Experience with treeless saddles

[GreenTeaLeaves]

Anyone here use a treeless saddle on a big mover? I have a horse that's hard to fit saddle-wise. Tried a treeless and it wouldn't stay put, to the point that I considered the saddle dangerous. Was it just that particular treeless, or is this a problem with horses that have a lot of suspension?

[equineartworks]

I used a Marshall on a QH that was, well, spunky. Felt like a DREAM! Loved that saddle and felt I had amazing contact. Now mind you this was a western, so I don't know about the others. I know DGRH has a treeless Dressage saddle. Can't remember what maker though :confused:

[Guilherme]

Anyone here use a treeless saddle on a big mover? I have a horse that's hard to fit saddle-wise. Tried a treeless and it wouldn't stay put, to the point that I considered the saddle dangerous. Was it just that particular treeless, or is this a problem with horses that have a lot of suspension?

The rigid tree in a saddle serves many purposes. The primary purpose is weight distribution. You just found out about another one: stability for the rider.

Once upon a time all saddles were "treeless." Trees were invented to make horses more useful. They do this in many ways. In this case there is wisdom in history.

G.

[Daydream Believer]

All treeless saddles are not created equal. Generally the more you pay, the better the saddle...same as with any saddle. A common problem with stability in some of the cheaper/older treeless models was the lack of a gullet. Now, most of the newer ones have that or they have a pad that goes with the saddle that creates the gullet.

I ride in a Fhoenix... a high end dressage treeless model and it is one of the most stable and best riding saddles I've ever ridden in. It is also remarkably comfortable. I've used it for years now on a variety of horses with no problems at all.

[NevadaRider]

I used to have an Ansur, but had to move to something with more stability. I went to a Timberline dressage model and have been very happy with it. The Timberlines have evolved from the OrthoFlex design. I wanted a saddle that would accommodate many different horses without adjustments and I've been very pleased with its versatility.

Another selling point was a particular mare whose lousy attitude and movement in the Ansur, made a complete turnaround after about 5 minutes in the Timberline.

[Nanerpus]

I had a Fhoenix - my Mom got it for me as a gift and it was $$$:eek: having it sent in from England.

It last 2 months before I sold it. I just couldn't feel my horse beneath me, I felt like I had NO support - my lower back killed after all rides, and if my horse decided to flip out while riding him down to the indoor, well I found I couldn't "stick" like I usually can!

My instructor, who also had one, blames riding in her treeless saddle for several years as aggravating her bone spur and now she can barely walk (needs hip replacement). Not saying it causes it, but having a serious hip problem in my R hip myself I don't want to take my chances.

I have a custom-fitted, lightweight saddle for my pony and it stays put, she's happy, and when I massage her her back is RARELY sore at all. I wouldn't go back from trees.

[Bluey]

A friend that works at local sale barns had a horse flip over on him and broke is hip and leg badly.
Once back riding, he could not ride in his regular saddle, so he got a Marshal treeless saddle and he could ride in that one without pain.
Since he spends a good part of 16 hours on a horse, he said that with the treeless saddle, he had to change horses more often, or they would become sore on their backs.

He is now back in a regular saddle and those don't make the horses sore.

Maybe that the treeless saddle didn't protect horse's backs well enough was from the way he rode when he was crippled.

I would want to try one for a while, before you buy it.

[JB]

As it should now be apparent, not all treeless saddles are the same, not all riders like them, not all horses like them.

If you really want to give treeless a try, you can't just dislike the first one you sit in and declare them all unsuitable. By the same token, neither can you declare them the next best thing to sliced bread just because you've never found a bad one.

Quite a few times I've heard riders say they don't like them because their horse moves too big in one ;)

Some of them do take a little creative padding to find the right combination, and not all riders are willing (or have the knowledge) to do that.

[Heart's Journey]

I used to have a very wide heavily muscled mutton withered QH and couldn't find a saddle to fit him without causing issues. It got so bad I rode him bareback for about 6 months trying to find a saddle to fit him. I tried 3 different Orthoflex saddles, even drove him to a saddle shop and tried on 25 different saddles. Back in '96, While on a camping trip, I tried a Bob Marshall treeless saddle and it fit! I rode him for the next 4 years with that saddle and even on a trip to TN in the mountains and he was never sore from it. I do use the Skito saddle pads as they have shoulder inserts.
When I got home from that camping trip, I bought one and am still using that same saddle, though I no longer have that horse. I've had it on at least 20 different horses and it fit everyone of them.
I agree that it does make a difference in which saddle it is, if you're using the right pad and how the rider sits. I've been riding 40+ years and rode bareback alot, so I don't have issues with it. Treeless aren't for everyone but they certainly fill a niche for some of us.

[GreenTeaLeaves]

It's good to hear others' opinions. I would not try another treeless, due to the lack of stability. The lack of stability is a huge minus for me, especially on a horse that naturally has so much motion. I also disliked the amount of padding on the saddle itself -- I felt like I couldn't feel the horse at all! There may be other saddles with less padding, but the lack of stability would still remain an issue. I could see it working well on a smooth gaited horse I guess.

If I weren't frustrated with conventional saddles I wouldn't have tried a treeless in the first place. When are saddle makers going to get their heads out of the sand and stop making so many saddles for table top backs?!

[Daydream Believer]

If you weren't planning to try another treeless, what is the point of this thread? That last comment truly surprises me. We, who have used treeless saddles, are telling you that stability is NOT an issue with all of them. JB's post is excellent...just like any saddle...they work for some folks but not all folks. You can't ride in one saddle and label them all the same...treed or treeless...that's nuts.

I tried two Ansur models before I switched to the Fhoenix and now you could not get me back in an Ansur dressage model again. No way. I've since ridden in Barefoots and Freeforms and again, it's preference and the horse's back that decides things.

My stallion, who is very sensitive, cannot go in a treed saddle...doesn't matter if it is professionally fitted. I put it on him, and he pins his ears and does not want to move forward. I put on a treeless and he's back to normal. I think he has made his preference very clear to me. Interestingly, he was about the same in all the treeless models I tried...it was for ME and my comfort that I ended up in a Fhoenix.

As for treeless saddles causing back damage in people...that's kind of nuts to make that assumption that it might happen to everyone who rides in one. I can't stand riding in treed saddles now as it feels like I have a block of wood between me and the horse...which I do. Comfort to a person or a horse is individual. If you are frustrated with conventional saddles, I'd not be too quick to write off all treeless saddles as you don't have too many other options.

[JB]

I would not try another treeless, due to the lack of stability. The lack of stability is a huge minus for me, especially on a horse that naturally has so much motion. I also disliked the amount of padding on the saddle itself -- I felt like I couldn't feel the horse at all! There may be other saddles with less padding, but the lack of stability would still remain an issue. I could see it working well on a smooth gaited horse I guess.
Your post makes absolutely no sense ;) There are *treed* saddles that are not stable on certain horse body types. By your logic, having tried one of those would put you off all treed saddles ;)

Now, because of a lack of rigid tree, there ARE certain horse and rider combos, or just certain riders, or just certain horses, where that is not physically (or mentally!) comfortable. Treeless is not for that person/that horse/that/combo.

But the same thing goes for treed saddles.

You cannot go by the generic notion that treeless saddles don't work for big moving horses just because you had a negative experience with (I assume) 1 treeless saddle on your 1 horse ;)

DDB can probably say for sure as I think she knows, but I'm pretty sure there is at least 1 upper level Dressage rider using a treeless (Fhoenix I think) saddle, and I'd bet that horse isn't a dinky mover ;)

If I weren't frustrated with conventional saddles I wouldn't have tried a treeless in the first place. When are saddle makers going to get their heads out of the sand and stop making so many saddles for table top backs?![/quote]

[Daydream Believer]

DDB can probably say for sure as I think she knows, but I'm pretty sure there is at least 1 upper level Dressage rider using a treeless (Fhoenix I think) saddle, and I'd bet that horse isn't a dinky mover ;)



I know there are a number of upper level riders using these saddles in the UK where they were developed...and yes, I'm sure they are big moving horses. My own horses are pretty big movers and very quick/flexible and as stated earlier, I've had no stability issues. Like any saddle you need to girth it up well.

What I also love about the Fhoenix is NO special pads are needed and it has a built in gullet. I can mount from the ground with this saddle if I need to.

[Bogie]

I've owned several treeless saddles and used them on a couple of horses. My Trakehener was a huge mover and my TB ain't too shabby.

My experience has been that different treeless saddles fit different (horse) body shapes better than others. I had a Torsion EL that I loved on my Trakehner (who was broad, low withers, and fairly barrel shaped) but would NOT stay stable on my TB who is more of an "A-Frame". I ride him in a Freeform and it is very stable.

I hated the early Barefoot saddles because I found they didn't have enough of a structure for me and they put me in a chair seat.

I believe that treed saddles do provide more support. It takes time to get used to a treeless saddle and as a rider, you do need more core stability.

For many riders most treeless saddles also stretch their hips in a way that rocks them back and puts their pelvis in the wrong position (putting them into a chair seat). The "twist" in a treed saddle prevents that from happening. I think that's why saddles like the Fhoenix and the Freeform are popular because they have more of a twist.

I don't ride exclusively treeless but I do like my treeless saddles because I enjoy being able to feel my horse's back better. As for my own comfort? If a saddle puts you in a balanced position I don't think it matters if you are riding treed or treeless.

[equineartworks]

I don't ride exclusively treeless but I do like my treeless saddles because I enjoy being able to feel my horse's back better. As for my own comfort? If a saddle puts you in a balanced position I don't think it matters if you are riding treed or treeless.

This is why we like them. They are wonderful for the children to learn to feel the horse and the movement.

[JB]

For many riders most treeless saddles also stretch their hips in a way that rocks them back and puts their pelvis in the wrong position (putting them into a chair seat). The "twist" in a treed saddle prevents that from happening.
Oh, treed saddles absolutely can put a rider in a chair seat! ;) Happens all the time. It's not just about the twist width, it's also about how far back the pommel/twist slope comes, the placement of the stirrup bars, and more. Treed and treeless saddles both have those issues :)

[Bogie]

Agree absolutely.

Most people don't understand that the treeless saddles cause that because of the lack of twist.

Of course, an equal number of them probably don't understand how much the position of the stirrup bars can impact their position, either :lol:.

As someone with a super long femur, I've had to become an expert at figuring out how a saddle's balance point works because so few of them work for me!

Oh, treed saddles absolutely can put a rider in a chair seat! ;) Happens all the time. It's not just about the twist width, it's also about how far back the pommel/twist slope comes, the placement of the stirrup bars, and more. Treed and treeless saddles both have those issues :)

[Tom Bloomer]

I'm a fan of the Wade tree myself. It hangs your leg under you and keeps your pelvis aligned no matter how much bounce your horse has.

Picked this one up last spring. (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_051109_003.JPG)

[danosaur]

not to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me the point of a treeless saddle?

[Daydream Believer]

not to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me the point of a treeless saddle?

Trees are the internal frames of standard saddles and it is imperative that they fit perfectly or they can cause damage/pain to a horse's back. Some horses, for various reasons be it shape, breed, weight, sensitivity, etc... cannot be easily fitted by a treed saddle. A treeless saddle just does not have the wooden frame inside it so it makes it more comfortable for those horses.

Supposedly treed saddles distribute weight better but studies conducted with treed and treeless saddles do not support that theory.

[Bluey]

Would like to see any studies on that and that they don't support (pun intended) the theory that saddles with trees spread the weight over a larger surface.

I would say that common sense alone should win there, no studies needed.

Now, what is best for the horse's back, that I am sure may depend on more than just if a saddle has or lacks a tree.

One consideration, treed saddles generally are not sitting against the horse's back, but have padding under the tree and added saddle pads.

[matryoshka]

A good treeless saddle dealer will tell you to try any treeless you are looking at for 10 days and at least 20 miles before deciding to buy. A good dealer has saddles that go from trial to trial, and then you buy the model you want new. They'll tell you that not all treeless saddles fit every horse, and that not all riders like the same shape and feel of saddle. Don't buy anything without riding in it first.

Poorly fitting saddles damage horse's backs. The reason I wanted a treeless saddle is that I was riding a variety of horses and didn't have the budget for several treed saddles that fit each one appropriately. Based on advice I got here, I purchased a Bob Marshall Sport saddle that works on all but the most prominent withers. I invested in a good pad appropriate for my weight and the mileage I ride (Skito will work with you on that). I also like that the stirrups attach low to better spread my weight across the horse's back when riding two-point. I've ridden Haflingers, Icies, and Arabians in it, as well as TB's, WB's, and Friesians. Quite the range of horse sizes for one saddle.

The horse's movement is a non-issue for me in saddle selection. Who cares if they move big or small? That has little to do with the saddle and doesn't even enter into the equation when considering a saddle for a particular horse. Back shape, shoulder movement, back length? Yes. Type/size of movement? No.

I also really like the Sensation Ride saddles if you want something that feels like a treed saddle. They are not for high-withered horses. GoTheDistance foxhunts in a Sensation Ride.

[JB]

FYI, for the OP's interest, there is at least 1 saddle (a Balance saddle) and maybe more (maybe one of the Black Country models?) that don't have anything rigid below the stirrup bar, or have *very* short tree points. That eliminates the shoulder fit issues that are sometimes one of the bigger fitting problems.


The horse's movement is a non-issue for me in saddle selection. Who cares if they move big or small? That has little to do with the saddle and doesn't even enter into the equation when considering a saddle for a particular horse. Back shape, shoulder movement, back length? Yes. Type/size of movement, no.
I know at least 2 people who had to send their treeless saddle back because they couldn't ride the bigger movement it allowed the horse to express :( That says a few things, doesn't it :no:

And there are those who don't feel secure enough with the "instability" of a treeless saddle on their already big-moving horse. That's fine, they need the structure of a treed saddle, and as long as it's a good fit for the horse...

I also really like the Sensation Ride saddles if you want something that feels like a treed saddle. They are not for high-withered horses. GoTheDistance foxhunts in a Sensation Ride.
Great point here that hopefully the OP has caught onto now - just like treed saddles, there are a variety of shapes in the treeless models, and not all of them, not by a longshot, are for every body type of horse. My Ansur Hunter model was a great fit for my very prominently-withered TB mare.

[matryoshka]

Yep, the rider has to get a saddle that fits them and the horse, and security in the saddle is a valid concern.

I know plenty of people who love riding western because they like the security the horn offers. That's great for them, and I think that is a smart choice if one is worried about security. I know some western riders who refer the English saddles as "banana peels." They are awesome riders but didn't like the feel or balance of an English saddle. I never see those guys grabbing the saddle horn. ;)

Me? I now have to go with a western-style saddle because of injury. I cut the darn horn off, because on my TB, it was dangerous. Didn't realize there was a steel core in the horn, but the hack saw eventually cut through. Had to use a treed saddle with him because there isn't a treeless made (and very few treed saddles) that would clear those withers. Wide back below the withers, though. Tough to find a good fit and ended up having to get very creative with padding. Joyce Harmon's book on saddle fit is awesome.

I just like to be clear about what is a saddle issue and what is a rider issue and not blame saddles for rider issues.

I'm going back to a treed saddle for a while because I need the support it offers to me. My stupid hip is deteriorating and it is getting painful to ride, not to mention that my leg stops working after a while. Sigh. I love my BMSS. If the Abetta western (the one I sawed the horn off) doesn't work, I might have to give up riding. Still want to try side saddle, but I think I need an off-side one, and they aren't common, so it is hard to try one out to see if it'll work for me. Ugh.

(Sorry, I'm not feeling PC today.)

[Guilherme]

not to hijack the thread, but could someone explain to me the point of a treeless saddle?

The purpose of the treeless saddle is, according to most use justifications I've read, to address fit issues. Either a "hard to fit" horse or to permit one saddle to be used for multiple horses.

Some say it gives a superior ability to "feel" the movement of the horse.

It's likely that both these things are true. But the Great Virtue of the treeless saddle (its flexibility) is also its Great Vice: a failure to effectively distribute weight (and the risk of low poor stability that started this discussion).

Saddle fit is always good for anything from a modest discussion to a bare knuckle donnybrooke to a full fledged train wreck. The reason is that few people understand the True Secret of Saddle fit: saddles don't "fit" horses, they "accomodate" them.

Most "fitting" systems are static. Somebody stands a horse up, puts a saddle on, and then tries to fiture out if there is pinching, bridging, spine pressure, etc. If none of these things is evident the "fit" is declared right and everybody moves on down the road. And the horse ends up with a sore back or the rider ends up with perfomrance issues or something else. Occasionally there are no subsequent problems.

Horses' backs are dynamic. When a horse moves it changes shape. The more it moves the more it changes. So a fit that is "perfect" while static will, by definition, be imperfect while in motion. With a rigid tree this is where the padding system gets to do its job, absorbing and distributing the stresses that come from the dynamic back.

A better way to evaluate fit is to ride the horse for an extended period of time in a new saddle, noting the performance of the horse. It it's good then it's likely that the saddle is doing its job. You get some "confirmation" when the saddle is pulled you look at sweat patterns, but the "proof of the pudding" is that the horse did its job today and can do it again tomorrow.

No saddle fit will ever be "perfect" (except for fleeting moments). A well made, well fitted saddle with accomodate a very large range of equine motion.

I've attended a number of clinics over the years and one thing I've seen time and time again is the clinician pulling a poorly fitting saddle and replacing it with a correctly fitting one. One common thread in this is that the poorly fitted saddles are often the "$400 tack shop specials." The riders who then get to experience a really well made saddle are horrified to learn how much a good saddle costs (generally upwards of $750 used, English or Western). In saddles, as in most things, quality doesn't cost, it pays. If the rider puts that el cheapo saddle back on the horse then the progress made with good saddle will quickly dissipate and the old performace and behavior issues (that drove the rider to the clinic in the first place) will come back.

I'm not a fan of the treeless saddle. I've yet to see one that did its job correctly. I am a fan of riders learning the basics of good saddle fit. One excellent source is a tape made by David Genedek. His URL is http://www.aboutthehorse.com/ I don't endorse his saddles (I ride a Stubben Scout) but the tape is excellent.

The most important item on a horse's back is the rider's brain. This bit of wisdom is often lost in these discussions. A wise rider will learn about saddle fit, but also understand that poor riding techinque is going to sore up a horse no matter what's under their butt.

So rider skill is really more important than saddle fit. :)

G.

[Tom Bloomer]

Thanks for that great post G. Thoughtful and informative.

[matryoshka]

Great post G. Sums it up nicely.

Has anybody tried the saddle pad that essentially has a type of putty in it that gives you an indication of where the pressure points under the saddle lie? If so, what did you think? When I was having so much trouble finding a saddle to work for both the high-withered TB and me, I would like to have tried this to see what it looked like after riding in different saddles.

[GreenTeaLeaves]

Your post makes absolutely no sense ;) There are *treed* saddles that are not stable on certain horse body types. By your logic, having tried one of those would put you off all treed saddles ;)



Seriously, any reasonable person would see that my post makes perfect sense. Do you think I'm going to get a different horse so that I can go treeless? Now *that* makes no sense. :lol: (btw, all the smiling winking faces don't really cover up your condescending tone)

DDB, do you really think that I started this thread because I wanted someone to talk me into a treeless after all? I was just curious about others' opinions, since the performance of the one that I tried was pretty appalling. The saddle was girthed up tight, and I have a seat with decent balance. And yes, I also realize that there are people who like their treeless saddles. I'm certainly not going to try to convince you to get a saddle with a tree, if your horse is happy with the Fhoenix!

Guilherme, I too appreciated your post. I will probably end up learning how to fit saddles myself. Seriously. More power to the consumer!

[Foxyrab]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;4556544Has anybody tried the saddle pad that essentially has a type of putty in it that gives you an indication of where the pressure points under the saddle lie?[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to the Port Lewis Impression Pad? I purchased one a few years back, and have found it to be very helpful. One major concern (at least for me) was that if you're using the Impression Pad with a treeless saddle, the pad does not do an effective job of showing whether or not you have sufficient spinal clearance.

[danosaur]

ah! thank you. I was under the impression that it was merely a glorified bareback pad, but it seems this is not the case.

[Invite]

Ted the Peep Ho is ridden in an Ansur. I called his mom earlier today b/c I'm semi saddle shopping and I knew she and Ted loved their saddle. I guess Ansur has come out with a more stabilizing model, as in stabilizing the rider and giving the rider more support. Ted's mom thought the new model might be the best bet for me since I'm disabled.

[Daydream Believer]

DDB, do you really think that I started this thread because I wanted someone to talk me into a treeless after all? I was just curious about others' opinions, since the performance of the one that I tried was pretty appalling.

Well, it would seem to me after that comment that you started the thread not to get unbiased opinions and pros and cons on the saddles but rather to find others to bash treeless saddles and agree with you since you had already decided they all suck from your one ride in one model... Whatever...Sorry I bothered to share my positive experiences since that is not what you were looking for. :rolleyes:

[matryoshka]

Are you referring to the Port Lewis Impression Pad? I purchased one a few years back, and have found it to be very helpful. One major concern (at least for me) was that if you're using the Impression Pad with a treeless saddle, the pad does not do an effective job of showing whether or not you have sufficient spinal clearance.Yes, I think that is it, though I didn't remember it being called a Port Lewis. Maybe there is more than one manufacturer out there.

To try it with a treeless saddle, you'd have to put it under the saddle pad, since the saddle pad is what helps the rider clear the spine. In general, treeless saddles are not recommended for horses with very high withers or prominent spine. As much as I like my BMSS, if I have doubts about whether it will work on a particular horse's back, I won't use it. I've never tried it on a horse with a prominent spine, and wouldn't even attempt it.

I would love to have a Port Lewis impression pad, though, so I could check the fit of the saddles periodically. As I go back to a saddle with a western tree, I've got to worry more about saddle fit again. It was nice to be worry free (and no sore backs, either--I check before and after every ride). Well, my little Arab mare did get a sore back during one trail ride, but she was throwing her head around, jigging, and engaging in behavior that isn't good for her back anyway. Could have been the saddle, could have been that she hurt herself by staying inverted for miles--she is a work in progress. Soreness went away in a few days and hasn't recurred.

[Daydream Believer]

ah! thank you. I was under the impression that it was merely a glorified bareback pad, but it seems this is not the case.

Some of the earlier models were not much more than bareback pads...that is true... but there have been a lot of improvements in treeless saddles since those earliest models. Most have a saddle form, structure, weight bearing distribution, and some even a twist. A Fhoenix is not truly without a "tree." It has a piece in the cantle that holds the shape of the saddle and maintains the gullet and spinal clearance. It does not however have a tree in the normal sense so is considered a treeless saddle by most but more accurately you would call it a partial tree.

Treeless saddles have been tested by the Fhoenix manufacturer, Heather Moffet, as well as several treed saddles for weight distribution. The treeless models tested did not create pressure points. The worst saddles tested for creating pressure points were the close contact dressage treed models that are so popular now. I don't have a link to that testing discussion and will try to find it. It was posted at one point on UDBB by Heather herself.

All saddles, as I said earlier, are not created equal in design or quality...so most likely yes, some saddles, regardless of treed or treeless, will create pressure points and not distribute weight correctly.

[Daydream Believer]

Y
To try it with a treeless saddle, you'd have to put it under the saddle pad, since the saddle pad is what helps the rider clear the spine.

Not on all treeless models. Some do have a built in gullet and do not require a special pad for spinal clearance. Fhoenix and all of the Enlightened Equitation models have gullets, some of the newer Ansurs, and the newer Barefoot models have gullets as well.

Read this linked page. They discuss the testing done on these saddles with the Port Lewis Impression pad as well as the Pilance pressure testing system.

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/faq.htm

[matryoshka]

Not on all treeless models. Some do have a built in gullet and do not require a special pad for spinal clearance. Fhoenix and all of the Enlightened Equitation models have gullets, some of the newer Ansurs, and the newer Barefoot models have gullets as well.

Read this linked page. They discuss the testing done on these saddles with the Port Lewis Impression pad as well as the Pilance pressure testing system.

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/faq.htmGood to know. I've never looked into those since I can't ride in that style saddle anymore. Thanks for the correction. It sounds like they are using panels to help spread out the the rider's weight. It seems this idea could also be incorporated into the pads used with other treeless models.

[JB]

You can actually make your own Port Lewis Impression pad if you can get the right materials :) I don't have the link handy, but it's probably not hard to find.

[Daydream Believer]

Good to know. I've never looked into those since I can't ride in that style saddle anymore. Thanks for the correction. It sounds like they are using panels to help spread out the the rider's weight.

No problem! I just wanted to make sure folks realized that the gullet (or lack of one) is not an issue in all treeless saddles...nor is weight distribution.

I've had one of these Fhoenix saddles for over 3 years now and have ridden treeless over 5 years. I haven't injured a horse yet with them and have not found a horse yet that I could not ride with it. That ranges from a draft cross to an Arab to my own Spanish horses. The draft cross did need a crupper but nothing would stay in place on her back. It was flat as a table with no withers. :yes:

[matryoshka]

I like to ride with a fairly loose girth, so I routinely use a breast plate and crupper on all but high withered horses. Don't want the saddle slipping forward and back on the hills.

[Guilherme]

The "Port Lewis system" is problematical as it looks to me like a "static fit" system. If that is the case then it might help to detect "hard" spots (worn padding, shifted padding in English saddles, discrepancies in construction, etc.) but once an impression is made, it's made. Whether or not it tells you anything useful is an open question.

Some folks were hawking a wireless pressure sensing system (Ray Miller, a farrier from WI was one). That's a bit more interesting as you would get a "real time" view of pressure spots. It had some recording/printing capability, but I don't know how much.

G.

[JB]

Guilherme, you actually ride in the PL pad. And, it is a tool to help figure out where problems are, and yes, it might point out that the "only" problem is the saddle pad itself.

[Guilherme]

Guilherme, you actually ride in the PL pad. And, it is a tool to help figure out where problems are, and yes, it might point out that the "only" problem is the saddle pad itself.

You're correct.

I guess my concern is that once an impression is made, it's made. Diagnosing what the impression means probably is as much an art as science. I suspect the advantage of the "wireless electronic" system is multiple impressions can be recorded and later analyzed, making diagnosis of problems easier.

Mr. Miller charged a fee to evaluate a horse (I don't remember what it was). The system cost several hundred dollars, IIRC.

A rider can, and should, periodically "palpate" their pads, fleeces, blankets, etc. to ensure that they're not developing any "hard" or "sharp" spots. It doesn't take a sophisticated system to do that. :)

G.

[matryoshka]

I don't think it works like that. The putty moves, so it isn't a one-time impression. So the way it compresses without weight will change when the rider sits in the saddle. Then as the horse moves, the putty is going to move away from pressure points that are created while riding.

The trick might be getting off the pad without sitting in the saddle after movement, or the putty will shift back once again into the static state.

For those who have one of these, it would be a cool experiment to see how it looks after sitting still in the saddle for a while. Then reshape and test again while exercising the horse. Hop off without sitting there, and see if there is a difference.

Now I really wish I had one, so I could check this myself.

[JB]

Seriously, any reasonable person would see that my post makes perfect sense. Do you think I'm going to get a different horse so that I can go treeless? Now *that* makes no sense. :lol: (btw, all the smiling winking faces don't really cover up your condescending tone)
*sigh* my winky faces were to help it NOT sound condescending :confused: Your post did not make sense because once again you were slotting all treeless saddles into the same mold because of your one experience. That is all I was trying to englighten you on. Some treeless models are MUCH more stable than others. Some are nothing more than glorified bareback pads. Others have a "rigid" foam padding system that gives a good deal of stability. Some don't have gullets, others do. Some are quite suitable for high-withered horses, other are absolutely not.

I'm not going to talk you into trying another model. I wonder if you'll come here next saying how treed saddles with a banana shape to the tree are awful because they rock on your horse? Or how an A-frame tree is awful because no matter how tight you did the girth, they slide sideways on your mutton-withered, table-topped horse?

That's why your post made no sense ;)

[GreenTeaLeaves]

Well, it would seem to me after that comment that you started the thread not to get unbiased opinions and pros and cons on the saddles but rather to find others to bash treeless saddles and agree with you since you had already decided they all suck from your one ride in one model... Whatever...Sorry I bothered to share my positive experiences since that is not what you were looking for. :rolleyes:

DDB, do and try to get a grip. You sound very childish.

[Nanerpus]

While I did not like my Fhoenix for reasons I explained, I will say I sat in my friend's Western treeless saddle that she shows in and it was very comfortable and I never would have known looking at it.

[Daydream Believer]

DDB, do and try to get a grip. You sound very childish.

Really? Coming from you, that is a complement. :lol: It's obvious you are just trolling. You need to get a life.