Calling all nutrition "experts" PHOTO timeline from body score 1.5 to 5. Need advice.

[flyracing]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45487999@N05/

I have descriptions, feed type and amounts listed in each photo description to try and make things less confusing. Let me know if something doesn't work right. Reading the below before the photo descriptions will likely not make a lot of sense :)

Basically, I need advice on where to go from here feed wise. I need to know what to take out to slow/stop the weight gain. I have been having issues getting his weight in the right spots, but the 3 cups of oil per day seemed to really hit the spot. So can I reduce the oil (I've heard the high amounts of fat are less fattening than lower amounts because of the way their metabolism works, but I have seen no literature on it)? Reduce the hay (but he loves his hay and is still on no turn out. He gets his hay in a 1.5" nibble net.) Reduce the alfalfa pellets? Reduce everything proportionately?

What I can't do is change the type of hay I am feeding until next summer. Thats what we have, so unless it's damaging the horse (clearly it's not, as he has improved) it has to stay. I am open to any suggestions on changing amount. The oat hay is tested at 15% nsc with sufficiently low nitrate levels and the orchard is 11% nsc, but only 6% protein. The alfalfa pellets are 17% protein and not specifically tested for nsc since I buy them at the feed store.

I forgot to add: Next week he is moving to a full care boarding stable so we will have an indoor to work in to get legged back up, BUT they only feed twice a day. They will continue to feed my hay though and put it in his nibble net. So the new feeding schedule is going to be twice a day and not every eight hours like it is now.

[Mersy]

I'm not a nutrition expert but maybe cut his alf pellets in half and reduce the oil a little.
His topline should start to fill in when you start working him. As he improves his muscle tone his belly will pull right up too.

[flyracing]

Thank You for your thoughtful reply Mersy. My first thoughts were to cut the alfalfa pellets in half (just enough to get the oil in him) and reduce the oil from 3 cups to 2 cups. I'm not sure I want to cut out the oil since he finally starting putting weight on in the correct areas (tends to be heavier in the crest area, but he wasn't gelded until 5, so I think that plays a role), so I like your idea in your post.

I look forward to reading others replies when the sun comes up! This is my first time having a horse with a diet including either alfalfa pellets or oil, so I appreciate other's experience.

[kookicat]

I'd give him a month or two in the new barn before changing anything. Let him get settled in before playing with his food. :)

Then after a month, I would start dropping the oil until he's on about a cup a day. I'd rather keep the fibre in his diet and drop the oil than the other way around.

Good luck- he's a cutie! :)

[RiverBendPol]

That's funny, I'd rather keep the oil and cut the pellets but you need those pellets to get the oil into him!! To me, the fat is the most important part of his diet. He looks to me like he needs less hay and to do some hill work. He's sound and healthy, right? So put him to work. Ask him to march, not wander, up and down hill. Ask him to tuck his nose in, put his head down and work his hind end and back over the hills. He should be walking an hour a day with a build up to 10-30 minutes of hill work every 3rd day. I'd work him like this for 2 months before asking him to do any ring work. Build the muscle, lose (some of) the tummy and he'll be ready for anything.

[jn4jenny]

I'd leave it just the way it is for four weeks, both to see how he acclimates to the new barn and to see how his metabolism will respond to being back in work. He's going to need the protein from the alf pellets to build muscle, and as he's EPSM he can't go without the oil.

If everything is looking good after 4 weeks, start backing off the alfalfa pellets.

[Tamara in TN]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45487999@N05/


I forgot to add: Next week he is moving to a full care boarding stable so we will have an indoor to work in to get legged back up, BUT they only feed twice a day. They will continue to feed my hay though and put it in his nibble net. So the new feeding schedule is going to be twice a day and not every eight hours like it is now.


all I can add is WOW and well done...he looks beautiful:)

[equineartworks]

he looks great flyracing!

I agree with jn4jenny and the others. Let his ride for a few weeks and see where you are then.

Have you considered emailing Dr. Beth Valentine or visiting her message board? I have found all the info she has to be very, very helpful. :)

[Laurierace]

That first pic wasn't even close to a 1.5 in my opinion not that it really matters since you have him looking good now. I would have put that closer to a 3-3.5.

[westernrider]

I would cut the hay back by at least 5 pounds-- at it would be the oat hay I would reduce if not eliminate.

I would keep him on the alfalfa, to provide lysine, which is the limiting amino acid. (amino acids are quite important to topline) It actually takes 8# of alfalfa to provide the lysine requirement, so I'd consider increasing alfalfa, while reducing the hay. Alfalfa does several really good things-- provides lysine, and holds water in the gut, which can keep things moving thus preventing colic.

I think you could reduce to 1 cup oil, or simply buy a high fat fortified grain.

Since he will be fed just 2x day, suggest that much of the hay be fed in the evening, so that he does not run out. Typically boarding places feed around 8 am and 5 pm-- which means 8 hours from breakfast to dinner, but 16 hours from dinner to breakfast. So give lots of hay at night!

[flyracing]

That's funny, I'd rather keep the oil and cut the pellets but you need those pellets to get the oil into him!! To me, the fat is the most important part of his diet. He looks to me like he needs less hay and to do some hill work. He's sound and healthy, right? So put him to work. Ask him to march, not wander, up and down hill. Ask him to tuck his nose in, put his head down and work his hind end and back over the hills. He should be walking an hour a day with a build up to 10-30 minutes of hill work every 3rd day. I'd work him like this for 2 months before asking him to do any ring work. Build the muscle, lose (some of) the tummy and he'll be ready for anything.

I love hills!! Sadly, I go to school in flat, flat, flat Oklahoma. There is said to be a mountain in Tulsa a couple of hours away, but I don't know if there is anything ridable if you know what I mean.

Ironically, despite the fact there aren't any hills, the vet made a point to say to keep him on flat ground until he's at 10 minutes of cantering (we are on week 1 of trotting, so have a ways to go) I guess she was thinking more that I should keep him on even ground and not thinking so much that I'd go finds some hills.

[flyracing]

That first pic wasn't even close to a 1.5 in my opinion not that it really matters since you have him looking good now. I would have put that closer to a 3-3.5.

I agree that he actually looks not too bad in the photo. It was actually my vet about a month after this photo was taken with my phone who declared him a 1 and said his chance of survival will be less than 5% even with the best in supportive care. I'm kinda glad I don't have any pictures from that time.

It was also weird to see a horse in such poor condition, but with a full belly of hay. Probably the fact that he never stopped eating his hay and supplements was the main part in his recovery. If one just looked at the belly he would be considered fat, but that is why "belly" is not part of the body condition scale.

You really have to see and feel the horse to know how much fat build up is (or isn't) on the spinous process as that is an important measuring tool of the Henneke scoring. Also because his head is not up, you can't see that he has clearly visible individual neck vertebrae in photo 1. If you had a photo from behind, you could clearly see individual vertebrae above the trail head and more accuratley see the spine.

He also looked much different than a starved horse that has been in horrible condition for months or years because their emaciation comes from lacking nutrition and will have damaged and misformed stuctures, my horse's came from the immune system attacking his own body. He had severe muscle die off (like a tieing up horse) for the first month with scary looking blood work results. The fat loss, I suppose was as a result of being so sick. There was no damage to the major ligaments or bone structure, so he maintained his structure in a way probably not often seen in a horse in such poor condition.

So I will go back to the part about the vet was the one to declare him a 1 on the Henneke Body Score system and leave it at that.