy up. We know nothing of that rider. For all we know they no longer want to ride this one as they are now scared of it-that's a good reason not to go thru with the sale.

Tell you what, I am quite accomplished and bolting scares the crap out of me, especially on a strange horse. Still say one ridden the last 4 days in a row or even 3 of those 4 days on a sales trial is usually working pretty hard and should not have been suddenly so fresh they bolted when there were no advance signs it was "too fresh". Not convinced it was fresh.

If there is any contemplating of doing any future showing involving being away from home, this would disqualify one for alot of buyers.

Incognito123
Jan. 2, 2010, 03:57 PM
To answer some questions:

At no time did I say that their horses don't get turn out. They all go out. They just didn't turn out my horse. Probably because he was on trial.

They did not lunge beforehand.

They rode 3 days and then off for day 4 spooked on day 5.

Horse stood in stall all the time except for being ridden for 1/2hr each time.

The horse was not being looked at as a horse that would do the multi day away shows.

It was more of a scoot 4 strides down the long side.

I told the buyers that he is on night turnout and they said that they were fine with that because most of the other horses were in at night so they would have plenty of fields to choose from. Lesson horses are out all the time.

Thank you to all who have given thoughtful reasonable opinions.

InstigatorKate
Jan. 2, 2010, 04:30 PM
So did they return the horse, or keep it anyway?