forward issues, barefoot, and hoof tester response

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

Ensure his back isn't sore BEFORE anyone rides him

Ensure you have a saddle and tack that fits

Ensure you get a good farrier and have his hoof management appropriate to his needs and what you intend to do.

If he needs shoes, then shoe him. If he needs traction then get some traction.

It sounds though like he's napping. The fact that he might have a sore back and feet won't help with that one but if that is the case then it's a classic scenario of the horse doesn't trust you not to put him in a situation that is going to do him harm.

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

New horse, new environment.

Horses are flight and fright animals.

They have to trust their environment and their rider

It's not uncommon for nervous or new horses to nap in the circumstances you describe.

It's not a case of him thinking you will harm him but he doesn't trust you and doesn't think you won't put him in a situation where he might be caused harm. He's nervous .... just acting on his flight and fright instinct and wants to return to the safety of home rather than go forward and out.

other than an occasional dirty look when I really push on that bump. Horses have limited ways of expressing their opinions and he's telling you it hurts. Sit on it and it will hurt more!

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

So he's got a problem either weight bearing or with the rider.

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

Not necessarily so.

[caballus]

While imbalanced hooves can and will cause back issues its always a good idea to check the hooves first. If they are not sensitive to hoof testers then I would have the back checked. But understand that even if you have the back looked at and adjusted if the hooves aren't balanced properly (trimmed correctly whether shod or not) then the adjustment won't hold and you'll be back to square one shortly after the adjustment. So, first place I would check would be the hooves and then go from there to the back.

[Fharoah]

Horses can be foot sore or even heal sore and not respond to hoof testers according to a few unniversity professors I know. You could try a couple days of bute and he if his attitude changes when ridding on bute.

[fourmares]

Yes horses can be foot sore and no respond to testers. Since he started this behavior about the same time that you pulled his shoes I think that putting shoes back on is a great thing to try. The lump under the saddle is also suspicious. Does he react to palpation of the lump?

[CosMonster]

If he's giving you dirty looks when you palpate that lump I would probably quit riding him until it goes away. Dirty looks means it is uncomfortable. How are you palpating his back? When did the lump develop? Did you have a PPE done?

Hoof pain could also be a factor even though he is not reactive to hoof testers. If he's always been in shoes he might need some adjustment time to get used to going barefoot. Did you give him any time off after pulling the shoes? What type of footing do you usually ride him on? Does he get more reluctant on harder or rockier footing? Does he ever falter or take short strides?

Because you seem to know your saddle was not fitting and because of the lump he has developed, my guess (and of course not seeing him that's all it is) is that he's got back pain. His hooves may be tender as well but honestly the lump on his back would concern me more. If he were mine, going by what you've said here, I'd probably give him a week or so off and then take a look at that lump again. Of course as always your safest bet is to call your vet on out.

It's also possible that he's just testing you as sometimes that doesn't show up for a bit until the horse gets settled in to his new environment, but I'd definitely rule out the physical issues first since it seems very likely that he has at least one.

[Posting Trot]

There seem to be a lot of possible problems going on at once, and it's going to be hard to disentangle the different possible causes.

One possible cause that hasn't been mentioned so far is the "new horse rule": a new horse that has just been moved is often very well behaved for the first month or so, and then (once the horse has developed some comfort level at the new situation) he'll try to push the boundaries a bit both with other horses in the field and with handlers. (Oops, just noticed that CosMonster mentioned this just above).

Also, if the horse is now doing more work than he was before you bought him, he could just be plain muscle sore, particularly if you've been doing a lot of lunging or small circles under saddle.

The back could definitely be sore from a poorly fitting saddle and a sore back can show up as all kinds of wonkiness and bad behavior.

Feet that hurt sometimes do not respond to hoof testers, although that's often when something else hurts so much that the horse can't afford to show the hoof pain.

Good luck.

[Tom Bloomer]

Yes, weight bearing because his hooves hurt (maybe more with suspension/concussion), because he is saddle sore, or because he doesn't trust me? That is the mystery...and why I wondered whether horses who are hoof sore due to being barefoot will always respond to hoof testers or not. Just trying to rule out something!
It depends on how the tool is used and the skill and judgment of the operator. I can get just about any horse to "respond" to hoof testers. However, in many cases the "response" is quite subtle - especially if the horse is distracted by other "issues."

[schimmel]

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[Rick Burten]

what does he do when you ride him bareback?

[Thomas_1]

If he has a lump on his back that is responding to pressure then it's sore and he doesn't want saddling or sitting on until it's gone.

A good fitting saddle is the solution to that NOT a saddle pad.

Indeed if you're riding with an English saddle, then they're specifically designed NOT to have great big pads etc under them.

They should have just a light saddle cloth or numnah and not great quilted or sheepskin things.

Now there's a little too much to rule out here but you need to start ruling things out.

Lump on back and trying to find a saddle that fits - not normal and that needs sorting. Sounds like a saddle fitter is the way to go in any event. He really shouldn't be doing anything weight bearing if he has a lump on his back. A lump needs investigating. But I'm having difficulty imagining what this "lump" is like or where it is? Photo might help.

Also, he is willing, and even offers, trot and canter with tack on the lunge (minus rider).
So are you saying he's perfectly sound when he's lunged minus a rider? If so then get a trainer to long rein him out first in the arena and see what he's like. Walk, trot and canter and both reins. Is he sound or sore? Is he reluctant to go forward and transition pace and change the rein there or not?

If he's unsound in the arena it should be easy to a trained eye to see if it's foot related or back pain.

If he's sound in the arena then get the trainer to long rein him out and see if he goes forward willingly or if he's cautious and napping.

If he's sound on the lunge in the arena then see what he's like bareback. Still sound then it's saddle fit.

If he's sound in the arena but reluctant to go forwards when he's long reined out then it's a behavioural thing and napping and that can be worked on with confident handling and getting to know each other.

If he's footsore then get your farrier out to have a look. If he's a problem with foot balance or is compensating in any way for being sore, then that in itself may make him sore elsewhere e.g. back.

[monstrpony]

I have a similar case. He went okay barefoot for almost two years, then started some intermittent unevenness and ill behavior (reluctance to go fwd, bouncing in transitions, generally seemed uncomfortable). Two good, experienced farriers hoof-tested him and said there was no reaction. Vet blocked him, he was much more willing to go fwd (difference could be seen on longe), recommended shoes and pads. Horse is much happier (willing to go fwd, less ill, better transitions) now that he has shoes, pads, soft pour-in fill.

Anyhow, yes, it is entirely possible for a horse to be negative to hoof testers in a case like yours, and still have a soundness issue.

[Bogie]

You changed a lot of things all at the same time, which makes it difficult to assess the situation:

- new home, with new footing.
- no front shoes
- saddle fit issues.

I think the fact that started getting pissy when you took the shoes off would lead me to believe that he's foot sore. I'll be curious to see whether he's better when they go back on.

However, your saddle must have really been bothering him if he developed a lump on his back. Even if you don't get a vet in (not a bad idea), I'd at least have a massage therapist look at his back and help you release any tension that's accumulated there.

I would not have a trainer try to ride him through "issues" with so many obvious potential sources of pain.

[sunhawk]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Yes, I had a prepurchase. He is in less work with me than he was prior to coming here (less advanced work and probably less hours undersaddle too). I am going to do some more investigating today, but he seems to have no reaction to general palpation of the muscles along the sides of the spine but when I push hard with my finger on the lump he does sink away a bit. I will check again on that.

I would say the footing we have has a bit less cushion. I gave him a day off after removing the shoes. Then I rode him once and he was good, then the next day he was awful. I put him on bute for a week and rode him during that time. He was reluctant but not awful. Take away the Bute and he was nappy again. He looks like he is moving fine on the lunge and willingly trots and canters (without Bute).

>Possible he wasn't foot sore that first ride, but developed enough low grade inflamation in the soles, that the next day hurt too much to move out. Borrow hoof boots, or make duct tape booties for him, and see if he's happier, then you know whether you need to put shoes back on him. If a horse is sore in both front feet, they won't limp, they will just be reluctant to go forward.


But at the same time I have been trying a few different saddles and Mr. Lump showed up. Many of the threads I have read regarding the lump say it takes a lot of time to disappear and that a fleece pad seems to help keep them from coming back. He was ridden with a fleece half-pad between the saddle and pad, so I will try that.

> Make sure that you are distributing your weight evenly in the saddle, you may have a collapsed hip, hence the lump on one side instead of both. Even if the saddle fits great, that can still create soreness, and your crookedness may make him unwilling to move forward. It could also compound so that his willingness to work for you has eroded.

I have tentatively decided to give him a week off and see how he is (should I lunge??), if no better than one more week off and then I will put shoes on again. See how that goes and if no better I will have the vet out. I will also try to locate the area saddle fitter in the mean time. Does that sound like a good plan?? So depressing....I do believe he is a good natured, willing boy at heart and I think he really is hurting somewhere.

I have never heard of the new horse "testing syndrome". None of the 6 horses I have had have ever exhibited that behavior. But I guess it could be the case... The testing of your other six horses may have been more subtle

[schimmel]

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[pj]

To complicate matters, he developed a lump under the saddle about three inches off the spine, where I sit. I think I have found a better saddle for him now, and I got a Port-Lewis pad which I will try tomorrow. I will also have my instructor ride him for the whole lesson this week to see if she can ferret out whether he is testing me (I just hate to think that...)
ANY advice??

Sore back would be my first guess and the first thing I would address.
If he has a lump under where you sit the ride couldn't be enjoyable for him.

[Bogie]

Duct tape won't make a bit of difference. They will not give any cushioning and they will not restrict the hoof.

I liked the idea that someone gave you about putting on hoof boots. Especially if you don't want to put shoes back on.

I don't think this is something that you can diagnose yourself. I suggest having a vet look at your horse.


I palpated his back last night-no response. Also, absolutely no response when I pushed on the lump. And I pushed hard. I actually did think of putting some duct tape on his hooves to see if he felt more comfortable, but I am not sure if that is a good idea-might it constrict the hooves too much?

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

Why are you putting side reins on a horse that most likely has a bad back?

Or rather I should say WHY THE HECK!!!

You do know it's not normal for a horse to have a lump on it's back from a saddle don't you???

[schimmel]

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[Thomas_1]

I put the side reins on for DIAGNOSTIC purposes. him. :eek::no::eek::no::confused::confused:


Well I never!

I'd suggest that you probably need to rethink your methodology.

[marta]

during a really bad episode of laminitis.
the same mare would stumble across a gravel driveway.

[Gry2Yng]

If it were me, I would put the shoes back on. It is the first thing you changed that you can control. Removing the shoes is when the problem started. Once he feet are in shoes you can judge the other changes you have made in his life. Sore feet can make a horse back sore/body sore.

[schimmel]

Please explain how putting loose side reins on a horse for 5 minutes in order to determine whether working with contact was part of the problem constitutes a flaw in my methodology. No, don't even bother....this is why I lurk most of the time.

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. Consider the thread closed.

[chirojerry]

Your horse has 4 weeks into a barefoot transition if you want to keep him barefoot you might try a pair of hoof boots with pads. A pair can be had for under $100. Cheaper than a reset of the shoes. I good equine sports therapist should be able to help with the muscle injury and saddle fit.

Jerry

[goeslikestink]

Thomas,
Yes, I know it is not normal for a horse to have lumps under the saddle. If you are really interested in the topic you can do a search and see that dozens of people have had this issue, many stating that it is benign and not causing the horse pain. I am doing what I can, short of having the vet out to inject it, to help him heal.
I put the side reins on for DIAGNOSTIC purposes. I didn't know if his whole back was sore, or just the lump itself. As you can see, I learned something. I have no plans to drill him in side reins while he has riding time off. I want to keep him moving and somewhat fit so I will continue to exercise him.



matey lumps come from pressure - also just becuase you think its benign is ok benign relates to cancerous lumps benign means of one root maglinant means many roots

now thinking as the same as thomas 1 - then this horse has alump ynder his saddle where you sit - which would surgest a saddle fitting problem

get a mastercrafts a saddle fitter to come in and access the horse and you failing that take your saddle to be looked at by one as they can tell by just loooking at it how you ride your horse

the next thing as regards to sitting - wher the lump is to look at you and how you ride the horse as you might more often than not - be uncentre ie off balanced which in turn makes the horse of as your not sitting centrally

most importantly a horse with abad back or lump should be looked at via a vet
and not just taken for red its alump - lumps on the back if not rested completely as in pressure points /sores will cause perminant damage to the back regions
and a week isnt long enough try one month at the least

can take up to three/ 4mths for pressure sores to go and until they have gone you dont ride or work the horse befair to the horse and repsect that hes a beast of burden and has to carry you for whatever when ever so in the best interest of the horse then make sure his equipment fits and he as the correct welfare ie vets farriers good management

you do not put side reins on ahorse especially with a bad back
you say dozens of people ride horses with lumps and to do a search matey then perhaps they lack the respect of ther partnership with the horse as one cant do things or acheive things if the horse is uncomfortable and down right creul to ride a horse with a lump on his back under the saddle this would make him shout at you as hard as he can either by napping, bucking rearing hollwing up etc etc and of course the unwillingness to work

lets see- you have a lump on your back and iwill will add 15stones in weight just for arguement sake and ask you to carry that around for at least an hour
you to would be uncomfortable and want to donk your stuff ie back pack

lumps dont always get injected if your a horse owner you would know that
if your a good horseperson then you would realise that this needs resting and wouldnt work the horse until its healed - but you are not so its not going to go away anytime soon- rest means rest the horse and no work

one of my pet hates is ill fitting tack and a sore horse as people will get rid of a horse for being a git when they themsleves caused the problem
this comes under the border line of abuse and believe me i have re trianed a more horses with issues due to owners that dont give a dam as long as they can ride forget the horse then dump it when its sore or in pain


and i strongly surgest you take in what thomas 1 says and also what tom bloomer said


your horse should be your partner in any equine field as thats why you brought him then its up to you to see he gets the care he need as sounds like you to cut corrners with vets and farrier plus the horse it self and just get what you can from him sorry to sound harsh but that really is no excuse to write and say dozens of people ride horses with lumps
a- it depends where on the body but if on the back under the saddle
bit obvious as to why so you stop riding and sort the tack out and your position of how you ride the horse

i have seen many saddles as i am sure thomas 1 has that are lumpy , one sided
or to flat underneath as in rock hard or saddle on horse that are to small to wide to long to narrow and the horse suffers same to with bridle and bits all either to long to short etc as with bits people tend to forget to get the correct size and width for the horse or have so low it bangs then they wonder why there horse acting like git - so i would if it was banging against me teeth all day and the rider had the reins and bit rings up to me ears to try to keep the bit in my mouth

its the same with a saddle people will think that adding pad is going to stop it slipping , or extra gullet all this causes pain to a horse as you havent solved the problem only masked it until one day it gets into something else ie like a lump then you leave that as a nothing and time goes on and then one day that lump is permenant damage and the horse life has been one off pain and eventually till his death

[schimmel]

My, what a freaky, stream of consciousness reply. In general, punctuation is appreciated. This is like the 2nd time I have posted on this board and I am getting such upsetting responses. I am an experienced horse person and an animal lover to the core. I have allowed you to make me feel awful. I am deleting myself from this board and will go back to the other, more supportive and understanding board. Just nasty. Good bye and good luck.

[chaltagor]

My, what a freaky, stream of consciousness reply. In general, punctuation is appreciated. This is like the 2nd time I have posted on this board and I am getting such upsetting responses.

Oh noes! I hope stinky's post doesn't give you nightmares. You poor poor creature, to be subjected to such horribleness in such an intangible place.

ps the poster you insulted is one of the most equine knowlegable people on this board reading her posts is well worth it! :yes:

[Gry2Yng]

Just throwing in my two cents, cause I can't stop thinking about this thread (how sad is that).

gls is a knowledgeable horseperson, no doubt, but it is sad to me to see that knowledge lost in a post that, regardless of intent, belittles the OP.

I have no idea as to the OP's background except that she said she is experienced and has at least 6 prior horses. As horsemen, were we to encounter a horse that had been around the block a few times, but somehow had never truly learned a half halt, we wouldn't scream at the horse and beat it and throw up our hands in exasperation and expect that the horse would learn the half halt because we were so incensed that yet another three star horse managed to be successful without a half halt? No, we would go back to the beginning and explain it to the horse. Not his fault no one taught him a half halt.

My point being, I hate it when we jump all over someone for being ignorant. And we can only blame ourselves if we can't find a way to kindly teach someone what they don't know. None of us was born with the knowledge as to the number of roots in a benign tumor versus a malignant tumor. (I just learned it reading this thread.) OP came to this board for help, and probably to learn. My guess is she was sorting thru the suggestions given by Thomas in a page one post and then decided to add sidereins to give herself another data point.

She was trying to help her horse. Probably extremely disappointed that her new horse can't be ridden and desperately looking for an answer. She did searches regarding lumps and found information (accurate or not I can't say).

I will admit, my idiot (not calling the op an idiot) tolerance used to be pretty low. I guess now that I have a 2 year old I realize that you don't know ice is slippery until you run and fall on it for the first time. God bless you if you do it twice, you are destined to be an eventer. :D

I can't own enough horses and have enough experiences in one lifetime to learn all that is discussed on this board. I am grateful for the knowledge. I am also grateful to those who have patiently taught me the things about which I was ignorant. My horses live better lives because of it.

[Foxtrot's]

Nicely said.

[caballus]

Ditto! *** applause ***