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View Full Version : on those rare TBs that get away from us (the US): meet Redoubtable



JER
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:25 PM
In a recent thread about breeding in the US vs. breeding in the UK, I briefly mentioned a class of TB stallion we just don't have here in the US: the sporthorse-type racing TB who begins his stud career siring show hacks, riding ponies, polo ponies, point-to-pointers, Anglo-Arabs, hunters and whatever else. Some of these stallions, like Java Tiger or Miner's Lamp or Criminal Law or Primitive Rising, become top sires of eventers.

Meet Redoubtable (http://www.endhousestud.co.uk/stallions/redoubtable/index.htm). Bred in the US but raced in the UK and Europe -- 188 times. In his final year of racing, at age 14 (!), he had 15 starts, and won once.

On his retirement, the Racing Post gave him a nice write-up (http://www.endhousestud.co.uk/stallions/redoubtable/racingpost.htm). Sport Horse GB gave him an elite stallion grading and he was off to a second career in showing classes.

As he's only been at stud since 2006, his offspring are still young but are successful in the in-hand showing classes.

midnightride
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:34 PM
IMO Grey Dawn II explains it all....... :)
would go to the ends of the earth for that guy so close!!!!!
hummmmm need to look into this :):)

Divine Comedy
Dec. 11, 2009, 10:44 PM
Wow, I really hope that some of his progeny filters over to the US by the time I am ready to buy another horse (which could be anywhere from four to ten years from now...)

JER
Dec. 12, 2009, 03:36 PM
Redoubtable's race record (http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=84376) from the Racing Post.

(It goes on and on and on...)

ksbadger
Dec. 12, 2009, 03:46 PM
When I was a kid in the West Country, I thought all TBs started at 17 hands - reason being I only saw 'chasers. The OTTBs around here all seem to be under 16 hands & definitely not so heavily built.

cottagefarm
Dec. 12, 2009, 03:47 PM
Thanks for posting JER.

I am working with a stallion owner right now that owns a great TB stallion that I think could work for warmblood, sport horses etc and had a great race career. Not quite the long run the Redoubtable had but racing over here is a little different kettle of fish!

TB or not TB?
Dec. 12, 2009, 04:09 PM
Plus, look at the picture of him and his mini-friend!! (http://www.endhousestud.co.uk/stallions/redoubtable/images/10-03-06_1010.jpg) WAY to cute. How can you pass that up in a stallion? ;)

TampaBayEquine
Dec. 12, 2009, 04:24 PM
IMO Grey Dawn II explains it all....... :)
would go to the ends of the earth for that guy so close!!!!!
hummmmm need to look into this :):)

Maybe you would like this mare ?

Magical Crown- 1993

http://www.pedigreequery.com/magical+crown

Her dam sire is Grey Dawn. I just received an email that she just became available from HPAF - see the Florida TB's need help thread....

AppJumpr08
Dec. 12, 2009, 05:22 PM
I wonder if they've considered freezing semen and shipping it to the US... EMCO's stallion roster could use another nice TB... :D

JER
Dec. 12, 2009, 05:35 PM
AppJumpr (and others), EMCO has a survey up on their website asking breeders/aspiring breeders about interest in 'new' (to EMCO/US) stallions.

http://www.emcostallionservices.com/survey.html

Also, I'm planning a more general post on the current and newer generations of eventing stallions. While the US doesn't have many stallions who are actively competing, the UK/France/Germany have a varied group of entires -- usually from proven eventing lines -- competing at the **/***/**** levels. I thought it might be useful to compile a good reference list.

AppJumpr08
Dec. 12, 2009, 05:42 PM
AhHA! Good to know :) Thanks!


I just wish that the US racing industry would put more value on racing horses past their 3 year old year... I'm sure there are stallions in this country who could have long and successful careers, but are never given the chance in the rush to get them into the breeding shed. :sigh:

JER
Dec. 12, 2009, 06:22 PM
I just wish that the US racing industry would put more value on racing horses past their 3 year old year... I'm sure there are stallions in this country who could have long and successful careers, but are never given the chance in the rush to get them into the breeding shed. :sigh:

There are so many factors that feed into this. Redoubtable was owned by his trainer, David Chapman, who was something of a specialist in keeping sprinters going into their double-digit years. (Chapman is now retired but his granddaughter, Ruth Carr, has taken over the operation. Her website (http://www.ruthcarrracing.co.uk/index.htm) is terrific and features a section called 'Where are they now? (http://www.ruthcarrracing.co.uk/wherenow.htm)' that follows their horses after their racing careers are over.) But in the US, most horses live at the track or at a training track and (1) it's expensive and (2) various rules govern whether/how often horses have to be entered in races to continue living at the track. In the UK, horses go to the track for race meets but otherwise, live at home and train on the gallops, which are more forgiving than a track used daily by 1000 horses.

Regional stallions in the US tend to be lesser-quality 'sons of' and there's no real dual-purpose (flat and jump racing) or multi-purpose (as in Redoubtable) market. Good NH stallions are often failed flat stallions -- but they're almost always good sporthorse types and they have a track record of producing jumpers.

And what ksbadger says is true: if your only exposure to TBs was at Cheltenham, you'd think all TBs were 16.2hh and up and very substantially built. But these are mature horses who go long distances and jump big fences. The downhill bullet-shape doesn't usually succeed in those races.

midnightride
Dec. 12, 2009, 10:02 PM
AhHA! Good to know :) Thanks!


I just wish that the US racing industry would put more value on racing horses past their 3 year old year... I'm sure there are stallions in this country who could have long and successful careers, but are never given the chance in the rush to get them into the breeding shed. :sigh:

i am plotting sending a mare to Einstein just for this point!!!!! :yes:

vineyridge
Dec. 13, 2009, 09:31 AM
There is a Sadler's Wells son named Northern Spur who is a pretty good bet as a stallion for sport horses. He's standing in NY State somewhere and has won some very long races and competed up to age 6 or so.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/northern+spur
He even has a negative dosage CD. And is from the wonderful Aloe FF.

He's not going to be popular with US race breeders because he brings things that are not particularly desired in US racing.

cottagefarm
Dec. 13, 2009, 09:48 AM
i am plotting sending a mare to Einstein just for this point!!!!! :yes:

MNR I'm with you. I love Einstein.
My friend manages Adena. Maybe we can sneak the girls in when he goes to the shed :yes:

mortebella
Dec. 13, 2009, 06:39 PM
Personally, I'm fascinated by the fact that he raced 188 times and is still sound. That's just the kind of breeding we should NOT be exporting! LOL.

JER
Dec. 13, 2009, 09:16 PM
There is a Sadler's Wells son named Northern Spur who is a pretty good bet as a stallion for sport horses. He's standing in NY State somewhere and has won some very long races and competed up to age 6 or so.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/northern+spur
He even has a negative dosage CD. And is from the wonderful Aloe FF.

He's not going to be popular with US race breeders because he brings things that are not particularly desired in US racing.

Northern Spur won the BC Turf. I remember that because I had money on him.

But, according to the Dutchess Farms page (http://www.dutchessviewsfarm.com/stallions/northernspurire.html), his stud fee is $3000.

Robby Johnson
Dec. 13, 2009, 09:40 PM
Northern Spur won the BC Turf. I remember that because I had money on him.

But, according to the Dutchess Farms page (http://www.dutchessviewsfarm.com/stallions/northernspurire.html), his stud fee is $3000.

I saw this horse in person at True North Farm during Rolex, 2005. We were fortunate enough to be offered lodging at the guesthouse of TNF that year by the very gracious owner. She ran an ad in the 2005 Rolex program for both Northern Spur and another really gorgeous chestnut stallion whose name is escaping me now. I will have to dig.

I really liked both of the stallions, for different reasons, but remember the one mentioned as a really beautiful bay with chrome - not huge, maybe 16 - 16.1 - and very much in possession of "the look of eagles." I got to pet him in his stall and he was really lovely. I would definitely put him on a crossbred mare.

JER and I discussed this way back when!

Toadie's mom
Dec. 13, 2009, 09:54 PM
I saw this horse in person at True North Farm during Rolex, 2005. We were fortunate enough to be offered lodging at the guesthouse of TNF that year by the very gracious owner. She ran an ad in the 2005 Rolex program for both Northern Spur and another really gorgeous chestnut stallion whose name is escaping me now. I will have to dig.

I really liked both of the stallions, for different reasons, but remember the one mentioned as a really beautiful bay with chrome - not huge, maybe 16 - 16.1 - and very much in possession of "the look of eagles." I got to pet him in his stall and he was really lovely. I would definitely put him on a crossbred mare.

JER and I discussed this way back when!

I was just getting ready to PM you and ask...Didn't that stallion used to be at True North?! The chestnut stallion (who I actually liked a little more) was The Wicked North. I think he's at Old Friends now.

vineyridge
Dec. 13, 2009, 11:20 PM
I just did the True Nicks for a mare of mine and Northern Spur and it came up A+. The foal would also have the Rasmussen factor to Special through Nureyev and Fairy Bridge, sex balanced and top and bottom, which is SPECIAL! Although I'm not into racing at all, but still . . . Might make a nice chaser . . .

SEPowell
Dec. 13, 2009, 11:35 PM
I saw this horse in person at True North Farm during Rolex, 2005. We were fortunate enough to be offered lodging at the guesthouse of TNF that year by the very gracious owner. She ran an ad in the 2005 Rolex program for both Northern Spur and another really gorgeous chestnut stallion whose name is escaping me now. I will have to dig.

I really liked both of the stallions, for different reasons, but remember the one mentioned as a really beautiful bay with chrome - not huge, maybe 16 - 16.1 - and very much in possession of "the look of eagles." I got to pet him in his stall and he was really lovely. I would definitely put him on a crossbred mare.

JER and I discussed this way back when!

That's nice to hear about Northern Spur. I've wondered about him often and wish they had conformation pictures of him on their website.

vineyridge
Dec. 13, 2009, 11:50 PM
As to Northern Spur, I've seen him in a few stallion auctions with a very reasonable starting price. Of course, you'd have to get your mare to NY State which would add considerably if you're shipping from the Deep Middle South.

JER
Dec. 14, 2009, 12:02 AM
Of course, you'd have to get your mare to NY State which would add considerably if you're shipping from the Deep Middle South.

Which is a perfect illustration of my earlier point about the differences between the UK and the US.

vineyridge, you'd have to ship 1000+ miles to get to Northern Spur. And that's not all that far in the US.

In the UK, it's just over 800 miles from the tip of Cornwall to John O'Groats in Scotland. :)

vineyridge
Dec. 14, 2009, 12:32 AM
Well, there's something else depressing about US TB breeding when you're looking for sport horses.

I found this mare while poking around. http://www.pedigreequery.com/puget+sound GB bred, and sent to the US for breeding. She had lots of foals but they were pretty much all exported hither and thither. She herself was sent to the Philipines for her last three foals. She's also got produce in Australia, and Ireland and Britain.

When I see her pedigree, I see great possibilities for both sport horses and race horses. But she doesn't have any descendants in the US who bred on and STAYED here. And she was bred to some very expensive US stallions. But since her offspring didn't match US standards, the line was allowed to die here. Which is very shortsighted in my opinion because the good stuff is close up and could appear in the next generation or two with the proper mates.

BasqueMom
Dec. 14, 2009, 02:46 AM
How cool...didn't realize any of Grey Dawn's progney was still alive. He's the grandsire of my Basque (Basque Fantasee). Big boned, sound after five years of racing, great worth ethic and manners, unflappable and his sire,
Bounding Basque, raced for 4 years in the 1980's. I can only find one
stallion in the US by Bounding Basque and he stands in NM.

Now if only I could win a lottery and find a lovely mare to breed to Redoubtable..........

JER
Dec. 14, 2009, 11:14 PM
Northern Spur has a stallion son in the UK who'll be standing for sport/show/racing: Worthily (http://www.groomsbridgestud.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71:worthily&catid=40:stallions&Itemid=60)

The same stud stands a Sadler's Wells son, High Tension (http://www.groomsbridgestud.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61:high-tension&catid=40:stallions&Itemid=60), who carries the very typical (and attractive) Sadler's Wells look.

(And High Tension stands for £350, not $3000.)

Robby Johnson
Dec. 20, 2009, 01:21 AM
The same stud stands a Sadler's Wells son, High Tension (http://www.groomsbridgestud.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61:high-tension&catid=40:stallions&Itemid=60), who carries the very typical (and attractive) Sadler's Wells look.

This horse looks quite a bit like Northern Spur (moreso than the picture of Worthily, who is actually by Northern Spur). I recall that same fat sausage look ... a bit on the "raw" side of things!

But what I really like, is that he's out of a mare who is by Fappiano.

REPEAT BROKEN RECORD: I love Fappiano horses!